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Honest is probably the recent offer turn debate.

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I think there is so much signal that was lost in all the noise.

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I think it's on the one hand to give some credence to the other camp around the criticism is it's definitely very good to keep the core developers in check and kind of the ecosystem in check around what are the motivations behind changes?

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How do people participate constructively?

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I think those are legitimate concerns.

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But I think where it kind of got lost is all the accusatory nature around forming those type of arguments and the disingenuous takes that people had.

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And on the other side, I think it's also worth noting how to constructively approach developers because it's kind of a different world to a certain extent between those who use Bitcoin versus those who build Bitcoin.

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And ideally, what you'd like to have is a collapsing of those two worlds where there's a lot more understanding between the two sides in terms of we're building this.

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we'd like to reach out and figure out what the pain points are.

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And we're using this and we'd like these type of things to be fixed.

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And I think that accountability factor just gets blown out of the water

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in all the noise that we've seen.

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Do you see notes as a potential hard fork?

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I knew you were going to go there.

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All views expressed by the host or guests are solely their own opinions.

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Nothing stated in this podcast should be considered a specific endorsement

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to make any particular investment or follow any specific strategy.

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welcome to all in bitcoin i'm ubaka i'm excited to talk to you about bitcoin and more thanks for

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having me but first let's get to know you better with my 21 takes on you ready for sure what makes

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you trust code more than people i guess the reliability is probably the easiest i could say

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because you don't have to deal with the human element

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and all the dynamics that come with it.

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If Bitcoin were a superhero, what's its superpower?

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I would say being able to enhance an individual's life

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through financial freedom,

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but also by increasing their opportunity set

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in terms of how they're able to communicate value globally.

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And you, are you the debugger nobody listens to?

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the one patching holes while everyone is arguing or something else entirely different?

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That's honestly, that honestly captures exactly how I am at home. We're five essentially. So

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two older brothers, one older sister and one younger brother. And yeah, I definitely find

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myself a lot of the times being the one who tries to prefer solutions. And then everyone figures it

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out that that's actually the right solution after things have already happened. So.

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What do you watch for when you meet someone for the first time?

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I'd say there are mannerisms and I try as quickly as possible to dig down to find out what drives them as a person.

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How do you do that?

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Through a series of questions, usually depending on the person.

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I kind of let the convo lead to that, but I like to find out people's motivations.

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The weirdest thing someone has said to you after learning you work on Bitcoin Core.

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They were like, are you a billionaire?

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I'm like, no.

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What were the topics of conversation at the dinner table at home?

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Oof.

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I mean, growing up, it kind of varied across my life.

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I think growing up, it was pretty challenging.

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But nowadays, it's really about Bitcoin, how things are going, kind of checking up on me.

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What do you mean by challenging?

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I'd say challenging in the sense that like Nigeria is not a, like growing up, depending

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on where and when you grow up in Nigeria, it's kind of the dynamics are pretty interesting

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of trying to just keep up the whole issues around inflation, issues around school, all

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kind of stuff.

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So I'd say that's kind of what the mix was.

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It wasn't necessarily like all rainbows.

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Did you have like a hard upbringing?

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Oh yeah.

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From, I guess, both sides, like parenting wise and also like just the conditions in

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Nigeria.

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Your personal line between improving Bitcoin and messing with the formula?

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Oof. I'd say it's, I kind of think about it as striking a good balance because you don't want to kind of introduce unnecessary additions that will introduce even more fragility into the system.

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But at the same time, I understand that it's a piece of software that needs maintaining. So it's kind of like a give and take around that.

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What do you think leadership should look like in open source?

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Ooh, I'd say really maybe three things.

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One is definitely leading by example.

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So try to be the type of developer

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you'd like to see in the wild.

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Two is try to be empathetic as much as possible

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to the developers coming up

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or at least the folks you're interacting with.

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And I say the last one is to try to collaborate

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as much as possible.

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I think often so much,

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I see a lot of developers coming up

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with the whole solo mindset

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and open source really doesn't work that way.

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You get further along by being able to collaborate

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and being able to work with people.

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Any examples you can give us?

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Yeah, I'd say examples vary across

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some of the developers we've trained over time.

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We've seen the ones that have gone on

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to contribute like really deeply in Bitcoin Core

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are the ones that often do all those three things.

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Leading by example,

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making sure that they collaborate a lot with people,

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especially in kind of like a mentorship role.

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And also making sure that they are empathetic.

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So a lot of the folks that aren't

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maybe not so nice to people

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kind of don't really make it that far.

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Because if you're not empathetic or if you like working solo, you don't make it?

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I mean, you could really make it if you're a genius.

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It's just that you'll be treated as someone who's not well perceived by the ecosystem.

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It's kind of if you want to be an asshole genius, then it is still possible.

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Okay.

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The one profession you'd never want to do?

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I'll give a funny one and it's no job to the profession itself.

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It's for personal reasons.

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Probably architecture.

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Okay, give me the personal reasons then.

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Yeah, because growing up, I wanted to be an architect.

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And after discovering Bitcoin, I realized that would have been the worst profession I could have gotten into.

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Because it wasn't because I really was driven by that.

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People just said, you're good at math, so why don't you do it?

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Okay.

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What's the dumbest Bitcoin myth you've heard?

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And how do you prove it wrong?

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Well, you have to buy one Bitcoin.

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I typically just send them a couple stats.

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and start having a combo around like Bitcoin, Satoshi's, dollar, cents, narrow, cobble.

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And what part of Bitcoin space keeps disappointing you?

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That is a deep one.

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I see the tribal nature on social media, specifically X.

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I think it's unhelpful on both sides.

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So both from the developer camp and also from the, what I say, the wider camp of folks

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where there's constant misrepresentation of arguments,

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sometimes even just outright poor arguments on both sides.

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And it seems like sometimes there's like a deliberate effort

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to misunderstand the other,

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whereas it doesn't really make too much sense

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because we're all on the same team.

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Why do you think that happens?

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I think for a variety of reasons.

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I won't talk too much around the motivations

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I think that drive both camps.

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I just think some of these platforms

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are designed to enrage people

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and kind of maximize for that type of engagement.

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So I think people fall into the trap,

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whether they're highly intelligent or even just calm folks.

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I think people just get into the whole mix of I'm on this side or on that side.

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Therefore, I don't like you.

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Tell me a childhood dream that came true.

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Wanting to help others, I'd say is the biggest for me.

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And I'm glad I'm able to do so without compromising my principles or being an asshole.

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And honestly, feeling fulfilled.

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I think had I not been involved in the Bitcoin space, I would have probably been very challenged

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in terms of seeing not a lot of hope in humanity.

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Okay, and that was a dream that you had when you were a kid?

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Oh, yeah.

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I've always been, like I said,

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back to the question around the dynamics at home,

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always wanted to constantly be the source of solutions

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around people that I love.

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So this is like maximizing that to like,

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I don't know, like 10,000 orders of magnitude.

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Where do you think that feeling comes from?

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Probably maybe to look at it

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from a psychoanalytic perspective,

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I think probably due to seeing, obviously being able to be an older brother to my younger brother, but also being a younger brother myself, I'm always kind of trying to balance out folks, their relationships and making sure that there's some sort of equanimity in the house.

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Something you've changed your mind about recently.

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That is a hard one.

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I'd say maybe based on some of the convos I had when I was in Lugano a couple weeks back around

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the fact that adoption is not a linear thing. It's kind of a bunch of different dynamics that

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take part or kind of play out in the space at different rates. So things like Bitcoin being

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used as a money, being used as an investment vehicle. I think I used to also fall into the

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of thinking about it linearly, saying we'll have an adoption cycle of being money and then

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investment or vice versa. I think all of that is happening all in parallel, just at different rates.

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The most unexpected thing you seen in Nigeria Bitcoin scene I say honestly the share reception from not so much on the adoption side because obviously that makes sense given how crappy the economy is

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But I think more so around the reception of people wanting to be involved in the Bitcoin space more materially, like developers, even folks like influencers, honestly, taking up like Nostra and some of these other technologies.

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I think I really underestimated how much people would resonate with this ecosystem.

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You mentioned that Nigeria is in a very bad economic situation.

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Could you elaborate a little bit more?

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Oh, yeah, sure.

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So for context, the current FX to the US dollar is around like 1,500 NARA to the US dollar.

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And in the last three years, we've devalued the currency over, I think, 70 plus percent.

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Other than that, we're in double-digit inflation over 20-something percent.

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Separate to that, like two years ago, roughly, after the elections, we had an instance where

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the NARA kind of broke.

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So we had three different versions of the NARA, the physical notes, which were the old and new notes.

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They all had different dollar rates.

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We also had the eNARA, which has been a total failure.

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We've also had the eNARA in bank account.

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So it's kind of ironic.

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Starting up in the space, a lot of the arguments against Bitcoin were that Bitcoin is not fungible, no one takes it.

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But ironically, the NARA is less fungible than Bitcoin now.

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So some of the folks have come to see this, but I see a lot of the dynamics are around like the economic hardships in Nigeria.

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There's just so many things going on and earning in a currency that's constantly being devalued is not ideal for people.

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So that's why I say like Bitcoin really makes sense to everyone there.

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Yeah. Who do you watch closely?

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I'd say.

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And this is more, I guess, on a mentorship level is probably.

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a handful of Bitcoiners and folks even outside of the Bitcoin space, mostly because I resonate

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with those people and kind of the values that they carry around. So folks like Jack Dorsey,

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Jeff Booth, Preston, and a bunch of others too that come to mind. I think the biggest thing for

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me is making sure that I stay grounded, stay humble, stay hungry, also don't get distracted,

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stay focused, and also stay highly principled. If you couldn't do one decision in Bitcoin history,

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which one would it be and why let me take a different approach honestly i wouldn't change

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anything okay i was gonna say craig right but i think sometimes how original yeah exactly but i

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think sometimes it's easy to look at adversity or challenges and be like i wish we didn't have to go

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through this but i think it's a necessary part of bitcoin's resilience and kind of its journey

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into being anti-fragile.

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What's one thing you haven't said out loud,

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but you know you should?

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Wow.

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I'd say maybe on a personal level,

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I'm very content with the set of decisions

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I've had to make over the last five years

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being involved in the Bitcoin space.

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Like truly, I think back then

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facing all those challenges

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and even up to pretty recently,

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it's very easy to kind of get bogged down

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in the weeds around maybe things that you feel you don't have yet or maybe challenges that are

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just coming and being like, why me and all that. But I think I've come to realize that everything

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obviously happens for a reason. And more specifically, all the challenges are necessary

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for you to get to that next phase of growth. So I welcome all that adversity. So for me,

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I'd say being content with all the decisions I've made so far.

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Can I ask which one was the most difficult decision you had to take?

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why am I still involved with this space?

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What still drives me?

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And what are the things I still like to see

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done in this space?

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What have I done that isn't congruent

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with the goals I have

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or what are ways in which I can improve myself?

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I literally ask myself that question every single day.

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Okay, and the answer?

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The answer, honestly, for three of them.

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So I bucket into three.

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So on the first side is definitely

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a lot of constant revaluation around

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maybe the approaches I have toward people or how I say things or even messaging.

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The second one for me around the motivation is to kind of dig deep to figure out whether

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I'm still on the same path that I'd like to be in terms of helping people getting to that

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next phase in terms of providing more developers to the space, all that kind of stuff.

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So those are kind of the answers I give.

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But yeah, it kind of shifts from time to time.

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Some interesting answers.

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Can you share a moment when being visible came with a cost?

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Oh, yeah.

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all the time. Like, I mean, at home, I don't go out as much. I like to watch where I go,

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like even announcing if I'm going to be in a place or not, just because of the perception

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people have around anyone that works in Bitcoin, especially myself. So it's one of those things

234
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where I don't want to put people that I love in jeopardy of being like, you know, kidnapped or

235
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anything like that. So I try to watch what I say, how I say it, especially even around like the

236
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government and things around that. So I'm very, very cautious about how I move and where I move.

237
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How is the government in Nigeria?

238
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It's kind of like every other government, to be honest with you.

239
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:26,520
It's not.

240
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,460
I know a lot of people have this whole perception around like highly corrupt, trying to always

241
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go against the people.

242
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,920
But at the end of the day, the dynamics are felt by everyone in Nigeria.

243
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,280
Like regardless of whether you're rich or poor, like you still feel the fact that the

244
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economy is not ideal.

245
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So I think it's just the sheer amount of dynamics in terms of the government trying to do well

246
00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:48,420
with the people, but also balancing all the issues that they have to, because it's a lot

247
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of dynamics.

248
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And ironically, a lot of the people that always bash the government, whenever they're given the opportunity, they end up doing worse.

249
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So it's one of those things.

250
00:14:57,820 --> 00:15:01,620
How come a cat video gets there way before a remittance does?

251
00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:07,420
um i don't know i think

252
00:15:07,420 --> 00:15:16,600
sometimes it's one of those things where certain dynamics present certain opportunities to take

253
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,860
the four uh the four as opposed to others so it's kind of difficult to tell why things like that

254
00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:29,540
happen in that succession so it is what it is but then you think it should be at least at the same

255
00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:35,940
time? I think it honestly depends on whether people resonate with the tools that are available

256
00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:40,780
for them. Because early on in the space, I think we were very enthusiastic around the remittance

257
00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:45,540
angle and it's definitely increased in terms of the flows. I think that the challenge for a lot

258
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of us was predicting, which I mean, no one should be predicting, but I guess for those that were,

259
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,800
is just because people aren't, let me say it this way, just because there's a solution already for

260
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,160
people doesn't mean people are going to use it immediately. Like it has to still be convenient

261
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,620
at the level of what they're used to.

262
00:16:01,940 --> 00:16:03,360
As a self-taught coder,

263
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,380
how do you shut down a Bitcoin skeptic fast?

264
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:11,180
Honestly, through a variety of ways,

265
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,040
it really depends on the person I'm talking to.

266
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,640
If it's a person that likes to see Bitcoin in action,

267
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,800
then I go the route of just showing them Bitcoin.

268
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,300
All the way from the code

269
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:23,640
to just Bitcoin being sent and received,

270
00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:26,280
all the way up to sending it to a bank account.

271
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Because typically people, unless they see it in fiat,

272
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that they're like, it doesn't exist.

273
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So try that approach.

274
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And for someone that's like numbers driven,

275
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I tend to give them the numbers

276
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because sometimes being in Bitcoin land,

277
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we feel like people should know.

278
00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:39,360
But at the same time,

279
00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:40,860
like Bitcoin is still very, very early.

280
00:16:41,060 --> 00:16:42,140
Most people absolutely don't know

281
00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:43,240
what the hell Bitcoin is still.

282
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:44,640
So doing that approach.

283
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,440
And if there's someone who is more interested

284
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,920
around the human angle

285
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,560
or the human story of that type of story,

286
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:52,740
I typically tell them about all the solutions

287
00:16:52,740 --> 00:16:53,700
that have been built specifically

288
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:55,300
by the Bitcoin majority.

289
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:56,660
So folks from my part of the world,

290
00:16:56,740 --> 00:16:58,320
or even just personally telling them

291
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,140
how Bitcoin has changed my life because it does.

292
00:17:00,860 --> 00:17:04,000
And for me, that angle is really around the fact that growing up,

293
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,840
I had no bank account up until I was 18.

294
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,120
So I started using Bitcoin because right about the same time I discovered Bitcoin

295
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:11,420
and then I started using fiat like with a bank account.

296
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,320
So letting them know that difficulty.

297
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,460
Yeah, after Bitcoin.

298
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:20,040
I have a very weird understanding or dynamic with money, which I think is good.

299
00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:22,180
I'm glad that's how it happened as opposed to the other way around.

300
00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:25,740
So yeah, letting them know like the convenience of being able to hold your money,

301
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,100
go anywhere in the world, still be able to spend it,

302
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,480
not thinking about, you know, the bank is shut down, I can't deposit or withdraw and things like

303
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:40,140
that. So I see those are the approaches typically. Be trust with Jack Dorsey and JC,

304
00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:43,620
what's the most absurd thing you've done to impress them?

305
00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:52,800
I mean, maybe not absurd, but I think just making sure I execute on the mission. Because the

306
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,180
difficulty is with something like BeTrust, there are just so many perspectives around how it should

307
00:17:57,180 --> 00:18:01,920
go. There are also so many distractions and expectations for better or for worse from a

308
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,960
variety of people. And it's very difficult, obviously, to stay focused and highly principled

309
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,680
to do the right thing. And I think, honestly, I can say over the years, it's been a challenge,

310
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,460
but I'm pretty confident in what I've been able to deliver, especially over the last one year

311
00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:22,780
being in terms of you. So going from essentially not too much activity on the BeTrust site to over,

312
00:18:22,780 --> 00:18:26,540
I think 33 grants now given, around 1.7 mil.

313
00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:28,240
Half of that was directly to developers.

314
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,620
And we've gone from essentially a couple hundred developers

315
00:18:31,620 --> 00:18:34,120
to in the thousands now in terms of the developers

316
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,120
in our community.

317
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,740
So pretty happy with how things are going,

318
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:52,160
especially with the fact that we have all the grants open templates things around the developer day that we had last year we going to have again this year So I think we in a stage where we have the right type of structures the right type of I guess mechanisms to internally with the team

319
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,300
Because we have grown the team as well with like the engineering lead, leading VTrust builders, all that.

320
00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:02,620
So we're definitely in a good spot to get to the next phase of like collaboration and being really a model grant organization.

321
00:19:04,140 --> 00:19:05,800
How do you manage to do that?

322
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:06,900
How do you manage?

323
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:08,320
I mean, it's pretty impressive.

324
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,000
I ask myself that same question daily.

325
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,820
But I think the biggest thing for me is a couple of things.

326
00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:16,580
One is being able to put trust in people, being able to work.

327
00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:17,220
Putting the right one.

328
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:18,300
The right people.

329
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,940
I think the biggest challenge for a lot of folks is wanting to do everything by yourself.

330
00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:25,500
But I can tell you that does not scale and is honestly impossible.

331
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:30,400
So figuring out how you can bring in people that are just as driven about the mission as yourself,

332
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,080
but also giving them the opportunity to grow as individuals in that role,

333
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,540
and also giving them the space to also provide kind of solutions for problems that you have.

334
00:19:39,580 --> 00:19:41,060
So it's not like fully top down.

335
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,820
It feels more collaborative to them.

336
00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:46,480
I say another one really is just staying focused and staying principled.

337
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,320
It's part shutting down social media when you know it's getting too toxic.

338
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,680
It's also surrounding yourself with people that keep you accountable.

339
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,980
They're able to call you on your BS if you're starting to veer off course.

340
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,020
And I say really the last one is being honest with yourself.

341
00:20:01,020 --> 00:20:05,320
It's very easy to lie to others, but it's very difficult to live with yourself if you're lying.

342
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:06,120
Yeah.

343
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,000
What's your daily routine, Monday to Sunday?

344
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:17,020
I mean, I try to work as many hours as possible, but now in the last, maybe I say a couple of months, I've kind of figured a good regimen.

345
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:24,920
So I wake up typically around like five-ish, pray either get back to sleep and wake up at nine again or just power through 10-9.

346
00:20:25,460 --> 00:20:27,760
I try to do some exercise now recently.

347
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:29,480
I found that it's a lot more useful.

348
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,460
like starting out as a developer i thought that was nothing i'd ever be involved with but now i

349
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:40,160
figured you know making sure i pray on time things like having that mental clarity giving out like an

350
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,120
hour in the day around the morning times to just think about what i'd like to do for the rest of

351
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:48,740
the week or even the next couple of months so a lot of planning and then typically after like lunch

352
00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:54,940
it's more about getting back to work and then i kind of close off work i guess by you know six ish

353
00:20:54,940 --> 00:20:59,520
roughly. And then everything after that is trying to wind down and planning for the next day or

354
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,440
just ripping on Call of Duty. Okay. And you do that six days per week?

355
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:12,500
Five out of the seven. I think for me, the weekends, especially the last two, three years,

356
00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:18,880
I've always allocated to just free time, making sure that I wind down things that have frustrated

357
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,980
me through the week, kind of revisit it and realize it's not that big of an issue typically.

358
00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:27,300
So yeah, I try to make sure no meetings, no strenuous work in the weekends.

359
00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:29,540
Thanks for sharing, Abubaka.

360
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,680
Those were my 21 takes on you.

361
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,900
Now let's talk Bitcoin Core.

362
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:34,340
Sure.

363
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,880
What do you actually do and who decides you're a Bitcoin Core developer?

364
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:47,380
Honestly, it's kind of a loose term that just describes the level of engagement you have with Bitcoin directly.

365
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:53,760
So as long as you've pushed code to Bitcoin, essentially you technically are a Bitcoin core contributor.

366
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:57,360
Now, the degree to which you're a contributor is kind of where it gets foggy.

367
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:04,840
So it goes all the way from a single change to constantly working on a daily or even on a monthly, all the way up to being a maintainer.

368
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,940
So it's kind of like different concentric circles around that.

369
00:22:08,060 --> 00:22:10,900
So for folks like myself, I'm more around the PR reviews.

370
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,600
So both providing code, but also reviewing most of the work, honestly, I do is reviewing people's code.

371
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,840
and figuring out, you know, where are the issues,

372
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,640
if there are any, trying to help out with that.

373
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,200
And in terms of generally speaking, who decides

374
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,520
if you're a Bitcoin core maintainer,

375
00:22:24,620 --> 00:22:25,740
technically you decide.

376
00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:26,640
Oh, really?

377
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,360
Because all you have to do is, you know,

378
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,900
contribute to the project itself.

379
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,360
I think the bigger question around how it gets merged

380
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,920
is probably where people find it more fascinating.

381
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:37,860
And it's not as straightforward an answer

382
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:39,780
as people would think, where it's like,

383
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,900
you do a pull request and then there's a set committee

384
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,040
of people that go, hey, we like this, we don't like that.

385
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,360
But it kind of just determines, it kind of depends on which maintainer, whoever has merge access.

386
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,880
So the ability to actually merge the code into the code base is really for that pull request.

387
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:03,440
So sometimes it's one maintainer, sometimes it's a different maintainer, depending on which part of the code base you're touching, whether it's the network code or the wallet code.

388
00:23:03,580 --> 00:23:04,700
So it kind of depends.

389
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:13,840
And in terms of the people that are actively giving you feedback, it also depends on who is interested in that pull request specifically out of all the contributors around the world.

390
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,780
Your thoughts on moving the Bitcoin debt mailing list to Google Groups?

391
00:23:21,220 --> 00:23:23,220
You know, I've gotten back and forth, to be honest.

392
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,480
I don't have a well-formed answer around that.

393
00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:31,060
I think whichever one makes the most sense, really, for the community.

394
00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:35,260
I don't have one specific answer one way or the other, to be honest.

395
00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:39,340
You said you taught yourself to code Bitcoin and that memes helped.

396
00:23:39,740 --> 00:23:40,000
Yeah.

397
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:40,320
Yeah?

398
00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:42,420
What memes do I need to study?

399
00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:48,580
honestly it's kind of a shame like i don't think we have as much of a large meme culture maybe it's

400
00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:55,260
my for you page has gotten messed up over the years but going in like 2017 days 2018 it was

401
00:23:55,260 --> 00:24:00,820
very meme heavy i think maybe a lot of the memes now are just like number go up and trying to you

402
00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:06,160
know dunk on others but i say the biggest memes for me on the dev side is really things that have

403
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,860
to do with really quirky things around bitcoin or code specifically like c++ or something like that

404
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:15,040
So maybe just over the years, I've kind of drifted away from that community.

405
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:21,900
But I'd say those are the kind of memes that teach you about, like, you know, making fun of how the compilers work or quirky aspects of a language, things like that.

406
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:22,620
Okay.

407
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,080
So can you meme the block size wall for me?

408
00:24:27,340 --> 00:24:28,900
Oof, that's going to be a hard one.

409
00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:30,240
That would be controversial.

410
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:35,980
But I'd say it's like trying to make sure.

411
00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:37,960
It's hard to come up with a meme on the spot.

412
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,380
But what I would just say is maybe this.

413
00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:53,480
It's one aspect of the ecosystem trying to capitalize on the money side of Bitcoin versus those that still feel like you should stay true to the kind of the goals of Bitcoin and what the end game should be.

414
00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:54,960
And Bitcoin governance?

415
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,400
Or is it more of a meme threat?

416
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,440
I'd say governance, it's interesting.

417
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,140
I've kind of shifted my perspective around governance, generally speaking, with Bitcoin.

418
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:12,420
And then going into the space, there was some naivety on my end in terms of where the power lies with Bitcoin.

419
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:21,400
But at this point, I don't even think there's a specific pocket of the Bitcoin ecosystem that holds ultimate power in terms of deciding what goes in, what doesn't go in or what the trends are.

420
00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:24,080
I think it's there's just so many involved processes.

421
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:30,920
All we have to do really as a community is to make sure that everyone is kept in check, regardless of whether you're a miner, a developer or just a pleb.

422
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,560
What's a Bitcoin PR and how hard is it really to ship it?

423
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:39,360
It's just, so PRS stands for pull request.

424
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,300
And it's typically how, it's just a language for,

425
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,720
or how you describe like an actual change that you make.

426
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,160
So typically any product in the open source space

427
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,560
is either on GitHub or any sort of platform

428
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,240
that allows you to do version control.

429
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,620
So using Git.

430
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,600
And what you do is basically just write code

431
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,380
and you essentially push that code.

432
00:25:58,460 --> 00:26:00,820
So you make an actual request to push that code.

433
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,280
So the pulling part is the project maintainers

434
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,040
pulling that code into the code base.

435
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:06,560
Now, in terms of the difficulty,

436
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,840
I think the most difficult thing is just for people to do it.

437
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,960
I think the biggest obstacle to pull requests really are just contributing in general when you're a developer, just yourself.

438
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,820
What's it like being part of the Bitcoin Core family?

439
00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:21,480
Does it feel like a family?

440
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:23,060
I mean, it does.

441
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:30,860
Over the years, it's been interesting because a lot of the FUD around contributing is that the ecosystem is so toxic, has driven people out.

442
00:26:30,940 --> 00:26:33,620
Maybe there is some truth to that to a small extent.

443
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:41,680
But I think being involved since like 2020, I've seen a lot of welcoming folks that are really OGs in the space.

444
00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:42,800
And I've still seen it to date.

445
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,340
Like, it's not like things have changed.

446
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,200
It's honestly even better, to be honest with you, to be a Bitcoin developer right now than it used to be in the past.

447
00:26:49,260 --> 00:26:50,480
Not because in the past it was horrible.

448
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,180
Like, it's got even way better now.

449
00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:57,440
I think a lot more people are open to mentoring as opposed to just like the solo devs.

450
00:26:58,460 --> 00:27:00,980
So what's the difference between now and everything?

451
00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:02,920
Oh, yeah, like the openness to developers.

452
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:13,800
I think now, especially for developers from my part of the world, I think given all the work we've done with Btrust Builders and Btrust, there are way many, way more African developers that are working in like Bitcoin Core and some of the other projects.

453
00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:28,580
So it's a lot easier to get the hang of things because offline you're able to reach out to people, kind of get mentored on the side, as opposed to back in those days where it was just like a random anonymous dev, which, you know, I technically failed in being anonymous dev, but at least that was the plan at that time.

454
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,400
Do any of you actually meet in person?

455
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,380
Oh yeah, a lot, a lot of times.

456
00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:36,740
And over the years, we've tried to make it a lot more,

457
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:40,840
a lot more of a deliberate effort to connect developers IRL

458
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,280
because it's difficult sometimes to remember

459
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,160
that there's another person on the other side of the keyboard.

460
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:50,860
And for us, it really has helped a lot to get those people

461
00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:52,360
to become a lot more empathetic

462
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,600
and being a lot better at collaborating with people.

463
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:56,540
So I think it helps with the icebreaking.

464
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,580
It also helps with providing that human angle

465
00:27:58,580 --> 00:27:59,500
to developing Bitcoin,

466
00:27:59,660 --> 00:28:01,280
like sharing the same challenges they face.

467
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:17,640
I think having that middle ground for a lot of developers has been really really helpful Have you ever been threatened personally I would say I wouldn call it a threat necessarily but I have had instances where I like

468
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,060
yeah, I need to be a little bit more careful.

469
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:20,460
Can you tell us about it?

470
00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:23,740
I wouldn't, it wouldn't be wise to get into the details.

471
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:24,340
No.

472
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:25,500
Okay.

473
00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:26,460
Has it been resolved?

474
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:27,120
Yes.

475
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:27,340
Yes.

476
00:28:27,420 --> 00:28:28,020
No, a hundred percent.

477
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:28,560
A hundred percent.

478
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,320
What are the measures in place now?

479
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:38,140
for me personally is being a lot more tactful like i said about how i present myself i talk

480
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:46,060
what i say like i'm definitely less um open mouth to say the least i'm a lot more strategic now

481
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:50,520
especially over the last couple years i say the last one really is around um you know security and

482
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,240
things like that so i'm pretty aware of things around that any other measures oh yeah like

483
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:02,180
keeping the circle of folks I'm around a lot smaller than it used to be. I think people

484
00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:06,660
underestimate how much information you give out, especially when you have like a large base of

485
00:29:06,660 --> 00:29:10,820
people that you're constantly interacting with personally. So I'm very, very careful about what

486
00:29:10,820 --> 00:29:14,780
I say to people and kind of the information I divulge about myself personally. Like, I mean,

487
00:29:14,780 --> 00:29:19,720
typically it's not like I'm a party animal or anything. Like regardless of Bitcoin or anything

488
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,920
like that, I don't go out typically, but now I'm even more, I guess, strategic around that.

489
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,760
What's one thing Bitcoiners always get wrong about Bitcoin core developers?

490
00:29:32,140 --> 00:29:40,280
That they're evil or that they're trying to make a crazy ton of money and they don't care about Bitcoin and they don't use it as well, which is kind of ironic.

491
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,120
A lot of the folks I've seen, not to call names, but it's interesting.

492
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:50,840
Like on the one hand, we have quite a lot of folks that you can tell don't use Bitcoin, especially how they talk.

493
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:58,680
Like you can typically tell if someone hasn't used Bitcoin by how certain they are that Bitcoin is such a great technology to use that they technically haven't used it.

494
00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:04,160
Because anyone who has used Bitcoin knows that there's so many issues with it with regards to like UX and the tools that we have.

495
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,060
And it's a constant challenge.

496
00:30:05,060 --> 00:30:09,520
So it's very obvious from the way people critique Bitcoin core developers that they don't use Bitcoin.

497
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:13,000
So it's kind of ironic to critique folks that use it on daily like core developers.

498
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,800
One core debate you wish never took off?

499
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:20,180
I wouldn't say never took off.

500
00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:22,200
I would say maybe it was a lot more honest.

501
00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:24,580
It's probably the recent opportune debate.

502
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,880
I think there was so much signal

503
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,220
that was lost in all the noise.

504
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:29,980
I think it's on the one hand,

505
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:31,800
to give some credence to the other camp

506
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,000
around the criticism is,

507
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:35,520
it's definitely very good to keep

508
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,360
the core developers in check

509
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,780
and kind of the ecosystem in check

510
00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:41,180
around what are the motivations behind changes?

511
00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:44,020
How do people participate constructively?

512
00:30:44,140 --> 00:30:45,520
I think those are legitimate concerns,

513
00:30:45,940 --> 00:30:47,600
but I think where it kind of got lost

514
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,980
is all the accusatory nature

515
00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:50,740
around forming those type of arguments

516
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:52,760
and the disingenuous takes that people had.

517
00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:53,940
And on the other side,

518
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:55,640
I think it's also worth noting

519
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,700
how to constructively approach developers

520
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:00,660
because it's kind of a different world

521
00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:02,900
to a certain extent between those who use Bitcoin

522
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:04,160
versus those who build Bitcoin.

523
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:05,960
And ideally what you'd like to have

524
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,200
is a collapsing of those two worlds

525
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,400
where there's a lot more understanding

526
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,940
between the two sides in terms of we're building this,

527
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:11,880
we'd like to reach out

528
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,680
and figure out what the pain points are

529
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,000
and we're using this

530
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,860
and we'd like these type of things to be fixed.

531
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:18,840
And I think that accountability factor

532
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,380
just gets blown out of the water

533
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:21,940
in all the noise that we've seen.

534
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,540
Is the OP return debate primarily a technical issue

535
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:29,780
or is driven by deeper ideological principles?

536
00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:30,460
It's definitely deeper.

537
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:33,400
I think it's, it always,

538
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,060
so this is how I see all the debates typically that happen.

539
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,720
It always starts off highly, highly technical

540
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,040
on like mailing lists

541
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,240
and then it spills into some of the GitHub action

542
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,360
and then some folks just take it to X,

543
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:46,200
which is never as productive,

544
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,100
but there are some merits in terms of just,

545
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:53,000
making people aware of those debates, I think is kind of the best utility for X and some of these

546
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,120
other platforms. And increasingly, I've seen Nostra is way more of a source of signal when it comes to

547
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,660
trying to figure out those type of things around social media. But the biggest thing for me is it

548
00:32:02,660 --> 00:32:08,500
starts technical, then it goes completely tribal. And then it goes to a point where they start asking

549
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,120
even more questions that are deeper, that obviously we need to contend with about what is Bitcoin to

550
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,460
begin with and what is the source of value. So that's why I say it's a bit healthy to a certain

551
00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:22,360
extent and like all the toxicity that gets thrown around but typically it's highly technical then

552
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,500
completely tribal and then averts back to being technical so that's when things die down and why

553
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:33,200
do you say that Nostra is a better platform for that oh yeah because Nostra doesn't have the

554
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:43,660
mechanisms that drive that innate kind of tribal or less civil manner or kind of method to conduct

555
00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:49,020
yourself. I think for something like Noster, just because you're able to zap and you're able to

556
00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:56,480
actually communicate that this monetarily speaking is something worthwhile, it's a lot less intense

557
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,280
in terms of wanting to drive that type of engagement. To be honest, most of the engagement

558
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:06,200
around Noster that picks up is useful content. So it's a completely different world to X where

559
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:12,340
it's the opposite, like the most insane outlandish thing is what picks up steam as opposed to

560
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:21,140
something sound so inside bitcoin core give me the good the bad and the unresolved uh the unresolved

561
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:28,600
i think is around how to constructively engage with people that aren't um contributors i think

562
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:35,900
it's very easy for us to fall down the path of kind of creating walls where people aren't able

563
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:40,980
to engage unless they kind of cross over that i think it's very very easy to start getting to the

564
00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:45,760
habit of justifying gatekeeping to a certain extent. And that's very, very dangerous. So that's

565
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,400
what I would say is kind of on the iffy side. On the good side, I'd say, again, how welcoming people

566
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,720
are. Like, it's completely refreshing to see compared to where things used to be. And I can

567
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,560
imagine for folks that even came way before myself and some of the other earlier folks in Africa,

568
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:06,040
like, I'm pretty sure it was way worse if what we saw was kind of the way we saw it. So I'd say

569
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,920
that's kind of what the good is and kind of where the not so good is okay what's taproot progress

570
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:21,080
or just for show again not to be controversial i'll definitely give a more politically correct

571
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,680
answer i think the way to look at it is like i said bitcoin is a piece of software so there's

572
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,660
nothing like an end state for bitcoin i think the end state for bitcoin is for it to constantly

573
00:34:29,660 --> 00:34:37,040
provide value to people as a money and i think for something like taproot it's it was a necessary

574
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:42,040
change that needed to happen i think the biggest thing for people to put into context is bitcoin

575
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,520
is never a perfect code like you're always gonna need to have compromises and trade-offs especially

576
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:52,060
when you're shipping code because bitcoin upgrades at that degree don't happen as frequently as

577
00:34:52,060 --> 00:34:58,100
possible so there's a lot that goes into how you want to present it to make it as optimal as possible

578
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:00,580
for people to also review, but also to get in.

579
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,400
And like I said, the biggest thing out of all that really is around making sure you're

580
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,860
not introducing more fragility needlessly into the ecosystem, specifically through the

581
00:35:08,860 --> 00:35:09,260
code side.

582
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,580
So I think for something like Taproot, it was necessary.

583
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,880
It provided so many changes because it was a bunch of changes involved with like the

584
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,460
signature scheme all the way up to spending mechanisms and addressing some of the long

585
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:20,820
standing issues around spending Bitcoin.

586
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,420
So yeah, it was a change worthwhile.

587
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,040
In terms of, I guess, the second part of your question, which is more implied is, I

588
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:40,180
I think some of the things it introduced that makes it possible to do all the, you know, brain dead stuff that people like talk about with meme coins and DeFi stuff is maybe an unfortunate consequence to a certain extent.

589
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:46,780
But again, compared to what life would be like in Bitcoin land without Taproots, I think it's still worthwhile.

590
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,180
Do you see notes as a potential half fork?

591
00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:52,500
I knew you were going to go there.

592
00:35:55,580 --> 00:35:56,360
Not really.

593
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,100
Like, here's the thing folks have to understand.

594
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:05,200
I think that's useful context is unlike the Lightning ecosystem where it's spec and then

595
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,320
implementation with Bitcoin, it's the opposite.

596
00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:09,980
It's implementation, then spec.

597
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,260
And to a certain extent, now at least there's a lot more spec before implementation, but

598
00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:20,460
it's very difficult for you to unseat Bitcoin Core as the reference implementation that it

599
00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:20,620
is.

600
00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:25,500
But also because there are some things that have seeped into the protocol side that are

601
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:28,180
just quirks around how C++ works over the years.

602
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Obviously, the ideal state would be to kind of decouple that, maybe moving towards Rust

603
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,600
with some of the work around Rust Bitcoin.

604
00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:39,560
But I'd say in terms of like the near future around Noughts being the reference implementation,

605
00:36:39,740 --> 00:36:44,800
even achieving 50%, I don't think is as realistic, unfortunately, as a lot of people think it

606
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,180
is, because there's so much historical artifacts around requiring to use Bitcoin Core.

607
00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:53,520
And the implications of having a lot more people using Noughts as opposed to Core is

608
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,160
just, I think, completely unrealistic.

609
00:36:55,500 --> 00:37:02,740
how much of bitcoin's drama is actually about code and how much is about everything else

610
00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:09,580
i say code maybe one percent 99 is about non-code related stuff and it's kind of understandable like

611
00:37:09,580 --> 00:37:15,040
we're human beings we're not like ai or robots coding up this thing so there's a lot of emotion

612
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,160
that goes into it and i see like i said it's sometimes it's malformed arguments that are

613
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,980
packaged as like the most insane way you could communicate to a human being and sometimes it's

614
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:29,940
really well thought out constructive arguments that honestly don't get pushed into the foray because of

615
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,060
the nature of X and kind of social media amplifying the worst out of people.

616
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:35,540
So that's why it's a shame.

617
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:40,720
Like, unfortunately, I think some platforms that are really popular and kind of ubiquitous

618
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,560
for people to communicate with in the Bitcoin ecosystem, like X is just the worst place

619
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,400
you want to have a debate.

620
00:37:45,820 --> 00:37:50,140
And then if you want to go IRL, it's just, again, egos get involved and people aren't

621
00:37:50,140 --> 00:37:51,700
as honest as they could be.

622
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,820
So really, I say the best type of arguments is really like the one-on-ones with people

623
00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:59,100
when there's like no cameras, no likes, no retweets.

624
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:05,860
yeah it makes sense which upgrade or proposal got way more hate than it deserved

625
00:38:05,860 --> 00:38:13,120
i'll give two like for historical reasons i say segwit very recently like there were some

626
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,040
interesting angles that people were sharing around like how it's proposed i think so i'd

627
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,680
say this way there's a lot of historical revisions that happen with every price cycle

628
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:28,660
for obvious reasons people want to justify kind of their shift in sentiment and make it seem like

629
00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:32,980
they've always been consistent. So I say around that segment time and kind of how things unfold

630
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:38,380
that there's always with every cycle, people trying to revamp how history went out in terms

631
00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:42,580
of who won, who didn't. And I think the most recent one for me is around Taproot. I think

632
00:38:42,580 --> 00:38:49,380
for some weird reason, it seems like, so I'll give it in two sides. Like one, there are folks

633
00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:53,240
that, again, like I said, lean into the awe. There are some changes that introduce the whole

634
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:58,580
degeneracy, like they like to call it with, you know, the whole DeFi crowd. But at the same time,

635
00:38:58,660 --> 00:39:08,000
I think during the taproot activation or around that period, I think the biggest unfortunate thing was seeing how long it took to agree on how to deploy it.

636
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:17,440
It was one of the weirdest things I've ever experienced in this space where there's a piece of code or a set of changes, I should say, that everyone agrees makes sense and we should include.

637
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,920
But how you want it to deploy that became a huge, huge point of contention, which was interesting to see.

638
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:24,960
Why do you think that is?

639
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:34,840
I think it's natural because to this very day, we don't have a very straightforward way that changes get implemented at that degree in Bitcoin, specifically in Bitcoin Core.

640
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:45,400
And I think a lot of what happened with Taproot was a way to address that in real time, which is why I just blew out into like months and months of constant conversations, bike shedding and all of that.

641
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:47,640
So it's going to get better, to be honest with you.

642
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:49,800
I think it was necessary for us to get to that point.

643
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,520
And sometimes you need to see like how ugly a process is for you to be more active around fixing it.

644
00:39:55,700 --> 00:40:00,780
I heard it got implemented really quickly and there was no enough conversation around it.

645
00:40:01,220 --> 00:40:02,280
That's an interesting take.

646
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,780
Like I haven't come across that perspective.

647
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:06,420
That is very interesting.

648
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:13,300
But I guess maybe towards the end, maybe to a certain extent or maybe at certain times, I guess, as the review process was going.

649
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:20,280
But the impression I had throughout that whole process was around like the different type of implementation paths with like BIP 8, 9 and all of that.

650
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,040
And, you know, some of the activation mechanisms that were used are proposed at the time.

651
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,500
So maybe on the outside, it seemed pretty quick.

652
00:40:26,580 --> 00:40:28,620
I'm glad that was how it was perceived, I guess.

653
00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:29,620
Okay.

654
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:31,860
So to wrap up.

655
00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:32,120
Yeah.

656
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,160
What are the things Bitcoin Core actually got right?

657
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:42,900
Oh, being able to reflect the natural dynamics that you would expect.

658
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,940
in a project that involves so many people and that touches so many lives.

659
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:50,260
Now, specifically what I mean is there isn't, like I said,

660
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:53,800
a top-down on a PR-to-PR basis of who gets to dictate

661
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,380
whether there's a change that makes sense

662
00:40:55,380 --> 00:41:00,280
or who gets to kind of walk that author through the changes they need to make.

663
00:41:00,820 --> 00:41:03,500
And honestly, it reflects the natural thing you would expect,

664
00:41:03,620 --> 00:41:06,680
like whoever cares about that part of the code base is who's most involved.

665
00:41:07,140 --> 00:41:11,120
And sometimes something as little as a developer just being there

666
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,820
at the right time to see that code change,

667
00:41:12,820 --> 00:41:15,820
Because contrary to a lot of mythos around Bitcoin,

668
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:17,560
Bitcoin Core has a lot of activity.

669
00:41:17,860 --> 00:41:19,440
Like it's not one of those things

670
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,000
where we wait every four years

671
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,180
and then we decide there are changes that need to be made.

672
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,240
Like on a daily, there's so much to keep up with.

673
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,380
So I think the natural dynamics around

674
00:41:28,380 --> 00:41:31,600
who gets to lead PRs, who gets to lead reviews,

675
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:34,160
and then eventually having the maintainers merging,

676
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,620
that is probably the most natural way

677
00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:37,940
you would expect that to go

678
00:41:37,940 --> 00:41:39,120
with kind of the implications

679
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,580
that Bitcoin has on a global stage.

680
00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:42,900
what's your biggest fear

681
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:44,200
for Bitcoin Core

682
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:45,740
over the next five years

683
00:41:45,740 --> 00:41:47,960
like I said

684
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:48,940
we have a walled garden

685
00:41:48,940 --> 00:42:05,978
I think it again it very very easy and we seen in other ecosystems and open source where it starts off with good intentions around hygiene when it comes to how you talk to people or what is a productive conversation what is spamming ironically

686
00:42:05,978 --> 00:42:24,538
And I think it's very, very easy for developers that are highly involved or even maintainers to start to be a little bit unnecessarily antagonistic to people that maybe aren't constructively criticizing them and marking that as spam or locking conversations and things around that.

687
00:42:24,618 --> 00:42:30,918
I think it's going to be one of the bigger challenges for us, even more so than like funding developers to put in code changes.

688
00:42:30,918 --> 00:42:38,118
I think we have to be really, really careful about that human element around creating a division between the people that use the code versus those that build it.

689
00:42:38,998 --> 00:42:42,138
Right now, it's still not as bad as it could get in my perspective.

690
00:42:42,478 --> 00:42:46,378
So I think it's one of those things where we have to be really, really careful.

691
00:42:46,678 --> 00:42:48,818
It's very easy to justify things.

692
00:42:49,118 --> 00:42:54,038
Any idea how to create a language to communicate between both sides?

693
00:42:54,038 --> 00:42:55,298
I think, so here's the thing.

694
00:42:55,358 --> 00:42:59,058
It's not so much like a well thought out plan.

695
00:42:59,138 --> 00:43:01,038
I could dish out where people, as soon as they do this,

696
00:43:01,218 --> 00:43:02,298
everything is going to be fixed.

697
00:43:02,658 --> 00:43:04,138
I think it's more on the human side.

698
00:43:04,158 --> 00:43:04,878
Like we're human beings.

699
00:43:04,998 --> 00:43:08,758
I think you just have to hope that a lot more people

700
00:43:08,758 --> 00:43:12,438
are honest with one another, especially how they engage.

701
00:43:12,438 --> 00:43:16,118
And they are able to stay principled and focused.

702
00:43:16,438 --> 00:43:17,878
And that's all it's going to take really.

703
00:43:18,178 --> 00:43:20,898
It's not a thing where there's a on and off switch

704
00:43:20,898 --> 00:43:22,438
in human beings where they could be rational

705
00:43:22,438 --> 00:43:23,858
versus irrational.

706
00:43:24,738 --> 00:43:26,158
As a non-technical person,

707
00:43:26,498 --> 00:43:28,458
I think you need to leave the technical stuff

708
00:43:28,458 --> 00:43:29,458
to the technical people.

709
00:43:29,738 --> 00:43:31,978
But I also think that the technical people

710
00:43:31,978 --> 00:43:34,198
should be able to explain what they are doing

711
00:43:34,198 --> 00:43:37,078
in words that we get.

712
00:43:37,718 --> 00:43:38,178
100%.

713
00:43:38,178 --> 00:43:39,318
I like that you brought that up

714
00:43:39,318 --> 00:43:41,278
because it's often overlooked.

715
00:43:41,278 --> 00:43:44,338
What I would say to the non-technical crowd

716
00:43:44,338 --> 00:43:47,538
is the moment it becomes obvious

717
00:43:47,538 --> 00:43:50,078
that a person is unable to communicate

718
00:43:50,078 --> 00:43:52,398
in layman's terms what they're trying to do,

719
00:43:52,438 --> 00:43:55,838
then there likely is either one or two things.

720
00:43:55,958 --> 00:43:56,918
One, maybe they don't understand

721
00:43:56,918 --> 00:43:57,998
what the hell they're talking about.

722
00:43:58,498 --> 00:43:59,898
Or two, they're trying to hide something.

723
00:44:00,118 --> 00:44:02,418
So typically you're able to call out BS

724
00:44:02,418 --> 00:44:04,378
when it comes to highly technical folks.

725
00:44:04,458 --> 00:44:05,898
It's very easy for a technical person

726
00:44:05,898 --> 00:44:08,418
to hide into all the technical jargon

727
00:44:08,418 --> 00:44:09,218
and make you feel like,

728
00:44:09,298 --> 00:44:11,018
oh, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

729
00:44:11,118 --> 00:44:13,138
But a lot of that is kind of diversion tactics

730
00:44:13,138 --> 00:44:14,218
on the side of developers.

731
00:44:14,218 --> 00:44:16,058
And I see on the other side too,

732
00:44:16,198 --> 00:44:18,218
again, to answer your question directly,

733
00:44:18,778 --> 00:44:20,258
I think the best language when it comes

734
00:44:20,258 --> 00:44:21,818
to how to interact between the devs

735
00:44:21,818 --> 00:44:25,158
and the non-devs is the language of empathy.

736
00:44:26,138 --> 00:44:28,138
Like at the end of the day, like for technical folks,

737
00:44:28,138 --> 00:44:31,858
they have to remember that folks you're talking to

738
00:44:31,858 --> 00:44:32,818
in terms of the non-technical

739
00:44:32,818 --> 00:44:34,518
are not as directly involved with the code base.

740
00:44:34,518 --> 00:44:36,878
So there's so much that they're definitely unaware of,

741
00:44:36,878 --> 00:44:39,438
not because they're ignorant or they're not intelligent,

742
00:44:39,438 --> 00:44:41,398
but because they're not aware.

743
00:44:41,398 --> 00:44:43,238
You're working on code and they're not.

744
00:44:43,238 --> 00:44:46,098
And I think on the non-technical side as well,

745
00:44:46,098 --> 00:44:51,158
I think really it's around trying to be as straightforward

746
00:44:51,158 --> 00:44:52,098
in terms of the communication

747
00:44:52,098 --> 00:44:53,398
and kind of the points you're trying to make.

748
00:44:53,518 --> 00:44:56,078
Don't beat around the bush with trying to beat them down

749
00:44:56,078 --> 00:44:58,878
to make yourself feel like you're on the same level.

750
00:44:59,058 --> 00:45:00,338
Like regardless, we're all on the same level.

751
00:45:00,458 --> 00:45:01,598
Like the whole division around,

752
00:45:02,118 --> 00:45:04,338
oh, I'm a dev and you're not a dev

753
00:45:04,338 --> 00:45:06,358
and there's like hierarchy doesn't make any sense.

754
00:45:06,458 --> 00:45:08,878
And that's like the worst case scenario for Bitcoin land

755
00:45:08,878 --> 00:45:10,518
if we start to think from that perspective.

756
00:45:12,118 --> 00:45:13,998
What's Bitcoin's biggest risk?

757
00:45:16,458 --> 00:45:17,398
Maybe three things.

758
00:45:17,398 --> 00:45:24,538
one is for us to lose focus on why bitcoin is a valuable technology like the moment we start to

759
00:45:24,538 --> 00:45:29,598
think about it as it's just valuable because it's valuable like we've completely lost the plot

760
00:45:29,598 --> 00:45:34,818
i think we have to always remember that it's money that works for the billions around the world that

761
00:45:34,818 --> 00:45:39,438
currently do not have money that works for them and the moment we lose sight of that as the core

762
00:45:39,438 --> 00:45:44,418
value and the price action being a reflection of that success then we're finished i think secondly

763
00:45:44,418 --> 00:45:46,498
is if Bitcoin is not used as money.

764
00:45:46,678 --> 00:45:47,878
I think that goes without saying

765
00:45:47,878 --> 00:45:49,278
it's kind of to the same first point.

766
00:45:49,858 --> 00:45:51,558
And I'd say the other one really is around

767
00:45:51,558 --> 00:45:53,738
general apathy in this space,

768
00:45:53,858 --> 00:45:56,138
specifically around people thinking

769
00:45:56,138 --> 00:45:57,678
that Bitcoin has a final state

770
00:45:57,678 --> 00:45:59,818
or Bitcoin is finished as a software.

771
00:46:00,018 --> 00:46:01,618
I think that's very dangerous terrain

772
00:46:01,618 --> 00:46:03,338
because software is never finished.

773
00:46:03,518 --> 00:46:05,178
It's either maintained or not maintained.

774
00:46:05,658 --> 00:46:07,378
And I'd say the last one for us is

775
00:46:07,378 --> 00:46:12,458
creating an ecosystem that rewards

776
00:46:12,458 --> 00:46:25,396
inconsistent principles or rewards folks that are not as highly principled as they could be or should be to drive this thing to still be around for the next generation to enjoy to degrees that we

777
00:46:25,396 --> 00:46:28,836
currently not even enjoying. So I say those are the big ones. It's really around like

778
00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:35,956
us losing the soul on the ecosystem, losing that focus around it being money. And worst of all,

779
00:46:35,956 --> 00:46:40,656
I think just being content with the state of things. Many non-tech people talk about

780
00:46:40,656 --> 00:46:43,076
ossification. What do you think about that?

781
00:46:43,716 --> 00:46:50,996
As I put simply, what I do agree in terms of the ossification argument is there's a base set of

782
00:46:50,996 --> 00:46:55,356
things that Bitcoin should be doing that should be kept in check, that should be messed with on

783
00:46:55,356 --> 00:47:00,056
the protocol level side. But at the same time, it's one of those things where, again, it's a

784
00:47:00,056 --> 00:47:05,396
piece of software. There's definitely going to be a lot of changes that will contend with either

785
00:47:05,396 --> 00:47:09,796
the protocol side or even to a certain extent, not the protocol side, and then dive deep into

786
00:47:09,796 --> 00:47:15,076
conversations around that same thing we saw with OpraTern. And I think it's on the one hand,

787
00:47:15,116 --> 00:47:21,196
you don't want to lean into Bitcoin is perfect because that's a lie. I think there's no way

788
00:47:21,196 --> 00:47:26,236
around that. Bitcoin is way far from perfect. And at the same time, you also don't want to get

789
00:47:26,236 --> 00:47:33,376
into the weeds of like justifying DeFi or all the things that we as a community decided a long,

790
00:47:33,496 --> 00:47:37,576
long time ago to separate ourselves from the wider crypto space and being that source of signal.

791
00:47:37,576 --> 00:47:44,276
it's very easy to say Bitcoin doing 10x more is good because we have 10x more. But that's like

792
00:47:44,276 --> 00:47:49,216
dangerous thinking in my perspective, because introduces a lot of things that we see in the

793
00:47:49,216 --> 00:47:54,456
crypto space that introduces all that kind of fraud and misaligned incentives that we honestly

794
00:47:54,456 --> 00:47:58,296
don't want in the Bitcoin space. So when it comes to the ossification debate, it's about

795
00:47:58,296 --> 00:48:02,696
maintaining kind of a balance around being realistic about the software not being perfect,

796
00:48:02,696 --> 00:48:07,416
but also recognizing that you don't want to needlessly introduce things just because

797
00:48:07,416 --> 00:48:10,836
it's an introduction and people can do way more with Bitcoin now.

798
00:48:11,876 --> 00:48:17,236
You mentioned just now that we decided a long time ago to separate ourselves from DeFi.

799
00:48:17,896 --> 00:48:19,936
Could you elaborate a little bit more?

800
00:48:19,976 --> 00:48:24,656
Oh yeah. I think the biggest reason maybe would be, and this is me obviously talking out of turn,

801
00:48:24,656 --> 00:48:28,616
given the fact that I wasn't there to begin with. So this is like pre-2017 is,

802
00:48:29,356 --> 00:48:34,896
I think after a certain while, it became very obvious that the whole blockchain conversation

803
00:48:34,896 --> 00:48:35,916
became super saturated.

804
00:48:36,056 --> 00:48:36,656
So it was about like,

805
00:48:36,716 --> 00:48:37,396
how do you differentiate

806
00:48:37,396 --> 00:48:38,396
the different ecosystems

807
00:48:38,396 --> 00:48:39,576
around Ethereum, Bitcoin,

808
00:48:39,696 --> 00:48:40,436
and the rest.

809
00:48:40,856 --> 00:48:42,356
Some ecosystems like the Ethereum side

810
00:48:42,356 --> 00:48:42,996
were just like,

811
00:48:43,156 --> 00:48:44,016
Bitcoin's a pet rock,

812
00:48:44,236 --> 00:48:45,816
were better because we could do 10x things.

813
00:48:46,336 --> 00:48:47,316
And now like fast forward,

814
00:48:47,476 --> 00:48:48,876
like the Solanas and everyone else

815
00:48:48,876 --> 00:48:49,876
was kind of a copycat.

816
00:48:50,536 --> 00:48:51,136
Over the years,

817
00:48:51,156 --> 00:48:53,376
what we saw is the Bitcoin crowd

818
00:48:53,376 --> 00:48:55,676
entrenching themselves around things

819
00:48:55,676 --> 00:48:58,016
like the fundamentals of money,

820
00:48:58,676 --> 00:48:59,616
creating a better money,

821
00:49:00,256 --> 00:49:01,176
being very cautious

822
00:49:01,176 --> 00:49:02,256
about introducing changes,

823
00:49:02,336 --> 00:49:02,756
like I said,

824
00:49:02,816 --> 00:49:03,736
that are just changes

825
00:49:03,736 --> 00:49:08,556
that provide the ability to do 10x more things without any utility and being highly focused

826
00:49:08,556 --> 00:49:12,676
versus being distracted, in my opinion, with ICOs, all that kind of fancy stuff going on.

827
00:49:12,756 --> 00:49:16,756
So when I say we made a calculated decision, it was both explicit and implicit.

828
00:49:16,936 --> 00:49:21,356
I think one reinforced the other, maybe the latter to the former, around making sure that

829
00:49:21,356 --> 00:49:27,016
we don't get into the habit of justifying all these things or being involved with all

830
00:49:27,016 --> 00:49:31,716
this and creating a parallel ecosystem that's just as fraught with fraud and kind of horrible

831
00:49:31,716 --> 00:49:32,416
things going on.

832
00:49:32,416 --> 00:49:33,936
So for us with the Bitcoin space,

833
00:49:33,936 --> 00:49:35,616
like it's been very obvious over the years,

834
00:49:35,616 --> 00:49:38,536
like we further entrenched ourselves as like Gigi used

835
00:49:38,536 --> 00:49:40,876
to write about like with a innate,

836
00:49:42,076 --> 00:49:43,896
what I say, immune system for the ecosystem

837
00:49:43,896 --> 00:49:44,936
to make sure that we're healthy

838
00:49:44,936 --> 00:49:46,976
and not like getting into all the issues

839
00:49:46,976 --> 00:49:48,076
that we've seen with crypto.

840
00:49:48,076 --> 00:49:48,996
Yeah.

841
00:49:48,996 --> 00:49:51,256
Finally, what's your red line?

842
00:49:51,256 --> 00:49:54,016
If this ever happens to Bitcoin, I'm out.

843
00:49:54,016 --> 00:49:55,296
Oof.

844
00:49:55,296 --> 00:49:57,076
Like I said, probably the first two points I mentioned

845
00:49:57,076 --> 00:49:59,716
around like the worst case scenario with Bitcoin is,

846
00:49:59,716 --> 00:50:01,656
or maybe three, maybe three things I think.

847
00:50:01,656 --> 00:50:07,876
And they all have to happen, to be honest, for me to leave because I try to be as hopeful as possible until it's not.

848
00:50:08,256 --> 00:50:09,116
And I can't do that.

849
00:50:09,316 --> 00:50:14,936
So it's one is us losing focus around Bitcoin being a money that works.

850
00:50:15,456 --> 00:50:17,576
Like that is a complete red flag for me and no go.

851
00:50:18,296 --> 00:50:27,276
Two is getting distracted as a space in terms of where we see things or how development is done or the kind of companies that are coming out and all of that.

852
00:50:27,276 --> 00:50:29,896
Like if consciously as an ecosystem,

853
00:50:29,896 --> 00:50:33,196
we decide to leave that thesis of Bitcoin is money

854
00:50:33,196 --> 00:50:35,376
and we just move towards Bitcoin is valuable

855
00:50:35,376 --> 00:50:58,314
because it valuable that a complete red flag for me And I think another one is if the entire space just gives up using Bitcoin as money and we all just end up huddling until infinity I think that a huge red flag for me And I say honestly the last one is maybe on a personal level like if it just doesn feel as it used to or it does currently where I actually driven to be involved in the space then definitely obviously going to leave

856
00:50:58,894 --> 00:51:02,214
What do you think about all these companies like strategy?

857
00:51:02,434 --> 00:51:03,394
Large Bitcoin treasuries.

858
00:51:03,614 --> 00:51:03,774
Yeah.

859
00:51:03,774 --> 00:51:12,074
Yeah, I'd say it's a necessary function of both, I guess, the success of Bitcoin as an actual thing that's valuable.

860
00:51:12,634 --> 00:51:30,874
And the very mere fact that companies now see it as a viable way to kind of make their fiat productive and kind of change course, honestly, with a lot of companies that maybe were previously a bit stagnant in terms of their growth and how it's been able to grow their kind of their shareholder value, quote unquote.

861
00:51:30,874 --> 00:51:37,434
And I think that the second aspect is it's something you would expect from a money that works so well.

862
00:51:37,614 --> 00:51:42,154
Like I said, the price is just a reflection of how well it is a better money than everything that we have currently.

863
00:51:42,334 --> 00:51:49,034
So it makes sense that it combines that ability really for companies to be able to tap into that rise in price,

864
00:51:49,054 --> 00:51:55,094
but also make sure that they're not losing due to fiat and obviously the inflationary nature of fiat,

865
00:51:55,194 --> 00:51:58,714
but also the fact that fiat keeps getting devalued vis-a-vis Bitcoin.

866
00:51:58,714 --> 00:51:59,734
So I think it makes sense.

867
00:51:59,734 --> 00:52:03,574
it's a logical progression. I think it's interesting, the debate, to be honest with you,

868
00:52:03,594 --> 00:52:06,354
because like five years ago, a lot of the conversations, at least with some of the VCs

869
00:52:06,354 --> 00:52:10,454
we were in touch with, like on the Curse of Capital side, was around Bitcoin treasuries,

870
00:52:10,594 --> 00:52:15,394
actually, because on the continent, we still have this issue where there are a lot of fintech

871
00:52:15,394 --> 00:52:19,534
companies that have dollars trapped, in my opinion, in bank accounts that are just completely

872
00:52:19,534 --> 00:52:23,914
unproductive. And I say trapped because due to the fact that they're founders in places that are

873
00:52:23,914 --> 00:52:29,154
high risk, most of the times they get debanked. So not only are you keeping dollars that are doing

874
00:52:29,154 --> 00:52:33,674
nothing, most of the time you're actually moving those flows from different bank accounts. So it's

875
00:52:33,674 --> 00:52:37,314
like the most unproductive thing you could possibly do. And the thinking was, if you're able to

876
00:52:37,314 --> 00:52:41,494
introduce Bitcoin into their treasury, then you're able to provide a way to kind of make it more

877
00:52:41,494 --> 00:52:45,814
productive for the companies to compete with one another. And again, the biggest thing for me is I

878
00:52:45,814 --> 00:52:51,274
think Bitcoin is the best version of fintech or is the natural version of fintech. So naturally,

879
00:52:51,274 --> 00:52:54,074
if you want to be competitive, I think it makes sense to have your treasury in Bitcoin.

880
00:52:54,654 --> 00:52:58,874
So I think the bigger question or the more implicit question really to your question,

881
00:52:59,154 --> 00:53:04,634
around what does Bitcoin treasury companies mean for, again, the soul of Bitcoin and the

882
00:53:04,634 --> 00:53:06,814
trajectory in terms of the focus as a community?

883
00:53:06,974 --> 00:53:12,294
Do we focus more on doing all we can to maximize price action or do we still revert back to,

884
00:53:12,414 --> 00:53:14,054
in my opinion, the true value around money?

885
00:53:14,054 --> 00:53:19,994
I think it's still yet to be decided where we'll go, but I'm definitely not of the opinion

886
00:53:19,994 --> 00:53:25,074
as maybe some have on X of like strategy being this monolith is going to destroy the space.

887
00:53:25,074 --> 00:53:31,414
I think what people have to remember is these are still folks that resonate with the core value of Bitcoin.

888
00:53:31,714 --> 00:53:36,874
And it's too early to call it out and say, you know, it's all over.

889
00:53:36,994 --> 00:53:37,934
Things are going to go horrible.

890
00:53:38,474 --> 00:53:50,254
I think we'll have to watch and see what happens with these large companies that have so much Bitcoin and whether they'll go the path, like I said, of just thinking about Bitcoin being valuable because it's valuable versus it being something useful for humanity.

891
00:53:50,794 --> 00:53:50,914
Yeah.

892
00:53:51,634 --> 00:53:53,454
Well, thank you, Abu Bakr.

893
00:53:53,454 --> 00:54:00,954
thank you for your time and great conversation where can people find you argue with you find

894
00:54:00,954 --> 00:54:07,114
your work uh if you want to argue with me in real life is the best i mean i don't involve myself

895
00:54:07,114 --> 00:54:11,574
with any debates online at all i made a conscious decision three years ago exactly to the date

896
00:54:11,574 --> 00:54:19,394
uh separate to that like nostor uh x i'm i hate 1999 yes one of those things

897
00:54:19,394 --> 00:54:21,454
and separate to that

898
00:54:21,454 --> 00:54:22,234
like if you're looking

899
00:54:22,234 --> 00:54:22,794
on the dev side

900
00:54:22,794 --> 00:54:24,174
like my GitHub is

901
00:54:24,174 --> 00:54:24,694
zero

902
00:54:24,694 --> 00:54:26,074
and dash 1729

903
00:54:26,074 --> 00:54:27,294
and then if you're looking

904
00:54:27,294 --> 00:54:29,114
for me to think about

905
00:54:29,114 --> 00:54:30,554
larger things

906
00:54:30,554 --> 00:54:31,014
that are happening

907
00:54:31,014 --> 00:54:31,494
in this space

908
00:54:31,494 --> 00:54:32,574
I say the BeTrust blog

909
00:54:32,574 --> 00:54:33,774
we like to be as open

910
00:54:33,774 --> 00:54:34,314
as possible

911
00:54:34,314 --> 00:54:35,554
the recursive capital blog

912
00:54:35,554 --> 00:54:35,874
as well

913
00:54:35,874 --> 00:54:36,874
and also my

914
00:54:36,874 --> 00:54:39,014
writing around Forbes

915
00:54:39,014 --> 00:54:40,454
typically documenting

916
00:54:40,454 --> 00:54:40,934
what's happening

917
00:54:40,934 --> 00:54:41,694
in the Bitcoin space

918
00:54:41,694 --> 00:54:42,994
specifically in Africa

919
00:54:42,994 --> 00:54:43,754
and some of those other parts

920
00:54:43,754 --> 00:54:44,554
so I say those are places

921
00:54:44,554 --> 00:54:45,254
you can find me

922
00:54:45,254 --> 00:54:46,894
again thank you for your time

923
00:54:46,894 --> 00:54:48,694
for this generous conversation

924
00:54:48,694 --> 00:54:51,094
I really learned a lot and I can't wait to have you back.

925
00:54:51,334 --> 00:54:51,954
Thanks for having me.

926
00:54:52,034 --> 00:54:52,614
Really enjoyed it.