live from plan lab in austin texas this is stacker news live
hello ladies and welcome back to another exciting episode of stacker news live my bff keel
howdy doody kian hi howdy how was your uh week uh it was pretty good i think yeah it was amazing
actually yeah man so many cool things happened just trying to remember them all there were just
so many like having to having to think through all the things that happened i think i came into
work every day and then i was on a computer oh that's cool yeah what's that like these days
oh yeah it's like we have these screens that uh emit a bunch of colors in high density i could
see that um and yeah they help you communicate with people around the world yeah that's what
it's like being on one of those all day and that's what i usually do um yeah it was so good
couldn't believe it i couldn't believe it how was your week it was busy a lot of stuff going on
i feel like i was juggling like seven different things you know what though like
you really you really can um juggle a lot of things at once like when you're when you're
tested to the limit you can juggle a lot yeah like the mind is sometimes the mind is a mountain
but sometimes when you're asked to climb it well you can do it metaphors going on here you can
juggle in mountains you could you could definitely you definitely climb the mountain that is your mind
sometimes oh yeah for sure we we adapt we can adapt some of the limits it's fun too it's kind
of fun it reinvigorates you sometimes you know but uh i saw predator this week the new one the
new one yeah good dude yeah it's i mean you could tell it's for gen z so maybe take your kids or
something or your teenager it's for gen z like you could it's not it's not like a it's not for our age
what does that mean it just means that i mean i enjoyed it but you know i'm also a person that
likes watching films and movies and stuff so i'm already gonna be bought in so there's that that's
a lot of people no i feel like most people don't go to the theaters anymore i feel like that's a
thing okay yeah i think that's definitely true if you ever go to theaters like i enjoy going to
the theater like i watched tron i told you i watched tron and i watched it and i knew how
dumb it was i knew that it was just a stupid roller coaster ride but i enjoyed it yeah but
I'm just curious, how do you categorize a movie to be for Gen Z?
What happens in the movie?
I think you can tell it's a new spin.
It's a new spin on the Predator series,
and it's not for our generation because it's not.
Remember the Arnold Schwarzenegger one and then the Danny Glover one?
It was super violent, super surreal, very graphic.
I think there's all sorts of crazy stuff in there.
so this new one isn't as brutal no this new one is actually really cool it's like it turns it into
an actual like i mean i don't want to spoil it but just just go watch it it's a very slow
like it's a very slow thing in the beginning it's like slow at least to me it was probably not to
people that you know but like to me it was very slow and then somewhere like three like a quarter
way through it just like picks up and it was just like whoa this is great and then it and then it
just kept the ride just kept going and there's so many easter eggs dude and i won't give that away
where i'm just like oh this is so cool like uh because i'm just a fan of all that lore and stuff
so anyways that was that was the highlight of my week seeing predator bad lads sounds like a good
time yeah anyways if you've never seen this crazy show before it's called stacker news life it's um
people are still subscribing stop subscribing to this show um seriously they're not really
Hit unsubscribe.
No, because they're even watching it more.
It's kind of annoying.
They're watching it more, and they're subscribing, which is stupid.
Unsubscribe.
You can still watch it, but just don't subscribe.
Because the most popular video that we had last week was the Project Alexandria,
the one that I brought up, remember, about the copyright stuff?
Oh, right.
Turns out people want to hear about that stuff, Coop.
I guess they do.
I wouldn't have said otherwise.
Also, I was right here.
No one cares about BitChat.
Look, we got 19 views.
Or no one cares about our opinion on BitChat.
Yeah, there's that.
And then I think the people who are using BitChat,
they're all in the middle of...
And look, no one cares about fake L2 scans.
See, no one cares about this stuff.
This is what I'm saying.
Being on YouTube has shown me
that the vast majority of people
don't care about the things
that we argue about as Bitcoiners.
It's just the truth.
Well, yeah.
I think that's why all of the major podcasters say some,
some of them don't even cover Bitcoin exclusively anymore,
or they just mostly talk about like the stock market.
Look,
they care about the graphing stuff.
They care about the antichrist.
They care about the fall of the empire.
They care about the IMF and finding Bitcoin in a dumpster.
That's what they care about.
Pretty much any other subject we could cover,
but interest people more.
It's really fascinating.
But yeah,
hit,
hit unsubscribe.
Don't,
don't,
don't subscribe.
Cause it's like,
drawing too much attention it was into a political podcast where we just talk about
bitcoin bill that would trigger fake so bad imagine how triggered fake would get if we
just talked about politics yeah i don't know well i don't know anything about politics though
yeah but we also don't know uh much about bitcoin you know a little bit a little bit
anyways let's jump into the top stories this week we cover the top three every week here on
snacker.news what's the new slogan 24 7 bitcoin meet up on a website ouch but we're gonna make it
work i'll remember that something's not really a verbal one it's more about reading so it's a
it's okay we'll grow into that where we delve like into bitcoin we'll grow into it
anyways number three top story of the week rant if you think 50-year mortgages is debt slavery
you don't understand money this is from simple stacker number 12 econ territory 76 comments 3
162 cents key owned what is this yeah i guess uh trump flirted with the idea of introducing a 50-year
mortgage most i think most mortgages i would guess in the united states are 30-year mortgages
meaning you the bank gives you a bunch of money and you're expected to pay it over pay it back
over 30 years i think there's a lot of 15-year and 10-year mortgages maybe even some five-year
and commercial but um yeah it looks like in order to help the housing affordability thing
and stuff like that trump uh i don't know he probably just like tweeted this out or something
and said something about 50-year mortgages.
And then most of social media kind of had a meltdown.
A lot of people on the liberal side were like,
this is just assisting the banks,
helping the banks turn us into slaves and stuff.
And this is what Simple Stacker is ranting about,
is that a 50-year mortgage,
like the market doesn't offer a 50-year mortgage
because it puts the bank at a significant disadvantage.
There's no rational reason
why a bank would introduce a 50-year mortgage, because the money that gets paid back to the bank
is worth significantly less in 50 years, probably roughly half or more than half of what it was
worth when the loan was taken out. So it's actually not in the interest of the bank to do
a 50-year mortgage. And what likely happens, I think we even do this with a lot of 30-year
mortgages, is the government is subsidizing or providing protections to the banks that are
lending them out such that more people can have access to these long-term mortgages.
So especially as a Bitcoiner, I mean, we know a lot of Bitcoiners who take out loans against
their Bitcoin in order to get access to fiat without selling their Bitcoin. And because maybe
the loan terms are like 10% a year, they expect Bitcoin's price to rise faster than that.
And so in many ways, this is a boon to consumers and a problem for banks.
I think that Simple Stacker's point is like, if you want to be upset about this change,
be upset that it's likely a taxpayer who ends up paying for these mortgages because they don't
make economic sense and it's a good point but uh yeah he's basically he's basically said he would
take a 50 if they offered a 50-year mortgage he would take one because he knows he can
especially at a good interest rate because he knows he could apply that
you could deploy that money better um and earn more i feel like we talk about this like every
three or four months i feel like this is like a continuous stacker news top story or stacker news
live top story every few or i feel like it's always it's about it per quarter i would say
usually when rates go down or rates go up you get one of these posts like what do y'all think about
mortgages um oh like it's like a it's like a pulse test for the for the stackers on the on the site
um i'm gonna say the same thing i said last time it's like everybody's different every
everybody's situation's different i don't think it's the same thing as i think the united states
is probably its own little separate um thing going on here when it comes to mortgages and
all these different types of options and vehicles that they have for for this stuff i would imagine
if you go to a different country you probably get um better deals i don't know i feel like that's
that's probably true what do you think no i'm not i'm not so sure that's the case i think i think a
little layout of a lot of these financial services are the same regardless of the country you go to
the extent that they're different they're different as a result of either regulation or
subsidy but the market tends to converge uh and we have like you know global information networks
so if there's anything best practice that's done in one country it's likely applies in another unless
the government is what if you were like in paraguay or something and you bought land and then you got
local workers to build your your thing like and you already had that money saved wouldn't you save
more money that way or no um no well if you have to sell bitcoin the point is like okay so you that
that house in paraguay paraguay that you're building is like say it's a hundred thousand
us dollars you have to sell one bitcoin to build that house instead you can get a loan for a hundred
thousand dollars from a paraguay bank and not have to sell that bitcoin instead pay back an
inflationary currency um yeah but it really is kind of the way you look at it though kian like
i mean you're not actually i mean it's not i mean do you i don't want to go down this rabbit hole but
just to say like like the money doesn't exist in that sense like the dollars don't actually exist
because they're just printing the dollars and it's like the time right it's like they're just
taking away they're just taking i mean we all know it's the game right but like um you're trading
your your store value your your bitcoin for the um uh for the house at the end of the day right
if like if you're a bitcoiner and you're in your you're buying a house at a hundred thousand dollars
in paraguay to build your citadel or whatever you're effectively trading all that time energy
and money that you put into holding that Bitcoin for that Paraguay house or whatever.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong or situation for this.
I'm just saying that like that's the mental mountain that I'm grappling in my head when
I'm trying to climb through this kind of thing that we see every quarter.
It looks like every time we get this question because I hear his point.
I understand his point.
I understand it.
it's just the the mountain that's in my head that it's like i cannot let that go if that makes any
sense i think a lot of people are like that i don't i personally don't like that i don't like
the mental burden of having that i don't like having to owe people money um it's not worth it
for me even if there is some like advantage to say taking out a loan instead of like selling
assets or whatever but in many ways i just prefer to sell the assets so that i don't have to think
about this thing this like external thing that's going on i know everything is like taken care of
so that's that's what i'm saying that's what i always go back to i feel like everybody's
situation is different you know like everybody has a family or you might not have family or you
might be single or you are like i feel like everybody's situation is different and they
look at it effectively differently than everybody else's um certainly true you can't i can't argue
with that um but i think there are things to say about these mortgages and if people are
developing opinions on them they should try to develop an opinion that's that reflects the
economic reality i think is simple stacker's point yeah cool cool stuff man we'll see this uh in
february stay tuned this will be another post just in a different form um because we'll see it again
are they lowering rates next month or did they figure did they figure that out
i haven't been on twitter i don't really know i don't okay i imagine that they're moving rates
up and down however they want as they usually okay is pal still the guy or is it somebody else
now um i i don't know but i i haven't heard that it's someone other than pal all right somebody
comment in the show notes let me know uh the next top story is past transactions that violate
8BIP444, Redundance
Data Temporary Soft Fork
Rules. That's a mouthful.
Scoresby, November 12th, Bitcoin
Territory, 18 comments, 10,000 sats
all forwarded
to Monodical.
Yeah.
Way to go, Scoresby. Who's Monodical?
Monodical is a space monkey
who
hosts on X.
Wow, that's amazing. Good job,
scores me got him 10 000 cents yeah cool so what do we got here keon yeah so uh monodical went
through and looked at past transactions that would that would violate that four four fours
uh like data reduction and what's bit four four four sorry to cut you off just before is a soft
fork that is proposed by people in the knots camp so we're still we're are we still at a place where
we're arguing about core versus not i thought this got fixed lots of people are arguing about it still
I thought this got fixed when we decided on a central, what were we talking about the week before?
About the, somebody was working on a consensus engine.
Yes.
So that didn't get help.
The Bitcoin kernel.
That didn't help move the conversation into other things.
No, I think it's gotten to the, the filter debate has gotten to the point where the people who I think are pro-filters are now advocating for this temporary data reduction software to Bitcoin.
So Luke and Bitcoin Mechanic and Chris Guida, the people who are very pro-filter, are now in support, I think even super, are now in support of the software that restricts data usage on Bitcoin.
To just monetary?
To just monetary, but not for future transactions for past ones too.
How would you do that?
I think the point is to punish.
I think it might be to punish people.
So what they end up doing is they basically freeze funds for a year
that are UTXOs with certain kinds of transactions.
Freeze funds? How do you freeze funds?
You make them unspendable.
Which funds are they freezing?
That's what this post goes into.
all of the transaction types that they end up describing in this BIF
that they want to prevent from being spendable,
Monautical went through all the past transactions
and found transactions that would become unspendable
under this soft fork proposal's conditions.
And it ends up being, I think,
over 100 million transactions would be unspendable.
or would have an output that is unspendable in them.
Yeah.
This is just in time for conference season next year.
Hopefully this will get really spicy,
and then by the time we get to February or March,
this will be just in time for conference season.
And then all the conference organizers can cash in on this.
This should be good.
Cheers to that.
Well, I guess.
I mean, think about all the money.
think of all the money that's going to be made from this why would there be money made from that
controversy kian sells i don't know i think this is like oh here goes tofer here we go
here we go hang on let me uh let me get tofer in here this is mostly killing every bitcoiner's boner
it's okay hey i'm just trying to make a joke but apparently it didn't land well
are you gonna run bet four four or oh wait our thing is blurry now dang it
i think that threw this off okay thank you
or uh oh no what were they calling it like bitcoin cash jubilee yeah i call it bitcoin karen but
okay all right tofer what do you got on this apparently to move this are you no no it just
threw off the focus though just right there just put it right there okay it's still threw off the
focus i think i can move it out of frame yeah just move out of frame it throws off the focus
so what do you think about this because kian just said that they're trying to freeze this can't be
right i mean this can't be right they're not trying to freeze stuff are they really they're
trying to freeze my coins bro they're they're freezing my real bitcoin user so they're not
freezing real bitcoin users funds that's basically what they said so they're gonna freeze my coins
that sounds like fake news man are you sure this is not the bugle that we're listening to here
yeah yeah it seems like satire but i believe it is legitimate this is what this is what they are
advocating for this sounds like uh yeah this sounds like bugle news complete false yeah stuff
become sort of a parody of themselves i think it can't be real it's real dude so can you explain it
tougher just real quick what's going on um i don't really follow this uh because i'm just
checked out of all of the drama but uh i think luke wants to fork bitcoin so that he can add
restrictions, consensus level restrictions to Bitcoin script and just disable a bunch
of stuff. And one of the things that he wanted to say to disable, I think, was like the depth
at which you could spend from a taproot tree. And I think when he made that declaration
that he didn't do that, he couldn't think of, he didn't think that there was any actual
use cases of practice of people that actually had valid bitcoin scripts that were spending from that
debt yeah and then independent people went out and like oh no well there's this transaction
there's this transaction there's this transaction yes and so instead of being like oh well i know he
had a couple responses to that i saw some where he's just doubling down and saying people are using
bitcoin wrong yeah uh i saw another one where it's like well this is the reason why like we have like
a review process and why this is still like an active development so if you're not involved
in that process which is happening over on the knots github i guess so if you're not there
actively involved in the process uh then it's also your fault so it basically like boils down
to it's your fault if your bitcoin gets confiscated i love bitcoiners i think the other i love us so
much the other defense against these rules being kind of loose and freezing a bunch of funds is
like well they're only they're only frozen for a year the whole point this is a temporary software
we're only freezing for a year in preparation or doing a real a real freeze in the future once
we've like the year period is so that people who get their or their funds frozen can be like hey
luke please unfreeze my funds and then and they're real soft work in the future and like that's the
The whole point is just to give them a grace period before and give them a chance to court the king.
Hey, don't freeze my funds.
Wait, so.
You better ask Luke.
So does this mean that we're getting a dividend or what's going on here?
What exchanges are on board with this?
That's what I want to know.
We might get it.
I want to move to the dividend.
What exchanges are on board yet?
I don't know.
So we're not there yet.
So no exchanges are on board that we know of yet.
It's unlikely that.
Okay.
Unless we have a Roger Veritype character who is like really
selling, really exchanging.
We're getting close.
I would just say stackers that are listening at home, pay attention.
Once we get some exchanges to fall in line with this thinking too,
then we got a dividend coming.
This is so reminiscent of 2017.
This is awesome.
Have you talked about how there's like futures contracts?
Is that what they're saying?
Well, yeah.
Rob created a futures contract.
Which Rob?
Anchor watch Rob.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So there's a clever way that you can actually detect whether the software goes through or not in Bitcoin script.
So like you can create a Bitcoin transaction that's basically a futures contract.
That says, well, you know.
If I'm on this chain.
It's a bet.
I'm going to lock up this Bitcoin
you lock up some Bitcoin
and if the software goes through
you win the bet, it fails to go through
so it's like putting your money
where your mouth is
but no one's taken the bet so far as far as I understand
I don't think so
I think he's just going to get
I feel like
he's just falling into
an eternal
just like
a one up basically
where
and i don't know but it almost luke it almost feels like he's just getting played to a point
where they're just like oh i dare you oh i dare you i dare you and then it's like eventually he's
gonna hard fork right like it almost feels kind of like that like where like i don't think he
recognizes or maybe somebody's not in his corner telling him like hey man like i think they're just
egging you on who is it is well ocean right like ocean doesn't have yeah but everyone who
everybody around it i would imagine yeah everyone around it's advisors and handlers i would think
does and on it i think super is also pro the fork yeah that's it's true it's true we love you super
those are the people that i'm familiar with but i don't know i don't know what is motivating luke
Luke the biggest concern the most concerning thing that I saw was when he started saying that he has to save Bitcoin every few years which is just speaks of someone who struggling to think clearly Because otherwise when i hear luke when i hear heard luke speak about bitcoin seemed it didn seem nonsensical
to me um it seemed like he had a clear idea of what bitcoin was but when he starts thinking that
he is like saving bitcoin interesting now i begin wondering how sloppy his his reason the mind is
the mountain key on the mind yeah yeah but you juggle the mountain sometimes sometimes you got
got to juggle the mountain so we were having a conversation yesterday about um what was the
what was the term uh oh yeah yeah i feel like this is like there's some form of mania feeling
that started with the opportune drama and it's just never let up it's only being more
and uh this is just a part of it yeah there's a whole cp angle and vetting viruses on blockchain
and all this other stuff i guess all that stuff went away though people stopped talking about
oh it's still going the c sam's stuff oh is it well i don't think any of the big and big non-influencers
are saying anything about it anymore it's like they all got like a memo it's like i don't know
whatever like discord they're on or whatever they're like hey this is not good a good look
let's stop talking about it it seemed like it disappeared from their feeds anyway yeah maybe
oh okay man i can't this is amazing um i had no idea none of any of this was going on
this is amazing yeah i'm just like i'm just so proud of bitcoiners and
and their perseverance,
and they really are going after what they really believe in.
I truly believe that, right?
I think we all agree that Luke is going after what he believes in, right?
I'm not so sure.
So the other side—
I mean, he's getting—he's obviously, at least to me,
I think that he's getting egged on,
but meaning that he's getting like,
hey, I dare you to do this.
I feel like that's happening to him,
but I do believe he actually believes what he's doing.
So—
He's actually saying that.
No, I believe him when he says that.
Like, I believe him.
I believe him.
Somebody might.
But the other side of this.
Or, yeah, it could be true, right?
He could actually be doing that.
We don't know.
But in his mind, he knows.
The mind is a mountain camp.
Trick-a-ting.
I'm afraid to start talking because it's a prompt for a car to start talking.
Yeah, I know.
I'm sorry.
I'll stop talking.
I just find it fascinating.
This is so cool.
What is the alternate angle?
The alternate angle on this is this is like a marketing campaign for Knott's and Ocean.
And all of the stakes keep rising.
I didn't catch that.
They need a new controversy.
They just need to stay in the conversation.
I usually come up with those.
Think about how durable this is going to be in the market's memory.
Ocean is part of each of these articles that's talking about this controversy.
It's great marketing.
They're like manufacturing beefs.
And that's why I think no one has taken Robba.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, Dan, Keon, that actually is...
Damn, that's so right.
Because who really cares about it?
Like, the industry as a whole.
Why would he...
But everybody knows Ocean now.
Yeah, and Knott's.
And, like, they're...
People are making names for themselves.
Exactly.
they're gaining influence and i don't think it i don't think they're destroying the reputations
that we have a short memory like that we have like like a four-year memory like oh yeah that
guy was known for some bullshit but by then a bunch of new bullshit people have come up and we forget
and then they're and now they have um now they have something else they're selling and they're
like wow they have like three thousand three hundred thousand followers they must be really
important or whatever and we just forget that they were dang they were uh kind of buttholes at one
point yeah so gosh it is a short memory yeah like you might be on something who remembers uh i mean
i i still have some vivid memories and things that mechanics said because yeah all things
but yeah like people are getting it just it's a bad look for everybody it's like if you get sucked
into this quite a lot yeah i feel bad for this tripping over your own word even even if you're
like a smart person yeah they're tripping over your word to get go to bad positions that you
then have to defend yeah everybody's looking to poster like quote quote poster everybody else
clip them and put them online and then yeah and then at the end of the day it's like you get all
these followers that are like sucked into this controversy and and they have short attention
spans they're going to look favorably on the people that they're rallying behind so if they're
people have like a bad say something bad don't forget about it yeah yeah so it's just i know
it's just like it never ends this thing this thing keeps going what is going to finally cause this
i think this fork them actually forking is when it when it's over if they actually do it i don't
think there is there's not many you eventually run out of like escalations like if you it's like a
it's like an avengers movie eventually you start eventually everyone's immortal and you can time
travel like that's the only place that's the only place you have to go is like where
that's so good yeah thank you man keon you won this one okay i think i think you yeah yeah i
think you're right on this one god i'm not sure i'm right but it is it feels right it is the
possibility that i consider the most i never thought about that possibility with just being
a really good marketing campaign yeah i i mean i mean imagine you're running a nascent my bitcoin
mining pool and and allegedly the ceo and founder is paying themselves three quarters of a million
dollars a year and you know you have a lot of money to recoup what are you you're going to start
doing desperate things to get get your uh mining pool some more fees um get get some more people
mining with you create a crusade join the crusade mine with us you'll be on the right side of the
crusade that's a good i mean incentives yeah blow everything around me okay cool let's jump into the
next the number one top story of the week is i executed my roaster my roast of my most recent
a Bitcoin trade at a coffee shop register.
This is from Scoresby.
20 comments, 5,240 cents.
Keon, what's this?
Yeah, so Scoresby went and used the Square Terminal,
I think, at Medici's in Austin.
They're one of a few, I think,
are popular ones that have enabled this so far.
Have you guys used Square's Terminal yet?
I haven't done it.
I need to look at that.
Yeah.
If I don't want to,
because I want to see where
somebody has a Square Terminal,
but they don't have Bitcoin set up.
um versus one that already has it set up but i know that for them yeah so some of my list of
yeah i think parker went there with parker lewis went there with
senator loomis the other day i think that's how i i knew that they were yeah you know we had a big
dog and big wig um the coffee shop it's like all of a sudden all these like crazy libertarian people
start showing up to buy your coffee yeah i mean but we are not we are in austin
their hair isn't blue they're wearing a polo
but senator loomis is like you cannot you cannot detect senator loomis outside of her like like
her little uh like female suits like her senator suits i could i saw yeah it's like a little suit
rather than a big suit like a man's suit that's what you wanted to say i saw her in bitcoin i saw
her at a coffee shop in at bitcoin 2021 she was like behind me in line but i didn't recognize her
until I saw her on stage later.
I'm like, oh shit, she was right.
And I'd seen pictures of her and stuff,
but she doesn't, you know, you just don't register.
Yeah.
You have like a, in your memory.
I want to say that I would register.
Really?
Yeah, because I think I've seen her face enough.
Even on, but I feel like a face on a screen
is way different than a face in person, at least for me.
Yeah, so maybe I would.
My mapping is poor.
Like, I'm pretty sure I've seen Tim Ferriss in person
and austin here but i did not recognize him because i only know it's tim ferris on screen
yeah like oh it kind of something vaguely reminds me of yeah i think that's what you get with loomis
but maybe not i don't know um but anyway it's live and you can go uh i wonder i haven't looked
at the map yet i haven't even downloaded is it in the cash app app do you guys i know you guys are
to find the places that you can go yeah we have our
we have a cash app specialist over here okay
our cash app specialist is uh on sick leave so cannot report back um but apparently yeah so they
launched the ability to turn any square terminal into a bitcoin accepted point of sale um and then
they had then they also launched the ability for these bitcoin merchants to advertise themselves on
a btcmap.org type thing, but it's much nicer because Square already has a network effect.
And so they can just put a bunch of pins on a map from all these merchants.
I think they also have the ability for you to send from Cash App user to Cash App user
sending fiat, not even sending Bitcoin, but sending fiat over Bitcoin rails,
or I think in some cases, stablecoin rails.
there's a bunch of yeah square terminal or just cash out the cash out i think it's
the square and cash up are the same entity right so the terminal is like a different experience
but they're like in control of both so i think i think you can you can send you can send them
like if you're if you if if they present you a qr code that's like pay the square merchant
and it's denominated in fiat,
you can send them Bitcoin
or you can send them fiat.
I think if you send them fiat from your cash app,
I think in some cases they use Bitcoin rails for that.
And in other cases, I think they use stable coin rails.
Yeah, so that's like the other thing to this
is that they didn't just activate the use of Bitcoin
on square terminals,
but the use of stable coins.
Stable coins, yeah.
Reduce fee, fiat stuff.
And apparently they're using Solana.
Which is a popular way to do this, apparently.
But I'm excited about the merchant map.
I'm excited about Bitcoin.
Scoresby writes in here, like, the big deal here is that
if we can get places where we can spend Bitcoin,
then the, like, banking regime,
the, like, surveillance banking regime,
the government's control of people through,
uh banking um weakens because now we don't have now we don't have to go to on and off ramps we
don't have to convert our bitcoin to fiat in order to live or convert our fiat and bitcoin in order
to live because we can we can exchange it directly with other people who are accepting bitcoin um
and i think that's i think so this is a huge i think a huge step in the right direction um yeah
yeah i'm really stoked about this i feel like wallets need to catch up now that uh squares just
like drop the bomb boom now you have all these merchants that can potentially accept bitcoin
uh but are there users out there with bitcoin wallets that have bitcoin spend
that aren't yeah just other cash app users yeah well cash app they like bury the bitcoin features
They do.
Yeah.
Even the point of sale, from what I understand, is like at the bottom of some menu.
To activate it or use it?
I think it's like, Nick was showing us.
Were you there when he was showing us on the Bitcoin Park terminal?
No.
So when I first used this, I used like a demo version of this at the Bitcoin Conference in Vegas.
They kind of had a preview of how this would work.
And it was seamless for me.
I mean, it showed me a lightning invoice.
I scanned it.
I think once you enable it, it's okay.
But I think getting to the point where you do enable it,
it's kind of buried.
Cheers.
You want to talk?
Whoever's that first Bitcoin customer
also needs to be able to do the tech support.
Yeah.
I've heard a friend of mine calls them Bitcoin Mormons.
I have a single little joke to add
to what you were saying, Topher.
you say
wallets need to catch up
and I say wallets need mustard
that's a dad joke
cool
well
our minds
are going to have to recover from
that
happened
they are bland
all right that's all the top stories this week on stagger news live we're gonna jump into
wumbles we go wumbles picks it's up to you you're the producer uh let's let's go into let's go into
kiont's post real quick because okay they're all also bitcoin stuff uh yeah what is this sailor
versus channels yeah i guess this guy started short in uh micro strategy it was made the rounds a few
months ago and everyone was like what is he thinking oh he's gonna get wrecked he's gonna
because i think uh you know like these these stocks have m nav which is like the um the asset
value relative to the company value or whatever and uh sailor's micro strategy was super overpriced
and so this guy's like that's going to collapse like that premium on the bitcoin that they hold
is going to collapse. And so he shorted it, which we've described short selling before,
so I don't want to do it again. But he shorted it and he made money basically because Saylor's
stock is now, I think it's trading below the Bitcoin value on their balance sheet currently.
Yeah. Now that Bitcoin's price is down a lot. So he basically made money betting against Saylor,
which is just kind of, I thought it was kind of fun.
Interesting.
He cashed out already.
Yeah.
So I think when you short, what you do is you buy,
you buy or you borrow a stock from someone else
and you sell it for cash.
And then you promise in the future to give them the stock back.
So you have to buy it in the future.
So if the price is down, you've made money.
So the next one you had was mempool filters
are subsidies to miners who ignore them. Yeah. So this is, Scoresby is going through
Voskul's crypto economics book. And I think he's on like chapter three now.
But Voskul writes about how he thinks that like secondary fee markets, like transaction
accelerators and stuff are not, don't actually harm Bitcoin security. They do like directly,
They do mess with the mining dynamics, but they don't harm the security because it really just means that someone is either accepting a Bitcoin miner is either accepting a underpriced fee or for a transaction to get included in a block or someone is overpaying.
That's what the existence of.
Of these markets usually indicate.
It's a it's like a subtle point.
but I think it's really interesting.
And yeah, I wanted to make sure we covered that.
Cool.
Let's jump into the most spicy topic this week.
Bitcoin lending app Lava quietly shifted its custody model.
This is also from Scoresby.
Keon, I've never heard of Lava.
What is this?
Oh, well, so it's actually not. This is one aspect of this story. But the other aspect of the story is Lava is a Bitcoin wallet that allows you to get fiat loans collateralized by Bitcoin.
And they've existed for a few years now. I think they had like a beta launch maybe over a year ago.
and um they but most recently they raised a bunch of money and had a big marketing push around it
and you know a bunch of bitcoiners reacted to it it caused a bunch of controversy because uh
and then this is one aspect of the controversy um and that aspect being is that they previously
built themselves as a non-custodial service where you you hold one wait you say non-custodial
oh okay yeah non-custodial like kind of like an unchained like an old unchained loan but in this
case they were using dlcs so that dlcs you say yeah they're using with an oracle yes with an
that's what that's what dlcs require is an oracle making sure the stackers at home understand this
yeah so i think the user had one key the dlc and the oracle had another key and then um effectively
And then I think Lava had a key.
Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
I think that's how the loan worked before.
And then they do some kind of atomic swap on to Solana for stable coins to get you your loan.
An atomic swap, you say?
Yes, that's what I said.
And that's how it works originally.
And I guess with this release, I guess they raised like a Series B or something.
They actually switched away from the non-custodial model.
Why?
Without communicating it very well to their current customers.
For why, though?
It was working.
Yeah.
Shazan, the founder and CEO,
claims that it's because DLCs have security vulnerabilities.
Is that true?
Is that true, Topher Scott?
That he is not disclosed.
And I think you have a take on this.
Is that true, Topher Scott?
Carr is...
Are there security vulnerabilities in DLCs?
Yeah.
I know Carr said that you had thoughts on this or something.
uh uh well i asked uh if there are vulnerabilities in dlcs is he planning on disclosing them
is he planning on filing cve what's a cve for people at home who don't understand that tofer
why is that important it's basically you can officially file that this is this is a known
exploit and so why would you do that for tofer um so that other people in the industry can track it
Oh.
Like, this is the exploit.
This is when it was first noticed.
And then also, like, it's part of the responsible disclosure.
So you're saying, like, hey, this is an exploit that everybody should know about so that you know how to mitigate it.
Or at least, like, there's steps being taken to mitigate this in private.
And then there's going to be some.
So it's basically letting the rest of the ecosystem who's also building on DLCs a heads up.
Yeah.
Yeah, because he.
I was talking to him.
he said that this was a vulnerability in the cryptography itself surrounding dlc's it wasn't
in the implementation that his company um created it was in the cryptography
but elliptic curve elliptic curve elliptic curve oh discreet okay i was just making sure okay
Yeah, so I don't know.
I mean, I would like to see, like, what is this vulnerability that he's so concerned with.
I don't think, it feels like a critical vulnerability in, like, the photography of DLCs itself.
I think that's highly unlikely.
because there's so many other people that work on DLCs.
They would have found it by now, right?
Isn't ShirtBits, are they still around?
No.
No?
They've been out for a long time.
Ben Carmen is like Mr. DLC, isn't he?
Yeah.
Yeah, he worked at ShirtBits.
He did a couple DLC workshops at PlubLab.
He never said anything about vulnerability.
He used to work a lot on DLCs.
Well, no, but I think what Shazan alluded to is that when they were developing this product, which I think they were developing longer than Sharedbits existed, and I think also they had more usage and even a different use case than they did, they discovered vulnerabilities that made it not a great option for their product, is what he implies.
I didn't see that he said they're a cryptographic product.
No, that was what he told Topher in private.
Okay.
But that is, so I think for most people,
it doesn't pass the smell test because it,
most people would have released like a CV.
There would have been some disclosure about it.
They would have at least, that would be the normal thing to do.
It's possible they got so busy or whatever,
they never had the opportunity to release anything.
But that is it because the alternative to this is this is just like marketing speak for why they switched away from non-custodial.
It's like this is what exactly what you say during a PR campaign about why.
Yes.
We're saving you.
I'm so proud of Keon this episode.
I feel like you understand the angles to these now.
Good stuff, Keon.
Okay, well, I'm happy to fill you with pride.
What bugs me about this the most is that he snugged an update.
Well, through an update, he basically swiped it for this moment.
Really? You don't say.
Where did it go?
Well, he moved it out of the non-custodial arrangement, which is like...
Which is not non-custodial.
Yeah.
Oh, did he send it to Kraken?
is that where you sent it to well i think tracking is their custodian um
and yeah i think they it was so if you take him at his if you take him at his word this is a novella
they find they find critical vulnerabilities in dlcs they realize all of their customers
are vulnerable to to some kind something an attack of some kind that get that can lose
on their money. So they do is they release,
they release an update coordinated with a huge fundraise to move that moves
all the funds somewhere they think is safer than the DLC contract,
which happens to be Kraken or some Kraken related entity.
And coincidentally,
it's also makes the product much easier to use and much easier to sell.
So that's like, just like taking them at their word,
which might be the case I met Shazan several times
I always like Shazan
I don't know and so I don't
it doesn't strike me as someone who's like a shady
person
we don know the full story is he the CEO Kion or is he the CTO No he the founder and CEO Oh so he making the decisions then Yeah Okay Well technically it his fault
Yeah, technical founder, very, you know, one of the, like, a general.
Yeah, it's on him, man.
Yeah, I think it may be just some, this might be like a miscommunication thing.
Yeah, maybe it's just back a lot.
It's hard to manage this kind of thing.
If they did have this, they might, what I guess actually happened is they were developing this product.
They released it thinking that it would garner more interest than it did.
It didn't because it's hard to use.
All this complicated cryptography and stuff,
and the user has to hold keys and stuff.
And they didn't get the usage that they wanted to.
And then they realized it'd be to the benefit of their product
to make it custodial.
And so they implemented the switch,
and now they're trying to explain it.
But you need a money transmitter license to do that, though.
That's the whole point.
I'm not sure if you are, it depends on the arrangement.
There is, it's possible there are, it depends on the terms of service.
It's possible with the rightly, with a correctly worded terms of service, you can custody someone
else's funds without KYC in certain conditions.
Cause you're not transmitting, you're transmitting money to the person themselves.
You're not, they're not transmitting money.
Are they out of Delaware?
Where are they, where are they out of?
The corporation itself is likely formed in a U.S. state.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
It was? Okay.
Well, we'll see how long it goes.
So the funniest part of this whole thing
was that Corey Swan has been going on
like a fucking tear.
Oh, has he now?
Yeah.
It brought him out of his slumber.
Well, Corey's an interesting one
because this is where I say there's a short memory.
I think everyone's going to have forgotten
his recent controversy surrounding Tether,
although he's bringing it back up.
Wait, what was the controversy around Tether again?
The contribution on Tether is that they were partnered in a mining business with Tether, I think based in Africa.
I actually forget exactly.
Maybe it was South America.
But they partnered in a mining business.
And then now the people who are running the mining business from within SWAN left SWAN, like all of them, left SWAN and joined Tether to run that mining business independently.
And they're like, F you SWAN.
And then I think Corey and Swan are suing this Tether subsidiary that has their IP in the mining business and stuff.
Basically killed their business.
He's alleging that they came.
Yes.
Well, yeah, Swan was rising.
They had, I don't know if you remember, but they were public, like Swan's investors who get their investor updates were seeing Swan's revenue numbers and were suspicious of them and posting, like, this is bullshit.
I don't believe they're making this much money, but it turns out this was all like mining revenue that they had in this partnership with Tether.
And so when this coup happened or whatever happened, I don't know what happened, it basically killed Swan's profit center.
And, you know, so Corey went kind of silent.
Yeah.
And now he's back.
But now he's back.
He's slaying shit coiners again.
so i mean you have you can you have several you have several lives on social media and in bitcoin
and you can just come back you can like kind of ruin destroy your reputation and you can come back
again you can like rise again and not that cory did that but yeah interesting a lot of interesting
stuff going on in bitcoin this week um yeah a lot of releases i've noticed we're gonna jump into
Wumble's Picks.
Wumble, Wumble's, Wumble's Picks.
This one says
young people wishing to move to a different
country within three years.
I think these are
states in the European Union
and they did some
kind of survey polling young people
and they
asked them if they're planning to leave
the country and
it looks like a significant
percentage of them did.
In the case of Ireland, over 50%.
the majority of young people there said they were planning on leaving.
35% were planning on leaving, and then another 26% would like to leave but had no plans.
You can kind of go through the, there's like several other European states here,
and like Slovenia, even Slovenia, which is on the far end,
has some of the least young people looking to leave.
They only have a little over 20%.
but yeah this was shared by Patrick Collison one of the can you stop tapping your can one
one of the Stripe founders and he he shared it because he's from Ireland and he has an interest
in you know young people doing doing things and I think he also lives in Ireland now primarily but
I wish they would have asked you what side of Ireland.
This is in Ireland.
He asked that.
And all of them said it was because they lacked a critical density of people who shared their interests.
Like they couldn't find as many people who shared their potentially obscure interests, so they wanted to leave.
And I think the other reason was, I think it was related to lack of opportunity or something like that.
Yes, I don't know what side of Ireland is represented by this chart, but the southern side, I spent some time in.
And there's a lot of tech companies that move to Ireland because of tax benefits.
I don't know if you remember charging no tax whatsoever.
Yeah, no corporate tax.
Yeah, lower low corporate tax.
in ariel and offices there moves the people and so kind of like yeah apple famously did yes
because you have like these high paying tech jobs but otherwise it's like
a country with like a low meaning salad and so um yeah so when you when you say lack of opportunity
um i don't know i guess it depends on what sector you're in but yeah like
there's definitely like a wage gap ah it was cost of living not lack of opportunity so
cost of living is high i guess cost of it's a cost of living and lack of a critical mass
of people who share their interests
also living i would have to like push back on that and say maybe it's cost of living
compared to what the median wages yeah that would be i think that that's encapsulated by cost of
living it's like you can't get a wage in ireland that would allow you to support yourself well
there okay wow that's interesting yeah um but it also it applies across europe apparently and
perhaps for different reasons um and then wumbo wanted us to ask some questions or asked us some
questions about this he said the percentages in the graph seem very large what percentage
uh would actually want to leave versus just expressing disagreement with their i think these
I haven't looked at the details of this study and survey, but I would guess these are people that actually plan on leaving.
If a competent person is running this survey, they are going to weed out whether it's someone just looking for a way to communicate that they don't like being in Ireland.
I think they actually do plan to leave.
I guess I have a bigger question.
Do people just naturally leave European countries just like all the time?
Is that like a thing over there?
uh i like do they just like hop around well it is that you are you are in proximity to other
like so you just like leave right it's kind of like the states where you're just like oh i'm
just gonna move to one from one state to another yeah yeah like i had a friend okay i had a friend
who grew up it's not really a big deal then in belgium who would frequently go to like holland
yeah and they were just or like uh socks and ek were talking about they just took it took a train
to a conference that was in another country in Europe.
So, yeah.
One bill also asks, what would cause you guys to leave the USA?
Topher, do you have an answer?
Persecution.
Okay.
Financial persecution.
Not any other type of persecution.
No, just a desk cloud.
That's how fast I would be.
I don't consider Texas the United States.
So I think that's a...
I don't consider Texas the United States.
So that's where I feel like it doesn't apply to me.
Until that happens, where I start feeling like Texas is the United States,
then I'll consider something.
100%.
Not even close.
like i go to other states and i visit other cities in other states and i feel
i feel like the way nick feels when he comes to like when he walks downtown
yeah i love texas do you think you think like what is it that makes texas safer guns and religion
and the people are nicer and there's like a reality here that you can't get any any place
else on earth i think from where i've gone people are like well i think they're in their own reality
but i think here in texas and maybe because i just grew up here so it's just like
yeah okay but at least some of those things you can get in other states like you sure you could
guns and religion certainly right but not everybody has that you know like you can you
You can drive to a town and there's a church every three miles.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing,
but it really does make everybody think from like a base reality version
of what's around us.
And whether that's good or bad at least puts everybody in moral standing.
Okay.
So you think?
I think the morals are a little bit more.
There's morals in Texas, I would say.
Probably not so much in Austin, obviously.
it's a very you know liberal city but outside of austin it's very so even the government if like
the usa started like the federal government started acting a fool you think like a hundred
percent yeah texas would percent yeah like what is it called it's like yeah secede i don't think
it would secede but i think it would it would stand up an army of its own and if it didn't
its texan citizens would yeah you'd join the texas rangers you do not saying all that but i
think there would be a united front you'd start the podcast for the united front no there'd be
united front texans are just built different i know i'm getting i'm just trying to get what is
but i i hear what you're saying it's like you feel like there's enough of a an attitude about
freedom in texas that should the united states start encroaching on people's freedoms here that
Texas as a whole would resist.
Okay. Yeah.
I buy it. I think that's why everybody
likes it. They're like, oh man,
I wish I could change this. You guys don't allow
porn and you guys don't allow... It's just like,
yeah, why do you think it's great?
I like how decentralized Texas is.
The grit?
It's a massive state.
If you look on a map,
it's little towns.
Everywhere.
Everywhere you go, the towns.
back roads and they're all nice man i mean there's some places where they're not nice but like
um for the most part i feel like it's a very nice nice nice state i mean there's some bad cities here
and there right but um for the for the most part you'll find a city or a town that you'll
that you'll fit in in texas yeah everything's bigger in texas even the space you'll fit in
all right yeah well there's one more question yeah yeah well we didn't really answer that one
i'd leave i'd leave the united states when i wanted to be somewhere else i guess uh is mostly
i don't know yeah if i wanted to be in paraguay but i was in the united states i'd leave the
united states but i like i don't have any i don't really want to be in paraguay right now
okay so I answered
do you think people
answer yes
they are thinking of leaving
okay for the people
I think he kind of misphrased this
but for the people who answered yes
have they explored adopting Bitcoin
is what he asked
and I would guess
I would guess that's sort of independent
an independent question
the people who are thinking of
leaving these countries these eu states yeah it says young people and young people don't have
bitcoin so that answers that question it's true they've had less a fewer years to learn about
bitcoin it takes 10 000 hours and they maybe haven't been alive that long yeah so i think
that answers that question yeah but i uh what you know like i think i think he's trying to get at
like if they if they were aware of bitcoin and had bitcoin would they still want to leave these
countries like if they they felt like there was hope beyond moving to another like sovereign nation
would they would they stay and i think they i would guess they would if they it sounds like
like the reason why you really start seeking out people who share your interests
is is um is so that you can you can advance yourself and um maybe make more money and then
afford the cost of living i think those are like i think those are actually like sort of
to relate it to cost of living and finding people with shared interests um there's also like of
course fulfillment of finding people with shared interests but it's mainly like you get like extra
powers it's like uh you unite with people with shared values and grow yeah so for me like a big
one of the things that bothers me the most uh is taxes and not just taxes but that
the tax money goes into programs that are very disgusting and despicable and hostile towards me
and the smaller that loop is of my tax money going into an account it's okay it was picking
up him from other myself keep going you're going you're good but yeah like uh so if like living in
California, I mean, you could see your tax money directly being deployed against you.
And it just made paying that tax bill just more and more difficult, like on a psychological level.
Yeah.
Because it feels like you really are like a subject.
You're funding your enemy.
Yeah.
You're funding your own destruction.
oh hey car have you been uh using skin cream look you look a lot younger i have been using
skin cream thank you that's that's nice what do you are you gonna leave uh what would make you
well i was trying to think um i mean i'm curious about like living in other countries so like if i
had an opportunity maybe i would try it but another thing is like family so what does that
bring them to mind if i can bring my family yeah would you leave yeah okay where would you go
i'd probably go to ireland really really i don't know i would go uh you think you're awesome to
wear a kilt um i don't want to answer that it'd be like really hard to sack in a kilt yeah yeah
like especially in like public you wouldn't want to be hacking a sack and right right i'm getting
really good are you getting good i'm getting good at it i mean i don't want to speak for car
but okay i was getting the vibe that he didn't want to be here anyway
yeah he looked he looked super distracted all the time
okay well i think there's like another we're supposed to move on now from this
you know how to do that oh what's the next thing coop
anyway ireland beautiful country good choice uh definitely a lot easier to live there if you're
on a bitcoin standard okay because why is there special for bitcoin one thing because then you
don't really you're insulated from the politics politics are awful politics are bad okay um
you're insulated from it i thought they were like cool i thought they might have like a spirit
of rebellion like rebelliousness because of um like all like the ira stuff and like them
getting independence from like the united kingdom that's changed a lot so like northern ireland
Northern Ireland is part of the UK and Southern Ireland is part of the EU.
I think I got that right.
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
So like half of them breakfast.
Yeah.
So, so, so, yeah.
So like, so there's definitely a rebellious spirit.
I haven't been there long enough to really understand like how the people think or anything
like that.
How long were you there?
I was like for a couple of weeks.
Okay.
That's a good story.
So, but, um, they do have everything in their language.
So it's like part of Gaelic.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's like a certain dialect of Gaelic.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, like, so like it's mandated by the government that like all official government
documents are also there in Gaelic and English.
Oh, so you see it everywhere.
Um, I think that's cool.
Um, also like the, uh, no corporate tax rate.
Yeah.
but they're they're in battle with the eu over that because the eu wants them to collect taxes
because they don't like i guess they don't like the situation where all of these companies are
choosing to incorporate there's no uniformity yeah so so they're battling over that so i guess
that makes them pretty independent even though like other things are messed up well other things
there's like a lot of history in all of these like current things that are happening i think like
the relationship between like england and uk is one that you can't really just like state over
i don't know it's it's it's storied history yeah yeah there's there's a lot of great history in
ireland i know but the politics are i mean it's it's extremely leftist country politically yeah
I know Sean McGregor is going to, isn't he running there sometime?
Yeah, but he's running for a ceremonial title.
It's not really like a title with any real political power.
That's right.
They do like different types of governments there where they have like prime ministers.
But we're going to look at this right now.
So I just made another zine and it's number 33 and here it is.
Wow.
I know.
We're going into palindromes.
Oh.
The one that you made about, that was you.
remember the plant one that this might be my favorite one since then i think i want to buy
this one oh my gosh we made a sale okay um anyway yeah so this is number 33 and i made a post about
it you could check it out there um one thing about this is like is this how we're doing this okay
um i used freaking i used things that you guys told me and i and i went and put your own
your very own submissions uh made up a lot of what got printed in the zine
as just like um extra fun material that i like to use so um you can see that
Did you come up with that?
Well, that's from the post.
Keon's post.
This one here.
I know.
I thought this was really cool.
Keon, I also used this.
Oh, yeah.
This bit.
It's a seven set Venn diagram.
And somebody developed this.
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah.
So this is like.
That's pretty cool.
This is a visualization of a seven set Venn diagram that they use colors for and mixing
colors to kind of show where they're overlapping um but we've all seen like two or three
uh sets in a venn diagram this is a seven set venn diagram so seven is the amount of colors
that are here because there's a lot more than seven things going on yeah but there's oh i guess
because it it like exponential seven primary the connections are like exponential from seven
they're not because of how they overlap yeah i don't know about exponential but i mean it looks
like more than 14 um yeah no that may that may be that may be actually true um i don't know i
liked it this is fun where'd you find this uh i was just looking for inset venn diagrams because
this is kind of what i was thinking of oh yeah sweet oh no yeah 128 color combinations is what
you end up with according to that 128 okay yeah so it does seem exponential but it could be
yeah all right um seven to the fourth uh maybe i don't know um anyway we don't do math i never do
math um we can do a separate podcast where you do math cool stacker news math oh i actually want
to ask you guys what do you think about this i put this on the cover what what do you think about
this is that a band-aid yeah there's like all of them in there no but what do you think about this
statement here we like bitcoin but we love freedom more yeah you have to separate them
car says it's a gen z statement but so is also the new predators movie says there's also a gen
movie oh i'll tweet it okay um but yeah it's good check out this post and everything else i've done
about um the zine actually i've been thinking about that yeah um i want to encourage if you're
gen z and you're watching find something
nice car says 18 to 27 are watching this was like which i imagine he um got that from his like
youtube stats sweet um i would encourage you if you're 18 to 27 to find your like like the kids
in ireland were saying they want to talk to people who think like them so you need to like get off of
the corporate platforms for talking to each other and find your niche
platforms for talking to each other.
One of those is going to be stacker news.
I would encourage you anyway,
we're already here.
So we know that,
but for the YouTube land,
it might be important to,
um,
go to a different channel.
What happened?
I think,
yeah,
it's like you do this.
You,
you like to dance with your hands when you talk.
Shoot.
And you kind of,
I guess,
car,
you gotta,
you gotta come back.
know but i already did you gotta burn through 10 000 hours so i already did my bit so now i'm done
yeah i'm sorry i messed it up no you're good
what's unblurred now what's going on hello well thanks for the break yeah where did you go to did
Do you leave the United States?
Got some beers.
I actually think this is an amazing wine I going to buy these Are you trying to do it with your own camera I not going to buy it I would believe it
There's only like three in there.
Now that we got that one, let's jump into my top stories of the week, hackers.
I really want to share this.
When women build, freedom follows, meet the hackers of Hack for Freedom.
So apparently I found this out today.
that Brianna put together.
She builds the company Eventu.
It's a really cool app.
But apparently she did this in Nigeria
where she did a women-only Bitcoin hackathon.
I didn't even know about this.
And look at all the people that showed up.
And the HRF sponsor,
but they were able to come together
and they were actually building Bitcoin stuff,
which is pretty freaking cool.
And then she was telling me that like, and I didn't even know this.
So I was really surprised that she was saying that women are intimidated to hack.
And this is like some insight that she had.
And turns out she was right.
But Team Lightning O won.
Looks like they had some other winners too as well.
but team bit save one as well too um and uh yeah i just thought it was really freaking cool team
bitstra a lot of really cool little things but um team life drops as you know like just doing top
builder we've seen ezron and a couple onions man a couple other people come through top builder and
they were building projects in nigeria and they were working with be trust so i had no idea there
was even women that were building to as well um so i thought that was it was the best news i heard
this today because i had no idea there was women bitcoin builders in nigeria what was the winning
project i think it was this one here team lightning no yeah but uh what's like the synopsis it looks
like it's a non-profit open source platform built on nostril and light now it connects global
sponsors and local talent through bounties gigs and grants a secure custodial escrow system ensures
transparency and trust throughout each transaction.
Ah, lightning.
Sounds like a right up your alley, Topher Scott.
Escrow.
Custodial though.
That's legal in Nigeria.
But really cool stuff.
I just wanted to share that.
Cause I think when are you going to talk about something unique like this?
Crazy, right?
No, it's awesome.
It's awesome.
I mean, it's awesome, but it's, I was like, I had no idea this was a thing.
You must've posted this like right before.
I posted it right before.
Yeah.
But look, it happened October 9th.
Why did I hear about this?
I don't know.
I didn't hear about it either.
I'm not on Twitter, so I don't know.
But maybe it was on Twitter.
Maybe it was on Twitter.
Maybe it got tweeted somewhere, and then it got lost in the sauce.
This is a real alpha, right?
Yeah, this is a real alpha.
So I wanted to post it on Stacker News.
I wanted to post it on Stacker News because I felt like this goes into
builder's territory.
anyways just want to share that so shout out to brianna the eventu team and then everybody at
btrust and then uh hrf for for sponsoring this that's amazing keep sponsoring it because
we need more women builders it turns out like she was telling me like it turns out they're
women builders actually want to build they just don't feel comfortable building i'd be happy with
just like women in bitcoin or like you're like knowing a woman i guess yeah yeah i mean a lot
of the builders that we have in bitcoin right now that are women they're brilliant so
no but it's so you bring in more yeah it had to be hard i mean i imagine how
i wonder how hard it was to find female builders i mean
there you go do you have any thoughts on this
flip poet
I am a woman
and
hear me roar
do you run with wolves
but yeah that sounds like a cool event
and yeah like I understand
the like being intimidated
at a hackathon
I did participate
in a hackathon once before
at TabConf, and I found it to be a lovely time working with the clams guys.
Would love to do that again.
Haven't been able to catch those guys at, like, well, they were at Startup Day,
so maybe I'll see them at Startup Day.
But anyway, I think that's a cool idea for, like, an event.
I mean, I think it's cool in some ways, and I think it's, like,
it's just like anything to encourage people to like build is cool so yeah
so and then the next post i wanted to bring up was this one um bitcoin builder meetup so
apparently uh this is like started by um gosh what's her name uh at the presidio
I always forget her name.
Yeah, Haley and Steve Lee.
And who else?
Well, they started this like builder campaign to like do more builder meetups.
And initially it started with Miami in San Francisco.
We were already doing Bitcoin Builders Club, but I didn't know they had started that tangentially at the same time.
But more and more people are starting to build builder meetups now.
This is becoming a thing.
There's like a signal group for it.
Vancouver just recently dropped their hat to it.
Austin already has their own Bitcoin builder meetup.
So I just wanted to make a post that's like,
if you don't have a builder meetup,
you should probably think about starting one.
Cause then the next,
the next wave of meetups aren't going to be like green candles going up.
Sorry,
keys,
but it's not going to be like those types of meetups anymore.
Like those are going like,
that's not gonna,
I think that was a 21 thing.
I think that was a 20,
that was a special thing.
this is going to be more, there's a builder wave happening.
And I think it's only going to get,
it's only going to happen even more and more with AI and stuff.
So I just wanted to do a call to action
because I think this was really important
that more builder meetups get created
because we need more builders in Bitcoin.
There's never been a worse time and good time to build on Bitcoin,
but we're severely understaffed.
So anyways.
Yeah, we need to inspire new minds.
yeah so if you're near if you're near a big city and you want to do something
do a builder meetup bitcoin builder meetup and then get with uh how do you say your name
hayley hayley at presidio because she's like helping everybody what happens at a builder meetup
everything everything happens like ours is we're trying to do like a hack and tell
before and then we're trying to do like a fireside but at the san francisco one they're
going through like code and they're going through other stuff um miami's going to be different
vancouver's gonna be different so you just kind of make it work with yours so there's not really
a set design but there is a github if you're interested i didn't link it in here i'll post
that after the show but yeah there's a builder train happening let's do it um the next one is
the ai bitcoin stuff so i just wanted to bring this on because i thought it was funny
Anthropics Claw takes control of a robot dog.
Did you see this, Keon?
No.
Well, apparently
robot dogs are coming.
Hmm.
And not only are they coming,
they're alive.
Look at this thing.
Whoa.
He can do flips.
Don't you want one for Christmas?
Look, they're only $16,000.
Yeah.
Only $16,000.
Don't you want one?
Just walking around.
in your office?
No.
No?
It's not ready for me.
I'm not really an early adopter.
Do you want one of those, Austin?
For that price, I could almost get an H100.
I mean, I might just do that instead.
That's kind of a dumb joke.
But yeah, no.
No, I'm not going to do that.
I'm trying to say I could get one GPU
that can run AI for that price.
what's in H100
I think there's AI
I think there's some form of like AI
processing being done
on the dog
right
because it
you tell it to do things but
it also has to use like its own
thinking in order to follow the commands
I like where you're going with this because the next story is
right where you're thinking Topher
and we'll go with that right now
so the next story I wanted to bring up which is
named after this show title is yon lacoon is leaving meta to launch an ai startup focused
on world models so this was big news so i'm not sure if you guys are you guys know what world
models are i'm almost certain you guys do because you're smarter than me but for the stackers at
home that might not know what more world models are um keon explain it my so my understanding of
A world model is an AI model that has the ability to think about the world kind of as a whole.
They think that LLMs actually create this unintentionally.
It's like a side effect of training them is that they develop an understanding of the world in order to be able to just predict the next word in a sentence.
Yeah, they call it.
That's my understanding of a world model is it's like a very smart model that is sort of, what would you call it?
You have to train it on everything.
It's like you dump like the entire internet into a model.
So it's like a model maybe without a purpose.
I just see like world model as like these are the general models that all the major companies are training.
So if I could interject, and I think where they're kind of going with this, and it kind of makes sense.
Like there's probably a limited amount of, let's just stick with the mountain analogy.
There's only so high you can go up the mountain with an LLM.
And I think the world model, at least from what this guy, he basically got ousted from Facebook because he wanted to do something completely different.
And he was shitting on LLMs basically.
Read the article.
But for what I understand, world models, it's using spatial technology.
It's using like cognitive ability.
And it,
from what he describes here,
it looks like it's going to have some sort of like,
well,
we saw with that dog,
it's going to have some sort of like neural engine of a sort that lives on
the actual robot itself.
So basically it's going to have objective reasoning and some sort of
senses to it.
And then it's going to be a general purpose model,
but like it's going to need for navigating the world.
Yes.
So like you or me, we like walk around and we see all this reality and we know exactly like, oh, if I hit this, it's going to spill.
If I do this, if I smell this, like, but we also have purpose and directive.
We have senses and there's objective reasoning around what we're doing.
And so the world models from what this guy is trying to do is is more of that.
But they're saying like this is like a decade out.
And the only thing that I can understand.
Oh, I see.
the only thing i can understand is kind of like did you ever see ex machina
remember where they put her in a closed environment and they had her like in a
black box basically and she had like some sort of thing and she was talking to that guy because the
guy got her in front of a real human and then he was doing like a turing test on her yeah and then
and then eventually like her directive was just to like escape basically but what was interesting
about that is she was she was doing all the spatial recognition and she was doing all this
kind of world modeling in a controlled environment and i think that's kind of what at least my
understanding is kind of what he's building is something that has an on neural engine of us or
something like that but how you get there i don't know but i think it's freaking cool go for it
okay i personally i i think this is marketing bs and framing like okay what's not bs is the idea
that, okay, let's talk about world model first of all. Already the biggest models, the models
that are competing on the very edge, your CLODs, your GPT-5s, they are already world models in the
sense that they are absorbing literally every, well, first of all, they absorbed all of the data
that they could get. That's like GPT-3.5. Then they started parsing out some of the bad and useless
data, but right, they're still absorbing all the data they can. And we call them large language
models because it's only language okay so already these models are trying to be world models
but what they're speaking to here that's real is that oh but we need to
give it more kinds of data visual data auditory data spatial data it's still words yeah it's still
words so like it's just it's like oh we're gonna do we're gonna train a model just like we were
before but we'll just add new data that's that's not interesting that's just like fancy marketing
framing but then like i think where this does get interesting is where you embody the the reasoning
right because you have this llm it's making decisions based off like instructions it's given
can gather its own data it's like kind of yeah yes if it's embodied if it's in that dog or if it's
and even just a sensor.
It's going to need some sort of like
computer engine, right?
Or some sort of like,
it's going to need a big,
it says developing world models
based on spatial data
versus text.
Exactly, but spatial data is text.
Yeah.
Like it's still a lot,
it's the same thing.
And it's like,
it's not,
because they're talking about world model.
The model is the brain, right?
What would be interesting
or groundbreaking
is if it's actually being put
into an embodied thing or into a sensor.
It's not.
They're just like, oh, we're going to put different data into it now
and teach it how to parse.
You can already teach Claude how to parse any of these data formats,
and it can do it very intelligibly.
And how does it do it?
It does it with language and code.
That's how any of these models will interpret it.
So it's just like, and maybe I'm missing something here.
I don't think the visual data is necessarily text.
I think in a lot of cases, they end up turning it into something that resembles text or tokens.
But I think there are new models that actually take text and turn it into images and then feed that into that as the input into the model.
So it's like, like technically when we look like if I can see an image on a screen, we could say, oh, it's actually text because I can encode it as text if we want to.
But I'm not I'm pretty sure they don't mean that.
I'm pretty sure.
I mean, I don't know.
Maybe he is just.
Well, it is getting encoded and decoded as,
or sorry, encoded as text every time.
Like the LLM is parsing.
I don't think he's saying that he's using an LLM even.
I don't think people who are thinking about,
who are using words like word models
and who are running meta stuff will,
and they're thinking they're going to do something different than meta
are going to just go and use another LLM.
I think he's likely going to be exploring other models that use,
the input is like, it is visual data,
it is sensor data,
or things like that.
That isn't trans-encoded in a text.
Calling them useful
but fundamentally limiting their ability to reason
and playing like humans.
I mean, we've had other models that
don't use the LLM
kind of transformer.
I think you're right about the marketing.
I think you're 100% right, which is why I fell
into a click-like sinker.
But I think the idea that
there's somebody actually now trying to chase after this world modeling and it kind of falls
into the whole spatial computing thing that's coming out next year right with like meta with
snapchat with google it's why everybody's chasing that robo taxi it's why all that is important
right now um so it falls right in line with all that kind of money that's being thrown into the
sectors yeah i guess the point that i'm making is the model or whatever the world model is
not looking at pixels with eyes it is not perceiving through what we would consider senses
therefore the only thing it can perceive through is data that has been fed through as tokens
let me pitch you something though like you remember the wacom tablet like that was x and y
accesses no i don't know what that's what x and y coordinates the wacom the wacom tablet
is x and y coordinates according to car oh oh i haven't looked into the technology in like
20 years but that's like that was probably a different input first or than a sort of data
input then um kind of to give a to give a to give a push back to austin state uh-huh
i i well early ai models were visual like they they were looking llms came later yeah
yeah so i don't know i don't know they're visual but it's all getting parsed down into data text
data data right so i think that yeah like so like classifiers yeah i'm saying text but like all i
mean is like it's character label oh data it's data yeah i think i can kind of see like what
they're getting at here it's like so what was cool about llms is that by doing like this simple
thing of trying to predict the next word you sort of build this like model that has this insight
yeah uh and and we're not quite sure where that insight comes from like how you go from
something so simple like predicting the next word into like having all this deep insight about
humanity just through their language yeah um but like there's humans are just one animal there's
many other animals that don't have language but they do have some sort of insight that they glean
from just existing in the world and so is there a way that you can get insight without language
uh and then like how would you approach that so it could even be four-dimensional because you can
be looking across time maybe i'm a little fuzzy but hear me out it's like i think this whole
segment has been one too many pacificos where they yeah four dimensions i don't know there's
some interesting things that you can do because like yeah it's just a problem that you have to
figure out it's it's just uh be creative enough to figure out how to solve that problem it's not
an unsolvable problem that's what's foolish about it yeah the idea is what's like to me the idea is
interesting because it's like that's that's i think that's the thing there it could also just
be a marketing ploy sure but we're doing this i mean probably nobody thought of before give us
money like it's the same like you you could see a world where it could be a controlled environment
with a trashcan robot making decisions for himself with the directive and understanding
spatial recognition around that controlled environment
yeah it's basically a Roomba i just can't i just can't get past Roomba is amazing
yeah yeah Roomba's try to build like a spatial understanding of its environment
I just can't get over like and maybe this is the stupidest point to have I just can't get over the
point that's like yeah you can give it a sensor that is a camera you can give it a sensor that
listens but the the brain the model is parsing data and so right and then how and then the
question is how does it parse how does it chunk and how does it weight that data right and does
it use any additional tools when you give it when i give it spatial data maybe before it just takes
that into the model it'll run a tool to like simulate the space in like a software environment
and try and have a more intelligible model of the spatial data, right?
But guess what? Still...
It turns into text at the end.
It turns into text, and then it's like the model is still doing the same thing.
You're just like pre-processing it a bunch
and then giving it different kinds of data and teaching it how to pre-process it.
But it's still just doing the same LLM thing.
Give me the tokens, I'll predict the next ones.
So, what the stackers posted this inside the show notes,
and I wanted to read this later, but...
Oh, here we go.
I'm saying world models are an old idea in AI mounting a comeback.
And this was in the show notes.
Let me see if I can find it.
Somebody talk while I find this.
Well, I don't know what to say about these things
because I don't really spend a lot of time on this stuff.
But I think not everything boils down to an LLM, I think, is maybe something that resembles a neural network that has a lot of layers.
I think that is generically what it boils down to.
But we could also boil our brains down to that, more or less.
These models are attempting to model our brains.
So I just don't get the point where it's like, it's only data.
It's like, well, we are perceiving only data and only processing data.
By the time the light that hits our eyes gets into our brain, it's pretty easy to imagine that just as data.
So it's like, I don't get why that's the point.
Well, they're not doing anything new.
They're still taking in data and predicting the next time.
So this is where he says right here, this is what clued me into the thing.
Today's generative AIs appear to learn bags of heuristics, scores of disconnected rules of thumb that can approximate responses to specific scenarios, but don't cohere into a consistent whole.
Some may actually contradict each other.
It's a lot like a parable of the blind man and the elephant,
where each man only touches one part of the animal at a time
and fails to apprehend its full form.
One man feels a trunk and assumes the entire elephant is snake-like.
Another touches a leg and guesses it's more like a tree.
A third grasps the elephant's tail and says it's a rope.
When researchers attempt to recover evidence of a world model from within an LLM,
for example, coherent computational representation of an Othello game board.
They're looking for a whole elephant,
but they find instead as a bit of a snake here,
a chunk of tree there and some rope.
So I think, I think in that scenario, it kind of makes sense, Austin,
that the LLMs aren't going to be able to grab everything.
It looks like it's going to be a big part of it,
but I think this world model is a idea worth pursuing.
That's at least that's where I come on it. Basically is what I'm saying.
i mean i feel i i just once again i just don't see the differentiation like i can do the othello
game with an llm and then what would i do is i would take the best large language model and i
would pre-process the data i would give it a framework for looking at the data as a whole
picture um like this is just how you have good results with llms is like i'm going to give you
a narrow but full scoped model of the world teach you how to perceive it and then give you data
and kind of test you in that world.
Like, all they're saying is like,
oh, well, if I ask Claude about this random principle
and then this random principle, it'll contradict itself.
It's like, yeah, but you can give Claude or ChatGPT,
like, you can go do the pre-processing it
to give it a world, right?
Like, basically my argument,
I think you could turn Claude or ChatGPT
into a world model.
And then we wouldn't be able to tell the difference
between my vibe, you know, pleb hacked world model
and then Meta's world model.
Really, you think if someone went about
to create a world model and created a new architecture
and didn't, which was
distinct from LLMs, they couldn't
produce a world model
more efficiently that had greater
resolution, better predictive power, etc.
Like, obviously,
I can't imagine you think that LLMs
are like the terminus, and there
is going to be nothing better than an LLM
out there, and everything reduces to an LLM.
No, I don't. Which, that's what I would be
for is like a whole new architecture it's like well i think here's an architecture that takes
into account a broad set of data um and doesn't do the same kind of weighting that happens in like
your regular neural net well i would guess someone who's at the bleeding edge leading meta leading
at meta is doing such a thing right like i don't know any more than me i'm just like absolutely and
like that's what i would be looking for but like i've been hearing about world models for the last
three days and i'm like okay but what's the thing i'm waiting to hear the net like the new thing
some acronym or some new training process or some new i think they're looking for they're probably
seeking it and they don't have it yet and i think they're researching it maybe yeah well so there's
already a lot of research into this and i think it was done with video games like video games had a
certain type of algorithm that they would use to build models that are different from llms
and they would they would do this through uh it's called like a genetic algorithm with a fitness
function and the fitness function would be like whether you pass the game or live or die within
the game. And so through many iterations, you could train a model to learn the game and understand
the game world. Yeah. So it understands like a model of the world that it's living in.
But, um, I mean, that's, but it's based upon inputs and outputs. And like, you can't just
like give like you can beam the whole game into the model as an input but at some point you it
like that's not it's too much data like you're just not going to get a good output so you have
to refine it down once you start refining it down you start labeling things you start classifying
things and then you get into like using text to have these text representations of larger concepts
in order to refine the model and actually get a better output out of it so and look at what open
ai was doing in 2018 and 2019 like very very hard i think that was gpt3 they were working on like
what is it league of legends and start like all of these very complicated mobas and building models
to play with it well they even have like 3d worlds where they they simulate the physics
of a real world and then they put the the um the avatars in the world that are run by like uh that
that are being controlled by a model and seeing how they perform,
how they interact with each other, how they interact within the world.
So it's not, it's like, this, it's not like this hasn't been done before.
And so there's like a,
there's a lot of models that are trained just through spatial data,
whether it's like real or virtual.
So I guess, yeah. Like what is like the new thing that they're doing?
Or they are like, yeah, like this isn't a new concept.
so like what are they yeah what's the new paradigm that is better than lm i think that's that's like
austin's point distilled right like you you haven't seen evidence of a new paradigm that is better than
lm that would produce a different yeah result yeah and i mean i'm i'm ignorant i'm ignorant to it and
i'm ignorant to a lot of like the stuff that's going on in in the ai world but i have a very
simple model for how this stuff works and uh you know i feel like people are over complicating it
and when they overcomplicate it,
they lose the fact that it's like,
we have a neural net with weights.
It's just predicting the next token.
And that's still,
we can talk about training processes and data sets
and human reinforced learning
and all the fancy shit they're doing
to make those models better.
But that's what the best model in the world is still doing.
That's what made AI blow up with GPT 3.5.
It's really been, at a high level, it's the same thing.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Good.
stuff i knew this this post was going to be a conversation um that's all the show we got today
ladies and gentlemen we're going to jump into oh wait we got a new micropayment engine what is this
key on oh yeah i i talked about this a while ago i think but uh basically it's i redid stacker
news's guts uh we we had to redo a lot of stuff for the non-custodial switch and a lot of it was
tacked in and this basically reboils it into a coherent stew of code that does everything that
we want it to. That's best I can. That's a stew there. And you see the middle, that's where it's
all mixed up good. And it's a seven set Venn diagram. So, you know, like most Venn diagrams
are like two set Venn diagrams. That's a seven set one. But like I use that like that's how I
kind of think of requirements like software requirements is your like when you're designing
a system you have all these requirements and those are like different colors and then the overlap is
like the is the thing you end up building because it meets all the requirements um yeah but that's
basically what this new system does is it handles all of our non-custodial stuff or custodial stuff
it handles um you know the determining if a payment failed determine if exceeded retries
blah blah blah blah and then all the side effects that you would normally expect of anything you do
on a website yeah so it does all that um and then does a bunch of accounting uh you can actually car
go to your statistics you've been busy that was that took several months uh it was a pain what am
i gonna see here uh with tests with which i just vibed uh and and the migrations i would guess it's
Zero net lines of code, actually.
That would be my guess.
I need to actually do the measurement of it, but it was 15,000 lines.
Hey, that's the Bitcoin ecosystem right there.
I would get zero net.
That's the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Yeah, so if you click on one of your – go up a little bit.
Go to one where it has a lot of entries on the right-hand side.
See that one there?
AR, that one.
Click on that.
So if you scroll down.
Whoa, dude, you did this?
Yeah, so scroll down.
So scroll down so we can see it.
let's log and go huh oh it doesn't go any farther down uh it might break it it might it might crash
everything oh okay anyway but like yeah so this is like all the we're you know this is all the
this is all the stuff now it's like very fine very fine accounting detail of uh everything
that's happening where money is going and coming from finally this is for a post this is for a
transaction this is for a transaction so this is when he posted this he paid this much with cc i
always wondered that i was non-custodial i always wondered like what were you doing back there in the
in the back room yeah and now it's good to know the red thing is is a non-custodial payment
so he made these he paid with a little bit with cowboy credits he had a little bit of
cow cards he had a little bit of roared sets probably from his territory this is awesome
and then he paid a he paid an in a small lightning invoice and that right here uh that's all the way
to the right oh so the inputs are at the top the inputs at the top the outputs are at the bottom
and you can see the split went to rewards that's really cool man went to the his the territory that
he posted it so the green is was that already in his wallet that was reward set so that was like
either territory revenue or from rewards that he had so this is like three from what we could see
three inputs two outputs three inputs two outputs but we can have potentially seven outputs i think
is the maximum we can have because you would have to forward you would have to do five forwards on
your post how far does it go back to rewards pool and then we go to the terror how fast does it go
back to that would be seven yeah but it can have our it can have in outputs really um but the main
point is like all this is the detail is very high like and precise to the millisat um so that we can
do really weird we can start messing around with the incentives a lot more reliably because we like have this much detail to kind of fine tune That cool man I didn even i never looked at the statistics stuff yeah this is i mean a lot of people it also keeps a running tally of like the effect on your balances and stuff um
wow look at that shows when i'm awake so do you when you are invoiced um it's usually when i'm
on stacker news does it spend the cowboy credits first like first it'll spend your cowboy credits
And then whatever, yeah.
Then your wallet balance, then whatever's not covered,
it'll invoice you for that specifically?
Yeah, you don't pay it, then it'll refund the cowboy credits.
I just wondered how much I spent here.
Oh, look at that.
It's a lot.
It was a lot.
I spent a lot this week.
But it's actually pretty manageable.
The code is actually not too complicated, surprisingly.
That's really cool, Keon.
I like this.
Yeah.
it's mostly it's mostly a parody with what the product it's actually not that exciting because
mostly a parody with what the product was before now i see why it's a venn diagram yeah uh but the
main the main point is like this allow this will allow us to do a lot of the things that we've
already planned like how do we how do we allow you to cross post between multiple territories
three territory founders need to be paid oh now you know how and yeah how am i gonna we have to do
all these like the foundation first before you're doing the yeah look at something maybe all those
splits are non-custodial.
You're laying the bass and the drums before you're putting
in the... Now you're ready for
being a Hollywood accountant.
Yes.
I mean, who knows if
the crazy stuff we want to do lands,
but we're at least to be able to do it
now without losing people's mind.
This is cool stuff, man.
Good job. Yeah, that's it.
You're like revolutionizing royalties
without even realizing it.
Yeah, go for it.
I think this is less of a call to action,
a key on,
cause he's just not this kind of guy,
but you know,
where the Bitcoin designers like this,
this needs to be covered.
I think this is really,
really cutting edge.
Interesting.
Both like UI and the way,
the way that you're solving your problem with cowboy credits.
And then the way that you account for it all deal with like royalty payouts,
like Topher saying,
but we're also dealing with lightning.
We're also dealing at the limits of where lightning goes from custodial,
basically credits on a platform to non-custodial real wallets,
real money movements.
And I don't know.
That's really cool.
Like I see lots of like, I don't know, Bitcoin designers,
like look at this stupid new transaction element on this wallet you've never
heard of.
And it's like, bro,
stacker news is out here shipping like some true zero to one uh you know i don't know transaction
insights and accounting um i don't know i just feel it feels really powerful and it feels something
about it feels generic even though i know it's very specific to stacker news but like
that i could steal all your code here and like solve a big problem in the world you could certainly
steal you could steal the design of the of the software like the concept the concept of a state
machine dealing with lightning payments and then doing a bunch of crazy stuff on state transitions
that is definitely something that could be could be taken and applied widely but you know it's just
a state machine doing weird stuff with lightning payments um you know but uh i thought we're
separating money when we see like a separate line here for drive chains oh uh we gotta get
We got to hire Vake.
And once we hire Vake...
I was waiting when that was going to lend.
All right. Cool.
Anyways.
I mean, technically, with
it not being on there, you are
representing drive chains.
Yeah, I mean, yeah. We're doing the best we can
to represent drive chains. There's just no usage
and no money on drive chains.
Dude, that was so funny.
He put you in the...
I didn't even understand that meme.
I didn't understand what that meant.
What day was that in the saloon?
That was the 8th, maybe.
If you go back just two days, I think,
because we had a massive saloon.
The saloon didn't get reposted.
I actually liked the saloon when it was ballooning up like that.
Most people, everyone said they liked it.
It was the one with over 300 comments.
I enjoyed the saloon when it was ballooning up.
Oh, yeah, this is the one that Paul Stork posted.
Yeah, he likes to hit on lightning.
He said, lightning sucks, lightning sucks.
In the middle, he threw Snackernese in there.
I don't understand.
What does that mean?
What is he saying there?
He's saying that dumb people use lightning.
Oh, is that what he's saying?
Yeah, dumb people think that they should use lightning.
Why did he lump you with the rest of these people for?
Because we all use lightning.
Oh, interesting.
I'm surprised he elevated me to...
Yeah, I know.
He, like, put you on the same...
Which I am.
I'm thankful.
I'm generally thankful.
I mean, I think it's a good thing when you start getting...
It's satire these days.
I think he's familiar with us when we first started.
He was a...
Did he say hi to you at TapConf or no?
I did see him at TapConf.
He got off an elevator and we were standing right there.
Did he say hi to you?
And we were all lost together.
No, I think he was buzzing, but he was friendly.
He looked friendly.
He was hanging out with Vake, I think.
Him and Vake are friends.
Why did you choose the most successful implementations of Lightning?
And then you put DriveChain users over time.
Because he says even those are for dumb people.
Zero.
I can't believe no one uses drive-chating.
It's vaporware.
It doesn't exist.
I think it does.
I mean, I think he's implemented it.
I just think no one, like no one's running the fork.
He hasn't successfully got anyone to run the fork.
You think he's, or hasn't developed it at all?
Like hasn't.
Well, it's, I mean, it needs to be adopted in consensus.
Yeah.
So it's like the Bitcoin blockchain doesn't use drive-chains at all.
But what's the reason somebody would use a drive chain, though?
I don't even understand that part.
It's like a separate ledger.
I can understand why people would use eCash.
That settles on the main chain.
But when would I ever do that?
If you wanted Bitcoin to have either different functionality
with very similar UX to on-chain Bitcoin
and inherit the security of Bitcoin's network
because it's getting mined by Bitcoin's miners,
that's kind of the that's kind of the idea behind drive chains but there's you know there are
peculiarities about what it does to mining incentives and what it also um means for the
people who are putting their money in sounds like it's like it sounds like a liquid competitor or
something it is it's more of a side chain thing but it uh it isn't it isn't wrapped like i don't
uh the bitcoin isn't wrapped is my understanding they do but they do lock it up yeah it's it's a
you have to change consensus so that there's this time lock that locks up the bitcoin and uh
so it's like an actual op code yeah it's a stupid name it's a dumb name and it holds it for like
drive change that's a dumb name i think if they try to rob you they it's like six month lock up
or something if the because like 51 of miners try to they can like collaborate to rob you 51 of
miners i think of the side chain can try to rob you but then it gets locked up six months and then
I guess the security model is such that you can like fork out of that.
Oh, like what?
Like the seat.
Yeah.
There's the whole rabbit hole.
You can go down with minor incentives around drive chains.
So let's jump into the YouTube comments.
This was the first one.
I'm trying to figure this out.
Don't they actually provide your keys?
Then how don't you have control of it?
This is from Carlos De Contra.
He was asking about the Wallace Satoshi video that we did.
where one of us said something about not providing keys.
I don remember who said that Probably you Keon Yeah so they might provide But he trying to figure this out what do you mean If they oh they don provide or if they provide you with keys you don control your money
Fundamentally, you're going through Spark
if you're using Wallet of Satoshi
because how they provide non-custodial stuff
is they're using Spark's state chain.
And so really it's, you have to,
unless you have the exit transactions
for your money in Spark's state chain,
you have to ask Spark for permission
to get your money out.
That is my current understanding of the dynamic there.
So even if you have those keys,
mean that you can leave wallet of Satoshi's wallet.
And if Spark lets you, you can still spend your money.
But really you're still, you're still in a relation.
You have a mandatory relationship with Spark,
unless you have your unilateral exit transactions,
which you most likely don't have if you only have your key.
Yeah.
It's like lightning.
You need the channel state.
Yeah.
you need some state i don't it's unlike unlike channel state you don't need all of it um but you
do need the latest state yeah you need the latest state which i don't i'm not even sure i would i
would guess wall of satoshi might not even have it they might be fully trusting spark so i don't
know i think he does have control or he doesn't because he just needs a straight answer here no
they gotta they they gotta be able they gotta be saving at least the latest state from from but
from wallet i think okay well i think he's just asking a straightforward question so can he
withdraw the stats oh you can withdraw the stats i think that's what he's asking yeah it's similar
to lightning like as long as you have the latest state you can just withdraw right yeah and then
he backs up with an email address yeah it's it's more nuanced than than i think we're we're trying
to reduce it too so okay it depends on what you mean by control do you have control under any
circumstance i think he's just trying to yeah i think he's just trying to use it to pay you have
control like you have control of your bitcoin when you when you have the seed phrase to your bitcoin
no so maybe maybe get a coin coin coin card or you know coin kite wallet and then you know do it
that way but lightning do something else if you're really serious about your privacy and sovereignty
you definitely don't have any privacy definitely not privacy but yes if you want to do some cool
stuff. Use that if you want. But yeah, I think that's what he was trying to get at is like,
what did y'all mean by that? Cool. The next one was from Vake. Intellectual property should be
abolished. Wow. This was on the copyright thing. What do you think about that, Coop?
I think that's fair. When I was really into this stuff, when I was like anarchist, libertarian,
did a lot more, spent a lot more time on the philosophy of that stuff, most of what I read
on intellectual property,
like the research on intellectual property
suggested that as much as we think
intellectual property allows people
to benefit from their inventions,
it kind of like stifles other inventions
and ends up being a wash
in terms of the benefit to society at large.
Because like a lot of what people say
in defense of intellectual property
is like when we give people intellectual property
and they can defend it,
they are incentivized to create new things
and therefore because they can get rich from it.
But if we don't have those guardrails, then we won't have those inventions at all because no one will be incentivized.
But apparently they've done studies to the extent that they can do studies on these things and shown that when we lack intellectual property laws, it doesn't really change things because we actually benefit from the lack of intellectual property.
And that idea is kind of diffused more and they can get – more inventors can base their inventions on them.
And so, yeah, I agree that I think intellectual property is –
When did they get invented, I guess?
uh bullshit uh and when did it get invented yeah i would guess industrial revolution is when we
started but did that exacerbate everything or slow everything down as far as like the amount of
i what i'm saying what i'm saying is i think it it probably didn't it probably helped in some ways
and probably hurt in some ways and it's probably probably a wash uh or the most i think we can say
is that it's a wash like either way it would have gone about as well as far as like the output
as far as like the benefit to society as far as something like would manifest in in gdp or
something yeah i don't really i don't really know the answer to this i feel like there's a
correct answer i just don't know so i don't have an opinion because i don't not informed about it
it'd be interesting to see like the scenario where it played out the other way
yeah during the industrial revolution kind of like a philip k dick novel or something
well imagine i don't i'm not going to go out and say it should be one way or another because i don't
know yeah i'm and i'm just sharing what i my experience with it looking at it from one
perspective which is the anarchist perspective which would be fuck this shit uh is the general
anarchist perspective um but you can imagine like the sticker that you want to make maybe you wanted
to sell it maybe it's the sticker of the dog the sticker of the dog say the line the sticker of the
dog like that is intellectual property perhaps making janice so upset by bringing this up like
maybe disney would disney would come after you talking about this or the dog owner would come
after you and they would prevent you from selling that sticker and making money from it because it's
like their intellectual property and so you like you can imagine you'd be free to effectively steal
for the game keon other people's art or not steal but borrow what might be more more accurately
called borrowing so we got this from uh the fountain uh pleb dev what's up zap that's from
blockchain boog boogie uh one jeremy is hilarious that's from blockchain boog ha ha ha cube costume
turned on video in fountain okay boog and then i just said nine nine nine hour days per pay period
car 81 hours every two weeks remember that post where it was like nine nine inch yeah i remember
we couldn't figure it out we couldn't figure it out uh i'm just smart enough to figure it out and
then i'm just supposed to also say salute shorts was great he remembers on salute shorts oh man
you remember that too you remember that too yeah tv show so you can't it's the only one that doesn't
remember that. Was it
Camp Onawanna? We hold you
in our hearts and when we think
about you, you make me wanna
fart.
That's a great one. You're going to the
Top Cowboys.
Baby.
Yeah, I keep forgetting.
Yeah, there you go. Top Cowboys.
Keon, Undisciplined.
Blockchain Boo, Gray Ruby.
Wow, I didn't realize I'm just playing
out to number three already.
yeah go for it wow sensei's been really i would love to give it up for krioto sensei
or however we say your name but we love you and appreciate you and we see you
he is a singaporean teacher he tells us everything about japan that we want to know
he tells us everything about grammar that we want to know um his book reviews he he's intentional
about like being happy and present in the moment and i appreciate that anyway shout out to you
what does stacking since 104 755 mean it's their first item the item number it's our monotonically
increasing item id no tofer is like fake he just comes he just knows the show yeah i i just
every time i open up my stacker news app i'm just logged in anonymously and i just let it rip
uh he's got scores be 117 public enemy end of the mic um kept forward justin shock net
sat wise aardvark uh yeah poet there actually might be a bug that i
might be showing things like scroogey scroogey been making an uh he new right I know I guess he been around for a while Oh wow I keep seeing this zombie thing What was the zombie thing
I don't see it anymore.
What was that?
The zombie, yeah, that was a game that we had over Halloween.
So you, if you hadn't posted in 36 hours or got zapped by someone who was infected,
you would turn into a zombie.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And then Simple Sacker actually submitted a cure.
It submitted a cure as a PR.
and uh did they make a post about this no one made a post about that's so cool that is cool
yeah he submitted a cure as a pr he like state he was because he was trying you you could keep
yourself in getting infected if you had posted like within a certain hour time frame like every
six hours everybody got infected i guess every day your rate your risk of getting infected increase
every day and so he said he set an alarm to wake himself up in the middle of the night to
make sure he would stay immune.
And then in the meantime, he developed a cure
and submitted his PR, which is pretty cool.
So what was the cure?
The cure was if someone themselves was not yet infected
and they zapped you, they would basically inoculate you.
Cure you, wow.
Cure you.
Just like they did in...
Oh, interesting.
Wow, because they were...
So then eventually, there were only 14 people
who were not zombies.
really that's how wide it spread it spread really fast and then you were zombified too i was
zombified like within the first day um and only 14 people were left uh i merged the pr for the
cure i think within a day or two the it was like the majority of people were cured
oh so if you're a zombie you could be cured so we should be a recap on that that was part of how
you can i guess we got one right now wow we want to do some we're thinking of doing something where
it's actually more of a war where um you could get reinfected and so you could kind you could
kind it would just be back and forth and back and forth and you can kind of imagine
no no there was no i definitely didn't like seeing a zombie next to me a badge i didn't
like seeing the badge next to me though that's so cool i prefer not to have it make the general
store man i've been saying it for 14 years at this point now i can just buy the potion i cannot
The ideas that you give me are sometimes a lot of work.
We'll release one.
We'll have a general store.
General store will come eventually.
Every Cowboy West thing has a general store.
The general store will come eventually,
but there are other ideas that you gave me in year one.
Okay.
I still got it.
As long as you got there.
We're getting closer.
We got Socks at 48.
Socks.
When is this release coming out?
It should be.
He said it's pretty much done.
He's mostly cleaning it up.
So I would guess next week we might ship it.
I still need a QA.
It's a lot of code.
But two weeks TM.
We've been saying two weeks TM for about six weeks on that one.
But it's an application within an application.
Like making a really good editor.
He's basically adding like Google Docs inside of Stacker News.
This is an electronic chip.
Working on a WYSIWYG.
oh yeah which is very tricky um yeah like what is what is the benefit of doing that though
for people who don't understand markdown
you forced me to understand work but you're going to understand wussy wig oh yeah well
wizzy wig is what you see is what you get so everyone's anyone who can click buttons on like
hear a screen yeah use a wizzy yeah there it goes but then it breaks it always inevitably breaks it
It can be buggy, but people would prefer that over Markdown.
They don't understand Markdown.
Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was jamming out.
I want to ask a question. Something that I've noticed is
I'm trying to do subscript and it doesn't work anymore.
Subscript doesn't work anymore?
Yeah.
When you do the sub tags?
When I do the tags, it doesn't.
And neither does super.
are you spelling out sub no i mean sub sup okay and then open close i saw socks was using it today
in the saloon so it's still it still works in some context i mean i'm going to the docks
the markdown and i'm like am i doing it right and uh it's okay so it's you're like sighing while
you're like as you were saying that sentence i feel your pain thank you look into it okay
this is a pleb real live pleb bug report yeah wow that was life um that's all the stuff that
we have today on stacker news live keon what are you doing this weekend um oh man i got so many
plans i was thinking of going uh mini surfing it's like mini golf but for surfing any surfing
yeah really inside of a room with the wave machine yeah something like that really small
waves really small board and i just i'm just making up stuff um i knew he was i knew that's
why i was like i know i wanted to come up with something better but that was more believable
you believed me last week i believed with the rabbits and now now you can believe anything i
say not believe yeah go ahead uh here's my suggestion for something you could do with
your weekend um light a candle in your office or something yeah like it's kind of smelly oh okay
what does it smell like like you like maybe you had some good food in there or something and it's
like been a day just kind of sitting out i did have a hamburger okay and that wrapper in my
trash that was in that that's probably that's it but you know it's gotta
you've been in your office too long uh coding up transaction diagrams it's definitely got
a funk in there that'll just i'll probably have to burn some sage really because it's like there's
like a spiritual funk and uh a smell how about you guys what are you guys doing what are you
giving that's right it's giving tomorrow so johnny's making two turkeys and some sides i
just text them everything's according to plan me and tofer went last week to get some drinks oh yeah
and we have a lot of liquor you sure we have any left bar is stopped i mean me and jenna were
drinking work so um yeah well we have some and then um yeah that's what i got going on tomorrow
like i'm making a ham so yeah i was thinking of making a ham too oh are you really yeah you want
to compete i'm just gonna yeah start making hams just so uh but it should be fun i mean we have a
lot of people coming. I've been inviting everybody, so it should be
a lot of fun. Is it a potluck?
Yeah, we have a sign-up form.
Where's the sign-up form? I put it on Slack.
Let's go.
Topher, what are you doing this weekend, Topher?
Club's Give. Oh, wow. There you go.
I'll have to cancel my mini-surfing.
Jana, what are you doing
this week? Are you paddling?
Paddleboarding?
Oh.
Did you go to the book festival last week?
No.
cool
it's the season
I
well
maybe I'll say this later never mind
oh
it's
I don't want to dox it
we can't dox anybody
but there you go you have to wait until next week to hear that
I think that's all I got
you guys got anything else
before we let go of this
oh we're sub 100k
we talked about that oh right yeah we're all poor now we're all in the dumps yeah we're all
our m nav is very low yeah and we're yeah all right snackers have yourself a great weekend
go out there and make friends and key on that