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I envision that there will be some conflicts in terms of privacy.

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There will be part of the community who will say no, non-KYC.

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It's a must and some of the people who will say no.

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We want to KYC everything, we just want the price to go up.

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Now they are reaching out to us.

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Before we were like knocking on the doors, but it's happening.

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Privacy is a feature that you can use or you cannot use.

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And that's actually one of the reasons why institutions are using Bitcoin

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because it could be treated as a highly transparent asset, which it is.

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Some of the Bitcoins, they think that, you know,

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because they have discovered Bitcoin,

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they can, you know, teach people on other stuff.

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There's a lot of examples.

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What works for you doesn't necessarily work for other people.

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So, I mean, be humble and do your part.

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You are doing it, but with the Bitcoin ethos in mind.

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That's really cool.

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All views expressed by the host or guests are solely their own opinions.

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Nothing stated in this podcast should be considered a specific endorsement to make any particular investment or follow any specific strategy.

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Max, welcome to All in Bitcoin. Part one was just the beginning, so here we are, part two.

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Time to go deeper into Bitcoin and more.

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Okay, let's go.

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You've built HODLHODL, one of the first non-KYC peer-to-peer exchanges, launched the OG Bitcoin-only conference, and now lead Debitify without custodial compromises.

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You are a builder of new beginnings. What would you build for the end of the world?

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I didn't build HODLHODL. I contributed to it. So I'm a more contributor or less builder for the end of the world.

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If we understand that the end of the world is coming, I don't think you need to build something.

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You just need to spend time with the people you love.

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I don't think whatever you build, I can say I would love to build a spaceship to fly to the new world, which is obviously obvious questions, but I'm not an engineer.

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I cannot build.

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I can lead, of course.

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Maybe I can build a team who will build a spaceship.

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That I guess I can do.

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But again, I don't think if we're talking about this apocalyptic stuff, I still believe that human connection is the most important thing.

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And if you know something is coming and it's inevitable, just spend time.

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With the loved ones.

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With the loved ones, yeah.

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With the people you like.

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How do you see the role of governments in a decentralized world?

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well obviously a government and decentralized world could be just one of the parties involved

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in the decentralized world right it's not going to be the single party the single point of

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authority control and and it will be like a collaborative custody right where we engage in

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government but i i think that the government still can bear a certain amount of functions

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and i do think still whatever you name it but there should be some kind of authority

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over the society.

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The difference is that I think that authority

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maybe should be a less destructive power

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and more of power that can help,

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that can guide, et cetera, et cetera.

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And definitely if we're talking

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from the perspective of Bitcoin,

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of course, governments shouldn't be in charge of money.

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Or at least they should collaborate

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with private entities and figure it out,

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the best option how to recharge or restructure the money.

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Why is money so misunderstood and how do you figure it out?

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I don't think the money are misunderstood.

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I think the money is just manipulated significantly by those who are in power.

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You think people know what money is?

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We have a concept, at least, right?

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And we agree on that concept.

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It's something that I can use to buy service or goods from other people or to preserve my

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wealth or to create the wealth or whatever transfer. That's the concept, right? And that

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concept was with us since the very beginning, because people were always striving for, you know,

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some economical activities, you know, exchanging and doing this stuff. I don't think money are

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generally misunderstood. I think it's like the concept of what we know as money is just different

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at this point, but we still, a lot of people still think, and if things have passed, a lot of people

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still doesn't get the concept that fiat money is just like, you know, printing papers, right?

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It's just your belief that it has a certain level of value. But overall, I think that,

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I guess we should be back to the concept where money is actually, there's an underlying

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sporty facet like it was gold before i have hopes that the future of the money will be

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backed by bitcoin to certain level and how did you figure it out well i mean there's a good concept

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at this point it's stable coins you know and stable coin issuers just like tether is doing

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this basically they're buying bitcoin as well so you could argue and you can say that tether is

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partly backed by Bitcoin. Again, I don't know the mechanics, but I guess it's very generic and

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very macro level answer that, let's say, imagine that a certain government is buying Bitcoin on

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the balance sheet and continue to print out money. So they have a strategic reserve of the Bitcoin.

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And if you connect it with their own currency, it means that currency, kind of the debt of the

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of the country is supported by the strategic reserves of that currency.

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Do you think privacy should be embedded in Bitcoin's base layer or added on top?

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I think the beauty of the Bitcoin is that it's like fully flexible in terms of privacy.

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If I want to show to someone and prove that I have Bitcoin, I can do this pretty easily,

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right if i want to hide bitcoin and don't show it to anyone i can do this as well maybe not that easy

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as the first one but i can do that so the cool thing about bitcoin and i think it's highly

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undervalued feature of bitcoin is that privacy is a feature that you can use or you cannot use

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and that's actually one of the reasons why institutions are using bitcoin because it

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could be treated as highly transparent asset, which it is. So I think that privacy in Bitcoin,

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I'm totally fine with the level of the privacy that we have at the moment. Of course, it would

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be really great if we could have even more privacy, but still preserving the feature of disclosing

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something if I want to disclose. Let's say I want to go and borrow money from the bank,

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and I want to use Bitcoin as a collateral.

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I need to show them what I have to some extent,

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at least part of what I have.

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So I guess it's a really cool feature of Bitcoin.

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You can choose.

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Do you see a split between KYC and non-KYC Bitcoin?

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And what would that imply?

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I actually think one of the potential dramas

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in Bitcoin in the future could be between people

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who are more to the roots in terms of cyberpunk.

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They're more like privacy-oriented,

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non-KYC stuff, et cetera, et cetera.

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And with the people who will say, no, we want it to be like full transparency.

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Everything should be KYC.

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So I guess there's already happening a certain division in the community.

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And again, it's nothing bad.

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It's just like part of the evolutional journey.

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But I would say I envision that there will be some conflicts in terms of privacy.

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There will be part of the community who will say, no, non-KYC.

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It's a must.

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And some of the people who will say, no, we want to KYC everything.

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we just want price to go up and etc.

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Do you see Bitcoin primarily as a store of value or as a medium of exchange For me it a store of value That my use case But I know that for a lot of people it a medium of exchange

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And I can tell you that I have a theory that for developing markets, it's a medium of exchange

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because these people just don't have opportunity to store something.

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You know, it's like they're spending everything because they need to survive.

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And for developed countries, it's more like a store of value because, you know, it's like developed countries, people are earning good amount of money, they have some extra to save and they use Bitcoin as a store of value.

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Next up, Debitify. What's Debitify and why did you build it?

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Debitify is a platform for institutions to start providing Bitcoin-backed lending for private individuals and legal entities across the globe.

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I build it because, well, first of all, I'm a former banker.

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You know, I have a banking background.

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I'm from TradeFi.

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And then at some point, we just realized that there's a huge demand from institutional

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liquidity providers, but they don't have tools.

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And we can build tools.

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We can build tools and we can provide them with the necessary tools and they can use

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them and they can, you know, plug into lending markets and start earning money and using Bitcoin

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as a collateral. Why would someone want to borrow against their Bitcoin instead of selling it?

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Well, no Bitcoiner wants to sell their Bitcoin, right? At least there's way more people who don't

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want to sell it than people who want to sell it. For a newcomer, would you explain why?

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Well, for a newcomer, I guess it's like you see the prices going up and you obviously want to stay in that action and price action.

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You believe maybe that Bitcoin in a year will go even higher, but you need money now.

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How do you derive utility from Bitcoin?

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You borrow against it.

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And another thing that in some regions, borrowing is a non-taxable event.

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So if you sell, you pay taxes.

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If you borrow against it, you don't pay taxes.

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Let me play you a clip from my recent conversation with Willibu.

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Whenever you see a high interest rate,

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there's a lot of risk and there's even more risk of rehypothecation,

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unless you have a private key.

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If you do have a private key, then you can check it on the blockchain.

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That's why I want to move into that area of lending.

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with like DB5.

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That's the start of a whole wave

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of these types of lenders

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that can give you a private key

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so you can verify and not just trust.

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Yeah.

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Thanks, Willie, for a shout out, right?

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Can you explain how private keys

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protect both the lender and the borrower?

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Yes, it's a multisig.

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And with a multisig,

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you need to have your own private key, right?

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So you hold one of the keys to the multisig

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And the beauty of the multisig is that there's, let's say there's a set of private keys, three keys.

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One goes to lender, one goes to borrower, and one goes to Debitify.

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And with the multisig, usually you need to have a majority of the keys.

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So you need to have at least two.

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Then there's a game theory in play, you know.

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There's no single party that have unilateral control over the funds that lock in escrow.

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meaning that if you're a borrower you can be sure that your collateral won't be moved

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for whatever reason usually collateral gets moved only if there was a repayment of the loan

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or you failed to repay or there was liquidation so these there's a predefined conditions lender

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himself cannot do anything with that money he needs to negotiate or again there should be certain

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terms. So holding your private key is giving you more control over the collateral and more

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transparency of the collateral instead of just sending the money to, you know, third part custody.

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And then you don't know how it's stored. So what's your go to metaphor for explaining

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a multi-seek? Let's say it's a safe deposit box. And it has three keys to this box. And one key

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goes to banker, one key goes to your lawyer, and one key goes to you. And the mechanism in that

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deposit box works in a way that you need to have at least either your lawyer or your banker to help

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you open that safe deposit box. And even if you will lose your key for whatever reason, or someone

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will stole your key, you can always ask lawyer and banker to come together and open your safe deposit

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box. There was actually like, I think in past times there was like safe deposit box with that

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concept, you know, multiple keys shared between, you know, family members or business owners.

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And everyone has a bit of access, but nobody has a full access. So you need to negotiate. It's not

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that simple. In the unlikely scenario that three out of four parties or two out of three parties

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lose their keys.

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What happens then to the Bitcoin?

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If the majority of keys get lost,

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then nothing can be done, unfortunately.

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I mean, that's why you have multiple parties

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and we have different setups.

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We have setups with two out of three keys,

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three out of four.

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We have setups with three out of five now as well.

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So if you go out of business...

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Nothing will happen with the collateral

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and you can still restore the access to collateral.

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Debitify is just one of the keys and it's just the front end.

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Your collateral, your Bitcoin are still on the Bitcoin blockchain.

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And the other three keys, who holds them?

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If we talk about three out of four, lender, borrower, Debitify,

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and there's always a fourth authorized key holder,

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which is a backup key holder, which is an independent entity.

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Authorized by you or by whom?

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By all involved parties.

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So we just provide a list of authorized key holders

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and you can choose who you maybe trust more.

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For now, we work with a company called Anchor Watch.

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So if Debitify goes out of the business for whatever reason, you know who's holding the

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forward key.

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You always know who is like backup key holder.

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And obviously, you know your lender because it's KYC and you get familiar with your lender.

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And then you can just contact every involved parties, except for Debitify, obviously, if

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we're out of business.

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And we have open source extractor tool.

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So you don't need Debitify.

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There's no vendor locking in the way.

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So even if Debitify is not accessible, you can still talk with the lender and fourth key holder and get your collateral back.

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It's not like centralized custodial platform when you lock your collateral with them.

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And if they're gone, your Bitcoin is gone with them.

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Yeah.

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Let's say I want to borrow 100k on Debitify using my Bitcoin as collateral.

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Can you walk me through the process?

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so you as a borrower you go online you see the list of the offers you choose the offer that you

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like in terms of like duration of the long currency you prefer the rates l tv ratio you

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accept that offer do i negotiate the offers at the moment they're like posted by lenders and

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they're non-negotiatable there's different them but we are going to introduce a new tool which

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will be like make a counter offer so as a borrower you will be able to try to negotiate an offer

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and then you accept that offer you go through kyc process so you basically verify yourself

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if lender accepts you for whatever reason we have lenders from different countries

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some of lenders prefer to work with certain type of customers so they accept you and then you

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provide your key, which was generated thanks to the tech that we have, right? You provide your key,

225
00:16:21,238 --> 00:16:25,878
lender provides key, DebiFi provides, Fortkey Holder provides key, but that happens automatically.

226
00:16:25,878 --> 00:16:30,358
So you just press the button. We take those keys and create a multisig on the public Bitcoin

227
00:16:30,358 --> 00:17:05,176
blockchain uniquely created for your contract You send Bitcoin as a collateral As soon as Bitcoin is there lender gets informed okay collateral is locked in You can wire the money And that how it goes You issue four keys right One goes to you one goes to the lender one goes to the borrower and one goes to the authorized key holder as you mentioned What happens if the B5 and the authorized key holder disappear with two keys I cannot access my Bitcoin anymore because I lacking one key but you cannot access it either can you

228
00:17:05,576 --> 00:17:05,696
No.

229
00:17:06,296 --> 00:17:08,136
Okay, so there is no incentive to do it.

230
00:17:08,136 --> 00:17:09,436
There is no incentive.

231
00:17:09,696 --> 00:17:12,116
There's only punishment in that case, unfortunately.

232
00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:16,016
We had these questions on Twitter when people were asking,

233
00:17:16,256 --> 00:17:19,616
well, what will happen if you're going to collude with each other

234
00:17:19,616 --> 00:17:21,336
and try to get my...

235
00:17:21,336 --> 00:17:23,756
I mean, what's the point?

236
00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:25,936
We've been building this so hard.

237
00:17:25,936 --> 00:17:32,356
I don't understand how much money has to be in that particular collateral.

238
00:17:33,276 --> 00:17:34,936
And also, if it's a lot of money,

239
00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:37,076
then you know how the Bitcoin network works.

240
00:17:37,076 --> 00:17:39,216
You cannot hide that money, obviously.

241
00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:43,036
What's the point of ruining your reputation that you built for 10 years,

242
00:17:43,176 --> 00:17:46,176
your business that you built for like last three, four years?

243
00:17:46,376 --> 00:17:48,716
And I don't see any type of point.

244
00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:51,756
That's the beauty of the multisig, you know, there's no incentives.

245
00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:54,916
This episode is brought to you by Bitbox,

246
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247
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248
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249
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250
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251
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Go to bitbox.swiss and use code ALLINBITCOIN for 5% off or check the show notes.

252
00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:23,256
Where are the risks with both custodial and non-custodial platforms?

253
00:18:23,256 --> 00:18:27,116
Let's say the B5 versus strike.

254
00:18:27,116 --> 00:18:36,356
So first of all, as a non-custodial, again, there's no single company that holds your Bitcoin.

255
00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:39,236
You can verify that they're there.

256
00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:41,656
You have a certain level of control.

257
00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:43,956
Again, there's no custody of your funds.

258
00:18:44,176 --> 00:18:48,296
I mean, we don't have as a Debitify a single control over your funds.

259
00:18:48,296 --> 00:18:55,336
We cannot move it without certain terms or without, you know, combining all the keys

260
00:18:55,336 --> 00:18:58,776
and going to each other and trying to get these keys.

261
00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:02,316
I guess the security is the main point.

262
00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:03,616
Transparency is another.

263
00:19:04,096 --> 00:19:08,676
And you do realize and you understand how your collateral gets stored.

264
00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:10,516
And it's multi-sick.

265
00:19:10,656 --> 00:19:11,836
I mean, you can verify.

266
00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:14,596
We've been through multiple security audits.

267
00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:22,736
the trade-off of that is of course that custodial platforms they the user interface and the user

268
00:19:22,736 --> 00:19:28,216
experience is a bit more better so i mean it's a bit more easier for people who are maybe less

269
00:19:28,216 --> 00:19:33,816
sophisticated to use custodial platforms do you think it's difficult to use debify for a non-tech

270
00:19:33,816 --> 00:19:40,036
person i think it's uh i don't think it's difficult for non-tech person we we had a lot of different

271
00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:47,396
customers who are non-tech person. But I think if we compare DebiFi with custodial service providers,

272
00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:52,356
like just, you know, going with the custodial service providers a bit more easier because in

273
00:19:52,356 --> 00:19:57,476
many cases, you don't need to write the seed phrase, which we require in DebiFi. That's how

274
00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:04,996
you protect your key. And the onboarding takes like very, very less time. You can onboard to DebiFi

275
00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:07,336
in like five minutes, right?

276
00:20:07,336 --> 00:20:08,216
Okay.

277
00:20:08,216 --> 00:20:10,876
But for custodial platforms,

278
00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:13,556
it could be less than one minute, right?

279
00:20:13,556 --> 00:20:14,396
But that's...

280
00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:15,276
Yeah.

281
00:20:15,276 --> 00:20:16,976
But we are talking about trade-offs.

282
00:20:16,976 --> 00:20:17,816
It's true.

283
00:20:17,816 --> 00:20:22,236
I think that both of type of platforms

284
00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:24,716
has their use cases and their customers.

285
00:20:25,816 --> 00:20:30,136
I think there's a huge market and it's only gonna grow.

286
00:20:30,136 --> 00:20:31,976
We're actually very supportive

287
00:20:31,976 --> 00:20:34,516
of more and more platforms appearing there

288
00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:38,456
because this means that there's more and more potential customers for us as well.

289
00:20:39,456 --> 00:20:44,096
So it's like risks between custodial and non-custodial wallets.

290
00:20:44,216 --> 00:20:49,036
Non-custodial wallets require you to write down your seed, protect it.

291
00:20:49,176 --> 00:20:51,676
So for some people, it could be really intimidating,

292
00:20:51,936 --> 00:20:53,576
especially for those who are new ones.

293
00:20:54,176 --> 00:20:58,156
For custodial wallets, it's just sometimes for a lot of people

294
00:20:58,156 --> 00:21:02,396
who are new into space, it's just like password and that's it, you're in.

295
00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:09,036
but then again you don't hold your keys no my keys no my coins and i'm thinking of celsius yeah

296
00:21:09,036 --> 00:21:17,596
ftx yeah that was the the very bad examples i don't think that there are actually any platforms

297
00:21:17,596 --> 00:21:24,256
or companies that are left with that type of incentives at the moment in on the market why

298
00:21:24,256 --> 00:21:31,636
not i think that's most of the custodial platforms are run by bitcoiners and they just provide

299
00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:36,956
different service. You know, I don't think that someone wants to scam someone, etc. It's just a

300
00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:42,596
different, again, it's a different service. Some people want to want to have, I would say, less

301
00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:50,656
responsibility over their own like coins and faster and just, you know, better user experience,

302
00:21:50,656 --> 00:21:57,296
which is fine. Some people like our customers, they want to hold their keys. They want to be

303
00:21:57,296 --> 00:22:03,536
responsible to some extent and they care about security more. It's just different types of

304
00:22:03,536 --> 00:22:08,116
products and, you know, there's a niche and there's a customer for every one of them.

305
00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:14,996
But I mean, it was a lesson and, you know, a lesson proved that our approach with non-custodial

306
00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:20,916
things is a very good thing to have because there's no vendor locating and even if Devify

307
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:23,856
disappear for whatever reason, you can still access your collateral.

308
00:22:23,856 --> 00:22:29,636
Can I lend or borrow fiat on Devify and which currencies do you support?

309
00:22:30,856 --> 00:22:33,296
Well, as a private individual, you can only borrow.

310
00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:39,936
We currently have, our lenders currently provide fiat.

311
00:22:40,256 --> 00:22:43,856
They provide USD, Euro, Swiss francs.

312
00:22:46,016 --> 00:22:50,696
And as a lender, if you're a legal entity and you're allowed to issue loans,

313
00:22:50,696 --> 00:22:58,736
you can go and provide basically most of the fiat currencies out there if you have liquidity in

314
00:22:58,736 --> 00:23:04,196
certain fiat currency what's the minimum and what's the deal like well the minimum at the

315
00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:13,136
moment for a regular loan is 25 000 but we also have some lenders who have who provide smaller

316
00:23:13,136 --> 00:23:21,676
loans like 5 000 10 000 we also have card project which is a debify bitcoin back cards where you can

317
00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:28,956
borrow from 500 to up to 1 000 it's like basically on the go you get your loan in form of prepaid card

318
00:23:28,956 --> 00:23:34,956
and you can spend that on you know paying bills and i don't know ordering something in internet or

319
00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:42,356
buying some stuff offline at the moment the average interest rate is 12 on the card it's a

320
00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:47,076
bit more bigger because it's like a card and usually cards are a bit more expensive.

321
00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:51,236
So on the card, it's around, I think last time I checked was 14%.

322
00:23:51,776 --> 00:24:02,276
On the regular rounds, the minimum that we have is 9.5% for Swiss francs and it goes up to 12,

323
00:24:02,376 --> 00:24:03,156
13, 14%.

324
00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:09,076
I would say the average on the market at the moment, not only for Debitify, but the whole

325
00:24:09,076 --> 00:24:16,756
industry is like between 10 and 12. Can I lend or borrow stable coins as well? And what would

326
00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:24,016
the conditions be? Yes, you can. You can borrow USDT, you can borrow USDC. As an institutional

327
00:24:24,016 --> 00:24:30,596
lender, you can also lend stable coins and the interest rates are mostly the same, around 12%.

328
00:24:31,136 --> 00:24:38,016
You can get that type of loan for 12%. And the duration is starting from one month ending to 24

329
00:24:38,016 --> 00:24:42,016
months. Who should use DebiFi and who should stay away?

330
00:24:42,016 --> 00:24:45,956
Well, if you ask me, everyone should use

331
00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:50,036
DebiFi. I don't think anyone should stay away. But as I said,

332
00:24:50,176 --> 00:24:53,616
I mean, there's different type of customers.

333
00:24:53,916 --> 00:25:07,334
Some customers using us some customers using other platforms It a matter of experience education being comfortable There still like TradeFi mostly still works

334
00:25:07,334 --> 00:25:08,674
with the concept of custody.

335
00:25:09,254 --> 00:25:11,854
And what we're trying to achieve with DebitFi

336
00:25:11,854 --> 00:25:14,054
is we're trying to change that approach.

337
00:25:14,214 --> 00:25:17,134
We're trying to show that, hey, there's a new asset,

338
00:25:17,674 --> 00:25:19,034
which is Bitcoin.

339
00:25:19,034 --> 00:25:21,154
And that particular asset allows you

340
00:25:21,154 --> 00:25:22,874
to build this collaborative systems,

341
00:25:22,874 --> 00:25:25,694
like collaborative custody for collateral.

342
00:25:26,374 --> 00:25:28,714
Do you think you need to be financially savvy?

343
00:25:28,974 --> 00:25:31,194
I don't think you need to be financially savvy

344
00:25:31,194 --> 00:25:34,014
or I don't think you need to be technically savvy.

345
00:25:34,394 --> 00:25:39,234
We were building this tool for any level of the knowledge.

346
00:25:39,774 --> 00:25:43,114
It's just, again, it's just different types of people.

347
00:25:43,114 --> 00:25:46,174
Some people do care about holding their own keys

348
00:25:46,174 --> 00:25:47,814
and having a bit more control.

349
00:25:48,534 --> 00:25:49,834
Some people doesn't care.

350
00:25:50,054 --> 00:25:50,974
It's like that.

351
00:25:50,974 --> 00:25:56,474
Are there any new partnerships or features you are excited to talk about?

352
00:25:57,114 --> 00:26:02,434
Well, yeah, we announced just two days ago the partnership with Swiss bank, with Signum.

353
00:26:02,754 --> 00:26:06,694
So we're building a product which will be called Multisig.

354
00:26:07,134 --> 00:26:14,174
And it's basically the first regulated bank that's going to use collaborative custody approach, right?

355
00:26:14,294 --> 00:26:14,834
Multisig.

356
00:26:15,154 --> 00:26:18,234
So as a customer of Signum, you will be able to borrow from them,

357
00:26:18,234 --> 00:26:25,114
but you will be able to do this through the multisig that Debitify will provide together with Signum.

358
00:26:25,254 --> 00:26:29,354
So that's probably the most exciting thing I can talk about now.

359
00:26:29,634 --> 00:26:34,014
But there's more stuff coming in, so hopefully there will be more exciting announcements.

360
00:26:34,594 --> 00:26:37,254
What's the biggest challenge when explaining Debitify?

361
00:26:38,494 --> 00:26:39,054
Education.

362
00:26:39,794 --> 00:26:44,174
And, you know, again, as I said, we go to the banks, we talk with funds,

363
00:26:44,174 --> 00:26:49,774
We talk with trade companies and they all get used to the concept of the custody.

364
00:26:50,234 --> 00:26:52,074
That's how that industry works.

365
00:26:52,334 --> 00:26:55,314
So for us, biggest challenge is to change that view.

366
00:26:56,714 --> 00:26:57,914
And it's happening.

367
00:26:58,274 --> 00:27:03,214
So we have first proof of concept, you know, first bank is joining and we just, we already

368
00:27:03,214 --> 00:27:04,854
have some requests from other banks.

369
00:27:04,854 --> 00:27:06,194
So it's like very exciting.

370
00:27:06,714 --> 00:27:07,834
They're reaching out to you.

371
00:27:07,914 --> 00:27:09,834
Now they are reaching out to us.

372
00:27:09,834 --> 00:27:13,974
Before we were like knocking on the doors, but it's happening.

373
00:27:14,174 --> 00:27:17,394
We want to make banks supercharged.

374
00:27:17,534 --> 00:27:20,754
We want to help them to, you know, serve new customer base

375
00:27:20,754 --> 00:27:25,474
because there's a lot of customers that would love to use bank

376
00:27:25,474 --> 00:27:28,374
through by and holding their own key

377
00:27:28,374 --> 00:27:33,334
because it's like grounded in the ethos of Bitcoin, right?

378
00:27:33,394 --> 00:27:36,954
Holding your own key, having certain level of control

379
00:27:36,954 --> 00:27:41,274
and, you know, being less reliable on the third party

380
00:27:41,274 --> 00:27:44,794
and more on the collaboration between the third party.

381
00:27:45,194 --> 00:27:50,314
So yeah, I guess this announcement hopefully was a turning point

382
00:27:50,314 --> 00:27:53,734
not only for us, but also for the whole industry.

383
00:27:54,654 --> 00:27:56,834
A few final questions before we wrap up.

384
00:27:56,834 --> 00:28:00,254
Over these years, how has the feeling changed

385
00:28:00,254 --> 00:28:02,914
from when you first started to now?

386
00:28:03,954 --> 00:28:09,034
You're getting more pragmatic, but I guess it's less about Bitcoin changing.

387
00:28:09,334 --> 00:28:10,994
It's more about you getting older.

388
00:28:11,274 --> 00:28:13,294
I'm talking particularly about myself.

389
00:28:14,674 --> 00:28:23,274
And I guess that I've realized that if we want to achieve mass adoption, it's not enough

390
00:28:23,274 --> 00:28:25,734
to go from the bottom to the top.

391
00:28:25,734 --> 00:28:31,694
So basically, we were, I would say, let's say before 2022 or 2023, everything was like,

392
00:28:31,794 --> 00:28:38,234
okay, we need to onboard the masses of the people and they will force these changes,

393
00:28:38,574 --> 00:28:40,094
which they did to some extent.

394
00:28:40,094 --> 00:28:46,454
But now I believe that there's also should be an approach from the above to the bottom,

395
00:28:46,614 --> 00:28:48,754
which means that we need to onboard institutions.

396
00:28:49,714 --> 00:28:53,614
And institutions will spread Bitcoin across their customers and other people.

397
00:28:54,414 --> 00:28:56,814
So this is what we're trying to do with Debitify.

398
00:28:57,194 --> 00:29:01,834
We're going to institutions who serve a lot of clients.

399
00:29:02,074 --> 00:29:05,314
We provide them with the tools and customers will be engaged as well.

400
00:29:05,694 --> 00:29:06,934
And that's how we will spread.

401
00:29:06,934 --> 00:29:11,934
because it's cool if you will be able in five years to go to your local bank and borrow against

402
00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:18,474
your Bitcoin by holding your key. You are doing it, but with the Bitcoin ethos in mind. That's

403
00:29:18,474 --> 00:29:25,214
really cool. If everything you've built disappeared tomorrow, what part of you will be untouched?

404
00:29:25,894 --> 00:29:31,494
I would say there's a lot of parts of me would be untouched. Again, as I said, I do value people

405
00:29:31,494 --> 00:29:41,274
around me and being just a good person. It's not going to change that I'm not building something or

406
00:29:41,274 --> 00:29:47,194
something has disappeared. I'm still going to be a person. I'm still going to have people around me

407
00:29:47,194 --> 00:29:52,254
that I love and respect. I don't think that a lot of people might hate me for that or disagree.

408
00:29:52,474 --> 00:29:55,754
I don't think that the Bitcoin is the most important thing in your life.

409
00:29:55,754 --> 00:30:02,494
Bitcoin is important and Bitcoin helps you to achieve a lot of stuff and Bitcoin helps you and

410
00:30:02,494 --> 00:30:08,994
your loved ones to be more independent. But again, as I said, there are far more important

411
00:30:08,994 --> 00:30:16,934
things in life. And sometimes it's just good to remind yourself that your life, it's not just

412
00:30:16,934 --> 00:30:23,514
only about Bitcoin, it's far more bigger. And you need to sometimes go outside, touch the grass,

413
00:30:23,514 --> 00:30:27,874
and just enjoy nature and the world around you.

414
00:30:28,134 --> 00:30:29,054
Life is beautiful.

415
00:30:29,614 --> 00:30:34,654
What's one thing you wish Bitcoiners would talk more about?

416
00:30:35,354 --> 00:30:38,834
More about other things than Bitcoin, I would say like that.

417
00:30:39,394 --> 00:30:43,634
I really enjoy going on the conferences and talking with people,

418
00:30:43,974 --> 00:30:47,034
of course, about Bitcoin, but also about other things.

419
00:30:47,594 --> 00:30:51,434
Travels, life experiences, etc.

420
00:30:51,434 --> 00:30:58,154
etc however i have an opinion that a lot of bitcoiners they think that they have you know

421
00:30:58,154 --> 00:31:04,154
discovered this cool thing bitcoin and master it and they can and almost all of the bitcoins can

422
00:31:04,154 --> 00:31:11,194
educate other people on bitcoin but then some of us start thinking okay we can master other things

423
00:31:11,194 --> 00:31:15,434
in our life you know we're going to be not only just about bitcoin but we're going to be cool

424
00:31:15,434 --> 00:31:21,394
nutritionists and experts and all other stuff usually doesn't go well.

425
00:31:22,774 --> 00:31:27,514
You still can share your opinion, but being very persistent and, you know, pushing your

426
00:31:27,514 --> 00:31:28,854
opinion doesn't go well.

427
00:31:28,954 --> 00:31:33,714
So a lot of some of the Bitcoins, they think that, you know, because of they have discovered

428
00:31:33,714 --> 00:31:38,314
Bitcoin and they have somehow in a different position than other people, they can, you

429
00:31:38,314 --> 00:31:39,754
know, teach people on other stuff.

430
00:31:39,754 --> 00:31:47,774
but I mean there's like there's a lot of examples what works for you doesn't necessarily work for

431
00:31:47,774 --> 00:31:54,054
other people so I mean be humble and do your part if you're sharing an opinion share it as an opinion

432
00:31:54,054 --> 00:32:00,414
don't share it as like you know it's it's either white or black statement statement yeah it should

433
00:32:00,414 --> 00:32:06,314
be like that or it shouldn't be at all what's your favorite contradiction in yourself contradiction

434
00:32:06,314 --> 00:32:15,814
I mean, sometimes I can be super focused and sometimes I can be super like defocused,

435
00:32:15,994 --> 00:32:16,874
I would say.

436
00:32:17,274 --> 00:32:24,074
And sometimes it actually helps you to, you know, refresh to some extent.

437
00:32:24,534 --> 00:32:30,134
And I guess that's my favorite contradiction about myself.

438
00:32:30,554 --> 00:32:32,914
Yeah, I think it's like, it is like this.

439
00:32:32,914 --> 00:32:40,094
I mean, sometimes you can just, you know, stop being, stop focusing and maybe relax a bit.

440
00:32:40,674 --> 00:32:43,954
When was the last time you changed your mind about something important?

441
00:32:45,874 --> 00:32:54,734
I actually tried to preserve a really, really flexible mind in a way that I think that if

442
00:32:54,734 --> 00:32:57,914
there's a good reason why not to change your mind about certain things.

443
00:32:57,914 --> 00:33:05,414
So I cannot remember because if I'm wrong for whatever reason, or I have new information

444
00:33:05,414 --> 00:33:09,174
about some topic, I can change my mind pretty much easily.

445
00:33:09,174 --> 00:33:10,454
I'm okay with that.

446
00:33:10,454 --> 00:33:15,634
I think that it's also important and the most successful people that I know in life, they're

447
00:33:15,634 --> 00:33:19,934
always, you know, they're in a constant state of, you know, okay.

448
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:23,812
I was thinking it was like that, but now I have a new set of information.

449
00:33:24,092 --> 00:33:25,132
Maybe it's not like that.

450
00:33:25,212 --> 00:33:26,332
Maybe it's something different.

451
00:33:26,512 --> 00:33:30,992
And they're always like being open-minded just in general, even about Bitcoin, I mean.

452
00:33:31,872 --> 00:33:31,952
Yeah.

453
00:33:32,452 --> 00:33:38,012
And last one, what scares you more, losing privacy or losing trust?

454
00:33:39,432 --> 00:33:44,492
I already lost the privacy in the way that I go on podcasts.

455
00:33:44,832 --> 00:33:48,232
I speak from the stage, you know, I travel to the conference.

456
00:33:48,232 --> 00:33:50,392
So, but trust is very important.

457
00:33:50,572 --> 00:33:52,412
My reputation is very important for me.

458
00:33:52,492 --> 00:33:56,572
So that's, I would say that's super important thing for me.

459
00:33:57,012 --> 00:34:03,932
Privacy, I don't, I never thought about it because, you know, I go to the conferences,

460
00:34:03,932 --> 00:34:06,412
I speak, I run one.

461
00:34:06,672 --> 00:34:13,252
So it's really hard to preserve privacy for me and for any speaker that goes to the conference.

462
00:34:13,432 --> 00:34:17,312
You need to understand that if you're invited and you're going to go, it's like parting

463
00:34:17,312 --> 00:34:19,832
to some extent with part of your privacy.

464
00:34:21,012 --> 00:34:23,832
The good thing is that we still live in a small bubble

465
00:34:23,832 --> 00:34:25,952
and people outside of the Bitcoin world

466
00:34:25,952 --> 00:34:30,392
doesn't know much about famous, influenced people

467
00:34:30,392 --> 00:34:31,652
within the Bitcoin world.

468
00:34:32,452 --> 00:34:33,792
So, I mean, it's okay.

469
00:34:33,932 --> 00:34:36,652
Trust is way more important, way more important.

470
00:34:37,552 --> 00:34:39,312
Well, thank you, Max.

471
00:34:39,412 --> 00:34:42,092
Thanks for your time and this generous conversation.

472
00:34:42,692 --> 00:34:44,192
I've learned a lot from it.

473
00:34:44,712 --> 00:34:46,652
Where can people follow you and your work?

474
00:34:47,312 --> 00:34:48,952
Twitter and Noster.

475
00:34:49,532 --> 00:34:51,932
I'm going to provide you with all necessary links

476
00:34:51,932 --> 00:34:53,272
so you can follow me there.

477
00:34:53,472 --> 00:34:56,452
And I'm happy to, if there will be any questions

478
00:34:56,452 --> 00:34:59,332
from the people and comments, I'm happy to answer them.

479
00:34:59,592 --> 00:35:01,172
It's been an honor having you on.

480
00:35:01,532 --> 00:35:02,772
Can't wait to have you back.

481
00:35:03,152 --> 00:35:04,372
Until then, stay sovereign.

482
00:35:04,632 --> 00:35:04,912
Thank you.

483
00:35:17,312 --> 00:35:47,292
Thank you.