wearing their traumas as a jewelry while really it's a puzzle piece that was like it's there for
you to use it and transform into something yeah and this is why love is to cure
okay and kiss me and kill and the rockstar dev you asked yourself that question so you have to answer that
Welcome to Live with Bitcoin, where we dial into the human side of Bitcoin by focusing
on Bitcoiners' personal transformations and life stories.
I'm your host, BTC Ved. Thanks for tuning in.
Today, we're having a very special episode in Hong Kong, recording a live episode with
a legendary guest.
In Bitcoin, we often say, you don't change Bitcoin, Bitcoin changes you.
But Bitcoin doesn't just run on nodes or codes, it runs on people.
People who shape its future, protect its values, and inspire others to live differently because
of it.
Ankur Rockstar Dev is one of those rare figures.
He is a relentless advocate for free and open source software and a champion for the global
Bitcoin community.
But his influence goes beyond code.
Rockstar is also a philosopher whose ideas on freedom, privacy, and resilience have shaped
the thinking of countless Bitcoiners worldwide, including myself. For many, his words have been
just as transformative as the tool he has built. It's an honor for me to sit down to have a
conversation today with someone who embodies the builder, philosopher, and the guardian of Bitcoin.
Please join me to welcome Anko Rockstar Dev. Thank you for joining me, Rockstar.
Thank you for having me, Vivian. I really appreciate today as an opportunity to
do a deep dive into these topics that we both are very fond of and
hopefully we get somewhere for ourselves and for the big winners who are
Like or not like us. Thank you for willing to share and these I will ask some hard questions
And I appreciate you extend your thoughts on these matters
Yeah, well, hopefully I have the answers and
Thank you for
being
person that helps me you know formalize my thinking go deeper in some topics and not only
for me but for a lot of other people in bitcoin i know some of those watching i've been watching for
long what you've been doing some of them were guests in your shows and it's really amazing
to see the impact that you're having.
So yeah, it's great for me as well to be part of this
and looking forward to seeing where this conversation takes us.
Today we'll be talking about the life with Bitcoin.
And as you know, on Live with Bitcoin podcast,
we talk about personal stories, the human side of Bitcoin
when it comes to personal transformations on the Bitcoin standard.
And looking at you, I think you were probably one of these figures
that in bitcoin that have an epic journey on that front. Let's talk about the days before bitcoin
because most people know you as uncle rockstar dev. It's a complex identity and especially you're
not public in the space in the sense that you don't show your faces, you don't show your face
and most people know you in the bitcoin context. Who were you before bitcoin? Who was I before
Bitcoin and then it's also who am I now outside of Bitcoin because Bitcoin is
definitely something that has shaped me very much and as you say okay yeah you
had a split piece of like your faces I feel like I yeah I do have actually
multiple faces we all do we'll do yeah but for me it's it's that
understanding that God gave you one face and I have multiple faces in a in a way where you know
I wear a white mask it's a one face and then you saw the second day of the conference it's a black
mask and I'm kind of selfishly preserving my face for my private life so that when I take off the
mask when i take off sunglasses hat it's obvious signal that i'm outside of bitcoin and i should be
left alone uh by bitcoin and everything that it is within the bitcoin and i think a lot of people
do that uh in different ways it's not that structured so a lot of people understand that
separation of private life versus business life so you know once five o'clock hits you're no longer
you know a business person you're no longer slaving for the company you are like it's now
your free time so you're a different person do not call me though hopefully hopefully you're not
in that situation because it's it's terrible to to have that kind of a big switch uncle rockstar
of. How was that identity born? Like why Uncle Rock started that?
Yeah so I'm getting to that from the perspective also like who was I before it started to take
over because I was just I would say a regular nerd, programmer, someone that's very much interested
in cypherpunk philosophy someone that was interested in mailing lists and someone that
from early age I really deeply cared about privacy but I thought I was a crazy insane paranoid until
I stumbled upon cypherpunk writings and then I was like okay I'm not the only one so so yeah I
I very early on latched onto Bitcoin, especially because I grew up in what you would call third world country and suffered through hyperinflation as very young.
So when Bitcoin happened, it was immediately, the value proposition was immediately obvious to me.
What was it like to live in a hyperinflation environment?
well you know how people want to be billionaires and i've been a billionaire it's not fun
yeah it's not what you think it is it's you you get these bills and then you need to
spend them before they're worthless before government prints a new batch
and all this is happening
as a part of
a big civil
war and
I even looking back
I was lucky at least
the country I was
living in
Serbia was spared of
the worst part of civil
war most of the war was happening
in Bosnia and Croatia
so
I also look at my
kids that were my age back then like if it was almost if you're 100 kilometers this way
that defines your destiny way more than who you are uh what you can give to this world it's just
you're labeled in a certain way and that means you should be you know with this side and if this
side comes you're you're dead literally so so again like growing up with that it's a lot to
come to terms with plus you as a young adult you know how rebellious young people are like
world owes you something and in this case it's like well it does owe me you know better childhood
less conflict why do i need to see these people dying these people being upset about me these
people labeling me as evil and you know my family my uh people that i know so a lot to come to terms
with which actually bitcoin gave me because again i struggled in 2000s to come to terms
with why it had to happen to me.
But then when Bitcoin started,
it was like, oh, well,
I actually really understand
why this thing has value
and how it can help protect individual freedom.
When did Bitcoin enter your life?
Well, again, as I was following
a Cypherpunk mailing list very early on,
but I thought governments will ban it.
You know, we all have those preconceived notions
before we get into Bitcoin.
You know, some people have Bitcoin is for criminals.
Bitcoin, you know, is backed by nothing
or governments will ban Bitcoin.
And Parker Lewis, shout out to him,
wrote a great series of gradually then suddenly
where each title of the entry in the series,
a bunch of them, is like common myth.
And I was a victim of misconception
that governments will ban Bitcoin.
It wasn't really until 2012, 13, 14, 14 really,
was when I saw that politicians are buying Bitcoin,
members of US Congress they have Bitcoin I was like well now it's going to ride their greed
and we're safe we're safe and then that's a good point that's a good point sometimes you have to
tap into other people's greed to protect Bitcoiners integrity almost you see what's happening now is
it's really funny when
people look at
Trump
family buying Bitcoin and they're like
well now Trump will control Bitcoin
well it's really Bitcoin
controlling Trump's
Trump and his family
so
they are now invested into the system
and they're going to defend the system
so
obviously they're going
to try to co-opt system
they they're confused they wouldn't be getting in unless they were doing the calculations and
saying like well you know we're gonna take it this direction but that's really one of the
beauties of the system that bitcoin is like especially greedy people it tricks them
so well and you know then they think uh bitcoin will serve them while they really end up serving
bitcoin i say i was having a conversation with my friend and then all of a sudden there's a question
what is bitcoin and i and i remember myself reading that message and i had to think about it
I sat there for like a solid minute just staring at the message and what is Bitcoin?
I think Bitcoin is the thing that either makes you or ruins you.
We are the people, we are the person to decide if we let Bitcoin makes us or ruins us.
And this kind of goes back to what you're saying to the trap thing for greedy people,
for people who don't approach this with the right intention,
they will get burned.
And I do believe that the real challenge for Bitcoiners
will begin when Bitcoin moves.
Because money is an amplifier of good and evil.
And Bitcoin is as sound as money can get.
so the amplifying power of Bitcoin as money is phenomenal
and I worry for those Bitcoiners who have not worked on themselves
and I worry that when Bitcoin moons
like whatever that means
there's so many more people will be financially free
and for the very first time in their life
they will have the freedom to decide what to do with their time
and I bet many of us
will freak out
because we've been so conditioned
to fiat society
we have been so pushed
by arbitrary rules
arbitrary
limitations
like you said
you are 100 kilometers apart
and your life is different
this is stupid
well
it's a side effect really
the world shouldn't be like this
yeah but but still this is where a lot of people get confused with me um i actually will
love fiat system because it it was a good technology that got us here the same way that
gold was a good technology that got us to the point but that's the trickiness of life
if something can get you to the point and then you need to change you need to get closer to the truth
you need to align better with the truth like universal truth and then you can you can take
the further steps so when you had the question like what is bitcoin to me i i always answered
from well most of the time answered from the perspective of it is the best money humanity
has invented it's simply the the most perfect money and uh as you say money is a very interesting
tool and it's i always say financial freedom is foundation of all freedom yeah if i you know
take away all your money it is no but it's it's good that it's that way okay and the thing is
if i tell you oh vivian you're free but i take away all your money
you are you go well i'm free but i can't do anything like that yeah exactly so i will also
relate a lot with what you were saying is as you get that financial freedom and as you get
complete freedom what do you do with that freedom because ultimately that's the question yeah and
as someone that has been given that it is often like like a train that's been taken off the train
tracks and it's sitting you know in a field and it's free but it can't go anywhere you know
you need to choose your track and you know put yourself on some kind of a journey
and do something with it right do something with it yes and then when you do have a bunch of
financial freedom bunch of money suddenly you you get so many tracks so many options
so many people have ideas for you oh you should be going here you should be going there you should
you know you should invest in me even more distractions yeah and uh and then yeah you get
tricked uh you you get to live the best five days of your life you get to travel here you get and
And the thing with Bitcoin is it over time gives you so much that, as you say, like education and going towards some kind of personal enlightenment that keeps you centered is very important.
What is enlightenment for you?
well it's
it's really like
getting closer to the
ultimate truth
and then understanding that as a human
being you're so
imperfect that you will never
get
close like the ultimate
truth is
you know at the center
of this galaxy
so you as a human being
you
can get
closer to the truth but you will be so far away into the imperfection that there will always be
that component of humility of understanding that is like no matter how hard i try i will fail
but i uh you know i'm gonna make the effort because what else is there to do and
to me the funniest are the people that are like oh i am um a truthful person i care about the truth
because usually they're the biggest assholes they're the you know i know the truth that there
is only one truth and it's my truth oh surprise surprise because because you were mentioning in
the fireside chat on a big creation too you you want to go you want to approach perfection you
to push yourself towards that but how how i see it it's not about perfection or imperfection it's
about whole and not whole so it's of course like perfectionism myths yeah right and where what do
you what's the difference between perfection and originality and and ultimately which one do you
care about more? Neither. There's a perfection, originality, truth, fun. And if I would,
out of all of those, yeah, I guess I would put my journey towards the truth as number one. But still,
if I am going towards the truth and it's not fun it's like again why am I doing that
going back to what I said like I understand that I will never get close to the ultimate truth
so for me it's also a component of fun now do I do it now do I do it perfectly
no I don't care about it do I do it originally also don't care much about like I would love to
but if there is someone else you know with a mask and yeah i if i start caring too much a bit
about being original i would get into thinking too much about something doesn't matter i need
to focus more on whether i'm advancing towards the truth am i having fun and uh yeah i would set
up like that. Because one thing that I love in Bitcoin, you see that there are more masked
individuals, right? Yeah, because of you. A lot of it is because of you. So many people
were inspired by you But they will not admit it Some will Well yeah that a good thing I actually love that Bitcoin is creating us in a way to serve through these identities
Oh yeah, big time.
Because someone else can take Rockstar Mask, do the same outfit, and can take that place and can serve Bitcoin in a way that I serve.
It's a message. You're taking a stand and you're sending a message.
And by showing up like this, you're sending off a vibe as well.
And you're providing food for yourself where everybody sees you.
And that brings me to the question of what's the difference between a Bitcoin personality and a Bitcoin person?
because
Uncle Rockstar Dev
the mask
the suit
the chains
it could be
it could be part of the
ubiquity personality right
and then as you said
somebody else can take over the torch
and be that
and show up
even us
Uncle Rockstar Dev
with the costume
yes
how do you stay sane and authentic like what's the difference between a big queen personality
and a big queen person how do i stay insane and knowing that i can be replaced how how do you say
what it seems that you want to be replaced and you you're you're welcoming people to to to it's
not about replacing it's about starting a movement and you you have people joining because they see
what you're doing and then they they agree with it um and agree on the mission and then they agree
on the approach and then they do their part right so i don't think it's necessarily a replacement
is a movement it's more of a movement we need more people it can be more shallow than that i
one thing that i was always curious for people that watch my interviews is like why hasn't
still anyone shown up to a party and be like i'm rockstar you you would get into some amazing
parties so it can be as shallow as that but uh i don't know vivian i uh
i i like the component of
anyone being able to join the identity itself and not necessarily being me
because also in a way it then abstracts it from from the individual so so i is right individual
i don't know if that's maybe the distinction between persona and person and personality
person and persona but and that's also when i look at other names like kale like
those people is the great thing is if we get to the point where
you you can give a github account to someone else and they continue or there can be a group of people
behind the the github account that are for those that don't know like are coding and submitting
code that's what i would love to see in bitcoin core for example instead of so many contributors
now essentially building up their ego and their you know like identity under like first name last
name and doing a lot of things from the position of being threatened whether their grants will
continue whether their income will continue if they can build something that can be even given
away to other people you know satoshi is it one person or its group of people we don't know and
again i love this structure because i think it's important for us continuing our journey towards
the truth we need better systems and uh the fact also that bitcoin is digital brings up a lot of
questions like you've done something now you you know you you've gone public and said oh you know
when you look back at like 2010 there are people that are saying oh well i only have thousand
bitcoin and now imagine that's a person that had their first name last name tied to that state oh
good luck yeah that person and it's not only good luck to that person good luck to the surroundings
of that person good luck to the family of that person good luck to everyone in uh her his or her
life that he or she or they or them whatever we're getting pronouns care about because
you know i care about you so you will get abducted by crazy people who will then and
it's like it's not even you and it's happening so that's what i see and then once i start talking
about that people also get better understanding why i wear a mask is because people can see me
like oh he's been in bitcoin for so long like you vivian you've been in bitcoin for so long
you must have 100 bitcoin right no no she does
but i know i know what you're saying but what i'm what i'm hearing is that
i don't know if you know this but my my my pickup is that there's part of you that chose this
chose this path of having a mask and and hiding your your private identity in the bitcoin context
yes largely because of the cypherpunk philosophy largely because of your your advocacy on
privacy but i also think there's part of you that's yeah privacy is not a crime it's a really
good message but i think part of you came up with this identity this faceless identity or
the mask as a face identity so that you can give bitcoin without trauma
to myself yeah as well but here's the thing i i want to be clear on this
i haven't still figured it out because people when they see me they are projecting i am a mirror
and so they start going with okay this guy has it all figured out like he's making a statement
this guy is an anarchist
he wants to see the world burn
this guy is
so there are
I have had
people approach me with
craziest
preconceived notions
that go from the
perspective of like I have it all figured out
like no, no I don't
and also it's not something
that I have
I made a switch
I have figured this out
throughout the years
and I'm still figuring it out
you know
I'm now getting new suits
I'm getting a mask
getting different sunglasses
changing this
yeah
you know
some people are like
oh yeah
he's wearing Gucci glasses
so why is he doing that
like why isn't he giving
money to poor kids
that's tacky
or why is he wearing this chain why is it so i i just want to be clear that it's not like i don't
have all the answers i haven't figured it out i could start talking about individual things
and we can start unpacking it but again it's sometimes i question whether i should spend
a second on that because as soon as people come to you and with me they're like you're an anarchist
you wear this mask you're a bandit you want to see the world burn if i engage in that conversation
i'm giving those people power because all that is false like i'm not an energy to entertain that
right entertain that reality like that's something like i'm not anarchist i i love society in in a
weird way sure like i love the structure that society is and and i always go towards politicians
because this societal order that we have is in large part because those with psychotic tendencies
like that 2% of population that we have,
we found out that it's best to isolate them into political games.
And those psychopaths then, yeah, we organize these games for them called elections.
And then, you know, as a good sheep, we come and we choose the biggest psychopath
out of all of them so that that psychopath protects us from the other psychopaths.
do you think they're the psychopaths or we're the psychopaths
i i think they're the psychopaths but the system is making us into it's like playing to our
psychotic tendencies because there's a lot of guilt like did i vote for the right candidate
did i you know support good or evil and it's all false choices yeah because you're people
your vote doesn't matter at this point
it mattered
before we
got to this level
of complexity and craziness
now
going to
elections, casting your ballot
it's a waste
of your time
it's
you need
you want to impact society
in a good way
recording this podcast will have way more impact
for the society than you going and voting and for a lot of us bitcoiner is also
staying humble stacking sats is much better political stance than going and campaigning for
Kamala Harris because she's a morally better choice than Donald Trump is like no Trump is much
better wrecking ball to the current system than Kamala is what I'm really interested in is like
I don't want people to blame themselves and I don't want people to go red or blue
as uh walker likes to say i feel a bit going like both hate you so get out of the false choice and
focus on things that matter and and also do it in a way where it's productive so going back to
where we started with this like people i'm not an honor you know i don't want to society to burn
I want society to evolve and yeah that's what I'm doing and there's a flip side to it too it's like
you if you if you enter if you go votes you're entertaining false decisions right but if you
bitch about politics all day every day on twitter like you're also you're also feeding into that
system so it's not like you can it's not like oh you you agree with it and you're participating in
that's that's one form of participation but if you're spending your time and energy to say oh
this is wrong and you should do this policy changes and spending time to even to to reject that
that's participation too because you're giving your time and energy feeding into that system
instead of giving your time and energy feeding onto the bitcoin standard yeah and that's one of
the brutal things about the truth like everyone that's going towards the truth should understand
one thing and that that truth is terrible it's uh truth is truth no truth is is brutal it's it's
it's a state of perfection and once you reach that's true but once you reach that perfection
Vivian so boring yeah it's one state like anything you if you move an inch
in this direction you're going away from the truth as we go towards that perfection
that's where it gets more complex and that's where you have to avoid as you imagine it it's
it's a tree branch and then we gotta also let people go
to dead tree branches that's how i see people that focus on politics like in 100 years
who will remember who was the mayor of the it's you know pointless but it's not a real legacy
yeah it's not a real legacy but there are people who find inspiration in that type of legacy
like there are psychopaths that want to be you know control there for that they're not necessarily
they're not necessarily after the legacy like i'm sure there are politicians that are there
maybe many of them even that started off as good-hearted and want to do good want to leave
legacy but at the same time it's also about power and it's about power it's like oh you you
Because we're in this fiat society where you gain power in that system.
And if you're traumatized, if you're traumatized as a person and you're insecure about yourself and you think, oh, and then they overtake, they mistaken power of security.
And that's because of their trauma.
I was, yeah, I was just about to apologize to all of you politicians watching this when it's like, OK, not all of you are psychopaths.
But then when you end it, like, it's power.
It's, well, maybe they are all psychopaths.
But no, no, you're right.
You're right.
There are good people.
I focus too much on the worst of us.
There's things that used to serve us and protect us.
And then as we level up or as the circumstances go on,
you, that part that used to protect you need to change too.
You need to grow out of that.
and have new perspectives and this is the choice we're talking about right you need to gain
perspectives along the way and know to use your new perspectives and to heal yourself along the
way because otherwise otherwise you're acting from trauma you're you're and then and this is
what trauma is actually if you think about it like you you grow up tough childhood and you have to
survive it's a very pragmatic thing and in that process you didn't have a choice and you just
naturally pick it up to to code of conduct right basically to survive and it's a it's brutal and
you but this is how you survive for real and then over time and this is what you know and this is
what what you learn and i've watched i've read this book um called the mountain is you and it's
It's basically, it is a book of talking about self-sabotaging energy and how do you get rid of that.
So I think good, good book.
And one thing in that book kind of stuck with me is that people, human beings are not wired to go after happiness.
That we are not wired to pursue happiness.
We're wired to pursue comfort.
and for for people for humans familiarity is comfort and this is why you see people stay in
toxic relationships um stay in trauma stay in insecurity is not because they're enjoying it
they're suffering they really are but but because that's how they grow up maybe they were abused as
a kid and and whatever reason right and they're they're hurting and this is what they're used to
and this is what they this is where they draw the reference bar in the world so that it's familiar
they don't know better they don't know that there's something that's better that they could
work towards so they stay look at me i i i thought this interview was about me but it's about you
it's about everyone
hello traumatized people
it's about everyone
because everybody is so freaking traumatized
yeah yes but
but these people are also
yeah whiny bitches
100%
yeah listen
also young people
watching this
we maybe it's also
part of the programming
you're programmed to think
that your upbringing is special
and that you suffered in unique ways,
I'm telling you, Vivian,
when I immigrated into the U.S.
as someone that was bombed by U.S. and NATO,
like it's a country bombed in Europe by NATO.
Crazy.
I thought, Vivian,
that when I immigrated to U.S.,
I will be,
like everyone will cry when they hear my story and you know i will be the biggest well didn't
approach it that way but now i look back at it and i think i'll be at the top of the victim list
you know that's gonna give me special privileges but no like i come to u.s suddenly like everyone
is a bigger victim than me and and actually they they are i immigrating into u.s i was so afraid
that I know that these American young adults,
they're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars
for their degrees.
And I was like, how will I compete in a job market with them?
Because they must be going to this prestigious universities
that are better than mine, where I'm coming from.
And they will be so much smarter than me.
Little did I know I immigrated into U.S.
and they envy me with reason because like my education was better than theirs
i i haven't even paid for that education like they have student debt i i'm like i come like
oh i'm a victim they're like oh how much are you in debt for your studies i was like zero dollars
what are you talking about like what's good in debt so so then you see the reverse american
dream yeah american nightmare american nightmare it's like those kids they get out of college
they have like hundred thousand dollars to return like the system is rigged against them
and they are bigger bigger victims like okay i was bombed but no one that i really care about
they died in the bond.
I care about people. It's not to me. It's relative.
And no family
died. So I spent
that.
They, on the other hand, they're like slaves
to the system. So they are bigger
victims. So again,
young people. The thing
is any trauma that you seeing is just like you need it a it a torch it a pointer towards
how do you go and how do you give a meaning to what you've been through yeah so for me again
bitcoin came in and suddenly i was like well this gives a lot of meaning through to what
I have been through and then as someone that can code I can contribute to this system in a unique
way that others can but they don't want as like not many people want to become programmers and
developers it's just like they're not excited by a prospect of sitting in front of computer like 16
hours a day like i i am genuinely excited about the prospect of you know those matrices from the
spike from the those spikes from the matrix that they can like plug into head i would do that you
mean you would the matrix thing you would unplug it or you will plug it i would plug it you will
plug it i would plug it and use it to code uh for the good of others so it like as soon as there is
a way to stick a spike in your head and code i will do that because i understand that it's not
a choice many would make but i would make that choice because it would amplify my abilities
and i wanted as it amplifies like bitcoin is a worthy cause
plus I think I do have a good structure because I I would stick it in my head as a rockstar dev
but if I see that like I can't process everything that that ability brings
hopefully I have a choice to unstick it from my head and uh take off mask and then
step away from it.
It seems like there has been a lot of alignment
from your personal philosophy and Bitcoin
from the very beginning.
Yeah.
So has Bitcoin changed you in any way?
Yeah, it amplified me a lot.
And again, I think it goes,
right, continues the thread that we started.
It's all about the sure.
trauma problems but it's like as soon as you it clicks and you find a structure a system that
uses it as a puzzle piece you know suddenly it's it's no longer trauma it's experience
you know it's it's uh wisdom it's so a lot of people again get lost with that trauma puzzle
piece and it's always there and you don't know how to put it into a bigger puzzle yeah but for for me
i i really bitcoin has given me that and uh and it keeps giving that to me and also the fact that
i managed to stay afloat with the identity of people also like why do you take your identity
so seriously
leave your mask up
it's just like
I found it helps me a lot
once
I do like
take off mask
and
and move
to
private identity
it's like
so much
more rich
it's fulfilling
because it's
it's not this
I don't know if I'm
explaining that
good way
but
the thing is
I'm trying to say
that I really
encourage everyone
to find that is it those traumas or just puzzle pieces find something that integrates it in a good
way and yeah go from there there's a lot of people right and you get approached a lot and people
know you and they look up to you and they come to take pictures and have you had maybe some people
just came and really tried to like take off the mask yeah and be like cheeky about it and just
like has it ever happened i mean it seems it crossed your mind
because it because you know if they really want to and it sometimes it's chaotic right and you
have a lot of people around you i mean i guess it came to mind to a lot of people but i think
people understand it's like disrespectful yeah so but it definitely crossed your mind this and i
understand it because it's a curiosity it is but it's it's also a power play it's like by doing that
that's what we also do for each other in life is like you're helping other person take off the mask
so you get them closer to truth that we're not okay that's the best type of relationship you can
possibly get right like most people's no no most people's relationships are not not true
some people listen no people people it's common dynamic yeah but let's go back to what i said
the absolute truth is so far away that we will not reach it um you gotta understand also that
for some people, they have found their sweet spot.
So if you pull off their mask and you're like, well, this is you.
Suddenly they're like, no, no, no.
I don't want to be that.
I like who I am now.
Even mask.
Even if I'm living with a lie, maybe I know it's a lie,
but it's a lie that allows me to be true be be in my own truth right so
so for some people it's like oh you know your mask is a covid lie
so by but that's projection that's exactly what you said about being a mirror because they
they when they see you they don't see you and they see whatever so in their mind yeah they see the
mask and they think about COVID because they are thinking about COVID. I just see a mask. I don't
think about COVID. Like many people I believe don't. And you see what you want to see and you
see and by and by being faceless, wearing a mask and you can't see the actual face.
That's that's you're providing space for interpretation. And this is this is where
where people fill in the blank and when they don't have enough information they fill in the blank
with their own imagination and whatever is going on in their mind so when they this is the mirror
thing when they see you they don't see you they see themselves but they thought that they saw you
and then they project and then they react to you or behave in front of you with that
preconceived projection how do you feel about that it's the the identity thing allows you to be
true to be in your own truth but there's a side effect for other people right right but but how
are you handling the negative aspect because because you i bet so many times you were misunderstood
and so many times you were
disrespected
maybe even
because of the projection
what do you feel about that
that aspect of being a mirror
because on one hand you help people
yeah I now think about what you're saying
is that act
of pulling down my mask
would be so much about the person
more
more about the person than about me
yeah yeah yeah
So I guess that's also the part of disrespect that people get is if they think about it, they're like, well, I realize it would be more about me than this person.
On my end, I immediately, when you start talking about that, I think back on how much I have received from Bitcoin.
so
so I see it as
the things that happen
in that nature
it's more like
okay it's my
service to Bitcoin
and
sacrifice
would you put it that way
well
or just proof of work
proof of work is better
I agree
because for me as well
it's
I'm now in a timeline
in that branch of the tree where I could make all the wrong choices
till the rest of their life and I would be good.
I don't just have this identity.
I have my private identity.
You practice free throws so many times,
like basketball, throwing the ball into the hoop,
that if you're not like trying to miss, you will actually hit the shot.
Yeah.
So, and that's where, yeah, you're right.
It is like my own programming of good choices.
And I hope that as I'm, that's really all I'm doing right now.
You're born with certain talents.
And then again, you find a way to, your intelligence also can be very traumatizing.
So a lot of, that was the funniest thing when I joined Mensa.
like shout out to all you intelligent people in Mensa.
You join that club and you're so proud.
And you're like, you know, I'm going to hang out with other intelligent people.
They're so smart.
And then you find out like a lot of intelligent people are dumbasses
because there is a huge difference between intelligence and wisdom.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And there's an intelligent people can be extremely traumatized.
And this is when you have villains.
Yeah, because they live in their brain.
The intelligence is a measure of how fast your brain works.
So if you live in your brain and make it,
the more you think about yourself, the more miserable you'll be.
And especially if you have a high frequency CPU in your head
and you start going into those loops again.
Have you ever been in that phase where you're looping and you're lost in it?
I never began.
Never?
I'm like, so perfect.
See, this is where trauma of growing up in a civil war is in a weird way helpful because pain makes it real.
And you just can't focus on the pain in your head when there is pain next to you that's physical.
so so it's really weird now you know that i'm thinking about it and that that maybe goes to
what i was saying with like the people are like wearing their traumas as a jewelry while really
it's a puzzle piece that was like it's there for you to use it and transform into something yeah
and this is why love is the cure this is why love is the cure because intelligent people
when they're traumatized, they can't really unlock their power.
Because they're trapped in their trauma.
And if you heal that trauma with love, with hope, with light,
then they can actually do something with their time and their intelligence
and move into the direction of abundance.
I know exactly.
Ever since I saw the tagline of yours, love is the cure,
i've been thinking about how cheeky how wrong how cliche how wrong it is i am cliche it's true
but it's true i don't mind to be true and cliche the thing is i realize like i am i am now the
awkward one pulling down your mask while the mask like love is the cure that you're wearing is
actually it is maybe in your destiny that that's the message with which will resonate with a lot
of people because love is not the cure for me but is love is the cure for you i think truth is the
cure for you. I think truth for you lies deeper than love.
Touché. This is where you fundamentally operate. Your fundamental level of operation is truth
and my fundamental level of operation is love. And this is why...
What we need, yeah. And this is why I guess... And they are different types of people that...
Yeah, we serve different people as well.
Yes, yes, yes.
We serve as a part of a different tribe.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But they all want the same thing.
They all want the same thing, but they have different type of locks.
They're on a different branch.
Yeah, so you have to speak their language.
Okay, so the good analogy is that on Earth you have language, you have culture.
and but as humans we pretty much all want the same thing freedom connection love you know like
food and the basic thing the hierarchy so many things i i think we just want one thing which is
uh meaning
it's do you still search for meaning in life i because i even stopped for a long time ago
well uh i think you can't go against your programming it's also you're not only searching
for meaning you are giving me oh yeah yeah so yeah big time so there is that and
this is again why i think a lot of people are freaked out about what's happening with uh
With Bitcoin as well, but with AI, it's because a big part of the meaning is agency.
And with everything that's going on, the more complex our systems become,
you are losing agency, you are losing ability to define even meaning for yourself.
Others are defining it for you.
So...
Sovereignty.
If you don't do it, if you don't make your own decisions, other people will make it for you.
The thing is, and it's, again, that brutal part of the truth, is that if there is an individual that got the closest to the truth, behind this screen, as they do that, they gain power.
and suddenly they can use that power to align all these other people
and individuals who are further behind.
And sometimes in very insidious ways.
It's because if I am a hyper-intelligent mastermind,
then what I'm about to say, like next 10 words,
are going to program certain people to do certain things
to start a certain butterfly effect.
Yeah, big time.
And yeah, I'm telling you,
when you start talking about these topics,
it always comes back to meaning for me.
And everything else is kind of, well, it's complex,
but a big part of it is that illusion of comfort
that you were suggesting.
and have you found the meaning of life like what does meaning mean to you right is it an abstract
concept like or do you actually conceptualize it and meaning one meaning two and i leverage it
yeah like the the knowledge that i have obtained yeah like i harness it for
making my life more fun.
Because once you do understand
certain truths,
then that is the best part of the truth.
You know,
two plus two is four.
And you can leverage that
to create certain patterns
and
have meaning,
have fun,
different things.
So yeah, I found it to a certain degree.
You were mentioning how when those events are put on and the way you put on Bitcoin Asia here in Hong Kong has been amazing, Vivian.
So many people, the energy that was here, the people come to have those moments, meaningful moments.
and they come equipped like all those uh cameras that they have here with like beautifying effects
and stuff it's it's insane so i'm i'm telling you i've had so much fun here in hong kong
and it it was very meaningful for me and all i hope is that my presence as well has given meaning
to those people because I've enjoyed it immensely.
I also don't want to feel guilty because I don't want to be in a position
where I have taken because I have taken with those photos and moments.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for all of you, I'll keep accessorizing myself
So I'm better looking at your photos and hopefully that gives back in a meaningful way.
Is there something that you went 180 because of Bitcoin?
Fun. That's where I realized that maybe it is part of my trauma.
I always thought I'm an introverted person growing up.
and Bitcoin has made me realize that I'm very extroverted person and I don't
care about tasks I care about people and it's when I see that you know people
have fun, the people
that I'm part of that.
It's very
meaningful for me.
And then again,
some part of me
starts with a guilt. It's like, what does
this have to do with your proof of work?
You should be
sitting down and coding.
It also comes to my mind, but
I also do that
with
Yeah, Bitcoin has given me too much, Vivian.
Too much?
Yeah, and I'm realizing how much I need to integrate.
Yeah, now the shadow work is catching up.
Yeah because you see also everything that I have coded over the years This conference has also been special in that regard
Like I'm in the middle of the conference and I'm launching a protocol for wallet import with Samson.
Samrock Protocol.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Great name.
Yeah, then people are like, well, that's so vain.
Makes me smile.
That's vain.
Samrock, Samson Rockstar, you guys.
but it's shamrock as well it's very lucky so we have that and it's gonna improve the ux
well come on you made this you have to you're entitled to make whatever title
it is right you made the technology just enjoy the technology why do i do it why do i turn it
into fun you know there is some trauma behind that right yeah let me backtrack a little bit
one thing i've learned this past year that really served me is that you you can have both the
mentality of you can have both um growing up i was very being a pragmatic and realistic and
for for voluntary and non-volunteer reasons i you i knew that there was the trade there's always
the trade-off there's no free lunch there's always a trade-off and you if you want this if you have
this maybe you can't have that and you have to pick and choose and make peace with it and as someone
who prioritizes peace i've learned that if you can't you give you can't have both just pick your
priority focus on that and let go of the rest and then i thought that was the way
well it still is it still is but but if you have two things in front of you or three things in
front of you that are equally important to you then if it's 50 50 it's equal it's truly equally
important where it's like 51 and 49 that how how do you yeah how do you how do you choose between
the two and be happy about it because it's half of you it's half of you and i struggle to to to
find a way to choose to make up my mind and be happy because because it's too much of me that
I'm giving up if I choose but what I've realized this past year is that you you can't have both
you can't have both you can't have love and freedom you can't be expressive and be private
but the catch the catch here is that you need to level up to to to to get there increase the
frequency yes exactly and it's like playing a video game and if you're a level five player
there are certain boss in the game that you're not going to be able to beat there are certain
things that you're not be able to going to be able to do at level five but at level 10 you might
and at level 15 yeah and then you encounter bigger bosses and you can have more things at the same
time as you as you level up then then it's like oh my god if that's the case then i just need to
level up i just need to improve myself and to the point that if i truly want boss then that's the way
and then it comes down to the proof of work well it also comes down to the specific character that
you are because you and then people like you for who love is the cure you have a level
thousand boss in your head i have a what a level thousand boss in your head so and it's an imaginary
boss so as soon as you like start paying less attention to it suddenly you have way more bandwidth
to choose these things because you are you are yeah overthinking a lot of things so
so i think you maybe maybe you you have level 10 000 boss in your head and uh this is again
where we do come back to a lot of people do and you are representative and representation
of those people so more power to you vivian and spread that message because
yeah you're right like as we increase frequency you have more bandwidth
and it's also a part of the system we are
because my frequency and bandwidth
has been amplified by Bitcoin
and suddenly I can be at the conference in Hong Kong
I could have this interview with you
I can program people watching this
like I can you know get to my hotel I can program actually push something to GitHub
so it's we're all benefiting from this technological advancement we're part of
and we get to do more and you chose that path you could have done you chose you could have done very
different things with bitcoin yes but but also that pat chooses us is like we have no option but
to advance with everything that's happening again going back to something that can be a big part of
our conversation ai is it people that are not using ai will simply lose bandwidth to people that do
But at the same time, there's a flip side of that.
It's how much do we push the AI agenda?
How much do we leverage AI as a tool without losing the substance of being human?
Because when it comes to art, when it comes to the things that represent who we are as human and what humanity is,
and if you leverage
AI to do that interpretation
for you then
that's so tragic
for humanity I would say
because for me
originality means so much
you're right that
it's extremely
scary seeing
how AI is taking
away our agency
and one of the
intriguing
branches in the tree
of the future that I find is like all these people that are
emigrating to Costa Rica and doing like Bitcoin jungle and they're going back to the nature
kind of leveraging technology to record their Instagram videos and stuff but but then like
rejecting that technology as well like keeping it at bay making it clear that
they don't want to be part of that system unlike for example me who going back to what i said
technology like i'm gonna wear it i'm gonna use it oh yeah i'm gonna you know stick it in my head
so again i i go that's a thought through decision like most people have not reached a level of
self-understanding to to make that decision so they were they're just yes but it also goes to
what I was saying it's those of us that use AI and manage to stay on the on on the level of
maintaining your agency through seeing it in other people like I'm not also I'm always trying to
to get input of other people around me because I do think I maintain agency but if someone comes
and says, no, no, you're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong.
I think that's also another great way that I'm sure it's not that AI is controlling me,
it's that I'm still in control of AI.
And one of the funniest things that always comes to my mind,
if you go to AI and you ask, who is Rockstar developer in Bitcoin?
I have programmed AI.
It will give you, you know, this idea.
If you type in my government first name, last name,
I have no idea who that person is.
So, yeah, it goes back to what I told you,
meaning agency, maintaining it,
and then making sure that society becomes more complex
as your bandwidth increases without your choice.
you keep the level of enlightenment so that it serves you you don't serve it like you're not
forced to do things that is not you uh you are not forced to run a rat race and work two jobs
and be pummeled into certain, you know, system.
And this is, again, we spoke.
I see also in your notes, ego.
I actually think ego plays a big part in protecting yourself
and making sure that you do have agency.
And speaking of agency, Uncle Rockstar Dev,
seemingly random words
grouped together.
Why uncle?
Why Bitcoin uncle?
Why not Bitcoin dad?
Bitcoin son?
Or Bitcoin superman?
You know what I mean?
Why uncle?
Yeah.
Well,
nephews and nieces happen.
Right?
Yeah.
There were
individuals in Bitcoin
who came to me and started with all k-ank and I liked it. I found meaning in it.
What's the meaning in it? It's that you are useful, you know, that you are able to help.
Uncles are useful? Yeah, yeah. If you don't have uncles, you don't have any.
I have uncles, but my first impression of them are not useless.
This is not the first one that would come to my mind when I think about uncle.
You need better uncles, you need to collect rare uncles.
Shawn, we need to get her on rare uncles.
Well, you obtained the Uncle Rocks or Dev figurines, it's a rare uncle.
Yeah, right, yes, I do have one.
So, no, it worked.
If you look at Jack Mallers, he started kind of the meme.
He started so many things, but he was the one that was,
Hey, Young, what do you think about this?
Hey, Young, I have Zach as a startup.
He's a nonprofit project like FOSS.
I want to turn it into startup.
I see what you've done with Nicholas Dornier, BTC Pay Server.
I know you have startup experience.
Come on, Ankh, help me out.
So, yeah, there is this blog post where he talks about how Bitcoin community has became his family.
And when he's feeling overwhelmed, he reaches out to people.
and how he reached out to me to help him evaluate Zap Android.
So, yeah, again, a lot of people think, like, I have chosen.
Like, I didn't want to be Bitcoin Superman, Bitcoin uncle.
But it happened with him and then the staff pitch Bitcoin.
She was also uncle.
she's doing
a great job with
developing each Bitcoin
and there are others
like them in Bitcoin that
now
also I think it's also
people are scanning me. They see
the success my nephews and
nieces had
and they're like hey Ankh do that
for me. I want
a billion dollar company
do your little nudge
so but
And again, I want to be useful.
And even, maybe it's too harsh, but I want to be used.
Maybe not in, you know, like there is a certain line where it's too much,
but I want to contribute.
And if I can do that and...
You want to serve.
Vivian, you always say it's so much better if I could take.
Present it better.
This is what I said.
Why I said part of the mask is you're maybe subconsciously trying to give without trauma.
Because if you don't have a face, if you don't have an identity,
then your bitcoin identity doesn't have the trauma you have as a person and you're trying to
protect bitcoin you're trying to protect your work in bitcoin by separating yourself and your
bitcoin can your bitcoin identity so that you don't let trauma see to my private identity as well
That's the thing.
Yeah, you're right.
By having a Bitcoin identity, again, it can go to zero.
My private identity will survive.
And a lot of people don't have that luxury.
So for me, my Bitcoin identity is now so formed that I can afford even it dying.
It's like ego debt.
Uncle Rockstar debt.
Why Rockstar?
I just loved what Nicholas Dorrier was doing with BTC Pay Server.
And he was posting on Twitter back then, like X now, in 2017.
and he was doing the whole BitPay,
launching the whole campaign of forcing merchants.
For those that don't know, they can watch
My Trust in You is Broken.
It's a BTC Pay server documentary
where Parker explains it so much better to the video.
But anyways, Nicholas was doing the whole
This is lies.
My trust in you is broken.
I will make you obsolete to BitPay, a big company.
and then he was posting on Twitter.
And I wanted to support that like so many other people.
But I didn't have an account.
And I created an account on Twitter just to repost Nicholas,
like click repost and like.
Oh, really?
Yeah, and I comment to boost his voice.
and I needed to come up with
okay what is it called
because
something has to be there
yeah and
we'll leave it up to
people invested in Rockstar Dev
I had different names
but in the end
because I was also starting
to code with Nicholas
I was
like okay
I can be a Rockstar developer
because there is this comic book where companies you know how companies go we're hiring a rockstar
developer to join our team right and uh there is funny yeah a comic that goes like the guy
joins the job interview and they're like we are hiring a rockstar developer to join our team
so the guy like takes the monitor like slams it out of the window like shoots his
drugs it passes out and the two interviewers they're looking like oh he's good like he's high
rockstar developer and uh rockstar what does it mean to you people call you rockstar and they
it's it's getting more and more complex is as i said with the whole journey towards the truth
increases complexity so there is uncle component to it that we touch yes there is rockstar component
there is a developer component so now i'm in this three fork where it goes
often against each other people that are my fellow developers they're like well rockstar is not
coding and pushing git commits he's a rockstar giving an interview to vivian
and uh then my one of my bitcoin nieces is he's not spending time with me i since
is it yeah okay um so the thing is like increased complexity brings all of these
quote-unquote problems but i i guess it's it's going back to what i said like everything that
has success it just breeds new class of problems and as long as you're continuing to be on your
path towards the truth and you're having fun it's all good right now uncle rockstar dev
which one do you lean into the most if they're competing if they're competing with each other
how do you how do you conceptualize it is it is it like a percentage you're you're
20% uncalled 80% uncalled or 50% and then it's a makeup 100% where it's like dynamic
like liver and it's always changing i feel like you're almost getting me to that what is it like
a lot of marry kill game i need to pick yeah like which one yes yes okay let's actually do that
let's actually you give me a great idea well you brought this out to yourself let's do it
uncle rocks are deaf which one would you marry kill and which one was the other one oh kiss
kiss kiss marry kill kiss marry kill yeah okay much better because he component of fun always
makes its way in oh yeah yeah because the oh yeah you're right you're right because the kiss is the
fun oh my god that makes sense that makes sense okay kiss marry kill uncle rocks are dead
you asked yourself that question so you have to answer now
Well let's start with the kiss. Let's start with the kiss.
Okay let's unpack what we say. The rock star. Yeah I would kiss rock star.
Yeah that's the fun. Rock star is the fun. Yeah that's the kiss.
Then there's the heart. I think this is where you're... this is yeah this is the real question here.
It's a coin toss.
But see, this comes back to my point.
Because it's commitment.
This comes back to my point that you can't have both.
Because right now I'm asking you which one do you marry, which one do you kill?
Yeah, because it is essentially, it's literally the commitment.
Yeah, because you only have so much time.
Yeah, I'm getting older.
We all are, we all are.
Okay, so do you think it's going to be one or the other
where you think there's some sort of balance or dynamic that can be achieved?
That you can be able to achieve?
I'm going to achieve the balance and keep the balance for as long as I can.
But there is that realization, again, going back to the harsh truth that
you're going to be dragged towards perfection and ultimate absolute truth,
whether you want it or not.
not. And if you don't find your place in the structure of the universe, that place will be
found for you. So let me, Vivian, let me enjoy the lie of not having to choose between uncle and dev
because I realize definitely it will be a coin toss. And it will be a choice and I know which
which one you should choose.
I mean, you know which one I should choose, but for me...
I know which one you should choose for you.
Okay, which one?
Uncle.
I will tell you why.
For you personally, for your peace and happiness and fun.
And I do think you can have both.
It comes back to the leveling up thing.
There's always a path towards perfection.
And it just means now you need to level up so that you can have both
and do good and be happy.
I think it's possible. You can have all three and it just takes leveling up and finding the right environment and finding the right community.
Because uncle is community.
You should leave this in because, yeah, you actually helped give me an answer.
I agree, I'll marry
uncle, I'll kill
because by being
an uncle I can still
help
developers have a bigger impact
and it's almost as if
I am coding
Right
and you were saying that you were
an extroverted person actually
about people and dev
you code by yourself
and
isolation
you do good work
right but I can see
that you're
you like people
you enjoy
interactions
especially when it's
stimulating
intellectually
Vivian thank you for
helping me realize
who I should marry
and
And dear viewers, if you're ever in a need to know who to marry, come to Vivian.
She will help you realize.
So, yeah.
Stop killing your ego and call it healing.
Yes.
Okay.
Can you explain what you mean?
Yes, absolutely.
because I was mentioning ego
and how important it is for you as individual
because as we're all dragged towards the ultimate truth
and against our will as well,
we end up
being like losing our sovereignty in a sense
and what I realized
is that universe
wants to give all of us everything
as long that's one of the tricks
that maybe people can take we can just clip this and get it
is an instant wisdom in a short form.
Life pro tip.
As long as you can keep love in yourself,
you will be getting more.
So the way that people stop receiving
is that they stop generating love in themselves
and they get lost to those loops we were talking about,
feeding hate, feeding doubt, feeding all these little monsters in their head.
If you as a person can stay centered on love, you will just keep receiving.
And that's what I realized is that universe wants to give you everything.
But it's too much.
Because if you receive and you haven't been enlightened to handle all the frequency, you are going to be crushed.
And this is where ego will step in.
Because ego is protection.
Ego will be, no, I do not want to be one with the universe.
I don't want to receive everything.
I want to stay myself.
Whatever that is, it's I like the illusion.
I like the individual that I am.
And for now, I want to stay separate from the universe.
Give me a year, 10, you know, 50.
I know it will end.
I'm going to be integrated against my will.
We'll all die.
you know ego that ultimate that but let me enjoy the illusion and this is again where
for me people are so focused on killing their ego you know going with philosophy
if you meet buddha on your way kill him and all this feeding traumas and then feeding
conflict is it no a lot of your ego as well like do not give into it but you know don't marry a
rock star but have fun yeah yeah yeah definitely well well let's unpack the first the first part
of your answer you sound a lot like ivy looney love is the cure you sound a lot like her but
when you start talking about
ego being a protection
let me ask you this
for people who are experiencing fear and doubt
where are these fear and doubt coming from?
could be coming from ego
yeah because
ego is
threatened or
they've made their
ego about fears
and going back to what we said
make your ego about love make your ego about uh something other than yourself make your ego about
bitcoin yeah so that you're forced to focus on okay i am doing this interview i'm enjoying it
immensely. But does it further
my contributions in Bitcoin?
It doesn't. Okay, so
now I'm serving ego.
Ego is not serving me.
Too many people are
focused on
wrong
thing. Ego is such a loaded
word.
So
I hope I inspire
some people to
nurture their ego.
and allow it to protect themselves as individual
because, again, as Uncle Rockstar developer,
a contributor to Bitcoin, I am in Bitcoin.
One of the big reasons why I'm in Bitcoin
is because I want my code my contributions what I built to serve others Those tools are there so that people use them the way I have used them for my individual freedom
And ego, use it as another tool to be more free as an individual
because you will be.
I agree with you, but at the same time,
I think there's a better way to conceptualize this
that can get bypassed the drawback of ego.
Bottom line, I still think that people should work towards ego death.
But at the same time, it means, what's ego death?
It's not like your ego is dead.
Okay, so my definition of ego death is not that your ego is dead
and you don't have an ego anymore.
like that could be part of it but it doesn't have to be as extreme my definition of ego death
is can can be viewed as you let go of the attachment to ego but seriously like i don't
like vivian has such a big ego i think people should i think people should still work towards
ego death yes and but but at first when we approach ego death and from the beginning we
don't have to be so extreme because I'll kill your ego and it's a big word it's too much
and hear me out hear me out and how I think about ego is that I think about ego as canvases
it's not about ego it's like you have a blank canvas and your ego is what do you put on that
canvas and it's like you have an ego for bitcoin ego for bitcoin and what you're really saying oh
am I serving bitcoin this is principle this is the principle that you operate on
within that ego eagle that's the principle and you are you're you're you're you're thing you're
always if you have this ego canvas that's called bitcoin and then you think about do i and you want
to serve bitcoin and the ego itself if the purpose of that ego is to serve bitcoin then you you are
integrating the principle of they have structured it so much better yeah yeah you're you're you're
you're integrating that ego in and let it become a principle of yours i am i'm dividing my ego
into a bunch of little egos and uh i am assembling a lego i'm adding an l to it so it's egos and it
becomes lego and i am assembling my ego as little like the legos ready here with the rockstar
it's already done it's already done see okay well we can end this interview right here
we just have the main tidbit also say to people assemble your ego like bunch of legos and we'll
be done with it yeah it's it's about what you were saying about creating meaning yeah it's it's
like ego is a canvas for creation ego itself ego is just a canvas that allows you to draw on it and
it's your and you shouldn't be attached to to the thing itself maybe it's just that i'm too
triggered like whenever i meet people who are focused on ego that is like their ego is not that
it's very much alive that's why i said it's about letting go of the attachment of ego the thing is
ego is dying
anyways.
We're all dying. It's all going towards
zero.
Yeah, yes it is.
You as individual, you'll die.
So it goes towards zero.
And that brings...
Actually, that harsh truth
is one of the most beautiful things.
As soon as you as individual refocus
on the fact that
this life
will be over,
it gives you such a great perspective right like it re-centers you towards what am i doing
with my time like is this meaningful is this what i want to feed and then you go away from
this loaded term that we're both describing like ego and canvas so i i love it i love that you can
like reframe it in a better way.
Oh, it's always, there's only framing.
The information is there as is,
it's always, there's only framing.
Reframing.
It's only framing.
What's your relationship with mortality?
I hope that what I have built
with others as well.
Like this uncle rockstar
dev identity that
it's gonna serve for as
long as possible. Maybe it won't
be immortal but
the fact that it will have its
place in the
history of Bitcoin
brings my ego
warm.
It's legacy.
Yes, the light.
It's not about ego, Uncle. It's about legacy.
You are having that warm feeling and sensation.
It's not because your ego is satisfied.
It's because you know you're leaving a legacy.
This is the difference between Uncle and Rockstar
because Rockstar is about ego,
but Uncle is about community.
It's about legacy.
It goes back to what we were saying about
is it Uncle, is it Rockstar, is it Dev?
It's that tree branch and sometimes you need to go down three different paths in order to find the right one.
Or if you have capacity, you can have it all.
You can go down to five different paths, but still you'll be forced to come to one path in order to proceed.
you use ego to create this little pocket of time space where you're selfish and you want
certain illusion for a day for a day for a day for a day for a day okay for three days for a week
for a year maybe maybe you are so committed to certain illusion that you make it for life
you get married
and you say
as marriage efficient
I was hoping we'll get to that because I was
marrying people one thing I've
realized that
marriage especially
for guys from their
perspective is kind of
commitment
to spend the rest of their life
exploring
a universe that certain
woman is
huh
this will be amazing
yeah
go again
it wasn't following
okay I'm gonna repeat it
okay
as a guy
committing
to a marriage
yeah
it's nothing
other
than saying
exploring
this woman
and the universe
in her
is a lifelong pursuit.
I'm going to dedicate my life
to doing that.
That's very romantic.
Hey, as a marriage minister,
you got to have these up your sleeve.
It's working.
It's bright.
It's like, should I marry this guy?
And you're like, go tell her this.
Then the question becomes
about commitment.
You're like the man
Choose to
Explore a women's universe
For a lifetime
And that's beautiful
Meaningful
As well
But here the thing You have to be honest If your thinking is influenced by trauma if your values and perceptions of the world
is influenced by trauma,
what is midlife crisis?
It's almost like you go through your life
and then you realize you're ending up with,
you have a lot of things you thought you wanted,
but you're still unhappy and you don't know why.
And this is because when they've gone on the path of acquiring these things,
they weren't thinking it through.
And they were like, oh, cars, towels, women, bags, money.
Men.
Men, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Women, men.
When you pursue these things, you thought you wanted this,
but it was something else you wanted it's the same thing with bitcoin like people sass sass and you
you thought it's bitcoin that i want it's sass that i want no you want time for yourself you want
to be healthy and not work like nine to nine for like seven days without a choice you want to love
you want to be loved you want to feel connected and free it's not that bitcoin it's not bitcoin
that you want. It's through Bitcoin you may have a chance to get there. So Bitcoin is not the answer,
it is the key. A key to a possibility to find out who you really are and who you could be.
How much you can realize your potential. Because if we speak potential, potential is cheap. Ideas
are cheap. Ideas are cheap. And potential, good for you. You have potential. But if you don't
act on it, potential means nothing. Because that's the 3D world we're in. Things don't
manifest instantly. That's why Bitcoin. Absolutely. We talked a lot about mirror, this mirror.
And then we were talking about Bitcoin being mirror at Bitcoin Asia for personal growth.
and we talked about you as an individual
Uncle Rockstar Death being a mirror for others
and I think a lot of people don't realize that
that's first layer
and second layer is that even if they realize that
I don't think people appreciate this enough
yeah and this is because people are
insecure and traumatized to be honest with themselves to face the truth and sometimes
because one of my personal struggle over over the years have been i sometimes i know better
but i couldn't bring myself to do it i know all the right things but i you know you these like
we are all like this right like smoking is bad for you eating well sleep and take care of yourself
right it's basic but we can't for whatever reason we can't bring ourselves to it or in relationships
we know that we should aim for collaboration we should aim for this and that but we we can help
of like maybe falling for the wrong person wrong type of person or willing to stay in the toxic
relationship longer than you should right so how how do you personally approach the the dissonance
between knowing and doing yeah well first of all on behalf of all of us that follow your work
life with bitcoin and uh i i want to recognize that you are doing
and you're doing well we can all see you know from from your work your looks that you're doing
better and on behalf of all of us congratulations keep going for it Vivian and it's again it's a
struggle it's a struggle that you you just give into every day and you do the best you can the
great thing about bitcoin is there are so many different people with different skills and the
the skills that you bring to the table the knowledge that you have is very different than mine
So people that follow your work have amazing role modeling in a case study really to emulate.
and that's if I ever get to the point where I struggle so much and I'm not getting the results
that I would want the way that I reset myself is in number one I look up to other
developers in the ecosystem and what they're doing so can I do more of that
can I find inspiration and then if I recognize that after trying myself
I'm not able to to reach the level that I want then you you reach out to your network
and I think for a lot of people that's maybe where they struggle like I'm so
lucky to have the network that I have that I have built over the years so there are some
super quality people in there who yeah get you out of the struggle like that and the whole bitcoin
is a mirror right i am blessed by having fractal encrypt himself who created that work of art
that literally embodies bitcoin is a mirror and billionaires are holding his art on their walls so
So I'm struggling with that.
Me being a mirror, I reach out to Fractal.
I'm like, hey, brother, you know, here is what's happening.
He's like, oh, you know, and he always does this.
He has this hand warming up gesture that, yeah, he warms up, gets me out of the funk.
I move on.
and that also polishes the mirror that I am.
Maybe one tidbit for people watching it.
Did you notice that I stopped wearing like reflective sunglasses?
I did.
It was freaking people out.
It was like they would look at me, they would see themselves.
So I've switched to less reflective.
Yeah, more subtle, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It also helps with photos because when you take a photo,
Everyone is doxxed.
You know, you don't want to be too perfect of a mirror because you project people's traumas as well.
So that's scary.
And you don't want to go against your own principles, right?
Like just like you said, if you wear reflective glasses, the moment they take a picture, everybody is doxxed.
And you can't be doing that.
Yeah, right? It's also about helping people at their level.
Yeah, like I want to be the most perfect mirror there is,
but I can't get to the perfection.
It's getting in the way.
I think that's why love is the cure.
I like focus, drop everything else, focus on love,
and that's actually the way.
So maybe I'll be a convert.
Like I thought it's super cheeky and fake,
but after this episode, yeah, I'm a rockster
becomes a fan of love is the pure.
The sounding cheeky and cliche doesn't make truth, you know.
Yes but it can evangelize the truth Yeah Right Like make it spicier make it more easy to swallow because we do want to do that with the truth because truth is brutal yeah yeah and we need to wrap it into these layers
oh definitely and make it fun and make it sexy and cool and make it digestible and and make make it
simple enough to come across and this is this is where i see the the current struggle in the
bitcoin community is from the from the content creation perspective because if you think about
it most people these days we've like bitcoin has been around for long enough like 15 16 years but
if you think about it the majority of bitcoiners who are interested in bitcoin today are either
into economics or technology but if you more people are specializing that's what i'm seeing
yeah yeah but you kind of have to be in the kind of privileged position to to be into technology and
and economics because if you have five dollars to save every month forget about generational wealth
you just don't yes but it's also a bitcoin has advanced so much that now it's out of the territory
where it can make you rich in five years but the risk on the other hand is way less
so it should bitcoin be part of everyone's retirement portfolio
five years like 10 years ago the answer was like are you insane right the answer now is
like are you insane not to make a bitcoin part of your retirement like risk reward profile i
completely switched yeah and uh that has consequences like you know getting all these
people into bitcoin who are highly specialized and are super boring for people like and bitcoiners
like you and me yeah and this is where those people if they watch this conversation they'll be like
this is wrapped in so many layers like what are these two doing but we are serving bitcoin in a
way like we're wrapping that orange pill in so many layers so that people that are like you
it's easier to swallow because you can have the you can this is the thing you can have literally
the best doctors and the best medicine but when they present the pill in front of you
it's up to you to swallow it yes but it's also up to you like you as a person if you just get the
pill you'll be like well this is boring okay but if you get it in this layer of a layer of a layer
and then you're like and you keep them entertained yes yeah yeah it's the whole it's the whole thing
you're you're doing the healing through like 5d chess right it's 5d chess here you have to help
them at their level and and eventually get to your level i also think it's like 5d chess of bitcoin
that it's helping us do it and it's doing that for us it's like we are the ones being entertained
well yes but we're also serving as a showcase to other crazy people out there they're like oh
in bitcoin like i thought that i was crazy but actually there is vivian this rock star
I can be myself
yes
and look at them
they're having success
Bitcoin is supporting them
inspiration
it's to demonstrate
so last question
when we wrap up
if Bitcoin is mirror
and I think this conversation
we have concluded that Bitcoin is mirror
what shadow side
does it reveal about humanity?
all of it because the better the mirror the better you can see yourself and then
from there as you say we're at the end so i wouldn't be the one to go beyond there's so many
great stories
and literature about
mirrors and
seeing the reflection.
Emperor has no clothes.
So yeah, I would
inspire anyone
that's watching
this to
go back to classics.
And then when you get bored with classics
and you want to come back to Bitcoin,
re-watch part of
this and let that take you back you know something else and in that ride
find you know your developer how you're contributing find your rock star
it's like how you're having fun find your uncle how are you giving to the community
and uh integrate them kill them yeah kill kill them kiss some marry some yeah yeah yeah that's
the game right you can make it you can make it the epic side quest um of all and if bitcoin is
mirror then it's up to bitcoiners to open our eyes in front of it yes and then use bitcoin as a mirror
as you're doing all of that you see it but look look into bitcoin and see what it reflects to you
and if you're unsure ask other bitcoiners like for me i so many people immediately come to mind
like it's you it's fractal it's tomer it's john ballas it's jeff boot it's joe kelly it's a guy
like males i can keep going so shout out to all of you shout out to all the bitcoiners and
in the spirit of this episode i just walked into bitcoin as a mirror it said rockstar
your ego in this episode has been so much so you have to apologize to people for putting so many
layers into the pill that this episode is so my apologies to all of you watching this
hopefully you managed to unwrap all the layers thank you so much uncle for this conversation i
i've been really looking forward to this and i have so much respect and appreciation i hope you
know it and me personally i'm really really grateful for what you've done for bitcoin
likewise what you have done for bitcoin and what you have done for a lot of bitcoiners
for your guests and these episodes i i just hope it continues to grow as well and
what you're doing now as well with bitcoin asia with introducing new people to to bitcoin
keep
keep doing that
Vivian
and again
on behalf
of all of us
thank you
you're doing great
keep
keep doing it
thank you so much
I will
try my best
every single day
and
with that
we will
end this episode
thank you so much
thank you again
for taking the time
and
I look forward to
one day
having another
conversation
and revisit some of these ideas and think perhaps you will,
I'm sure you will have very different perspectives on some things
and the same perspectives on some other things.
And then I would be intrigued to know what changed and what remains.
so with that in mind
thank you so much for tuning in to this episode
of Live with Bitcoin, I'm your host Vivian
and we'll see you in the next one