You just saw what Google did the other day, and then reversed the ruling on self-custodial wallets.
It wasn't a simple act of somebody lower down made a mistake.
It was a coordinated attack.
It was probably a trial balloon to what's coming.
This is dictatorship. He's taking more power.
He's changing the Constitution to support something that shouldn't exist.
And that is a valid argument.
For all the people that are making it, it needs to be looked at.
The other side of that argument is, would the citizens and would El Salvador, if he changed the government today, carry on a path that was individual rights and freedoms and everything else?
Or would it just revert directly back to what it looked like before?
And I don't know the answer.
Africa, not just Central African Republic, but Africa in general has been stripped mind.
Essentially, you've put people in slavery by a monetary system.
They have no sovereignty over the currency, and the currency is constantly debased to be able to extract raw materials and wealth.
It's an extortion scheme that keeps countries poorer and funds wealthy nations.
Your thoughts on the European Union.
All views expressed by the host or guests are solely their own opinions.
Nothing stated in this podcast should be considered a specific endorsement to make any particular investment or follow any specific strategy.
Welcome to All in Bitcoin, Jeff. I'm excited to talk to you about Bitcoin and more.
But first, let's get to know you better with my 21 takes on you. Ready?
Okay, it's ready.
Mark Twain said,
the two most important days of your life
are the day you are born
and the day you find out why.
Have you found out why yet?
No, I haven't found out why yet.
I think you're always searching.
Yeah, I think you're,
I think that wisdom of learning
and constantly adjusting your mental model.
I've learned a lot, made a lot of mistakes,
but I think you're constantly learning.
Something you keep forgetting to do?
I don't think there is anything that I keep forgetting to do.
No?
Yeah, nothing comes to me that if it rises up to a level that I want to do it, I do it.
The risks of a society that stays ignorant?
I actually think the society always stays ignorant.
I think, and maybe this is a different way to say this, common wisdom in retrospect always looks
wrong throughout history. I think that throughout history, we've assumed we've known 98% of
everything. And then we'd learn something new that completely changes everything.
So in other words, the new information that challenges the status quo challenges us so much,
are so radical that we change over time.
And it's a long process of our minds
kind of accepting a new thing that we didn't see before.
And it's iterative.
What are your thoughts on starting over?
I would rather start over than stay stuck.
And why do you think knowing yourself is so hard?
Because you lie to yourself.
We have all of these beliefs
and how we show up and we want to matter to other people
and we keep on reinforcing things through that lens.
So we don't see the true objective reality
because of our own ego trying to stop that.
So it's hard to see.
When you look at a photo, you look at yourself first in a photo.
You're the center of your own movie,
but everyone else is the center of their own movie.
And so we don't see what it all looks like
because we're so focused on ourselves.
What's the most valuable lesson you've learned from failure?
That it's not failure, it's learning.
We're making decisions constantly.
Every day you're making a million decisions.
And going through life, you always do.
And those decisions change everything going forward.
So, space and time, all of the challenges, all of the things that got you to make that decision, and then you make a decision.
You may have made a wrong decision, but it taught you the next time to not make that decision if you take the learning.
Where does freedom come from?
That's a good one.
I think it's natural.
I think it comes from within agency, having agency.
But I don't think it feels natural.
I think freedom is a right you hold. And if you give that up to somebody else, you've lost your agency.
Tell me something you dislike in someone, but secretly admire too.
I don't think there's anything. Honestly, I don't think there's anything that I dislike
and secretly admire. I dislike lack of integrity. I dislike certain things.
But I see every single person as having a genius, something genius in them that they do so much better than me.
And I'm curious about how do they do that thing.
I don't have to like every bit of them.
I don't have to like all of their traits.
But most times, I'm searching for the genius in people.
If your younger self could see you now, what would he be proud of and what would he question?
Question how many twists and turns to get here and what that looked like.
My younger self would have no idea I'd be doing what I do now.
I don't think my 10 years ago younger self would have not known what I was really doing now.
and admire probably integrity, authenticity.
What's something you know is true,
but it still find hard to accept?
That 99% of the world, maybe more than that,
lives in a control system.
They don't know they live in a control system.
They have the belief that they live free,
and they do not live free.
Do you manage to accept that?
So, I accept that that is the truth today.
And I think we are the change in the world.
We're both the map and the territory of the change.
And so, that can be true and you can do something about it.
So, that creates an opportunity for people to help other people see it
and understand what that looks like and build rails
to make a different world come into existence.
The world that we see is a construct of our beliefs.
Everything comes into the world, everything in this room came into it
from somebody having an idea to create something for somebody else.
Physical manifestation of the world we see is actually first in our mind.
And so, while that is true today, and I accept it's true,
I'm intent on changing that.
What's a childhood lesson that still shapes your decisions today?
That family is more important than money.
That love, belonging, people around you
is far more important than the things you have
or the money or the perceived wealth, power, or anything else.
It all about the end of your life what you have is the connections you made through your time When did you learn that I learned it probably 11 years old when my parents lost everything in the real estate crash
Lost everything but had everything.
What was the situation then?
In 1981, interest rates spiked to 20-something percent.
and my parents were both in real estate at the time
and we ended up losing our own home to the bank.
What we didn't lose is kind of love connection
and everything else.
It was a family structure.
So everything else is easy to make back
when you have the things that are most important.
What's the most underrated quality a person can have?
Humility.
your thoughts on the european union
um it's going to break up um unfortunately but but that's it's going to break up because of the
same same reason that a lot of the world's going through chaos today you have a manufactured reality
based on manipulation of money which is imposing pain on on people and people are starting to see
through it. And so as each country turns against each other and their own citizens start to rise up,
you're going to see this breaking apart. In the European Union, you have energy and security,
you have less and less manufacturing base. And so it doesn't look like a free market at all anymore,
not even close. And it's getting worse, more and more regulation, more and more control,
more and more coercion, more and more government saying, you can't even question this,
more and more people getting turned off by social media, social media just deciding with government
actors what you can see and what you can't see. So, we evolve the world through our thoughts and
ideas. So, if those thoughts and ideas are constrained and we're told what we can believe in,
then we all suffer.
And so the European Union is getting pretty far down the path
that it's going to break pretty badly.
Pretty badly.
Now I can't tell you when, what country.
I can't, as I've said often,
you can't measure which snowflake causes the avalanche,
but you know that as you add more and more snow
to an unstable base, the avalanche is coming.
Yeah.
And your thoughts on Christine Lagarde?
Well, I try not to talk about people. I try to talk about systems.
She's just a person in that system. Here's a better way to say that.
Who would you expect to be leading on top of a system based on theft?
Wouldn't you expect the people who were best at it to be leading? And that would include many,
many people, whether they know it or not, inside our institutions of today. The institutions of
today are not protecting you, they're controlling you. Yeah, I was going to ask you your thoughts
on Ursula von der Leyen. Yeah, I don't know whether any of these individual people
know what I'm talking about when I talk about my message, but I know that the base of what
they're using to structure the problems can't be solved from within their their system and no
matter who it is so i would rather not talk about the people perpetuating that system because it's
just if you changed a person it would make no change that's true the hardest line you've ever
had to hold it goes back to integrity um i built a very successful internet uh business um and for
17 years CEO, all sorts of challenges on the way through, dot-com crash, 2008 financial crisis,
pivots in the business as we pivoted the business many times. But it was worth half a billion
dollars. At one point, we were growing really, really fast. And I put some debt into the business,
I put some debt into the business from a friend of mine at the time. And then that friend wanted to
recap the business, to own it with just me. So wipe everybody else out, give me more of the
equity in the company. And that would mean wiping out all of the investors who trusted in me and all
my friends who trusted in me and everything else. So instead of doing that, I remember saying to my
wife, I said, my integrity is not for sale for any price, but that means we're going to zero.
It meant I'd already sold my house to be able to invest in the business.
And so three young kids.
And walking away was zero.
I didn't have severance because I walked away from it.
Knowing full well that they were going to take it into Chapter 11 bankruptcy after I walked away and I was going to be wiped out to zero.
I didn't know what I was going to do at the end of the month.
I didn't know. We had literally had zero. That's a test.
It's a test. Had I not made that choice, I would be working essentially for the person,
and I would have turned against everything I believed in. And the only person that could
have taken my integrity was me. And nothing I'm doing now would exist. I wouldn't have written my
book. I don't think it was ever a test. It was so easy knowing what to do was right. Instead of
of telling myself a lie that said, it's okay, I'll just do it.
Where does that integrity come from?
I think just a knowing, just who I am.
If I say I'm this person and then I don't do that thing, then I'm not that person.
I used to say this to investment bankers all the time when I said one of our values was
integrity in our business.
And they said, you can't have that value because everybody has that value.
It's a nothing burger.
And I said, nobody has that value.
Because it actually doesn't, the world wouldn't look like this if everybody had that value.
And that's when you know what a core value is, something that you're unwavering.
You will not change.
Whether the whole world disagreed with it or not, you will not change.
You will go to zero.
Because it's so core to you that you know that about yourself.
I'm curious, does it come from when you were a kid, from your family?
lessons that you had really early on?
I don't know if it comes, maybe,
but I said that I experienced what my parents went through,
and my parents went through still love, family, structure, everything.
So I was fortunate to grow up in a world
where I saw the best in people, right?
So maybe.
What topic needs urgent attention?
Bitcoin.
And what it does in the structure of the world.
This is a structural change.
It's not just the singularly most important thing.
Everything else is derivative of it.
It imposes a free market.
For the first time in history,
it's a step change for humanity.
And most people are measuring it
through the piece of paper.
So what's a piece of advice you got
that changed your perspective?
All the time.
Like literally all the time.
So there is no one piece of advice that changed my perspective.
The latest?
The ones that you can think of?
I would say mostly changing my perspective is not advice I got.
It's by making a mistake and measuring the mistake.
And being ruthlessly objective.
And so here's a broad one that attaches to everything else.
Your life is a mirror.
If you don't like the reflection, it's not somebody else.
It's you.
completely unequivocally And what ends up happening is we wanna take credit for all the great things in our life And then as soon as there something bad we want to blame somebody else And the blame that we attach to somebody else is the thing that we need to fix in ourselves
If you take that lesson, if you take that any time you want to blame or critic somebody else,
to use that lesson to actually improve your own sounding, your life will change in such a powerful
way. But it's hard because what it means is you have to face the thing in you that you don't want
to face. And it's way easier to hide that and say it's somebody else. When did you learn that?
Constantly. A book that changed the way you look at the world.
Oh, there's so many here. You can give me a few.
So, I always go blank on this question because I still read at least a book a week, and I have for so many years.
And so, there'll be themes for a while that I'll go down a rabbit hole where the current theme is in quantum physics and the nature of reality and physics generally and then quantum physics.
And so, there's just a whole bunch of books in that general theme.
Thinking Fast and Slow was one of those books that changed my perspective of how we think.
So I have a hard time remembering the individual titles, a signal and a noise.
And so these will pop up.
And through reading so many books for so long, you start to see patterns.
This thing is tied to this thing that's tied to this thing that's tied to those things.
But I very rarely remember the book.
And one you'd recommend to a pre-coiner?
I actually think my book is a good pre-coiner book
because it only mentions Bitcoin at the end.
And then, say, Fidin's book.
Now, Lawrence Leppard's The Big Print is a great book.
Lynn's book, Broken Money, is a really great book.
Yeah.
An idea that's been proving disastrous,
but keeps coming back.
That you could build a credit-based system.
that it's disastrous for the world.
System based on fractional reserve banking.
It keeps coming back.
You reset it through war,
you kill tens of millions of people,
and then it starts over.
Everybody builds institutions saying,
let's not forget.
How old is it?
Say for 5,000 years,
we've lived in a zero-sum game
where somebody had to lose for you to win.
And it's not the nature of reality.
It's a construct
because of the worst in us, building a system based on scarcity, fear, and control,
not based on abundance. So, it keeps coming back because we're part of that system,
and we keep on building that system. Actually, it ties to the other thing I said.
We believe it's somebody else, but it's us.
Something there is no turning back from.
I don't think there's turning back from the truth. I don't think there's turning back from
what Bitcoin imposes. Why I'm so positive on this is a truth is really hard to fight against
because it imposes a cost on the people that lie, and that cost keeps on exploding as long
as you just stay in the higher energy of the truth. And people see the truth over time. It
might take them a long time. If you use Galileo and building a telescope to look out and say,
the church is wrong, that took 300 and something years before the church said,
sorry, we were wrong. That perception, a different perception from outside the system,
when other people can build telescopes and see that it's true, is really hard to fight against.
And so I think that's what the world's going through right now with essentially an honest ledger that Bitcoin is.
They're starting to see the truth of just fracturing what's always been a lie.
The question is, are you rejecting it?
I know many people who are not, and many people who did reject it only five years ago that are now not rejecting it.
That's what I'm saying.
It's just early.
It's just these types of ideas that change the pattern in our brains of something we didn't know.
We have to hear them over and over and over again.
And then we move our time.
And we look back at other people still stuck.
And we wonder why they're stuck when we were stuck five years ago.
So it takes time to change that pattern.
The last time you were challenged.
All the time.
What I recognize is, though, when I'm challenged, it's me.
What I used to think were business challenges, what I used to think were this, were that, were the way I was trying to tackle them.
And while I gave energy to that challenge, while I went deeper and deeper into that challenge, I always have eventually found at a different, maybe at a different energy frequency,
that the solution was so easy.
So that's one of the same things like blame.
I don't look at it as a challenge.
In fact, even wouldn't you celebrate challenges?
Wouldn't you, if everybody didn't know something
and you had to create something that was so different,
so valuable for people, the harder that was,
wouldn't that be the why everybody else didn't do it?
That tension is what creates the opportunity.
Your favorite quote?
Watch your thoughts.
Your thoughts become your words.
Watch your words.
Your words become your actions.
Watch your actions.
Your actions become your character.
Yeah.
And why no star?
Because I wanted to spend more time
in the world I want to create
and less time in the world that's getting centralized
and really as simple as that.
Thanks for sharing, Jeff.
Those were my 21 texts on you.
Let's talk money, power, and of course, Bitcoin.
Okay.
Jeff, what is money?
An abstract concept of trade.
It's just an abstract concept for the trade between humans.
How is money supposed to serve society?
I'll answer it by asking a different question.
If money is an abstract concept for our trade,
and you manipulated the abstract concept of our trade,
It wouldn't serve society.
It would serve very few people in society who were manipulating the abstract concept of our trade.
How it should is no manipulation.
And then it would just be our trade.
Did you learn any of this in school?
None.
Why do you think you weren't taught about it?
Today, and because of my book, and because of other things, many PhD economists come to me and say,
I did my entire schooling on this perception of you knew what money was, and it was credit.
And then the whole system had to be built on this.
But nobody ever went deeper.
And so I don't know why.
I think it just comes down to people who don't ask a very simple question because they think somebody else knows it.
The economy could be understood by a five-year-old.
Yeah.
It doesn't take a mathematician, it doesn't take anything else. It's the sum total of our trade.
And prices fall because we compete with each other to provide more value.
That's what this economy should look like. It doesn't look anything like that,
which is why the entire construct of economists and teachers and everything else to teach you that
that you shouldn't ask about.
What's a very simple concept.
It's too complicated.
It's too complicated for your mind to understand.
We'll tell you what it looks like.
When did you first start to question how money works Probably 2008 in the financial crisis In my business at that time we were growing extraordinarily fast and we were getting paid in advance for shipping containers all over the world
And we didn't actually have to raise money because customers were paying in advance,
sometimes three months in advance. And so we had a global trade organization,
thousands of containers traveling all over the world and using technology to essentially reduce
the cost of those items all over the world through logistics and bin packing algorithms and such.
And because of the deals we offered to people, they had no problem paying in advance. But in 2008,
all of a sudden, before people knew that there was a crisis, it just shut off, like literally.
And what we realized is nobody has any money anymore and it's unwinding like crazy.
So our business, within a period of two days, went less than in half from a $50 or $60 million run rate to probably a $23 million run rate.
Overnight.
And because even if you saved 90% on goods, you didn't have the money to pay for it.
And so, and the money was just wiping out of the system so fast.
So we saw this coming and you just, you could play that forward.
And then you start, oh my God, right?
It's all built on a lie.
And you knew the government was going to come in and reinflate it.
You knew they had to because otherwise everything would have kept collapsing.
And that meant all of the players that took systematic risk that were the system would get bailed out.
And they would stay in the system.
But it would also cause another thing that every other player in that system would say,
I need to get really big too fast because heads I win, tails I win.
Because the government will always bail me out.
And so that was the first big break.
And I think it was a break because the business was booming and everything else.
And all of a sudden, it wasn't.
And so I wanted to understand that deeper.
And that took me down that rabbit hole of understanding the existing financial system deeper and what that looked like.
And it also probably started happening before, but I couldn't square the peg on why prices weren't falling.
Because the first technology that we created, the logistics technology that underpinned our business,
cost us about $5 million to create over the course of two and a half, three years.
And 10 years later, that technology was largely free.
And so that was happening in every business I knew.
So I couldn't understand why prices weren't falling.
And that was what was happening.
So that was a course of, I did not want to write the book.
Why not?
I was just hoping somebody else would write it.
I was telling other people, but their eyes would glaze over.
Like I was talking different language.
and I thought the world my kids will grow up in if somebody doesn't take action and that's why I
wrote the book. When did you get into Austrian economics? I didn't know anything about Austrian
economics until long after I wrote my book. Not long after but people said about my book that it
had the same theme as a bunch of the Austrian economists and then I saw that same theme going
throughout history.
So you'd see these people talk about the same thing
in different ways.
They don't know each other.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's funny that Austrian economists look like quacks
because of the power of the existing system
to make them look like quacks.
When did governments take over money and why?
That's more of a complicated question
because simply it pays for the government structure.
So they can unfairly attack their citizens and not ask.
So when you dig into that,
it means nobody's living in what they think is a democracy.
You don't have a vote in that.
So because governments,
if they asked for an increase in taxes,
they get thrown out.
They can instead impose an unfair tax
by printing money and fund operations
and get bigger and bigger and bigger at the cost of the citizens. I don't know if most governments,
because the government is just a collection of human beings making decisions, and most of those
people inside that structure have no idea what I'm saying here. The central bank might, but they
don't have any idea what I'm saying here, because they see all the problems, and the short-term way
to solve the problem is print more money, because the people are yelling for a short-term solution,
And if you allowed the free market to work, that credit-based system would collapse.
So they always take the short-term solution because they'll get more votes.
But you really think the government doesn't know?
I'll tell you how many conversations I've had in this.
They don't know.
They don't.
They're just people.
It's way easier to believe that there's this cabal and everybody knows.
But I'll tell you this.
If you believe that, you will make the cabal stronger.
Right. Because you'll act inside that there's somebody doing it to you. And your energy will go there instead of building the new world.
I'm asking you because for me it's the logic. Maybe once you understand it.
But again, think about what it took you to go through to that. And you didn't once know it either, and I didn't either. And it took you unwinding your entire current beliefs and resetting a new set of beliefs.
and because that's such a big challenge like it to accept this new reality you have to realize
the other reality that you had always been promoting and was was part of your success and
rise of power stole from people right and that might be a bridge too far for people to to face
their own ego so it's easier just to discount the new and and stay stay stuck put your head in the
Yeah. As what you mentioned, humility is the most underrated quality in a human being.
Let's use the U.S. as an example. The framers of the Constitution said it had to be unhard money.
They knew these risks. That hard money created a very thriving, they called it the great deflation,
and middle class was increasing, increasing, and many people moved from Europe to North America
or to US to take advantage of the free market. More ideas, more competition, better value.
The Wild West, the entire formation of the US was from the free market because of what the framers
gave it. And the free markets are far more productive than any other market. People move
to them so those ideas can thrive. And so that was the abundance that was created out of that.
And then more and more banks were created, tons of banks, regional banks, and it was based on
based on hard money.
And then some of those banks,
and this is largely what the Federal Reserve created,
started to realize, and you could cause a credit crisis.
You could over lend and then you could consolidate.
And then the people in that crisis
would always turn to the government and say, save us.
So that was literally the creation of the Federal Reserve
to be able to save people from the same thing
that they created.
So essentially the debt that you're papering over,
if you keep on moving it up the stack,
then there's nowhere higher to go than the government.
And then the government moves it under their books.
I mean, it gets bigger and bigger at the government level
as the government bails out everybody underneath.
So it's just a thing that just always happens
because we, on the other side, turn to some
to blame for our taking more risk.
And you'll see that play out in Bitcoin.
You'll see that play out in a whole bunch of other things
as people take risk in centralizing their Bitcoin.
You're gonna see the same game getting played out.
What are the consequences?
The consequences are instability in a system
that must forever grow more debt
or face complete and utter collapse completely.
And so because we won't let this system face
complete and utter collapse,
we will always vote for more debt.
So it isn't the government, it's us.
How do you see the end of this?
So these reset happen through war.
Yeah, that's right.
And how they happen is you have to convince
the people in your country that there's an enemy
within the country and you divide your nation.
And then once you've divided it and then take more control
and more power from them,
And it's building more and more instability
because it's on broken money.
It's stealing from them to take more control.
You have to create a bigger enemy.
You have to create a bigger problem that you have to solve.
Whether that problem is COVID, whether that problem is Russia,
whether that problem is China,
you have to create a bigger enemy for the same people
to then trust you to be able to save them.
You have to kill millions of people all over the world.
And then the winner of that war,
which there's really no winners of that war,
go and reset all the institutions and start again.
And the same thing happens again.
What don't people get about inflation?
Everything.
They don't really realize it's not natural.
They're measuring inflation from zero.
They should be measuring inflation
from the productivity rate of the world. You can't measure what I'm describing because it's
a new system. It's the productivity rate of the world. It should be decreasing prices at an
exponential rate. And most people are, they're only looking at the manipulated inflation rate
and blaming governments for the manipulated inflation rate without realizing that that's
only the top of the iceberg. The way bigger part of the iceberg is underneath the zero
and prices should be falling.
Can you explain a little bit more that idea?
So when I say the natural state of the free market is deflation,
everything that exists today
and every entrepreneur trying to create more value,
the entrepreneur has to create more value
for you to move your time from what exists today to the new thing.
And the entrepreneur has to a lot of times create 10 times more value to break your purchasing power from what you do.
Because you'd just rather stay.
You do the same thing over and over.
And you have to see major in value for you to move.
So if the entrepreneur doesn't do that, they go broke.
If the entrepreneur does that, you use their service or product or whatever.
So you are an intricate part of the system that must bring prices down.
Not keep prices stable.
Must bring prices down because just think about what you do today, what you use.
You'll always search for more value.
Everybody does.
You're not looking to get fleeced all the time.
You're constantly looking for more value.
And we use the things and the things that the entrepreneurs challenge the status quo
and create more value.
and then we use that. And then that creates value for them, which creates more competition for them,
that entrepreneurs, that new entrepreneurs take that value and make it better.
The output of that, if you use that, has to be deflation.
Yeah.
Right? Not 0% inflation. So then ask, if that's the free market, where does inflation come from?
And it only comes from one place, from printing money, from manipulating currency,
to stop that from happening and make prices go up.
So the question was, what don't people get about inflation?
Why don't they get it?
So they're so conditioned to believe that inflation is normal
and that it comes from some other thing of business trying to capture more money.
The business can't capture more money without a regulatory framework
that creates a monopoly because the free market will attack anything
anything that gives the biggest margin gets attacked first because entrepreneurs can make
more money by providing more value. So in the natural state is constant attack.
Monopolies can't exist in a free market. So all of the monopolies we know of are created
by manipulated market. So that process, what they don't get about inflation is everything about it.
It's just an unnatural thing in the market that is not just unnatural to the free market. It's
unnatural to everything else. There's a large belief in the world today that inflation is
required for a productive economy. And let's just examine that belief a little deeper.
Why? Because what it's really saying is, we don't believe you could trade together.
We believe we have to steal money from you to trade together. But if inflation is required
for a productive economy.
So some people will argue my case
and they'll say,
well, people wouldn't buy
if you had deflation.
Yeah.
Seems.
That's the narrative, yeah.
But doesn't that seem ludicrous to you?
Because you buy computers,
you buy TVs,
you buy things that come down in price
and get more value over and over.
You buy food, right?
You're going to continue to buy.
But argue the other side of it.
Is the only reason you buy
because if you don't,
people will steal your money. That would be a crazy way to wire the world. And so, you don't
buy because people steal your money, or that would be an insane way to build a world. You buy because
something meets your needs or wants when you want it. That's when you buy.
Yeah. How does government control over money affect individual freedom?
Yeah, it's connected to everything. If you had a system based on theft,
you should ask yourself, who wins by that theft? Does my freedom win from that theft? And then
as that theft got greater and greater and greater, and the monopolies that were mostly created by the
government regulation, those monopolies would… I'll give you an example. Who's trying to scare
you about AI. AI's gonna kill you, it's going to do this. The giant tech monopolies. Why?
Because if they can regulate it, then they can create a monopoly and a power structure
that takes from you. Because prices fall to the marginal cost of production in a free market. And
AI, a line of code created by other lines of code, costs zero. So AI becomes free. There's no risk to
you whatsoever. The only risk to you is when a control structure that you're living in and
breathing in and thinking it's somebody else and feeding the control structure, and all of that AI
is feeding on you, and you're on YouTube trying to get more views, and you're trying to make more
money in it, making it stronger and stronger, contributing to the same thing to try to make
money that's stealing all of your power. And there is no fix from that system. It has to,
that coercion. You see governments all over the world are now imposing things that are saying,
we'll tell you what you can listen to. Your communication channels, all of them,
are completely manipulated inside the system that's extracting more and more from you.
There is no freedom from a control system That control system must get worse It must drive coercion It must drive fear to keep you trapped in it to believe that there somebody else to blame Both sides Somebody else can fix it Both sides to keep you in it
every time a system goes too far one way, the free market comes in and solves that problem.
And that's what's happening today. So the money or the opportunity to solve that problem,
because what does the free market build? It builds value for you. And nobody uses things
unless it delivers them value. So a bunch of the early privacy tools that are being built today,
a bunch of what you use, and Noster and everything else, what you're seeing is the early beginnings
of these things going to crush the central control structure as it gets worse, because
that's where the value to society is.
Okay, I failed to say it.
Right now I'm thinking of the European Union, because they keep just putting regulations
on top of regulations.
And where is the free market really breaking that system?
So that's what Bitcoin is doing.
It's repricing everything and everyone.
And all prices are falling.
It's a perfect reflection of the free market.
Prices are falling in it.
But more so, you could argue that if it just stayed like it is now, then one day people
are going to attack it.
They've already, Bitcoin's been tried to be attacked over and over and over again.
And so there has to be privacy on top of that.
Yeah. And there has to be communication on top of that to get yourself out of the communication
trap that everybody's in inside the control structure. And that's early in building. That's
early in building on Noster, it's early in building in Fetiment, it's early on building
Cashew, and a whole bunch of different freedom technologies that will be lifelines for people
getting trapped in this other system. But that's actually where the greatest entrepreneurial
opportunity is too, because you're solving massive problems for people that are going to need those
solutions. Yeah. What's the emotional cost of losing trust in your money?
It can do two things. So, the emotional cost, each individual is going to act differently in that.
if you if you have agency if you believe you will want to fix this so then then you'll move to
fix the problem you'll move to to a solution set that can solve the problem if you don't if you're
uh if or let's just use different levels of frequency of people to to do that if you're mad
at the world and your response comes from mad at the world and everybody loves you because you're
mad at the world, you'll yell at it more and more and more and people will love you and you think
you'll think you're solving something and you're doing nothing. Right. And you see lots of
podcasters and lots of success and they're literally in a spiral. Their viewers are in a
spiral. They're in a spiral yelling at a world that they're making stronger and they have no idea.
And so why would they do that? And why wouldn't they see this? Because they think they're helping.
Because all of these people give them love and belonging and you matter. Yeah, you go get them.
And it just makes the whole thing stronger. You could put Joe Rogan in that camp, right? You could
put some of the top podcasters around getting influence from people who want to believe that
there's this conspiracy theory inside everybody that then makes it stronger, right? And nothing
changes. So, I don't know why different people pick different paths in this, but then it could
also lead to apathy. It could lead to, I can't change anything, and a complete checking out of
the system because you don't feel like you have agency. So, each different person, there's a whole
bunch of different places that could lead. And it doesn't do anything. It triggers you. And
you're the change in the world. You're the actual change. And depending what frequency you're
looking at the world in, it's a mirror of your beliefs. The person who has apathy and doesn't
believe that they can change, they're right. The person who's yelling it and making it stronger and
and all the people that are feeding that back,
they're right, right, from their perspective.
A person that is moving their agency
to create a better world is right from their perspective.
And all those perspectives happen at the same time.
How do you think trust in governments
has shaped the modern economy?
It's funny, I think if you asked a general question
around trust in governments,
I think you would get a mostly negative answer
to there would be a very big lack of trust in governments,
no matter what parties.
Yet it just keeps on reinforcing on itself.
So all of these structures are the system,
that people are going back to the system
to try to solve the problem that can't be solved
by the system.
So I ask a different question,
I come to it from a different question.
What would the world look like in a free market?
What would governments have to do in a free market?
Governments would have to serve.
They might still charge taxes at first,
and then those taxes would come down over time
because they would be competing in a free market
to provide value to their citizens.
They would have to serve instead of extract.
And that means government would get smaller
and smaller and smaller.
We still might choose to,
and some people in Bitcoin wouldn't like this,
but we might still choose to pay governments,
but the governments wouldn't be able to lie to us.
They would have to say,
this is where your money is going
and here's what we believe society should look like.
And then they would have to deliver it
or they'd get thrown out on their ear, right?
And they couldn't cheat money
and they couldn't hide a whole bunch underneath through theft.
So they would have to tell the truth.
you would have a completely different government structure
than this giant Leviathan
that's kind of taking over a central planning of everything.
So what does it mean to separate money from the state?
It means the freedom that should naturally be ours
comes back to us.
It means the entire world serves us.
Every single person in the free market serves us
instead of a structure that controls us.
Has it been done before?
Never.
It's never been done.
That's why it's so hard to imagine.
How would people feel it day to day?
These are such hard things because people want to feel, how do they feel right this second?
And because these things take time, ask yourself this.
In the last 10 years, have you seen an acceleration of government control versus the 10 years before that?
Versus the 10 years before that?
And you can see what's happening.
that all of the things you're worried about and causing from your worry are getting worse and
worse and worse. Everything, name one problem that could be solved by just making up more units of
money. Every problem gets worse. Inside that system, that system can't resolve this paradox.
But the same thing is true for the opposite system. Every single thing gets better.
And so, the more time you move into the opposite system, one that is truthful, the more you leave
this system behind and your attitude towards the world starts moving from fear and apathy and everything else to hope and abundance and truth And so that individual action added to more and more individual actions is what happening It just so early that it hard
to see it. But when you're in that new system and you can see it, you can see it everywhere
and you wonder why people are still stuck even though five, ten years ago you were stuck.
Do you think it would be good for everyone or just for an elite?
Everyone.
I think because we've never lived in a free market, people have a belief, a false belief, that it isn't good for them.
But the act of us trading and competing to give more value, the output serves every single person because that output prices fall for everyone.
as jobs get removed by technology,
the jobs that get removed,
the prices fall by that amount.
And so people can live on less and less and less and less forever
as the competition intensifies.
The output is great for everyone.
Well, I would say,
except for the people who unnaturally control the money supply today,
they would have to deliver value to society
instead of extract value to be able to compete to create value.
Yeah, let's not forget those.
Exactly.
There's a bunch of them.
So a bunch of those people are being repriced right now,
and they don't know they're being repriced.
In 2021, El Salvador made Bitcoin legal tender.
In your view, what was the impact both in El Salvador and globally?
I think it was such a bold move to do that.
I was there shortly thereafter, that move.
And I had a big presentation there.
People were flying in from all over the world.
And the day before I went were all the murders.
And we still went.
But it was crazy.
And I think what happened there behind the scenes,
I think what happened there is the control structure didn't know
that Bickele was going to make Bitcoin legal tender.
And that shocked the control structure.
And then the behind the scenes, he wanted to create a false flag to be able to hurt his credibility as president.
And then he instead locked everyone else up.
And why I think that happened, I can't guarantee that that happened, but why I think knowing how things work, the coordination of media while I was there on he's a dictator.
and why would he lock these people up
when nobody cared about El Salvador,
how coordinated that response was
and how fast that response was coordinated
tells me that it was coordinated.
It was just all of the media that we saw in the US,
all the media that we saw in Canada, in Europe,
was the outcome of him locking people up
rather than what happened to create it.
And it just doesn't seem to pass the smell test
of what an actual reporter would actually look at to why.
So I think it was coordinated.
And I think it was coordinated because the IMF,
US, the entire control structure
didn't expect that he would go to Bitcoin.
And then they were caught flat-footed
when he locked everybody up too.
Because most of the time throughout history,
other people, this happens, and then that person loses their power. So he has a 92% rating in El
Salvador. And I'm not going to get into whether that's right or wrong. I just know he wouldn't
have a 92% public rating unless the citizens of El Salvador who elect him thought it was right.
and so who am I to determine something else?
And those citizens were living in a hellhole
for a lot of years until that happened without hope.
So I think he did some things that were very bold
and helped put Bitcoin and gain attention
and I think he's going to be in time,
I think he's going to be celebrated for that.
He's been a part of the structure that has done this
and they're still buying Bitcoin.
And if you look at what's going to happen,
it's going to create a whole bunch of wealth
for the citizens of El Salvador and freedom.
If Bichelli was a dictator, maybe time will tell,
then you wouldn't want to impose Bitcoin.
You wouldn't want people in self-custody.
You wouldn't want people spending in Bitcoin
because it would remove your ability to be a dictator.
Yeah, it gives people economic independence.
Exactly. It moves the power back to the people. So time will tell on all of this. It's interesting
to watch both sides of this, so opinionated, without living in the country and seeing what
it looked like before and after and what the citizens of El Salvador think about him.
I've been living there for the past nine months. We left Europe. In Europe,
no matter where you go,
everyone complains about their government.
It doesn't matter.
You can talk to a French person,
Dutch, German, Spaniard.
And one of the things that shocked me
when I got to El Salvador
is that Salvadorans are happy, optimistic,
and they like their government,
which for me is rare.
I'm not familiar with that feeling of,
you know, liking your government anymore.
So even when I went the first time,
when it was early in Bitcoin transition,
that's what you could feel.
You could feel a hint of hope.
And when I went back recently,
you could see that expanding.
You could see that,
you could see it now,
it's going to take some time,
but you could see that the hope in the air
and more people taking chances in the free market
because now they can
and they can create value for others.
And so compared to what it looked like before and what it looks like now, it's unreal.
It was a remarkable change in a very short order of time.
In 2025, the government reversed it under IMF pressure.
What's the signal to the world?
That's why I say we won't know for sure.
It could be one of two things.
that it could be
because Kelly is caving to the control structure
or he's using what he needs to
to be able to get the capital
to change a country
and get people into self-custody
and running nodes and understanding this.
I believe it's the latter.
I believe that Bitcoin at that time
isn't big enough or the people in big weren't big enough to be able to provide the funding that he
needed to be able to to create the change for a society and if the change comes too so for society
he can't he can't carry on the mandate there's lots of problems in el salvador other than
just your your gangs that was one of the core problems but the other problems to fix or
infrastructure, roads, water, sewer, all of that. These things can't be solved just by saying,
spend in Bitcoin tomorrow. Bitcoin's emerging as a base there, and it's early. And these things
still need to be solved to be able to create wealth for citizens and allow the free market to work.
So, he was in a little bit of a box because Bitcoin's early. Where El Salvador was and
I suspect the IMF used that pressure to be able to drive this Interesting enough he still buying Bitcoin every day And even though it says in that that he can
But we'll see over time which path he chooses.
If he chooses to help his citizens understand self-custody,
if he chooses to understand how they can spend in it
and remove that power structure,
then he may go down as one of the greatest leaders that ever lived.
Yeah.
Yeah. What's the signal to the world when they reversed that Bitcoin is a legal tender law to people in Africa, people in Central South America, Javier Millet in Argentina, everyone?
one. If you realize where the control comes from, and it's manipulated money, and they create these
debt traps for countries, but the countries have no choice, and they take the money. That control
structure has enormous power over our way of life. And it's trying to insert, it's trying to fight
back to stop Bitcoin in every different step. But you should expect that to happen. We should expect
that to be just the course of action because in 5,000 years, we've never lived in a free market.
So that means that control structure must be very, very strong against us. And I think what's
ending up happening is it's trying to insert, it's trying to, you just saw what Google did the other
day and then reverse the ruling on self-custodial wallets. But if you look deep into what they
announced and all the charts and what was okay and what it wasn't a simple act of of oh we made a
mistake somebody lower down made a mistake it was a coordinated attack from it was probably a trial
balloon to what's coming right and so we have to imagine we have to understand that all of these
actions that all of these coordinated entities where the power resides today are coordinated
and they can't allow, they cannot allow.
If Bitcoin, forget Bitcoin for a second,
the natural state of the free market is deflation.
Yes.
That opposes every single thing in the existing structure.
Even without Bitcoin.
Without Bitcoin.
It's true.
So it means that can't be allowed to exist no matter what.
They're two totally different systems.
They're inoperable together.
One must kill the other.
And so what you're seeing, what you're seeing play out all around the world is you're seeing the fight all behind the scenes.
Agencies, CIA, different agencies, Mossad, IMF, World Bank, government.
You're seeing all of this coordinated to stop this.
Because if this exists, most of that goes away.
Do you think it can succeed?
We can have a free market?
Why now and not before?
In my presentation, I'm going to tell you why.
Okay, today.
Tomorrow.
And a premiere here for the podcast that will be released after the presentation?
Sure.
Thank you.
If you understand game theory, which is really a mathematical process for a system for how we make decisions,
game theory explains us.
All of what we say will do versus what we'll do.
And prisoner's dilemma is a really good example of that.
If two people cooperate, the overall system is better.
But individually, if one person cheats on the other and says the other person did it,
the sum total of those is worse for both players.
And if both people cheat, it's way worse.
What you'll find is individual actors acting rationally are so scared of somebody else cheating them that they'll cheat the other person first.
And so what it means is through that is globally, not individually, we get worse outcomes.
Now, add a couple variables to that.
If you played that game over and over, iterative players, you'll see the best way to play that game.
And the best way to play that game is cooperate.
And then, but if somebody else cheats you, then cheat them back and then go back to cooperating.
And if they cooperate the next time, cooperate.
Because if you know somebody's going to cheat, if somebody cheated you the last time, then
what would you do the next time?
So you can see human action through this play out.
Now add a couple of variables to that.
Add a variable that you wouldn't get caught, right?
So you won't get caught.
And add another variable that you keep on increasing the reward.
$100, $1,000, $10,000, $100,000, $1 billion, $10 billion, you won't get caught.
At some level of you won't get caught when you're playing this game.
97.5% of human beings will cheat.
And why they'll cheat is either they'll cheat immediately because they can make money,
or they'll say, if I don't, somebody else will.
So they won't call it cheating.
Now, money is a perfect thing.
You wouldn't get caught, right?
To create a little bit, steal a little bit.
And then it creates so much wealth, so much inequality, so much power,
that of course we would fall into that trap.
So who are the 2.5%?
The 2.5% are probably all of the religious leaders that then were killed,
that then those religions actually had, in most major religions, no interest.
It was the foundation of a lot of these major religions.
And I think what we celebrated in those people was what we couldn't hold in ourselves,
an ability to stand up against that and hold integrity.
Because very few of us can.
Because we can be bought.
and the odds are if 97% of 0.5% of people can be bought.
So odds throughout human history,
you would just keep on repeating the pattern
over and over and over again.
So now why is Bitcoin different?
Yeah.
It's because 97.5% aren't bad people.
They wouldn't tell themselves they're cheating.
They would say,
I needed to do it for my family before it was done to me.
and most people will just go along with whatever system they're in.
So if it's acting like that, then more people will make that decision.
There'll be rational actors in that and they'll keep on making that decision.
Like the mirror we see of reality today with everybody inside the system
making those same decisions within the system.
But in Bitcoin, that's what the nodes are.
You can have anonymity and run a node.
all of the change has to come through you and so those those nodes are a wall of people
essentially inscribing the best of them into a system for the best of everyone else and it
produces a base that can't be cheated because in the past those people would be killed by this
control structure but because you're private on your nodes and these nodes are all over the world
can't even be found.
There are a lot of public people in Bitcoin
that can be targeted.
I'm one of them.
All that that lesson would do
is accelerate Bitcoin.
Why?
Because more people would build the privacy tech.
More people would build it faster.
More people would run nodes.
Game theory.
If government came after some of those people at that,
it would accelerate the demise of government.
Yeah.
The government of El Salvador recently extended presidential terms to six years and removed term limits without a referendum.
How do you see this move?
It builds on your other question.
It's a nuanced question.
So do I like that?
Does it say something?
that says, okay, is he trying to attract more power and change that? On one side of that,
I could easily make the argument and I could see a whole bunch of things saying,
this is dictatorship, he's taking more power, he's changing the constitution to support something
that shouldn't exist. And that is a valid argument for all the people that are making it,
it needs to be looked at. The other side of that argument is, would the citizens and would El
Salvador, if he changed the government today, carry on a path that was individual rights and
freedoms and everything else? Or would it just revert directly back to what it looked like before?
And I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer. I know. But when I look around at the
rest of the world and said democracies, every one of them is failing. Every one of them is saying
one thing and doing another. So every one of them is taking more power without referendums and
control. Every single one. Everyone in Europe, everyone in Canada, everyone in the US, everywhere
in the world is doing this. And then those people are looking at El Salvador and saying,
how dare you? So it's unreal. So I don't know the answer to that. I just know the system we're in
is going to be very chaotic and it's going to challenge people's belief sets because their
belief sets are built on a lie. Yeah, my question is, how do you see that move? Because I really
don't know what to think. And it's what you say, I come from ideas that are not working,
but it's true that he calls himself the philosopher king. That's what I mean. We'll see
in time. We'll see because if he's actually committed to Bitcoin, then he'll go down as a
hero to his people by removing his power naturally. If he wants to be a king, he'll take control.
And it won't look like self-sovereignty, and it won't. But I can't. There's no way I could know
that. There's no way anybody could know that. What he's going to do, what I would say is,
there's a 97% chance, 97.5% chance that he'll take control. But there was 97.5%
chance that I would have in my company taken the bribe. I didn't. So, we won't know until the
actions actually show what he does. I'm hopeful. It was years ago, Saifeddin shocked me with this
idea of the end of democracy and the beginning of monarchies, good monarchies. If he's a monarch
that gives to the people the power of the monetized system,
then could be a benevolent king.
Yeah, I disagree with that,
the way that the world is out of a perception
of what might have worked in the past.
And we don't have a playbook for what's going to look.
There is no word for democracy, capitalism, communism.
There is no word that describes where we're going
because all of those words are butchered by the existing system that we've lived in,
which is never a free market.
So where we're going and what systems look like, governance systems look like,
how we choose those governance systems, we don't know yet.
But there's no way to be a king in a governance system
where all of the power goes to the people.
Yeah.
Possible.
Yeah, it's true.
It's why it's so much easier looking from a clean slate.
And what does the new system impose Could that exist the way it used to exist It can can In your view does the rule of law apply here
Well, what rule of law? I wrote a thing a long time ago called Finding Signal in a Noisy World.
It's well worth reading. And it's had tens of millions of views. It's been cited and many other
things. And I wrote it to show people what was going to happen in a way that it was going to
happen, why all the blowups were going to happen in crypto and why crypto was worthless and it was
only Bitcoin. When did you write that one? 2022, I think. Maybe 2021. I can't even remember. But
it described exactly what was going to happen and how that was going to happen. But one of the
I wrote in it was that money is superordinate to law. We think law protects us. But if you're above
the, look at what's happening right now with Epstein. If you're above the money,
if you have the money, the law has changed to serve you. And so, laws are always changed.
By the way, if it didn't look like that, if money wasn't superordinate to law,
then what you'd expect is the places with the most broken money to have the best laws protecting people.
Yeah.
Doesn't it look the opposite?
Yeah.
When money is broken, the law is useless.
It's completely useless.
There is no law.
You have the money and you win.
And money is broken.
So most of the laws today are designed to keep money broken and to keep you poor.
Keep you trapped.
still there is some comfort in the rule of law but it's true what you say logically
i understand we have a belief and this is again the pendulum of this of the of the swing yeah we
believe because we're looking back on a rule of law when money was less broken that that we grew
up at a different time and as money's getting more and more broken the laws are changing to
support that. And it doesn't feel the same as when we were kids. And the world is changing so fast by
this control structure, trying to co-opt our individual rights and freedoms.
Most people don't know that just about everything, like you used to have to have a search warrant and
probable cause, right? It doesn't look like that anymore. All of your internet records and everything
you're doing are viewed all the time inside this control structure that is learning more and more
about you and how to make you think. What do you think happened to the Central African Republic?
The same thing that happened to El Salvador, the same thing that happened to South America,
Central America. Africa, not just Central African Republic, but Africa in general has
been stripped mind. Essentially, you've put people in slavery by a monetary system. It's happened
over and over and over again. And all of the internal wars and fights are created to keep
people poor and to be able to extract their natural resources to wealthy countries.
I'm referring to what happened immediately after they declared Bitcoin legal tender.
I suspect international pressure, IMF pressure, and I suspect the same thing that came into El Salvador.
These systems are opposite, right?
And if one, two, three, four, as more and more do this, then there is no need for IMF anymore.
There is no need for, the control structure falls away.
But a lot of these leaders are actually bribed or kept in control or placed by the same agencies or one that is really trying to develop freedom for their people is killed by the same agencies And this has happened throughout time because it a control
system that looks like this. Of course, that pressure would be exerted not to go to Bitcoin.
Can you elaborate on the role of the Central African franc zone and its connection to France
and the euro? Yeah, it's similar to how the US dollar is connection to the rest of Africa.
It's an extortion scheme that keeps countries poor and funds wealthy nations. So they have no
sovereignty over the currency, and the currency is constantly debased to be able to extract raw
materials and wealth to fund France. The sovereign individual talks about technology making this
separation possible, the separation between money and the state. Is Bitcoin what we've been waiting
for? Yeah, I'd go further back to this knowledge. This knowledge, we talked about it before,
throughout time, many different people, Mises, Buckminster Fuller, Henry Ford,
Tesla. Go back through time and you see the same theme of how money is distorted and how it costs
all these lives and its control set, but we keep following. We couldn't fall. We always fell back
into the trap, no matter how much we knew it, we couldn't solve it. And then in 1992, the original
cryptographers, cypherpunks mailing list, I think there were 70 people on it trying to solve this,
trying to remove money from state to be able to actually create something that could solve this.
And a whole bunch of those failed.
All of these different tries, Adam Back, I forget some of the names.
Stavroly.
Exactly.
Had part of the pieces, but not all the pieces.
And then Satoshi came in and put it, just like any innovation happens.
Fail, fail, fail, fail.
And we think innovation is just a light bulb one person.
But that innovation comes from all of these other people that then somebody else puts all together with difficulty adjustment.
and such and create something that actually works that can do this. And then it starts really slowly
and more and more people move to it. But if you take 70 people in 1992 to how many people are now
joining those 70 people, you can see how the world changes. And so, yes, Bitcoin solves this and now
it expands this amount of people. You've added your voice to this. I've added my voice to it.
And many others are starting to understand the system over here is so irrevocably broken.
It can't be fixed from the system.
It has to be fixed from over here.
And they can do something about it.
They have agency that they can just move their time from one system to another and add their voice and make this other system stronger, add their time, energy to this other system.
So, yes, that's what's happening right now.
And we're just very early in that process.
What are the risks of tying financial freedom to tech?
I would say most things are tech right now.
At the base of Bitcoin is you and me.
It's not the tech that protects Bitcoin.
It's you and me.
Because it's your node that you are the consensus mechanism.
And for the changes, we agree on a set of rules.
And every 10 minutes, we have to, did this meet the rules we agreed to?
If there's a change, we have to agree on the change.
It's not the tech, it's us.
And so what is the risk?
It's the tech isn't the risk,
because the tech is open source, it's been vetted,
it been the risk is the consensus of us If you can convince us to change our best interests to let say allow ordinals or allow nonsense in the blockchain then the blockchain could bloat and then create risk for
it working for a long time or centralize. The risk is us giving all of our power,
not holding Bitcoin in self-custody, not giving it to somebody else to hold for us,
that centralizes it more, that then comes and attacks Bitcoin and tries to change that consensus
mechanism, tries to get us through fear to change our minds, to protect our self-interest.
And so we should expect those attacks to be coming like crazy, because the only way to
attack this is to change that. And so we should expect coordinated attacks, crazy attacks. We
should expect these attacks to come at the same time as you better do it now for otherwise you're
going to lose it all because of quantum we should expect the most crazy attacks social attacks
to get those nodes to to change their minds to fight against each other to uh to insert something
that's a backdoor uh to this but if we're vigilant to those attacks if we know those attacks are
coming, because they must come, because it so much risks the existing system. If we know those
attacks are coming, and we think through those, and we had more voices to watch for them,
we are Bitcoin. It's not tech. The base of it is us.
Could decentralized money lead to decentralized governments? How do you see that working?
It will lead to that.
It will lead to governments that get smaller, more freedom between borders, and more governments
that are getting smaller and working together.
I'm saying way in the future.
It's going to be chaotic on the way through because these are new rules being imposed
by people who don't understand the new rules of the game.
So different governments are going to take different actions.
Can Bitcoin and fiat coexist or are we headed to a showdown?
They cannot coexist.
They're opposite systems. One imposes the free market, one does not. One has to kill the other.
And finally, can Bitcoin be the winner?
Yes. Bitcoin will be the winner. The question is, will Bitcoin be the winner in what time frame?
Even if Bitcoin wasn't the winner in the short time frame, because this consensus mechanism
made mistakes and let in a trapdoor,
you would expect, with the knowledge humanity has now,
to find another.
It might take another thousand years.
Another thousand years?
I think Bitcoin is going to be the winner in our generation.
Jeff, thanks for your time and this generous conversation.
Where can people follow you and your work?
um on nostr now and or uh ego death is probably uh ego death if you're if you're an entrepreneur
in the space building under bitcoin ego death look us up there otherwise uh on on nostr my website
which i don't update enough but please make sure if you're going to follow me you check in in
nostr you check my on my website for my end pub if it's not listed on my website at jeffbooth.ca
It's not me.
So there's just so many impersonators, scammers trying to take your money.
I will never ask you for money.
It's been amazing having you on.
I can't wait to have you back.
Until then, stay sovereign.
Thank you.