1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,000 As our first year of All in Bitcoin comes to a close, we want to say a huge thank you to our audience and every incredible guest who joins us on this journey. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:30,260 Adam Buck, Peter Todd, John Carvalho, Jameson Love, Rockstar, Martin Malmy, Trace Mayer, Alex B, Pierre Rochard, Jimmy Son, Jack Cruz, Mike Peterson, Nicola Borte, Willie Boo, Ben Perry, Abubakar and Erkalil, Jeff Booth, Derek Ross, and Max K. 3 00:00:30,860 --> 00:00:36,480 And a special thank you to Beatbox, our very first sponsor, joining us right at the end of this year. 4 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:40,820 Up until now, we've funded every single episode entirely ourselves. 5 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:45,640 Your support, whether it's a donation, a comment, or subscribing and hitting the bell, 6 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,440 really helps these conversations reach further. 7 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,480 And it gives us the push to keep going, to keep traveling, keep preparing, 8 00:00:52,900 --> 00:00:55,540 and keep bringing you in-person conversations like this. 9 00:00:55,980 --> 00:00:57,900 Thank you for being part of our journey. 10 00:00:58,340 --> 00:01:00,240 Here is to many more episodes together. 11 00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:02,760 CK and the All in Bitcoin team. 12 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:05,500 All music is composed by J. Woon Furious. 13 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:07,780 You'll find a link in the show notes. 14 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:11,660 All views expressed by the host or guests are solely their own opinions. 15 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,860 Nothing stated in this podcast should be considered a specific endorsement 16 00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:17,780 to make any particular investment or follow any specific strategy. 17 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:29,340 Everything started when Satoshi Nakamoto released his white paper in January 3rd, 2009. 18 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,440 That's actually not true. 19 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:32,580 No. 20 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,320 So the white paper was actually released earlier. 21 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:35,860 Okay. 22 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:42,380 Also, January 3rd, 2009 is the date in the Genesis block. 23 00:01:42,660 --> 00:01:42,920 Yeah. 24 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,940 But that's not when Bitcoin really launched. 25 00:01:46,340 --> 00:01:50,840 Well, when it really launched was a couple days later when the code was released. 26 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:55,620 And I think, off the top of my head, I think that was like January 9th, 2009. 27 00:01:56,740 --> 00:01:57,500 January 9th. 28 00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:57,720 Yeah. 29 00:01:58,060 --> 00:02:01,880 Because the thing is, what made Bitcoin Bitcoin was not that it had a Genesis block. 30 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:04,840 It's that people had access to the code and could run it. 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,740 similarly launching like the white paper didn't do anything it's just a piece of paper 32 00:02:08,740 --> 00:02:13,720 you know it's just like a description of the system it's not the system itself what made 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,980 bitcoin bitcoin was launching the code and making it available to the general public notably 34 00:02:18,980 --> 00:02:25,420 you know the very first block mined after the genesis block like the first block to actually 35 00:02:25,420 --> 00:02:31,400 be mined was probably not mined by satoshi it was probably mined by just some random dude who 36 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,780 downloaded the code. Now we don't happen to know who that random dude is because they've never 37 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:40,480 piped up, but very likely it was some random guy who just downloaded it, tried it for a bit, 38 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,800 mined a block and then deleted it. Can you explain in simple terms Bitcoin mining? 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:57,680 So the idea is, I guess, a bit like a lottery. By doing mining, your miner is do a calculation, 40 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,920 which it can't predict the outcome. 41 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,140 And the outcome, it's a big number. 42 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:03,260 So if you look at it, 43 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,160 it will have a certain number of zeros at the beginning 44 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,200 and it's unpredictable. 45 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:08,600 So your miner is just going to keep trying numbers 46 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,000 until it finds a number with a lot of zeros 47 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,980 and then it will send that to a mining pool 48 00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:15,180 and to the network. 49 00:03:15,660 --> 00:03:19,180 And the network has a minimum that it will accept. 50 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:20,940 And if you get enough zeros, 51 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,460 you can take the next block 52 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:24,320 which will give you the financial reward. 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,820 Effectively, it's a sort of race 54 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:33,040 between all of the miners to see who can find enough zeros on this calculation. And so it's a 55 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:39,180 little bit like throwing coins and seeing if you have a head or a tail. If you count the tail as a 56 00:03:39,180 --> 00:03:46,760 zero, you need a lot of the coins to land with a tail. It's extremely unlikely per try to have 57 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:52,700 the right number of tails, but there are a lot of mining machines and they're guessing a lot of 58 00:03:52,700 --> 00:04:02,360 times per second. So the total hash rate is, you know, up in the 500 exahash. So a tera hash is a 59 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:10,980 trillion. So this is 5 million trillion tries per second, which is a lot, right? So it's an 60 00:04:10,980 --> 00:04:18,720 unimaginably large number. And so even though the chances of, you know, doing it once and having 61 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,200 a fantastical number of zeros probabilistically. 62 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,260 They're trying so often that the chances of somebody 63 00:04:27,260 --> 00:04:30,040 finding a block in 10 minutes is 50-50. 64 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:31,660 So that's what it's doing. 65 00:04:31,780 --> 00:04:33,240 But it's really a game of chance. 66 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:37,940 So that's why the block interval can sometimes be 1 minute, 67 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,460 sometimes 20 minutes, but centered on the 10-minute target. 68 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,740 When I share quotes that align with libertarian principles, 69 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:48,540 people tend to agree because they just make sense. 70 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,860 Let's talk about these principles by exploring some thought-provoking quotes. 71 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:55,840 All right. 72 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:57,340 Here is the first quote. 73 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,460 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, 74 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,780 that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, 75 00:05:06,780 --> 00:05:12,140 that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, by Thomas Jefferson. 76 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,380 Do you hold these truths to be self-evident? 77 00:05:15,380 --> 00:05:25,880 I think all people are created equal in the sense that we should not be aggressed upon, 78 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,360 like we should be allowed to do what we want if we're not hurting others. 79 00:05:30,780 --> 00:05:35,100 Though I think a lot of people misunderstand what equality means. 80 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:44,340 You know, equality of opportunity, equality of outcome, these things are not guaranteed rights. 81 00:05:44,340 --> 00:05:50,180 especially when you're talking about rights and why a lot of people disagree with libertarianism 82 00:05:50,180 --> 00:06:00,280 is because libertarianism is mostly about negative rights, which means that you have the right not 83 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:07,220 to have bad things forced upon you. On the other hand, a lot of people who are more statists and 84 00:06:07,220 --> 00:06:11,720 when they talk about rights, they will often talk about what you would call positive rights, 85 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:19,860 which would mean things like you should have the right to get paid some minimum amount, 86 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:27,340 or you should have the right to receive some sort of subsidy or help for things. 87 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,480 In order to provide those positive rights, you have to aggress upon someone else's negative 88 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:39,480 rights. You have to take from someone else, often without their consent. So I think it's not really 89 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:47,840 possible to have a world or a system that offers people positive rights without harming some 90 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:51,860 people's negative rights. I was going to ask you how far you think you are from your vision. 91 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:59,540 Maybe 60% done with the first version. We announced a project called PubKey. PubKey is 92 00:06:59,540 --> 00:07:04,740 an overarching name for an ecosystem of software and protocols and apps that we've created. So that 93 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:11,380 consists of PubKey Core and PubKey App so far and a bunch of other tools. PubKey Core is sort of 94 00:07:11,380 --> 00:07:17,280 this system for using keys, like as you use a Bitcoin key, a different type of keys that work 95 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,740 very similarly. You use these keys in a way that your key is like a domain name. So instead of 96 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:28,620 having to buy a domain name from some authority, some provider, and then be subject to possible 97 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:33,740 censorship from them, you actually could take your key and you can turn it into a domain name 98 00:07:33,740 --> 00:07:36,660 or an identity, and you can have multiple of them if you really wanted. 99 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,760 So you take this key and you sign a DNS record 100 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,340 and you put it in what's called a DHT network. 101 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,580 A DHT network is the same network that BitTorrent uses, 102 00:07:46,660 --> 00:07:48,520 except we don't use it for that necessarily. 103 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,500 We use the structure of the network and how it manages this hash table. 104 00:07:53,060 --> 00:07:57,260 So when people want to look up where your website is 105 00:07:57,260 --> 00:07:59,220 or your profile or how to pay you, 106 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,880 whatever it may be that you want to control for your key, 107 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,620 they just go to that network and they ask the network and it's the most decentralized network 108 00:08:06,620 --> 00:08:13,340 on the internet, millions of nodes. So it's extremely censorship resistant. And now we use 109 00:08:13,340 --> 00:08:27,218 this to point to what we call home servers You get to have the advantages of a server but none of the disadvantages if that server goes away or kicks you off If that server censors you in some way you go and get your key 110 00:08:27,218 --> 00:08:33,498 from cold storage. You choose a different provider or you self-host. You update your record in the DHT 111 00:08:33,498 --> 00:08:38,418 and you point to that new place. And this way you don't lose any of the integrity of your data or 112 00:08:38,418 --> 00:08:44,078 any of your followers or any of your context. Nostra comes to mind. Nostra comes to mind 113 00:08:44,078 --> 00:08:49,698 And quickly for Bitcoiners, more than most other industries interested in tech like this, 114 00:08:50,078 --> 00:08:53,638 there are actually things like Nostr that are much bigger than Nostr, that have many 115 00:08:53,638 --> 00:08:54,718 more users than Nostr. 116 00:08:55,138 --> 00:08:58,498 Let's move to another passion of yours, which is Nostr. 117 00:08:58,698 --> 00:08:59,398 Let's go. 118 00:08:59,998 --> 00:09:02,458 What is Nostr in simple terms? 119 00:09:03,938 --> 00:09:13,458 So Nostr is really a simple protocol that enables exchange of this. 120 00:09:13,458 --> 00:09:17,258 like notes and other stuff transmitted on relays, 121 00:09:17,938 --> 00:09:20,658 which is really what NOSTER acronym stands for. 122 00:09:20,778 --> 00:09:23,998 It's a really simple protocol where I, as individual, 123 00:09:23,998 --> 00:09:28,718 I create these JSON files, sign them cryptographically, 124 00:09:29,058 --> 00:09:32,958 and send them to relays where they're available for anyone to download. 125 00:09:33,338 --> 00:09:38,578 And the first big application of NOSTER is social media, like recreating. 126 00:09:38,578 --> 00:09:51,638 But I really see as more people create identities, those private public key pairs and start creating JSON files and more and more use cases will arise. 127 00:09:52,158 --> 00:09:59,018 Private messengers, they're going to use Nostra as a protocol to exchange nodes between people. 128 00:09:59,018 --> 00:10:00,818 It's really a great protocol. 129 00:10:00,998 --> 00:10:04,438 And then you can go Google Nostra GitHub. 130 00:10:04,438 --> 00:10:09,478 you'll get to via Jeff's manifesto on what Noster is. 131 00:10:09,958 --> 00:10:11,298 Use that as an intro. 132 00:10:11,698 --> 00:10:13,678 Do you have a metaphor for explaining Noster? 133 00:10:14,138 --> 00:10:15,358 Yeah, I don't have a metaphor. 134 00:10:15,658 --> 00:10:16,238 That's interesting. 135 00:10:16,378 --> 00:10:17,718 Maybe I should develop one. 136 00:10:17,838 --> 00:10:19,238 Maybe we can develop it together. 137 00:10:19,478 --> 00:10:19,818 Maybe. 138 00:10:20,038 --> 00:10:21,738 But it's not that easy to explain. 139 00:10:22,378 --> 00:10:22,798 Yeah. 140 00:10:22,798 --> 00:10:26,838 The way that it works is if I took this piece of paper 141 00:10:26,838 --> 00:10:29,258 and I wrote something on it, like it's blank, 142 00:10:29,618 --> 00:10:30,678 and then I signed it. 143 00:10:30,678 --> 00:10:39,438 And I took that note and put it in some kind of storage that's available for anyone to come and pick up the note. 144 00:10:39,598 --> 00:10:45,298 It's digital, so that person taking the note, they're not taking the note, it's staying on the relay. 145 00:10:46,158 --> 00:10:50,538 But they verify the signature and then they know it's a message from me. 146 00:10:51,238 --> 00:10:54,758 So that's what really NOSTER is for non-technical people. 147 00:10:55,038 --> 00:11:00,638 Can you talk about the problem with private chats, NOSTER DMs, and the solution you came up with? 148 00:11:00,678 --> 00:11:11,518 Oh, yeah. So Nostr is censorship resistance technology. Privacy was not the design goal with Nostr and direct messages were like quickly glued on solution. 149 00:11:11,818 --> 00:11:18,858 So on Nostr currently, direct message content is encrypted, but the sender and recipient and timestamp are visible. 150 00:11:19,098 --> 00:11:27,478 So you can check out someone's chat history and you can see every message they sent and when they sent and whom, but you just don't see the content. 151 00:11:27,478 --> 00:11:35,118 so I have recently done an improvement on this. I want to do like signal style double ratchet 152 00:11:35,118 --> 00:11:42,118 algorithm so you would use session keys that are only on your device and you periodically rotate, 153 00:11:42,118 --> 00:11:49,118 create the new key so that provides so-called forward and backward secrecy so even if your 154 00:11:49,118 --> 00:11:57,498 main nostril private key is compromised, your past and future chats will be safe and also the 155 00:11:57,498 --> 00:12:05,338 metadata will be hidden. I have actually already done the first part of the double ratchet. I just 156 00:12:05,338 --> 00:12:13,298 need the second part, which provides even more reassurance if you use disappearing messages or 157 00:12:13,298 --> 00:12:19,378 if you delete your chat history, then it's gone for good with a second ratchet added. 158 00:12:19,678 --> 00:12:20,778 It's still working on it. 159 00:12:21,298 --> 00:12:24,098 Bitcoin is about shifting from trusting to verifying. 160 00:12:24,598 --> 00:12:27,958 What was the biggest shift for you in this process? 161 00:12:29,378 --> 00:12:34,418 Yeah, I think that there's just the idea that you can have this distributed consensus and 162 00:12:34,418 --> 00:12:40,678 that you can run your own full node and have your own rules that you're using to validate 163 00:12:40,678 --> 00:12:42,858 whether you receive Bitcoins or not. 164 00:12:42,858 --> 00:12:46,278 Like that whole process, like, I mean, that's a big shift. 165 00:12:46,518 --> 00:12:50,338 You used to log into a website or you log into your online banking or, I mean, that's 166 00:12:50,338 --> 00:12:51,978 just the way all those things were done. 167 00:12:52,038 --> 00:12:55,978 But now it's like, man, we actually like got these Bitcoins showing up on the full 168 00:12:55,978 --> 00:13:01,618 note and like really understanding and grasping like what we're doing, kind of writing about 169 00:13:01,618 --> 00:13:02,118 the gold. 170 00:13:02,718 --> 00:13:06,958 You know, one of the issues is like, you know, do the central banks actually have the physical 171 00:13:06,958 --> 00:13:07,998 gold they say they have? 172 00:13:07,998 --> 00:13:13,878 And in order to verify, you have to melt down the gold bar and recast it. 173 00:13:14,218 --> 00:13:16,758 And that costs a lot of money. 174 00:13:17,438 --> 00:13:24,358 And if you go outside of that chain of custody, that LBMA chain of custody, the LBMA bar loses 5% to 7% of its value. 175 00:13:24,818 --> 00:13:31,518 And yet for a couple of Satoshis, we're able to melt down Bitcoin UTXOs and recast them. 176 00:13:31,518 --> 00:13:38,578 and effectively assay that with 100% guarantee by running our full node. 177 00:13:39,138 --> 00:13:45,918 So not only are we able to protect those UTXOs much more cost efficiently than we do with gold, 178 00:13:46,258 --> 00:13:49,698 but we're also able to verify the quantity and the quality of them. 179 00:13:49,698 --> 00:13:58,358 And so that was a big shift in my own mind because, I mean, that's the new innovation that Bitcoin's really brought to the world, right? 180 00:13:58,358 --> 00:14:03,498 is like being able to do that in such a cheap, cost-efficient way. 181 00:14:03,738 --> 00:14:06,458 And then capital, of course, is now honing in on that and being like, 182 00:14:06,578 --> 00:14:09,118 oh, that's great, and we have a high stock-to-flow ratio. 183 00:14:09,438 --> 00:14:16,178 It's now the cheapest, most efficient way to kind of store capital into the future because of that. 184 00:14:16,418 --> 00:14:18,218 Let's talk about ARC Labs. 185 00:14:18,418 --> 00:14:21,298 ARC is a scaling proposal. 186 00:14:21,798 --> 00:14:24,398 Some people call it a layer two. 187 00:14:24,578 --> 00:14:26,638 I think it's a bit of a semantics conversation. 188 00:14:26,638 --> 00:14:32,318 So the way I like to look at it is sort of a multi-party contract on Bitcoin. 189 00:14:32,758 --> 00:14:35,198 You have two-party contracts on Bitcoin. 190 00:14:35,318 --> 00:14:36,898 Those are Lightning channels, for example. 191 00:14:37,558 --> 00:14:39,858 Two people interacting together, opening channels. 192 00:14:40,178 --> 00:14:43,738 And obviously through Lightning, those channels can be connected to the wider network. 193 00:14:44,418 --> 00:14:48,638 A multi-party contract, it really is, you could say maybe like a multi-sig almost. 194 00:14:48,818 --> 00:14:53,818 If you have a multi-sig that involves different signers, and those are really like on-chain 195 00:14:53,818 --> 00:14:54,738 contracts, right? 196 00:14:54,738 --> 00:15:04,898 But the idea with ARK is to get a group of people together, basically team them up with a server that acts as another party in that contract. 197 00:15:05,838 --> 00:15:20,738 And through the interaction with this server, the people that are involved in ARK service or with the ARK server are able to batch off-chain transactions into a single on-chain transaction. 198 00:15:21,298 --> 00:15:23,658 There's this idea of like a shared UTXO. 199 00:15:23,658 --> 00:15:34,298 And why shared UTXOs are important is realistically, Lightning alone is not sufficient to scale the adoption of Bitcoin to the entire world. 200 00:15:34,298 --> 00:15:46,858 But this arrangement of shared UTXO is sort of coordinated with this entity, which is the ARK server, who posts regularly, periodically a transaction on-chain. 201 00:15:47,198 --> 00:15:56,378 And within that on-chain transaction is confined a bunch of different individuals that have their own shares and they can exchange their shares between each other. 202 00:15:56,378 --> 00:16:01,918 So it becomes kind of like really this off-chain construct that is kind of like UTXO native. 203 00:16:01,918 --> 00:16:21,038 So it's the same model of transactions that Bitcoin uses, uses the same Bitcoin script primitives that Bitcoin use, but really allows you to amortize the cost of almost a limitless amount of Bitcoin operations into a much smaller on-chain footprint. 204 00:16:21,038 --> 00:16:28,298 ARK is super interesting ways to scale Bitcoin script, which is like scale all those cool 205 00:16:28,298 --> 00:16:31,858 things that you can do on chain, but that are too expensive. 206 00:16:31,858 --> 00:16:52,496 You just do them off chain and then you kind of like batch the outcome So like almost like the settlement in single shared UTXOs What drives you totally insane Right now it really around environmentalism So I think that the environmentalist movement 207 00:16:52,496 --> 00:17:02,016 has been hijacked by the carbon cult that wants to use carbon emissions and global warming 208 00:17:02,016 --> 00:17:08,716 as a way of controlling the global economy. And that's their priority, rather than having a 209 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:15,116 priority of let's improve the environment and let's clean it up. Because I think that there's 210 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:22,976 lots of forms of pollution that are far easier to address than carbon emissions. So for example, 211 00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:29,696 seed oils in our food are pollution, right? You've got people who are feeding their children 212 00:17:29,696 --> 00:17:36,796 engine oil. And people are getting sick from all of this. You've got an obesity epidemic. 213 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:44,616 It's having just tremendous devastating costs on society today. And then they're obsessed with 214 00:17:44,616 --> 00:17:51,236 carbon emissions in 2050. You've got microplastics. So just tiny pieces of plastic in the food supply 215 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:57,176 that we're all eating. We're eating microplastics. Terrible form of pollution. Not a priority. No, 216 00:17:57,176 --> 00:18:02,116 of the priority is making sure that you don't use electricity because of the indirect carbon 217 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:08,076 emission. So that I think is what drives me crazy. I think that because the way that we address 218 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:15,516 all the forms of real pollution is through technological progress, through increased energy 219 00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:20,396 use, and plenty of countries, whether it's France and the United States, struggle with the problem 220 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:27,656 of litter, right? Trash out in the streets. And what we need are robots that automatically go 221 00:18:27,656 --> 00:18:30,956 around and pick up the trash, right? And that takes up technology and that takes up lots of 222 00:18:30,956 --> 00:18:35,976 electricity, but it's good for the environment. And so the modern environmentalist movement is 223 00:18:35,976 --> 00:18:43,316 actually a form of pagan worship where they worship the sun, so they like solar. They worship 224 00:18:43,316 --> 00:18:50,156 Gaia, Mother Nature. They want degrowth and they hate humans, right? They see humans as a form of 225 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:55,756 cancer on Earth and that they want to see the population decrease. And so I think that they're 226 00:18:55,756 --> 00:19:03,756 just kind of a lunatic religion that's not grounded in enlightenment values of human dignity and 227 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:08,836 reason. Well said. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Bitbox, the Bitcoin hardware 228 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:15,316 wallet that guards your sovereignty. The Bitcoin-only Bitbox 02 Nova is Swiss-built, intuitive, 229 00:19:15,316 --> 00:19:21,676 fully open source, comes with a micro SD card and is protected by a secure element. So keep your 230 00:19:21,676 --> 00:19:28,176 Bitcoin on your Bitbox offline and safe where it belongs. Go to bitbox.swiss and use code 231 00:19:28,176 --> 00:19:34,456 allinbitcoin for 5% off or check the show notes. Does government intervention ever truly solve 232 00:19:34,456 --> 00:19:43,616 the problem it seeks to address? No, it doesn't. And this is kind of obvious when you look at a 233 00:19:43,616 --> 00:19:51,296 place like san francisco uh or i guess california more broadly um they spend an insane amount of 234 00:19:51,296 --> 00:19:58,516 money on homelessness right and they have been for many years uh but why isn't homelessness 235 00:19:58,516 --> 00:20:04,496 getting eliminated right they i mean sam the city of san francisco spends like a billion dollars a 236 00:20:04,496 --> 00:20:11,816 year on homelessness like over the past 15 years it's actually gotten worse so what what's going on 237 00:20:11,816 --> 00:20:21,616 Well, it turns out that when they're spending a billion dollars, they assign it to some government agency or NGO or whatever. 238 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:29,956 And for those people, their priority is not eliminating homelessness, even though that's in their charter or whatever. 239 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:31,716 They want to keep their jobs. 240 00:20:31,796 --> 00:20:35,096 If they eliminated homelessness, they would be out of a job. 241 00:20:35,096 --> 00:20:40,956 So it's in their interest to continue it and make it actually kind of worse. 242 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:43,496 So they get a bigger budget and then they get paid more. 243 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:49,176 So this happens all over the economy where you don't have competition, right? 244 00:20:49,176 --> 00:20:54,196 Because if you had competition, like, you know, somebody makes burritos here and somebody 245 00:20:54,196 --> 00:21:00,056 makes burritos here and the ones over there kind of stink, then, you know, the one that 246 00:21:00,056 --> 00:21:01,276 does better wins. 247 00:21:01,456 --> 00:21:07,016 If you don't have competition and you're just sort of pouring money into a black hole, the 248 00:21:07,016 --> 00:21:08,456 problem only gets worse. 249 00:21:08,456 --> 00:21:11,956 And this is true of almost everything. 250 00:21:12,136 --> 00:21:19,676 And it's kind of counterintuitive because the normal voter is like, okay, well, we want to improve education. 251 00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:22,156 So we should give more money to the Department of Education. 252 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:24,716 And then they give more money to the Department of Education. 253 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:25,536 What happens? 254 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:26,136 It gets worse. 255 00:21:27,016 --> 00:21:30,356 And they ask for even more money. 256 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:43,056 And there are all these like US school districts where they spend more money per pupil like in a lot of these inner cities than like the suburbs. 257 00:21:43,056 --> 00:21:45,736 And they do like worse and worse and worse. 258 00:21:45,896 --> 00:21:46,136 Why? 259 00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:50,736 Because there's nobody motivated to go and actually fix this stuff. 260 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:51,576 There's no competition. 261 00:21:51,776 --> 00:21:53,416 It's just pouring money down a black hole. 262 00:21:53,976 --> 00:21:57,396 So, yeah, like money doesn't solve this thing. 263 00:21:57,396 --> 00:22:05,036 And we pretend that it does, but absent competition, absent market forces, it doesn't do anything. 264 00:22:05,116 --> 00:22:06,596 It actually makes the problem much worse. 265 00:22:07,176 --> 00:22:09,236 You are frustrated about El Salvador? 266 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:09,756 Yeah. 267 00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:10,536 Why is that? 268 00:22:11,256 --> 00:22:15,456 Bukele gave the people of El Salvador the greatest gift that a politician could ever give. 269 00:22:15,536 --> 00:22:15,676 Why? 270 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:18,616 Politicians never give people power and control. 271 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:19,936 Bukele did that. 272 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:23,276 He did that before he put in the exception regime to go after MS-13. 273 00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:24,936 So what does that tell you? 274 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:26,216 His priorities were right. 275 00:22:26,216 --> 00:22:28,036 Fix the money and then fix everything else. 276 00:22:28,196 --> 00:22:30,516 The country's completely changed in five years. 277 00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:32,276 But what's the frustration? 278 00:22:33,076 --> 00:22:35,596 Bukele has to build the middle class out here in El Salvador. 279 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:37,476 That's the single most important thing. 280 00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:44,916 But Salvadorians need to take their head out of their ass and buy a little bit of Bitcoin. 281 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:53,116 Because the whole country changes if they understand this very simple idea. 282 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:55,736 You don't even have to think six steps ahead. 283 00:22:56,216 --> 00:23:04,216 Just one step ahead. And Bukele, the reason I respect him, in my opinion, the greatest president 284 00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:10,676 of any country of all time. I used to put him behind George Washington. Now I think he's 285 00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:15,896 exceeded it. He is still buying Bitcoin now when he makes the deal with the IMF. He's telling the 286 00:23:15,896 --> 00:23:22,896 IMF, I'm going to do what's right for my people. But the people of El Salvador need to realize 287 00:23:22,896 --> 00:23:25,176 they all need to have strike wallets. 288 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:26,776 They all need to have moon wallets. 289 00:23:27,096 --> 00:23:29,816 They need to start saving some of their money, 290 00:23:29,816 --> 00:23:36,116 even if it's 5% or 10% in Bitcoin and not in American dollars. 291 00:23:36,256 --> 00:23:42,256 If they do that, El Salvador could have a bigger ascent 292 00:23:42,256 --> 00:23:46,716 than the United States did from 1850 to probably 1945. 293 00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:49,876 What's something you have changed your mind about 294 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:51,296 since starting Bitcoin Beach? 295 00:23:51,296 --> 00:24:03,756 and you got some hard questions um i think one thing i've changed my mind about is that there's 296 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:13,416 like a right and wrong way to to do things i've seen that really there's lots of different ways 297 00:24:13,416 --> 00:24:17,176 to go about having an impact. 298 00:24:17,536 --> 00:24:20,636 And so I think that's what's so great 299 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:22,236 about the way Bitcoin is designed, 300 00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:23,236 it's decentralized. 301 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:26,036 And so you don't have this top down, 302 00:24:26,176 --> 00:24:32,096 like there's one specific way to best have an impact. 303 00:24:32,376 --> 00:24:34,316 And so we're seeing now there's all these other, 304 00:24:34,316 --> 00:24:35,876 you know, communities springing up, 305 00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:40,316 like you see Berlin and now in Punta Mango, 306 00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:49,036 there's La Paria. You see that there's not like a necessarily right and wrong way. And 307 00:24:49,036 --> 00:25:05,774 yeah I like seeing it done by different people in different ways rather than it being like this top down where I would have thought before like okay we need to have this formula and we teach everybody how to do it and the way it happened has been more organic 308 00:25:06,254 --> 00:25:08,514 People take bits and learnings of what we've done, 309 00:25:08,594 --> 00:25:09,574 they use the white paper, 310 00:25:09,654 --> 00:25:12,374 but then they make changes that work better in their community, 311 00:25:12,374 --> 00:25:14,394 and then a lot of times they'll feed back to us, 312 00:25:14,514 --> 00:25:18,014 like, hey, we're doing this, and it's really working, 313 00:25:18,134 --> 00:25:20,314 and then we can integrate that in our project. 314 00:25:20,654 --> 00:25:23,514 What's the most unexpected lesson you've learned? 315 00:25:23,514 --> 00:25:30,474 Probably that building in the Bitcoin world is the most challenging industry to work on. 316 00:25:30,694 --> 00:25:31,374 Why is that? 317 00:25:31,654 --> 00:25:34,754 Fighting the odds for everything. 318 00:25:35,674 --> 00:25:43,074 Like on one hand, you're building technology for someone individual, but those people are low time preferent. 319 00:25:43,254 --> 00:25:48,654 So typically they might not want to spend money on goods and services. 320 00:25:49,414 --> 00:25:51,434 So you have a lot of pressure from government. 321 00:25:51,434 --> 00:25:57,914 funding in this ecosystem is much scarcer than in other industries. 322 00:25:58,814 --> 00:26:00,974 If you compare crypto versus Bitcoin, 323 00:26:01,094 --> 00:26:03,654 there is like 100 times more funding in the crypto space. 324 00:26:04,494 --> 00:26:08,094 And maybe the Bitcoin for corporation is changing a little bit, 325 00:26:08,214 --> 00:26:11,574 but that still doesn't mean there's a lot of money 326 00:26:11,574 --> 00:26:14,554 for people building tools in the Bitcoin ecosystem. 327 00:26:15,614 --> 00:26:20,494 So building as an entrepreneur in the Bitcoin space is very challenging. 328 00:26:20,494 --> 00:26:22,934 and when I started six years ago 329 00:26:22,934 --> 00:26:26,234 I would not have guessed that it would be as challenging. 330 00:26:26,854 --> 00:26:31,534 So do you trust stablecoins not to be frozen or confiscated 331 00:26:31,534 --> 00:26:34,714 in a major financial or government crisis? 332 00:26:34,714 --> 00:26:40,554 You know I wouldn't put in my bank cash 333 00:26:40,554 --> 00:26:45,114 any significant amount because of that bail-in threshold. 334 00:26:45,114 --> 00:27:02,634 In terms of Tether or Circle or, you know, there's what changes every day, but I think it's around 170 billion US dollars in that pool of capital. 335 00:27:03,574 --> 00:27:06,634 Is the US government coming in to freeze that? 336 00:27:06,634 --> 00:27:19,974 They might take the money out of your bank account, but to take $170 billion from Tether or Circle, who's going to buy their T-bills if they do that? 337 00:27:20,914 --> 00:27:31,694 The US government requires buyers of their debt, and the fastest growing buyer of debt is Tether right now. 338 00:27:31,694 --> 00:27:43,594 In fact, if Bitcoin price goes over the next 10 years to a million dollars, the T-bill buying, the short-dated T-bill buying is more than enough to replace China who have stopped buying the T-bills. 339 00:27:43,734 --> 00:27:47,354 So the US government debt is reliant on stable coins growing. 340 00:27:47,674 --> 00:27:54,454 So I don't think they're going to freeze that because that's kind of committing suicide on their debt. 341 00:27:54,454 --> 00:28:01,594 They could do it, but that would be an absolute crisis, like absolute crisis, a fall of a nation state. 342 00:28:01,694 --> 00:28:03,094 that could happen. 343 00:28:03,374 --> 00:28:03,614 Yeah. 344 00:28:03,934 --> 00:28:04,534 But, you know, 345 00:28:04,694 --> 00:28:06,074 like if that happens, 346 00:28:06,234 --> 00:28:07,854 the nation state's going down. 347 00:28:08,574 --> 00:28:08,754 Yeah. 348 00:28:09,374 --> 00:28:09,934 That could happen. 349 00:28:11,234 --> 00:28:13,274 So you've done a lot of explaining. 350 00:28:13,834 --> 00:28:15,614 What's the one thing you wish 351 00:28:15,614 --> 00:28:17,574 someone had explained to you? 352 00:28:19,194 --> 00:28:20,294 I wish 353 00:28:20,294 --> 00:28:23,594 that I would have had 354 00:28:23,594 --> 00:28:27,474 and not pertaining to Bitcoin specifically, 355 00:28:27,634 --> 00:28:28,974 but I wish I would have had 356 00:28:28,974 --> 00:28:35,454 any sort of financial education growing up. I had nothing. You get out of school, 357 00:28:35,754 --> 00:28:47,394 they don't teach you a damn thing. And so I entered adulthood with no ability to save every 358 00:28:47,394 --> 00:28:55,094 dollar I earned, I spent not only understanding of just personal finances or the financial system 359 00:28:55,094 --> 00:29:04,614 itself, but just habits as well. And so if somebody had taught me how to properly, you know, 360 00:29:04,694 --> 00:29:09,554 spend less than you earn and manage personal finances, that would have been a huge help. 361 00:29:09,554 --> 00:29:17,854 Because even early on in Bitcoin, it helped me. Bitcoin itself taught me that through pain. 362 00:29:17,854 --> 00:29:37,114 Yeah. Right. Like, you know, Bitcoin was the first time that I ever learned to save whatsoever because there was an incentive to do so. But I also didn't stem the bad habits yet. 363 00:29:37,114 --> 00:29:44,594 and so doing things like oh i'm gonna pay off a credit card with bitcoin but i hadn't addressed 364 00:29:44,594 --> 00:29:49,314 the underlying issue which was i racked up my credit card because i was spending more than i 365 00:29:49,314 --> 00:29:57,854 earned and so i some of the most regretful moments were oh i'll pay off that credit card with bitcoin 366 00:29:57,854 --> 00:30:03,614 the bitcoin would be worth so much more now and on top of that the credit card just got racked up 367 00:30:03,614 --> 00:30:11,914 again and so yeah you i had to learn like oh bitcoin isn't fixing my problem i need to fix me 368 00:30:11,914 --> 00:30:19,494 and then i'll be able to thrive with bitcoin this resonates with so many people yes what's your 369 00:30:19,494 --> 00:30:26,274 biggest fear for bitcoin core over the next five years uh like i said that we have a walled garden 370 00:30:26,274 --> 00:30:32,634 i think it's again it's very very easy and we've seen in other ecosystems and open source where 371 00:30:32,634 --> 00:30:38,614 it starts off with good intentions around hygiene when it comes to how you talk to people 372 00:30:38,614 --> 00:30:43,294 or what is a productive conversation, what is spamming, ironically. 373 00:30:44,174 --> 00:30:50,274 And I think it's very, very easy for developers that are highly involved or even maintainers 374 00:30:50,274 --> 00:30:56,234 to start to be a little bit unnecessarily antagonistic to people that maybe aren't 375 00:30:56,234 --> 00:31:01,374 constructively criticizing them and marking that as spam or locking conversations and 376 00:31:01,374 --> 00:31:05,474 things around that, I think it's going to be one of the bigger challenges for us, even more so than 377 00:31:05,474 --> 00:31:10,814 funding developers to put in code changes. I think we have to be really, really careful about that 378 00:31:10,814 --> 00:31:15,054 human element around creating a division between the people that use the code versus those that 379 00:31:15,054 --> 00:31:19,674 build it. As a non-technical person, I think you need to leave the technical stuff to the technical 380 00:31:19,674 --> 00:31:24,794 people. But I also think that the technical people should be able to explain what they are doing 381 00:31:24,794 --> 00:31:27,734 in words that we get. 382 00:31:28,354 --> 00:31:28,794 100%. 383 00:31:28,794 --> 00:31:29,954 I like that you brought that up 384 00:31:29,954 --> 00:31:31,894 because it's often overlooked. 385 00:31:32,094 --> 00:31:33,414 Like what I would say 386 00:31:33,414 --> 00:31:35,414 to the non-technical crowd is 387 00:31:35,414 --> 00:31:38,154 the moment it becomes obvious 388 00:31:38,154 --> 00:31:40,694 that a person's unable to communicate 389 00:31:40,694 --> 00:31:42,034 in layman's terms 390 00:31:42,034 --> 00:31:43,034 what they're trying to do, 391 00:31:43,594 --> 00:31:45,454 then there likely is 392 00:31:45,454 --> 00:31:46,454 either one or two things. 393 00:31:46,574 --> 00:31:47,534 One, maybe they don't understand 394 00:31:47,534 --> 00:31:48,614 what the hell they're talking about. 395 00:31:49,034 --> 00:31:50,514 Or two, they're trying to hide something. 396 00:31:50,734 --> 00:31:53,034 So typically you're able to call out BS 397 00:31:53,034 --> 00:31:55,014 when it comes to highly technical folks. 398 00:31:55,074 --> 00:31:56,534 It's very easy for a technical person 399 00:31:56,534 --> 00:31:59,034 to hide into all the technical jargon 400 00:31:59,034 --> 00:31:59,834 and make you feel like, 401 00:31:59,914 --> 00:32:00,674 oh, you know, I don't know 402 00:32:00,674 --> 00:32:01,654 what the hell I'm talking about. 403 00:32:01,734 --> 00:32:03,754 But a lot of that is kind of diversion tactics 404 00:32:03,754 --> 00:32:04,834 on the side of developers. 405 00:32:04,834 --> 00:32:06,674 And I see on the other side too, 406 00:32:06,814 --> 00:32:08,834 like, again, to answer your question directly, 407 00:32:09,394 --> 00:32:10,354 I think the best language 408 00:32:10,354 --> 00:32:11,634 when it comes to how to interact 409 00:32:11,634 --> 00:32:13,074 between the devs and the non-devs 410 00:32:13,074 --> 00:32:15,534 is, you know, the language of empathy. 411 00:32:16,614 --> 00:32:17,734 Like at the end of the day, 412 00:32:17,794 --> 00:32:18,714 like for technical folks, 413 00:32:18,754 --> 00:32:19,734 they have to remember that 414 00:32:19,734 --> 00:32:22,174 the folks you're talking to 415 00:32:22,174 --> 00:32:23,394 in terms of the non-technical 416 00:32:23,394 --> 00:32:25,094 are not as directly involved with the code base. 417 00:32:25,174 --> 00:32:27,434 So there's so much that they're definitely unaware of, 418 00:32:27,554 --> 00:32:29,914 not because they're ignorant or they're not intelligent, 419 00:32:30,054 --> 00:32:31,134 but because they're not aware. 420 00:32:31,734 --> 00:32:33,774 You're working on code and they're not. 421 00:32:33,934 --> 00:32:36,014 And I think on the non-technical side as well, 422 00:32:36,694 --> 00:32:41,614 I think really it's around trying to be as straightforward 423 00:32:41,614 --> 00:32:42,714 in terms of the communication 424 00:32:42,714 --> 00:32:44,014 and kind of the points you're trying to make. 425 00:32:44,114 --> 00:32:46,694 Don't beat around the bush with trying to beat them down 426 00:32:46,694 --> 00:32:49,494 to make yourself feel like you're on the same level. 427 00:32:49,694 --> 00:32:50,954 Like regardless, we're all on the same level. 428 00:32:50,954 --> 00:32:55,534 like the whole division around, oh, I'm a dev and you're not a dev, and there's like 429 00:32:55,534 --> 00:32:57,194 hierarchy, doesn't make any sense. 430 00:32:57,194 --> 00:33:00,794 And that's like the worst case scenario for Bitcoin land if we start to think from that 431 00:33:00,794 --> 00:33:01,794 perspective. 432 00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:02,794 What are the consequences? 433 00:33:02,794 --> 00:33:09,414 The consequences are instability in a system that must forever grow more debt or face 434 00:33:09,414 --> 00:33:12,654 complete and utter collapse completely. 435 00:33:12,654 --> 00:33:17,834 And so because we won't let this system face complete and utter collapse, we will always 436 00:33:17,834 --> 00:33:19,954 vote for more debt. 437 00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:21,752 isn't the government, it's us. 438 00:33:21,752 --> 00:33:23,232 How do you see the end of this? 439 00:33:23,232 --> 00:33:25,892 So these reset happen through war. 440 00:33:25,892 --> 00:33:27,512 Yeah, through war. 441 00:33:27,512 --> 00:33:31,112 And how they happen is you have to convince 442 00:33:31,112 --> 00:33:33,512 the people in your country that there's an enemy 443 00:33:33,512 --> 00:33:36,592 within the country and you divide your nation. 444 00:33:36,592 --> 00:33:38,992 And then once you've divided it and then take more control 445 00:33:38,992 --> 00:33:42,272 and more power from them, and it's building more 446 00:33:42,272 --> 00:33:44,812 and more instability because it's on broken money. 447 00:33:44,812 --> 00:33:47,532 It's stealing from them to take more control. 448 00:33:47,532 --> 00:33:52,892 you have to create a bigger enemy. You have to create a bigger problem that you have to solve, 449 00:33:52,892 --> 00:33:58,552 whether that problem is COVID, whether that problem is Russia, whether that problem is, 450 00:33:59,252 --> 00:34:06,072 you have to create China, you have to create a bigger enemy for the same people to then trust 451 00:34:06,072 --> 00:34:13,132 you to be able to save them. You have to kill millions of people all over the world. And then 452 00:34:13,132 --> 00:34:21,172 And the winner of that war, which there's really no winners of that war, go and reset all the institutions and start again. 453 00:34:21,552 --> 00:34:23,212 And the same thing happens again. 454 00:34:24,112 --> 00:34:25,212 Just an anecdote. 455 00:34:25,872 --> 00:34:28,152 We launched at the end of January. 456 00:34:28,772 --> 00:34:32,812 And by March, our account on X was suspended. 457 00:34:33,232 --> 00:34:33,952 So you know. 458 00:34:33,952 --> 00:34:41,832 And, you know, you feel helpless and nauseous because there it goes. 459 00:34:41,832 --> 00:34:46,832 all the content you created, you don't know why, 460 00:34:46,832 --> 00:34:49,632 then I think when it happens to you, 461 00:34:49,632 --> 00:35:04,540 then is when you get it You get like on Nosta I cannot have this problem Absolutely It can happen And if it would happen let say if whatever NOSTA app we keep talking about Domas 462 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,860 Domas probably won't do this. 463 00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:12,340 But for example, if Domas decided, I don't like you and I'm going to ban you, that sucks. 464 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,260 But okay, I'll take my profile, my NSEC. 465 00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:19,300 I'll pop it into another app, to Primal, for example. 466 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:21,820 and I'll sign in and there you go. 467 00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:23,080 All my stuff is with me. 468 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,360 And then if Primal says, 469 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,780 hey, I don't like you, I'm going to ban you. 470 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:26,900 That sucks. 471 00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:30,080 Okay, I'll take my key and I'll pop it into Iris. 472 00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:31,940 There's dozens of other apps. 473 00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:34,380 And even if all of the apps for some reason ban you, 474 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,480 you can run your own app on your own home computer 475 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,380 that's installed and running on your home computer 476 00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:42,240 or home server. 477 00:35:42,380 --> 00:35:43,300 You can run your own. 478 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:44,880 Like if Twitter bans me, 479 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,460 I can't run my own Twitter off of my home computer 480 00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:50,980 or home server, I'm banned. 481 00:35:51,540 --> 00:35:53,420 Where Nostra, you have that opportunity. 482 00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:55,060 It's really hard. 483 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,960 You can't ban somebody. 484 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,180 You could play a game of whack-a-mole 485 00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:02,900 and relays could ban you and clients can ban you, 486 00:36:02,940 --> 00:36:06,800 but you can jump around and port your whole entire social graph 487 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,520 and all your content. 488 00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:09,660 You own it, so you can take it with you. 489 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,740 You can't really effectively ban somebody. 490 00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:17,920 Is there a wishing box for 2027 HoneyBudger? 491 00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:24,700 Since it's 10 years anniversary, I definitely want to have a good rooster of speakers. 492 00:36:26,140 --> 00:36:38,988 Definitely I want to have all the OGs coming in like again our our trio bright trio you know peter todd giacomo and adam because i think they need to be there and as far as i understand they 493 00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:49,608 will be there um as of uh speakers uh i would definitely love to have andreas back imagine 494 00:36:49,608 --> 00:36:58,348 It was one of the reasons why Honey Badger actually started and actually, you know, kickstarted the old Honey Badger. 495 00:36:58,468 --> 00:37:07,148 So I would love to have him back to give a speech or whatever, share opinion, because he's like super important for our conference. 496 00:37:07,968 --> 00:37:10,868 I'm trying to get Paolo to the conference. 497 00:37:11,328 --> 00:37:16,548 He's never been there, so hopefully he will join us in 2027. 498 00:37:16,548 --> 00:37:22,328 and I really enjoyed Jack Dorsey when he was in Riga. 499 00:37:22,728 --> 00:37:26,368 It was a good talk and I would love to have him back. 500 00:37:26,508 --> 00:37:29,988 I mean, there's a lot of good speakers. 501 00:37:30,768 --> 00:37:32,228 It hasn't to be necessary. 502 00:37:32,368 --> 00:37:34,248 A person with a huge amount of followers. 503 00:37:35,688 --> 00:37:39,448 It's just there are speakers who are not even on Twitter, 504 00:37:40,088 --> 00:37:44,348 but I always enjoy when they come to our conference 505 00:37:44,348 --> 00:37:48,128 and they always deliver high-quality opinion. 506 00:37:49,088 --> 00:37:50,428 We don't want to make it big. 507 00:37:51,108 --> 00:37:53,308 Honey Badger is always below 1,000 people. 508 00:37:54,568 --> 00:37:55,088 So we want to keep it. 509 00:37:55,088 --> 00:37:56,088 That's nice as well. 510 00:37:56,088 --> 00:37:56,188 Yeah. 511 00:37:56,688 --> 00:37:58,248 But for 10 years anniversary, 512 00:37:58,468 --> 00:38:12,576 we going to have a limited amount of tickets It going to be 1 So 1031 1031 is 31st of October That was the famous date of when the white paper was published 513 00:38:12,996 --> 00:38:14,976 Bitcoiners, they love numbers, obviously. 514 00:38:15,436 --> 00:38:17,416 So 1031 is 1031. 515 00:38:17,776 --> 00:38:20,376 So it's going to be a limited amount. 516 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:21,896 And if you don't get it, you don't get it. 517 00:38:22,036 --> 00:38:22,376 That's it. 518 00:38:22,716 --> 00:38:24,336 Well, it's a great wishing list. 519 00:38:25,116 --> 00:38:25,316 Yeah. 520 00:38:25,436 --> 00:38:29,856 And my another wish list is that we're probably going to make part of these tickets. 521 00:38:29,856 --> 00:38:33,816 really, really affordable, or even all of them. 522 00:38:34,156 --> 00:38:36,356 That's Andrea Santornopoulos all the way. 523 00:38:36,536 --> 00:38:39,416 He wouldn't go to a conference that was an expensive one 524 00:38:39,416 --> 00:38:42,676 because he wanted for everyone to be able to get in. 525 00:38:42,676 --> 00:38:46,076 But we also want to have a new event space. 526 00:38:46,316 --> 00:38:48,896 There's a nice event space in Riga, 527 00:38:49,396 --> 00:38:51,476 which is bigger than the event space 528 00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:52,816 where we're doing at the moment. 529 00:38:52,996 --> 00:38:53,156 Okay. 530 00:38:53,496 --> 00:38:55,976 So we're considering booking that one. 531 00:38:56,236 --> 00:38:58,176 We need to make a decision on the dates 532 00:38:58,176 --> 00:39:03,116 because every time we have someone who we want to invite, 533 00:39:03,216 --> 00:39:05,176 there's always some kind of conflicting dates. 534 00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:08,156 I hope it's going to be big and it's going to be interesting 535 00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:09,256 and it's going to be relevant 536 00:39:09,256 --> 00:39:10,936 and we're going to celebrate 10 years 537 00:39:10,936 --> 00:39:11,896 because it's a birthday 538 00:39:11,896 --> 00:39:16,836 and we have basically two years to prepare 539 00:39:16,836 --> 00:39:20,136 and it's way more better for us like this 540 00:39:20,136 --> 00:39:21,376 than doing every year. 541 00:39:22,196 --> 00:39:23,636 I know it's going to be great. 542 00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:24,556 We are going to be there. 543 00:39:25,496 --> 00:39:25,876 Thank you. 544 00:39:28,176 --> 00:39:37,676 We'll be right back.