1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,220 hey scott welcome to the podcast thanks for having me on happy to be here and i'm not going to 2 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:12,100 mispronounce your surname which you just told me offline beforehand so no i often just keep it to 3 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:17,580 first names actually so that's cool um okay so scott i'm going to start here very broad question 4 00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:24,720 what are you most excited about working on currently oh uh maybe two-part answer there 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,460 I'm working on a second book 6 00:00:27,460 --> 00:00:28,400 my second book 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,700 which has been keeping me really busy 8 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:32,860 and you know 9 00:00:32,860 --> 00:00:34,900 I don't consider myself an author 10 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,420 it's a hobby pet project thing 11 00:00:37,420 --> 00:00:38,520 but 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,400 my evenings and weekends go there 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,600 and I'm more than happy to 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,560 so that should be ready 15 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,980 for a release in early April 16 00:00:47,980 --> 00:00:49,380 is kind of like where I'm targeting 17 00:00:49,380 --> 00:00:50,800 really exciting 18 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,560 it's another Bitcoin book 19 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:53,920 but quite a bit different 20 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,160 than the Dow of Bitcoin, which I put out just about two years ago. And yeah. And then on the 21 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:05,600 other side of my day of job, in my daily life, I'm plugging away at Block Rewards here. We build 22 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,660 software trying to figure out new ways to pay people in Bitcoin. Awesome. Okay. So 700 different 23 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:19,040 tangents we could potentially go in. But I'm glad that you mentioned writing books. I always try to, 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,820 if someone I have on the podcast has written a book, 25 00:01:21,940 --> 00:01:23,680 I always try and read the whole thing 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,840 before I speak to them and record a conversation. 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,040 And I'm at like Kindle 92% of the Dow of Bitcoin. 28 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:32,780 Like I'm so close, but I haven't quite finished it. 29 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,140 But I love when I come across a, 30 00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:38,360 and this is true with everyone, 31 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:39,700 like everyone's life is different. 32 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,120 And we all stumble across this thing called Bitcoin 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,900 and we have a different lens on it. 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:44,660 And it's like, ah, 35 00:01:45,140 --> 00:01:46,940 hadn't thought about it from that perspective before. 36 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:53,680 I had no idea that that field even existed as a form of theory or study or philosophy or life. 37 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:04,040 And so Taoism, as I read your book, The Tao of Bitcoin, was something like, whoa, I actually realized in my lifetime I've given almost zero attention to this. 38 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,020 So what I'd love to know is like, how did you even get into that in the first place? 39 00:02:09,260 --> 00:02:13,280 And you touched on it a little bit in the book, but there'll be people listening that haven't read it. 40 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,760 So it's just that came before Bitcoin. 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,860 So it's like, why was that even part of your life? 42 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:21,340 Yeah, the origin story was a book that I was given. 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,220 I played basketball growing up through all the way through university. 44 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:31,780 And as the kind of levels of competition got higher and higher, the mental aspect of the 45 00:02:31,780 --> 00:02:33,500 game becomes more and more important. 46 00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:37,080 I was 20, 21, something like this. 47 00:02:37,620 --> 00:02:42,620 And yeah, just really at that point, I was really struggling in my basketball career, 48 00:02:42,620 --> 00:02:48,860 trying to sort of level out my performance and the psychological component of it. 49 00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:52,600 And a coach of mine gave me this book called The Tao of the Jump Shot, 50 00:02:52,740 --> 00:02:55,580 which is a book about Taoism and basketball. 51 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,800 And it was a book I read a few times and kept a copy forever. 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,160 It really introduced me to the broader subject. 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,280 A few years later, I found myself living in China 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:16,340 and had some really beautiful experiences there with Taoist culture. 55 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:22,000 And then just kind of took up over the course of the next, I don't know, 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,840 10, 15 years between then and writing the book, 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,440 reading books on the subject here and there. 58 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:31,100 And the one that I talk about quite a bit in the book was 59 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:33,480 Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life by Wayne Dyer. 60 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,100 And I was a massive fan of Wayne Dyer. 61 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:39,460 and of that book. 62 00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:41,520 And it's kind of the book on the subject 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,520 that I recommend to anybody who might be interested 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,420 and looking for a really great primer or overview. 65 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,420 They really are timeless lessons, right? 66 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,900 It's a way of viewing our part in the universe 67 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:01,960 in a very, you know, a way that lets people 68 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:13,280 let go of expectations and just try to participate with whatever's happening in their circumstances 69 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:20,180 or in the broader environment of the world we all move through as individuals. 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,540 And I think that it was... 71 00:04:24,540 --> 00:04:30,860 So one thing I think that happens with Bitcoin is as people start to really think about it, 72 00:04:30,860 --> 00:04:36,960 you sort of understand it better. You relate it to your own kind of personal expertise or 73 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:44,340 passionate, you know, passion areas. And, and for me, this was one of those. And I thought to myself, 74 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:49,180 the more I learned about the subject, the more I thought, you know, there's just, there's just a 75 00:04:49,180 --> 00:04:56,160 lot here, you know, there's a lot of like, great information around why Bitcoin works the way it 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:03,920 does because of the, you know, um, data limit size on transactions and all of the, the technical 77 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,460 components. And, uh, and equally, you know, there's, there's a lot to be said for, you know, 78 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:15,000 sort of, uh, fundamental principles of, uh, why things work the way they do, which is really, 79 00:05:15,140 --> 00:05:21,140 which is really what a lot of DAO's ideas are about, right? That there is sort of fundamental 80 00:05:21,140 --> 00:05:28,140 underlying principle that guides all things. And everything in the physical world is 81 00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:36,900 subject to the same rules and subject to this kind of universal law. And it makes sense to me that 82 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:41,280 Bitcoin, like anything else, would be subject to those same rules. 83 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:47,180 It makes me think about, I mean, we've all researched so much when it comes to Bitcoin, but 84 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:55,780 Brandon Quinton wrote a great piece about the mycelium of Bitcoin and mapping Bitcoin as a thing of nature, essentially. 85 00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:58,160 Oh, that's a cool way of thinking about it. 86 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:05,520 And then, as you're pointing out, it fits in very well with how Taoism is a part of life. 87 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,980 to help people understand. 88 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:13,260 Like for me, when I read some of this Taoist 89 00:06:13,260 --> 00:06:17,080 or start studying it and using your book 90 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:17,840 as a way of doing that, 91 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,380 it helps me feel much calmer 92 00:06:19,380 --> 00:06:20,980 because you're immediately like, 93 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:22,360 well, I'm in the situation I'm in. 94 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,100 If I push too hard in a certain direction, 95 00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:26,780 then it's just going to kind of, 96 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:29,000 it's not going to work like I expect it to. 97 00:06:29,460 --> 00:06:32,080 And it's just more this sense of peace and calm 98 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,240 about like the journey that you're on. 99 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,020 and that like you already touched on it's it's actually very helpful you're like oh cool okay 100 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:44,040 um can you think of a like you already mentioned basketball maybe that's a good one but 101 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,560 what is a good example of in your life when you've actually taken this 102 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:54,280 it's a philosophy essentially isn't it like sort of life principles and applied it to a real world 103 00:06:54,280 --> 00:07:01,940 scenario and felt better yeah yeah i mean it's every i've actually right wrote the book from a 104 00:07:01,940 --> 00:07:09,160 very real sense of that. I, you know, years and years later, I just unconsciously practice this 105 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,140 in my life at all times. So this is how I live. So cool. Writing the book is pretty easy because I, 106 00:07:14,140 --> 00:07:20,060 I just kind of have adopted this. And I think this way about things and, you know, Bitcoin, 107 00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:25,740 this is true for me. And, and it's, it's an ironic thing about Bitcoin. I think that, 108 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:33,300 you know and for many people it's like it's the life raft it is your reason for being optimistic 109 00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:40,420 about the future it is the thing that you know people can really like anchor on to for the hope 110 00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:47,560 of a brighter tomorrow and equally like there is people who you know bitcoin is the thing that 111 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:54,540 keeps them up at night it is the thing that uh can't it's the pot that can't boil fast enough 112 00:07:54,540 --> 00:08:02,860 right it's the uh it's the thing that just won't go away yeah anxiety frustration you know peter 113 00:08:02,860 --> 00:08:09,280 schiff and it's and it's it's it's all of those things and it's none of those things which is 114 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:16,120 actually a another really kind of like taoist idea where what people are experiencing is an 115 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,580 internal thing you know bitcoin doesn't do anything it doesn't it's it's neither the hope beacon or 116 00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:29,060 the source of frustration, right? These are something someone is kind of like unconsciously 117 00:08:29,060 --> 00:08:35,700 choosing to experience in a very personal way. And yeah, so I think these lessons were helpful 118 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:42,140 for me with Bitcoin even, like as I was really learning how to interact with Bitcoin. You know, 119 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:49,040 I think your first, you know, most people on their Bitcoin journey of having whatever meaningful 120 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:57,820 portion of their own personal wealth stored in Bitcoin are kind of like going to experience a 121 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:03,900 new set of emotions as they go through sort of the whatever's happening with Bitcoin's price 122 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:09,940 could be that you bought just before it went up a lot and you get to experience like the ecstasy, 123 00:09:10,940 --> 00:09:16,460 the feeling smarter than everyone, greed, whatever. Great set of feelings. 124 00:09:16,460 --> 00:09:24,860 I know people who bought the top. There's the same number of people who bought the bottom, 125 00:09:24,860 --> 00:09:30,620 bought the top. And then they had to then sit for a year or three years or whatever. 126 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:38,540 It was crushing feeling of feeling like an idiot. This is the one time Bitcoin actually died. Now 127 00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:45,260 I've really screwed myself and my future. And, you know, it's, uh, again, it's, it's just, it 128 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:52,940 doesn't behave in a way like the individual person doesn't matter to Bitcoin. It's a, it's like this 129 00:09:52,940 --> 00:10:00,380 impartial, it's a, it's like a force of nature. And, and I think that, you know, so there's some 130 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:05,380 some of these ideas or the teachings, the tools are, 131 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,440 does, you know, help people retain a certain perspective 132 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,480 in the face of sort of like, 133 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,240 whether things are going really great or bad, 134 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,380 like it's a little bit of like, you know, 135 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:23,960 just sitting with yourself and you know, 136 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,040 what's really changed. 137 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,500 You know, I talk about this in the book, like, you know, 138 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,760 if you have a Bitcoin and it's worth a hundred thousand 139 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,080 or it's worth 10,000. 140 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,740 No, what has really changed? 141 00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:35,940 It's like, you still have the Bitcoin. 142 00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:39,080 So what's changed is your perception, your perspective, 143 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,040 maybe your ability to sell that Bitcoin 144 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,080 and buy other stuff with it. 145 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,880 You know, it's not entirely nothing, 146 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,420 but a lot of these things are self-imposed. 147 00:10:48,420 --> 00:10:52,700 And yeah, so Daoism I think is, has been for me, 148 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:55,300 like an invaluable toolkit 149 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,480 for all of the different challenges you meet in life. 150 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,060 and creating perspective and staying grounded 151 00:11:03,060 --> 00:11:07,600 and just thinking about the bigger picture. 152 00:11:08,780 --> 00:11:10,300 There was a section in your book 153 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:11,560 where you touched briefly on 154 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:13,900 what must have been your fiat career. 155 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,900 And I think you were talking about doing 156 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:18,600 enterprise software sales or something like that. 157 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,080 Forgive me, I don't remember exactly. 158 00:11:20,260 --> 00:11:23,820 But the reason it struck me was the idea 159 00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:27,120 of being a sales-focused or performance-focused position. 160 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,440 and I used to be a broker for many years in the shipping industry. 161 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,600 And when you hammer it too hard, you get burnt out. 162 00:11:36,020 --> 00:11:36,880 It's super simple. 163 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,440 And all you're trying to do is beat the guy in the high-rise tower 164 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,520 across the road, really, like all yourself. 165 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:48,440 And the idea that you were able to fulfill that job 166 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,680 with a kind of Taoist lens of like just basically 167 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,660 just not pushing crazy hard and allowing other people to come to you 168 00:11:56,660 --> 00:12:03,280 and you're probably very very effective at that um and it's a really almost contrarian insight to 169 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:09,300 what the default position is in someone at least if i was to use my experience it's like it's 170 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:14,220 basically the faster and the harder you go the more you win and in my experience when i looked 171 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:19,240 20 years ahead of me i was like i don't want to be that guy um and i left and i took a different 172 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:25,360 route but um how did that i mean did that make a big difference essentially when you're and even 173 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,240 now when you're building your business, like how you approach 174 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,520 everyday decisions, how you're dealing with customers, they're 175 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,520 dealing with suppliers, it must affect everything. And it's 176 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,080 fascinating to think through. 177 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,140 Yeah, totally. And I think that those that that particular lesson 178 00:12:40,580 --> 00:12:44,300 was really the one that I became most familiar with when I was 179 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:48,720 playing basketball, and sport was a great study of like, you 180 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,120 know, when you're trying too hard. 181 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,800 You know, when you're really, you just don't hit it properly. 182 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:54,840 You just can't. 183 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:55,440 Yeah. 184 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:56,400 Yeah. 185 00:12:56,420 --> 00:12:59,320 You have to let the game come to you, you know, whatever the game is. 186 00:12:59,400 --> 00:12:59,620 Right. 187 00:13:00,580 --> 00:13:07,920 And, you know, and I think any, you know, business is the same and the reverse is true. 188 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:08,200 Right. 189 00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:13,040 It's not only about sitting around doing nothing and trying to let things come to you. 190 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,680 And that's a great recipe for failure. 191 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,020 But, you know, it's the same recipe as trying too hard. 192 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,520 You know, the harder you try, sometimes the worse you can make things. 193 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:22,820 Right. 194 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:30,700 I think that, so yeah, I think that, you know, how I approach things in general is always kind of the same. 195 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,860 And it has to do with sort of that, you know, middle path perspective. 196 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:40,460 The idea of trying to thread the needle of the right amount of doing and non-doing. 197 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:43,340 And it's just as true in Bitcoin, right? 198 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,340 People, you know, want to, you know, trade their way to more Bitcoin. 199 00:13:47,340 --> 00:14:07,686 They want to you know or somebody buys a Bitcoin wallet and then doesn look at it for eight years and they throw their hard drive in the landfill and then they you know so there somewhere in the middle is the right amount of like you know doing and not doing and 200 00:14:09,206 --> 00:14:14,966 these things this is the thing i think is like all these different lessons have endured for so long 201 00:14:14,966 --> 00:14:20,806 because they're just as relevant now as they were you know 3 000 years ago it's there's 202 00:14:20,806 --> 00:14:25,266 There's certain aspects of the human condition that never really change. 203 00:14:25,586 --> 00:14:29,426 And I think it's why they're so cool. 204 00:14:30,606 --> 00:14:34,546 And that's a great segue into asking more of a historical context. 205 00:14:34,546 --> 00:14:40,646 So for someone out there that hasn't ever even heard of Taoism, where does it come from? 206 00:14:41,166 --> 00:14:43,946 How did it start and evolve into today? 207 00:14:43,946 --> 00:14:50,846 yeah it's a it's a it's a manuscript the original you know daoist teachings were a manuscript of 81 208 00:14:50,846 --> 00:14:58,306 verbs uh proverbs that uh came out of the uh warring states period in early um china something 209 00:14:58,306 --> 00:15:07,546 like 4th century 7th century bc depending on the the record keeping of it and the story goes that 210 00:15:07,546 --> 00:15:21,986 Lao Tzu, who is credited as being the author, was a sort of disillusioned with the state of China at the time and was on his way to adventure into exile. 211 00:15:21,986 --> 00:15:29,706 And just before he left the country, he sort of wrote this as a parting gift. 212 00:15:30,246 --> 00:15:33,646 And the name Lao Tzu, it means old master. 213 00:15:33,646 --> 00:15:39,726 you know, it's kind of like Santa Claus or it's possible this person was not an actual person. 214 00:15:41,146 --> 00:15:48,486 One thing that I, you know, think is interesting about the origins of Taoism, you know, there's a 215 00:15:48,486 --> 00:15:53,306 few things I talk about this in the book. You know, there's sort of an overlap of this 216 00:15:53,306 --> 00:16:02,446 mythical figure that is behind the origin of the idea. And, you know, the Satoshi story is 217 00:16:02,446 --> 00:16:06,166 It's kind of a modern day version of that tale. 218 00:16:07,746 --> 00:16:22,826 And actually the Tao Te Ching, the original Taoist treatise, was in large part a response to a dissatisfaction with governance in the time. 219 00:16:24,366 --> 00:16:25,486 And which is awesome. 220 00:16:25,606 --> 00:16:27,006 It's an amazing parallel, isn't it? 221 00:16:27,146 --> 00:16:27,706 Yeah, totally. 222 00:16:28,426 --> 00:16:29,726 Yeah, Chancellor on the Brink. 223 00:16:29,726 --> 00:16:37,646 and uh you know like a bigger idea in daoism is kind of this concept i talk in the book about 224 00:16:37,646 --> 00:16:44,426 uh reversionism and things kind of have a way of returning to the natural order of the way they're 225 00:16:44,426 --> 00:16:50,426 supposed to be and i think that bitcoin is and i i talk about this in the book i think that in 226 00:16:50,426 --> 00:16:58,606 bitcoin is almost like an immunological response this is a natural course correction for uh a 227 00:16:58,606 --> 00:17:05,606 financial system that has just kind of like gone horribly awry over, you know, the period of 228 00:17:05,606 --> 00:17:12,006 every year or so. Yeah. Yeah. And but it strikes, sorry, Scott, I've got too many things in my mind 229 00:17:12,006 --> 00:17:17,986 here. It strikes me that it's not just a financial system, though, is it? Because the closer you get 230 00:17:17,986 --> 00:17:23,826 to looking at this thing, you realize that the ability to print money like is available today, 231 00:17:23,826 --> 00:17:30,246 it gets into education it gets into media it gets into health care it's like the entire thing has 232 00:17:30,246 --> 00:17:39,986 been warped into these centralized um systems which are not necessarily benefiting the end user 233 00:17:39,986 --> 00:17:47,286 and that should ultimately end up in reversion like nature is so decentralized going back to 234 00:17:47,286 --> 00:17:51,986 that mycelium article it's a good example of it but i love that article by the way yeah it's great 235 00:17:51,986 --> 00:17:57,206 but even like some things I'm I'm thinking through at the moment with like homeschooling 236 00:17:57,206 --> 00:18:04,546 it's like well education used to be decentralized like how does a tribe work well it's not chatting 237 00:18:04,546 --> 00:18:09,146 to the tribe next door figuring out how they want all their children to think it's doing it on their 238 00:18:09,146 --> 00:18:14,606 own and equally like the family itself is a decentralized unit from the rest of the tribe 239 00:18:14,606 --> 00:18:21,286 and yeah wow it's it's everywhere in that sense and so so why was it important do you think for 240 00:18:21,286 --> 00:18:28,826 the longevity of Taoist ideas that Lao Tzu was a mythical figure. Like it's almost important 241 00:18:28,826 --> 00:18:36,126 because you can't kill them or you can't see their mistakes or their failures because that also is 242 00:18:36,126 --> 00:18:40,866 reversion to some extent I guess. You've got to get it wrong to get back to reversion. 243 00:18:42,146 --> 00:18:46,666 Yeah you know I think the same is true for Satoshi and it's important that we never know 244 00:18:46,666 --> 00:18:55,866 who Satoshi is, um, for the same reason. And it's, you know, it's an idea, but if there's a 245 00:18:55,866 --> 00:19:02,926 real person attached to it, it's an invention and that invention requires credit and that credit 246 00:19:02,926 --> 00:19:12,026 attaches itself to the person and, uh, you know, and people who are flawed, right? Like there's 247 00:19:12,026 --> 00:19:19,746 just so I think that yeah in these cases it's like it's just as true for Bitcoin it doesn't matter 248 00:19:19,746 --> 00:19:28,006 you know if it was the NSA or if it was Jack Dorsey or you know whoever it was uh it's immaterial 249 00:19:28,006 --> 00:19:34,626 and I think that as time goes on it actually matters less and you get thousands of years 250 00:19:34,626 --> 00:19:41,006 like Lao Tzu and it really doesn't matter you know the wisdom is beneficial for people all of 251 00:19:41,006 --> 00:19:43,786 the same. And even if we did know who he was, we wouldn't know 252 00:19:43,786 --> 00:19:49,826 enough about it now for it to be meaningful. Anyways. So yeah, I 253 00:19:49,826 --> 00:19:53,886 think, you know, retaining the ideas in the purest form is what 254 00:19:53,906 --> 00:19:58,506 keeps them potent and, you know, keeps the signal clear. 255 00:19:59,906 --> 00:20:04,826 And I then I really like asking this. So we are an amalgamation of 256 00:20:04,826 --> 00:20:09,426 our choices. Like this moment right now is the result of 257 00:20:09,426 --> 00:20:15,746 everything we've ever done in our life. And when you came across Taoism, you were looking at 258 00:20:15,746 --> 00:20:21,326 something and you got value from it and you applied it to your own life. And that is, generally 259 00:20:21,326 --> 00:20:25,246 speaking, how we do everything. You're like, oh, that's kind of cool. I'll take some of that. Oh, 260 00:20:25,246 --> 00:20:28,806 that's kind of cool. I'll take some of that. And you are a combination of all these things. 261 00:20:29,446 --> 00:20:36,246 Do you think there's a, or do you now have a lens upon the world with which you make decisions as a 262 00:20:36,246 --> 00:20:42,546 result. And so how do we pick and choose like where to put our attention or do you know what 263 00:20:42,546 --> 00:20:46,146 I mean? I'd love to know how you kind of think through opportunities perhaps or equally like 264 00:20:46,146 --> 00:20:53,706 when you look at failures in hindsight. Yeah, I mean, I think some things that really stand true 265 00:20:53,706 --> 00:21:02,286 for me as universal that have just become a big part of who I am are approach to conflict would 266 00:21:02,286 --> 00:21:08,946 be one for sure. And, and I talk about this notion in the book and, um, you know, talking 267 00:21:08,946 --> 00:21:15,326 about Jason Lowery's, uh, software with Bitcoin and, you know, the, that same reversion principle 268 00:21:15,326 --> 00:21:21,966 sort of teaches that, you know, the, the fastest way to, to get, find yourself in fights is to pick 269 00:21:21,966 --> 00:21:33,566 fights and and uh yeah so so i i tend to uh you know i tend to think of you know stress scenarios 270 00:21:34,126 --> 00:21:43,086 uh i i treat them with this principle of sort of um non-action you know and waiting to see how 271 00:21:43,086 --> 00:21:50,366 things unfold i'm i'm not usually the person who leaps first uh and and that's been that's been 272 00:21:50,366 --> 00:21:56,526 something that has been i would say like pretty pretty steady in my life for the last however 273 00:21:56,526 --> 00:22:05,806 since however long ago i got that book 25 years and um the relationship with the present moment 274 00:22:05,806 --> 00:22:14,206 is the other one so i just a massive part of the teaching i think is our the the way that life has 275 00:22:14,206 --> 00:22:22,286 evolved in the modern world is really designed to steal our attention and that's what consumerism 276 00:22:22,286 --> 00:22:27,886 society depends on you know we need to feel inadequate about things we don't have so we can 277 00:22:28,526 --> 00:22:33,886 think forwards about things that we want so you know we're motivated to buy those things 278 00:22:33,886 --> 00:22:41,246 to pursue them to feel like uh we're not good enough if we don't have them and that 279 00:22:41,246 --> 00:22:48,626 that distracts us, you know, propelling us forward, you know, and, and the, that same 280 00:22:48,626 --> 00:22:56,846 architecture, you know, leaves us looking backwards at decisions we've made and where we, 281 00:22:57,006 --> 00:23:04,346 where we're, where we are now, you know, and like, um, you know, so we're kind of like 282 00:23:04,346 --> 00:23:11,386 threading this space between paralyzing anxiety about the future and and regret about how things 283 00:23:11,386 --> 00:23:19,266 have gone up to this point and with whatever's left we can um really you know enjoy what's 284 00:23:19,266 --> 00:23:25,126 happening for us in the immediate now and i you know a great example of this is like you go to a 285 00:23:25,126 --> 00:23:31,486 restaurant and you see tables of friends sitting together and everyone is on their phone like 286 00:23:31,486 --> 00:23:33,286 They're not actually talking to each other. 287 00:23:33,386 --> 00:23:41,766 They're scrolling for dopamine hits and looking at pictures of other people doing something that they think is more exciting than the thing that they are doing. 288 00:23:42,586 --> 00:23:42,706 Right. 289 00:23:42,706 --> 00:23:48,346 And this is it's like an epidemic right now. 290 00:23:48,486 --> 00:23:49,766 It's just the way the world works. 291 00:23:49,766 --> 00:24:18,686 And so a lot of the different passages that I chose to put in the book, you know, and this is actually what I think is the most important lesson about Bitcoin and Taoism is that Bitcoin can be, I think, a very powerful way to remove yourself from that chronic, you know, thinking about things that are already passed or have not yet come to pass. 292 00:24:18,686 --> 00:24:27,106 and the most enjoyable experiences that we have are the ones where we are just fully present in 293 00:24:27,106 --> 00:24:32,366 the moment we're doing something you enjoy you're with people you love you're you know somewhere 294 00:24:32,366 --> 00:24:37,906 you've always wanted to go you know that's really what life is right and life happens 295 00:24:37,906 --> 00:24:45,366 in the now and you know our financial system this is like the real you know like what you 296 00:24:45,366 --> 00:24:50,846 were talking about earlier about how it, you know, cross pollinates and creates problems in all these 297 00:24:50,846 --> 00:24:59,366 different systems. Like ultimately it's a time problem because, you know, the invention of interest 298 00:24:59,366 --> 00:25:10,066 was a temporal transaction, right? Interest, uh, sends value through time and it, um, penalizes 299 00:25:10,066 --> 00:25:15,486 those without assets and it lets asset rich people sorry i unplugged my mic there you're 300 00:25:15,486 --> 00:25:21,306 gonna have to uh don't stress you hear me okay yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah so you're on a 301 00:25:21,306 --> 00:25:25,986 great you're on a great run you talk about interest yeah the the invention of interest um 302 00:25:25,986 --> 00:25:32,426 really transfers time from the asset poor to the asset rich right it monetizes time 303 00:25:32,426 --> 00:25:37,826 and it prices time there's a great book i just finished reading called the price of time by 304 00:25:37,826 --> 00:25:44,426 Edward Chancellor, which is definitely worth a read on the subject. 305 00:25:44,426 --> 00:25:53,306 And, you know, when we start to monetize time and treat it like a commodity, you know, we have a finite amount of it. 306 00:25:53,426 --> 00:26:01,286 And we all do, or most of us in some way or form, trade our time and we monetize our time. 307 00:26:01,286 --> 00:26:12,906 when you start to think about money fiat money that devalues intentionally by design 308 00:26:12,906 --> 00:26:21,986 and what that mechanism really does is it devalues the time that you have to trade for that 309 00:26:21,986 --> 00:26:31,086 fiat money and that process really creates a scarcity of time you know we can never 310 00:26:31,086 --> 00:26:39,686 really have enough time and um what i think people experience in the fiat world is a sort of like 311 00:26:39,686 --> 00:26:47,426 ambient anxiety it's a paralyzing feeling of like you know this is what the rat race is it's 312 00:26:47,426 --> 00:26:53,466 it's impossible to get ahead because you know we're all kind of like literally running out of 313 00:26:53,466 --> 00:26:59,406 time as we each of us marches towards our expiry date none of us know when that is 314 00:26:59,406 --> 00:27:09,066 um but you know in on top of that we have to deal with this you know artificial and externally 315 00:27:09,066 --> 00:27:17,306 imposed problem that the unit of you know financial time is being eroded out from underneath us 316 00:27:17,306 --> 00:27:26,346 and so i think this is why uh you know so many people in society feel this 317 00:27:26,346 --> 00:27:32,186 struggle that gets kind of manifested in all these different ways. But the simplest way of 318 00:27:32,186 --> 00:27:39,746 thinking about it to me is the decreased amount of actual time we can spend in the present moment, 319 00:27:40,286 --> 00:27:45,106 you know, where, where things kind of slow down and you can really, 320 00:27:46,106 --> 00:27:53,226 yeah, really, really just savor things. And so, yeah, to me, it's, it's a problem with the price 321 00:27:53,226 --> 00:28:15,611 of time And this is how the most important relationship that Bitcoin and Taoism have is that you know I think properly understood because Bitcoin effectively solves that problem of melting money It it kind of you know solves the problem of 322 00:28:15,611 --> 00:28:24,772 the theft of your time. And if you really have settled in on understanding what the end of the 323 00:28:24,772 --> 00:28:34,371 theft of your time might mean for you, then I mean, for me, it means I spend almost no time now 324 00:28:34,371 --> 00:28:41,591 worrying about my financial future. Like, so any moments that I would have previously allocated to 325 00:28:41,591 --> 00:28:47,671 solving that problem in my mind, I just don't do that anymore. So that's now surplus. I get to have 326 00:28:47,671 --> 00:28:55,191 that back. And the same can be said for things, you know, analyzing, you know, I think everybody 327 00:28:55,191 --> 00:29:01,052 has their moment of like, why didn't I buy Bitcoin when it was $500? Because I had a friend, 328 00:29:01,211 --> 00:29:07,032 everyone has a friend who told them to buy it earlier, and they didn't pay attention. And, 329 00:29:07,151 --> 00:29:11,351 you know, like, we all have this story. And eventually, you can let that go, right? And 330 00:29:11,351 --> 00:29:19,671 doesn't matter the important thing is that you know this is a tool that has solved this critical 331 00:29:19,671 --> 00:29:26,792 problem the theft of your time and i i ultimately think you know time is the most important thing 332 00:29:26,792 --> 00:29:34,391 because what do people really actually try to do with money mostly uh in and buy them time 333 00:29:34,391 --> 00:29:40,951 buy them time it looks different for everybody every consumer of time right um but but what 334 00:29:40,951 --> 00:29:47,931 people are really I think for the most part shooting for is autonomy over their of their own 335 00:29:47,931 --> 00:29:58,471 time oh Scott I love it amazing breakdown and so much of it feels brilliant but to push back for 336 00:29:58,471 --> 00:30:05,832 one moment and forgive me for making this about myself but it's just so real right now um two 337 00:30:05,832 --> 00:30:10,411 things one my wife and I it's the start of the new year we really think about like what what do 338 00:30:10,411 --> 00:30:16,671 we want. And one thing that we find ourselves doing all the time is being on our phones around 339 00:30:16,671 --> 00:30:21,471 our children, like all the time. And it's not just because your phone's an entertainment tool. 340 00:30:21,792 --> 00:30:26,911 It's also a transport tool. It's also a shopping tool. It's also an education tool. It's an illness 341 00:30:26,911 --> 00:30:31,572 tool. It's a tool for everything. So, you know, the child hurts itself, you're on your phone trying 342 00:30:31,572 --> 00:30:36,891 to figure it out. Those are kind of unavoidable, but equally, we're trying to homeschool. And so 343 00:30:36,891 --> 00:30:41,272 we've got a long list of like administrative tasks to be done. And you find yourself doing the to do 344 00:30:41,272 --> 00:30:45,312 list at the same time as when you really, you should be interacting with your child. You're 345 00:30:45,312 --> 00:30:49,931 like, Oh, my gosh, what are we doing? Literally, what are we doing? And our phone has gone from 346 00:30:49,931 --> 00:30:56,592 being a tool that we can use to something that's using us. And we're really going to try hard to 347 00:30:56,592 --> 00:31:00,951 figure out like, well, what are the parenting responsibilities? And how do we dovetail between 348 00:31:00,951 --> 00:31:06,272 each other to like not be in that position? And because we feel like our time is being stolen. 349 00:31:06,891 --> 00:31:11,772 To your point. And the other is this really difficult thing that's hard to shake, which is, 350 00:31:12,572 --> 00:31:16,512 and I've said this before in the past, it's like, what if Bitcoin solves the wealth problem? 351 00:31:17,111 --> 00:31:21,351 You don't need physical real estate to pass to your kids. You don't need a company to pass to 352 00:31:21,351 --> 00:31:26,572 your kids. You don't need gold. You just need to keep this stuff in self-custody. If you have five 353 00:31:26,572 --> 00:31:31,371 kids, you split it five ways. If you split just one, whatever, it solves the inheritance problem, 354 00:31:31,471 --> 00:31:36,631 which is essentially every single family I know has the same headaches around like who gets what 355 00:31:36,631 --> 00:31:38,171 and someone's upset and someone's not. 356 00:31:40,371 --> 00:31:42,431 But it's still so hard to live, 357 00:31:42,931 --> 00:31:43,871 to actually be like, 358 00:31:44,391 --> 00:31:46,332 oh, I've solved the wealth problem. 359 00:31:46,651 --> 00:31:47,752 What do you mean? 360 00:31:47,851 --> 00:31:50,631 This is an ancestrally inherited issue 361 00:31:50,631 --> 00:31:52,471 from father to son, father to son, 362 00:31:52,532 --> 00:31:53,871 for generations of like, 363 00:31:54,131 --> 00:31:55,451 you've got to go do this shit, 364 00:31:55,532 --> 00:31:56,351 otherwise you're fucked. 365 00:31:57,191 --> 00:32:00,351 And I've personally made lots of different decisions 366 00:32:00,351 --> 00:32:02,351 to my father and doing something very different 367 00:32:02,351 --> 00:32:04,772 because I do believe Bitcoin can do that. 368 00:32:04,772 --> 00:32:06,471 But actually embodying that, 369 00:32:06,631 --> 00:32:07,752 It's really hard. 370 00:32:08,312 --> 00:32:12,371 And especially when I look at my numbers on the spreadsheet just posted a couple of days ago, 371 00:32:12,772 --> 00:32:17,651 net assets 45% down in Australian dollars terms today to 12 months ago. 372 00:32:18,171 --> 00:32:22,211 So 12 months ago, talk about that set of emotions. 373 00:32:22,512 --> 00:32:24,731 I was like, I've just beaten hedge funds. 374 00:32:25,191 --> 00:32:26,171 So see you guys. 375 00:32:26,312 --> 00:32:27,451 And I was like pumped. 376 00:32:27,572 --> 00:32:31,871 And a year later, I'm like, huh, that's not such a great thing to read, right? 377 00:32:31,911 --> 00:32:35,471 And I call myself an investor having been looking after an inheritance for 10 years. 378 00:32:36,631 --> 00:32:43,191 it's it's really hard to actually be like no no i'm sorted it's okay do you know what i mean 379 00:32:43,191 --> 00:32:48,171 because you're trying to throw off that that conditioning so have you found an effective way 380 00:32:48,171 --> 00:32:53,231 of doing that perhaps this is what the daoism part really plays so well and it's like actually 381 00:32:53,231 --> 00:33:02,111 just relax mate you know yeah totally you know and yes uh i think but you know we're all still 382 00:33:02,111 --> 00:33:09,792 people right so it's not like i um and i it would be insincere to give the impression that i'm 383 00:33:09,792 --> 00:33:20,292 gonna i'm unaffected by this too uh it's uh guru scott right no man i absolutely have the same 384 00:33:20,292 --> 00:33:25,131 sort of like you know hopes and desires and and that's where i think that the teachings are 385 00:33:25,131 --> 00:33:28,992 valuable and like that book i mentioned wayne dyer's change your thoughts change your life 386 00:33:28,992 --> 00:33:32,072 Yeah, that's all my, I've probably read that book 30 times. 387 00:33:32,891 --> 00:33:34,971 Really? Oh, wow. Wow. 388 00:33:35,032 --> 00:33:38,492 You know, and because you're still the same person, you know, you know, 389 00:33:38,532 --> 00:33:43,772 it's just like people who read the Bible over and over. And, you know, 390 00:33:43,812 --> 00:33:47,711 there's just, I think there's always new things, 391 00:33:48,012 --> 00:33:51,731 new kernels of wisdom and there are old things you can get back in touch with. 392 00:33:52,651 --> 00:33:58,352 And ultimately, you know, like we're all on this individual journey and, 393 00:33:58,352 --> 00:34:03,971 And again, like you're so you're on this like down 45%. 394 00:34:03,971 --> 00:34:09,811 I mean, that's a really personal thing that relates to getting in and getting out of something 395 00:34:09,811 --> 00:34:14,291 or like, you know, it's just like a starting point and it's all relative. 396 00:34:15,211 --> 00:34:22,512 You know, the person who got started buying their Bitcoin in 2013 probably doesn't care, 397 00:34:22,512 --> 00:34:25,512 you know, to the near to the same extent that you do. 398 00:34:28,352 --> 00:34:30,352 It's interesting, isn't it? 399 00:34:30,352 --> 00:34:36,151 Just the different evolutions that you go through, and each is an opportunity to grow 400 00:34:36,151 --> 00:34:37,151 and to learn. 401 00:34:37,151 --> 00:34:42,852 So how you actually apply, because information, and especially now with the ability of some 402 00:34:42,852 --> 00:34:47,032 of these AI tools, like information isn't the problem. 403 00:34:47,032 --> 00:34:49,191 You can find anything you need. 404 00:34:49,191 --> 00:34:55,412 The difficulty is the wisdom, or even the IP, that you've got to put all these different 405 00:34:55,412 --> 00:34:57,032 pieces together. 406 00:34:57,032 --> 00:35:01,032 that's the hard bit and so whatever tools get created in the future it's still going to be that 407 00:35:01,032 --> 00:35:06,532 same problem of like well you can you've got all this stuff what do you do with it and i think 408 00:35:06,532 --> 00:35:13,271 that's where some of this mindset personal development spiritual work is needed because 409 00:35:13,271 --> 00:35:20,791 you don't know how to put it all together um and equally why i find value in podcasts um scott i'm 410 00:35:20,791 --> 00:35:26,392 intrigued to just to move slightly forwards then so you're releasing another book um how much or 411 00:35:26,392 --> 00:35:29,151 how little of the future book would you like to share? 412 00:35:31,291 --> 00:35:33,471 Yeah, maybe not a ton just yet. 413 00:35:33,471 --> 00:35:33,931 Okay. 414 00:35:35,191 --> 00:35:39,532 Yeah, it really is entirely the discussion about time. 415 00:35:39,992 --> 00:35:45,412 And I would say, you know, I am a huge fan of Gigi's Bitcoin is Time. 416 00:35:45,811 --> 00:35:46,912 Yeah, great article, yeah. 417 00:35:47,151 --> 00:35:49,151 Yeah, it was a great piece of writing. 418 00:35:49,892 --> 00:35:54,892 And yeah, I'm kind of like exploring some of those ideas 419 00:35:54,892 --> 00:35:56,872 and trying to take them a little bit further. 420 00:35:57,592 --> 00:35:59,251 And hopefully what this will be 421 00:35:59,251 --> 00:36:01,971 is a very different kind of Bitcoin book. 422 00:36:02,311 --> 00:36:04,872 You know, I think there's been so many great books 423 00:36:04,872 --> 00:36:08,112 written on, you know, macroeconomics and hard money 424 00:36:08,112 --> 00:36:09,811 and all these other things. 425 00:36:10,691 --> 00:36:18,251 This one will be definitely more of a spiritual successor 426 00:36:18,251 --> 00:36:21,971 to sort of what Gigi started, I think, 427 00:36:22,171 --> 00:36:23,352 with Bitcoin's time. 428 00:36:24,092 --> 00:36:24,191 Cool. 429 00:36:24,892 --> 00:36:31,831 What I really like is this idea of, it's kind of like, you know, when the student is ready, 430 00:36:31,912 --> 00:36:38,912 the teacher appears, this idea of consciousness and information being accessible at certain 431 00:36:38,912 --> 00:36:43,032 vibrations. And, you know, when it comes to authoring books, you already mentioned, 432 00:36:43,092 --> 00:36:46,932 it's more of a hobby than necessarily anything else. But it's still very much a case, 433 00:36:46,932 --> 00:36:53,432 regardless if you're like monetizing it, quote, unquote, but the, you have to be at a certain 434 00:36:53,432 --> 00:37:00,552 place for that thing to become reality um so have you noticed over the years then that 435 00:37:00,552 --> 00:37:06,231 if you push too hard to use that daoist framework like the book just doesn't happen 436 00:37:06,231 --> 00:37:13,731 so you've actually just got to let it sit for a bit and at some point it'll be ready um is or is 437 00:37:13,731 --> 00:37:17,671 there much more of a like meticulous process of like i've got this idea okay this is how it's 438 00:37:17,671 --> 00:37:25,032 going to happen it's a funny that's a really funny thing for you to ask I never plan on writing a 439 00:37:25,032 --> 00:37:33,331 second book and had been just noodling on you know different ideas things that I started wanting to 440 00:37:33,331 --> 00:37:42,612 you know talk about on podcasts more often and I was at a conference in October and uh ran into 441 00:37:42,612 --> 00:37:47,671 somebody I know there and she asked me, you know, when are you, when are you going to write this 442 00:37:47,671 --> 00:37:55,072 book on time? And, uh, when she said that it was just sort of like, I'll do it now. 443 00:37:55,731 --> 00:38:03,331 I got back home, you know, after the event and, and started writing and, uh, really cool. Yeah. 444 00:38:03,432 --> 00:38:09,131 So I guess these things just have a way of, uh, happening when they're meant to. And, you know, 445 00:38:09,131 --> 00:38:14,412 six months ago, I would, I would be surprised to hear that this is where I am now. Like it's, 446 00:38:14,951 --> 00:38:21,451 I'm kind of, um, it's quite a, it's quite a bigger book. Dow of Bitcoin was about 50,000 words 447 00:38:21,451 --> 00:38:28,552 and I'm already at 110,000 on the manuscript for this one. So it's, it's quite a bit of a deeper 448 00:38:28,552 --> 00:38:36,992 dive and, uh, yeah. Really cool. So, so, and one more question on books, because it's something 449 00:38:36,992 --> 00:38:43,492 that I've toyed with and I've just never, I've never found to kind of summarize this in a sense, 450 00:38:43,771 --> 00:38:48,791 never actually sat down and done it. I've got a manuscript for a book that I wrote a year ago, 451 00:38:48,791 --> 00:38:54,291 but never edited and never did anything with. And I guess I just wasn't ready. 452 00:38:55,592 --> 00:39:00,572 To any aspiring authors out there, what would be the number one thing that you've learned from 453 00:39:00,572 --> 00:39:10,751 doing this? Oh, good question. You know, I think it's like, it's, again, I would probably say two 454 00:39:10,751 --> 00:39:18,211 things. One, you know, I gained a lot of insight and value from hiring people to work on the book 455 00:39:18,211 --> 00:39:25,691 with me, you know, like professional editors. And so like really kind of honoring the process. And 456 00:39:25,691 --> 00:39:35,831 yeah, I enjoyed the end to end of it and got an immense amount of satisfaction, you know, 457 00:39:35,912 --> 00:39:43,331 when other people ultimately end up reading it and some enjoying it. And, you know, I think the 458 00:39:43,331 --> 00:39:50,191 other thing is that it can be scary to really hang yourself out if they're, you know, you think 459 00:39:50,191 --> 00:39:58,392 they're your ideas to whatever extent that's possible. And, you know, the act of like, then, 460 00:39:58,592 --> 00:40:04,532 you know, putting them out there for anyone else to like or dislike and the internet can be a harsh 461 00:40:04,532 --> 00:40:14,992 place of faceless critics. And, and that's good. You know, like I, you know, now I, I'm glad that I, 462 00:40:14,992 --> 00:40:22,451 that I kind of like took action on that and um I'm excited to get this next one out and see what 463 00:40:22,451 --> 00:40:30,492 people think of it really cool and I like that phrase take action or get action or or because 464 00:40:30,492 --> 00:40:35,912 this is again this is time it's like your this came up in a podcast recently with Rev Hoddle 465 00:40:35,912 --> 00:40:40,932 um I don't know if you know Rev permaculture focus guy on on Nostra I had on he's awesome 466 00:40:40,932 --> 00:40:47,392 but just talking about stacking capital and he has these different forms of capital that he's 467 00:40:47,392 --> 00:40:54,271 working on it's like how can i do two or three or four of them at the same time because time is a 468 00:40:54,271 --> 00:41:02,811 flow and even when you sleep you're spending your time and so how do we figure out the roi for our 469 00:41:02,811 --> 00:41:09,512 time in the most effective way and writing a book is something that just to some people might not be 470 00:41:09,512 --> 00:41:14,352 an effective ROI. It just is not worth it. But all the lists of reasons you just mentioned is 471 00:41:14,352 --> 00:41:20,872 actually that was worth it for your time. And I guess it's that it's like, what do you get out of 472 00:41:20,872 --> 00:41:25,852 it rather than because that's a funny process of design, isn't it? It's like, build it and they will 473 00:41:25,852 --> 00:41:30,631 come do extraordinary amounts of deep market research to know you're solving someone's acute 474 00:41:30,631 --> 00:41:37,711 problem. And it's probably somewhere in the middle is actually the way to go. But yeah, how you decide 475 00:41:37,711 --> 00:41:42,992 to spend your time every day is such a difficult thing to figure out um and scott okay so what i'd 476 00:41:42,992 --> 00:41:49,451 love to ask about now is is block rewards and so it's your business that you're building um how's 477 00:41:49,451 --> 00:41:55,751 that going what's the um the history with that and i'm always intrigued as to like how people 478 00:41:55,751 --> 00:42:13,937 are actually making money in and around bitcoin because it not always very easy yeah It a really tricky thing about building the world the Bitcoin world of tomorrow today 479 00:42:14,997 --> 00:42:20,597 Between the hyper-Bitcoinized world, I want to hopefully be alive to see. 480 00:42:21,797 --> 00:42:25,377 And today, there's a bunch of infrastructure and bridges that need to get built. 481 00:42:25,377 --> 00:42:31,497 and I think the reality is that in the world of today, 482 00:42:31,997 --> 00:42:33,817 the Bitcoin world of today, 483 00:42:34,777 --> 00:42:36,637 Bitcoin businesses are really tricky. 484 00:42:37,097 --> 00:42:38,637 We're still super early 485 00:42:38,637 --> 00:42:45,777 and the general person isn't looking to pay for their Starbucks with Bitcoin. 486 00:42:48,737 --> 00:42:50,937 I think there's a great argument. 487 00:42:50,937 --> 00:42:57,837 we're still sort of like firmly in this store of value phase of the monetization of Bitcoin as an 488 00:42:57,837 --> 00:43:10,077 asset. Yeah. And how long it takes is anybody's guess. So, I mean, the short answer to your 489 00:43:10,077 --> 00:43:18,957 question is our business is a SaaS company. So we have incentive and rewards products that 490 00:43:18,957 --> 00:43:25,597 uh kind of build the same way um you know companies have been using tools like this for a long time 491 00:43:25,597 --> 00:43:32,557 it's just that ours are the first ones that you know create a reward for an employee that's bitcoin 492 00:43:32,557 --> 00:43:41,357 instead of uh you know some other thing and and for that uh tool we we charge dollars and so 493 00:43:41,357 --> 00:43:44,397 So, but it's tricky. 494 00:43:44,657 --> 00:43:45,657 You know, it's really tricky. 495 00:43:45,657 --> 00:43:56,977 I think that as much as we, when you see Bitcoin and it feels so obvious, that's the other 496 00:43:56,977 --> 00:43:59,417 piece I think that is really still super early. 497 00:43:59,717 --> 00:44:02,977 Like it's actually not obvious for almost everybody. 498 00:44:03,397 --> 00:44:04,117 No, no, it's hard. 499 00:44:04,377 --> 00:44:05,057 It's very hard. 500 00:44:05,677 --> 00:44:05,857 Yeah. 501 00:44:06,077 --> 00:44:06,997 And it's very niche. 502 00:44:06,997 --> 00:44:11,157 and 100,000 or 100 million, 503 00:44:11,337 --> 00:44:13,137 however many people really get it, 504 00:44:13,337 --> 00:44:15,757 I think the number is a lot smaller, 505 00:44:15,937 --> 00:44:17,257 actually, than we think it is. 506 00:44:18,537 --> 00:44:20,157 I love that question. 507 00:44:20,597 --> 00:44:22,157 Where are we actually at in adoption? 508 00:44:22,537 --> 00:44:24,537 It's really like some people will tell you, 509 00:44:24,717 --> 00:44:25,977 we're already there. 510 00:44:26,217 --> 00:44:27,157 It's like, no. 511 00:44:27,497 --> 00:44:27,757 Really? 512 00:44:28,657 --> 00:44:29,037 Yeah. 513 00:44:30,437 --> 00:44:31,717 Certainly in my day life, 514 00:44:31,877 --> 00:44:33,917 we've spoken about a bit, 515 00:44:33,957 --> 00:44:35,277 you tune out of all the noise. 516 00:44:35,277 --> 00:44:39,997 and when I ask people and I'm talking to people about Bitcoin every single day, 517 00:44:40,177 --> 00:44:43,717 whether there's someone in a cab, whether there's someone helping you clean something, 518 00:44:43,817 --> 00:44:46,357 whether it's someone who's another parent or whatever, 519 00:44:46,817 --> 00:44:51,097 and most of the time they don't really know what you're talking about. 520 00:44:52,017 --> 00:44:52,177 Yeah. 521 00:44:52,777 --> 00:44:53,957 You know, they've heard the name. 522 00:44:54,177 --> 00:44:56,337 Oh, is that still a thing? 523 00:44:56,497 --> 00:44:57,077 Oh, right. 524 00:44:57,077 --> 00:45:00,097 Oh, I used to buy pills with that like years ago. 525 00:45:00,697 --> 00:45:01,177 Sweet. 526 00:45:01,417 --> 00:45:02,097 Yeah, good times. 527 00:45:02,337 --> 00:45:04,917 But it's a big thing. 528 00:45:05,277 --> 00:45:11,157 and they just don't even really know um but that's very anecdotal and you see other people 529 00:45:11,157 --> 00:45:17,657 talking about address sizes and how many active wallets there are and blah blah blah um it's very 530 00:45:17,657 --> 00:45:23,537 hard to know isn't it so you reckon we're much much much smaller in terms of meaningful adoption 531 00:45:23,537 --> 00:45:30,677 than what others would suggest yeah i i do think and i think i'm with you there yeah i i think it 532 00:45:30,677 --> 00:45:36,937 will change quickly. Um, you know, I think about, and I tell this story a lot. I'm 45. 533 00:45:37,837 --> 00:45:45,737 When I was just finishing high school, that was kind of like the early normalization of email. So 534 00:45:45,737 --> 00:45:52,817 I started college and got my first email address and never checked it, you know, didn't have the 535 00:45:52,817 --> 00:45:59,017 habit of it. Nobody was really using email. It was like, this was the late nineties. And, um, 536 00:45:59,017 --> 00:46:07,357 by the time I was graduated and in the workforce, it was impossible to have a job or a business 537 00:46:07,357 --> 00:46:12,737 without email, you know, and that's what, that's what gradually and then suddenly looks like, 538 00:46:12,857 --> 00:46:19,297 right. Where like, and so call that sort of five years, seven years, whatever it went from being, 539 00:46:19,297 --> 00:46:26,117 you know, pretty at pretty niche to mandatory. And yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of 540 00:46:26,117 --> 00:46:31,717 reasons to think you know money printing can go on for a long time i think we'll be 541 00:46:31,717 --> 00:46:39,977 using government money for a long time but i think that the problem of devaluing money is 542 00:46:39,977 --> 00:46:47,797 you're talking about you know states of consciousness um this is this is an idea 543 00:46:47,797 --> 00:46:54,757 independent of bitcoin that is really i think undergoing a mass proliferation right now like 544 00:46:54,757 --> 00:47:00,937 it doesn't matter where you live uh things are a lot more expensive than they used to be 545 00:47:00,937 --> 00:47:08,717 noticeably life is harder and we you know are getting conditioned to want or have less than 546 00:47:08,717 --> 00:47:16,497 we used to have and that combination of forces i think is a for a lot of people that's going to be 547 00:47:16,497 --> 00:47:21,937 enough to start wondering what alternate solutions might be out there. 548 00:47:23,737 --> 00:47:29,957 And, uh, yeah, I think, you know, at some point people realize it's Bitcoin might make 549 00:47:29,957 --> 00:47:32,377 you rich, but it's not about getting rich. 550 00:47:32,377 --> 00:47:37,937 It's about, you know, solving this time problem and protecting what you actually already have. 551 00:47:38,737 --> 00:47:44,137 And that's, you know, when you, when you have like, you know, email is cool. 552 00:47:44,137 --> 00:47:47,677 It made communicating people a lot easier. 553 00:47:48,397 --> 00:47:54,277 But we're really talking about like a fundamental human rights issue, right? 554 00:47:54,317 --> 00:48:08,157 This is a basic component of, you know, healthy civilization of, you know, people being able to be sane and plan for the future with certainty. 555 00:48:08,157 --> 00:48:15,097 and this is a solution that for a problem that everybody is facing everywhere so 556 00:48:15,097 --> 00:48:20,057 of course people are going to adopt it you know it's it's just uh 557 00:48:20,057 --> 00:48:26,257 yeah i think it'll look a lot different when when when it does so i i think we you know 558 00:48:26,257 --> 00:48:32,517 i think we're earlier than we think but i i also actually am a crazy price bull and i think we're 559 00:48:32,517 --> 00:48:35,317 at like 10 million a coin by 2030. 560 00:48:36,177 --> 00:48:36,317 Wow. 561 00:48:37,017 --> 00:48:38,117 Yeah, and if it really... 562 00:48:39,897 --> 00:48:41,697 Yeah, wow, so many comments to that. 563 00:48:42,057 --> 00:48:44,357 I think it's just this concept of time 564 00:48:44,357 --> 00:48:48,777 is so underplayed, frankly. 565 00:48:49,117 --> 00:48:51,557 I could have jumped on the price tag there, 566 00:48:51,637 --> 00:48:53,277 and in some ways that's where I immediately went, 567 00:48:53,277 --> 00:48:56,697 but it's not about getting rich. 568 00:48:57,817 --> 00:48:59,857 But what you realize is your wealth 569 00:48:59,857 --> 00:49:01,877 isn't the dollar number. 570 00:49:01,877 --> 00:49:16,357 The wealth is your time. And so actually, if you have more options in your life, i.e., I choose to homeschool my kids, that wouldn't be possible if I was very much still in that broking world that I used to live in and on a fiat standard. 571 00:49:17,497 --> 00:49:22,137 That's wealth. That's not on the fucking spreadsheet. You can't see that, right? 572 00:49:22,137 --> 00:49:27,017 I talked through the three key forms of capital, humanistic, intellectual, and financial. 573 00:49:27,317 --> 00:49:35,137 And this is a typical humanistic area where your relationships, your kids, your network, that isn't a dollar figure. 574 00:49:35,657 --> 00:49:37,277 It's impossible to put a number on. 575 00:49:37,457 --> 00:49:45,177 But it's a huge driver of value in your life, in your family, in your potential legacy, if that was a word you wanted to put on it. 576 00:49:46,737 --> 00:49:47,697 Yeah, it's so interesting. 577 00:49:47,697 --> 00:49:53,337 And just to roll back to that, to block rewards, what was the genesis for the business, Scott? 578 00:49:53,937 --> 00:49:58,317 And I love that I always like, sorry, excuse me, I'll finish quickly. 579 00:49:58,537 --> 00:50:10,877 I love seeing situations where there's not necessarily business model risk because it's an existing market that you know people understand the thing. 580 00:50:11,197 --> 00:50:13,017 You're just recreating it somewhere else. 581 00:50:13,077 --> 00:50:17,417 Kind of like when you see a good hot dog in one country and you take it to another country, right? 582 00:50:17,417 --> 00:50:19,177 You know someone else is buying it somewhere. 583 00:50:19,417 --> 00:50:24,297 So as an entrepreneur, there's not as much risk in that area of the business, but you 584 00:50:24,297 --> 00:50:26,737 still have to focus on getting things right, of course. 585 00:50:26,837 --> 00:50:29,037 What was the starting point you came from? 586 00:50:29,717 --> 00:50:31,477 Yeah, so it wasn't software sales. 587 00:50:31,477 --> 00:50:36,097 I did 15 years in pensions and health benefits consulting. 588 00:50:36,977 --> 00:50:41,797 So I was deeply in that world when I started studying Bitcoin. 589 00:50:42,817 --> 00:50:44,697 I was in the class of 2020. 590 00:50:44,697 --> 00:50:52,077 money. And at the time I was managing a number of pensions as a consultant and the Canadian 591 00:50:52,077 --> 00:51:00,297 government started printing money like they did that year. I started studying inflation and money 592 00:51:00,297 --> 00:51:05,697 printing and became, I thought things would happen faster than they did, but I was really worried 593 00:51:05,697 --> 00:51:14,217 about fixed income and the 60, 40 portfolio, sort of all these instruments that had underpinned all 594 00:51:14,217 --> 00:51:17,117 the products I had been selling my entire career. 595 00:51:18,637 --> 00:51:21,737 And the light bulb went on for me with Bitcoin. 596 00:51:21,917 --> 00:51:25,357 And I thought, everybody's going to want to earn Bitcoin. 597 00:51:26,737 --> 00:51:30,937 The easiest way to stack is earning Bitcoin instead of earning dollars. 598 00:51:31,437 --> 00:51:37,037 And so what happened for me is what I think happens a lot of people. 599 00:51:37,037 --> 00:51:44,037 If I was a shoemaker and I understood Bitcoin, I would be thinking about ways to 600 00:51:44,037 --> 00:51:49,717 incorporated that into my business. It's just like you said, the hot dog analogy. 601 00:51:50,997 --> 00:51:58,277 What I think we'll see over the next 10 and 30 years, whatever, is just a Bitcoin way of doing 602 00:51:58,277 --> 00:52:04,837 all the useful things that we're doing now. Everything can't be ported over to the Bitcoin 603 00:52:04,837 --> 00:52:10,677 world because I think a lot of it won't be necessary in the same way. But I believe that 604 00:52:10,677 --> 00:52:17,817 that people are still going to be paid, people will still be working. Um, and so to me, uh, 605 00:52:17,837 --> 00:52:22,257 yeah, it was just, it was just that I happened to come from a background of a world of kind of 606 00:52:22,257 --> 00:52:26,637 compensation and rewards. So when I understood Bitcoin, I'm thinking like, oh man, there's going 607 00:52:26,637 --> 00:52:31,877 to be a lot of opportunity to do some cool stuff here with creating new ways to help people 608 00:52:31,877 --> 00:52:37,737 understand, you know, why they want to trade their time, you know, and this just happened when the, 609 00:52:37,737 --> 00:52:47,157 uh 21 um jack mallard's uh going public in december they had the great billboard in times square that 610 00:52:47,157 --> 00:52:54,197 said something like no man should work for what someone else can print you know and i think that 611 00:52:54,197 --> 00:53:00,897 it just is a massive application for bitcoin is getting people off of working for paper 612 00:53:00,897 --> 00:53:05,397 when you could be working and trading your finite time for finite money 613 00:53:05,397 --> 00:53:13,537 yeah true that oh my gosh the the 2020 story resonates because i mean i first bought bitcoin 614 00:53:13,537 --> 00:53:21,717 2015 but i didn't truly know what it was for a long time and sold some to go on holiday sold 615 00:53:21,717 --> 00:53:27,157 some more because i thought 2017 block size wars is going to kill the whole thing and suddenly 2020 616 00:53:27,157 --> 00:53:34,197 comes around and a stock listed company micro strategy sailors buying it and i'm like hang on 617 00:53:34,197 --> 00:53:37,857 a second what's going on over here and that's what I'd probably call myself as well then the 618 00:53:37,857 --> 00:53:43,177 class of 2020 in that sense that was the moment where I was like hang on a second what have you 619 00:53:43,177 --> 00:53:47,497 owned for like five years I'm like this is the best performing asset you've ever had it just 620 00:53:47,497 --> 00:53:50,757 sat in self-custody there's no one like getting pissed off about a shower because you have an 621 00:53:50,757 --> 00:53:54,577 investment property there's no discretionary manager in between he's like here's a portfolio 622 00:53:54,577 --> 00:53:59,137 of crap that you don't even know what it is it's just you in self-custody and you've beaten 623 00:53:59,137 --> 00:54:03,497 everything else and they're buying it in a stock listed company what the hell is this thing and 624 00:54:03,497 --> 00:54:05,077 And that's what kind of kicked it off. 625 00:54:05,177 --> 00:54:25,537 And I guess just to reflect on if we were both the class of 2020 and we now are on a Bitcoin standard, applying different lessons from our life to this thing, building a business in your case or running podcasts, like that trajectory is probably going to map onto other people that are like the class of 25 or the class of 26 or the class of 20. 626 00:54:25,537 --> 00:54:25,997 Do you know what I mean? 627 00:54:26,277 --> 00:54:29,217 It's fascinating to think how viral adoption works like that. 628 00:54:29,817 --> 00:54:34,017 And absolutely, to your point, all those people want to get paid in Bitcoin. 629 00:54:34,877 --> 00:54:37,797 And probably more than likely keep as much of it as possible. 630 00:54:38,377 --> 00:54:42,757 And that's what I love, thinking about your habits and how your spending changes. 631 00:54:42,937 --> 00:54:46,877 You start to buy stuff that you actually need, not what you want. 632 00:54:47,577 --> 00:54:49,937 And everything changes, doesn't it? 633 00:54:50,317 --> 00:54:50,577 Gosh. 634 00:54:51,157 --> 00:54:53,177 Well, Scott, listen, so an hour has flown by. 635 00:54:53,257 --> 00:54:54,517 Thank you so much for your time today. 636 00:54:55,737 --> 00:54:59,197 Just to hand it over to you, is there anything else that you haven't touched on that you'd like to mention? 637 00:54:59,217 --> 00:55:02,537 and equally if people wanted to get in touch what was the best way to do that 638 00:55:02,537 --> 00:55:10,817 yeah and thank you for having me on it's uh it's been a pleasure i i'm on twitter uh and on um 639 00:55:10,817 --> 00:55:18,897 nostr the handle is the same lantern bitcoin and uh if you're looking in sort of the mainstream 640 00:55:18,897 --> 00:55:23,457 world or block rewards um you can find me on linkedin i'm active on linkedin as well 641 00:55:23,457 --> 00:55:25,717 and at blockrewards.com. 642 00:55:26,617 --> 00:55:26,717 Cool. 643 00:55:27,477 --> 00:55:28,417 And sorry, with Block Rewards, 644 00:55:28,497 --> 00:55:29,317 just very quickly, Scott. 645 00:55:29,457 --> 00:55:31,357 So is your customer the employee 646 00:55:31,357 --> 00:55:33,237 that's getting paid or the business? 647 00:55:33,497 --> 00:55:34,137 The business. 648 00:55:34,697 --> 00:55:34,977 Cool. 649 00:55:35,097 --> 00:55:36,857 Okay, so it's like a B2B play in that sense. 650 00:55:36,917 --> 00:55:37,817 So you've got a business. 651 00:55:38,037 --> 00:55:39,677 I want to start paying people in Bitcoin. 652 00:55:40,057 --> 00:55:41,297 Okay, I come to Block Rewards 653 00:55:41,297 --> 00:55:42,777 and that will help me figure that out. 654 00:55:43,277 --> 00:55:43,457 Yeah. 655 00:55:43,837 --> 00:55:45,377 So we're just in Canada right now, 656 00:55:45,517 --> 00:55:47,097 US in 2026. 657 00:55:48,117 --> 00:55:48,237 Cool. 658 00:55:48,237 --> 00:55:50,537 And we have aspirations 659 00:55:50,537 --> 00:55:52,397 to get everybody everywhere else. 660 00:55:53,457 --> 00:55:54,337 over a long enough time. 661 00:55:54,997 --> 00:55:55,897 Yeah, and I'm sure you will. 662 00:55:56,257 --> 00:55:56,477 Awesome. 663 00:55:56,617 --> 00:55:57,917 Well, Scott, thank you so much for your time today. 664 00:55:58,637 --> 00:55:59,077 Thanks again.