realize that if you're not happy in your life, what is the point?
What is the point of all of it?
You know, if you're going to be a Bitcoin advocate,
well, again, anger and upset don't help anybody
or help the space or anything else.
So figure out a way to contribute
and then figure out a way to make your life happier.
Because if you're not happy, then again,
I don't know what you're trying to convince anybody for.
Welcome to Live with Bitcoin, where we delve into the human side of Bitcoin by focusing
on Bitcoiners' personal transformations and life stories.
I'm your host Vivian, thanks for tuning in.
If you like and want to support our mission on shining light on the human side of Bitcoin,
remember to subscribe to this channel, leave a comment or send a few stats from link in
the description.
Today we have Mel join us.
Mel is a long-term Bitcoiner and active voice in the Bitcoin and Nostra communities,
known for her grounded, straightforward perspective on culture, responsibility, and human behavior within the space.
Having spent years immersed in Bitcoin evolving community from early conferences to online conversations,
she brings a lived understanding of how Bitcoin changes,
not only just how people think about money, but how they relate to each other.
Through her experience observing and participating in Bitcoin culture over time,
Mel has developed a reputation for speaking plainly about what works and what doesn't,
and how people grow within a system built on personal responsibility and voluntary participation.
Today, much of her engagement happens on Oster,
where the conversations turn to reflect some principles that drew many early adopters to Bitcoin in the first place.
Openness, signal over noise, and freedom to show up as yourself.
Welcome, Mel, to Live with Bitcoin.
Thanks for having me.
Let's start from your journey entering to the Bitcoin space, finding your own space in the journey.
What pulled you into Bitcoin originally?
So in 2015, I read about Internet money.
In 2014, I went to Europe for the first time, trying to transfer money and exchange money.
was so expensive and difficult.
And I've been a seller online since 1998.
So dealing with international customers is really hard.
So when I heard about the internet money,
I was like, this makes perfect sense to me.
And it made sense that it was,
I think at the time they were also talking about it
going through the gamer community.
And I thought, okay.
So I bought a hundred bucks worth
and promptly forgot about it.
In 2017, a friend of mine said, hey, have you heard about this Bitcoin thing?
And I'm like, holy, I think I've got some of that.
So I go dig up the account and I open it and my $100 was $4,700.
And I went, what is it?
What is it doing?
And is it going to keep doing it?
So I went down the rabbit hole and I have not come out.
So that started 2017.
I didn't even know where to begin.
I mean, I didn't know anything.
I didn't know anything about money, finance, nothing.
Interesting.
You know, I didn't know how the world worked, nothing.
So when the rabbit hole happened, you started to look into what is this Bitcoin thing?
And then what happened?
Well, I went down and I started to realize, okay, so I'm good at figuring out who to listen to.
It's one of my superpowers.
All right.
I can find that person.
And I figured out that Bitcoin people were on Twitter and YouTube.
So at first, I followed a few guys.
And I mean, they were young, really young.
And there was a whole lot of shitcoin conversation.
And that was confusing because I was like, geez, is this, you know, what is the difference?
And somehow, and I don't even know how, but I found Tone Vays.
And Tone, I got on his YouTube channel.
And he was like, he must have said it in the first 10 seconds of me being on there.
shit coins are not the same as Bitcoin and here's why. And he explained it really clearly,
really plainly to where I went, thank God someone is telling the truth. And he didn't
take sponsors and did not, there's like so many things that he did to be a trusted person,
you know, in the space. And I had, you know, been listening to people and just, I couldn't figure
out why I should listen to that. And it always seemed a little off. You know, you had these
young, young guys who were into this and not long ago. Okay, so I am the creator and producer of the
Bitcoin Boomers podcast. And we had Gary Cardone on. And Gary Cardone made this point. And I went,
oh my gosh, he's so right. He's like, I have never encountered a space where people weren't
in TradFi. They didn't know anything about money and they have become like experts in seven or eight
years. So I didn't know if he meant that in a good way or a bad way, but it doesn't really matter
because it's true. You know, people have learned, like I learned so much and understood it to the
point where it made me understand how connected everything is. And, you know, whether it's
It's worldwide money or economics or other kinds.
It's like all of these economies are connected and Bitcoin will be affected one way or the other.
So if you don't understand what's going on in the world too.
So I started to, it was like a snowball that just, you know, gained speed as it went down the hill.
That what I needed to understand was so much bigger than just Bitcoin.
So yeah, it changed everything.
Do you remember when you first entered the space?
Like what felt familiar?
What felt strange?
when you first starting to talk to Bitcoiners or even come up with the word Bitcoiner, what was...
That was a while. It took a while.
Right? Like what was strange and what was familiar in that process?
Well, it was all strange at the beginning.
Like I'm in, I'm on Twitter.
I don't know, like Twitter just never clicked with me.
I didn't know what to do with it.
But as I, I just kept reading and reading and reading.
okay and it wasn't until like I said it wasn't until I found tone that I'm like okay this guy
tells the truth and the people that he has on I can listen to them and I literally just I have um
I've never learned quite in the same way most people do but I had to just listen and absorb it
and I had to do it for like four years I mean it was painful yet like for so long I would just
listen and be like, I don't know what's happening. I don't know what he's talking about. My God.
And so like, but little by little, you know, I know now and I understand. So it just took,
I don't know what part of it. Well, and of course, like I decided I was going to learn how to trade.
Oh, I'll get more Bitcoin if I know how to trade. I can trade it. Okay. Well, that's crazy. I mean,
it's not an easy thing to do. And, you know, I was determined and now I can read charts like it's
nobody's business. But trading and reading charts are two different jobs. So but I just I've learned
it's really crazy. I mean, it's really ridiculous. If you would have told me that I'd be sitting here
with you and we would be talking about this, I would have said you're you gotta be kidding me.
What is your personal definition of Bitcoiner? If you were to give a definition of who what is a
Bitcoiner? Who is a Bitcoiner? Well, how would you define the word? And when do you feel like you've
crush that personal threshold to become a Bitcoiner?
It was when I understood the difference between everything else and Bitcoin.
So my definition of Bitcoiner is someone who knows that, that knows that Bitcoin is the
answer, but it's also the person who understands that it is about freedom and it is about
personal choice.
And I think some of the Bitcoin maxi world, I guess you want to call it, you know, there's
a lot of judgment.
for what people do with their Bitcoin or what you should do and what you shouldn't do.
And it's like, do you even remember why you're here?
You know, you're here because Bitcoin is freedom.
And that's freedom to choose, freedom to do what you wish.
And stop judging everybody and stop telling them what to do with their Bitcoin.
Like, it just goes against everything Bitcoin is.
So one thing to listen and to or to present your own opinions on things.
It's another to judge people.
I don't have any say over what you do with your money or your Bitcoin.
It's none of my business.
Where do you personally draw the line?
Because I also agree with you.
And in practice, oftentimes we see this toxic maximalism going on because we love you.
And then we want you to understand this.
And that's why we're toxic.
Do you think Bitcoiners should go that far?
when we are orange killing people. I just don't think it needs it doesn't need to be that way.
I mean I just followed somebody the other day because the bullying had gotten to a level it
was really unnecessary and we're grown-ups like the things that are said and these are all things
that would never be said to anyone in the real world and so I draw the line when you're insulting
someone and you're not just having a conversation like an adult. So, you know, I just draw the line
and, you know, I'm going to say this too. Misogyny is a very big thing in Bitcoin. And so I draw the
line there. If I hear any of that stuff or any of this, you know, I don't know, the nonsense that I
hear a lot of. And yeah, that's where I draw the line as well. For sure. Well, looking forward to
delve into a lot of those topics. Looking back now, over all these years, what do you think kept
you around when a lot of people drift away? Well, I can see why people drift away. It can be a lot.
It can be stressful. And again, you have a lot of people coming at you all the time. So I get that.
I stayed personally because I thought if I can understand this, anybody can. You know, middle-aged,
white woman, mom, you know, from I come from Metro Detroit, you know, we came from a hardworking
blue collar area where you don't talk about investing or anything. It's just like that was
something grandpa did. And even that was odd. So it's like I realized that there's so many people
like me. And that's another thing that Bitcoin people like to do is say, you know, well, you're
they're just stupid. Well, I'm not sure I was stupid. I just was completely uneducated. Not
something we talked about in school, not something my parents talked about. You're only going to know
what you know because you were brought up in it or something like that. So it isn't like people
are purposely ignoring things. And I wanted people to see that I am not a male from, you know, 25 to
45. I'm a completely different demographic. And I believe in this for, you know, the reasons I
believe in it. It's interesting because a lot of times, like, I feel like Bitcoiners sometimes
after a long time they've been in this space and after they've go through a lot of frustrations
trying to orange pill people or introduce them to Bitcoin, they kind of forget about how their
journey was in the first place. And there was this level, there's this sense of compassion
that's missing a little bit when they reach the threshold of why you don't understand. Like they
get so frustrated to the point that they can't extend compassion. I have stopped. I've stopped
trying to orange pill people that don't want to be orange pilled. But they know who I am and they
know that I'm there and I'm a part of it. And if they decide they have questions or want to learn
about it, I'll be there. I'm not going to punish anybody for not, you know. Again, I know I just
got lucky. I got lucky that that one day I was thinking about, oh, internet money makes sense
and that we could be transacting without using one kind of currency. That made a lot of sense to me.
And there's so many things about it now that make this still make sense.
I mean, it doesn't none of it's changed.
And I think when you're part of it that long and you still have those same you see the same characteristics, the same qualities.
And that hasn't stopped.
And again, I know there are people like, did you know that the 50 and up crowd, they control 80 percent of the money in the U.S.?
So what if 1.1% of that went into Bitcoin?
What that would do?
And that would be huge.
So I'm also here to talk to people who are older, who may not understand that if they don't have this, they're going to suffer in their older years.
Now, like, let's say you're a boomer.
You're already D9 years old.
You've got maybe millions of dollars in the bank, maybe a million.
And so you may need to add Bitcoin to what you have, but some boomers will be fine and they're not going to mess with their money right now.
You know what I mean?
They know that they have to work and they have or they have to have that work for them for the rest of their lives.
For sure. For sure.
So there's just a lot of situations and I feel like I can address a lot of them.
Yes. And I feel like I'm a relatable person in that too.
Because if I were to go to boomers and say Bitcoin this, I don't think I will be very convincing.
to the degree that you could be, right?
Because we do need the sense of connectivity.
And it is what Bitcoin is about for the large part.
It's to bring us together and rethink a lot about our world.
So for you, growing up in a blue collar family and in your generation, in your household,
what was your relationship with money in general before Bitcoin?
And I bet you work with a lot of boomers.
So do you see a trend? Like, do you see certain characteristics of relationship with money that boomers turn to have?
Boomers had it better than the generation underneath, which is me.
But they came right out of World War II.
There were all kinds of things going on with the government to really make life in the U.S. great.
You know, you were brought up to believe in your institutions, you know, your bank, your library, your school systems, like all of these things.
You were built, you know, my generation is probably the last little bit of that where we were taught, you know, we were sitting in first grade and a police officer would come and talk to everybody.
And you were taught that you could tug on their sleeve and ask for help.
and so so that's what's different about this you know generation like realizing that that's not
the case is really it really sucks but i'm young enough that i have to acknowledge that where
if you are older you may not want to acknowledge that because you're just thinking oh hell maybe i
got 10 years left i'm not going to worry about them i'm going to worry about me are there any
questions that about bitcoin that come up specifically among boomers yeah there's let's
see like reasons why they don't that they're not in bitcoin one is scams they don't it's it's the
scam the suspicion there's a lot of that happening in boomer land as it is yes and like this nancy
guthrie kidnapping over the past two weeks bitcoin has been all over that you know the the kidnapper
asked for I don't know if you heard about this story but it's Samantha Guthrie of the Today Show
she's been on there for like 30 years some people kidnapped her 84 year old mother in Tucson Arizona
and they got a ransom note in they wanted it in Bitcoin so that made the media go insane the way
they talked about it like they couldn pronounce it right Bitcoin they wanted it in Bitcoin could Could you do a Google search Could you call someone who knows what they doing I mean I literally started to put in the comments like this is the biggest
Bitcoin conference. I just figured this would be good for credibility. But here's the biggest
Bitcoin conference that exists in the United States. Here's the speaker list. Pick one and
call them. Why is there no list? Like we need to put out a list of credible people to call
if you need to talk to someone about Bitcoin.
Because I don't think it helped the price in these past two weeks at all.
Right. Yeah.
When you think about that 50 and up crowd, they're the ones watching CNN.
They're the ones that are, you know, seeing this and it just sounds,
it's just such an awful, just didn't sound good.
They're spiraling in the downward trend of all the sentiments
that come all over the place.
So scams and, you know, that's all a big deal in terms of Bitcoin.
The other one is too late.
We got in too late.
So that was, of course, over 100.
But nobody wants to buy at 67.
Now they're scared.
So that's two big ones right there.
Interesting.
Well, understandable, really.
Like understandable, right?
Sentiments right now are shaped so much by news.
And like you say, scam.
And I think there's an untapped potential and missed opportunity here
for Bitcoin culture to thrive for real and then to demonstrate how Bitcoiners live their lives
because this is this is where I've learned over the years but it comes down to the life with
Bitcoin and even if tomorrow Bitcoin goes to zero the life we have spent as Bitcoiners the life we
have chosen differently because of Bitcoin and how it changed us changed people around us and
change how we view money, our relationship with ourselves, with others, so that we can show up in
the world with more love and hope. I think that's ultimately the point. People, some Bitcoiners are
missing that point, and they're making it about stacking sets. And that's great. And it's great
to build towards generational wealth. But I'm a little bit scared for that crowd too, because
they think they're being low time preference.
And some of them, they're thinking that I'm making a choice.
I'm making a preference or even a sacrifice for future prosperity.
But nobody is guaranteed a future.
No, that's true.
I fear, like I worry where I agree for them sometimes.
I don't know what will happen to their life, to their mind,
if something uncertain happens and then they need to face that and then to make peace with that. I
think that's a lot. So I really wish. Yeah, go for it. Well, we've learned so much and that's part of
it. Like today, I know so much more about money and so much more about like I am. I mean, I was
taught that money is only good for what it buys. OK, I had a job when I was 14. I was paying for
everything of my own. And so my work life started young and I've worked really hard. One thing I've
known always is I'm always going to be able to figure out something if something was to happen.
I am happy that they're in their 20s and 30s. And yeah, some of them are going at it in a crazy way,
but at the same time, they're learning and paying attention to money. And I didn't get that lesson
until I was much older.
So I'm so happy that people will have an opportunity.
And I feel like if something doesn't work out,
well, they're teaching themselves so much about, hopefully,
because that's the only thing I guess I would be worried about
is not expanding your view beyond Bitcoin Twitter.
You need to read yourself.
You have to learn and you have to look at other things.
You need to travel. You need to understand when you're what you're talking about, you know, because there's so many things that there's so much anger and just so much craziness at times that I feel like that's part of an experience.
and uh what is it is that the dunning-kruger effect where you think well i could climb mount
everest even though i've never done anything to try to train for that or anything else but yeah
i could do that and it's just that lack of experience talking because you assume that you
could but the older you get and the more life experience you get you realize like have a child
see how that changes your life and your perspective because it changes everything
for sure for sure i think we we say stay humble stack stats and and it really goes to everything
that we can't assume we can't assume what we think will happen and we can't assume ourselves
right and it's not about me being right i convince you i'm being right you have to listen to me
because that that's like missing the point what do you think bitcoin culture or the bitcoin community
reviews about people that other environment don't.
Jeez, the community is interesting. I mean, I've made so many friends and listen, we're all
still, you know, like no offense to El Salvador. I don't have any problem with it. But to think
that people could come from all over the world and maybe gather there as Bitcoiners, we all come
from different places. We all have different traditions, diets, family dynamics. And I think
Bitcoiners sometimes miss that it's we're humans. You know, we're not like robots who are all about
Bitcoin. So we're all the same and we all believe the same things. But at times it seems like that
is what they want is for us all to believe the same thing. All of us to have the same viewpoint
and same view of the future.
And again, like that doesn't make sense.
Like you don't want to only live in a world
where everybody agrees with you.
Because if you do, you are living in a cult.
You know, you're not looking at both sides of anything
and you have to, and you'll learn.
Like you learn that as you get older,
you'll hear like a story
and you cannot imagine that that could be a decent one
or maybe it wasn't as bad as that.
And then you'll hear the other side of it.
And you're like, oh, I see, I see.
You know, so it's again, like it's that weighing.
And I think Bitcoin can show people that there is fairness here.
Okay, you can look at both.
You can look at how Bitcoin works.
It's fair.
Okay, it has rules that it follows.
And I definitely believed back at one point that most Bitcoiners had a lot of integrity.
I have found that is not quite.
Yeah. You know, there's people that, I don't know, they either want like a shot of ego or a something.
And who I really appreciate are the ones that just are working.
You know, the ones that are working towards something and or doing something and really trying to get the word out in a good way or helping those who can get it out in a good way.
So it's like finding your space, finding your place in the space to contribute somehow would be better than trolling people on X.
Yes. Where do you think that is coming from?
Because I guess a lot of Bitcoiners today are like Freedom Maxis or they found Bitcoin through this deep sense of frustration of the fiat society.
And then they were angry, they were traumatized and they were looking for solutions and they found Bitcoin.
And then I see that there's so much anger and trauma that goes into the process to the point that they, the way that sometimes these negative emotions get poured out is subconscious and it's painful to watch.
Like, you don't really have to go there.
No, get some therapy, you know.
Realize that if you're not happy in your life, what is the point?
What is the point of all of it?
If you're going to be a Bitcoin advocate, well, again, anger and upset don't help anybody or help the space or anything else.
So figure out a way to contribute and then figure out a way to make your life happier.
Because if you're not happy, then again, I don't know what you're trying to convince anybody for.
I mean, what are you trying to convince them of?
Okay, yes, Bitcoin is the best asset.
It may take some time for things to shake out so that everything is good.
But I wholeheartedly believe that. But I also believe that it isn't good to wrap your entire.
Well, I mean, my brother and sister would tell you that my entire world is Bitcoin.
I mean, look behind me. It's OK.
But it's also made me realize that I have to do things for myself.
Yes. And I have to create my own world and my own happiness and that I can't sit around and wait for anybody to do it for me.
You know, it's not. And I think there's a lot of that. And there's a lot of, you know, looking at people who are creators in space.
And I mean, like maybe the developers and the people who are writing code.
And, you know, there's a lot of finger pointing of this and you should do this and you shouldn't do that.
And this is, you know, so there's like interpretations of things as well.
And it makes it difficult. And I'm not sure.
I just feel like everyone needs to open their mind instead of the complete and utter yes or no.
You know, everything is very yes or no, black and white, where I don't think it's that simple.
I don't think anything about Bitcoin is that simple.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And you've experienced this as a woman.
You mentioned misogyny.
It's an issue in this way.
So were there any moments for you where being a woman felt incomplete, felt in Bitcoin?
Yeah, there's been lots of that.
There were any moments that felt very relevant.
Okay, well, I will say that when I went to Unconfiscatable for the first time, that was in 2020.
I went by myself, like I said, middle-aged white woman, alone, shows up at this conference, and I was really welcomed with open arms.
And I am still in a group with three other guys, three guys who are still like very good friends of mine to this day that, you know, we chit chat and things.
And I was very accepted.
It felt really nice.
And they were just great guys.
And I was amazed by that.
I really was.
And it kept me in it.
And it made me think, OK, there's good people here.
And there definitely are.
But there's also bad people here.
Just because you are a Bitcoiner does not mean you are a nice and ethical person.
And that is, if anyone takes away anything from this, that is the one thing you need to keep in your mind.
Because like I was saying earlier, we all come from different places.
We come from different everything.
And just because we have Bitcoin in common doesn't mean that you don't have to watch your back.
Yeah, big time.
Have you noticed men and women responding differently to Bitcoin?
Like in what way do you think?
Because men and women are wired differently.
And that's fact.
Women are more empathetic.
Right.
So how, when it comes to understanding Bitcoin and approach Bitcoin community and industry,
do you notice a different approach between men and women?
Yeah.
I mean, I think most men are talking to men.
And women are also talking to men.
I mean, we're talking to 90% men, no matter how you slice it.
Okay.
So I'm not a big bully.
it's probably not going to come off well, but not really a big, like I'm a believer in wanting to
hear people speak because of what they're talking about, not because you're a woman or a man,
for sure, big time. And I think that I sometimes, sometimes I feel like, okay, we're going to have
the ladies only brunch. And that's nice. But I really, I don't know. I don't want to segment
the population. I feel like we should all be together in some way. And I know there are more
men but maybe they need to recognize who's qualified more instead of just everything you
know not looking at who does have a really amazing brain and talk the talk and understand and carry
the conversation like bring those people on but see they would they're gonna get more hits on
their podcast with a guy because guys want to watch guys talk about this why is that
Why do you think is that?
I don't know.
There's something there.
Yeah, there is.
Yeah.
Well, for sure.
I mean, it's like I can talk about, I could go on and talk about collectibles and I could talk about this,
but they don't want to hear my opinion on price or markets and things like that.
It's like the trust level isn't equal.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
Do you think women have the same thing?
Do women have want to listen more from women too, let's say?
I don't think so.
Not necessarily, right?
Not necessarily.
I mean, I think there's like plenty of women that I will listen to that I'm happy to listen to.
But do you feel like women have this lean, natural lean as men that, oh, if that's a woman, I want to be listening to them.
No, I don't think it's like that.
I don't feel like it's like that, but it could be.
But that's just not definitely not my feeling on it.
For sure. I agree with that because I'm not someone who believe in gender.
I feel like we connect with each other on a very fundamental basis.
That's that's deeper layer than gender and deeper layer than money and even deeper layer than culture.
Sometimes like on soul level, there's no gender.
There's no nothing. We're all humans and race like whatever.
Right. Like it's nonexistence on that level.
So I agree with you there. But I do see how women and men are wired differently to the point that they approach the same thing in different manners. And in the past, we've talked to Bitcoin recruiters saying that like women candidates would wait until they have they could do 100% of the job description to apply versus the demand would be applying if they feel 60%, they will feel confident.
And then like you were saying, how you quietly listen for four years before you start talking about Bitcoin or before you really start to consider yourself something in the community.
But I bet that time frame for men is probably a little bit shorter.
Probably.
So in 2021, I started volunteering at different events.
And when I showed up at Unconfiscatable, they're like, here, do this.
And I'm like, OK, OK, all right.
So and I come from an event, an events background.
It's what my businesses have been.
And so I figured this is how I can contribute.
And this is how I'll learn more.
And I'll be able to, you know, absorb more just by being there and being a part of it.
So I've done that since 2021 also.
So it's a lot of bringing, bringing people together, creating.
And it seems like your line of work kind of goes along the vein of how you personally got familiarized with Bitcoin too.
Do you, and over all these years, and Bitcoin is a space that value a lot about independence.
Independence, sovereignty, you have to kind of like do your own thing, right?
Like don't trust, verify.
And it emphasizes on a lot of sovereignty related topics and independence.
Let me say this.
there is a lot of trusting going on a lot okay a lot of trusting without verifying is going on
all the time period that's true that's true do you what how do you find it contradicting
for the idea of collaboration and sovereignty and trust like how do you kind of explain the
gap between what we say and what we do i don i stick to my own values on it you know i try to be the person who you know I trying to emulate a Bitcoin a Bitcoiner a Bitcoin standard I don know how you what you want to call it but you know I tried to be ethical and tried to
help. And it's like, it's a decentralized platform where it needs that. Okay. We're not,
we're not going to get anywhere unless we do come together on things. And then, but then I find that
there's just a lot of competition and a lot of like suddenly like real world things pop up.
Things that you don't expect from someone who claims to be a sovereign, free, whatever individual.
You find that humans are humans and sometimes that's not a great thing.
Sometimes it's, you know, the human behavior and the human aspect of it.
yeah there's all kinds of things that I've seen that are definitely you know you think well if
they're doing this well they must do this or they must know blah blah blah and they don't find out
like oh my god so I've seen this more than a couple of times and kind of shocking and when it happens
it's a little disheartening as well and it makes you want to stick with the people that you know
really well and be very cautious about who you let in because yeah it happens so it's just something
that I'm I'm saying because I feel like people when you're in that euphoric stage and everything's
great well you will let things happen or let people in that maybe you shouldn't and like this
is the time where the price is down where everybody does get cranky and it's like this is the time
where you work harder. You work harder during this time and you pay attention to what's going
on around you. The people that are still here and that are still active are people to usually pay
attention to. Interesting. People go on, you know, take some breaks, but you'll see people disappear
for long periods of time and then they'll show up again and tell you what to do. It's kind of weird,
you know interesting for sure i've definitely agree with that for the sense of discernment
that's required increasingly in the space where interest in general because even outside of the
bitcoin context there's so so much voice like so many voices there around us from far close media
where family like peer pressure where everybody panicking about what's next and and if we allow
if we listen to that and lean into these anger or fear or anxiety, then we will get carried away
with those things and not be able to tell what is signal and what is noise. You just said you
had this specialty of knowing who to listen to. Tell me more about that. I've always been good
at, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. My sister's really good at it too. And she plays
poker. She has her own dance studio, but she also plays professional poker. I mean, she's
placed in, you know, WSOP tournaments. And anyway, she has just gotten herself. Now,
she's just like me. She has been doing this. She has three little girls. She goes to Vegas when
she has time, which, you know, isn't that often. But I told her, I'm like, you find the best
players, you find the people that you like the most and that are the smartest and stick with
them. You know, just insert yourself at every possible opportunity. And then this is how you
will learn. And you'll you'll find out like you start to find out from these people and you once
you make friends and you can trust that person. Well, now you're going to listen to who they like
to listen to. So it's a process, you know, it takes time. But you've got to find like, OK,
who are the people who believe like I do? And then where are they getting their information from?
Who do they trust? And then obviously you have to put your own judgment in there. But once you feel solid enough with somebody, okay. And then you can kind of look at what your favorites are across the board. Like Bob, Bob Burnett. He, I will use him as one of my favorite examples because I didn't know, I didn't meet him until I think 2022.
And when I learned about his background, it just hit me like a hammer.
Like, oh my God, this is who we need in the space.
And he was, he worked on the world's first laptop in the 80s, like late 80s with Zenith,
who was creating them for, I want to say it was like an order for the U.S. Army.
And they didn't call them laptops.
They called them like clamshells or hard shell things.
That kind of looked like a shell if you think about it.
Yeah, yeah, it does.
So I don't think they called them laptops then.
But he went on to work with Gateway Computers and was part of the team that took them public and was their CTO.
And this is the time where the Internet came.
People did not believe that they were going to need a home computer.
Like, it's just like no one thinks they need Bitcoin.
No one's going to need that, but they did.
So he's like one of the few people in the space that experienced that adoption curve of the Internet and of the PC.
And he understands from that perspective what's going on here, okay, and how this adoption is going on.
So once I understood that about him and what his background, what his experience was, I realized there's no one else in the space that has it.
No one.
Not like him.
So, you know, he has the technical knowledge.
He has contacts like you wouldn't believe.
he is a part of things like groups that have to do with quantum physics and just like he has his eye
on everything so the way i see it is is that if bitcoin is going to crash bob's going to be the
first one to know and i want to make sure that i'm on his text list so that if it's going down
bob is going to know it so like that's the kind of way like understanding that at that time in life
I was an early eBay seller and I was a gateway user and I was waiting for that cow spotted box
to show up with my computer on it and like that my first laptop was a gateway and to think that Bob
was in South Dakota and then in San Diego working on this blows my mind like living legend
total legend and then the part that you don't even think about is taking that company public
what he learned about taking companies public was it was another like hit over the head for me and
i realized like these publicly traded mining companies they're not in it for bitcoin they're
in it for the shareholders they're not the protectors of the bitcoin you know base layer
They're public companies.
That's not what their obligation is to.
It's not to Bitcoin.
And so that has concerned me ever since I learned it.
But I'll say the one thing about publicly traded companies is that they have money.
They have funds to keep going.
And they can borrow and borrow and borrow off of that and continue on and go in a different direction if they want.
Where I wasn't sure what was going to happen to them at first.
When I learned all of this.
and now I'm learning pay attention because everything takes longer than you think it will
yeah wow there's a lot of calm calmness and patience that I'm sensing from you because
it's like if you if you come to the space with knowledge and context maybe some context mostly
knowledge or economics or whatever and then you find Bitcoin you're like oh wow I found the sound
money and and I'm I'm set I just need to success and stay humble and I'm all good and then like
Like you said, real life happens, right?
You have the Bitcoin culture shift.
You have your personal life change, like life stages start to change.
Maybe you have a kid, maybe you have a wife now.
Like everything changes.
And when those things happen together, it really challenges us as humans, not just as Bitcoiners.
Right.
And how do you show up as a person?
And that's the test.
And Bitcoin in that equation is a tool that help you be the better person that you could be or be the person you're destined to be.
But that's the means to an end.
And if you feel like you found Bitcoin and found the answer, then I worry for you.
I mean, the world is really coming after us for those of whom who are not aligned internally.
And I think that test is specifically severe for Bitcoiners because we claim to be sovereign.
There is a lot of claim.
And I think it's not that simple.
I mean, at this point, it's hard to be completely sovereign.
And like, let's say you're getting orders from Amazon.
You're not sovereign.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so then my question is, what's your thought on this whole purity complex that we seem to see?
a little bit in Bitcoin of how should we hold ourselves accountable? I don't think we have to.
I think we can be who we are. I mean, if there's this group of people and they want to be like that
and they think that that proves some kind of point, well, good for them. I just know that's
never going to be me. I don't mean never, but it isn't right now. I see being that way. First of
all, you've got to have the means, okay? And there are, you know, I am not a wealthy Bitcoiner.
I've worked very hard.
I mean, from the pandemic, like I was out of business for two and a half years.
So I have had to work hard to, you know, continue on and to be a part of it.
Can you survive and save and have?
But one thing I can say that I never could say before was that today I have savings.
You know, it am.
And so I feel like I said, I feel like this is something that anyone can take part in.
so a purity test is it's like what is the purity test i mean how do we know that you're not full
of shit and you most likely are if you're preparing to be all that you most likely are i mean listen
i have heard just just again i'm gonna say it if you're getting packages from amazon you're not
any of the things that you're claiming to be though and it's just that no one has more info
on you no one is more info on humans in this country than amazon your bank doesn't have as
much info. And until we're all in a different place from that, talk to me then. We're just not
there yet. And things can take longer than we think. And after 17 years, I would like to think
that we can at least say that, you know, listen, in 17 years, stop for a minute and do a Google
search or find an expert instead of listening to the guy on TMZ for your Bitcoin information.
And so that's something that's been on my mind the last couple of weeks is just like,
we got to get some people's faces out there, you know, to talk about this and get called on
when you need an expert. Yeah. Because it is such a negative connotation. Otherwise,
you know, they either it's like they say the word Bitcoin with contempt or confusion. No in between.
Interesting. They either say Bitcoin with contempt or confusion. Wow. That's a powerful line.
That's true. That's true. And if you think about it, like our touch points as individuals of Bitcoin, it comes down to each time we see Bitcoin in the news, or each time we see a Bitcoin sign somewhere, or each time we overhear someone eavesdropping on someone having a Bitcoin conversation at a coffee shop, which increasingly so I'm starting to hear people talking about Bitcoin in different contexts at coffee shops or just randomly.
So there's definitely the culture shifting.
I really appreciate you for the calmness and then the peace that you already seem to have compared to a lot of Bitcoiners in space.
Because there's no fear from you.
There's not much anger.
There's not much like I can't.
You are really big.
I'm lucky to be here.
Right.
I'm really lucky to be here and lucky that I'm learning what I've learned.
I mean, I can call Bob Burnett and Larry Lippard friends.
How crazy is that?
I mean, how crazy is that, that I can talk to them and that they talk to me and respect me?
And Gary, Gary Leland is one of my very best friends, I mean, in the space.
And I've learned so much from him.
And, you know, one of the things I've learned from him is do what you say you're going to do.
And like once I called him, I don't know, I must have been cranky or something.
And I was like, I just don't feel I'm just not in the mood.
And he's like, what are you?
What are you, 14?
Suck it up.
He's like, suck it up and get going.
Make it happen.
I'm like, oh, shit, you're right.
Thank you.
And now he really does inspire me that way because he's not, you know, that's how he makes things happen.
And I realized that there's just so many things to learn from people who are successful.
And they had all three of these guys had great fiat careers.
They didn't need Bitcoin, none of them, but they found it.
They understand it.
And I feel like those are the kind of people that we need speaking, you know, in the space
and talking to people.
We need translators because it's great that we hang out in our bubble and go to the conference
and have a blast of everyone.
Absolutely.
What is the responsibility?
What is the collective responsibility we have as Bitcoiners when it comes to the world out there?
The people that don't know Bitcoin yet but needed it the most?
Because if we think about it, most of the Bitcoiners right now, they're either into technology or finance, still, still economics.
And people complain, oh, there's not enough women in Bitcoin.
There's not enough this.
But if our cohort of content and if our focus on Bitcoin is just that, then you can't blame the mass public for thinking Bitcoin is just that.
Because we are supposed to know and we're supposed to create content that represent Bitcoin in different lines like we experience.
So this is kind of where I'm kind of pivoting into different segments and different industries wanting to create, wanting to make music, but not Bitcoin songs, but love songs.
Because I write love songs and I don't mention Bitcoin in it.
And it's really about can we connect people through love?
And what I've realized is that, yes, money is super base layer, but being human and love is more base layer than money.
Everybody right now is so angry and traumatized from history, from fear society, from just generational trauma that trickled down to us.
And every single one of us is like that.
And what now?
Even if we have Bitcoin, then the real challenge will just start then.
Now you have the financial side of the things figured out, hopefully, where you're on your way to saving towards someone.
What do you do with yourself?
What do you do with your relationship, with your children?
And how many Bitcoiners who are doing the proof of work now can stand having seven days in a row where they don't have to work?
like because i'm facing that myself and i'm i'm sensing this restlessness in me that is making
me lose hair is making me feel really stressed and and i feel anxious of i could be doing more i
could be proof of working on this proof of working on that and then i i stressed out about it and
then i i think a lot of bitcoin would be on the same same trajectory right for sure yeah especially
we've come this far through proof of work and we know the heart the blood and sweat that goes into
this for me there's still the sense of fear a little bit that's coming out wanting me to to be
doing things but i'm really recently been practicing purpose over duty and and grace over
grind this is something i've been practicing have to let go some of the values that i have that i
project onto myself, self-induced.
So do you feel like over the years that you have to let part of you go somehow I do and I have I gotten much more independent Yeah something about Bitcoin I just I don know how to explain it
Okay, well, the first thing I'm going to say is
you got to give yourself a break, okay?
Because we're all humans,
and we're not always going to be doing proof of work.
You know, there's times to stop and sit outside
and enjoy yourself a little bit.
and definitely spend that time, you know, find something that you love to do.
Yeah.
And when you're feeling like, I don't know what I'm going to do, well, guess what?
You could paint, you could do something while you're figuring that out.
What is the best strategy?
How can I do this job perfect?
We're the best.
And I can't seem to let go of that.
So what are you, does your brain go faster at night or in the morning?
Like, when are you finding your mind racing and kind of like telling you what to do?
Morning.
Okay.
So I have a lot of the same kinds of feelings.
One thing that I learned, well, I used to wake up and immediately start to think of every single possible thing I needed to do, including brushing my teeth, my floss, and all these things.
So I learned this trick where you find a song, a song that doesn't necessarily, isn't maybe your taste or it's different.
It's not something you're listening to every day, but you find a song and you learn it.
And the minute you wake up, your eyes wake up, you start to sing that song.
Okay.
It distracts you.
So, you know, I will start to sing it even, you know, just out loud.
And I get up and I don't touch my phone either.
Okay.
No phone.
And you do your bathroom things.
You make coffee.
You do all of that.
You get yourself.
So you make your bed, open the windows, whatever it is you need to do.
And you do all of that without your phone.
So the point of it is not to pick up your phone first thing, not to start ruminating different ideas and starting to frustrate yourself immediately.
So you're getting home and you're feeling peaceful because you're singing and you're doing those things that are routine.
And that's where you're giving your brain a break.
Okay.
When you're ready, you know, your coffee's made.
You can get your phone.
You know, you've got your office area set up and you sit down and then go ahead.
But just take that, even if it doesn't even need to be more than 15 minutes at the max,
like of just leaving the phone, getting those things done.
You know, I put my contacts in.
I even try to sit in the sun for a few minutes and I'll bring my phone with me.
But like I will sit down outside for a little bit and try to chill before I do something,
you know, before I go into what I'm going to do.
And so, but it's the song, the first thing that's that song distraction that gets me moving.
Interesting. That's a really good trick.
I'm going to try that.
Find a singer or somebody that, you know, you don't normally listen to.
Like somebody told me about a song and it was kind of a song about where she's talking in the song about not being the things that everybody's told her that she is.
and so it's like to me it resonated with me I'm like oh this is good but it isn't something I'm
going to hear on the radio so it's that song has one purpose for me and that is getting me out of
bed and making me think a little bit about how being grateful how important that is like another
trick is it's the gratefulness trick when you're in the shower think about how amazing it is that
you have hot water yeah like clean hot water just rushing over you and really feel like how amazing
that is yeah like that will get you like give you this burst of of peace and happiness and just like
when you really realize how lucky we are to have that I mean there are people that have never had
that in their lives so to like take that minute in the shower to just go wow am I lucky and grateful
Well, yeah, always.
Gratefulness is always a good, good approach to everything.
You've got to really feel it.
You have to really think about it and really.
And that's what I was taught.
Like the way I learned that was the original lesson had to do with lemons.
And we were taught to pretend you have a lemon, cut it in half.
It's cold.
It's wet in your hands.
And you're feeling that.
Now, imagine putting it up to your mouth and now your mouth's watering.
So like you're really feeling that.
That's how you have to feel about being grateful.
Yes.
Seriously, you didn't feel it.
That's how we manifest for our brighter future too.
It's really the sensation of it.
And this is how we really, as humans, need to lean into our emotions,
but not let it destruct us.
But we need to trust more on our emotions and instinct because we already know.
And then it oftentimes comes back to, do you have the gut to listen to yourself sometimes?
So over the years, when it comes to perspective and authority,
what have you noticed yourself softened over time?
And do you feel like there's something about you that have been firm, more firm about over time?
Yeah, I'm not as trusting as I was.
when I say that I mean I am empathetic so I do have a tendency to draw people who sense that
and will take advantage of that so I'm not as trusting as I once was and I've put some boundaries
down for that kind of a thing so that's one thing that I wish I would have done in my 30s you can't
be open to everything and you can't if something is bothering you you have to pay attention you know
bring it up talk to somebody about it it may not be anything but it might be something big and you
don't want to miss it if it's something big so at least bring it up to somebody you know that you
feel comfortable bringing it up to you know who isn't going to judge you if you still decide you're
going to do it but you know just talk to somebody about it and if it's still on your mind after you
do that well then you know you have to pay attention because something's not right even
though you want it to be right. And that's the problem is that we all really want to do something.
And so when you get opportunities to do things, you're going to, that's your first thought. Like,
wow, someone finally recognizes that I can do something and that feels good. So you might ignore
that there are some other signs that maybe aren't quite there. Like, wait, why are they asking me to
do this? So it's like asking both sides of that question. That's such a good advice. Because
sometimes in is it's through the process of talking about it ourselves we organize ourselves
i'm like this particularly i think through speaking so when i'm talking the words come
out first and i'm really hearing myself so i have to talk it out with someone and it's tremendous
help because if you're if the partner you're picking in that process is knows you enough and
And then it's just, then they catch you when you start to say certain things coming from yourself.
Like, why do you say that?
Like, what does that mean?
You just said that.
And it says something about you already, the fact that you say it this way.
And then it's already giving you so much information.
And you're like, oh, wow, you're right.
I do.
Or I even say a word.
If I'm afraid to tell you what I'm going to tell you, well, then that tells me something.
Yes.
and see that's something i didn't catch right away yes and thought well i'm gonna say it anyway
because maybe i'm wrong maybe it's not like that but nine times it is see the fact that you're like
i'm already feeling uncomfortable that's why i'm even gonna go even more gonna go there and
that's humility and honesty and you can't because otherwise if you recognize if you're not
humble enough or if you are not honest to yourself enough then you find something that's a little bit
iffy and then you turn 180 and then you go somewhere else right like this is what will
happen if you are not honest so this is it requires a high level or conscious level of
humility and honesty to even go beyond ourselves to say oh i'm i'm not sure and i'm gonna tell this
to someone without feeling I'm going to be judged or rejected.
It comes down to security too.
So see that even something like this, it's really speak about everything you are and
who you are as a person.
So it's really a package deal.
It's a daily practice for us to really be better each day and work on ourselves.
It took me a while to get there.
Yes.
Listen, people like us that are people that are interested and like the fact that we're all into Bitcoin means we do have an ulterior, like an ul, not ulterior, but like our brains are a little bit different or maybe we have a higher risk tolerance or we see something.
And if we can see that, then we have to be able to see other parts of us too.
Because we can all be very, very smart at this, but really bad at relationships or really bad at family dynamics, whatever it is.
And so it doesn't fix everything.
You know, Bitcoin fixes this.
No, it doesn't.
You have to fix things yourself too.
Exactly.
So that whole Bitcoin fixes this, I feel like that is sometimes another thing that they say to cop out of fixing something.
That's an outsource of responsibility.
Sure is.
I'm married, not very good.
Family, not very good.
Bitcoin fixes this.
So I don't have to do anything.
Bitcoin just can fix it.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's going to be a lesson or an epiphany
that all Bitcoiners will at one point have to go through.
And the sooner the better,
so we can start for real doing something for ourselves,
doing something for our lives and our loved ones
and for the world.
And how can we, now that we have found Bitcoin, understood it to the point that we do whatever that is, we now also have the responsibility to help the rest of the world at least get on their journey to truth, to love about themselves.
So if to end our conversation here, if someone is feeling extremely lost or extremely clueless of what's going on in this world right now, what would you tell them that can help them?
Well, every day you got to do something, something. And whether it's buy Bitcoin or not buy Bitcoin, that's not the point. Normally, when I'm having a conversation with somebody and they are lost.
Well, I start with, and I do have a friend like this, and we've started, we started on the personal side of maybe how things were not going so well and talking about, okay, what can you control? There's only so many things in your life that you can control. So focus on those things.
Now, in the process of that, and this actually went on for a couple of years where she was transitioning into a new place to live and didn't have a place to live.
And she listened to me when I told her, just buy a tiny bit of Bitcoin, a couple hundred bucks.
And she still has that to this day.
And it gives her hope.
She's hopeful.
And I love that she did that.
But again, like she still has a hard time, but I can be there helping her.
So it's like, look to help somebody.
And I don't mean to help somebody. You don't have to do everything, but her and I just messaging each other and sending a dog video or I'm thinking of you or I just wanted you to know I'm here for you.
I think that's huge for people and just to be connected and stay in contact.
And, you know, that's what you can do.
And if you're that close to someone, you can do that.
Well, then you can start plugging Bitcoin a little bit.
I did that to my brother or my sister, you know, so it's taken time and I do it very
gradually. But eventually, I'm going to get you. I think it comes down to intention and
we have to, even with good intention, we have to discipline ourselves to do it in a non-condescending
way. And, you know, I got to that point where I was kind of that way and then I just stopped,
You know, you know me. And if you want to know anything, I'm here to tell you. I'm happy to tell you everything I can tell you. And that's that's where I stay at this point, because it's just people don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it.
Yeah, for sure. I definitely had the similar kind of period and how I made peace with that is that everyone have their own timeline. And I'm here to serve as a touchpoint. And I may be the first touchpoint instead of the 100 touchpoint. And the reaction I'm going to get as a touchpoint in that journey is going to be different because people are going to react differently when they see it for the first time or 100 times. That's just natural.
And I think it's also come down to us letting go of control and that I know better.
And it's a little bit of it is egotistic, too, that I know better.
I know that I know better.
And you should listen to me.
We're right.
Like there's the sense of control going on there that we really have to work on letting go to the point that we only act from love, from good intention.
and in a manner that's not, that's respectful of other people's journey.
Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, you'll find yourself, you know, I remember I love my best
friends from high school, but we're not the same. You know, it's me and them and they think I'm crazy
and I love them. And I had to take a few days off talking about Bitcoin and talk about other stuff
that, you know, some things I don't care about, some other things I do care about, but I care
about them. So I still love them. And they all know that they know about Bitcoin. They know I'm
into it. And if they want to know more, I'll tell them. That's so sweet. Love is the cure.
It is. Compassion and honesty. Totally, totally. Wow. I really love this conversation. And if it
wasn't for Bitcoin, we wouldn't be able to meet each other across the world and have the opportunity
to have a conversation to talk about humility and maturity and the personal transformations
happen on the Bitcoin standard. So deeply, deeply grateful. It's an amazing conversation to have
like in the Bitcoin space. So thanks. I mean, thanks for having me. Amazing. Amazing. I'm so
glad you like it too. I hope this conversation would give a little bit of food for thought for
anyone who's going through a hard time, who's on the fence of Bitcoin and who are a little bit
fed up perhaps by the sentiments of Bitcoin coming from all directions, the news, and
sometimes it may not be in the favor of what Bitcoin really is. So hopefully this conversation
serves as a starting point for you to look at Bitcoin from a different lens and think that it
can mean something that's way beyond finance technology. And there is a role for Bitcoin to
play in every one of us lives because I've never met a Bitcoiner who doesn't agree with the
statement that Bitcoin changed my life. And on that note, thank you so much, Mel, for joining me
in this conversation on Live with Bitcoin. And always amazing to see the life with Bitcoin happened
in real life. And especially in your case, there's so much wisdom and peace and love that comes from
your journey and thank you so much for what you do in the community.
I'm included in the community who were deeply inspired by you and hope to keep in touch and
keep inspiring.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Live with Bitcoin.
I'm your host Vivian and we'll see you in the next one.
you