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realize that if you're not happy in your life, what is the point?

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What is the point of all of it?

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You know, if you're going to be a Bitcoin advocate,

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well, again, anger and upset don't help anybody

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or help the space or anything else.

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So figure out a way to contribute

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and then figure out a way to make your life happier.

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Because if you're not happy, then again,

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I don't know what you're trying to convince anybody for.

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Welcome to Live with Bitcoin, where we delve into the human side of Bitcoin by focusing

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on Bitcoiners' personal transformations and life stories.

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I'm your host Vivian, thanks for tuning in.

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If you like and want to support our mission on shining light on the human side of Bitcoin,

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remember to subscribe to this channel, leave a comment or send a few stats from link in

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the description.

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Today we have Mel join us.

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Mel is a long-term Bitcoiner and active voice in the Bitcoin and Nostra communities,

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known for her grounded, straightforward perspective on culture, responsibility, and human behavior within the space.

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Having spent years immersed in Bitcoin evolving community from early conferences to online conversations,

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she brings a lived understanding of how Bitcoin changes,

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not only just how people think about money, but how they relate to each other.

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Through her experience observing and participating in Bitcoin culture over time,

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Mel has developed a reputation for speaking plainly about what works and what doesn't,

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and how people grow within a system built on personal responsibility and voluntary participation.

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Today, much of her engagement happens on Oster,

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where the conversations turn to reflect some principles that drew many early adopters to Bitcoin in the first place.

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Openness, signal over noise, and freedom to show up as yourself.

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Welcome, Mel, to Live with Bitcoin.

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Thanks for having me.

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Let's start from your journey entering to the Bitcoin space, finding your own space in the journey.

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What pulled you into Bitcoin originally?

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So in 2015, I read about Internet money.

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In 2014, I went to Europe for the first time, trying to transfer money and exchange money.

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was so expensive and difficult.

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And I've been a seller online since 1998.

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So dealing with international customers is really hard.

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So when I heard about the internet money,

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I was like, this makes perfect sense to me.

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And it made sense that it was,

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I think at the time they were also talking about it

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going through the gamer community.

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And I thought, okay.

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So I bought a hundred bucks worth

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and promptly forgot about it.

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In 2017, a friend of mine said, hey, have you heard about this Bitcoin thing?

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And I'm like, holy, I think I've got some of that.

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So I go dig up the account and I open it and my $100 was $4,700.

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And I went, what is it?

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What is it doing?

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And is it going to keep doing it?

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So I went down the rabbit hole and I have not come out.

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So that started 2017.

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I didn't even know where to begin.

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I mean, I didn't know anything.

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I didn't know anything about money, finance, nothing.

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Interesting.

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You know, I didn't know how the world worked, nothing.

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So when the rabbit hole happened, you started to look into what is this Bitcoin thing?

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And then what happened?

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Well, I went down and I started to realize, okay, so I'm good at figuring out who to listen to.

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It's one of my superpowers.

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All right.

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I can find that person.

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And I figured out that Bitcoin people were on Twitter and YouTube.

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So at first, I followed a few guys.

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And I mean, they were young, really young.

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And there was a whole lot of shitcoin conversation.

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And that was confusing because I was like, geez, is this, you know, what is the difference?

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And somehow, and I don't even know how, but I found Tone Vays.

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And Tone, I got on his YouTube channel.

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And he was like, he must have said it in the first 10 seconds of me being on there.

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shit coins are not the same as Bitcoin and here's why. And he explained it really clearly,

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really plainly to where I went, thank God someone is telling the truth. And he didn't

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take sponsors and did not, there's like so many things that he did to be a trusted person,

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you know, in the space. And I had, you know, been listening to people and just, I couldn't figure

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out why I should listen to that. And it always seemed a little off. You know, you had these

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young, young guys who were into this and not long ago. Okay, so I am the creator and producer of the

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Bitcoin Boomers podcast. And we had Gary Cardone on. And Gary Cardone made this point. And I went,

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oh my gosh, he's so right. He's like, I have never encountered a space where people weren't

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in TradFi. They didn't know anything about money and they have become like experts in seven or eight

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years. So I didn't know if he meant that in a good way or a bad way, but it doesn't really matter

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because it's true. You know, people have learned, like I learned so much and understood it to the

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point where it made me understand how connected everything is. And, you know, whether it's

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It's worldwide money or economics or other kinds.

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It's like all of these economies are connected and Bitcoin will be affected one way or the other.

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So if you don't understand what's going on in the world too.

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So I started to, it was like a snowball that just, you know, gained speed as it went down the hill.

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That what I needed to understand was so much bigger than just Bitcoin.

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So yeah, it changed everything.

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Do you remember when you first entered the space?

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Like what felt familiar?

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What felt strange?

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when you first starting to talk to Bitcoiners or even come up with the word Bitcoiner, what was...

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That was a while. It took a while.

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Right? Like what was strange and what was familiar in that process?

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Well, it was all strange at the beginning.

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Like I'm in, I'm on Twitter.

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I don't know, like Twitter just never clicked with me.

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I didn't know what to do with it.

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But as I, I just kept reading and reading and reading.

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okay and it wasn't until like I said it wasn't until I found tone that I'm like okay this guy

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tells the truth and the people that he has on I can listen to them and I literally just I have um

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I've never learned quite in the same way most people do but I had to just listen and absorb it

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and I had to do it for like four years I mean it was painful yet like for so long I would just

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listen and be like, I don't know what's happening. I don't know what he's talking about. My God.

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And so like, but little by little, you know, I know now and I understand. So it just took,

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I don't know what part of it. Well, and of course, like I decided I was going to learn how to trade.

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Oh, I'll get more Bitcoin if I know how to trade. I can trade it. Okay. Well, that's crazy. I mean,

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it's not an easy thing to do. And, you know, I was determined and now I can read charts like it's

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nobody's business. But trading and reading charts are two different jobs. So but I just I've learned

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it's really crazy. I mean, it's really ridiculous. If you would have told me that I'd be sitting here

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with you and we would be talking about this, I would have said you're you gotta be kidding me.

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What is your personal definition of Bitcoiner? If you were to give a definition of who what is a

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Bitcoiner? Who is a Bitcoiner? Well, how would you define the word? And when do you feel like you've

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crush that personal threshold to become a Bitcoiner?

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It was when I understood the difference between everything else and Bitcoin.

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So my definition of Bitcoiner is someone who knows that, that knows that Bitcoin is the

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answer, but it's also the person who understands that it is about freedom and it is about

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personal choice.

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And I think some of the Bitcoin maxi world, I guess you want to call it, you know, there's

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a lot of judgment.

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for what people do with their Bitcoin or what you should do and what you shouldn't do.

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And it's like, do you even remember why you're here?

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You know, you're here because Bitcoin is freedom.

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And that's freedom to choose, freedom to do what you wish.

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And stop judging everybody and stop telling them what to do with their Bitcoin.

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Like, it just goes against everything Bitcoin is.

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So one thing to listen and to or to present your own opinions on things.

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It's another to judge people.

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I don't have any say over what you do with your money or your Bitcoin.

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It's none of my business.

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Where do you personally draw the line?

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Because I also agree with you.

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And in practice, oftentimes we see this toxic maximalism going on because we love you.

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And then we want you to understand this.

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And that's why we're toxic.

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Do you think Bitcoiners should go that far?

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when we are orange killing people. I just don't think it needs it doesn't need to be that way.

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I mean I just followed somebody the other day because the bullying had gotten to a level it

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was really unnecessary and we're grown-ups like the things that are said and these are all things

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that would never be said to anyone in the real world and so I draw the line when you're insulting

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someone and you're not just having a conversation like an adult. So, you know, I just draw the line

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and, you know, I'm going to say this too. Misogyny is a very big thing in Bitcoin. And so I draw the

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line there. If I hear any of that stuff or any of this, you know, I don't know, the nonsense that I

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hear a lot of. And yeah, that's where I draw the line as well. For sure. Well, looking forward to

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delve into a lot of those topics. Looking back now, over all these years, what do you think kept

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you around when a lot of people drift away? Well, I can see why people drift away. It can be a lot.

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It can be stressful. And again, you have a lot of people coming at you all the time. So I get that.

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I stayed personally because I thought if I can understand this, anybody can. You know, middle-aged,

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white woman, mom, you know, from I come from Metro Detroit, you know, we came from a hardworking

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blue collar area where you don't talk about investing or anything. It's just like that was

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something grandpa did. And even that was odd. So it's like I realized that there's so many people

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like me. And that's another thing that Bitcoin people like to do is say, you know, well, you're

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they're just stupid. Well, I'm not sure I was stupid. I just was completely uneducated. Not

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something we talked about in school, not something my parents talked about. You're only going to know

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what you know because you were brought up in it or something like that. So it isn't like people

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are purposely ignoring things. And I wanted people to see that I am not a male from, you know, 25 to

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45. I'm a completely different demographic. And I believe in this for, you know, the reasons I

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believe in it. It's interesting because a lot of times, like, I feel like Bitcoiners sometimes

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after a long time they've been in this space and after they've go through a lot of frustrations

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trying to orange pill people or introduce them to Bitcoin, they kind of forget about how their

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journey was in the first place. And there was this level, there's this sense of compassion

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that's missing a little bit when they reach the threshold of why you don't understand. Like they

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get so frustrated to the point that they can't extend compassion. I have stopped. I've stopped

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trying to orange pill people that don't want to be orange pilled. But they know who I am and they

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know that I'm there and I'm a part of it. And if they decide they have questions or want to learn

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about it, I'll be there. I'm not going to punish anybody for not, you know. Again, I know I just

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got lucky. I got lucky that that one day I was thinking about, oh, internet money makes sense

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and that we could be transacting without using one kind of currency. That made a lot of sense to me.

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And there's so many things about it now that make this still make sense.

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I mean, it doesn't none of it's changed.

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And I think when you're part of it that long and you still have those same you see the same characteristics, the same qualities.

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And that hasn't stopped.

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And again, I know there are people like, did you know that the 50 and up crowd, they control 80 percent of the money in the U.S.?

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So what if 1.1% of that went into Bitcoin?

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What that would do?

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And that would be huge.

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So I'm also here to talk to people who are older, who may not understand that if they don't have this, they're going to suffer in their older years.

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Now, like, let's say you're a boomer.

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You're already D9 years old.

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You've got maybe millions of dollars in the bank, maybe a million.

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And so you may need to add Bitcoin to what you have, but some boomers will be fine and they're not going to mess with their money right now.

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You know what I mean?

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They know that they have to work and they have or they have to have that work for them for the rest of their lives.

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For sure. For sure.

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So there's just a lot of situations and I feel like I can address a lot of them.

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Yes. And I feel like I'm a relatable person in that too.

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Because if I were to go to boomers and say Bitcoin this, I don't think I will be very convincing.

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to the degree that you could be, right?

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Because we do need the sense of connectivity.

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And it is what Bitcoin is about for the large part.

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It's to bring us together and rethink a lot about our world.

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So for you, growing up in a blue collar family and in your generation, in your household,

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what was your relationship with money in general before Bitcoin?

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And I bet you work with a lot of boomers.

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So do you see a trend? Like, do you see certain characteristics of relationship with money that boomers turn to have?

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Boomers had it better than the generation underneath, which is me.

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But they came right out of World War II.

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There were all kinds of things going on with the government to really make life in the U.S. great.

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You know, you were brought up to believe in your institutions, you know, your bank, your library, your school systems, like all of these things.

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You were built, you know, my generation is probably the last little bit of that where we were taught, you know, we were sitting in first grade and a police officer would come and talk to everybody.

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And you were taught that you could tug on their sleeve and ask for help.

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and so so that's what's different about this you know generation like realizing that that's not

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the case is really it really sucks but i'm young enough that i have to acknowledge that where

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if you are older you may not want to acknowledge that because you're just thinking oh hell maybe i

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got 10 years left i'm not going to worry about them i'm going to worry about me are there any

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questions that about bitcoin that come up specifically among boomers yeah there's let's

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see like reasons why they don't that they're not in bitcoin one is scams they don't it's it's the

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scam the suspicion there's a lot of that happening in boomer land as it is yes and like this nancy

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guthrie kidnapping over the past two weeks bitcoin has been all over that you know the the kidnapper

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asked for I don't know if you heard about this story but it's Samantha Guthrie of the Today Show

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she's been on there for like 30 years some people kidnapped her 84 year old mother in Tucson Arizona

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and they got a ransom note in they wanted it in Bitcoin so that made the media go insane the way

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they talked about it like they couldn pronounce it right Bitcoin they wanted it in Bitcoin could Could you do a Google search Could you call someone who knows what they doing I mean I literally started to put in the comments like this is the biggest

215
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Bitcoin conference. I just figured this would be good for credibility. But here's the biggest

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Bitcoin conference that exists in the United States. Here's the speaker list. Pick one and

217
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call them. Why is there no list? Like we need to put out a list of credible people to call

218
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if you need to talk to someone about Bitcoin.

219
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Because I don't think it helped the price in these past two weeks at all.

220
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Right. Yeah.

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When you think about that 50 and up crowd, they're the ones watching CNN.

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They're the ones that are, you know, seeing this and it just sounds,

223
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it's just such an awful, just didn't sound good.

224
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They're spiraling in the downward trend of all the sentiments

225
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that come all over the place.

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So scams and, you know, that's all a big deal in terms of Bitcoin.

227
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The other one is too late.

228
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We got in too late.

229
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So that was, of course, over 100.

230
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But nobody wants to buy at 67.

231
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Now they're scared.

232
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So that's two big ones right there.

233
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Interesting.

234
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Well, understandable, really.

235
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Like understandable, right?

236
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Sentiments right now are shaped so much by news.

237
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And like you say, scam.

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And I think there's an untapped potential and missed opportunity here

239
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for Bitcoin culture to thrive for real and then to demonstrate how Bitcoiners live their lives

240
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because this is this is where I've learned over the years but it comes down to the life with

241
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Bitcoin and even if tomorrow Bitcoin goes to zero the life we have spent as Bitcoiners the life we

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have chosen differently because of Bitcoin and how it changed us changed people around us and

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change how we view money, our relationship with ourselves, with others, so that we can show up in

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the world with more love and hope. I think that's ultimately the point. People, some Bitcoiners are

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missing that point, and they're making it about stacking sets. And that's great. And it's great

246
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to build towards generational wealth. But I'm a little bit scared for that crowd too, because

247
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they think they're being low time preference.

248
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And some of them, they're thinking that I'm making a choice.

249
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I'm making a preference or even a sacrifice for future prosperity.

250
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But nobody is guaranteed a future.

251
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No, that's true.

252
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I fear, like I worry where I agree for them sometimes.

253
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I don't know what will happen to their life, to their mind,

254
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if something uncertain happens and then they need to face that and then to make peace with that. I

255
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think that's a lot. So I really wish. Yeah, go for it. Well, we've learned so much and that's part of

256
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it. Like today, I know so much more about money and so much more about like I am. I mean, I was

257
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taught that money is only good for what it buys. OK, I had a job when I was 14. I was paying for

258
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everything of my own. And so my work life started young and I've worked really hard. One thing I've

259
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known always is I'm always going to be able to figure out something if something was to happen.

260
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I am happy that they're in their 20s and 30s. And yeah, some of them are going at it in a crazy way,

261
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but at the same time, they're learning and paying attention to money. And I didn't get that lesson

262
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until I was much older.

263
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So I'm so happy that people will have an opportunity.

264
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And I feel like if something doesn't work out,

265
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well, they're teaching themselves so much about, hopefully,

266
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because that's the only thing I guess I would be worried about

267
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is not expanding your view beyond Bitcoin Twitter.

268
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You need to read yourself.

269
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You have to learn and you have to look at other things.

270
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You need to travel. You need to understand when you're what you're talking about, you know, because there's so many things that there's so much anger and just so much craziness at times that I feel like that's part of an experience.

271
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and uh what is it is that the dunning-kruger effect where you think well i could climb mount

272
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everest even though i've never done anything to try to train for that or anything else but yeah

273
00:21:11,282 --> 00:21:15,782
i could do that and it's just that lack of experience talking because you assume that you

274
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could but the older you get and the more life experience you get you realize like have a child

275
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see how that changes your life and your perspective because it changes everything

276
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for sure for sure i think we we say stay humble stack stats and and it really goes to everything

277
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that we can't assume we can't assume what we think will happen and we can't assume ourselves

278
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right and it's not about me being right i convince you i'm being right you have to listen to me

279
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because that that's like missing the point what do you think bitcoin culture or the bitcoin community

280
00:21:50,322 --> 00:21:53,582
reviews about people that other environment don't.

281
00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:06,322
Jeez, the community is interesting. I mean, I've made so many friends and listen, we're all

282
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still, you know, like no offense to El Salvador. I don't have any problem with it. But to think

283
00:22:12,762 --> 00:22:18,902
that people could come from all over the world and maybe gather there as Bitcoiners, we all come

284
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from different places. We all have different traditions, diets, family dynamics. And I think

285
00:22:26,162 --> 00:22:32,782
Bitcoiners sometimes miss that it's we're humans. You know, we're not like robots who are all about

286
00:22:32,782 --> 00:22:38,982
Bitcoin. So we're all the same and we all believe the same things. But at times it seems like that

287
00:22:38,982 --> 00:22:44,522
is what they want is for us all to believe the same thing. All of us to have the same viewpoint

288
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and same view of the future.

289
00:22:47,062 --> 00:22:48,602
And again, like that doesn't make sense.

290
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Like you don't want to only live in a world

291
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where everybody agrees with you.

292
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Because if you do, you are living in a cult.

293
00:22:55,662 --> 00:22:59,782
You know, you're not looking at both sides of anything

294
00:22:59,782 --> 00:23:01,382
and you have to, and you'll learn.

295
00:23:01,462 --> 00:23:03,122
Like you learn that as you get older,

296
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you'll hear like a story

297
00:23:05,742 --> 00:23:11,502
and you cannot imagine that that could be a decent one

298
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or maybe it wasn't as bad as that.

299
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And then you'll hear the other side of it.

300
00:23:15,682 --> 00:23:17,422
And you're like, oh, I see, I see.

301
00:23:17,602 --> 00:23:20,362
You know, so it's again, like it's that weighing.

302
00:23:20,562 --> 00:23:25,042
And I think Bitcoin can show people that there is fairness here.

303
00:23:25,622 --> 00:23:27,162
Okay, you can look at both.

304
00:23:27,382 --> 00:23:28,602
You can look at how Bitcoin works.

305
00:23:28,722 --> 00:23:29,382
It's fair.

306
00:23:29,562 --> 00:23:32,842
Okay, it has rules that it follows.

307
00:23:33,122 --> 00:23:39,382
And I definitely believed back at one point that most Bitcoiners had a lot of integrity.

308
00:23:39,382 --> 00:23:41,802
I have found that is not quite.

309
00:23:41,802 --> 00:23:50,422
Yeah. You know, there's people that, I don't know, they either want like a shot of ego or a something.

310
00:23:50,802 --> 00:23:53,402
And who I really appreciate are the ones that just are working.

311
00:23:53,862 --> 00:24:03,922
You know, the ones that are working towards something and or doing something and really trying to get the word out in a good way or helping those who can get it out in a good way.

312
00:24:03,922 --> 00:24:14,162
So it's like finding your space, finding your place in the space to contribute somehow would be better than trolling people on X.

313
00:24:14,742 --> 00:24:17,582
Yes. Where do you think that is coming from?

314
00:24:17,642 --> 00:24:28,582
Because I guess a lot of Bitcoiners today are like Freedom Maxis or they found Bitcoin through this deep sense of frustration of the fiat society.

315
00:24:28,722 --> 00:24:32,742
And then they were angry, they were traumatized and they were looking for solutions and they found Bitcoin.

316
00:24:32,742 --> 00:24:47,702
And then I see that there's so much anger and trauma that goes into the process to the point that they, the way that sometimes these negative emotions get poured out is subconscious and it's painful to watch.

317
00:24:47,842 --> 00:24:49,562
Like, you don't really have to go there.

318
00:24:49,802 --> 00:24:52,202
No, get some therapy, you know.

319
00:24:52,622 --> 00:24:55,742
Realize that if you're not happy in your life, what is the point?

320
00:24:56,362 --> 00:24:57,642
What is the point of all of it?

321
00:24:57,642 --> 00:25:07,922
If you're going to be a Bitcoin advocate, well, again, anger and upset don't help anybody or help the space or anything else.

322
00:25:08,162 --> 00:25:12,142
So figure out a way to contribute and then figure out a way to make your life happier.

323
00:25:12,362 --> 00:25:16,162
Because if you're not happy, then again, I don't know what you're trying to convince anybody for.

324
00:25:16,462 --> 00:25:18,282
I mean, what are you trying to convince them of?

325
00:25:18,402 --> 00:25:20,822
Okay, yes, Bitcoin is the best asset.

326
00:25:20,822 --> 00:25:26,002
It may take some time for things to shake out so that everything is good.

327
00:25:26,002 --> 00:25:32,482
But I wholeheartedly believe that. But I also believe that it isn't good to wrap your entire.

328
00:25:32,882 --> 00:25:36,782
Well, I mean, my brother and sister would tell you that my entire world is Bitcoin.

329
00:25:36,902 --> 00:25:38,462
I mean, look behind me. It's OK.

330
00:25:38,782 --> 00:25:44,262
But it's also made me realize that I have to do things for myself.

331
00:25:44,602 --> 00:25:53,802
Yes. And I have to create my own world and my own happiness and that I can't sit around and wait for anybody to do it for me.

332
00:25:53,802 --> 00:26:02,642
You know, it's not. And I think there's a lot of that. And there's a lot of, you know, looking at people who are creators in space.

333
00:26:02,642 --> 00:26:06,482
And I mean, like maybe the developers and the people who are writing code.

334
00:26:06,782 --> 00:26:10,902
And, you know, there's a lot of finger pointing of this and you should do this and you shouldn't do that.

335
00:26:11,042 --> 00:26:15,122
And this is, you know, so there's like interpretations of things as well.

336
00:26:15,202 --> 00:26:17,862
And it makes it difficult. And I'm not sure.

337
00:26:17,862 --> 00:26:24,362
I just feel like everyone needs to open their mind instead of the complete and utter yes or no.

338
00:26:24,722 --> 00:26:29,842
You know, everything is very yes or no, black and white, where I don't think it's that simple.

339
00:26:30,022 --> 00:26:32,022
I don't think anything about Bitcoin is that simple.

340
00:26:32,022 --> 00:26:33,402
Yeah, yeah, totally.

341
00:26:34,002 --> 00:26:36,842
And you've experienced this as a woman.

342
00:26:37,042 --> 00:26:38,082
You mentioned misogyny.

343
00:26:38,262 --> 00:26:39,722
It's an issue in this way.

344
00:26:39,842 --> 00:26:47,342
So were there any moments for you where being a woman felt incomplete, felt in Bitcoin?

345
00:26:47,342 --> 00:26:49,142
Yeah, there's been lots of that.

346
00:26:49,702 --> 00:26:51,822
There were any moments that felt very relevant.

347
00:26:52,342 --> 00:27:00,522
Okay, well, I will say that when I went to Unconfiscatable for the first time, that was in 2020.

348
00:27:00,842 --> 00:27:09,682
I went by myself, like I said, middle-aged white woman, alone, shows up at this conference, and I was really welcomed with open arms.

349
00:27:09,682 --> 00:27:19,022
And I am still in a group with three other guys, three guys who are still like very good friends of mine to this day that, you know, we chit chat and things.

350
00:27:19,282 --> 00:27:20,662
And I was very accepted.

351
00:27:21,282 --> 00:27:22,542
It felt really nice.

352
00:27:22,642 --> 00:27:24,682
And they were just great guys.

353
00:27:24,862 --> 00:27:27,622
And I was amazed by that.

354
00:27:27,802 --> 00:27:28,382
I really was.

355
00:27:28,642 --> 00:27:29,562
And it kept me in it.

356
00:27:29,642 --> 00:27:30,502
And it kept me in it.

357
00:27:30,562 --> 00:27:32,962
And it made me think, OK, there's good people here.

358
00:27:33,002 --> 00:27:34,222
And there definitely are.

359
00:27:34,562 --> 00:27:36,382
But there's also bad people here.

360
00:27:36,382 --> 00:27:41,002
Just because you are a Bitcoiner does not mean you are a nice and ethical person.

361
00:27:41,242 --> 00:27:47,962
And that is, if anyone takes away anything from this, that is the one thing you need to keep in your mind.

362
00:27:48,062 --> 00:27:51,582
Because like I was saying earlier, we all come from different places.

363
00:27:52,022 --> 00:27:53,962
We come from different everything.

364
00:27:54,362 --> 00:28:00,022
And just because we have Bitcoin in common doesn't mean that you don't have to watch your back.

365
00:28:00,742 --> 00:28:01,482
Yeah, big time.

366
00:28:01,482 --> 00:28:05,422
Have you noticed men and women responding differently to Bitcoin?

367
00:28:05,422 --> 00:28:07,102
Like in what way do you think?

368
00:28:07,202 --> 00:28:09,762
Because men and women are wired differently.

369
00:28:10,242 --> 00:28:11,002
And that's fact.

370
00:28:11,042 --> 00:28:12,922
Women are more empathetic.

371
00:28:13,382 --> 00:28:13,702
Right.

372
00:28:13,802 --> 00:28:19,242
So how, when it comes to understanding Bitcoin and approach Bitcoin community and industry,

373
00:28:19,422 --> 00:28:22,382
do you notice a different approach between men and women?

374
00:28:22,582 --> 00:28:22,762
Yeah.

375
00:28:23,022 --> 00:28:25,082
I mean, I think most men are talking to men.

376
00:28:26,042 --> 00:28:27,962
And women are also talking to men.

377
00:28:28,042 --> 00:28:30,822
I mean, we're talking to 90% men, no matter how you slice it.

378
00:28:31,782 --> 00:28:32,262
Okay.

379
00:28:32,262 --> 00:28:34,342
So I'm not a big bully.

380
00:28:34,342 --> 00:28:40,022
it's probably not going to come off well, but not really a big, like I'm a believer in wanting to

381
00:28:40,022 --> 00:28:44,502
hear people speak because of what they're talking about, not because you're a woman or a man,

382
00:28:44,942 --> 00:28:50,942
for sure, big time. And I think that I sometimes, sometimes I feel like, okay, we're going to have

383
00:28:50,942 --> 00:28:57,102
the ladies only brunch. And that's nice. But I really, I don't know. I don't want to segment

384
00:28:57,102 --> 00:29:02,842
the population. I feel like we should all be together in some way. And I know there are more

385
00:29:02,842 --> 00:29:12,182
men but maybe they need to recognize who's qualified more instead of just everything you

386
00:29:12,182 --> 00:29:19,762
know not looking at who does have a really amazing brain and talk the talk and understand and carry

387
00:29:19,762 --> 00:29:25,022
the conversation like bring those people on but see they would they're gonna get more hits on

388
00:29:25,022 --> 00:29:32,702
their podcast with a guy because guys want to watch guys talk about this why is that

389
00:29:32,702 --> 00:29:34,002
Why do you think is that?

390
00:29:34,262 --> 00:29:34,702
I don't know.

391
00:29:34,842 --> 00:29:35,662
There's something there.

392
00:29:36,802 --> 00:29:37,642
Yeah, there is.

393
00:29:38,082 --> 00:29:38,522
Yeah.

394
00:29:38,862 --> 00:29:39,602
Well, for sure.

395
00:29:40,262 --> 00:29:45,902
I mean, it's like I can talk about, I could go on and talk about collectibles and I could talk about this,

396
00:29:46,102 --> 00:29:50,802
but they don't want to hear my opinion on price or markets and things like that.

397
00:29:50,862 --> 00:29:54,682
It's like the trust level isn't equal.

398
00:29:55,782 --> 00:29:57,502
Yeah, I noticed that too.

399
00:29:58,062 --> 00:30:00,402
Do you think women have the same thing?

400
00:30:00,402 --> 00:30:06,162
Do women have want to listen more from women too, let's say?

401
00:30:06,302 --> 00:30:06,982
I don't think so.

402
00:30:07,122 --> 00:30:08,502
Not necessarily, right?

403
00:30:09,082 --> 00:30:09,782
Not necessarily.

404
00:30:10,022 --> 00:30:14,602
I mean, I think there's like plenty of women that I will listen to that I'm happy to listen to.

405
00:30:15,642 --> 00:30:23,382
But do you feel like women have this lean, natural lean as men that, oh, if that's a woman, I want to be listening to them.

406
00:30:23,962 --> 00:30:25,842
No, I don't think it's like that.

407
00:30:25,922 --> 00:30:27,922
I don't feel like it's like that, but it could be.

408
00:30:27,922 --> 00:30:30,982
But that's just not definitely not my feeling on it.

409
00:30:30,982 --> 00:30:34,902
For sure. I agree with that because I'm not someone who believe in gender.

410
00:30:35,102 --> 00:30:39,782
I feel like we connect with each other on a very fundamental basis.

411
00:30:39,782 --> 00:30:45,742
That's that's deeper layer than gender and deeper layer than money and even deeper layer than culture.

412
00:30:45,862 --> 00:30:48,722
Sometimes like on soul level, there's no gender.

413
00:30:48,862 --> 00:30:52,502
There's no nothing. We're all humans and race like whatever.

414
00:30:52,662 --> 00:30:54,862
Right. Like it's nonexistence on that level.

415
00:30:54,862 --> 00:31:16,862
So I agree with you there. But I do see how women and men are wired differently to the point that they approach the same thing in different manners. And in the past, we've talked to Bitcoin recruiters saying that like women candidates would wait until they have they could do 100% of the job description to apply versus the demand would be applying if they feel 60%, they will feel confident.

416
00:31:16,862 --> 00:31:27,342
And then like you were saying, how you quietly listen for four years before you start talking about Bitcoin or before you really start to consider yourself something in the community.

417
00:31:27,342 --> 00:31:30,762
But I bet that time frame for men is probably a little bit shorter.

418
00:31:31,542 --> 00:31:31,982
Probably.

419
00:31:33,462 --> 00:31:38,682
So in 2021, I started volunteering at different events.

420
00:31:38,842 --> 00:31:41,642
And when I showed up at Unconfiscatable, they're like, here, do this.

421
00:31:41,822 --> 00:31:43,042
And I'm like, OK, OK, all right.

422
00:31:43,042 --> 00:31:45,862
So and I come from an event, an events background.

423
00:31:46,082 --> 00:31:47,622
It's what my businesses have been.

424
00:31:48,142 --> 00:31:50,242
And so I figured this is how I can contribute.

425
00:31:51,322 --> 00:31:53,142
And this is how I'll learn more.

426
00:31:53,602 --> 00:31:59,282
And I'll be able to, you know, absorb more just by being there and being a part of it.

427
00:31:59,682 --> 00:32:02,522
So I've done that since 2021 also.

428
00:32:03,282 --> 00:32:07,622
So it's a lot of bringing, bringing people together, creating.

429
00:32:07,622 --> 00:32:16,242
And it seems like your line of work kind of goes along the vein of how you personally got familiarized with Bitcoin too.

430
00:32:16,682 --> 00:32:22,282
Do you, and over all these years, and Bitcoin is a space that value a lot about independence.

431
00:32:22,842 --> 00:32:27,422
Independence, sovereignty, you have to kind of like do your own thing, right?

432
00:32:27,502 --> 00:32:28,842
Like don't trust, verify.

433
00:32:29,282 --> 00:32:35,062
And it emphasizes on a lot of sovereignty related topics and independence.

434
00:32:35,062 --> 00:32:35,842
Let me say this.

435
00:32:35,842 --> 00:32:43,222
there is a lot of trusting going on a lot okay a lot of trusting without verifying is going on

436
00:32:43,222 --> 00:32:50,302
all the time period that's true that's true do you what how do you find it contradicting

437
00:32:50,302 --> 00:32:56,502
for the idea of collaboration and sovereignty and trust like how do you kind of explain the

438
00:32:56,502 --> 00:33:16,244
gap between what we say and what we do i don i stick to my own values on it you know i try to be the person who you know I trying to emulate a Bitcoin a Bitcoiner a Bitcoin standard I don know how you what you want to call it but you know I tried to be ethical and tried to

439
00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:23,064
help. And it's like, it's a decentralized platform where it needs that. Okay. We're not,

440
00:33:23,404 --> 00:33:29,244
we're not going to get anywhere unless we do come together on things. And then, but then I find that

441
00:33:29,244 --> 00:33:36,124
there's just a lot of competition and a lot of like suddenly like real world things pop up.

442
00:33:36,124 --> 00:33:44,644
Things that you don't expect from someone who claims to be a sovereign, free, whatever individual.

443
00:33:44,964 --> 00:33:49,044
You find that humans are humans and sometimes that's not a great thing.

444
00:33:49,544 --> 00:33:54,284
Sometimes it's, you know, the human behavior and the human aspect of it.

445
00:33:54,284 --> 00:34:01,404
yeah there's all kinds of things that I've seen that are definitely you know you think well if

446
00:34:01,404 --> 00:34:07,324
they're doing this well they must do this or they must know blah blah blah and they don't find out

447
00:34:07,324 --> 00:34:13,764
like oh my god so I've seen this more than a couple of times and kind of shocking and when it happens

448
00:34:13,764 --> 00:34:18,824
it's a little disheartening as well and it makes you want to stick with the people that you know

449
00:34:18,824 --> 00:34:26,784
really well and be very cautious about who you let in because yeah it happens so it's just something

450
00:34:26,784 --> 00:34:33,044
that I'm I'm saying because I feel like people when you're in that euphoric stage and everything's

451
00:34:33,044 --> 00:34:38,504
great well you will let things happen or let people in that maybe you shouldn't and like this

452
00:34:38,504 --> 00:34:43,844
is the time where the price is down where everybody does get cranky and it's like this is the time

453
00:34:43,844 --> 00:34:48,804
where you work harder. You work harder during this time and you pay attention to what's going

454
00:34:48,804 --> 00:34:54,944
on around you. The people that are still here and that are still active are people to usually pay

455
00:34:54,944 --> 00:35:01,984
attention to. Interesting. People go on, you know, take some breaks, but you'll see people disappear

456
00:35:01,984 --> 00:35:07,464
for long periods of time and then they'll show up again and tell you what to do. It's kind of weird,

457
00:35:07,464 --> 00:35:14,724
you know interesting for sure i've definitely agree with that for the sense of discernment

458
00:35:14,724 --> 00:35:20,664
that's required increasingly in the space where interest in general because even outside of the

459
00:35:20,664 --> 00:35:28,144
bitcoin context there's so so much voice like so many voices there around us from far close media

460
00:35:28,144 --> 00:35:35,464
where family like peer pressure where everybody panicking about what's next and and if we allow

461
00:35:35,464 --> 00:35:43,244
if we listen to that and lean into these anger or fear or anxiety, then we will get carried away

462
00:35:43,244 --> 00:35:50,564
with those things and not be able to tell what is signal and what is noise. You just said you

463
00:35:50,564 --> 00:35:55,924
had this specialty of knowing who to listen to. Tell me more about that. I've always been good

464
00:35:55,924 --> 00:36:01,864
at, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. My sister's really good at it too. And she plays

465
00:36:01,864 --> 00:36:07,404
poker. She has her own dance studio, but she also plays professional poker. I mean, she's

466
00:36:07,404 --> 00:36:13,884
placed in, you know, WSOP tournaments. And anyway, she has just gotten herself. Now,

467
00:36:14,004 --> 00:36:19,784
she's just like me. She has been doing this. She has three little girls. She goes to Vegas when

468
00:36:19,784 --> 00:36:25,044
she has time, which, you know, isn't that often. But I told her, I'm like, you find the best

469
00:36:25,044 --> 00:36:30,464
players, you find the people that you like the most and that are the smartest and stick with

470
00:36:30,464 --> 00:36:37,924
them. You know, just insert yourself at every possible opportunity. And then this is how you

471
00:36:37,924 --> 00:36:42,804
will learn. And you'll you'll find out like you start to find out from these people and you once

472
00:36:42,804 --> 00:36:47,484
you make friends and you can trust that person. Well, now you're going to listen to who they like

473
00:36:47,484 --> 00:36:52,944
to listen to. So it's a process, you know, it takes time. But you've got to find like, OK,

474
00:36:52,984 --> 00:36:57,384
who are the people who believe like I do? And then where are they getting their information from?

475
00:36:57,384 --> 00:37:19,364
Who do they trust? And then obviously you have to put your own judgment in there. But once you feel solid enough with somebody, okay. And then you can kind of look at what your favorites are across the board. Like Bob, Bob Burnett. He, I will use him as one of my favorite examples because I didn't know, I didn't meet him until I think 2022.

476
00:37:19,364 --> 00:37:23,764
And when I learned about his background, it just hit me like a hammer.

477
00:37:24,304 --> 00:37:26,724
Like, oh my God, this is who we need in the space.

478
00:37:26,864 --> 00:37:33,584
And he was, he worked on the world's first laptop in the 80s, like late 80s with Zenith,

479
00:37:33,644 --> 00:37:37,724
who was creating them for, I want to say it was like an order for the U.S. Army.

480
00:37:38,044 --> 00:37:39,404
And they didn't call them laptops.

481
00:37:39,744 --> 00:37:43,264
They called them like clamshells or hard shell things.

482
00:37:43,264 --> 00:37:45,524
That kind of looked like a shell if you think about it.

483
00:37:45,624 --> 00:37:46,224
Yeah, yeah, it does.

484
00:37:46,624 --> 00:37:48,724
So I don't think they called them laptops then.

485
00:37:48,724 --> 00:37:57,064
But he went on to work with Gateway Computers and was part of the team that took them public and was their CTO.

486
00:37:57,464 --> 00:38:00,284
And this is the time where the Internet came.

487
00:38:00,744 --> 00:38:04,904
People did not believe that they were going to need a home computer.

488
00:38:05,384 --> 00:38:07,704
Like, it's just like no one thinks they need Bitcoin.

489
00:38:07,984 --> 00:38:09,864
No one's going to need that, but they did.

490
00:38:10,044 --> 00:38:16,964
So he's like one of the few people in the space that experienced that adoption curve of the Internet and of the PC.

491
00:38:16,964 --> 00:38:25,384
And he understands from that perspective what's going on here, okay, and how this adoption is going on.

492
00:38:25,684 --> 00:38:33,684
So once I understood that about him and what his background, what his experience was, I realized there's no one else in the space that has it.

493
00:38:33,964 --> 00:38:34,244
No one.

494
00:38:34,544 --> 00:38:35,344
Not like him.

495
00:38:35,524 --> 00:38:39,244
So, you know, he has the technical knowledge.

496
00:38:39,524 --> 00:38:42,324
He has contacts like you wouldn't believe.

497
00:38:42,324 --> 00:38:48,884
he is a part of things like groups that have to do with quantum physics and just like he has his eye

498
00:38:48,884 --> 00:38:54,484
on everything so the way i see it is is that if bitcoin is going to crash bob's going to be the

499
00:38:54,484 --> 00:38:59,864
first one to know and i want to make sure that i'm on his text list so that if it's going down

500
00:38:59,864 --> 00:39:06,404
bob is going to know it so like that's the kind of way like understanding that at that time in life

501
00:39:06,404 --> 00:39:13,504
I was an early eBay seller and I was a gateway user and I was waiting for that cow spotted box

502
00:39:13,504 --> 00:39:20,444
to show up with my computer on it and like that my first laptop was a gateway and to think that Bob

503
00:39:20,444 --> 00:39:30,664
was in South Dakota and then in San Diego working on this blows my mind like living legend

504
00:39:30,664 --> 00:39:37,844
total legend and then the part that you don't even think about is taking that company public

505
00:39:37,844 --> 00:39:44,884
what he learned about taking companies public was it was another like hit over the head for me and

506
00:39:44,884 --> 00:39:50,744
i realized like these publicly traded mining companies they're not in it for bitcoin they're

507
00:39:50,744 --> 00:39:55,704
in it for the shareholders they're not the protectors of the bitcoin you know base layer

508
00:39:55,704 --> 00:39:56,904
They're public companies.

509
00:39:57,184 --> 00:39:59,004
That's not what their obligation is to.

510
00:39:59,304 --> 00:40:00,144
It's not to Bitcoin.

511
00:40:00,444 --> 00:40:03,484
And so that has concerned me ever since I learned it.

512
00:40:04,144 --> 00:40:09,424
But I'll say the one thing about publicly traded companies is that they have money.

513
00:40:10,024 --> 00:40:11,284
They have funds to keep going.

514
00:40:11,724 --> 00:40:17,724
And they can borrow and borrow and borrow off of that and continue on and go in a different direction if they want.

515
00:40:17,864 --> 00:40:20,884
Where I wasn't sure what was going to happen to them at first.

516
00:40:21,304 --> 00:40:22,624
When I learned all of this.

517
00:40:22,624 --> 00:40:26,284
and now I'm learning pay attention because everything takes longer than you think it will

518
00:40:26,284 --> 00:40:32,364
yeah wow there's a lot of calm calmness and patience that I'm sensing from you because

519
00:40:32,364 --> 00:40:39,524
it's like if you if you come to the space with knowledge and context maybe some context mostly

520
00:40:39,524 --> 00:40:44,864
knowledge or economics or whatever and then you find Bitcoin you're like oh wow I found the sound

521
00:40:44,864 --> 00:40:50,704
money and and I'm I'm set I just need to success and stay humble and I'm all good and then like

522
00:40:50,704 --> 00:40:52,664
Like you said, real life happens, right?

523
00:40:52,744 --> 00:40:55,604
You have the Bitcoin culture shift.

524
00:40:55,684 --> 00:40:59,604
You have your personal life change, like life stages start to change.

525
00:40:59,704 --> 00:41:01,304
Maybe you have a kid, maybe you have a wife now.

526
00:41:01,604 --> 00:41:02,984
Like everything changes.

527
00:41:03,144 --> 00:41:10,024
And when those things happen together, it really challenges us as humans, not just as Bitcoiners.

528
00:41:10,364 --> 00:41:10,884
Right.

529
00:41:11,044 --> 00:41:13,824
And how do you show up as a person?

530
00:41:13,824 --> 00:41:15,564
And that's the test.

531
00:41:15,564 --> 00:41:24,424
And Bitcoin in that equation is a tool that help you be the better person that you could be or be the person you're destined to be.

532
00:41:24,664 --> 00:41:26,664
But that's the means to an end.

533
00:41:26,824 --> 00:41:32,484
And if you feel like you found Bitcoin and found the answer, then I worry for you.

534
00:41:32,644 --> 00:41:40,024
I mean, the world is really coming after us for those of whom who are not aligned internally.

535
00:41:40,024 --> 00:41:46,784
And I think that test is specifically severe for Bitcoiners because we claim to be sovereign.

536
00:41:50,424 --> 00:41:51,984
There is a lot of claim.

537
00:41:52,364 --> 00:41:54,624
And I think it's not that simple.

538
00:41:54,904 --> 00:41:58,924
I mean, at this point, it's hard to be completely sovereign.

539
00:41:59,184 --> 00:42:01,244
And like, let's say you're getting orders from Amazon.

540
00:42:01,824 --> 00:42:02,604
You're not sovereign.

541
00:42:02,864 --> 00:42:03,564
Yeah, yeah.

542
00:42:03,564 --> 00:42:09,924
Okay, so then my question is, what's your thought on this whole purity complex that we seem to see?

543
00:42:10,024 --> 00:42:16,324
a little bit in Bitcoin of how should we hold ourselves accountable? I don't think we have to.

544
00:42:16,604 --> 00:42:21,464
I think we can be who we are. I mean, if there's this group of people and they want to be like that

545
00:42:21,464 --> 00:42:26,504
and they think that that proves some kind of point, well, good for them. I just know that's

546
00:42:26,504 --> 00:42:33,484
never going to be me. I don't mean never, but it isn't right now. I see being that way. First of

547
00:42:33,484 --> 00:42:39,624
all, you've got to have the means, okay? And there are, you know, I am not a wealthy Bitcoiner.

548
00:42:40,024 --> 00:42:41,384
I've worked very hard.

549
00:42:41,544 --> 00:42:46,244
I mean, from the pandemic, like I was out of business for two and a half years.

550
00:42:46,244 --> 00:42:51,744
So I have had to work hard to, you know, continue on and to be a part of it.

551
00:42:52,424 --> 00:42:54,904
Can you survive and save and have?

552
00:42:55,044 --> 00:42:59,724
But one thing I can say that I never could say before was that today I have savings.

553
00:43:00,064 --> 00:43:01,824
You know, it am.

554
00:43:02,004 --> 00:43:07,124
And so I feel like I said, I feel like this is something that anyone can take part in.

555
00:43:07,124 --> 00:43:13,904
so a purity test is it's like what is the purity test i mean how do we know that you're not full

556
00:43:13,904 --> 00:43:19,724
of shit and you most likely are if you're preparing to be all that you most likely are i mean listen

557
00:43:19,724 --> 00:43:24,644
i have heard just just again i'm gonna say it if you're getting packages from amazon you're not

558
00:43:24,644 --> 00:43:30,564
any of the things that you're claiming to be though and it's just that no one has more info

559
00:43:30,564 --> 00:43:36,904
on you no one is more info on humans in this country than amazon your bank doesn't have as

560
00:43:36,904 --> 00:43:42,084
much info. And until we're all in a different place from that, talk to me then. We're just not

561
00:43:42,084 --> 00:43:48,304
there yet. And things can take longer than we think. And after 17 years, I would like to think

562
00:43:48,304 --> 00:43:53,864
that we can at least say that, you know, listen, in 17 years, stop for a minute and do a Google

563
00:43:53,864 --> 00:44:00,484
search or find an expert instead of listening to the guy on TMZ for your Bitcoin information.

564
00:44:00,944 --> 00:44:04,264
And so that's something that's been on my mind the last couple of weeks is just like,

565
00:44:04,264 --> 00:44:10,844
we got to get some people's faces out there, you know, to talk about this and get called on

566
00:44:10,844 --> 00:44:16,864
when you need an expert. Yeah. Because it is such a negative connotation. Otherwise,

567
00:44:16,864 --> 00:44:21,984
you know, they either it's like they say the word Bitcoin with contempt or confusion. No in between.

568
00:44:22,684 --> 00:44:28,864
Interesting. They either say Bitcoin with contempt or confusion. Wow. That's a powerful line.

569
00:44:28,864 --> 00:44:54,604
That's true. That's true. And if you think about it, like our touch points as individuals of Bitcoin, it comes down to each time we see Bitcoin in the news, or each time we see a Bitcoin sign somewhere, or each time we overhear someone eavesdropping on someone having a Bitcoin conversation at a coffee shop, which increasingly so I'm starting to hear people talking about Bitcoin in different contexts at coffee shops or just randomly.

570
00:44:54,604 --> 00:44:58,324
So there's definitely the culture shifting.

571
00:44:58,604 --> 00:45:07,744
I really appreciate you for the calmness and then the peace that you already seem to have compared to a lot of Bitcoiners in space.

572
00:45:07,744 --> 00:45:10,304
Because there's no fear from you.

573
00:45:10,444 --> 00:45:11,824
There's not much anger.

574
00:45:12,084 --> 00:45:13,904
There's not much like I can't.

575
00:45:14,044 --> 00:45:15,684
You are really big.

576
00:45:15,684 --> 00:45:16,744
I'm lucky to be here.

577
00:45:17,384 --> 00:45:17,624
Right.

578
00:45:17,784 --> 00:45:22,904
I'm really lucky to be here and lucky that I'm learning what I've learned.

579
00:45:22,904 --> 00:45:27,304
I mean, I can call Bob Burnett and Larry Lippard friends.

580
00:45:27,484 --> 00:45:28,804
How crazy is that?

581
00:45:29,024 --> 00:45:35,444
I mean, how crazy is that, that I can talk to them and that they talk to me and respect me?

582
00:45:35,704 --> 00:45:39,304
And Gary, Gary Leland is one of my very best friends, I mean, in the space.

583
00:45:39,464 --> 00:45:41,524
And I've learned so much from him.

584
00:45:42,224 --> 00:45:47,264
And, you know, one of the things I've learned from him is do what you say you're going to do.

585
00:45:47,264 --> 00:45:50,624
And like once I called him, I don't know, I must have been cranky or something.

586
00:45:50,624 --> 00:45:53,784
And I was like, I just don't feel I'm just not in the mood.

587
00:45:53,824 --> 00:45:54,944
And he's like, what are you?

588
00:45:55,344 --> 00:45:56,244
What are you, 14?

589
00:45:56,564 --> 00:45:57,164
Suck it up.

590
00:45:57,224 --> 00:45:58,724
He's like, suck it up and get going.

591
00:45:58,964 --> 00:45:59,584
Make it happen.

592
00:45:59,844 --> 00:46:00,884
I'm like, oh, shit, you're right.

593
00:46:01,064 --> 00:46:01,484
Thank you.

594
00:46:01,804 --> 00:46:08,984
And now he really does inspire me that way because he's not, you know, that's how he makes things happen.

595
00:46:08,984 --> 00:46:17,184
And I realized that there's just so many things to learn from people who are successful.

596
00:46:17,184 --> 00:46:21,424
And they had all three of these guys had great fiat careers.

597
00:46:21,684 --> 00:46:24,484
They didn't need Bitcoin, none of them, but they found it.

598
00:46:24,704 --> 00:46:25,684
They understand it.

599
00:46:25,844 --> 00:46:31,304
And I feel like those are the kind of people that we need speaking, you know, in the space

600
00:46:31,304 --> 00:46:32,504
and talking to people.

601
00:46:33,824 --> 00:46:39,544
We need translators because it's great that we hang out in our bubble and go to the conference

602
00:46:39,544 --> 00:46:41,544
and have a blast of everyone.

603
00:46:41,964 --> 00:46:42,404
Absolutely.

604
00:46:42,404 --> 00:46:44,424
What is the responsibility?

605
00:46:44,744 --> 00:46:50,964
What is the collective responsibility we have as Bitcoiners when it comes to the world out there?

606
00:46:51,144 --> 00:46:55,524
The people that don't know Bitcoin yet but needed it the most?

607
00:46:55,944 --> 00:47:03,424
Because if we think about it, most of the Bitcoiners right now, they're either into technology or finance, still, still economics.

608
00:47:04,044 --> 00:47:06,444
And people complain, oh, there's not enough women in Bitcoin.

609
00:47:06,544 --> 00:47:07,264
There's not enough this.

610
00:47:07,264 --> 00:47:19,324
But if our cohort of content and if our focus on Bitcoin is just that, then you can't blame the mass public for thinking Bitcoin is just that.

611
00:47:19,564 --> 00:47:26,244
Because we are supposed to know and we're supposed to create content that represent Bitcoin in different lines like we experience.

612
00:47:26,244 --> 00:47:38,424
So this is kind of where I'm kind of pivoting into different segments and different industries wanting to create, wanting to make music, but not Bitcoin songs, but love songs.

613
00:47:38,544 --> 00:47:41,444
Because I write love songs and I don't mention Bitcoin in it.

614
00:47:41,544 --> 00:47:45,264
And it's really about can we connect people through love?

615
00:47:45,264 --> 00:47:56,464
And what I've realized is that, yes, money is super base layer, but being human and love is more base layer than money.

616
00:47:56,624 --> 00:48:06,344
Everybody right now is so angry and traumatized from history, from fear society, from just generational trauma that trickled down to us.

617
00:48:06,364 --> 00:48:09,184
And every single one of us is like that.

618
00:48:09,304 --> 00:48:10,504
And what now?

619
00:48:10,564 --> 00:48:14,344
Even if we have Bitcoin, then the real challenge will just start then.

620
00:48:14,344 --> 00:48:22,204
Now you have the financial side of the things figured out, hopefully, where you're on your way to saving towards someone.

621
00:48:22,624 --> 00:48:24,344
What do you do with yourself?

622
00:48:25,304 --> 00:48:28,264
What do you do with your relationship, with your children?

623
00:48:28,804 --> 00:48:38,124
And how many Bitcoiners who are doing the proof of work now can stand having seven days in a row where they don't have to work?

624
00:48:38,124 --> 00:48:45,484
like because i'm facing that myself and i'm i'm sensing this restlessness in me that is making

625
00:48:45,484 --> 00:48:51,884
me lose hair is making me feel really stressed and and i feel anxious of i could be doing more i

626
00:48:51,884 --> 00:48:57,484
could be proof of working on this proof of working on that and then i i stressed out about it and

627
00:48:57,484 --> 00:49:06,284
then i i think a lot of bitcoin would be on the same same trajectory right for sure yeah especially

628
00:49:06,284 --> 00:49:12,844
we've come this far through proof of work and we know the heart the blood and sweat that goes into

629
00:49:12,844 --> 00:49:20,624
this for me there's still the sense of fear a little bit that's coming out wanting me to to be

630
00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:28,864
doing things but i'm really recently been practicing purpose over duty and and grace over

631
00:49:28,864 --> 00:49:35,404
grind this is something i've been practicing have to let go some of the values that i have that i

632
00:49:35,404 --> 00:49:38,364
project onto myself, self-induced.

633
00:49:38,364 --> 00:49:53,146
So do you feel like over the years that you have to let part of you go somehow I do and I have I gotten much more independent Yeah something about Bitcoin I just I don know how to explain it

634
00:49:53,666 --> 00:49:55,306
Okay, well, the first thing I'm going to say is

635
00:49:55,306 --> 00:49:57,186
you got to give yourself a break, okay?

636
00:49:57,346 --> 00:49:58,806
Because we're all humans,

637
00:49:58,806 --> 00:50:02,906
and we're not always going to be doing proof of work.

638
00:50:02,906 --> 00:50:07,066
You know, there's times to stop and sit outside

639
00:50:07,066 --> 00:50:09,666
and enjoy yourself a little bit.

640
00:50:09,666 --> 00:50:15,386
and definitely spend that time, you know, find something that you love to do.

641
00:50:15,626 --> 00:50:15,986
Yeah.

642
00:50:16,126 --> 00:50:19,526
And when you're feeling like, I don't know what I'm going to do, well, guess what?

643
00:50:19,526 --> 00:50:24,486
You could paint, you could do something while you're figuring that out.

644
00:50:24,886 --> 00:50:25,826
What is the best strategy?

645
00:50:25,986 --> 00:50:28,406
How can I do this job perfect?

646
00:50:28,646 --> 00:50:29,506
We're the best.

647
00:50:29,626 --> 00:50:32,406
And I can't seem to let go of that.

648
00:50:32,606 --> 00:50:37,826
So what are you, does your brain go faster at night or in the morning?

649
00:50:37,826 --> 00:50:43,446
Like, when are you finding your mind racing and kind of like telling you what to do?

650
00:50:43,446 --> 00:50:43,826
Morning.

651
00:50:44,566 --> 00:50:44,826
Okay.

652
00:50:45,046 --> 00:50:47,886
So I have a lot of the same kinds of feelings.

653
00:50:48,506 --> 00:50:58,966
One thing that I learned, well, I used to wake up and immediately start to think of every single possible thing I needed to do, including brushing my teeth, my floss, and all these things.

654
00:50:59,386 --> 00:51:07,546
So I learned this trick where you find a song, a song that doesn't necessarily, isn't maybe your taste or it's different.

655
00:51:07,546 --> 00:51:12,786
It's not something you're listening to every day, but you find a song and you learn it.

656
00:51:13,066 --> 00:51:16,726
And the minute you wake up, your eyes wake up, you start to sing that song.

657
00:51:16,926 --> 00:51:17,066
Okay.

658
00:51:17,346 --> 00:51:17,686
Okay.

659
00:51:18,026 --> 00:51:19,326
It distracts you.

660
00:51:19,566 --> 00:51:23,346
So, you know, I will start to sing it even, you know, just out loud.

661
00:51:25,126 --> 00:51:29,426
And I get up and I don't touch my phone either.

662
00:51:29,946 --> 00:51:30,106
Okay.

663
00:51:30,226 --> 00:51:30,946
No phone.

664
00:51:31,026 --> 00:51:32,866
And you do your bathroom things.

665
00:51:32,866 --> 00:51:33,886
You make coffee.

666
00:51:34,286 --> 00:51:35,626
You do all of that.

667
00:51:35,826 --> 00:51:36,966
You get yourself.

668
00:51:36,966 --> 00:51:40,046
So you make your bed, open the windows, whatever it is you need to do.

669
00:51:40,106 --> 00:51:42,266
And you do all of that without your phone.

670
00:51:42,426 --> 00:51:51,786
So the point of it is not to pick up your phone first thing, not to start ruminating different ideas and starting to frustrate yourself immediately.

671
00:51:52,246 --> 00:51:59,766
So you're getting home and you're feeling peaceful because you're singing and you're doing those things that are routine.

672
00:52:00,106 --> 00:52:01,926
And that's where you're giving your brain a break.

673
00:52:02,506 --> 00:52:02,986
Okay.

674
00:52:02,986 --> 00:52:05,486
When you're ready, you know, your coffee's made.

675
00:52:05,606 --> 00:52:06,806
You can get your phone.

676
00:52:06,966 --> 00:52:12,086
You know, you've got your office area set up and you sit down and then go ahead.

677
00:52:12,306 --> 00:52:17,246
But just take that, even if it doesn't even need to be more than 15 minutes at the max,

678
00:52:17,286 --> 00:52:20,486
like of just leaving the phone, getting those things done.

679
00:52:21,006 --> 00:52:22,546
You know, I put my contacts in.

680
00:52:22,666 --> 00:52:26,126
I even try to sit in the sun for a few minutes and I'll bring my phone with me.

681
00:52:26,186 --> 00:52:31,746
But like I will sit down outside for a little bit and try to chill before I do something,

682
00:52:32,006 --> 00:52:34,246
you know, before I go into what I'm going to do.

683
00:52:34,246 --> 00:52:40,946
And so, but it's the song, the first thing that's that song distraction that gets me moving.

684
00:52:41,426 --> 00:52:43,346
Interesting. That's a really good trick.

685
00:52:43,826 --> 00:52:44,606
I'm going to try that.

686
00:52:45,406 --> 00:52:49,626
Find a singer or somebody that, you know, you don't normally listen to.

687
00:52:49,706 --> 00:52:57,786
Like somebody told me about a song and it was kind of a song about where she's talking in the song about not being the things that everybody's told her that she is.

688
00:52:57,786 --> 00:53:03,906
and so it's like to me it resonated with me I'm like oh this is good but it isn't something I'm

689
00:53:03,906 --> 00:53:08,906
going to hear on the radio so it's that song has one purpose for me and that is getting me out of

690
00:53:08,906 --> 00:53:15,766
bed and making me think a little bit about how being grateful how important that is like another

691
00:53:15,766 --> 00:53:23,146
trick is it's the gratefulness trick when you're in the shower think about how amazing it is that

692
00:53:23,146 --> 00:53:31,966
you have hot water yeah like clean hot water just rushing over you and really feel like how amazing

693
00:53:31,966 --> 00:53:40,206
that is yeah like that will get you like give you this burst of of peace and happiness and just like

694
00:53:40,206 --> 00:53:45,046
when you really realize how lucky we are to have that I mean there are people that have never had

695
00:53:45,046 --> 00:53:51,026
that in their lives so to like take that minute in the shower to just go wow am I lucky and grateful

696
00:53:52,026 --> 00:53:53,106
Well, yeah, always.

697
00:53:53,826 --> 00:53:57,586
Gratefulness is always a good, good approach to everything.

698
00:53:57,826 --> 00:53:59,206
You've got to really feel it.

699
00:53:59,626 --> 00:54:02,326
You have to really think about it and really.

700
00:54:02,946 --> 00:54:03,926
And that's what I was taught.

701
00:54:03,926 --> 00:54:09,166
Like the way I learned that was the original lesson had to do with lemons.

702
00:54:09,526 --> 00:54:12,766
And we were taught to pretend you have a lemon, cut it in half.

703
00:54:13,366 --> 00:54:14,046
It's cold.

704
00:54:14,326 --> 00:54:16,006
It's wet in your hands.

705
00:54:16,046 --> 00:54:17,326
And you're feeling that.

706
00:54:17,546 --> 00:54:20,706
Now, imagine putting it up to your mouth and now your mouth's watering.

707
00:54:21,026 --> 00:54:22,746
So like you're really feeling that.

708
00:54:22,926 --> 00:54:25,066
That's how you have to feel about being grateful.

709
00:54:25,726 --> 00:54:26,126
Yes.

710
00:54:26,626 --> 00:54:26,806
Yes.

711
00:54:26,946 --> 00:54:28,466
Seriously, you didn't feel it.

712
00:54:28,706 --> 00:54:32,326
That's how we manifest for our brighter future too.

713
00:54:32,406 --> 00:54:34,426
It's really the sensation of it.

714
00:54:34,426 --> 00:54:38,606
And this is how we really, as humans, need to lean into our emotions,

715
00:54:38,866 --> 00:54:42,926
but not let it destruct us.

716
00:54:43,066 --> 00:54:48,466
But we need to trust more on our emotions and instinct because we already know.

717
00:54:48,466 --> 00:54:55,486
And then it oftentimes comes back to, do you have the gut to listen to yourself sometimes?

718
00:54:56,206 --> 00:55:00,646
So over the years, when it comes to perspective and authority,

719
00:55:00,986 --> 00:55:04,966
what have you noticed yourself softened over time?

720
00:55:05,206 --> 00:55:10,946
And do you feel like there's something about you that have been firm, more firm about over time?

721
00:55:11,286 --> 00:55:13,406
Yeah, I'm not as trusting as I was.

722
00:55:13,406 --> 00:55:23,966
when I say that I mean I am empathetic so I do have a tendency to draw people who sense that

723
00:55:23,966 --> 00:55:29,486
and will take advantage of that so I'm not as trusting as I once was and I've put some boundaries

724
00:55:29,486 --> 00:55:36,626
down for that kind of a thing so that's one thing that I wish I would have done in my 30s you can't

725
00:55:36,626 --> 00:55:42,966
be open to everything and you can't if something is bothering you you have to pay attention you know

726
00:55:42,966 --> 00:55:48,766
bring it up talk to somebody about it it may not be anything but it might be something big and you

727
00:55:48,766 --> 00:55:54,046
don't want to miss it if it's something big so at least bring it up to somebody you know that you

728
00:55:54,046 --> 00:55:58,506
feel comfortable bringing it up to you know who isn't going to judge you if you still decide you're

729
00:55:58,506 --> 00:56:05,726
going to do it but you know just talk to somebody about it and if it's still on your mind after you

730
00:56:05,726 --> 00:56:09,766
do that well then you know you have to pay attention because something's not right even

731
00:56:09,766 --> 00:56:14,806
though you want it to be right. And that's the problem is that we all really want to do something.

732
00:56:14,806 --> 00:56:21,186
And so when you get opportunities to do things, you're going to, that's your first thought. Like,

733
00:56:21,226 --> 00:56:26,226
wow, someone finally recognizes that I can do something and that feels good. So you might ignore

734
00:56:26,226 --> 00:56:31,206
that there are some other signs that maybe aren't quite there. Like, wait, why are they asking me to

735
00:56:31,206 --> 00:56:38,626
do this? So it's like asking both sides of that question. That's such a good advice. Because

736
00:56:38,626 --> 00:56:46,546
sometimes in is it's through the process of talking about it ourselves we organize ourselves

737
00:56:48,066 --> 00:56:54,306
i'm like this particularly i think through speaking so when i'm talking the words come

738
00:56:54,306 --> 00:57:02,706
out first and i'm really hearing myself so i have to talk it out with someone and it's tremendous

739
00:57:02,706 --> 00:57:08,306
help because if you're if the partner you're picking in that process is knows you enough and

740
00:57:08,306 --> 00:57:15,046
And then it's just, then they catch you when you start to say certain things coming from yourself.

741
00:57:15,046 --> 00:57:16,546
Like, why do you say that?

742
00:57:16,666 --> 00:57:17,666
Like, what does that mean?

743
00:57:17,766 --> 00:57:18,826
You just said that.

744
00:57:18,986 --> 00:57:23,186
And it says something about you already, the fact that you say it this way.

745
00:57:23,266 --> 00:57:25,686
And then it's already giving you so much information.

746
00:57:25,846 --> 00:57:28,546
And you're like, oh, wow, you're right.

747
00:57:28,886 --> 00:57:29,386
I do.

748
00:57:29,806 --> 00:57:31,686
Or I even say a word.

749
00:57:32,086 --> 00:57:37,086
If I'm afraid to tell you what I'm going to tell you, well, then that tells me something.

750
00:57:37,406 --> 00:57:37,546
Yes.

751
00:57:37,546 --> 00:57:44,166
and see that's something i didn't catch right away yes and thought well i'm gonna say it anyway

752
00:57:44,166 --> 00:57:51,086
because maybe i'm wrong maybe it's not like that but nine times it is see the fact that you're like

753
00:57:51,086 --> 00:57:56,646
i'm already feeling uncomfortable that's why i'm even gonna go even more gonna go there and

754
00:57:56,646 --> 00:58:03,186
that's humility and honesty and you can't because otherwise if you recognize if you're not

755
00:58:03,186 --> 00:58:08,926
humble enough or if you are not honest to yourself enough then you find something that's a little bit

756
00:58:08,926 --> 00:58:13,386
iffy and then you turn 180 and then you go somewhere else right like this is what will

757
00:58:13,386 --> 00:58:20,566
happen if you are not honest so this is it requires a high level or conscious level of

758
00:58:20,566 --> 00:58:31,566
humility and honesty to even go beyond ourselves to say oh i'm i'm not sure and i'm gonna tell this

759
00:58:31,566 --> 00:58:37,046
to someone without feeling I'm going to be judged or rejected.

760
00:58:37,346 --> 00:58:39,306
It comes down to security too.

761
00:58:39,306 --> 00:58:45,406
So see that even something like this, it's really speak about everything you are and

762
00:58:45,406 --> 00:58:46,826
who you are as a person.

763
00:58:47,026 --> 00:58:49,746
So it's really a package deal.

764
00:58:49,906 --> 00:58:55,586
It's a daily practice for us to really be better each day and work on ourselves.

765
00:58:55,586 --> 00:58:57,626
It took me a while to get there.

766
00:58:58,026 --> 00:58:58,546
Yes.

767
00:58:58,546 --> 00:59:16,446
Listen, people like us that are people that are interested and like the fact that we're all into Bitcoin means we do have an ulterior, like an ul, not ulterior, but like our brains are a little bit different or maybe we have a higher risk tolerance or we see something.

768
00:59:16,446 --> 00:59:21,046
And if we can see that, then we have to be able to see other parts of us too.

769
00:59:21,506 --> 00:59:31,106
Because we can all be very, very smart at this, but really bad at relationships or really bad at family dynamics, whatever it is.

770
00:59:31,246 --> 00:59:32,866
And so it doesn't fix everything.

771
00:59:33,246 --> 00:59:34,586
You know, Bitcoin fixes this.

772
00:59:34,706 --> 00:59:35,586
No, it doesn't.

773
00:59:35,786 --> 00:59:37,586
You have to fix things yourself too.

774
00:59:38,186 --> 00:59:38,286
Exactly.

775
00:59:38,406 --> 00:59:45,626
So that whole Bitcoin fixes this, I feel like that is sometimes another thing that they say to cop out of fixing something.

776
00:59:46,446 --> 00:59:48,486
That's an outsource of responsibility.

777
00:59:49,206 --> 00:59:50,026
Sure is.

778
00:59:50,906 --> 00:59:53,206
I'm married, not very good.

779
00:59:53,286 --> 00:59:54,326
Family, not very good.

780
00:59:54,406 --> 00:59:55,466
Bitcoin fixes this.

781
00:59:55,566 --> 00:59:56,826
So I don't have to do anything.

782
00:59:57,786 --> 00:59:59,046
Bitcoin just can fix it.

783
00:59:59,566 --> 01:00:00,106
Yeah, yeah.

784
01:00:00,406 --> 01:00:04,826
So that's going to be a lesson or an epiphany

785
01:00:04,826 --> 01:00:08,366
that all Bitcoiners will at one point have to go through.

786
01:00:08,566 --> 01:00:10,046
And the sooner the better,

787
01:00:10,146 --> 01:00:13,086
so we can start for real doing something for ourselves,

788
01:00:13,166 --> 01:00:14,946
doing something for our lives and our loved ones

789
01:00:14,946 --> 01:00:15,826
and for the world.

790
01:00:15,826 --> 01:00:32,926
And how can we, now that we have found Bitcoin, understood it to the point that we do whatever that is, we now also have the responsibility to help the rest of the world at least get on their journey to truth, to love about themselves.

791
01:00:32,926 --> 01:00:46,386
So if to end our conversation here, if someone is feeling extremely lost or extremely clueless of what's going on in this world right now, what would you tell them that can help them?

792
01:00:46,386 --> 01:00:57,686
Well, every day you got to do something, something. And whether it's buy Bitcoin or not buy Bitcoin, that's not the point. Normally, when I'm having a conversation with somebody and they are lost.

793
01:00:57,686 --> 01:01:11,826
Well, I start with, and I do have a friend like this, and we've started, we started on the personal side of maybe how things were not going so well and talking about, okay, what can you control? There's only so many things in your life that you can control. So focus on those things.

794
01:01:11,826 --> 01:01:21,406
Now, in the process of that, and this actually went on for a couple of years where she was transitioning into a new place to live and didn't have a place to live.

795
01:01:21,566 --> 01:01:26,166
And she listened to me when I told her, just buy a tiny bit of Bitcoin, a couple hundred bucks.

796
01:01:26,446 --> 01:01:28,746
And she still has that to this day.

797
01:01:28,846 --> 01:01:30,286
And it gives her hope.

798
01:01:30,606 --> 01:01:31,206
She's hopeful.

799
01:01:31,586 --> 01:01:33,986
And I love that she did that.

800
01:01:34,506 --> 01:01:39,366
But again, like she still has a hard time, but I can be there helping her.

801
01:01:39,446 --> 01:01:41,046
So it's like, look to help somebody.

802
01:01:41,046 --> 01:01:53,226
And I don't mean to help somebody. You don't have to do everything, but her and I just messaging each other and sending a dog video or I'm thinking of you or I just wanted you to know I'm here for you.

803
01:01:53,326 --> 01:01:58,006
I think that's huge for people and just to be connected and stay in contact.

804
01:01:58,746 --> 01:02:00,906
And, you know, that's what you can do.

805
01:02:01,386 --> 01:02:03,746
And if you're that close to someone, you can do that.

806
01:02:03,826 --> 01:02:05,826
Well, then you can start plugging Bitcoin a little bit.

807
01:02:05,826 --> 01:02:12,146
I did that to my brother or my sister, you know, so it's taken time and I do it very

808
01:02:12,146 --> 01:02:18,446
gradually. But eventually, I'm going to get you. I think it comes down to intention and

809
01:02:18,446 --> 01:02:25,806
we have to, even with good intention, we have to discipline ourselves to do it in a non-condescending

810
01:02:25,806 --> 01:02:33,106
way. And, you know, I got to that point where I was kind of that way and then I just stopped,

811
01:02:33,106 --> 01:02:44,286
You know, you know me. And if you want to know anything, I'm here to tell you. I'm happy to tell you everything I can tell you. And that's that's where I stay at this point, because it's just people don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it.

812
01:02:44,286 --> 01:03:07,846
Yeah, for sure. I definitely had the similar kind of period and how I made peace with that is that everyone have their own timeline. And I'm here to serve as a touchpoint. And I may be the first touchpoint instead of the 100 touchpoint. And the reaction I'm going to get as a touchpoint in that journey is going to be different because people are going to react differently when they see it for the first time or 100 times. That's just natural.

813
01:03:07,846 --> 01:03:15,906
And I think it's also come down to us letting go of control and that I know better.

814
01:03:16,086 --> 01:03:20,346
And it's a little bit of it is egotistic, too, that I know better.

815
01:03:20,746 --> 01:03:22,006
I know that I know better.

816
01:03:22,326 --> 01:03:24,226
And you should listen to me.

817
01:03:24,526 --> 01:03:25,806
We're right.

818
01:03:26,066 --> 01:03:36,886
Like there's the sense of control going on there that we really have to work on letting go to the point that we only act from love, from good intention.

819
01:03:36,886 --> 01:03:42,186
and in a manner that's not, that's respectful of other people's journey.

820
01:03:42,426 --> 01:03:47,426
Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, you'll find yourself, you know, I remember I love my best

821
01:03:47,426 --> 01:03:54,406
friends from high school, but we're not the same. You know, it's me and them and they think I'm crazy

822
01:03:54,406 --> 01:04:00,466
and I love them. And I had to take a few days off talking about Bitcoin and talk about other stuff

823
01:04:00,466 --> 01:04:05,046
that, you know, some things I don't care about, some other things I do care about, but I care

824
01:04:05,046 --> 01:04:11,506
about them. So I still love them. And they all know that they know about Bitcoin. They know I'm

825
01:04:11,506 --> 01:04:15,326
into it. And if they want to know more, I'll tell them. That's so sweet. Love is the cure.

826
01:04:16,326 --> 01:04:23,426
It is. Compassion and honesty. Totally, totally. Wow. I really love this conversation. And if it

827
01:04:23,426 --> 01:04:29,586
wasn't for Bitcoin, we wouldn't be able to meet each other across the world and have the opportunity

828
01:04:29,586 --> 01:04:34,726
to have a conversation to talk about humility and maturity and the personal transformations

829
01:04:34,726 --> 01:04:39,206
happen on the Bitcoin standard. So deeply, deeply grateful. It's an amazing conversation to have

830
01:04:39,206 --> 01:04:43,866
like in the Bitcoin space. So thanks. I mean, thanks for having me. Amazing. Amazing. I'm so

831
01:04:43,866 --> 01:04:49,166
glad you like it too. I hope this conversation would give a little bit of food for thought for

832
01:04:49,166 --> 01:04:56,346
anyone who's going through a hard time, who's on the fence of Bitcoin and who are a little bit

833
01:04:56,346 --> 01:05:02,846
fed up perhaps by the sentiments of Bitcoin coming from all directions, the news, and

834
01:05:02,846 --> 01:05:09,086
sometimes it may not be in the favor of what Bitcoin really is. So hopefully this conversation

835
01:05:09,086 --> 01:05:15,906
serves as a starting point for you to look at Bitcoin from a different lens and think that it

836
01:05:15,906 --> 01:05:23,066
can mean something that's way beyond finance technology. And there is a role for Bitcoin to

837
01:05:23,066 --> 01:05:29,246
play in every one of us lives because I've never met a Bitcoiner who doesn't agree with the

838
01:05:29,246 --> 01:05:34,106
statement that Bitcoin changed my life. And on that note, thank you so much, Mel, for joining me

839
01:05:34,106 --> 01:05:40,846
in this conversation on Live with Bitcoin. And always amazing to see the life with Bitcoin happened

840
01:05:40,846 --> 01:05:47,946
in real life. And especially in your case, there's so much wisdom and peace and love that comes from

841
01:05:47,946 --> 01:05:51,986
your journey and thank you so much for what you do in the community.

842
01:05:51,986 --> 01:05:59,346
I'm included in the community who were deeply inspired by you and hope to keep in touch and

843
01:05:59,346 --> 01:06:02,346
keep inspiring.

844
01:06:02,346 --> 01:06:02,946
Thank you.

845
01:06:02,946 --> 01:06:03,946
Thanks for having me.

846
01:06:03,946 --> 01:06:07,746
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Live with Bitcoin.

847
01:06:07,746 --> 01:06:09,946
I'm your host Vivian and we'll see you in the next one.

848
01:06:17,946 --> 01:06:18,446
you