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Initially, Elon said he wanted to buy Twitter to make it the open free speech town square.

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And then immediately locked down the town square and said that you can say whatever you want,

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but we're not going to let your content be seen by everybody.

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If you don't know anybody that has been censored or banned or something,

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or if it hasn't happened to you, it's really hard to think about how that can affect you.

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I have this conversation sometimes with people privately.

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I would say, unfortunately, yes.

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But then sometimes no, too.

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Jack realized that Blue Sky was making all the same mistakes that Twitter did.

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They were basically recreating their own Twitter with maybe a sprinkle of decentralization here and there, but not truly decentralized.

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Noster is also a community.

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Noster is also the people.

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Noster is also the content.

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Once I went all in and I started really trying to build relationships,

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I realized that I don't need to go back.

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Ever build real trust with someone in Nostra

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and had no idea who they actually were?

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All views expressed by the host or guests

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are solely their own opinions.

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Nothing stated in this podcast

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should be considered a specific endorsement

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to make any particular investment

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or follow any specific strategy.

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Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask before we begin.

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Believe it or not, around 90% of the people

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who listen to our show regularly

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haven't hit subscribe or follow yet.

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If you enjoy the show,

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that one click makes sure you don't miss the episodes and guests that matter to you.

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It's free, it takes two seconds,

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and it generally helps keep improving every single episode.

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If we've ever given you value, this is the moment to give it back.

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And to everyone already following, thank you.

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You are the reason we've been able to raise the bar.

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Your support, whether it's a donation, a comment, or subscribing,

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helps these conversations reach further.

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It also gives us the push to keep going, keep traveling, keep preparing,

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and keep bringing you in-person conversations like this.

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If you are listening right now, take a second and hit subscribe,

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and the bell if you are on YouTube,

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or follow on your podcast app so you don't miss the next episode.

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Let's do this.

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Welcome back to Going Bitcoin, Derek.

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Everyone interviews you about Noster.

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I want to talk about what Nostro has done to you.

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So let's talk building.

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Okay.

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What's the difference between a protocol, software, and a platform?

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I like to tell people that platforms like X or like YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,

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all those are platforms and they all run on top of a protocol.

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Protocols are like email or like the web or like Nostro.

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now all of these platforms they use software so nostre when we talk about nostre we say nostre

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is a protocol whereas i mentioned the web or email being a protocol so so with with the web

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you can use chrome you can use safari you can use firefox those are all pieces of software

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that run on top of http like the web protocol okay they can all view the web web pages but

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Maybe they'll view them a little bit differently.

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And the same goes for Nostre, where Nostre, maybe we have Domus, we have Primal, we have

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Amethyst, Coracle, and the list goes on and on.

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All of these different pieces of software, they're their own platforms that exist on

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a protocol.

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They exist on Nostre.

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And since they're all on the same protocol, just like the web, they'll all show similar

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pieces of the protocol.

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They'll maybe show it a little bit differently, but the underlying technology

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the underlying technology is the same protocol just like email maybe i use gmail maybe you use

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outlook maybe you use hotmail whatever i recommend proton or maybe you use proton there you go

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if you have proton i use proton yeah but uh we can all email each other because it's all the

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same protocol no matter what client or app or no matter what piece of software i'm using

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same as nostr because it's all the same protocol no matter what app you're using we can all

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communicate. People say Nostra is just infrastructure. What do you think?

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I mean, if you want to get technical, sure. Nostra is the decentralized infrastructure,

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the relays that people run. It is the apps, the software that people run. But Nostra is also a

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community. Nostra is also the people. Nostra is also the content. You can have a protocol,

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But if nobody uses the protocol, it's not very useful. So you need your community. You need the people. You need someone to build on that protocol. So I think that that's a very narrow-minded thought to say that Noster is just technology.

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I mean, sure, at its basic level it is, but that basic level facilitates all of us to be able to build a community.

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And the fact that we can build our community and we're given the tools and it's open for anybody to build their community, I think that's very powerful.

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I think Noster is a community that leverages technology.

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So Noster is permissionless.

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Yes.

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What does permissionless mean to you personally?

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that means that anybody can build and anybody can say anything that they want you don't have to ask

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for permission if i wanted to say something on nostr i could i don't have to ask somebody if

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i'm allowed to say that i just do it but i think more importantly is that if i want to build

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an application, I can do it. I don't have to ask any like large tech provider if I'm allowed to

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have access to build. I just build. If I want to run a piece of the infrastructure to help out,

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to help out the community, to help out the network, I can run a piece of that. I don't have to

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submit a form and ask permission to run a Nostra server. I just do it. It's really how the internet

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should be. If I want to participate, I can. And if I don't want to participate, I don't have to.

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I can do as little or as much as I want to, and I don't have to ask either way.

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And I can be anonymous?

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If you don't want to use your real name, if you want to be an avatar that isn't your face,

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that's cool. You don't have to KYC. You don't have to sign up and give personal information.

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You don't. You don't have to give your phone number. You don't have to give your email.

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You don't have to scan your face.

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Now, here's the funny thing.

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If a Noster application wanted to take your name, wanted to take your phone number, wanted

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to scan your face, they absolutely could because anybody can build anything, right?

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They can sell it.

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Yeah.

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I don't have to use that app.

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But if a company or individual shows up and said, hey, I want to build an app that KYC

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and takes all of your personal information because we're going to sell it to become profitable.

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Cool.

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They can do that.

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I don't have to use that app, though.

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I have the ability to use any app that I want. So maybe they're the best doing something and people

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use that app because sure, I'll give away some privacy. Convenience, but there's a free market.

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Yeah, it's a free market. So the market will choose. Some people may use that and some people

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won't. And that's the beauty of Nostra is that if somebody wants to build that, they can.

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Ever build real trust with someone in Nostra and had no idea who they actually were?

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Well, with me?

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Yes.

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Well, it's a frustrating story for me.

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So my early days in Nostra, I realized that I could build something on Nostra.

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So I built Nostra Plebs, which still exists today.

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It's the number one most popular Nostra identity providers.

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It gives you a way to turn a public key, which is really ugly and no one's ever going to remember, into something that's identifiable.

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So I can be Derek Ross at NosterPlebs.com.

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You can be, you know, all in Bitcoin at NosterPlebs.com.

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I am all in Bitcoin.

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So you have that.

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Versus NPUB 1, 2, A, B, X, Y, 3, you know, no one's going to remember that.

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So anyways, I built a very, since I'm not a developer, I built a very bad hacky version of this.

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and it was going to work and it was going to be bad, but it was going to work. And I was talking

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to an anonymous friend of mine. His name is Semi Soul. He's a developer. His profile pictures,

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you know, whatever, it's a cat or something. Like I have no clue who Semi Soul is. I've never heard

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his voice. I've never seen his face. I don't know anything about him. It could be Jack Dorsey as far

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as I know. I don't think it is. Anyways, I don't know who it is. He became my business partner

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for Nosterpleps. And in the beginning, I didn't overly care too much because he was helping me

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build things. I had known him a little, you know, for a short amount of time,

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maybe six months or so on Twitter and Noster. That was good enough for me. Like I knew him well

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enough, I had to trust him a lot in the beginning to be able to build this application for Nostra

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Plebs' business. But once we figured out our business relationship, what I was going to provide

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and control and what he was going to provide and control, like we each had bits and pieces that we

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became reliant on each other to run, we ended up forming a great business relationship. And

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a couple times whenever we had some differences of opinions and thoughts, like I had said to a

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man, like this would be so much easier if we could just have a conversation and like over a video

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call or a phone call, you know, so we don't have to talk via typing and text. And he's like, I'm

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not going to do that. And that was frustrating for me. And it's like, well, this conversation is

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going to take so much longer and be so much harder to figure out. But I came around and I understood.

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I said, okay, if you want to stay anonymous, that's fine. I trust you and I respect you enough

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that if you want to be anonymous, that's fine. Nostra Plebs is still going to this day and we're

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still a service provider today and we're still building services. And him and I still talk all

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the time about different enhancements and stuff. So in the beginning, it was a little hard, but

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it worked out. Yeah. Well, he's a man of principles. Exactly. Yeah, that's what he wanted.

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And I think that because of that, I wanted a little bit more control of some things

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from my protection. So for his protection, he wanted to be anonymous. And for my protection,

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I said, well, I need to have a little bit more control of some stuff, you know, give and take.

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And it worked out.

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And I think he's happy.

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I'm happy.

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And it's been a good business partnership because of that.

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When did Noster start feeling like home?

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So I went pretty much all in in the beginning, but I would say a couple months.

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Like once I realized that I didn't need to go back to Twitter, that I could build on Noster.

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And there was friends that I felt like I abandoned on like Bitcoin Twitter.

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And there was people that I would talk to and say, come on, come over to Noster.

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You know, I miss seeing your content.

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And, but once I kind of started to build my own community and make relationships there,

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I realized that, okay, this will, this will be okay.

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The majority of my friends have now from Twitter come over.

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The few stragglers, I'll still talk to them from time to time.

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And I do.

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To this day, I still do.

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And I, even just last week, I said to them, I said, hey, you still didn't come over yet.

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Like, I miss you guys.

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And, and that's okay.

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I think once I went all in and I started engaging and commenting and really trying to build relationships and become part of this Nostra community, I realized that I don't need to go back.

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Should one avoid the universe?

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So in the Domus app, there's a feed called the universe feed.

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Some apps call it global.

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It's not really global.

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I mean, it's not really universe because it's not a fire hose of all content on Noster.

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It's a fire hose of all content on the relays that you're using.

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But in the beginning, that's how we found everybody.

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Like if we rewind to the first, I don't know, six months or so on Noster, you went to global,

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you went to the universe feed.

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That's how you found people.

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But now I don't go to global.

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I don't go to universe.

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I stay away from there because that is seen as spam and a lot of just unwanted content.

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There's also relays that are hooked to the Fediverse, like Activity Pub or Mastodon, Fediverse, whatever you want to call it.

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We have a bridge between Noster and the Fediverse, which is cool because that means we get to connect two different decentralized social protocols.

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So we connect Noster and we connect the Fediverse by this bridge.

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But that means we get a fire hose of all of the Fediverse content that wants to bridge with us too.

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And it's not fun really anymore.

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It's too much.

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Like new users should definitely stay away from the universe and global feeds.

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You're not going to have a good time.

190
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It's just a lot of spam and it's hard to navigate.

191
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So I think that it's not useful anymore.

192
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:10,120
Ever posted something on Noster, regretted it, and realized you couldn't delete it?

193
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:18,240
So let's talk about that. So we say there's no delete on Noster, and that's medium true.

194
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Some applications do support delete. The protocol...

195
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Do they?

196
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Yeah.

197
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Oh, yeah.

198
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Because I did have my...

199
00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:30,460
Amethyst has a delete. Nostrudo has a delete. Primal has a delete.

200
00:14:30,460 --> 00:14:32,760
but they're more delete requests.

201
00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:35,620
So it's not a guarantee.

202
00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:37,240
What it is, is it's,

203
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I'm going to create this delete request,

204
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send it to all the relays.

205
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,180
And if a relay wants to comply to delete it, it will.

206
00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:45,660
Now, most of them do.

207
00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:48,580
However, there's local caches.

208
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So like Domus, for example,

209
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has a local relay that runs on the phone, NosterDB.

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if you get a note that has been deleted the nostr db that runs on domus doesn't delete that request

211
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so it stays look so if i make a post and you see it and i'm like oh shit i gotta delete it and i

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hit delete you won't see that i deleted it maybe all the relays that i use i won't show it at all

213
00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:26,760
but on yours I can see you would still see it okay and I've made notes and I've posted them

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to specifically test this functionality and I've deleted them and they do delete and then I think

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they're deleted and some people say yeah I've never seen this note I know it's deleted and

216
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then I've had some Domus users say to me oh I still see it because it's in their it's in their

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local cache. Now, Will has said, he goes, oh, maybe, you know, maybe if I word it as a delete

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request, maybe, you know, I like how Primal and Amethyst word it as a request. Maybe someday I'll

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add that. So maybe that's coming to Domus. But users need to realize that it is a request, that

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it won't go away everywhere. So maybe you could delete it from 90% of Noster, but there's that 10%

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that it won't go away.

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I didn't know you could do that.

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And I really had a few FF, what the F moments,

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like, you know, when you do typos,

225
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you haven't finished a message and it goes.

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Oh, yeah.

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And then you send the next one, like thinking,

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okay, if they see this one, they will see the second one.

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But I didn't know you could actually delete it.

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Well, as you said, ask.

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Clients that honor deletes,

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if they would see that note on a relay,

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but then they would also see the delete request on a relay,

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they can hide it still technically exists but maybe it doesn't show up in people's feeds because

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the client then ignores it that's why i said you can't actually delete but there are ways to hide

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it and it i don know if that good or bad uh some sometimes i delete my typos if i can do it real quick like if i notice the typo within the first few seconds like oh shit quick delete delete delete delete But if I notice it like five minutes later Where do you click on delete

237
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Because you said delete, delete.

238
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It's just a feature in the app.

239
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Domus doesn't have it, but Amethyst does and Primal does.

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So it's just a button you just click

241
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and it pops up and says, you know,

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do you want to delete this?

243
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So send this delete request, you hit yes.

244
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And just like publishing a note,

245
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it goes out to relays and publishes a delete request.

246
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But if a relay doesn't get the delete request and they don't honor it, then the content's still there.

247
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But I delete from my own personal typos.

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If I don't see it, it doesn't exist.

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This episode is brought to you by Bitbox, the Bitcoin hardware wallet that guards your sovereignty.

250
00:17:39,364 --> 00:17:49,064
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251
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252
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Go to bitbox.swiss slash allinbitcoin for 5% off or use the code allinbitcoin or check the show notes.

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00:18:01,984 --> 00:18:06,564
So your Nostra handle says the purple peel helps the orange peel go down.

254
00:18:07,064 --> 00:18:07,364
Explain.

255
00:18:08,684 --> 00:18:13,864
I think I stole this saying from a Nostra developer named Camry.

256
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He used to make the Noster relay called No Stream.

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In something like January or February of 2023, I think he said this in a Noster nest when we were talking one night.

258
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And I was like, I love that saying.

259
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And I truly believe it.

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Now, what it means is that with Bitcoin, people say that's the orange pill.

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So we started saying Noster is the purple pill.

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So how does the purple pill help the orange pill go down?

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Well, Noster can be a stress-free, fun way to use Bitcoin.

264
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Because it's with lightning and it's with zaps.

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And you can just press one button, one click, and you can zap a piece of content.

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Or you can put a lightning address on your profile and somebody can easily click a button and zap you.

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00:19:16,824 --> 00:19:21,604
So it kind of it takes the B word, the Bitcoin out of everything.

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And it's just a very fun and stress free, frictionless way to use Bitcoin.

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So I truly believe that, you know, since most of the world is not Bitcoiners, that Noster can be a lot of people's first touch with Bitcoin.

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They come for freedom of speech.

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They come for control of their attention.

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They come for control of their social feeds.

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They come for control of their identity and their content.

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Whatever the reason that may be, they decide to join Noster, we'll orange pill them through.

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We'll zap them.

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00:19:54,784 --> 00:20:00,264
Yeah, we'll zap them and we'll orange pill them through their purple pill.

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So I truly believe that that happens.

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00:20:02,464 --> 00:20:08,224
And I know several individuals, they weren't Bitcoiners when they joined Noster and they're Bitcoiners now.

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00:20:08,304 --> 00:20:08,724
Oh, really?

280
00:20:08,884 --> 00:20:09,204
Yeah.

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My friend Roya, she's my favorite story about this.

282
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Yes, please do.

283
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She came to Nostrica.

284
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Maybe you met her down in Costa Rica.

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She came for freedom of speech.

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She has family in the Middle East.

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00:20:23,824 --> 00:20:29,904
And she said, my family, like my community there, they need freedom of speech.

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So she came to Nostra through freedom of speech.

289
00:20:33,244 --> 00:20:35,324
And then she fell in love with Zaps.

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00:20:35,324 --> 00:20:42,444
and she started to learn about Bitcoin and why Bitcoin was good and the monetary system and all

291
00:20:42,444 --> 00:20:46,644
this other stuff. And she's a Bitcoiner now. She has a hardware wallet. She buys Bitcoin. She

292
00:20:46,644 --> 00:20:51,264
zaps constantly. But she was not a Bitcoiner at all, at all before Noster.

293
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What was missing that made you build it?

294
00:20:54,424 --> 00:21:01,304
My most important one I feel that I built was a Noster event meetup scheduling app.

295
00:21:01,304 --> 00:21:03,284
We had several attempts on Noster.

296
00:21:03,464 --> 00:21:08,204
We had an app called Floxter that was built about a year ago.

297
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The same developer then kind of abandoned Floxter and built an app called then Troop.

298
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And it was the same thing.

299
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There were event scheduling or meetup apps, but they were on Noster.

300
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That developer has since left Noster.

301
00:21:22,364 --> 00:21:25,944
I actually saw him a couple months ago and asked him how he was doing, if he's coming

302
00:21:25,944 --> 00:21:26,744
back to Noster.

303
00:21:26,904 --> 00:21:30,604
And he's just like, I'm just, I'm just not feeling, you know, I still think Noster is

304
00:21:30,604 --> 00:21:30,904
great.

305
00:21:30,904 --> 00:21:35,664
I love Noster. I just, I'm working on other stuff and that's fine. But he abandoned these two apps

306
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and it kind of never completed them. So we have these incomplete thoughts. And I really think

307
00:21:39,984 --> 00:21:45,224
event scheduling, you know, like we need to get off of meetup and we need to get off of Eventbrite.

308
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Like, I think that this is really something here. And then we had another developer. His name is

309
00:21:50,524 --> 00:21:56,184
Terry Yu. He, he actually works on Domus and as a part-time project, he started building

310
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an app called CoMingle for events. And it was available only on TestFlight on iOS.

311
00:22:03,904 --> 00:22:09,304
So now we have these three partially built, partially abandoned, incomplete thoughts.

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And I waited and I waited and I waited and they never finished them. And that's fine. That's fine.

313
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And then vibe coding kind of came along and I had the ability to fill this need. And I said,

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oh man, I want to schedule. I literally need this. I'm scheduling a meetup in Las Vegas,

315
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an event, and I don't want to use meetup and Eventbrite. And I'm trying to schedule my Bitcoin

316
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Noster event on these apps that are half broken. This is horrible. And it was a bad experience for

317
00:22:42,344 --> 00:22:47,284
me. And basically I frustrated myself so much that I said, all right, I'm going to build it.

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I'm going to fix this. And I built an app called Plectose to fill my personal need and a need I

319
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thought that Noster really needed. And people have been using it. And now the Orange Pill app,

320
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just recently, the Orange Pill app, I talked to Mateo, the CEO, founder of that company,

321
00:23:05,104 --> 00:23:12,484
and I convinced him to publish all the Orange Pill app events onto Noster. All their events are now

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published on Noster. And you can go and view them all on Plectose or Noster Cow or any app that

323
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supports a calendar. And what about Grow Noster? Grow Noster came out of the need to grow Noster.

324
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Last year in Prague, I organized a Bitcoin booth where I did a bunch of fundraising,

325
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crowdsourced fundraising and raised funds to have a booth at a large Bitcoin conference in Europe

326
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at Prague. It was very, very successful. We had tons of people there. We purple-pilled tons of

327
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people. We did a bunch of onboarding. We talked about Nostra. We were the busiest booth every

328
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single day of that conference, elbow to elbow. It was a huge success. And then afterwards,

329
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I started having conversations with people saying, we need to do this again. We need to be at every

330
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Bitcoin conference. We need to be at every meetup. We need to onboard people in person. I think

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00:24:19,144 --> 00:24:27,624
this is going to work. Well, how do we do that? And myself and a couple of other individuals

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started having conversations about this, thinking of ways to do this.

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00:24:33,064 --> 00:24:41,284
And my friend Avi Burra and I started talking with another mutual friend of ours, Open Mike, who comes from the music industry.

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He wanted to grow Noster through onboarding independent musicians and artists.

335
00:24:47,884 --> 00:24:56,924
and Avi and I both agreed that this was a great avenue to onboard musicians to Nostra and Bitcoin

336
00:24:56,924 --> 00:25:04,484
because they're a group of people that are getting screwed by Spotify and so forth and big tech

337
00:25:04,484 --> 00:25:09,244
algorithms and stuff. So they need Nostra too. Everybody needs Bitcoin. Everybody needs Nostra.

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So we decided that we needed a way to be able to organize in a more concentrated effort to try to

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00:25:16,004 --> 00:25:22,364
make it easy to onboard communities. And more importantly, we wanted a way to help people have

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meetups and help people organize events. So maybe at a Bitcoin conference, maybe we have a booth,

341
00:25:28,564 --> 00:25:34,984
maybe at a Bitcoin conference, we have a Noster side event in the evening or a special Noster day,

342
00:25:35,144 --> 00:25:41,144
or maybe you just run a local meetup and you, or you want to start a local meetup and you need

343
00:25:41,144 --> 00:25:47,604
$500 to rent a venue and you don't have $500. Like where do you turn if you want to do all this

344
00:25:47,604 --> 00:25:53,544
stuff? You can't go to OpenSats. OpenSats is amazing. They sponsor Bitcoin and Noster Education

345
00:25:53,544 --> 00:25:59,964
and Bitcoin and Noster Developers, but they don't do like growth and onboarding. And sure,

346
00:25:59,964 --> 00:26:03,984
that's kind of education, but it's a gray area and they really don't sponsor that.

347
00:26:03,984 --> 00:26:14,644
so we decided well well what if we held an event and we charge some funds for the event

348
00:26:14,644 --> 00:26:22,124
and then any type of profit that we make we then put in savings to then help sponsor the next event

349
00:26:22,124 --> 00:26:27,024
and then we can roll that money forward roll those funds forward so if anyone comes to us and says

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00:26:27,024 --> 00:26:33,044
hey derek i want to have a local nostril meetup and i need five hundred dollars to rent this event

351
00:26:33,044 --> 00:26:36,644
space or a thousand dollars, you know, not a whole lot of money in the grand scheme of things,

352
00:26:36,644 --> 00:26:41,664
but a little bit of money could make our very small event be very successful. You know,

353
00:26:42,104 --> 00:26:47,644
how do I do that? Can you help out? And it's a way for us to give back. It's just a way for us to

354
00:26:47,644 --> 00:26:53,684
try to organize and grow Nostra together. People that are like-minded and want to grow Nostra and

355
00:26:53,684 --> 00:26:59,804
believe that these smaller meetups are how we help people grow their individual communities.

356
00:26:59,804 --> 00:27:05,044
Ever built something on Nostra that didn't work out? And how did that hit you?

357
00:27:05,724 --> 00:27:13,704
Yes. So NostraNest was my second app, if you count Nostra Plebs being the first app.

358
00:27:14,044 --> 00:27:19,904
NostraNest was my second app. NostraNest was hugely successful, I would say, for the first year.

359
00:27:19,904 --> 00:27:29,984
but the application could have been so much more and i'm not a full stack developer and i couldn't

360
00:27:29,984 --> 00:27:37,744
develop all the features that it needed so it took me about a year of trying to find a developer

361
00:27:37,744 --> 00:27:43,724
until i found and i found a developer i did some crowdfunding kieran was the developer we raised

362
00:27:43,724 --> 00:27:52,644
funds. Kieran was paid and he built Nostra Ness, the new version, Nostra Ness 2.0. And I,

363
00:27:52,984 --> 00:27:59,144
it was successful in the beginning, but it's hard to continue to pay a developer

364
00:27:59,144 --> 00:28:07,424
to work on your open source project. And he has his own projects that he wants to work on,

365
00:28:07,424 --> 00:28:13,904
you know, his own passions. So me continuing to go to him and pay him or expect him to do things

366
00:28:13,904 --> 00:28:21,504
for free, that's just not going to work out in the long run. So NostraNest, I would say,

367
00:28:21,644 --> 00:28:27,904
is very stagnant project. That saddens me because I think it could be so much better,

368
00:28:28,344 --> 00:28:35,164
but I'm not a developer, so it's hard for me to build these features. However, now thanks to

369
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vibe coding. Now that these new tools are available that weren't really available to me two years ago

370
00:28:41,564 --> 00:28:48,144
or even a year ago, now I'm able to build and I'm hoping to make it more successful now.

371
00:28:48,344 --> 00:28:51,564
I wouldn't say it completely failed, but it just didn't gain traction.

372
00:28:52,704 --> 00:28:57,344
And part of the reason it didn't gain traction was maybe because in the grand scheme of things,

373
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nobody wants a web app. Nobody wants to go to a third-party Nostra website,

374
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sign in with a browser extension or paste an NSEC into the app and sign in.

375
00:29:08,304 --> 00:29:08,904
That's hard.

376
00:29:09,464 --> 00:29:11,744
It gets back to the more technical reasons.

377
00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:15,644
And me being a technical person, I thought, oh, it's no big deal.

378
00:29:15,724 --> 00:29:17,564
People can just use a browser extension.

379
00:29:18,044 --> 00:29:19,764
The majority of people don't do that.

380
00:29:20,044 --> 00:29:22,484
The majority of people want a native application.

381
00:29:22,484 --> 00:29:26,604
So I wouldn't say NostraNest has been a complete failure,

382
00:29:26,864 --> 00:29:31,624
but it's been very unsuccessful in my mind compared to where I hoped it would be.

383
00:29:32,204 --> 00:29:34,604
But now I'm hoping to turn that around.

384
00:29:34,684 --> 00:29:36,884
Thanks to Vibe Coding, I'm working on Nests.

385
00:29:37,324 --> 00:29:39,884
But also, I didn't want to leak it, but whatever.

386
00:29:40,164 --> 00:29:41,244
We'll do a leak.

387
00:29:41,784 --> 00:29:44,744
Primal is building Nostra Nest support into their app.

388
00:29:44,964 --> 00:29:45,284
Okay.

389
00:29:45,524 --> 00:29:51,704
So Primal will soon come out with a new version that has Nests built into it.

390
00:29:51,844 --> 00:29:56,064
So it'll function, since Primal is one of the most popular Nostra apps,

391
00:29:56,564 --> 00:29:59,184
everybody will have access to Nests through a native application.

392
00:29:59,184 --> 00:30:06,784
and I think that'll be huge for Ness adoption and then once Primal does it other applications

393
00:30:06,784 --> 00:30:13,344
will do it too I know Vitor has talked about adding it to Amethyst and uh I'm gonna I'm gonna

394
00:30:13,344 --> 00:30:17,964
bully Will and I'm gonna get I'm gonna get him to add it to Domus I'm gonna say Will come on man

395
00:30:17,964 --> 00:30:22,944
we have it in Amethyst we have it in Primal come on I'm gonna yeah now Will's a good friend and he

396
00:30:22,944 --> 00:30:27,524
said he would he would support Ness at some point in the future he's really focused on NoteDeck right

397
00:30:27,524 --> 00:30:32,764
now so maybe in the future it'll come to note deck or maybe it'll come to damas once other apps uh

398
00:30:32,764 --> 00:30:38,124
add it i think it's on their roadmap but it doesn't have a set nostranets i don't know if you're

399
00:30:38,124 --> 00:30:44,464
because it's just you're being too tough on on it but that's where my first conversations on nostran

400
00:30:44,464 --> 00:30:51,384
happened and the first concert remember jay playing uh piano live on nostranets yeah

401
00:30:51,384 --> 00:30:56,824
yeah i remember and that was the first that was the first like nostranets concert we had yeah i

402
00:30:56,824 --> 00:31:02,924
remember and it could be so much more you know and it will be and i want it to be so in my mind

403
00:31:02,924 --> 00:31:08,584
it's not a complete success it's not a complete failure but it's not where i want it to be so

404
00:31:08,584 --> 00:31:15,024
i'm hoping that when it's added to some of the most popular nostre apps in the future and i have

405
00:31:15,024 --> 00:31:19,204
confirmation now that they're working on it i'll be excited you know three months from now or

406
00:31:19,204 --> 00:31:23,344
whenever that is that that launches i i can't wait that's nostrils for you you know like in

407
00:31:23,344 --> 00:31:28,444
three months or in two months things happen so quickly yeah yeah it's gonna happen it's not dead

408
00:31:28,444 --> 00:31:33,304
and it's gonna get better i'm gonna i'm gonna make sure of that you've built projects that give people

409
00:31:33,304 --> 00:31:44,244
a voice why well because i truly believe now that anybody that should be able to have their voice

410
00:31:44,244 --> 00:31:51,064
and their opinion and their ideas heard the more ideas and the more opinions the more thoughts that

411
00:31:51,064 --> 00:31:58,184
we have out there, I really think the better that we are as society, as humans. I think that

412
00:31:58,184 --> 00:32:05,624
it's bad to be in echo chambers, and I think it's bad to have people silenced. So empowering and

413
00:32:05,624 --> 00:32:13,204
enabling people to speak, I think, is really, really, it's empowering for me to know that I

414
00:32:13,204 --> 00:32:19,244
was able to help somebody do that. You just said echo chamber. I get annoyed when people say that

415
00:32:19,244 --> 00:32:24,484
Noster is an echo chamber. I don't think so. I think it's a Bitcoin echo chamber. It is.

416
00:32:24,524 --> 00:32:28,064
You think so? Oh, yeah. That's okay. Somebody has to be first. Yeah.

417
00:32:28,064 --> 00:32:34,024
Like with every piece of technology, piece of software, somebody has to be a first user.

418
00:32:34,624 --> 00:32:39,604
The Noster first users are Bitcoiners. They recognize the freedom to transact. They understand

419
00:32:39,604 --> 00:32:44,384
the freedom to communicate. It makes sense. If the first group of people are, you know,

420
00:32:44,384 --> 00:32:49,464
people that love freedom technology. And that's kind of our echo chamber, really. But maybe in

421
00:32:49,464 --> 00:32:54,944
the future, I hope we have so many other groups and communities of people, but somebody has to be

422
00:32:54,944 --> 00:33:02,244
first. And if 80% of our conversations on Nostra are about Bitcoin, that's okay.

423
00:33:02,544 --> 00:33:07,744
This is my experience, and it's true. I'm a Bitcoiner, so I'm talking about Bitcoin content.

424
00:33:07,744 --> 00:33:14,444
content. But I get a larger variety of Bitcoin content on Nostra than I get on X. Maybe it's

425
00:33:14,444 --> 00:33:20,084
the algorithms. I don't know. Maybe it's the algorithms. Yeah. Also, now you have to like pay

426
00:33:20,084 --> 00:33:27,684
on X to get reach. What does X say? Freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach. You have to pay

427
00:33:27,684 --> 00:33:33,164
if you want to reach people. And that's crazy. That's a different conversation. But yeah, maybe

428
00:33:33,164 --> 00:33:39,704
Maybe if you're not paying, then you don't have the reach and people can't reach you,

429
00:33:39,704 --> 00:33:44,324
maybe. It's probably the algorithms, yeah. Noster's definitely more signal, though. It's

430
00:33:44,324 --> 00:33:47,704
always been that way. It's always the people that are talking about the cool things that

431
00:33:47,704 --> 00:34:06,308
are building We not sure we talk about number go up because who doesn like to be right or validated or see a green candle Like people like that We human But we also talk about all the building and all the cool features and all the services and all the apps and the new fun stuff that people are doing too

432
00:34:07,228 --> 00:34:10,888
Do you feel responsible for how people use the tools you build?

433
00:34:11,228 --> 00:34:12,888
To an extent, sure.

434
00:34:13,068 --> 00:34:17,908
Because I want, I'll say from a user experience standpoint.

435
00:34:17,908 --> 00:34:42,168
So if I build something that doesn't work well, I need to understand how they're using the tool, the app, the service, so I can help them use it better. Absolutely. But if I mean, do I feel responsible for like things they're posting or things they're saying? Like, no, no, not at all. But yes, for how they're using it? Absolutely.

436
00:34:42,848 --> 00:34:46,508
There's another application I haven't mentioned yet called Yakback.

437
00:34:47,368 --> 00:34:49,588
Think of it as like micro podcasts.

438
00:34:49,988 --> 00:34:50,208
Okay.

439
00:34:50,388 --> 00:34:51,448
Like a minute.

440
00:34:52,008 --> 00:34:52,488
Exactly.

441
00:34:52,848 --> 00:34:54,828
It's a 60-second voice message.

442
00:34:54,928 --> 00:34:55,568
That's all it is.

443
00:34:56,008 --> 00:35:01,908
So like you as a podcaster, if you wanted to post like 60-second like little interactions on Yakback, you could.

444
00:35:01,908 --> 00:35:05,688
And there's several apps that have actually started to implement Yaks.

445
00:35:06,068 --> 00:35:09,108
And there's more that are – more apps are coming along the way.

446
00:35:09,108 --> 00:35:21,488
Anyways, these Yaks, when I was building it, I wanted to make sure people were using it in my vision, using it how I intended.

447
00:35:22,088 --> 00:35:30,008
And I worked with a couple users when it launched to make sure they were using it how I wanted them to use it.

448
00:35:30,008 --> 00:35:45,828
And because it's only 60 seconds, but in theory, in theory, if any application adds support for these voice messages, they can be longer than 60 seconds if they want it to be.

449
00:35:45,828 --> 00:35:50,268
And that was kind of tough for me to grasp.

450
00:35:50,388 --> 00:35:51,328
I was like, well, that's not my vision.

451
00:35:51,428 --> 00:35:52,868
I don't want it to be like longer than that.

452
00:35:52,908 --> 00:35:53,928
I want it to be 60 seconds.

453
00:35:55,068 --> 00:35:58,688
So tell me about an impactful moment in building in public.

454
00:35:59,648 --> 00:36:04,928
Fiat Jeff, the founder of Noster, he actually helped me with Yakback.

455
00:36:05,828 --> 00:36:14,888
And I think that because I was building in public and I published an idea for an application

456
00:36:14,888 --> 00:36:20,708
that he actually really liked, he decided to work on it with me.

457
00:36:21,708 --> 00:36:24,388
So I published the application.

458
00:36:25,228 --> 00:36:28,968
Fiat Jeff doesn't really like AI coded apps.

459
00:36:30,148 --> 00:36:31,388
He looked at it and he's like,

460
00:36:31,428 --> 00:36:32,908
hey, I've always wanted to do this.

461
00:36:32,968 --> 00:36:34,368
This is an idea I like.

462
00:36:34,828 --> 00:36:37,008
And since you did it, I'm going to help you.

463
00:36:37,248 --> 00:36:40,588
So what he did is he contacted me and he said,

464
00:36:41,488 --> 00:36:44,888
hey, I'm going to rewrite some of this code

465
00:36:44,888 --> 00:36:47,508
to make it work better because the AI wrote it bad

466
00:36:47,508 --> 00:36:49,628
and the AI shouldn't have written it this way.

467
00:36:49,688 --> 00:36:50,588
And I'm like, but it works.

468
00:36:50,628 --> 00:36:53,108
He's like, but nope, it needs to work better.

469
00:36:53,108 --> 00:36:55,028
and he's a very talented guy.

470
00:36:55,148 --> 00:36:56,948
So I was like, hey, I trust you.

471
00:36:57,028 --> 00:36:57,588
You're awesome.

472
00:36:57,728 --> 00:36:59,068
If you believe that it can work better,

473
00:36:59,168 --> 00:36:59,968
please make it better.

474
00:37:00,508 --> 00:37:04,328
And then he said to me, he said, this is great.

475
00:37:04,328 --> 00:37:08,748
You can be the public and deal with all the issues

476
00:37:08,748 --> 00:37:10,948
and talk to people about it.

477
00:37:11,148 --> 00:37:13,388
And I can just like work on it on the back end, basically.

478
00:37:13,548 --> 00:37:15,508
So I don't have to deal with all the bullshit.

479
00:37:15,768 --> 00:37:17,528
You know, I can just work on it.

480
00:37:17,708 --> 00:37:19,768
And that's kind of like how our relationship is now.

481
00:37:19,828 --> 00:37:20,988
He's added features.

482
00:37:20,988 --> 00:37:44,608
And when there's bugs, I contact him and he fixes it. And it's a nice relationship that I truly believe that it's because of like my like passion and the fact that I'm public and talk about this and have, I don't want to say like influence, but I can talk to people about things.

483
00:37:44,608 --> 00:37:55,948
And now that these applications are building the Yaks into their apps, like I was able to facilitate that and be the developer relations role and kind of facilitate all that.

484
00:37:56,108 --> 00:38:02,668
That because I did all that in the public, Fiat Jeff decided to help me and decided to build with me.

485
00:38:03,368 --> 00:38:03,948
Would I know?

486
00:38:04,088 --> 00:38:06,648
Yeah, that's very exciting for me.

487
00:38:06,648 --> 00:38:09,548
That was almost kind of like starstruck for me.

488
00:38:09,548 --> 00:38:16,808
I talk to Fiat Jeff all the time, but the fact that he said he wanted to work on that with me, I was like, oh, wow, that's really cool.

489
00:38:16,968 --> 00:38:18,648
That was cool for me.

490
00:38:18,848 --> 00:38:21,588
That was very cool for me.

491
00:38:21,628 --> 00:38:30,068
I'm very proud and very honored to work on that with him and to have him talk to me about it and dedicate his time.

492
00:38:30,308 --> 00:38:32,348
We have a good relationship together now.

493
00:38:32,948 --> 00:38:36,308
Why do you think people don't understand the impact of being censored?

494
00:38:36,528 --> 00:38:37,408
What are they missing?

495
00:38:37,408 --> 00:38:54,928
You know, it's hard for people to see outside their purview. If you don't know anybody that has been censored or banned or something, or if it hasn't happened to you, you haven't experienced it, it's really hard to think about how that can affect you.

496
00:38:54,928 --> 00:39:00,888
it's like oh well I've never been censored it doesn't hurt me and that's correct but if it did

497
00:39:00,888 --> 00:39:07,508
it's hard to determine and realize what that actually means so if you've never dealt with it

498
00:39:07,508 --> 00:39:12,868
it's it's kind of like out of sight out of mind right if you don't if you don't see it it doesn't

499
00:39:12,868 --> 00:39:17,628
exist and that's it's hard to be empathetic and realize what other people could go through

500
00:39:17,628 --> 00:39:22,608
can you still speak freely on Nostra or does your visibility come with new pressure

501
00:39:22,608 --> 00:39:38,408
Oh, this is a good question. And I have this conversation sometimes, not publicly. I have this conversation sometimes with people privately. I would say, unfortunately, yes, but then sometimes no, too.

502
00:39:38,408 --> 00:39:45,508
I can't think of any exact examples off the top of my head, but there definitely has been some

503
00:39:45,508 --> 00:39:52,268
times where I've wanted to say things. I've typed it all out and then I was like, nope, nevermind,

504
00:39:52,388 --> 00:39:56,648
delete, delete. And I just, you know, I delete it all and don't post it. And other people have

505
00:39:56,648 --> 00:40:01,688
recognized that too. They've literally tagged me in posts and say, Hey, I wonder what Derek Ross

506
00:40:01,688 --> 00:40:07,908
thinks on this. And then somebody else responds, he, he's an Oscar CEO. He can't talk about this.

507
00:40:07,908 --> 00:40:11,168
And I'm like, you're kind of, I mean, you're not wrong.

508
00:40:11,268 --> 00:40:15,488
You're joking, but you're also kind of serious too.

509
00:40:16,388 --> 00:40:26,708
And I've, oh, I said it's not truly self-censorship, but I've had to word my responses very carefully.

510
00:40:26,708 --> 00:40:33,288
I try to think more on how I'm going to respond to certain things.

511
00:40:33,288 --> 00:40:40,668
and it's probably not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things but sometimes I think if

512
00:40:40,668 --> 00:40:47,568
I wasn't as publicly visible maybe I would respond differently it's almost like I have a

513
00:40:47,568 --> 00:40:55,088
responsibility to say and do things and I don't like that feeling it's it's a weird position to

514
00:40:55,088 --> 00:41:08,528
be in. But then sometimes I also think it's Noster and we thrive on authenticity and we thrive on

515
00:41:08,528 --> 00:41:15,868
being able to be your true self. Basically like saying, fuck you, say what you want. And I do.

516
00:41:16,828 --> 00:41:23,788
It depends. Finding the balance. Yes. Finding the balance is hard. It really is. I try to give back.

517
00:41:25,088 --> 00:41:33,188
as much as I can because of that, because I do have this voice. So I try to use my voice to help

518
00:41:33,188 --> 00:41:39,368
others as much as I can, whether that is something as simple as sharing somebody's

519
00:41:39,368 --> 00:41:48,008
post, somebody's work. So if you were to ask me to look at something that you're working on,

520
00:41:48,008 --> 00:41:54,508
or a post piece of content and to share it, me doing that is being a part of your algorithm.

521
00:41:54,508 --> 00:41:56,908
And I like helping people out.

522
00:41:56,968 --> 00:41:59,748
And I think that kind of identifies with who I am.

523
00:41:59,908 --> 00:42:04,568
So it does weigh heavy on me, but I try to give back as much as I can by helping people

524
00:42:04,568 --> 00:42:09,788
out, helping surface, surface users, their content, help with user discovery, helping

525
00:42:09,788 --> 00:42:15,488
the ecosystem as much as I can and being involved as much as I can so I can give back.

526
00:42:16,268 --> 00:42:17,928
Have you ever thought of quitting?

527
00:42:19,668 --> 00:42:23,228
Oh, I love it.

528
00:42:23,228 --> 00:42:23,788
I do.

529
00:42:24,088 --> 00:42:28,628
Like, I think yesterday you had a 23 hours flight.

530
00:42:29,048 --> 00:42:29,628
Oh, yeah.

531
00:42:29,768 --> 00:42:30,088
Yeah.

532
00:42:30,688 --> 00:42:31,728
It's a lot.

533
00:42:31,868 --> 00:42:36,668
It's, I mean, it's until recently, it was a second unpaid job and now I'm getting paid

534
00:42:36,668 --> 00:42:38,408
part time through Soapbox.

535
00:42:38,728 --> 00:42:40,368
So I love that.

536
00:42:40,648 --> 00:42:45,748
But it's a lot to work a second unpaid job, probably more hours a week than I work my

537
00:42:45,748 --> 00:42:46,268
real job.

538
00:42:46,268 --> 00:42:52,588
Because, you know, I'm always, you know, available in the evenings, nights, weekends, you know,

539
00:42:52,588 --> 00:43:00,128
throughout the day if I'm not busy in my day job. I try to make myself available to as many people

540
00:43:00,128 --> 00:43:08,408
as possible. I go around to conferences. I talk. It's a lot. I kind of jokingly say that I'm going

541
00:43:08,408 --> 00:43:16,448
to keep going until I can't, until it's too much or until something breaks. I hope that it doesn't

542
00:43:16,448 --> 00:43:18,168
because I love it.

543
00:43:18,228 --> 00:43:18,968
I love the people.

544
00:43:19,488 --> 00:43:20,608
I love helping people.

545
00:43:21,588 --> 00:43:25,048
And I love the developer relations role.

546
00:43:25,248 --> 00:43:26,628
I love freedom technology.

547
00:43:26,808 --> 00:43:28,108
I truly love it.

548
00:43:28,348 --> 00:43:29,448
Until that changes,

549
00:43:30,488 --> 00:43:32,228
until it becomes something that I hate,

550
00:43:32,568 --> 00:43:34,488
then I'm going to keep doing it.

551
00:43:35,348 --> 00:43:37,248
What's one story that made you think

552
00:43:37,248 --> 00:43:38,668
that's what Nostos for?

553
00:43:39,748 --> 00:43:41,948
So in recent times,

554
00:43:41,948 --> 00:43:55,048
we see the UK and Australia pushing forth bills to require age verification and KYC to use social

555
00:43:55,048 --> 00:44:01,568
media, to use music applications, like to use YouTube, to use Spotify, to listen to songs with

556
00:44:01,568 --> 00:44:10,668
bad lyrics or something. We see this now literally happening today. And this is the exact reason that

557
00:44:10,668 --> 00:44:17,248
Nostra was built, that you shouldn't need to KYC, you shouldn't need to verify, you shouldn't need

558
00:44:17,248 --> 00:44:24,488
to scan your face to be able to listen to a song and to be able to post on social media. And we

559
00:44:24,488 --> 00:44:30,088
actually see this happening now. How do you protect yourself from platform addiction?

560
00:44:31,868 --> 00:44:35,648
Nostra doesn't have these algorithms that pull us back in, that make us addicted,

561
00:44:35,648 --> 00:44:39,508
but maybe you can become addicted to the community

562
00:44:39,508 --> 00:44:44,028
and to the zapping, to the friends,

563
00:44:44,248 --> 00:44:45,748
to the whole movement,

564
00:44:46,048 --> 00:44:47,988
the revolution that we're participating in,

565
00:44:48,028 --> 00:44:48,788
like all of it.

566
00:44:49,028 --> 00:44:51,048
If you want to be drawn in, you can be.

567
00:44:51,468 --> 00:44:54,348
The first 15 years of my life,

568
00:44:54,468 --> 00:44:56,668
there was no internet really,

569
00:44:57,068 --> 00:44:59,128
that I grew up where I could play outside

570
00:44:59,128 --> 00:45:01,908
and be outside and I love that.

571
00:45:02,148 --> 00:45:03,108
On the weekends,

572
00:45:03,868 --> 00:45:06,048
Like I barely use Nostra really on the weekends,

573
00:45:06,128 --> 00:45:06,728
maybe the winter.

574
00:45:06,908 --> 00:45:08,628
But in the summertime, I'm outside.

575
00:45:08,788 --> 00:45:09,728
I'm in the woods.

576
00:45:09,828 --> 00:45:10,248
I'm hiking.

577
00:45:10,368 --> 00:45:11,008
I'm on my boat.

578
00:45:11,088 --> 00:45:11,608
I'm swimming.

579
00:45:11,868 --> 00:45:13,508
Like I'm doing stuff with the family.

580
00:45:13,868 --> 00:45:16,428
Like it's no big deal for me to put my phone down

581
00:45:16,428 --> 00:45:19,068
for a day, two days, the weekend or whatever

582
00:45:19,068 --> 00:45:20,448
and disconnect if I want to.

583
00:45:21,068 --> 00:45:23,528
Have fun in meat space in the real world

584
00:45:23,528 --> 00:45:25,548
and touch grass and touch water.

585
00:45:25,548 --> 00:45:28,928
So I think that I'm able to do that.

586
00:45:29,708 --> 00:45:32,548
What's something that feels decentralized but isn't?

587
00:45:33,108 --> 00:45:34,708
I'll say blue sky.

588
00:45:35,148 --> 00:45:38,228
You know, when people think of blue sky.

589
00:45:38,368 --> 00:45:40,448
People think blue sky is decentralized?

590
00:45:40,688 --> 00:45:41,028
Yeah.

591
00:45:41,308 --> 00:45:50,828
So people were flocking to blue sky because it was a decentralized and open communication protocol.

592
00:45:50,828 --> 00:45:59,168
But how can you truly be decentralized when you have a CEO and a central entity that controls everything?

593
00:45:59,548 --> 00:46:02,668
And they have one central server for everything.

594
00:46:03,108 --> 00:46:06,128
Like they have an identity server that they run.

595
00:46:07,028 --> 00:46:10,048
So Blue Sky is, you know, it's these dinos.

596
00:46:10,288 --> 00:46:12,288
It's a decentralized in name only.

597
00:46:12,708 --> 00:46:16,188
They're not as decentralized as Noster is.

598
00:46:16,188 --> 00:46:23,028
I remember when Blue Sky was first pitched years ago as a decentralized Twitter.

599
00:46:23,268 --> 00:46:24,108
I remember it.

600
00:46:24,588 --> 00:46:27,968
And they started a Discord, I believe, for it.

601
00:46:27,988 --> 00:46:28,908
And I joined the Discord.

602
00:46:29,168 --> 00:46:30,008
And it was really cool.

603
00:46:30,108 --> 00:46:31,928
It was like, we're going to build a decentralized Twitter.

604
00:46:32,008 --> 00:46:32,548
This is awesome.

605
00:46:32,548 --> 00:46:36,488
And I was very excited and followed the project for a while.

606
00:46:36,948 --> 00:46:40,288
And then Nostra came along and I was like, oh, this is being built by Bitcoiners.

607
00:46:40,428 --> 00:46:40,668
Yoink.

608
00:46:41,028 --> 00:46:41,548
And I went in and I went in.

609
00:46:42,888 --> 00:46:46,808
Jack realized from interviews and talking with him,

610
00:46:47,488 --> 00:46:52,028
it sounds like he realized that Blue Sky was making all the same mistakes that Twitter did.

611
00:46:52,148 --> 00:46:57,348
Because it was literally, it was a project that was birthed from inside Twitter,

612
00:46:58,068 --> 00:47:01,408
was X like Twitter employees were building it.

613
00:47:01,408 --> 00:47:06,368
so then they were basically recreating their own twitter with maybe a sprinkle of

614
00:47:06,368 --> 00:47:12,048
decentralization here and there but not truly decentralized and that's why jack left like he

615
00:47:12,048 --> 00:47:17,568
literally deleted his blue sky account he left the board of directors and he went all in on

616
00:47:17,568 --> 00:47:22,688
nostr because he realized that you know nostr was better and i i think that at the end of the day

617
00:47:22,688 --> 00:47:27,768
people don't care the average person does not care about the technology stack they just want it to

618
00:47:27,768 --> 00:47:33,428
work. And if Blue Sky functions and works better than Noster and says they're decentralized,

619
00:47:34,168 --> 00:47:37,708
the average person's not going to look into it. It's just going to work. And they know that it

620
00:47:37,708 --> 00:47:42,548
works for them. So then they try Noster and it's a little buggy and things don't work as well. And

621
00:47:42,548 --> 00:47:48,288
they're like, oh, well, I'm going to use the thing that says it's decentralized, but it works better.

622
00:47:48,648 --> 00:47:55,388
And that's good enough for them. Check it with Fiat Jeff, but I've been told that he had an

623
00:47:55,388 --> 00:48:01,028
interview with Blue Sky. After the interview of Twinis, he said that they were a bunch of

624
00:48:01,028 --> 00:48:08,288
communists. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah, they interviewed him years ago when they were looking

625
00:48:08,288 --> 00:48:14,088
for developers and everything. Yeah. So he looked into it and he was like, oh, I don't want to do

626
00:48:14,088 --> 00:48:18,908
this. And then Nostra was born. But that's a funny aside a lot of people don't know.

627
00:48:19,548 --> 00:48:25,088
What's the difference between free speech and free reach? And do you think most people confuse

628
00:48:25,088 --> 00:48:34,028
the two. Yeah, I do. And I think that Twitter X, Elon has helped play that role, helped confuse

629
00:48:34,028 --> 00:48:39,648
people because initially Elon said he wanted to buy Twitter to make it the open free speech town

630
00:48:39,648 --> 00:48:45,548
square and then immediately locked down the town square and said that you can say whatever you want,

631
00:48:45,628 --> 00:48:50,948
but we're not going to let your content be seen by everybody. So, and they coined the phrase

632
00:48:50,948 --> 00:48:58,928
freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach. And that in theory, I guess that kind of exists on

633
00:48:58,928 --> 00:49:06,188
Noster, right? Because I can say whatever I want to on Noster, but that doesn't mean that

634
00:49:06,188 --> 00:49:12,388
if I'm only publishing to one relay and only one relay sees my content, that doesn't mean that

635
00:49:12,388 --> 00:49:19,568
every client and every relay see my content. But the difference is, is that I'm in control

636
00:49:19,568 --> 00:49:25,568
with Noster and that users are in control. And if they want to see my content, they can subscribe to

637
00:49:25,568 --> 00:49:30,528
my profile. They can subscribe to my relay, things like that, and they can see it. So I still think

638
00:49:30,528 --> 00:49:35,808
Noster is better in that regard. It's just that it requires a little bit of proof of work maybe

639
00:49:35,808 --> 00:49:43,988
to find that content. And the fact that you're in control and you're not permissioned and you're not

640
00:49:43,988 --> 00:49:51,908
having to deal with an entity to say that you're allowed to have reach or you're not allowed to have

641
00:49:51,908 --> 00:49:56,828
reach, which is literally what Twitter or X does, that they're telling you you're allowed or you're

642
00:49:56,828 --> 00:50:02,828
not allowed to have reach and you can pay for the reach. You don't have to do that with Nostra.

643
00:50:02,828 --> 00:50:07,148
They don't tell you anything and they just shadow ban you and make sure that you don't

644
00:50:07,148 --> 00:50:10,648
reach anyone. That's the worst thing is they just shadow ban you. You don't know that you don't have

645
00:50:10,648 --> 00:50:15,628
reach. You're posting up a storm and you think, man, my content must suck. Nobody's interacting

646
00:50:15,628 --> 00:50:19,788
with it, but it's because you're shadow banned and you don't know. Or just, yeah, only a couple

647
00:50:19,788 --> 00:50:25,908
people see it or something. Yeah. Nostra isn't the same way, but we at least put you in control

648
00:50:25,908 --> 00:50:30,388
and give users the power to be in control, to find content.

649
00:50:31,128 --> 00:50:34,308
Is freedom on Nostra quietly being shaped by clients?

650
00:50:35,108 --> 00:50:36,508
I'll say, sure.

651
00:50:36,668 --> 00:50:43,208
And that's by design where you can have a client, an app, do whatever they want to.

652
00:50:43,468 --> 00:50:46,988
And since it's an open protocol and anybody can do whatever they want to, there will be

653
00:50:46,988 --> 00:50:58,332
apps that maybe display content in a more centralized way So there a client called Primal

654
00:50:58,992 --> 00:51:03,672
Their take is to run a little centralization piece

655
00:51:03,672 --> 00:51:05,552
to make Nostr better.

656
00:51:06,212 --> 00:51:07,312
Nostr is very decentralized,

657
00:51:07,652 --> 00:51:10,952
meaning there's servers or relays all over the world.

658
00:51:11,432 --> 00:51:14,672
And these relays are your Nostr servers

659
00:51:14,672 --> 00:51:18,972
that store your content, your social transactions.

660
00:51:18,972 --> 00:51:19,932
They store it all.

661
00:51:21,292 --> 00:51:23,132
Sometimes relays can be down

662
00:51:23,132 --> 00:51:25,232
because they're just run like individuals like me.

663
00:51:25,992 --> 00:51:27,332
They can be slow.

664
00:51:27,512 --> 00:51:29,272
They can be overwhelmed with content.

665
00:51:29,372 --> 00:51:29,792
Who knows?

666
00:51:30,112 --> 00:51:32,652
They're just pieces of software that people run.

667
00:51:32,932 --> 00:51:33,892
And for whatever reason,

668
00:51:34,032 --> 00:51:36,572
sometimes one relay is more performant than another.

669
00:51:37,692 --> 00:51:41,212
Well, this creates a little bit of a performance issue.

670
00:51:41,212 --> 00:51:45,812
if I have to connect to all of my relays to view content,

671
00:51:45,992 --> 00:51:48,212
sometimes this can have a negative effect.

672
00:51:48,832 --> 00:51:53,492
So Primal said, let's fix this

673
00:51:53,492 --> 00:51:57,932
and let's come up with our own caching or index server.

674
00:51:58,112 --> 00:52:01,332
So what they do is they go out to all the relays

675
00:52:01,332 --> 00:52:03,632
or a majority of them, probably not all of them.

676
00:52:03,632 --> 00:52:05,852
They go out to as many relays as they can

677
00:52:05,852 --> 00:52:07,752
from hundreds and hundreds of relays

678
00:52:07,752 --> 00:52:09,432
and they download all of the content

679
00:52:09,432 --> 00:52:11,992
and they put all that content on,

680
00:52:12,652 --> 00:52:14,632
think of it as one central relay.

681
00:52:15,032 --> 00:52:19,412
So then primal users connect to that one central relay

682
00:52:19,412 --> 00:52:20,672
to view all of the content.

683
00:52:21,412 --> 00:52:24,252
Now they can do multiple things then

684
00:52:24,252 --> 00:52:27,192
since they're kind of now the central relay.

685
00:52:27,652 --> 00:52:30,852
You know, they can make it fast and performant for people

686
00:52:30,852 --> 00:52:32,492
and that's the whole reason that they do it.

687
00:52:33,272 --> 00:52:35,412
But then they could also, if they wanted to,

688
00:52:35,492 --> 00:52:38,532
they could filter, sensor content.

689
00:52:38,532 --> 00:52:47,232
And because now that centralized piece is in play, some people don't like how Primal was handling it for that reason.

690
00:52:48,092 --> 00:52:52,452
Primal realizes this, that they are a central point of failure now.

691
00:52:52,852 --> 00:53:00,452
So they built their application to allow other people to run a indexing or caching relay.

692
00:53:00,732 --> 00:53:02,972
And then they give their users a choice.

693
00:53:02,972 --> 00:53:08,572
so I could run my own primal indexing or caching relay if I wanted to.

694
00:53:08,912 --> 00:53:10,052
And then I could tell the community,

695
00:53:10,212 --> 00:53:12,832
hey, if you don't like the way they handle stuff, use Derek's.

696
00:53:13,312 --> 00:53:14,152
You could run one.

697
00:53:14,292 --> 00:53:16,252
We could say we could use CK as a relay.

698
00:53:16,672 --> 00:53:18,572
Anybody and everybody can run one.

699
00:53:18,952 --> 00:53:19,832
While on Primal?

700
00:53:20,092 --> 00:53:20,452
Yes.

701
00:53:20,872 --> 00:53:22,292
So you could run your own.

702
00:53:22,332 --> 00:53:23,272
I could run my own.

703
00:53:23,892 --> 00:53:28,552
It's still a centralization piece, but there's user choice now.

704
00:53:29,072 --> 00:53:31,612
So you could use Derek's centralized relay.

705
00:53:31,612 --> 00:53:33,552
You could use this person's centralized relay.

706
00:53:33,692 --> 00:53:35,512
You could use primal centralized relay.

707
00:53:35,732 --> 00:53:36,432
I have to choose.

708
00:53:36,532 --> 00:53:39,092
I cannot use yours, mine, and primal.

709
00:53:39,092 --> 00:53:39,972
It would only be one.

710
00:53:40,432 --> 00:53:43,232
Because it's this, think of it as like an aggregator.

711
00:53:43,492 --> 00:53:46,352
There's relays all over the place.

712
00:53:46,572 --> 00:53:50,752
This indexer, it pulls them all together into one central relay

713
00:53:50,752 --> 00:53:55,452
to make user experience faster and better and more performant.

714
00:53:55,452 --> 00:54:04,432
But with that central piece, now there's potential for any type of filtering or centralization.

715
00:54:04,992 --> 00:54:06,832
And some people don't like that.

716
00:54:07,432 --> 00:54:11,452
Centralization works better, but the whole point of Nostra is decentralization.

717
00:54:12,412 --> 00:54:12,572
Yeah.

718
00:54:12,932 --> 00:54:18,992
But the counter argument to this is, if you don't like what Primal is doing, then use a different app.

719
00:54:19,472 --> 00:54:21,932
I use Amethyst for Android.

720
00:54:22,352 --> 00:54:24,252
Amethyst only exists for Android.

721
00:54:24,252 --> 00:54:26,532
for iOS you have Domus

722
00:54:26,532 --> 00:54:27,492
which we've talked about

723
00:54:27,492 --> 00:54:29,432
you can also use Nosteur

724
00:54:29,432 --> 00:54:31,112
it's N-O-S-T-U-R

725
00:54:31,112 --> 00:54:32,332
it's like the French saying

726
00:54:32,332 --> 00:54:34,632
you can use Nosteur

727
00:54:34,632 --> 00:54:36,472
you can use irish.to

728
00:54:36,472 --> 00:54:38,392
you can use jumble.social

729
00:54:38,392 --> 00:54:40,552
you can use coracle.social

730
00:54:40,552 --> 00:54:43,712
there's nostrudel.ninja

731
00:54:43,712 --> 00:54:45,792
there's all sorts of

732
00:54:45,792 --> 00:54:48,252
Nostre apps out there

733
00:54:48,252 --> 00:54:49,392
that are all web based

734
00:54:49,392 --> 00:54:50,172
and some of them

735
00:54:50,172 --> 00:54:52,312
actually Coracle has an Android

736
00:54:52,312 --> 00:54:53,512
and an iOS app

737
00:54:53,512 --> 00:54:55,572
that you could install the Coracle app on your phone.

738
00:54:55,772 --> 00:54:57,212
But many of them are web-based.

739
00:54:57,472 --> 00:54:58,592
So there's all sorts of choices.

740
00:54:59,112 --> 00:55:00,972
And that's the beauty we've talked about earlier

741
00:55:00,972 --> 00:55:02,832
is since you have this identity,

742
00:55:03,032 --> 00:55:05,872
this key, private key that you control,

743
00:55:06,212 --> 00:55:08,812
if you don't like what one client is doing,

744
00:55:08,972 --> 00:55:11,072
take it and go to another one.

745
00:55:11,172 --> 00:55:13,412
You live with your content and your followers.

746
00:55:13,412 --> 00:55:15,192
It's literally how Nostra works.

747
00:55:15,792 --> 00:55:17,512
If you think like the average person

748
00:55:17,512 --> 00:55:20,132
does not care about decentralization and censorship.

749
00:55:20,392 --> 00:55:22,792
Like we've said this, they don't.

750
00:55:22,792 --> 00:55:25,532
Until something happens that affects them, they don't care.

751
00:55:25,532 --> 00:55:33,172
So the average person would use Primal and not care about their central caching relay.

752
00:55:33,312 --> 00:55:33,692
They won't.

753
00:55:33,772 --> 00:55:36,572
They just want their app to be fast and performant and work.

754
00:55:37,132 --> 00:55:42,372
But maybe in the future, there'll be multiple indexing services that people can run.

755
00:55:42,512 --> 00:55:45,752
Maybe I've talked about running one specifically for this reason,

756
00:55:45,932 --> 00:55:50,492
because every time this comes up, people kind of shit on Primal

757
00:55:50,492 --> 00:55:52,972
for running a centralized service.

758
00:55:53,272 --> 00:55:54,192
And then I say, you know what?

759
00:55:54,272 --> 00:55:55,352
I like these guys.

760
00:55:55,432 --> 00:55:55,972
They're my friends.

761
00:55:56,372 --> 00:55:57,572
I've met them multiple times.

762
00:55:57,612 --> 00:55:58,672
I talk to them all the time.

763
00:55:59,432 --> 00:56:02,952
Primal guys, I'm going to run a Primal caching server

764
00:56:02,952 --> 00:56:04,752
to give a second option.

765
00:56:05,052 --> 00:56:07,532
To answer your question, long-winded, get back to it.

766
00:56:07,552 --> 00:56:09,292
Clients can absolutely centralize,

767
00:56:09,692 --> 00:56:10,872
but we have user choice.

768
00:56:11,172 --> 00:56:13,852
Primal knows they have a centralized piece of the puzzle.

769
00:56:14,012 --> 00:56:14,532
They know that.

770
00:56:14,532 --> 00:56:17,512
And that's why they try to give you as many user controls

771
00:56:17,512 --> 00:56:20,332
and as user options for the more powerful,

772
00:56:20,492 --> 00:56:26,852
powerful users that want these type of choices. That's why you can request deletes on Prima

773
00:56:26,852 --> 00:56:31,612
easier than if, for example, you were using Iris. Is that the case?

774
00:56:31,652 --> 00:56:33,932
Well, it would delete off the caching server. Yeah.

775
00:56:34,112 --> 00:56:34,432
Okay.

776
00:56:34,892 --> 00:56:42,192
I believe whenever you publish, it publishes to all of, it goes to the caching server and

777
00:56:42,192 --> 00:56:45,872
then it goes to all of your relays or vice versa. I don't remember which way it goes, but

778
00:56:45,872 --> 00:56:50,892
your content that you post still does go out to all of your relays. Primal forwards it or

779
00:56:50,892 --> 00:56:57,112
broadcasts it on to all of your relays that you use. So it's not like they're just keeping your

780
00:56:57,112 --> 00:57:02,312
content or your delete request only on their server. They're sending it on to all the other

781
00:57:02,312 --> 00:57:08,192
servers that use all your other relays that you use. For me to understand that they could if they

782
00:57:08,192 --> 00:57:14,692
wanted. Yeah, sure. If they wanted to, I guess their application could only publish to their own

783
00:57:14,692 --> 00:57:21,012
one relay if they wanted to. Any client can do that. Yeah. What about the algorithms within

784
00:57:21,012 --> 00:57:29,452
NOSTA clients? Most, I'll say most, the majority of NOSTA clients don't have algorithms.

785
00:57:31,352 --> 00:57:37,252
Well, one, because algorithms are hard. And two, some people just don't like algorithms.

786
00:57:37,252 --> 00:57:44,772
but also uh you know there people are waiting i would say some developers are waiting for the

787
00:57:44,772 --> 00:57:52,232
best way to implement them like like iris has a for you algorithm primal has trending algorithms

788
00:57:52,232 --> 00:58:00,352
snort now called phoenix has a uh algorithm like a for you type algorithm and what do they do they

789
00:58:00,352 --> 00:58:06,432
they look at content for you you know they they but they give you a choice you know you don't have

790
00:58:06,432 --> 00:58:12,672
to use it if you don't want to. The algorithms are open source. So you could go to the projects

791
00:58:12,672 --> 00:58:18,752
like Git repository and you could look at the code if you were a developer. But I think one of

792
00:58:18,752 --> 00:58:25,612
the more interesting approaches that we have is this DVM. It's very technical. It's called a data

793
00:58:25,612 --> 00:58:32,032
vending machine. It's what Primal uses. It's what Nostrudel uses and Amethyst uses, where you allow

794
00:58:32,032 --> 00:58:37,232
other developers to build all these different feed types, these different algorithms. And if

795
00:58:37,232 --> 00:58:42,132
you want to view that feed type, that type, that content from that algorithm, you just have to

796
00:58:42,132 --> 00:58:49,052
navigate in the app and find that section and then view it. So it doesn't replace your home feed

797
00:58:49,052 --> 00:58:56,672
unless you want it to. Is there a way to unclick the algorithms? So you can do that on Primal.

798
00:58:56,672 --> 00:59:04,892
Primal has a, they call it a feed marketplace. The feed marketplace is a collection of algorithms

799
00:59:04,892 --> 00:59:10,432
and feeds that people have built, other developers. So you can choose to view some,

800
00:59:10,552 --> 00:59:17,792
a feed that a different developer wrote, and you could then go and look at the content and see

801
00:59:17,792 --> 00:59:22,632
how the algorithm works. So it's very open and it's user choice. That's something that we don't

802
00:59:22,632 --> 00:59:28,392
have like on like Twitter, you can't use and choose your own algorithm. You know, you use the

803
00:59:28,392 --> 00:59:34,112
company's algorithm and that's what you get. Whereas with this feed marketplace, I can choose

804
00:59:34,112 --> 00:59:38,272
developer one's algorithm developers, two algorithm developer, three algorithm, whatever.

805
00:59:38,532 --> 00:59:44,032
You can completely change that and pick and choose if you want to. So it's tons of user choice.

806
00:59:44,532 --> 00:59:49,432
Not every client has that. Some do. There's like three or four that have that built in.

807
00:59:49,432 --> 00:59:57,172
And Domus wants to add similar features, but they want a different approach to it.

808
00:59:57,572 --> 01:00:15,232
They want it to be local first, meaning that the user is more in control and can create their own algorithms and their own feed types instead of using what somebody else has already created, like what a developer has already created and running themselves.

809
01:00:15,232 --> 01:00:21,932
so it's just a different approach to tackle the same goal so i think that's always been a goal

810
01:00:21,932 --> 01:00:30,052
with nostre developers is to have like a feed store or an algorithm store where you can buy

811
01:00:30,052 --> 01:00:34,992
and choose and pick and configure all the algorithms yourself if you want to and i think

812
01:00:34,992 --> 01:00:40,012
we need that like when people hear algorithms i think oh algorithms are bad they don't have to be

813
01:00:40,012 --> 01:00:46,052
bad. Algorithms can be good. Algorithms can be good if they're open and they're transparent and

814
01:00:46,052 --> 01:00:52,372
they give us user choice. If I can personalize my feed, that's great. Yeah. So if you can do that,

815
01:00:52,592 --> 01:00:56,092
and we're slowly getting there. A year ago, the feed marketplace launched.

816
01:00:56,732 --> 01:01:02,812
Domus is working on their own internal version of this for local first. And they're slowly

817
01:01:02,812 --> 01:01:09,172
getting there with their AI, like Dave in the app. You'll be able to say to Dave,

818
01:01:09,172 --> 01:01:13,372
Hey, Dave, build me a feed of this content and AI will go out there and build your content.

819
01:01:13,752 --> 01:01:18,072
And then you'll be able to save that and then have your AI built feed that you personally built.

820
01:01:18,632 --> 01:01:20,492
So that's how they're going to do it.

821
01:01:20,532 --> 01:01:21,132
So it's coming.

822
01:01:21,292 --> 01:01:24,692
It's just, we just, you know, we got to give developers time to build it.

823
01:01:24,992 --> 01:01:27,492
To wrap up, I want to ask you about the big picture.

824
01:01:27,772 --> 01:01:29,552
Why do we need Nostra right now?

825
01:01:29,552 --> 01:01:52,552
Well, I think as we're seeing this happen now, as more governments and more tech companies advertise for Noster, show us that there's a KYC and a permissioned internet where you have to request to do certain things.

826
01:01:52,952 --> 01:01:58,552
There's a divergence happening and there is a permissionless open and free internet happening.

827
01:01:59,552 --> 01:02:02,852
And we're really seeing this happen in real time.

828
01:02:02,852 --> 01:02:05,152
And it's really weird to me.

829
01:02:05,632 --> 01:02:09,792
It's something that people have kind of warned about for years that this could happen.

830
01:02:09,892 --> 01:02:13,612
And that's why we need freedom technology, because this will happen someday.

831
01:02:13,892 --> 01:02:17,632
And then literally over the past six months, we've seen it actually starting to happen.

832
01:02:17,792 --> 01:02:19,772
In real time, it's accelerating.

833
01:02:20,312 --> 01:02:27,792
So I truly believe that we're going to come to this tipping point where the average person

834
01:02:27,792 --> 01:02:35,272
is going to know that this is wrong and that the internet is changing or has changed. And there's

835
01:02:35,272 --> 01:02:43,232
this open, free, fun internet over here. I think we're moving that way. And Noster will be there

836
01:02:43,232 --> 01:02:48,392
for when people need it most. What does success look like for you personally,

837
01:02:48,392 --> 01:02:56,072
not for Noster? For me personally, I think success for me would be Noster's aha moment,

838
01:02:56,072 --> 01:03:01,472
the light bulb moment where we purple pill somebody.

839
01:03:01,672 --> 01:03:02,872
I purple pill somebody.

840
01:03:02,972 --> 01:03:05,472
They go home, they purple pill their whole entire community,

841
01:03:05,732 --> 01:03:07,912
and we start seeing Nostra growth happening

842
01:03:07,912 --> 01:03:14,532
where Nostra is growing by tens of thousands of users a day,

843
01:03:15,112 --> 01:03:16,412
millions of users a day.

844
01:03:17,272 --> 01:03:21,492
Similar to what happened with Blue Sky,

845
01:03:21,492 --> 01:03:24,852
there was an incident that happened in Brazil

846
01:03:24,852 --> 01:03:29,512
where Brazilians got locked out of Twitter.

847
01:03:29,912 --> 01:03:30,352
Oh, yes.

848
01:03:30,952 --> 01:03:33,012
And Blue Sky blew up from that

849
01:03:33,012 --> 01:03:34,772
because they needed an alternative

850
01:03:34,772 --> 01:03:36,032
that couldn't be turned off.

851
01:03:36,892 --> 01:03:38,652
So, I mean, Blue Sky could be banned too.

852
01:03:39,072 --> 01:03:40,292
But that's the funny thing

853
01:03:40,292 --> 01:03:43,452
is that they moved over to Blue Sky

854
01:03:43,452 --> 01:03:47,072
and they grew by millions and millions of users like a day.

855
01:03:47,272 --> 01:03:47,972
It was crazy.

856
01:03:48,532 --> 01:03:50,312
I don't know what they're at now,

857
01:03:50,392 --> 01:03:51,572
but at one time I looked,

858
01:03:51,652 --> 01:03:53,852
they were at like 30 some million users.

859
01:03:53,852 --> 01:03:59,312
now that number has gone down a little bit but they still have a you know many many millions of

860
01:03:59,312 --> 01:04:07,232
tens of millions of users and i was kind of sad thinking this was nostrils like chance to to shine

861
01:04:07,232 --> 01:04:12,072
we could have literally shown them hey and then part of me was like oh man i hope blue sky gets

862
01:04:12,072 --> 01:04:17,572
banned next because then then we can see the blue sky is still centralized and that you can't ban

863
01:04:17,572 --> 01:04:25,412
Noster, they can't ban all the clients, all the relays, all the servers. So my metric of success

864
01:04:25,412 --> 01:04:33,332
is I want to see Noster go mainstream. Then I know that what I've been working on and spending

865
01:04:33,332 --> 01:04:40,252
so much time of my personal life, so much of my personal money, blood, sweat, and tears over the

866
01:04:40,252 --> 01:04:46,732
past two and a half years that I want it to be for something. I want Noster to grow and take off

867
01:04:46,732 --> 01:04:53,312
to where it isn't just 20,000 people using it on every day on a daily basis.

868
01:04:53,312 --> 01:04:54,912
There's millions of people using it.

869
01:04:55,332 --> 01:04:59,472
If you stopped building tomorrow, what would you hope would stay?

870
01:05:00,192 --> 01:05:06,072
I would hope that somebody else would step up and take my place and build

871
01:05:06,072 --> 01:05:09,652
and continue pushing and growing and onboarding.

872
01:05:09,792 --> 01:05:11,832
I know there's other people that do.

873
01:05:11,832 --> 01:05:21,712
I have plenty of friends in this industry that are contributing just as much as I am that are building and onboarding and trying to grow Nostra.

874
01:05:21,872 --> 01:05:25,872
I truly believe that it takes a community of people.

875
01:05:26,172 --> 01:05:33,032
And so if I step down and I decide to not do this anymore, I hope 10 people step up to fill my void.

876
01:05:33,032 --> 01:05:34,132
Last one.

877
01:05:34,672 --> 01:05:36,152
Fast forward to 2035.

878
01:05:36,152 --> 01:05:46,552
what's the one way you hope no store has changed how we live online i hope that we get to a

879
01:05:46,552 --> 01:05:56,452
method where everybody can run their own relay and if they want to with like a click of a button

880
01:05:56,452 --> 01:06:04,932
i think that maybe we'll have like family relays or something like every house will have a relay

881
01:06:04,932 --> 01:06:07,052
and we could literally do that

882
01:06:07,052 --> 01:06:09,552
maybe we'll get to the point where

883
01:06:09,552 --> 01:06:10,432
technology

884
01:06:10,432 --> 01:06:13,212
becomes so easy

885
01:06:13,212 --> 01:06:14,612
that

886
01:06:14,612 --> 01:06:16,252
people don't really

887
01:06:16,252 --> 01:06:18,712
they don't know they're using Nostra

888
01:06:18,712 --> 01:06:20,952
they're just using their next favorite social app

889
01:06:20,952 --> 01:06:23,672
we don't say hey do you use Nostra

890
01:06:23,672 --> 01:06:24,832
we just say hey

891
01:06:24,832 --> 01:06:27,552
let's communicate let's talk

892
01:06:27,552 --> 01:06:29,752
and nobody can be

893
01:06:29,752 --> 01:06:31,832
censored because everybody runs their own content

894
01:06:31,832 --> 01:06:33,652
and broadcasts

895
01:06:33,652 --> 01:06:34,832
to their friends and their family

896
01:06:34,832 --> 01:06:36,212
and their community relays.

897
01:06:36,552 --> 01:06:37,632
That's the utopia.

898
01:06:37,972 --> 01:06:39,412
Yeah, it's a beautiful question.

899
01:06:39,652 --> 01:06:40,772
I hope we can get there.

900
01:06:40,912 --> 01:06:42,632
And I think that we will.

901
01:06:42,912 --> 01:06:44,452
We just got to keep building

902
01:06:44,452 --> 01:06:46,472
and we just got to keep working hard

903
01:06:46,472 --> 01:06:47,812
and getting the message out there

904
01:06:47,812 --> 01:06:49,952
and eventually we'll prevail.

905
01:06:50,292 --> 01:06:50,492
Yeah.

906
01:06:50,892 --> 01:06:52,112
It's been a pleasure, Derek.

907
01:06:52,272 --> 01:06:53,392
Thanks for your time,

908
01:06:53,592 --> 01:06:54,952
this generous conversation

909
01:06:54,952 --> 01:06:57,032
and everything you are doing

910
01:06:57,032 --> 01:06:58,312
to keep voices free.

911
01:06:58,672 --> 01:06:59,352
Yes, thank you.

912
01:06:59,412 --> 01:07:00,252
Thank you for having me.

913
01:07:00,292 --> 01:07:01,272
It was a great conversation.

914
01:07:01,452 --> 01:07:03,152
I thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you.

915
01:07:03,152 --> 01:07:05,892
So where can people follow you and your work?

916
01:07:06,012 --> 01:07:08,092
Well, you can't follow me anywhere else but Noster.

917
01:07:08,212 --> 01:07:09,492
I deleted them all, I said.

918
01:07:09,632 --> 01:07:11,772
So you can follow me on Noster.

919
01:07:12,612 --> 01:07:15,392
I'm Derek Ross at grownoster.org.

920
01:07:15,432 --> 01:07:17,772
That is my Noster address.

921
01:07:18,052 --> 01:07:21,932
You can also check out grownoster at grownoster.org.

922
01:07:22,012 --> 01:07:25,972
And then you can follow all of the things that I'm saying and doing and building

923
01:07:25,972 --> 01:07:32,212
and all the developer relations stuff that I'm doing with Soapbox by checking out Soapbox as well.

924
01:07:32,212 --> 01:07:35,352
Can't wait to have you back. Until then, stay sovereign.

925
01:07:35,532 --> 01:07:35,912
Thank you.