The purpose and the passion was like granted to me.
Whether this is from a genetic thing that comes super deep,
you know, like maybe just genetically or imprinted,
like this is what you're going to be interested in.
Or maybe if it's like a spiritual thing,
like maybe my soul was always destined to be interested in wanting to do this kind of thing.
Whatever it is, I think it was just, it was predetermined at birth.
And it's almost like that's what I always wanted to do.
Thank you for joining me.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Can't wait to have this very juicy conversation.
And let's start by stating the obvious,
because there's a lot of big changes that are happening in your life.
And I want to dive into the journey,
the future that's coming out from this major revelation.
You recently made the bold move of going public with your real name
after years of operating under the name of Peruvian Ball.
Yes, yes.
What was that thought process like?
Because that was a big shift out of nowhere.
Yeah, for a lot of people who just saw it,
they were like, it seemed like it came out of nowhere.
But I had been talking to several other creators
for quite a few months that have been recommending me
to make this move, to make this shift.
There's, you know, Mark Moss and Ian Carroll
who were both recommending that, you know,
as I keep growing and especially as I pass like, you know, certain thresholds in Bitcoin land and
macro and finance, like people are going to want to know my real name. The issue with running
anonymous is that there's definitely a safety feature and like you can kind of hide behind
the pseudonym, right? If you're Bitcoin Gandalf or if you're Peruvian bull, you're just like this
shadowy figure on the internet and no one really knows who you are or what you are. And so they
can't really attack you personally as easily. And I realized that I was just kind of staying in a rut.
I was getting too comfortable with that name and getting too comfortable with who I was. And for
this next stage of growth, which I have a lot of huge initiatives and plans coming up, I need to be
public and I need to be out there. So I decided to make the move, but it was definitely scary.
What was not serving you with Peruvian Ball? What were the things that you couldn't do with
the pseudonym back then that you felt like you needed to come?
Sure. So there's a couple of things. For one, on Twitter, there's definitely like the younger demographics, like people my age, your age. We all we can understand if someone's anonymous online. Like there's reasons why it would happen. We've seen a bunch of famous people on Bitcoin, Twitter be anonymous. And so it's kind of like part of our cultural milieu in our environment. Right. We understand it.
But for older people, especially past, you know, 38, 39 and into their 40s, they didn't grow up with the internet like we did.
And so they don't understand that environment.
And so I noticed that like especially, you know, yeah, more senior seasoned entrepreneurs, more senior seasoned people were saying that like, I don't want to invite you on my show because I don't even know who Peruvian Bull is.
Like I would only bring on someone who shows their real name.
And so, yeah, there are people who said that.
Yeah.
And ever since I went public, I've actually gotten interviews for, I've gotten interview
invites for other shows that were like specifically finance or macro focused that were waiting
for me to tell my name, apparently.
Bitcoin is, it's a revolution, not only obviously in money, but it's also a revolution in thinking.
And so like the culture is completely different than traditional finance.
Traditional finance is very like, you know, tight collar, you know, stiff upper lip.
Like this is my pomp and circumstance.
This is who I am.
They're being very formal.
And so if I don't share my name, like none of the traditional finance podcasts would have me on as like a guest.
Right. Really. Like there's a few, but like there's tiny, all the big ones, all the ones that you need to be on.
I wouldn't let me on. And, you know, I got the grace to get to TFTC, you know, Marty Ben's podcast and Robert Breedlove's podcast.
But again, they understand that a pseudonym because they're in the Bitcoin space, but no one else really did.
This trend or this behavior in a more, let's say, yet we're tried by space.
Why you need a real name and a real identity to even be out there.
They're showing your credibility and your knowledge is the same.
I know it's kind of ridiculous, but it's again, I think it's just their nostalgia for the world that was right in their world.
There was no reason. There was no Internet pseudonyms.
There's no Internet posting. So like everyone just went by the real name by default.
And so they're just so stuck in their old ways that that's what they want to do.
They just want to continue to perpetuate what was.
And if you've talked about this for a while, why make the move now?
So I made the move now because for one, I went to the Bitcoin conference and I spoke.
And I've had this problem before where I go to a conference or I go to a meetup and everyone
was just like, hi, you know, what's your name?
And I'm like, my name is Roberto.
And they're just like, OK, yeah, whatever.
And, you know, what do you do?
Yeah, I'm bored.
And they're just like, I'm Peruvian.
Bowl. And they're like, you're a Peruvian Bowl? Dude, I follow you on Twitter. And I'm like,
yeah, like, you didn't recognize me? They're like, no, what the prick? That's so awesome.
They're like freaking out. And I'm like, well, this is kind of bad that I can't,
because I don't feel comfortable going up to people at a party and saying, hi, I'm Peruvian
Bowl. That's just weird. Even among the Bitcoin space, like in person, like imagine if I was at a
party and I introduced myself to you and you're like, I'm Vivian. I'm like, hey, I'm Peruvian
bull. You'd be like, okay, that's kind of weird. So it's just not natural in human conversation to
social groups to actually say like a pseudonym as like your real name. And so I was like,
this is just too awkward. And at the Bitcoin conference, right, I went to some after parties.
And obviously when I did, I did a panel with Ben and with Ian Carroll and they all both,
they both use their real names. And then I said, my name is Peruvian bull. And then I had people
come up to me and be like, wait, what's your username again? How do I find it? What's your
Twitter? How do I like where it's just confusing for people. And so a lot of especially older people
were just confused. And I just it was just hit hitting home to me that what people had said,
like Mark and Ian was like, correct. It was like people are this is just confusing, especially the
older generations. And I need to be public. It's time. And for the next stage of growth that I'm
looking at, like being public is probably the right move. Was it a big and was it a hard decision?
Yeah, it was. It was. I would say two senses. One, I was growing, you know, I just was so accustomed to using Peruvian Bowl. It was just comfortable, right? Imagine using the same name online for like five years and then posting and I grow to like 100,000 followers. And it's hard for me to think like I need to, you know, that's a huge change. A lot of my followers didn't want to do it.
And then number two, I saw that and I felt that, especially when we went to Grand Canyon
trip, like I was actually anxious about changing it because I was worried that like I would
get a lot of flack.
I write macro stuff, but I'm also a Bitcoiner and there's not many people that intersect
those two Venn diagrams.
There's a lot of macro people that just stick to finance, traditional finance, and there's
a lot of Bitcoiners, but there's not many who cross those lines.
And the ones who do are way bigger than me, like Lin Alden, you know, Luke Roman, you
know, people with like huge businesses.
And so I'm like one of the few smaller, I guess you saw smaller midsize creators that's doing this.
And so, yeah, I realized I was like, man, my fear is of like judgment is getting is holding me back.
And this just desire to have things stay the same is holding me back.
And I just need to break through it because, like, you know, as a creator, a creative, you can't let the old version of you continually cling on to you.
You have to if you want to grow and move forward, you have to break through those barriers and break through those things blocking you.
I definitely could relate.
before starting doing this podcast there's definitely a thought process of okay so before
you're a bitcoiner and now you're still a bitcoiner but now you're you're putting yourself out there
and it's your face and your name and people will and you can be everybody can be entitled
to their own opinions but if you're going public and having a platform for yourself then you will
start to have people think one way or another. How do you, I know it's still been new for you,
but have you noticed any change of relating to your work and your personal life after you've
come public? Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, first off, I got more interview podcasts or interview
requests for podcasts and more like, I guess you could say business opportunities, people reaching
saying like, wow, I'm so proud you came public. I looked you up on LinkedIn. Oh, I know who you
are now. Blah, blah, blah. I went to, you know, you went to Gonzaga University. I went there too.
Let's talk about, you know, potentially working together or let's talk about doing some content
together or whatever. So I've had definitely those things, but then mostly it's just been
positive. People were just like, wow, that's a brave thing to do to go public. Cause like now
I can actually take real flack. People can find me for who I am. It's, you know, it comes with
the territory, right, with being public. I'm sure you'd have the same thing as well, right? You might
get flack sometimes on Twitter or wherever for having tags. That's just part of life.
What was the thought process like for you to break from the fear and the doubt of going public?
Because you've been doing this for years and then you have a well-established persona that you could
continue. And is there any reactions that surprised you after you come public?
There was a couple people who were upset and they were like, you know, you're giving up on this huge brand.
You've blown it.
Like, I don't want to follow you anymore.
You know, I definitely had some unfollows.
And that's just, I understand your opinion.
I'm glad that you were so connected to the Proving Bull character.
But that's, you know, I'm ultimately in control of my creative journey.
I'm ultimately in control.
Just like you have your podcast and you want to curate like the topics, the themes, the guests.
I'm also in the same way in control of who I am and how I present myself.
So I said, look, I appreciate everyone's opinions, but this is ultimately my decision and I'm choosing this.
Maybe it's a mistake. Maybe you're right.
But I'm doing it regardless because I'm tired of sticking with this Peruvian bull thing that's keeping me kind of restricted in what I can do.
Yes, you're right.
Ultimately, it will be coming down to us being honest.
Us being radically honest with ourselves
and choose our lives in a way that feels authentic to us.
And then rest is about, I guess in a way, self-selection
because people then can see if you naturally vibe together.
And if you don't, then go find people that you vibe with, I guess.
It's interesting because you're saying that you're trying to come public
to serve your purpose better,
to appear more credible, apparently, it seems like,
and to be able to share your message to more people.
And we see people who are advocates of Bitcoin privacy
or important issues, and they take the opposite approach.
We see industry KOLs like Upco Rockstar Dev,
and they are very dedicated to the same line of mission,
like promoting Bitcoin, hyper-Bitcoinization, privacy.
But in their approach, they choose to hide their real identity
so that they could do their job better.
So I wonder what is your thought on these two approaches?
How do you see the pros and cons of both approaches?
And how can you make sure that for whatever the approach you take,
it's authentic, honest work that have...
That's a good question.
And I think, you know, again, there's multiple approaches.
Like Uncle Rockstar is going more and more private.
And I've seen people that do the same thing where not only do they have a pseudonym, but
they use a mask like they'll do podcasts, but they wear this mask with like all these
like little white dots on it that look like, you know, one of those things from Squid Games
or something.
And so you can't see even what their face looks like.
They're completely anonymous.
And I think, again, that kind of a process works well for people who maybe they have
a business that's outside of content creation.
Maybe they're not monetizing their content full time.
And so they are doing this more of like as a charity or as like a passion project of trying to promote Bitcoin and privacy.
And in that case, like doing that strategy is absolutely correct.
But for podcasts, especially, especially like relating to other people for trying to connect with people on YouTube, I think you just need to show your face.
You know, I think people will connect with another human being more.
People connect with me more on Twitter when I even share my mistakes.
I want to say, hey, guys, I've tweeted this out.
I didn't read the financials hard enough and I missed this little thing.
I made a mistake. I'm human. I'm sorry. And when I say that and I admit my own mistakes,
I get a lot of positive feedback. Like, good. I'm glad you said that because it shows that I'm human.
Of course I make mistakes. You know, that's just part of life. And when you're trying to be a
contact code, you're trying to connect with that humanity, your humanity and everyone else.
So I'm trying to show that's why I showed my face initially. Like at first I was just completely
just audio only podcasts. But as soon as I got invited to, you know, like Cedric Youngleman's
podcast or Danny Prince, like I realize they are going to put this on YouTube.
It's going to be weird if it's just a bull icon next to his face talking.
He's like talking into a void.
So I'm like, I need to show my face.
Yeah.
Do you, did you have like a light bulb moment?
Because from wanting to do something to making the decision and to actually doing it, there's,
there's, it's a journey, right?
And it's not a linear journey sometimes.
and sometimes you can sit in a spot for months and weeks
and not knowing if or how you should proceed.
So do you remember like a finish line
that got your mindset flipped
and saying that, okay, I have to do it now?
Yeah, so when I was at the conference on Wednesday,
I was in the backstage area
and I watched Ian Carroll and Dr. Robert Malone
who did like the COVID vaccine
and like he talked about like the problems with mRNA vaccines
and like all these dangers back in 2020.
And so he went viral for that.
They gave a really good talk.
And then afterwards, I went with Ian Carroll.
If you know, do you know who that is?
He's a conspiracy theory guy on YouTube.
And I went with him and we went back to the Airbnb
and we're playing poker with him
and all of his entourage, his security guys.
And I was asking Ian, because I was like,
again, I was worried.
I was like, so many people have said this,
but I don't know.
And he's someone I trust.
And so I was like, is this a good idea?
He's like, only good things happened to me after I went public with my name.
Because he had the same thing.
He was canceled his clothing company.
And then he switched to Ian Carroll.
And he's like, by being authentic, he's like, I'm trying to expose the truth.
How can I tell people about the truth if I'm not being truthful about who I am?
And he's like, and, you know, let the universe handle what happens.
Like, if someone really wants to target, if the bad people really want to target me, they would find me anyways.
And I know that too.
Like, on Twitter, like, yes, the normal person doesn't know who I am.
But if the CIA or like some really bad billionaire, like doesn't like me, wants to find my real name, they're going to find me like they're definitely going to find me.
It's not that hard. They can probably just reverse image search my face on Google and then they'll find like Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever.
It's not hard. And so it was more of just like a public persona thing.
But once he said that, I was like, OK, wow, I don't have an excuse anymore.
I realize that the only thing holding me back now is just a little bit of fear about what's going to happen.
But I was like, I just have to jump in with both feet.
It's still a little, I mean, still fresh, right?
I did this, I did it June 1st, right?
We're speaking in mid-June and June 14th.
And, you know, that tweet went a little viral, got like 220,000 views.
And yeah, I got a lot of feedback on it, but it was like 95% positive.
So I was even surprised.
I thought it'd be more negativity, but it was mostly positive.
A handful of people said, screw you.
I don't want to follow you anymore.
And I'm like, you know what?
Fine, like free.
It's nice that you have to get the feedback after you choose to do it because you really always come down to the leap of faith almost for anything because we can't really truly be ready for everything, for anything.
So you always come down to the leap of faith.
And this is a good demonstration of you being honest about it and you really thought it through.
And regardless of the consequences, I will do it because I'm being true to myself.
I think that's ultimately the most important thing.
Either you're in the Bitcoin space or not, it seems like.
And everybody filters the world through their own lens.
And now that we've talked about your latest big move, let's dive down back a little bit to see how you became you, basically.
Do you remember any distinctive characteristics or elements that shaped your key understanding of the world today, either from an emotional perspective or geographically or experience wise?
Sure.
I mean, I have a really interesting backstory because I have a crazy like family and upbringing.
So my my parent, I was born really late in my parents' life.
My mom was 42 when I was born.
My dad was like 46.
And right now my parents are both in their 70s.
And at the time, my mom didn't think she could even have kids.
And my dad had had a vasectomy.
So they weren't ready to have kids at all.
And so I was born and my next oldest brother was older than me.
So I was the baby by like a long, long shot.
So I was almost like an only child, even though I had brothers.
Because when I was growing up, like as a little kid, obviously like my brothers at 24, 25,
they have a six-year-old little brother.
It's like they don't want to hang out with him.
You know, by 24, 25, you're out of college, you have a professional job.
It's just that the age gap was too big.
So I barely hung out with them.
But I guess the upside of that was I spent so much time with my parents.
And my dad has a PhD in atmospheric science.
And my mom has like two master's degrees and she works in a college.
So they're very educated.
And so they just had me reading books.
They had me learning.
They had me like debating them in like, you know, about philosophy, religion, politics,
all the time at the dinner table.
So I was raised in this really weird space where I was just, you know, forced to learn and to read and to like educate myself and take an educational responsibility upon myself.
So not just rely on the school, but I was like, I'm going to go read books about whatever the subject is I'm interested in and I want to learn about it.
And so, you know, that combined with living the Pacific Northwest, it's cold and rainy all the time.
There's not many like people are also antisocial, right?
Especially Seattle.
I had times when I'm at a, you know, event, I go up and talk to people and they're just like,
say five words and then walk off. And you already open the door for somebody and they just kind of
scowl at you, angry. And you're like, wow, like relax, dude. And so this kind of cold atmosphere,
even though I, as a kid, I kind of didn't like like the environment up here in the Pacific
Northwest, it forced me to like be more focused on myself and be more focused on what my passions
were. And that was really good because it, it led me down this path of economics, finance,
and eventually Bitcoin.
Interesting.
Wow.
I didn't know about the older brother thing.
Because me being a single child,
like I have no...
No context.
No context of having siblings whatsoever
being at your age or not at your age.
Like it's a categorical absence for me.
So Graham,
what does success look like for you?
Because your parents are very educated,
well-educated,
and your brothers,
like your siblings are way older.
How, like, were you growing up, were you under certain expectations?
What did success look for you back then?
And has it changed now?
Sure.
So, well, for me personally, I just was doing what my parents wanted me to do, right?
Which was get really good grades in school.
And because I was a really good reader and I was pretty smart, school was like a joke
to me.
It was so easy.
Because again, remember, my parents are way older than most parents, right?
And also at the time, they've already had three kids and they're just tired from work and school and whatever else they're doing.
So they would just leave me to my own devices all the time.
But they didn't have any technology in the house because our house, I describe our house as like frozen in the 90s.
Like we still have a VHS tape at the house.
We still have a Nintendo SNES.
We still have like a game, like original Game Boy from like 1992.
Really old stuff.
And so as a kid, my parents wouldn't, they gave me no access to the Internet.
even in like 2010, 2011, like I was like 13, 14.
I'd like basically, I would go to the library
to get on the computer
or I'd have to ask my parents to use their computer
and they'd give me like 30 minutes.
So like, you can use the computer for 30 minutes.
And I'm like, so I was forced to read
and I was forced to just learn constantly.
And so that was just the focus of it.
And that, again, that kind of pushed me into this
like super deep reading, super deep knowledge,
wanting to learn more about the world.
And my own curiosity too fostered that right I was really a curious person I was like wondering why the world is the way it is you know I think there part of both but I really think especially like your innate personality characteristics I hate to say it but I think it an innate feature I think it
born with you. And I don't know if it has to do with your genetics or your brain makeup that's
like genetically predetermined by your birth. But, you know, I've met people who like they,
for example, you put them in like the most distracting environment and you have like,
give them like 10 siblings,
but they're super interested in art
and they just do art no matter what.
Even though they have all these reasons not to,
cause all these distractions and all these people
pushing them to do other things,
they'll do what they want, right?
And then on the opposite side too, right?
You have someone who's given the best environment
and then they still become a drug addict
or they still become that.
And so I hate to be deterministic, but like,
and my parents were so, they were always telling me like,
we were the ones who made you read.
We're the ones who made you do this.
I'm like, not really.
Cause like I could have just gone,
if I was a different personality kid,
I would have gone outside and thrown rocks at trees all day.
You know what I mean? Like I could have done other stuff than read.
Like there's still there's the world around me.
I could have gone and hung out more with other people, but I was introverted.
I just naturally was so curious.
I wanted to read. I wanted to research. I wanted to learn.
It's not like as a kid, you will do whatever your parents tell you to do, right?
Like your parents can tell you to read, but you're like secretly doing other things
and we're not really care about what you're reading.
Do you recall being being a sad kid?
Because because I'm saying this from a from a girl's perspective,
like big winners having kids starting family and we see this debate of like if you're gonna have
kids like start sooner so that you grow with grow up with your kids so you your parents had you
fairly late in their life so did you how was your childhood different because of that
besides that you you you feel like have shaped you into who you are well a lot of yes a lot of
things. For one, when I was like three and a half years old, my brother had a schizophrenic break,
my next oldest brother. And so he was really brilliant. He was getting a degree in math at
the University of Washington, and he was like on the fast track to be working as like a mathematician
or statistician at one of the top tech companies. Could have made a lot of money, could have had a
great career, but the stress was too much for him and he had a schizophrenic break. And so he had this
kind of like emotional breakdown and had all these police officers come and arrest him.
And my family, like understandably, the entire vibe of the family shifted because everyone was
now worried about my brother. And so they're all trying to take care of him, figuring out what the
kind of medicine to get him, what's the diagnosis. And the psychiatrist kept changing the diagnosis
because first it's bipolar, then it's schizophrenic, then it's schizoaffective, then it's, you know,
multiple personality, like no one really knew what was wrong with him. And so the entire focus
was kind of on him. Born, you know, very late in my parents' life. And I have three older brothers.
And when I was three years old, one of my brothers had a schizophrenic break. And that made the whole
family focus on him because, again, he was like going through this crisis, this kind of like,
you know, constant having a break, being in a mental institution, and then being, getting better
and taking medicine and then stopping the medicine because of all the side effects,
then going back to it. And so the focus of the family really shifted to my brother.
And on the downside, that made me feel very lonely and felt make it feel like my parents didn't really care about me because, again, they were just constantly focused on my brother.
And I was kind of like the afterthought. So I'm like a little brother who's just running around, you know, doing stuff like five years old, seven years old.
And my other brother was like in the hospital or in a jail or, you know, he got trapped in South America in, you know, a prison because he was throwing rocks.
He was having a break and throwing rocks at windows and screaming at people.
That kind of isolation was negative in a lot of ways because it caused me to have a lot of internal pain.
But it was also positive because it forced me to, again, go internally.
So I was like, what do I need to do?
Who do I need to become?
what am I actually interested in?
Like, again, if my parents are kind of busy with this
and my brothers are busy with my other brother,
what can I do?
And I was like, I want to just do what I'm passionate about,
which is I want to read.
And I just want to learn.
I want to learn about the world.
And so I just kind of focused on that.
And so that throughout, you know, middle school and high school,
I just continued that path.
And even in college, I was reading, like, when I was a kid,
I was reading, like, 50 books a summer, like, insane amounts.
Again, for you guys to remember, I have no internet.
I have no cell phone.
I have nothing to do.
it's the Pacific Northwest and like I didn't have a car and my friends all live far away from school
so um yeah I just was reading like a ton I was reading for hours every day and that that habit
just stuck with me throughout high school and college and so I was still reading a ton and I
got to the point where I was you know arguing with university professors because I was like
disagreeing with them on economics and stuff and they were like shocked that I had read this book
or already read the textbook or whatever.
And that eventually allowed me to write my own book, obviously,
and get up on Twitter and become very proficient with using Twitter
because it's a text medium.
And I was so familiar with using text because I've been reading so dang much.
Wow, wow, impressive.
But then do you feel like you're a logical person or intuitive person?
I feel like I'm both.
So that's what makes me hard to figure out for people
because I have both characteristics.
Like I have an aesthetic eye.
And how do you balance the two?
Or then do you feel like on a daily basis when you're approaching your life, you're adapting a combination of both?
Or in situations, it's purely logic and in some situations, purely intuitive?
I feel like you need to use a combination of both in all situations.
Because again, there's things where you can, there's a logical answer.
And there's, but there's also like intuitive reasons to do or not to do things, right?
Like, for example, you know, the name change.
There's a lot of logical reasons why I should change the name.
But like intuitively, I felt this resistance because I was like, first of all, I'm comfortable with Peruvian Bull.
Everyone else is comfortable with Peruvian Bull.
I've posted under for so many years.
And all these people from Reddit and from Twitter know me as Peruvian Bull, right?
But I also knew I'm like, I shouldn't be doing things.
I had the intuition like I shouldn't be doing things based on comfort and based on familiarity.
Like I can't, that's not my path in life
is just be comfortable and be familiar with myself.
I have to be pushing the boundaries
because that's how I grew to a large Twitter account
in the first place.
That's how I grew on YouTube in the first place.
And so I got a book published
is because I was willing to do something
that was out of the norm.
And that means doing something
that's not familiar to you, right?
And so that's part of the adventure of life.
And so I realized like I can't be complacent, I guess.
And so my intuition told me
that even though it was the uncomfortable move
and my emotions didn't want to do that, I had to do it.
And so with almost every situation, I use that where if I'm in a business meeting with somebody or if I'm on a podcast, I'm at the same time evaluating their logic, but I'm also trying to see if I can get an intuitive feel for who they are.
And some people you can really like once your intuition gets good, which I've been working on getting better, like you can feel when people are authentic or inauthentic.
You can feel when they just want to use you for your money or your clout or I'm sure you've had the same thing.
People want to come on your podcast just because you have a podcast and because you have a platform.
They now try to kiss up to you like all those things happen.
Yeah.
So my question there then is, do you have moments or situations where your logic and intuition tell you different things?
And what happens when they tell you different things?
Do you eventually go with logic or go with your gut?
Wow, that's such a hard question.
Man, Vivian, you're really giving me the sauce here.
Yeah.
Well, I would say so in most situations, they're pretty aligned.
In most situations, like there's a logical reason and then there's also intuitive reason.
And I can feel like this is the right thing to do.
So like, OK, for example, like when I came up with my series, the macro series, the dollar end game, I was trying to when I was first writing this thing on Reddit, I was like, what do I name it?
And I was thinking, you know, the macro cycle or the fourth turning.
I'm like, no, that's someone else's already book.
I'm like, hmm.
I'm like, you know, the end game.
I'm like, but that's just like Avengers because Avengers had recently come out and I was thinking about Avengers.
And I really liked a lot of the quotes in that movie.
And that movie, I think, is a very memeable movie, right?
There's a lot of really great moments.
And so I was thinking about it.
I'm like, hmm, hmm, what can I say?
And then the thought popped in my head, Dollar Endgame, because it's the endgame of the U.S. dollar.
I'm like, that's the part.
It's short.
It's punchy.
It's really engaging.
Someone reads Dollar Endgame, they're like, oh, that's scary.
That's interesting.
I want to read it.
And it was like the intuition and logic both made sense because that name for the book made the most sense.
But there are times – I would say so like 85% of the time, 90% of the time, they both work together where intuitively and logically both are in coherence.
They both want to move in the same direction.
There are times when there's the opposite.
There's intuition moving one way.
There's logic moving the other way.
And I've had that happen where I've had people reach out to me, for example, for business opportunities where they say, hey, look, I'm starting this, you know, starting an exchange and I would love your support.
I would love to do a promotional deal with you.
Here's all the business reasons why I'll make a lot of sense.
It'll be a lot of money.
And it's like, wow, that seems like a really good business idea.
Logically, I could make a lot of money.
I'd get connected with all these guys in Hong Kong who are professional equity traders and I'd be promoting their crypto exchange.
but then intuitively I'm like exchanges have blown up so much exchanges have so many people
have lost money and even though the risk is very low and they keep telling me about how they have
regulators and how they've double checked the code and no one's going to get rug pulled it's
not going to be an ftx right totally bro but my intuition's like that one percent chance that it
could go wrong and I inadvertently fuck people over I don't want to screw anyone over it's
especially with my like audience I don't want to make them invest in something and then have it go
to zero and so i'm like i can't do it and so in those situations i usually actually trust my
intuition or my logic a good answer at the right i would say is my answer you asked me
then despite of the change it seems like a lot of like different stages in your life and
you're embracing your new identity yeah in the bitcoin space do you have you noticed something
that despite of the changes have stayed true and stayed core to you for who you are sure so
So despite the changes, I'm still the same person doing macro research, financial research.
You know, I'm still interested in Bitcoin.
I'm still interested in sharing the message and really combining because, again, my goal is I want to combine the two aspects of aesthetic creative storytelling along with hardcore macro analysis.
Because, again, the problem is there's not really anybody who bridges that gap.
You have people like Lynn Alden, Luke Roman, who are very intelligent and very smart.
The problem is a lot of people, they talk over their head.
So a lot of people don't understand what those people are saying because it's so technical.
And if you want to understand Lynn Alden, you have to read all these posts and you have to listen to all these podcasts.
It's just like a lot of work.
And then you have on the other end of the stream, you have people on YouTube who know literally nothing about finance or economics.
And then they make videos about it.
And when you watch the videos, you can clearly tell they don't know what they're talking about.
You know, you have like someone like Jake Tran or someone who goes on and has like a really well edited, well put together, aesthetically beautiful video with a great fast edit and cool text.
But then it's just like he doesn't even know what inflation is.
Like he doesn't know the proper definition.
I'm like, dude, how did you do this whole episode and not even research that?
Wow, you're right.
Because you just made me realize something is that for someone like Lynn Alden's content, very dense and very informative.
And there's so much information and nuggets like literally on every page, but takes a lot of prerequisites and takes a lot of knowledge to and dedication and background information.
I guess context to dab that line of thinking versus a random YouTube channel.
if they make the video nice and easy,
then it means they focused on a lot of their effort
into making the video nice to look at
for people's short attention span.
Like they're dumbing down the actual content
so that for people who get content fumbling out then,
then they're getting more and more informed.
And for people are getting just random bits on YouTube,
maybe they get less and less informed because they're fed misinformation or information that
are dumped out so much. I lost the nuances. It doesn't represent the truth anymore. So that's
actually presents a huge risk. And I've sat at your talk before and I'm, I would say that I'm
a zero technical person. Like I wouldn't be a technical person at all in Bitcoin. And I usually
find that these technical conversations really unbearable, personally speaking. However, I really
loved your session and I caught myself being engaged the entire time and then I was following
through the ideas without getting lost in the actual macro analysis. So really well done over
there. And the question here is that for you to come up with all of these great content and to
bridge the gap between the general audience and then the nuances of the macro analysis,
Just what is the, over the years, have you identified an ideal environment that you can best, that you can be at your optimal?
Either that's your like physical environment or mental environment.
What is that environment that you can really thrive?
So you mean like an actual place or like online or both?
Well, just environment in general, it could be physical environment, people around you or your mental space, like state of mind.
In general?
Sure.
So I spent some time traveling right after I started doing this full time.
And I went to Colombia and lived there for a few months or actually quite a few months, nine months.
And then I went to visit El Salvador.
And then I came back to Seattle in July of 2024.
And, you know, I love traveling.
I had a great experience.
I met a lot of amazing people.
And there's a lot of Bitcoiners actually in Colombia and a lot of entrepreneurs and people doing amazing things.
The issue that I ran into, obviously, is that like the environment there and the environment in most of the countries doesn't really foster hard work, persistence, you know, these kinds of virtues that I want to foster.
And living in the Pacific Northwest around my friends, around other business people and entrepreneurs, it's a much better environment.
And so I found that living in Seattle is actually, you know, much less distracting than living in other cities.
Because ironically, the upside and downside is that there's not much going on.
There's not much to do.
there's no really good bar scene. There's no really good clubs. There's no really good concerts.
You know, there's some cool outdoor stuff to do. And I do do the outdoor stuff, but it's only nice
to do for like three months out of the year. So you don't get distracted all the time. And the
benefit of that is I can really focus on what I do. And so I found that living in Seattle is
really the place where I can thrive. And I get also the best ideas just naturally living in
Seattle and meeting up with other people who talk finance and macro in that area. But online,
right it's twitter is really the big one but also i found that youtube is a great place to go as well
because again what i was telling you earlier is there's this gap in the market right now which
i've identified and not many people can fill it because the problem is people want it like
intuitive smart aesthetically pleasing content about economics but there's no one that actually
understands the macro who can make it and so i'm one of the few people that's in a position where
I'm small enough that I can actually do it, right?
Because Lynn Alden and Luke Roman,
these people have multi-million dollar businesses
doing financial, like they have a financial newsletter business
or they have a fund or multiple funds
and they're in their late 30s or 40s, right?
They already have everything established.
They've had multiple decades of work behind them.
I don't, I'm young.
So I don't, the upside and downside
is that I'm in a unique spot to fill this gap in the market,
is to do this cool storytelling,
but also understanding the macro and being smart about it
I'm not just having like ADIQ slop out there, you know?
To die, to die?
Yeah, I'm ready to go hard.
And really the goal is for the YouTube to just blow up
and really tell people the truth
about what's happening with the macro economy.
Like what's actually happening underneath the surface.
And then Redfield people on Bitcoin,
like tell people like,
look, these are all the problems with this system.
You need to be buying Bitcoin.
You need to be investing in this asset.
And I guess you're among the lucky ones that can be like choosing your environment and finding what works best for you and actually execute on that.
For people who either don't know yet what their ideal environment would be either like because some people work best in solitude.
Some people work best when they have a team of people, they can bounce off ideas.
And some people want to have like more conversations.
Some people want more action.
So for those people who don't know or they can't really go to their ideal environment to be optimal, what would you just suggest them to stay focused and keep the clarity and focus?
It's hard, right?
And I had a difficult time focusing when I was living in Colombia.
We lived in a couple of different cities, you know, Medellin and also Santa Marta.
it's just it's you're putting roadblocks in your own way when you're living in an environment that's
not conducive to what you want to do right and again it's all about goals like what bothers me
won't bother you and what bothers other someone else won't bother you know a third person because
those people all have different goals in life the guy who wants to be a surfer on the beach and just
relax and chill I totally respect that life and if you want to go live on the beach and hang out
and surf and just like forget about the world and all these problems all this craziness on twitter
Totally go do that and be happy.
I'm not happy doing that.
I'm pretty ambitious.
I want to learn more.
I want to share more.
And I want to publish this to the world.
And so for me, I need that focus.
And so for someone who's in an environment where they can't, you know, they have roadblocks to it, the best thing to do, I'd say, is to isolate yourself as much as possible, as bad as that sounds.
Like you have to, if there's all these distractions around you, you know, let's say you're living in Vegas or you're living in L.A.
And there's just mansion parties or there's yacht parties or there's surfing.
And you could like instead of doing your work on whatever your startup is or your idea or your YouTube or your podcast, you could just be out surfing all day.
Well, then you need to stay inside.
You need to isolate yourself.
And if you have people that are distracting you, you need to kind of stay away from them.
And it's hard.
It's a hard pill to swallow because these people can be nice people and you can actually like getting along with them.
But one of the key parts in developing as a person is knowing when to deny yourself pleasure and knowing when to accept pain.
And that's never easy, right?
Because, like, I could – if I wanted to, I could go live in Latin America right now, and I could live like a king.
I could have steaks every night, you know, have a girlfriend.
That would be amazing.
But it wouldn't – it would be distracting.
I wouldn't – I could go surf.
I could live in Peru, like, literally for infinity time, even with my current income, obviously, because it's so cheap there.
I could go surfing every day.
I could eat steak.
I would be living like a king, but it's not, it won't be conducive to what I want to do.
So I know it's not a good idea.
I could go gamble in Vegas every day.
Not a good idea.
So I have to, I have to deny myself that temporary dopamine hit.
And you know, it's the time preference thing.
I want to be invested for the long run.
Then if you have a low time preference and you want to invest in the long run, how do
you personally distinguish between signal and noise?
That's hard.
There's a lot of noise out there.
There's a lot of people saying a lot of crazy crap that just doesn't end up being true.
But there's a couple of things to look for.
When you're talking about like a content creator, like other creators that I follow or that I promote or that I'll do podcasts with, one thing I'll look for is integrity.
So do they actually admit when they mess up?
Do they actually say like, hey, I made a mistake?
And also curiosity, right?
Are they similar to me in the sense that they are constantly learning, growing, creating new theories, ideas?
is oh look, here's this issue with this Japanese bank,
let's write a financial report on them.
I would trust that guy who actually does the work
because that proof of work shows to me
that they're actually invested.
Because there are tons of people who will talk the talk.
There's tons of people who will say,
they'll sit there and claim that they know about macro
or claim that they read and research this stuff or Bitcoin.
And then you ask them oh nice what book have you read Oh I haven read any books Oh you listened to some podcasts No I don listen to podcasts And she like no so you don You have no integrity And so every piece of information almost every piece of information you get especially with this decentralized media world is coming from an individual
So what's even – it's hard to parse apart with an individual statement is true at times.
What's easier is to judge the character of the individual and to use that as a proxy.
So I use that.
So like if someone I really trust posts something, trust that they have done their research, that they know their stuff, and that I don't need to triple check because I tweet, you know, 100 times a day maybe.
Sometimes retweets, all this stuff.
Like I can't triple and quadruple check.
If it's a big claim, though, I will check.
So if it's just like a small thing like Jeff Booth said hi to me at the conference and I retweet it and then it's like someone says actually he didn't say hi to that guy at the conference, you dummy.
It's like, okay, it's a small claim, dude.
You know, I'm sorry it's wrong. But if it's something big like, you know, Israel just launched a war in Iran, I'm going to double check.
You know, I'm not going to tweet something without actually seeing that it that is actually happening.
So then I go online. I see all these videos. There's all this. There's all this like evidence research.
OK, the Israeli Defense Force tweeted publicly that they're worried about nuclear bombs in Iran or whatever.
OK, this is legit. So that's how you tell the truth from fiction.
And the signal is really, you know, high quality truth is basically what it is.
How about in your personal life?
Because people, when it comes to your work, I guess,
especially if you're in the line of like macro analysis and economy,
and there's, it's a fact-based world, right?
And then you have like evidence, you have theories,
and it's almost like a science of its own.
But in the real life, it's a lot more complicated
when it comes to like personal relationships with our family and friends
and people just in our lives in general.
How do you tell people if what people are telling you, would you be considered as a signal from a personal development approach?
Like when do you know to listen to someone to better yourself and when to not, to stick to your own message?
That's hard. That's hard.
Really, one of my key heuristics, rules of thumb is if this person has been in a similar situation, right?
And if they have similar goals, because again, I meet people, I mean, okay, so I'll give you the
example of when I was working at Carta, I used to work at this fintech company as an analyst.
I was making really good money. I was getting equity, had healthcare, I have everything set up,
right? And I have further offers after I was finishing there for three years to work at,
you know, investment funds, asset managers for like $150,000 a year. And the people I talked to
who are other employees, they all tell me, cause I'm like, I'm talking about this idea. I'm like,
guys, my Twitter at the time was growing, 15, 20,000 followers. And I'm like, man,
my Twitter is really growing. I'm really feeling passionate about this. I want to take this leap.
And they're like, no, just play it safe. Be an employee. Be like us. Just get a W2.
Live the normal life. And I'm like, no. I feel this internal conflict with that.
But also I just look at them and I'm like, you're not living a life I want to live.
And so since they're not doing the path and they haven't done what I want to do,
I kind of started to discard their opinions. I started to lean on other people like my brother,
Alberto. He has his own real estate company in Seattle. So he's an entrepreneur. And he told me,
he's like, no, no, no. He's like, you do need to quit your job. He's like, there is no other time
you're at the time I was 25. You have no other chance to do this. He's like, if you wait till
you're 35 and you're married and you have kids, he's like, well, will you be able to quit your
job and do a financing on Twitter? No way. So he's like, you have to do it now. And so,
So, yeah, I judge it based on that.
If the person has been through something similar, if the person has real life experience, that's really the key.
Okay, that's a really good rule of thumb, for sure.
Your work is deeply rooted into the macroeconomic and you're trying to bridge the gap to communicate these things to a more general public.
For me, one of the motivations to start this podcast is to stick at it, is that the world right now is very depressing.
And there's a lot of, you have war and you have just debt of people are struggling and as Bitcoiners and especially you have read through a lot of the nuances of what is actually like.
How do you see the broken system or recurring human flaws deeply, but avoid cynicism at the same time?
Yeah.
That's so one of the things that actually was kind of also depressing, but also encouraging
for me was as a kid was reading history.
So when you when you're sitting in a current macro environment or current financial environment,
you see all these wars, all this inflation, right, all this horrible things happening.
You think the life is so bad.
It's never been worse, right?
We've never been through anything that's this horrific.
And once you read history, you quickly find out that that's not the case, right?
We've been through extremely hard environments.
There's people that have been, you know, given the shorthand in life, you could say, to a much greater degree than we have even right now.
So our complaints are valid, but relatively, it's not as bad as it has been.
And, you know, one of the really eye-opening moments for me was when I was reading this book about the ghosts.
It's called The Ghost of Cannae, and it's about the Roman legions that fought against Hannibal in the Second Punic War.
and these so there's this massive battle in august in northern italy it's like 95 degrees they're all
wearing you know 50 pounds of metal and the romans get absolutely obliterated they get surrounded
all these young men get killed there's like blood all over the ground and about like 10 000 of this
like 80 000 force escapes through this little hole in the enemy lines so they escape they go back to
and they tell the romes we got surrounded we got destroyed hannibal knew our location before we got
there. He had superior tactics. You know, the Carthaginians won. And the Senate is so mad at
these veterans who just, again, these are 20-year-old men, 20-year-old boys or 18-year-old
boys who just saw all their friends die. They're so mad that they banish all of them, strip them
of their soldiery. They strip them of their citizenship, and they put them on an island
in a work camp. For like 15 to 20 years, these guys are on the island. And so they just saw all
their friends die. They have to leave their wife or their kids or their friends or whoever else
is at home in Rome and they have to go live on Sicily.
And so when I read that book, I was like,
hmm, like, do I really have a lot to complain about?
I didn't just see all my friends die
and then have to go work in a work camp for 20 years
on an island.
That's not that bad.
So the way I stop from blackpilling is
those people have been through such difficult situations
and they were able to come out on the other side.
The resilience of the human spirit is almost unlimited.
And what we're going through right now
is just merely like an echo of what's happened before.
So humans are extremely resilient.
And even if there is like, and Bitcoin, for example, is a great example, like a white pill.
You can get blackpilled on macro.
You can get blackpilled on our current debt levels and inflation and war and all these
horrible things happening, which is valid.
It's really depressing.
It's really sad.
But Bitcoin offers the way out.
Bitcoin offers a solution.
And even in an environment where we have like, let's say there's a hyperinflation in the
US or Canada or across the world, or there's a monetary collapse or economic collapse,
you can switch to Bitcoin.
You can switch to lightning.
These services are being generated.
They're being created. And to think that humans won't find a way to survive after we've survived ice ages, wars, cataclysms, pandemics, we'll find a way. There's always a way. And so.
love your love your optimism in this and you're you're totally right like history will give people
so much perspective i follow this channel on youtube and it's basically like a storytelling
youtube and and mimicking the life of of history so so it will walk through you like this is the
life that you will live as a nun in 14th century in italy like they would go through these like
glancy sun experiment and really show you how their day look like the other day i watched a
video of like surviving medieval winter and then it's like you're just a random person and no money
like just a citizen random place in europe and this is medieval and you don't have this is how
much money you have and this is the lifestyle you could afford in that time and it's shit like you
You know, like it's really bad.
You barely have walls and there's no, you barely have a roof.
And it's like made of plants.
And if it starts to rain, then your whole place starts to soak.
And it's like, we don't even talk about, here we're not even talking about pandemic.
We're not talking about war.
We're talking about nature, just winter that you see every year.
And it's a lot.
So you're right.
Like we're as postmodern individuals, I guess.
And the modern science have provided so much convenience and so much remedies, I guess, to help us.
And it is going to be a new perspective knowing how people in history have survived or may or may not survive and put us in that shoes.
And then there's another thought is that now we see a lot of cynicism, sometimes in Bitcoin as well.
And people are like, and we see Ardicus and we see people that blame everything of fiat.
Say that Bitcoin fixes everything.
And I don't think that's necessarily true.
I think it's wrong.
That's a bold statement.
I think it's wrong.
For the reason that I get into conversations with Bitcoiners sometimes and they were like,
Bitcoin will fix this and war is this and this policy, this government and this is all bad for us.
And if these are fixed, then we as individuals can, the life we're living can be this or that.
Yes.
However, what role are you playing in your own life to live the best life for yourself?
Right?
Because it's not just, the life is not just about money.
You have to have your own relationship with food, have your relationship with your family,
with your spouse, with your kids, and with every single aspect of your life.
either you have other people involved or not and your relationship with bitcoin and with money is
just one piece of that puzzle and to get into the bitcoin standard it's the the starting it's it's
the first piece of the entire puzzle and sometimes i see bitcoiners mistaken that first piece of the
puzzle as the entire the whole thing right i hope i'm wrong in this and i hope bitcoiners in the in
the progression of adapting bitcoin will naturally fix or naturally optimize a relationship in their
lives either that's with people or lifestyle in general but i i do feel like there will be quite
some bitcoiners that will struggle and especially when they're financially free because now they're
like okay i don't have to worry about any i have to worry about money anymore and now what and that's
when the real puzzle is gonna start to display itself so i'm interested in learning how people
can navigate and i'm hoping and i'm hoping that life with bitcoin will be the lifesaver when
bitcoiners are there so i'm making timeless content because it's live stories we don't talk
about news and um it's it's genuine live stories you you can learn from other bitcoiners basically
what you were just saying they've done it so now you can learn from yeah yeah it's it's one of
those things where there's the Bitcoin idealists and then there's the Bitcoin realists. And,
you know, I love Safedine, but I was reading his book back in 2021. I remember seeing
this one part where he talked about how we wouldn't have a bad boss under Bitcoin. He's like,
bad bosses who hire people that are not fit for the role or who are mean to you or whatever. He's
like, because we're going to be operating under a better monetary system and a better financial
system and a better capital and allocate, you know, capital allocation and economic
system, there's going to be more incentives to not hire bad people.
But his statement of there's going to be no bad bosses, I just read that and I just laughed
out loud because I was like, are you kidding me?
There's no bad bosses, really?
People aren't going to be rude to each other under a Bitcoin standard.
There's not going to be jerks.
Like, are you kidding me?
Of course there's going to be jerks.
There's going to be gambling under a Bitcoin standard.
There's going to be drug addicts under a Bitcoin standard.
There's going to be people doing all sorts of, there probably will still be wars, just
a lot less.
But the people who really don't like each other, who want to wage war, they're going
to find a way to wage it, right?
They're going to find a way to do it.
So this like hyper-idealistic worldview where all the world's problems are solved, which
a lot of these problems are internal emotional problems, right?
These are people who have anger or hate or fear or whatever issue, or they're using like,
you know, let's say alcohol as a crutch for their...
emotional issues. That won't be solved by Bitcoin. That'll be solved by other things that they can do,
other methods, right? Some therapy, some psychedelic, something. But Bitcoin itself,
the money itself won't fix it. And what you said earlier was exactly right. Fixing the money is
just one piece of the puzzle. It won't fix people fundamentally. And it'll actually, in many ways,
getting wealthy will amplify people's traits. So I've met Bitcoiners who are, they get rich,
They got lucky. They bought Bitcoin in 2011 and now they're like multimillionaires. And then they're just rude to you and they're kind of entitled because they didn't actually – they got – like in some sense, yes, they did the work and they did the investment great.
But they also did get lucky, right? Because if you think about it, like if you're born in 2000, you were way too young to understand Bitcoin in 2011.
If you were born in 1990 or 1980, especially 1980s to maybe early 90s, you were old enough to really start to get Bitcoin.
You were right at the right age.
So it just was based on when you were born, which you have no control over.
And so you did get lucky in that sense because I own more Bitcoin than I have an intern, Alex.
I have more Bitcoin than him.
Why?
Because I was born five years, six years earlier.
So I was older.
I was already in the workforce.
So I was already making 80K a year when he was still in high school.
So it's just these things are natural to human societies.
And so, yeah, inequality like drinking, alcoholism, drug addictions, like, you know, abusive bosses, that will still happen.
I mean, you can argue that it'll be less, but it'll still happen.
It's a little bit of a wishful thinking to hope that one thing or one person will solve all of your life's problems.
even even bitcoin is true and especially i guess especially bitcoin that's also true and now that
you've gone through this whole journey in the past i guess even 10 years of being out and about and
experiencing life now that you're stepping into fully uh yourself and being public with who you
are in real life what are you aiming to build both internally and externally right now so what i'm
to build in terms of content creation or personally or both? Both. So I'd say professionally, again,
I see this gap where there's a lot of good storytellers and there's a lot of good macro
analysts, but there's nobody who does both. There's nobody who can aesthetically have a video or a
sub stack piece that will tell the story for what I would call like a finance tourist or an economics
tourist, right? Somebody who's like interested. So you're like my target audience, right? You're
somebody who's really smart, who's really educated, but like you don't have the desire to read 30
finance books, which good, most people shouldn't. Like, trust me, most of them are boring as hell
and you don't want to read them. So those kinds of people just need the core concise message in
20 minutes. Why is Japan having a currency crisis? Or why is the banking system straining? Or why is
the Fed cutting rates? I would just want to know. Give me a 15, 20 minute overview, 30 minute
overview. I want some depth. I want some intelligent takes on it, but I also want it to be quick and
concise. And so that's what I want to do professionally. I want to fill that gap and I
want the YouTube, the Substack, the Twitter, all that to be geared around that. Personally, I'm
looking to obviously grow the business and be able to hire people and continue to do what I do.
I've been looking to a lot of alternative health practices like biohacking because I have
some personal health problems with my gut, with my stomach specifically, and all the doctors and
all the traditional medicine hasn't really worked. It doesn't really do anything. Taking
antacids doesn't work. Taking all this, you know, PPIs and all these other like, you know,
constant medicines that you can do to eliminate acid in your gut or stomach doesn't solve the
fundamental problem. And so I started looking into alternative methods. So I got posted about
on Twitter. I started doing red light therapy. I started doing stretching and like sauna or
something like that before bed, ice baths, like those kinds of things. And that's been really fun
and interesting to do because that's a whole nother rabbit hole for sure i've been uh i think
it's been almost two months i've been doing tai chi every morning really that's cool um every
morning for like a month and a half now if i have like 12 minutes to spare in the morning and
sometimes i don't like maybe six out of seven days i can do that and it's been really nice
like right now i can i only need less than six hours of sleep i would wake up naturally after
six hours of sleep regardless of how what time i go to really yes and you wake up breasted yes
wow so i went to bed like 11 30 11 10 30 yesterday and then i woke up at 3 11 wow and i was like
not tired and i was like no i'm not getting up at 3 a.m so i like just went back tried to go back
to sleep but it was not like you're sleeping it's like you just have your eyes closed and you're
resting and then time would still go fairly fast but i still get up like six right so it's it's a
interesting rabbit hole to go on to observe how like if you adapt certain supplements adapt
certain lifestyle certain diet and if you kind of stick to it for a while it's interesting to see
how it your body reacts to it it's funny because i've always been a chubby kid growing up really
Yes, I've always been a chubby kid.
So this is why like a lot of people find this like cheeky side of me.
That's from like being a chubby kid.
You kind of have to be a little bit cheeky if you're like chubby.
It's funny.
You got to develop a sense of humor.
Yeah, yeah.
You kind of have to play that role.
Especially I lived in China growing up.
And even today, like I go home and I still sometimes wear extra large.
Like me wearing extra large in China.
So there's like sizing is like very, very different.
So I grew up as this chubby kid and this past year I've lost a bunch of weight and it's a new thing.
Like coming out of the new diet and coming out of me paying more attention, taking care of myself, aligning with like the mind, body and heart and try to prioritize peace.
So there's this whole journey that started from Bitcoin perhaps like with me living the life with Bitcoin, but has nothing to do with Bitcoin really.
And that has made really big impact on the quality of my life and my productivity level and the type of work that I could be doing in Bitcoin space.
And so it's been really nice.
And I'm glad that you're on the same rabbit hole of better ourselves in the physical sense to optimize our performance.
Absolutely.
What diet?
I'm curious because I did carnivore.
I started going to carnivore in September 2023.
I've been doing it ever since.
What diet did you do to lose all that weight?
I tried carnivore for like a month when it started gaining traction among the big queen community.
It was during COVID in 2020.
I briefly tried keto for months when I first got interested into any sort of diet.
But it was really painful to drink liquid fat like every day.
Drinking liquid fat?
Yeah, you would make like bulletproof coffee and MCT oil.
And it was all like you put coconut oil in your coffee.
It's really gross.
It was really gross.
I didn't like it, so I dropped it.
I briefly tried carnivore, but it was too dense.
And as a girl, you're supposed to eat some carbs.
Otherwise, your body starts to react differently.
Like for guys, it's different.
So I guess my way is just I try to do intimate fasting every day So back then I would only eat two meals a day I skinned breakfast and then my first meal would be like two and then dinner And then that was it And now I
sometimes I eat once a day, once, one big meal and a snack. Like right now, one big meal and a snack.
And then I don't eat until later in the day. Because once I eat, I start to get drowsy.
I lose the focus and I'm very focused in the morning.
So I'm like work, work, work.
And when I'm like almost done, then I can eat.
Because after that, I'll be like, oh, but still working, but just way less, way less
focus.
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing with, you know, our metabolism is that we're actually designed
for work when you're not eating and then you're designed for rest after you eat.
Because again, you think about evolutionarily, right?
like let's say you're living in 10,000 BC and you're just you know you're you're on a hunt
right you're with all these people you see a deer and you chase the deer and the deer is running
over a ridge and you have to run and find out where it is and find out how to trap it and you
finally trap it in a little canyon and then you have a bone error and you kill the deer and then
once you kill the deer and you make a fire and you gut it and you start to eat it now it's time
to rest and relax and to recover from this eight hour hunt you just did so it's natural that like
you're more productive when you're hungry and you're not eating. And then it's natural that
once you eat, you become drowsy and tired. Regular exercise is a big thing, I guess. And then
sleep, going to bed, like being a morning person is a game changer, I would say. Because I wasn't
used to be a morning person. I've never been a morning person ever. And then my current job,
because I'm in West Coast and everybody's in the East Coast. So I have to, so my meeting would start
early and now I coordinate with Asia so it's like at least if I get up earlier they don't have to
get back to me after the midnight so it's so this job has made me a morning person which I'm like
super appreciative because this played a big role of allowing your body to reset at proper time and
all the toxins to go out when you're sleeping because your organs like they work in different
times and then you're supposed to like be in bed and asleep at midnight for this organ
to work properly.
I think that served a role in this whole like weight loss thing.
It's not like I was trying to lose weight actively.
I was just trying to be more intentional with myself.
Yeah.
It works.
Exactly.
Your body is like a machine and if you're throwing it out of sync, if you're throwing
it out of coherence with what it's naturally supposed to do, like going to sleep at a certain
time, you get all out of whack.
So you get either hunger spikes or hunger crashes where you just don't feel hungry at all, or you get extremely hungry, like very common for people, and then they gain more weight.
So like sleep deprivation is paired with weight gain in most cases.
Totally.
Well, now that you're on this journey of perfecting your work and perfecting yourself, obviously it's a never-ending journey.
And as Bitcoiners, we all, I guess, to a certain degree, care about legacy.
When you think about legacy, does it feel important to you?
Or you're more focused on presence and the process that's being built right now?
That's a hard question.
I think, you know, the North Star, the guiding principle is obviously like what kind of legacy?
What kind of mark do I want to leave behind?
What do I want to show the world that I did?
Right.
What's my accomplishment?
That's like the long term, like, you know, I have a telescope and I'm looking at, you know, 50 miles down the road and I'm trying to see like where I want to go eventually.
But the day-to-day, you have to be focused on the process.
Like people will say like, oh, if you have a guiding principle, if you have a purpose, it will illuminate you every day.
The problem is you won't feel motivated by that purpose every day to the same level, right?
Motivation is fleeting.
Exactly.
So like if I only wrote when I felt motivated, then I would write once every two months and then that'd be it.
But it's about the daily habits.
It's the process.
It's realizing that we're all part of this game of life and this is everything we're doing is a journey.
you know so you want to start let's say you want to start your own podcast you want to start your
own business or you want to you know start your own art collection and paint for people you know
senior paintings in here they're they're absolutely gorgeous the first painting the first showing you
do might not have that many people and then you have to do another showing right and you have to
continue like what i what i found is like the first year i posted on twitter i got no views
no engagement nobody cared I posted for a whole year every single day basically and by the end of
the year I had like a few thousand followers that was it and it took me the whole year to go from
like 50 to like 2000 and I was really disheartened but I was like you know what I'm passionate about
this I still had a job obviously I'm like I'm just going to keep working on it and then really like
the end of starting to towards the end of 2022 and then into 2023 is when things started to
finally take off for me I started to gain 5,000 10,000 20,000 subs and then followers and then
that starts to blow up.
But it's really the process.
Like you have to fall in love with the journey.
We're here for the experience of life.
None of us are gonna take,
you know, I'm not taking any of this with me, right?
I'm gonna die at some point.
And all my followers, all the haters who don't like me
and think I'm stupid are gonna die.
And all the people who like what I put are gonna die.
All the money I make,
I'm not gonna be able to take it with me.
So all this is temporary.
And so I know that what I need to focus on
is just the journey.
It's the game.
It's the process.
This is a trip.
and I want to figure out what's my trip going to look like?
What's my path up the mountain going to look like?
What kind of experiences am I going to have?
What kind of people are I going to meet?
Can I meet some really cool Bitcoiners
and maybe help a Bitcoin company in some way
or start a Bitcoin company?
Maybe.
Maybe I can get this YouTube channel off the ground
and have it blow up and then go speak at a conference
about the problems with the macro environment
and how everyone needs to buy Bitcoin
and some people buy Bitcoin
and save their financial future because of me.
That would be amazing, right?
There's different paths that can go down, but it's all about the process.
It's about like the day-to-day habits that you do to keep up with your long-term goals.
So ironically, a lot of it is what we said earlier, which is intuition.
A lot of it is intuition.
I just get a gut feeling.
And so when I have like, you know, for the example of podcasts, I have these people talk
to me about podcasts and I've had, you know, I've had people, for example, so I have this
intern, Alex, right?
And he helps me do this macro research and write.
and he's run into people who do podcasts or do content
and they've been rude to him in person.
And then when they figure out that he works with me,
then they're kind to him.
Then they switch up because Alex has like 500 followers,
three, I don't know, very low.
And then I have 120,000.
And someone's like, you work with Peruvian Bull?
Oh my gosh, like, let me get,
can you grab him on my podcast?
Can you ask him to retweet my stuff?
Can you have him, you know, send me a DM?
And it's like, dude, that guy is fake, right?
And so that intuition, that realizing which people are really good to bring along on the journey and which people aren't is what I use to discern which opportunity to pursue.
Also, my morality, right?
I want to keep – it's hard because it would be – I would be a lot richer right now if I had less morals, you know?
Because as a finance creator, you get opportunities all the time.
And so I've had crypto companies, like I said, earlier exchanges.
We'll pay you $5,000.
We'll pay you $10,000 for an endorsement.
We want to give you all this money.
Please help us.
Please do this.
Please shill our coin to your audience.
And I have to say, no, I'm not doing that.
I don't care how much money it is.
My integrity is worth more.
So it's my morality and my intuition in both of those combined.
I've actually found a really good filter for judging which opportunities to pursue.
Do you distinguish between authenticity and integrity?
Yes.
In what sense?
Being authentic doesn't mean being good.
It just means being who you are.
So I can be a serial killer and murdering someone is authentic to who I am.
It doesn't mean I'm a good person, right?
But it's a good question because I think if you're authentic about who you are, and as
obviously, as long as you're a good person doing things forthrightly, you are acting
with integrity, right?
And so I pair those together.
Especially now when I'm public, I'm unapologetically me.
This is just who I am.
I really like to research macro.
I really like finance.
I've also read up a little bit about conspiracy theories.
I think there's some really interesting conspiracies that are probably true.
The JFK one is a great one.
You know, I've gotten flack online for talking about conspiracies just like tangentially.
But I'm also I'm not one of the people who goes so deep that is like I believe the earth is flat or I believe that all the birds are robots or whatever.
Like there's people who go that far.
And so I will authentically tell you what I believe.
And there are people macro who think if you even question anything about any official narrative, you're a crazy kook conspiracy theorist.
And I say, you know what?
That's fine.
You can have that opinion.
But I'm being authentically me.
I'm sharing my opinions.
And so this is who I am.
So if you don't like it, then you can unfollow me.
Right, right.
And totally.
It goes back to, well, it seems like an overarching theme of this conversation.
We really have to be radically honest with ourselves and know that whatever we're doing and saying is really ours.
Then if we can be authentic and make peace with that and know that's true to us, at least, then regardless what other people say, right?
They have their own life to worry about.
And we are only ultimately first responsible for our own lives, to be responsible for ourselves.
And now I'll touch on what you were saying about process.
I totally agree.
Experiencing, I've been experiencing this myself as a creative.
So I'm a new musician and now I'm like writing songs and making music.
And in the past, when I first get into this process is very,
had to really rely on the burst of energy, burst of inspiration.
Inspiration, yeah, creativity.
For creativity.
In a period of time, I would perhaps have like one week and flash out a song and that's it.
And then sometimes I would go by months of not writing anything down.
And then I was thinking, okay, if I want to take this more seriously,
what is the difference between a hobby and a craft?
Is that for a craftsman, they show up ring or shy.
A carpenter is not going to not go to the office just because they don't have inspirations
or it's raining outside or whatever reason, right?
Like you have to show up to do it regardless and to show up enough until when you sit down,
something starts to come up.
Then that's a craftsman.
And if you are just relying on the burst of energy and burst of inspiration and God knows
when it's going to come, then you're going to remain a hobbyist.
And there's only certain places you can go as a hobbyist that you wouldn't be able to
reach the level of a professional or reach the level of your expectation or where you
want to go, right?
the proof of work goes hand in hand with the patients and just showing up, building that
process. Yeah, it does. And it's again, it's this it's this battle between who you are and who you
want to be. So I'm in a perpetual state of thinking like, is this is doing this like X activity,
whatever it is like I used to I still have a chess addiction. I love playing chess. It's so much fun.
And like as someone who is like really analytical, chess is like the most addicting game because
winning is a huge dopamine burst and I gain points and then losing. I'm like, how did I not see that
move? And then I'm, you know, it's, it can be distracting, right? I think in 2023, I was like
the top 3%, uh, most active players on chess.com. So I was like, I was playing a lot and it was way
too much. And I realized, especially that year, I'm like, if I want to take this journey seriously,
I need to give up, you know, certain things in my life, even if they're pleasurable,
right and so or they're fun or they're they're seemingly good for me because they give me a
dopamine hit um so that that battle has always been within me and and you know i see what you're
talking about all the time you go to work especially with creative work you don't feel the
the creative urge you don't feel you're like i don't know what to write about or in your case i
don't know what to i don't know what the music i should i don't know how to start the song where
do i even start and in those days you just have to go through the motions you just have to do
the process as the process is laid out. And so what I'll do in those days, again, is like,
I'll go to the office. I'll just be like, okay, let me just start reading other people's work.
Let me see what everyone else is writing. I'll do some reading. I'll do some research. I'll figure
out like, what are some major themes coming up? I'll listen to some podcasts and I'll walk around
the park. I'll go do other activities while I'm thinking about what's the next piece for my
sub stack or what's the next good tweet to put out or Twitter thread. And then usually within a day
or two, the inspiration will strike.
But it's better than just laying in bed and doing nothing.
That's the thing.
You just have to keep showing up.
And I remember like years ago, I remember reading something and it really left a mark
in my mind.
It was saying for someone, if you want to build a habit of going to the gym, then the
best way to do it is for the first week.
Like if you're trying to go every day, the first week you just go and don't exercise
at all.
You just show up and leave.
You just stay there for five minutes.
Because for most people, the hardest part is to get to the gym.
And I totally feel that.
Like for me, the worst part of going to the gym is actually going and coming back.
So they were like, so the first week you just show up.
You don't even work out there.
Just get into the mindset of going there.
And then it will become easier when you're actually doing it.
Because the hardest part is over.
So I was really remembering that and gave me major insight.
And now that you're on the path of serving your purpose, optimizing your life, giving up things in your life to be that person, do you think purpose is something that we are born with, that we each person has a purpose that we're supposed to serve or it's something that we create as we live?
That's a hard question.
You know, I would be inclined to say it's the first.
like it's it's hard to say because the purpose especially when it comes from a very deep place
to me and my this is my intuition and you know maybe i'm wrong it feels like like my passions
it feels like they were almost like given to me and not that i chose them right because macro
finance like doing content creation in this game is very hard very slow like i'm very i'm a very
young person for this and so you know i'm still in my 20s and most people doing professional macro
stuff for 40 something, right? And they have a hedge fund or they have an investment fund or they
have 30 years of experience at a bank. And I don't have any of that. And so if I had to go and choose
a passion, I would have just chosen programming and made 120 or 150K a year for my first job
and just bought Bitcoin and been rich, right? That would be great. But I couldn't choose my
passion. I tried getting into programming. I tried getting into computers and all that stuff. And
although I could understand it, I just didn't care about it. I'm like, I don't care about code. I
don't care about sitting here and writing lines on a computer for like 10 hours. That doesn't
interest me. And so I had to go the opposite way. And so it felt to me intuitively that the purpose
and the passion was like granted to me. And whether this is from a genetic thing of this
comes super deep, you know, like maybe just genetically or imprinted, like this is what
you're going to be interested in. Or maybe if it's like a spiritual thing, like maybe my soul
was always destined to be interested in wanting to do this kind of thing.
Whatever it is, I think it was just, it was predetermined at birth.
And it's almost like that's what I always wanted to do.
And like I said earlier, it's almost like if you had dropped me in whatever environment
it would be, I wouldn't be happy unless I was doing something similar to what I'm doing
now.
So if I was born in the 50s, like, you know, yeah, like in a nunnery with like all these
nuns, I would probably be like, yo, I want to go learn, you know, how to be a monk.
Or I want to go learn how to be the advisor to the king and help him strategize on war
and economics and how to set up the kingdom.
And people would have been like, no, you can't do that.
You're not a royal birth.
I'd be like, I don't care.
I'll read all the books.
I'll do all the, I'll do it at the school or whatever you need to do.
I want to go help the king strategize.
Or I want to be a prince or, you know, I want to do something cool.
I couldn't accept a normal life.
It comes from a very deep place that's either, again, genetic or maybe even like a soul thing,
honestly, like a spiritual thing. For those of whom I think it takes time and it's not as obvious
to people sometimes. It takes a path finding process. And for those people who are still
looking for their purpose or looking for, I guess, courage or strength to fulfill that,
to take the leap of faith, what would you say to them? So I would say there's a couple of things.
First, you know, if you're hesitating, if you're waiting, you need to start to think of not only
because most people focus on the negatives of taking the leap.
If you think like, yeah, I'm going to start a podcast
and I want to do life with Bitcoin
and I might get flack for it.
People might not like it.
People might say that it's negative.
Or for me, I start a Twitter account
and people might say I'm stupid for this take
or I'm wrong about this thing or wrong about that.
You have to be willing to acknowledge
like not only obviously there's negatives to starting something,
there's also negatives to not starting it.
So there's a huge downside.
Again, if you want to stay in your current job
and you have this passion
and you want to go be a musician, be an artist, be a creator, and you don't do it, you're going
to start to resent yourself. You're going to start to feel internal anguish. You're going to start to
feel internal anger. And that internal anger over years can metastasize and grow like a cancer
and destroy people. And I've seen it happen. I've seen people where, you know, you'll go to
beer with them and they'll just say, man, I could have started a company and I didn't. And, ah,
I'm stuck in this nine to five.
I have a wife and kids.
I can't change.
Or, you know, I married the wrong person.
I wish I hadn't done, you know, I want to change.
And I'm like, then you need to make the change.
I'm sorry, but it's uncomfortable.
But the price of staying where you are is very high to pay.
Yeah, the price that you're paying today to change is the lowest price you will ever pay to get out of the situation already.
So you either accept the lowest cost and start doing it or you never leave or you're paying way higher cost down the line somewhere, right?
But it takes a certain personality.
It takes certain security as well.
Like if you're so insecure as a person, then maybe it's harder.
But it takes a combination of things to understand these things and as well as executing on them consistently to this point.
So I certainly have a lot of appreciation and respect for your own journey and who you've become along this line.
So let's end the conversation with a positive note of yourself.
Looking back in the years, what is the saying or what are some of the things that you're most proud of yourself for pulling off?
Not like professionally or just like personally?
Sure. So there's a couple.
but I would say the biggest pride, you know, I guess thing that I'm proud of or thing that,
you know, I rebirthed myself or had a huge change was from about 2021 to 2022, I had really bad
insomnia and I was going to all these different doctors trying to figure out what was wrong with
me. And I didn't realize, you know, I told you about my childhood that a lot of it was rooted
in what had happened to me during my childhood. My brother being schizophrenic, being, you know,
going over the deep end, being very volatile emotionally and mentally. My whole family
to deal with that. And my dad also suffers from severe depression. And so having both those
mentally ill people in my family in close proximity to me had done more damage than I knew.
And so I started having this insomnia and I was at the time working full time at Carta,
at this fintech. And I was also obviously, you know, working on the Twitter. I was just tweeting
all the time. I started to write my book, started to write these, you know, Twitter threads,
I started to blow up on Twitter.
And by, you know, mid 2022, I was at a breaking point and I was sleeping two hours a night
consistently.
And basically, like I was feeling I was in pain every day because when you don't sleep
at all, you have headaches, you have vision problems.
I was having stomach and gut pain all the time and I was barely able to eat.
I just sometimes even like force myself to eat because my appetite went to zero and it
was a really rough time.
but I realized, you know, this is the time where I either, I stay complacent, I stay,
you know, I just accept that this is my life because the doctors all said, we can put you
on SSRIs and we can put you on all these medicines to help with insomnia. You can still work your
job and you can have benefits and you can work there forever and you can just pay us income
forever and you'll be on your medication forever. And I was like, I can either do that path or I can
decide, I'm going to do something radically different. I'm going to try to heal this insomnia
to change this. But then on the same note, I'm going to try to do something that's more authentic
to me. And so I started this path of self-discovery of personal growth and healing. And I did neurofeedback.
I did therapy for a little bit, but didn't really do much for me. And then I did psilocybin in March
of 2023. And after I did psilocybin, I had a very, very spiritual experience, very personal experience.
I was able to let go of a lot of, you know, anger and pain.
And my sleep started improving almost immediately.
And I also realized, I was like, I know what my true purpose is now.
I need to actually do this Twitter thing.
I need to be, I need to take it for real.
I need to actually take it seriously.
And so, yeah, over the course of 2023, my sleep got better and better and better.
And by August, I was like healthy enough and I was like feeling good enough.
I'm like, I can quit my job and lose my health benefits.
I don't care.
I don't need it anymore.
And so I kind of went through that. I had to let my old self die in that psilocybin experience to kind of move forward. You know, I had to be like this old self that's angry, that's even fearful of what will change and fearful of what will happen. I have to realize that change is inevitable, that this is just a natural part of life.
this new adventure of starting this, you know, online persona and starting the YouTube and
starting the book and everything is part of where I'm meant to go. And so I need to
be able to be comfortable with that. So I had to let that old self die and, you know,
start stepping into this new me. Wow. I'm so happy to hear that you can
sleep well now. It's such an important thing. There's a lot of stories like this. And I love
I love talking to Bitcoiners about how they've changed over the years
because every postmodern individual is traumatized I feel like Regardless of your age and in your upbringing either that from your family or from just the society in general we very wounded There a lot of calling for healing as a society
And that starts from us individually to really be honest with our experience, our trauma and recognize that we are hurt.
We're hurting because sometimes I talk to a friend, talk to friends and I'm like, yeah, you're in the process of healing.
and then they would say something, it's really mad.
And they would say something like,
oh, but I don't feel like I'm hurting.
I'm like, you don't know that you're hurting.
You don't feel it.
It doesn't mean that you're not.
You don't know that you're hurting.
And it's about knowing that you're hurting
and understand what's really hurting you.
Oftentimes it's not what hurts us.
It's what we make out of it.
And then sometimes we stuck in the mentality in the past.
It's like as a five-year-old boy,
then it may feel, oh, I'm neglected because my parents are taking care of my brother.
But now at like 30 years old, perhaps you're like, okay, now I have a perspective of, you know,
like they're their parents, they're doing their best.
And this is the situation.
And this is the time and resources that you did have at the time.
And they didn't do this on purpose.
It's not their fault.
And it's not my fault.
So there's a lot of forgiveness to not only to whoever who hurt us, but also to ourselves.
for holding on to it, to really let go.
Once we start wanting to live a more honest life with ourselves,
then the changes start to trickle and the changes are unconstitutional.
And I'm so glad that you've been through this process
and really thrived out of it and made something out of your own,
became your own person, and now you're becoming public
to share with other people that this can be done This can be done You done it But the point is not for other people to copy it to replicate the process It for people to do it for themselves with their method
That makes sense to them.
Exactly.
You touched on a couple of things there that I want to parrot
because, you know, we so often,
we're living a life of habits, right?
And those habits not only are conscious, they're unconscious, right?
You might have, you know, beliefs.
You might have ideas about yourself, about your upbringing, about your world that you don't even realize you have that are subconsciously affecting you.
And so for me, it was stress and anger.
I was stressed out about my childhood and I was angry about what had happened.
And those two emotions were negatively impacting my health that I didn't realize.
And once I went through that process of taking psilocybin and then later on, I took ayahuasca and I made a thread about it, actually, that like did really well, got a lot of positive feedback.
Of course, some people think, you know, oh, you're crazy for doing psychedelics.
You're now insane.
I can't trust you.
I'm like, you know what?
Fine.
If you don't trust me for going through this healing journey of trying to fix the insomnia,
then that's fine.
But until you've been through two years of two hours of sleep a night, I don't think
you can understand what I went through.
And I don't think you understand how desperate I was to fix it and to find out what really
happened.
And the truth I found was, you know, there's a really good Carl Jung quote that says, you
until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you'll call it fate.
And so what I realized with this process was that so much of my anxiety, fear, anger was just unconscious emotion that I didn't deal with.
Exactly.
It was my own interpretation of the situation, not even the situation.
It was my interpretation of it.
And so once I went through those processes and I also did journaling and I did somatic therapy, working out, all those things, I was able to let all of it go.
And then I was like, wow, I feel so much better.
I can sleep so much better now.
I didn even know that you could sleep that well It like incredible Whoa Especially the last few months my sleep has continued to improve And I like dang like I didn know I could go to sleep and wake up this rested It been so many years since I even felt that It takes you facing
the dark parts of yourself, the shadow self for you to come through on the other side. And so I
think, you know, everyone has this opportunity and whether you do it through, you know, therapy or
whether you do it through writing or whether you do it through a psychedelic experience or prayer
or whatever it is, do what works for you.
Work on yourself because you're the greatest project
that you're going to work on, right?
And no one else is going to work on you.
You know, that's the other thing
is your parents might love you.
Your friends might love you.
Everyone might really care about you,
but no one can really do the work for you
and no one can really help you
in the same way that you can help yourself.
It's a very rewarding process for sure.
And it's perhaps one of the hardest ones to perfect.
Thank you so much for sharing.
This is a powerful story.
And I hope with this conversation,
there's more courage and strength floating in the air
for whatever you're trying to do in your life
for whatever optimization that you're trying to implement
but are missing this little push.
This is your push to do it right now.
Start now.
Thank you so much for joining me today
at this in-person episode of Live with Bitcoin.
And I hope Live with Bitcoin will continue to be a lifeline
for people who are seeking the alignment
between body, mind, and heart.
the Bitcoin story. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. And we all need to live in,
you know, coherence with who we are. And so hopefully this podcast and your other podcasts
that you've done on this channel will encourage people to do that. You know, if you have that
dream, take that leap. We don't have as much time as we think we do. And so it's time to take the
leap, time to change, time to grow. Amazing. It's time to grow. It's a perfect note to add on.
And thank you very much for tuning in to another episode of Live with Bitcoin. My name is Vivian.
We'll see you in the next episode.
Thanks, Will Bremer.
Thank you.