1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,940
live from plan lab in austin texas this is stacker news live

2
00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:26,400
hello ladies and welcome back to another exciting episode of stacker news live my name is

3
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:36,460
car with my bf key on and john carvalho the man the myth the legend john how you been man

4
00:00:36,460 --> 00:00:41,340
i've been very busy very busy winter both personally and professionally

5
00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:47,160
love to hear it how was your week this is where we start off we say how was your week i usually

6
00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:52,260
go to kian but since you're the guest how was your week john well my week started in el salvador so

7
00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:59,920
There was a conference last weekend, and then there was a follow-up kind of tether on-site thing that I stayed for as well.

8
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,760
But now I'm back in Florida visiting family, and then I'm going back to Lisbon next weekend.

9
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:07,720
Nice.

10
00:01:08,060 --> 00:01:08,840
Keon, how was your week?

11
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:10,860
It was good.

12
00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:15,700
I didn't go anywhere except my office and then not my office.

13
00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:21,480
So, yeah, I don't have much of an exciting life.

14
00:01:22,380 --> 00:01:25,760
But I saw some of the stuff from Plan B.

15
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,500
But they didn't do live videos.

16
00:01:30,740 --> 00:01:33,700
Like, I couldn't get access to full talks.

17
00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:35,960
Did they ever release those?

18
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,140
I know that for Plan B and Lugano, they eventually released them afterward.

19
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,580
And I'm sure they'll do the same thing with El Salvador.

20
00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:48,000
or I don't recall, I didn't notice whether they were live streaming.

21
00:01:48,140 --> 00:01:49,880
If they were, it was only the main stage.

22
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,280
And there was also, there was like three other stages and rooms

23
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:55,520
that people were presenting in.

24
00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:57,740
And I think those will come out eventually as well.

25
00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,320
Okay, cool.

26
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,440
Yeah, because I'm always sad when I miss these things

27
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:03,460
and then there's not videos.

28
00:02:03,460 --> 00:02:07,680
But I would love to watch your talk.

29
00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:09,560
I know there was a lot of really cool stuff.

30
00:02:11,380 --> 00:02:12,920
Yeah, the panel we did was fun.

31
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:21,780
It was it was typically it's like, you know, I'm going to be on a Bitcoin panel with Giacomo and, you know, the typical usual suspects and you think it's going to be the same thing.

32
00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:26,180
But this one was I thought it was going to be a generic topic, but they made it pretty interesting.

33
00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:39,800
So it wasn't too bad. And then my presentation was basically trying to get people to like debate me about some of my my more triggering Bitcoin misconceptions that I like to harp about.

34
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,960
and so I did like a 10 minute presentation and just let people ask me questions and challenge me

35
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:51,280
that was kind of fun too not quite as spicy as I thought it would be but fun nonetheless yeah so

36
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,220
let's start there John give us the latest on the because I see that you posted this week on

37
00:02:56,220 --> 00:03:03,380
on Noster versus Pub Key the basics and you know that's hell of a title but but just for the

38
00:03:03,380 --> 00:03:06,960
stackers so the stackers that are listening at home because I mean we have me and Keon don't

39
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:14,160
have any dog in this fight. But what's going on here? And like explain kind of the idea around,

40
00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:21,920
I'm showing the PubKey website right now that has a big badge on. But what is this? And kind of

41
00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:27,280
explain your kind of thesis around it and kind of like that. Sure. So the reason for kind of,

42
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:35,000
I guess, triggering Noster users again, is that during the Plan B conference, we opened up

43
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:42,440
the PubKey app or the web app to everybody. We added a little gateway to prevent spammers because

44
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:48,140
it comes with free hosting. And so we added that so anybody could get in now. Before it was

45
00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:52,160
previously invite code only and you basically had to ask somebody on our team to get in.

46
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,700
We were pretty open about it, but it's a lot of friction. And so now is the first time that people

47
00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:03,760
can just walk into the site and look around very easily. And so the reason why I bring up the,

48
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:09,200
What is the difference between Noster and PubKey thing is because I'm a Bitcoiner.

49
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,800
Everybody I know mostly is a Bitcoiner.

50
00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:23,240
And so right now, Bitcoiners, the only thing they're interested in as far as saving the web and fixing the web or fixing identity, any of these topics, is now attached to Noster.

51
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:33,780
And unfortunately, I think in a way that is like they think they need to be toxic maximalists about every protocol now because that's how Bitcoin trained them.

52
00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:41,700
And so inevitably, I can't even say anything about PubKey on Noster or to a Noster user without them saying, well, Noster is better because of this.

53
00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:43,180
PubKey is bad because of that.

54
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,800
But all of their criticisms are extremely ignorant.

55
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,560
They're not actually researching what our protocol is made out of, how it works.

56
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,260
They're just assuming it's worse because it's not Nostra.

57
00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:55,800
It's like, you know, everything is a shit coin with Bitcoin.

58
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,160
And they're applying the same methodology.

59
00:04:58,380 --> 00:05:06,800
And so I tried to update an article that I actually made, I don't know, maybe four or five months ago that was similar.

60
00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:08,120
It was AI generated.

61
00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:12,000
I tried to make a better version of it this time just because people are going to keep asking.

62
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,820
So I know I need to have something to anchor to.

63
00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:15,340
I don't consider it.

64
00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:16,340
You mentioned like a fight.

65
00:05:16,340 --> 00:05:29,180
I try not to look at it that way so much as I have no issue, you know, triggering or trolling NOSR users that are extremely ignorant and rude and making no effort to do any sort of critical discourse.

66
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,600
I'll give it back to them, no problem.

67
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:43,060
But I think it's a lost cause to try to pretend that I'm going to take this entrenched, you know, tribe and say, hey, throw your whole identity away and use my thing.

68
00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:46,000
You know, I don't think that's the game to play.

69
00:05:46,340 --> 00:05:47,780
I think we have bigger fish to fry.

70
00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:51,620
I mean, we have tens of millions of users on Blue Sky,

71
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,960
more people using X and loving it than ever,

72
00:05:55,060 --> 00:05:56,660
no matter how much they want to clean about the algo,

73
00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,240
they're sucked right into it.

74
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,000
So there's much bigger fish to fry on social.

75
00:06:01,460 --> 00:06:03,340
And in the end, that's not even our main goal.

76
00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:05,800
Our main goal is this whole atomic economy idea

77
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:11,500
and bringing user-first web and markets to reality.

78
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,160
Yeah, so explain that kind of atomic goal,

79
00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:16,160
because we talked about it before on other podcasts,

80
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:21,820
But like just for the stackers that are listening, like, do you see like one protocol wins it all type of thing?

81
00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:26,320
Or are you kind of more thinking about like, no, we can all play in the same kind of Bitcoin or sandbox?

82
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:35,460
Well, I mean, in the end, certain people will not use multiple protocols for certain things and they will for other things.

83
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,960
And so the one true protocol thing, well, even it's even incorrect with Bitcoin, right?

84
00:06:40,980 --> 00:06:45,140
Like since the invention of Bitcoin, we've had more protocols than ever, more monies than ever.

85
00:06:45,140 --> 00:06:51,900
the hyper-Bitconization idea is not really sound, right? And even now, what are you on? We're on

86
00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:56,120
Stacker News, we're on Nostra, we're on PubKey, we're on X, we're on Instagram, we're on TikTok.

87
00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,900
There's not one network, right? It's just sort of like a trend where people really want to go,

88
00:07:02,260 --> 00:07:06,740
where they can connect with either solving the problems they're trying to solve or with the

89
00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:11,020
people they're trying to connect with or the ideas, data they're trying to connect with.

90
00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:35,560
And so the atomic economy is an idea. It's almost like a civic engineering project. It's trying to say, what is the lowest common denominator of how humans interact? And how do we map that digitally? How do we make sure people can figure out intentionally how to manage trust, intentionally how to choose which people they do or don't do business with? What is a mutual rule set for marketplaces, things like this.

91
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:44,940
So we can take advantage of centralized things at scale when we need to, but we can fall back to peer to peer when that becomes hostile.

92
00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:55,160
And that's why we have this concept of a credible exit, which is everything we do in this whole ecosystem of stuff that we're building has to be able to revert to user control.

93
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,440
So like with Lightning, you have to be able to enforce your own channel.

94
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:11,340
With your PubKey key, even if your server centers you, you have to be able to just update your DNS record, which is actually a public key domain that we use, I mean, DHT, and just change your server.

95
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,680
And then you have perfect continuity.

96
00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:15,100
You don't lose your followers.

97
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:16,140
You don't lose your history.

98
00:08:16,860 --> 00:08:18,280
Your data is yours.

99
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,520
It's just that if you opt into, you can have somebody else host it for you.

100
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:39,600
And so this is a much more practical, scalable approach to censorship resistance, you know, decentralized web, etc. And so I see it as strict improvement to an attempt like Noster, but other people might see it differently because I'm trying to do something.

101
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,200
Nostar is a subset of what we're trying to do.

102
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:44,920
And so I'm trying to make sure we could,

103
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,320
if we wanted to, we could do pubkey exactly how Nostar is.

104
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,480
We could do like signing every message

105
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,420
and using relays and yada, yada.

106
00:08:52,420 --> 00:08:55,640
But the problem is that the rest of the design

107
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,420
makes that kind of obsolete and less unnecessary.

108
00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:00,040
And that's why those things aren't there

109
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,500
is because in our opinion,

110
00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,640
we figured out more practical ways to solve these problems.

111
00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:08,720
Are you, do you want me to?

112
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:09,560
Yeah, yeah, if you have any.

113
00:09:09,860 --> 00:09:12,780
Well, I think this all sounds good.

114
00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:17,040
I think there are, you can see people doing pub key-like things,

115
00:09:17,660 --> 00:09:20,780
at least topologically in Noster,

116
00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:23,840
where things are effectively pub key,

117
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,940
how I imagine pub key is shaped,

118
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,800
where there's really only a handful of relays people are using,

119
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:30,920
but you have this credible exit.

120
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:36,840
And that's kind of the basis on which people claim censorship resistance

121
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,560
or data ownership.

122
00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:49,740
And so I see the similarities there and why pretend that everyone's not using a few relays and get some U.S. improvements.

123
00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:54,580
Why pretend and ignore how that could go wrong as well?

124
00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:02,900
At scale, what will happen is it will look just – I think this is like a saying I have is everything looks the same at scale.

125
00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:03,580
You know what I mean?

126
00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:06,780
Like if you zoom out far enough, it will just resemble.

127
00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:14,620
Like if lightning were to take over the whole world and actually like overcome Visa, it would probably look just like Visa when it did.

128
00:10:14,860 --> 00:10:15,340
You know what I mean?

129
00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:16,960
It would be extremely trusted.

130
00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:17,720
They'd have credit.

131
00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:21,880
They'd have ways to, you know, cancel transactions.

132
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,460
They'd have it all look the same because that's what it takes to get to scale.

133
00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:37,400
And what I've learned in recent years is, and what I'm trying to teach my peers, which has been very difficult, is that scaling, when it comes to digital stuff, it is trust.

134
00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:41,060
Like, what you're actually trying to do is figure out how to apply trust.

135
00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:52,020
And so we're more interested in, like, you may have noticed I'm kind of having a lightning breakup moment for the past two years while still supporting it in our technology.

136
00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:57,360
and it's mostly just because I understand it a lot better and I think oh if the whole useful

137
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,780
thing we're doing on lightning is basically coordinating trust why don't we just make

138
00:11:01,780 --> 00:11:07,560
a protocol that just coordinates trust and so we're trying to basically demonstrate what

139
00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:13,680
happens if we distill down the actual use cases that are within all this complexity

140
00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:19,620
and try to remove the stuff that's actually redundant okay yeah I think that's I think

141
00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:26,460
that's really cool. Another thing I was curious about is what's changed, I guess, from, I

142
00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:30,700
think you said you wrote, I saw something recently where you said you kind of redid everything.

143
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:37,140
And I'm wondering, are there some bigger picture things that have changed, or is it mostly

144
00:11:37,140 --> 00:11:42,640
sort of a refactoring or detail polishing type thing that happened?

145
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:50,100
Well, in regards to the PubKey versus Noster article, I would just say it was very low effort originally.

146
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,160
Like I literally made a post in PubKey and said, hey, here's an AI generated comparison.

147
00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:57,440
And I didn't even like review it.

148
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,840
And this time I went in and kind of hand edited everything.

149
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,580
And I actually used like an AI is much more advanced now.

150
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,420
And I actually used like repos, you know what I mean?

151
00:12:07,420 --> 00:12:12,220
inside of cursor and none of this kind of thing where it's like it's it's much less likely to have

152
00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:18,460
slop in there especially because i hand reviewed it and i just was trying to balance between

153
00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:23,580
something that a normal you know bitcoin or a normal nasa user would read and something that

154
00:12:23,580 --> 00:12:28,460
a more technical builder would expect to be like well this guy's making claims what's he talking

155
00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:34,540
about and so i tried to bridge the gap as far as like what's changed about maybe the atomic economy

156
00:12:34,540 --> 00:12:40,380
vision or the pub key protocol and stuff like this well you probably recall going back to when

157
00:12:40,380 --> 00:12:45,980
it was called slash tags um that was a whole different iteration of attempting to do this

158
00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:52,060
that probably resembled monster even more because it was more early stage but what happened mainly

159
00:12:52,060 --> 00:12:56,540
was different between slash tags and puppy is just actually figuring out how to handle problems that

160
00:12:56,540 --> 00:13:02,220
we didn't figure out yet back then like how are you actually going to have discovery oh well

161
00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:06,920
Originally, we were playing with HyperCore and Pen Logs and this thing.

162
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:12,420
That was way too complex for the vision we had for how to fix things.

163
00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:19,300
And then we kind of figured out, hey, we can just do what we're trying to do in HyperSwarm DHT, in mainline DHT,

164
00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:26,680
and we can get the benefit of tens of millions of nodes in a network that, like, it's literally the most decentralized network on the planet.

165
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:28,780
I have found nobody that can argue that.

166
00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:35,520
Like it's the best example of a censorship resistant, massively decentralized and distributed network.

167
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,080
Like how do you compete with that when you say, oh, I put my, that's where I put my DNS records.

168
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:42,060
It's like, okay.

169
00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:44,040
And only my key can do it.

170
00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:49,200
Like you can't really compete with that as far as the narratives we're all trying to convey.

171
00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:56,700
And so that's the main difference is having an actual route for a discovery method and then finding.

172
00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:01,980
And then the second aspect is instead of making claims about Web of Trust and that being important

173
00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:07,520
to me, having a first iteration of that as well through this semantic social graph concept,

174
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,700
which we also incorporate into the indexing aspect of PubKey.

175
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:12,700
Okay.

176
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:17,280
I think I haven't heard about the semantic social graph part.

177
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,280
That's pretty interesting.

178
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,280
I'd love to look at that.

179
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,040
I remember when I was researching Web of Trust initially, it was, I think you spurred Kevin

180
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,040
to tell me about it.

181
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,380
and I reached out to you and I was like,

182
00:14:26,380 --> 00:14:28,940
hey, what are some examples of Web of Trust

183
00:14:28,940 --> 00:14:29,660
and you helped me out?

184
00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:32,220
So I'm really curious about how that's evolved

185
00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:34,240
and how you're using it in practice.

186
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,060
So I'll be interested to see more of that.

187
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:42,360
So it sounds like you made some architectural simplifications

188
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,640
and then made some advancements

189
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,200
or continued on your roadmap in other ways.

190
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,000
That sounds pretty awesome.

191
00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:54,720
I think the other question I had was around BitKit.

192
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,820
I think I'd seen you tease marketplace.

193
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:05,400
I think a big part of your vision is marketplaces with PubKey,

194
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,620
and I'm curious how some of these pieces connect

195
00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:12,320
and when I can actually buy things on PubKey.

196
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:16,440
To me, when people can buy things on PubKey,

197
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,800
that's version 1.0 of Synonym's vision.

198
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,940
When people say, oh, what are you going to do to get BitKit

199
00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:29,780
to compete with wallet of satoshi i'm like that's not why we made bitkit like we started with bitkit

200
00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:35,540
in the hopes that we could ride like a momentum wave for lightning and then by the time we were

201
00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:40,820
done with the rest we'd have some users of bitkit that we could introduce into what is now pubkey

202
00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:44,900
and now the same thing with pubkey that we have some people using the social features

203
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:50,420
so we'll have some bootstrapping available for when we actually deliver the market features and

204
00:15:50,420 --> 00:15:53,580
And so with BitKit, we just released BitKit 2.0,

205
00:15:53,660 --> 00:15:55,600
which was a complete rewrite of the entire app.

206
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,160
Formerly it was React Native,

207
00:15:57,340 --> 00:16:00,140
shipped for both operating systems on mobile,

208
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,660
but now it's native for both operating systems.

209
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:03,660
Two new apps.

210
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:05,980
It took us a long time, a lot of work,

211
00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:07,260
but those were just launched.

212
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:09,900
And so the next phases are,

213
00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:12,840
so as you guys may have heard,

214
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,860
Vibe coding is a big deal right now.

215
00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:18,020
It's called Ingentic Engineering now, John.

216
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:19,320
Guess what?

217
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:25,880
i'm a developer now um and so instead of taking a vacation this winter i spent six weeks in a rabbit

218
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:34,920
hole basically doing the r d for the entire next phase of stuff and so i made a noise library that

219
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:41,400
one snow noise for pub key keys i made pay kit which maybe you guys may have heard me talk about

220
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:49,400
in the past or slash pay as a former concept. And so this is basically a superficial payment

221
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:55,480
protocol. So it's a payment protocol that's only for keys. And it has all of the use cases you

222
00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:02,760
would want for payment protocols, subscriptions, payment requests, etc. Except that it's for any

223
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:08,360
payment protocol. So it could be for legacy Bitcoin, Lightning, it could be for Liquid,

224
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:13,400
it could be for Ethereum, it could be PayPal. It doesn't matter. You just have to make a plugin

225
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,440
that handles the requests for that payment method. And you just have to include that payment method

226
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,960
within your endpoints. And applications can basically match whatever methods they have in

227
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:29,320
common by order of preference in the background. So the user experience can be much like a unified

228
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,440
checkout flow where the checkout flow can actually be in the wallet. So you can have all the metadata,

229
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,580
You can have invoice data, et cetera.

230
00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:43,440
And it's all handled on this payment protocol that is superficial to the actual settlement protocols.

231
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:49,040
And so it kind of makes payments possible for peer-to-peer in an extensible way.

232
00:17:49,800 --> 00:18:02,640
And so the idea there is that I can't predict whether Lightning will still be here in five years or whether ARK will be the next big thing or Spark will be the next big thing or eCash or Cashew or all over here.

233
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:03,280
All these things.

234
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,680
we're inventing new protocols and nobody cares that they're literally impossible to bootstrap,

235
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,660
but we're going to keep throwing away the old one and making a new one. And so I think,

236
00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:16,260
okay, well, why don't we just do this on a superficial level? And so we can keep swapping

237
00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:21,500
out what's underneath. And so that's the idea with PayKit. And the reason I'm laying this

238
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:26,900
foundation for you is that that's the middle requirement for the final step, which is what

239
00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:31,520
we call pub key locks. And pub key locks are going to be a way of using all of these, this

240
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,700
encryption schemes within PayKit, within the noise keys

241
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:38,120
that are delegated from your ID key.

242
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,080
So this way you can keep your, no matter what you do,

243
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,360
you can always keep your main identity cold,

244
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:44,160
but you can now have delegated sessions,

245
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,640
delegated application keys, delegated private noise keys

246
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,420
to accomplish all of your different use cases.

247
00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:56,420
And so the final stage of 1.0 of the atomic economy

248
00:18:56,420 --> 00:19:01,780
economy would be having the first few lock types capable.

249
00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:07,320
So a PubKey user can say, okay, you guys may recall when I did the podcast, The Biz,

250
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,920
and I had the crowd walls.

251
00:19:10,580 --> 00:19:17,140
And so we'll have, that was a way too early taste of what I'm trying to do here.

252
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,680
And so if you want, you'll be able to lock your post with a crowd wall.

253
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,800
You can lock your posts with a pay-per-view, with a membership, with a tag, with a password,

254
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,380
all these different things that are going to be peer-to-peer.

255
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:36,580
So the payments happen peer-to-peer, but the home server is trusted to deliver the data in the end.

256
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:41,680
And so if you don't want to trust the home server in that aspect, if you don't need the scale,

257
00:19:41,860 --> 00:19:43,300
you could then host it yourself instead.

258
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:48,240
So it allows fully peer-to-peer coordination, fully coordination of payment types,

259
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:55,980
coordination of data, of URLs, of keys, of people, of all aspects of the e-commerce flow.

260
00:19:56,580 --> 00:20:02,600
And so then once we can lay that foundation, BitKit users will be able to pay things in

261
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:08,460
PubKey applications, any PubKey application, not just the ones that we create, from any

262
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:11,500
wallet that supports PayKit, not just our wallet.

263
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:16,280
And so all of this is meant to be like fully open protocol solution for anybody.

264
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,780
And so, yeah, that's the kind of rant of what the next stage is for us.

265
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:25,780
I would say before the middle of the year, you should see that.

266
00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:27,780
Okay, that's exciting.

267
00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:29,780
Yeah, that sounds really cool, actually.

268
00:20:29,780 --> 00:20:38,280
Okay, so one of the parts of the new rollout of BitKit are that you have made them native,

269
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:44,280
you added PayKit, and then I guess some of these, some identity delegation to them.

270
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:56,838
Is there anything else that changed in Bitkit since the last iteration when I had the React Native version Smaller things Obviously now that it native it going to be much snappier and fast

271
00:20:57,558 --> 00:21:02,278
LDK Node is still the Node inside and they've made a lot of updates over the past year as well.

272
00:21:02,278 --> 00:21:09,878
But we've mostly kept the old Bitkit up to date with those. Now you can do wake to pay is the

273
00:21:09,878 --> 00:21:15,538
the biggest thing. So a big reason for adding the native was to have better control of the

274
00:21:15,538 --> 00:21:19,978
notification servers and capabilities there. And so now, for example, in Android, in any

275
00:21:19,978 --> 00:21:24,718
situation, if you have BitKit in the background and you get receiving a payment, it will receive

276
00:21:24,718 --> 00:21:29,578
it. So you don't have to worry about whether the app is open at the moment. You don't need

277
00:21:29,578 --> 00:21:35,498
the node to be live at that very moment. It's more restricted in iOS. This was a big disappointment

278
00:21:35,498 --> 00:21:40,718
for us because when we had to go actually use it in iOS, we realized there's a pretty

279
00:21:40,718 --> 00:21:44,938
low data size for what they'll allow to open the background.

280
00:21:44,938 --> 00:21:50,458
And that data size is basically like a little bit smaller than LDK itself.

281
00:21:50,458 --> 00:21:55,638
And so there's just no way to actually wake the LDK node in the background.

282
00:21:55,638 --> 00:21:57,738
We have ideas about how to mitigate that.

283
00:21:57,738 --> 00:21:58,858
We've already started some of those.

284
00:21:58,858 --> 00:22:04,218
So you do see some advantages from the notification server, but nothing like you would in Android

285
00:22:04,218 --> 00:22:05,218
yet.

286
00:22:05,218 --> 00:22:07,878
So that's the main thing.

287
00:22:07,878 --> 00:22:11,398
And we added Bitcoin maps to it as well.

288
00:22:11,398 --> 00:22:12,598
That's a new feature.

289
00:22:12,598 --> 00:22:15,618
And maybe a couple other small things like that.

290
00:22:15,618 --> 00:22:16,938
OK, that's cool.

291
00:22:16,938 --> 00:22:18,938
Yeah, I think there, I don't know,

292
00:22:18,938 --> 00:22:22,458
does anyone else make this work on iOS yet?

293
00:22:22,458 --> 00:22:23,578
I don't know.

294
00:22:23,578 --> 00:22:24,398
I haven't.

295
00:22:24,398 --> 00:22:26,878
No, I mean, the closest, I think, well,

296
00:22:26,878 --> 00:22:30,398
I know that I haven't used Phoenix this intensively,

297
00:22:30,398 --> 00:22:32,218
but I know that they have splicing

298
00:22:32,218 --> 00:22:34,218
and they do swaps and such.

299
00:22:34,218 --> 00:22:36,678
They have all the most advanced Lightning features

300
00:22:36,678 --> 00:22:39,898
because they're basically the best at Lightning Protocol stuff.

301
00:22:39,898 --> 00:22:42,198
But I don't know what, obviously they have the same limit,

302
00:22:42,198 --> 00:22:42,738
right?

303
00:22:42,738 --> 00:22:46,098
And so maybe they have a light version of the node.

304
00:22:46,098 --> 00:22:49,318
I haven't looked into how we achieve what they do

305
00:22:49,318 --> 00:22:52,218
or don't achieve because in the end, we're limited.

306
00:22:52,218 --> 00:22:54,918
We can't mimic what they're doing unless we just fork

307
00:22:54,918 --> 00:22:56,218
their wallet and run their wallet.

308
00:22:56,218 --> 00:22:58,278
And so, yeah.

309
00:22:58,278 --> 00:23:02,658
Yeah, they have the most senior, most advanced Lightning

310
00:23:02,658 --> 00:23:03,758
wallet team.

311
00:23:03,758 --> 00:23:05,598
Oh yeah, I respect those guys a lot.

312
00:23:05,718 --> 00:23:07,598
You know, people say, oh, you're competing with Phoenix.

313
00:23:07,718 --> 00:23:08,858
How are you going to compete with Phoenix?

314
00:23:08,938 --> 00:23:09,978
You need to get splicing in there.

315
00:23:10,058 --> 00:23:12,698
I'm like, splicing is just like not happening in our stack.

316
00:23:12,838 --> 00:23:13,958
Like L&D doesn't care.

317
00:23:14,538 --> 00:23:18,238
LDK cares, but it doesn't matter because our LSP node is L&D.

318
00:23:18,238 --> 00:23:23,118
And LDK doesn't even have a production node for LSPs.

319
00:23:23,518 --> 00:23:28,098
And people like to complain about their Lightning wallet,

320
00:23:28,218 --> 00:23:31,078
whether it's ours or Phoenix's or Zeus.

321
00:23:31,298 --> 00:23:33,058
They like to complain when it goes wrong,

322
00:23:33,058 --> 00:23:36,178
but they don't realize that most of why they hate lightning is lightning.

323
00:23:36,718 --> 00:23:39,078
It's not, you know, like any one wallet's fault.

324
00:23:39,218 --> 00:23:41,338
It's that we're trying to string together,

325
00:23:41,338 --> 00:23:45,918
like this extremely complex set of things that really don't match that great.

326
00:23:46,618 --> 00:23:52,218
And that's the trade-off is the complexity is going to yield subpar UX

327
00:23:52,218 --> 00:23:55,538
when you compare it to say, wallet of Satoshi in,

328
00:23:56,018 --> 00:23:58,518
well, at least wallet of Satoshi in, you know, trusted mode.

329
00:23:58,698 --> 00:24:01,398
Now they're playing with Spark, but that's a whole other conversation.

330
00:24:03,058 --> 00:24:21,378
Right. John, I love it. I love what you're building. I want to hear more about this protocol thing when you finally get it going. I would love to see how you could throw anything on there, what you were describing. That sounds really incredibly innovative.

331
00:24:21,378 --> 00:24:22,938
I've never heard of anything.

332
00:24:22,938 --> 00:24:25,358
If you're a dev and particularly enthusiastic,

333
00:24:25,778 --> 00:24:30,818
I have forks all in my Bitcoin error log account in GitHub.

334
00:24:31,458 --> 00:24:35,458
And so there's actually working forks of noise pay kit

335
00:24:35,458 --> 00:24:39,338
installed in pubkey ring, installed in BitKit.

336
00:24:39,738 --> 00:24:42,978
I got this all strung together by coding over the winter.

337
00:24:43,658 --> 00:24:46,498
And so I actually tested payment requests

338
00:24:46,498 --> 00:24:49,758
getting successfully delivered across the home server

339
00:24:49,758 --> 00:24:50,558
and stuff like this.

340
00:24:50,558 --> 00:24:55,058
So the proof of concept has been complete,

341
00:24:55,058 --> 00:24:57,078
which has revealed all of the questions

342
00:24:57,078 --> 00:24:59,238
we need to ask ourselves to do it properly.

343
00:24:59,238 --> 00:25:00,378
And so now we're going back

344
00:25:00,378 --> 00:25:02,798
and sewing everything up to do it properly.

345
00:25:02,798 --> 00:25:06,138
So I don't know how long it will take to clean up my mess

346
00:25:06,138 --> 00:25:10,098
because obviously I'm not a trained engineer.

347
00:25:10,098 --> 00:25:12,178
I'm relying on the AI half the time,

348
00:25:12,178 --> 00:25:14,058
but so far it's not as bad as I thought.

349
00:25:14,058 --> 00:25:16,978
So far it's somewhat useful to the devs

350
00:25:16,978 --> 00:25:18,678
and definitely useful to discourse.

351
00:25:18,678 --> 00:25:37,458
So it's been a really interesting learning experience to be able to go from having my hands tied and having to hire people all the time to express my ideas to now I can do the whole hardest early stage stuff alone and then I can become much more prepared to show my idea.

352
00:25:37,458 --> 00:25:39,678
I can say, oh, I did all this.

353
00:25:39,918 --> 00:25:43,418
For example, a huge learning for me was it was just so complex.

354
00:25:43,558 --> 00:25:44,618
It was just so much work.

355
00:25:44,678 --> 00:25:48,518
I thought to myself, wow, I thought these guys could do this without AI

356
00:25:48,518 --> 00:25:51,398
in maybe three, four months, but no way.

357
00:25:51,598 --> 00:25:54,058
After I had my hands in it, I was like, whoa,

358
00:25:54,458 --> 00:25:56,398
I don't know how we would do this without AI.

359
00:25:56,538 --> 00:25:57,378
It's so much.

360
00:25:58,518 --> 00:26:00,078
Yeah, it's almost like it's become like,

361
00:26:00,578 --> 00:26:01,978
I was talking to Kian about this this week,

362
00:26:02,118 --> 00:26:06,118
like you're kind of like an architect of what you're building now

363
00:26:06,118 --> 00:26:10,178
and you have more of a managing kind of like a symphony of a sorts.

364
00:26:10,378 --> 00:26:14,558
It's a really cool place to be if you're somebody who has amazing,

365
00:26:14,718 --> 00:26:16,618
different creative visions.

366
00:26:16,858 --> 00:26:19,578
And I know you're somebody that has always been that way since I've known him.

367
00:26:20,078 --> 00:26:24,538
I literally used choreography and coordinating orchestra today

368
00:26:24,538 --> 00:26:25,578
when talking to other people.

369
00:26:25,798 --> 00:26:29,358
It's very much the situation that AI is moving the work

370
00:26:29,358 --> 00:26:32,078
from the middle to the sandwich bread.

371
00:26:32,298 --> 00:26:34,878
You have to focus on spec, on planning.

372
00:26:34,878 --> 00:26:37,478
You have to focus on review, on production.

373
00:26:37,658 --> 00:26:39,278
That's where you need all the eyeballs.

374
00:26:39,958 --> 00:26:46,218
The meat of it, you know, it's just responsible usage of AI, like making sure you have, you

375
00:26:46,218 --> 00:26:48,898
know, proper review processes before you show it.

376
00:26:49,098 --> 00:26:53,698
Like there's no reason, like, for example, I am not a dev, but I have learned my own

377
00:26:53,698 --> 00:26:58,218
standard of I would never submit a PR that I hadn't built and proven, you know, already

378
00:26:58,218 --> 00:27:00,158
worked myself because I know I can do it now.

379
00:27:00,258 --> 00:27:03,878
I can just build it locally and I can say, I can show my change and say, oh, looks like

380
00:27:03,878 --> 00:27:04,258
it works.

381
00:27:04,258 --> 00:27:08,958
let me submit the PR. And before that would have been impossible for me, especially.

382
00:27:10,558 --> 00:27:17,178
On that note, I wanted to ask about, I just saw that you hired your 30th team member and you said,

383
00:27:17,318 --> 00:27:23,818
you were mentioning how this feels like it's kind of changing work in general and maybe your

384
00:27:23,818 --> 00:27:30,578
dependency on other people. How do you see the team evolving? Do you, I mean, are you freezing

385
00:27:30,578 --> 00:27:37,698
hiring now at 30 because you're like I can I can double our productivity or 10x our productivity with

386
00:27:37,698 --> 00:27:43,378
of 30 people with the tools available or how do you think about that at all I'm glad you asked

387
00:27:43,378 --> 00:27:50,498
because it's something we're particularly proud of we were keeping our eye a finger on the pulse

388
00:27:50,498 --> 00:27:56,658
of AI from I don't know since a year ago and we were constantly checking and annoying each other

389
00:27:56,658 --> 00:28:02,418
we're trying to use it too early and trying to submit you know make things you know with shittier

390
00:28:02,418 --> 00:28:10,658
ais but sometime around you know q3 q4 everything flipped you know when you had sonnet becoming

391
00:28:10,658 --> 00:28:17,138
actually great and then opus 4 5 being like all right this actually is like extremely powerful

392
00:28:17,138 --> 00:28:22,418
and now we even got new updates this week it was just became very very clear that this was important

393
00:28:22,418 --> 00:28:34,478
And so we've been intentionally enriching the team, intentionally doing knowledge share calls about how the most enthusiastic and productive people in the team using AI are using it.

394
00:28:34,478 --> 00:28:44,318
And so we've always been doing this knowledge share and elevating the team to use AI since a year and particularly accelerating in the past few months.

395
00:28:44,498 --> 00:28:47,358
We have internal calls, just AI calls.

396
00:28:47,538 --> 00:28:49,678
The whole topic is how are you using AI?

397
00:28:49,798 --> 00:28:50,678
Which AI are you using?

398
00:28:50,678 --> 00:29:09,918
What did you stop doing? You know, this kind of thing. We have spreadsheets, what everybody is using, this kind of thing. We've actually started paying everybody's AI costs as well. And so part of our budget now, instead of being for recruiting, is for getting everybody on the team to have ultra plans.

399
00:29:09,918 --> 00:29:28,178
So it's serious business. And to answer your other aspect, yes. After you hire five people in one month, which is pretty much what we did when you factor in vacations and Christmas and everything like this, you just want to stop.

400
00:29:28,178 --> 00:29:35,358
It's like recruiting is a huge distraction. And we finally met our goal for the year one month late, albeit we met it.

401
00:29:35,718 --> 00:29:41,238
But and you're just like, OK, we have to get these five guys acclimated. We have to keep on top of this AI thing.

402
00:29:41,638 --> 00:29:51,458
Now we're going to formalize how we do. Like, in other words, we're going to identify like what the middle is of AI productivity, who's below the middle, raise them to the middle.

403
00:29:51,458 --> 00:29:58,078
And so I'm trying to turn everybody in the team into a powerhouse. Well, internally, I'm saying I want everybody to be a monster.

404
00:29:58,178 --> 00:30:12,398
And so I want to be measuring an X. The least productive person on the team is 3X more productive than they were last year and the most productive is 20X more productive than they were last year.

405
00:30:12,398 --> 00:30:15,298
and we want to close that gap and raise it higher and higher.

406
00:30:15,798 --> 00:30:19,318
And that is, in my opinion, affecting the job market.

407
00:30:19,418 --> 00:30:23,858
Because yes, I feel a lot more confident to stop hiring for a while.

408
00:30:24,038 --> 00:30:27,258
I feel like the only reasons I need to hire now are if somebody leaves

409
00:30:27,258 --> 00:30:30,298
or if we need to hire for real scale.

410
00:30:30,458 --> 00:30:34,878
In other words, okay, we have 25,000 users in PubKey now

411
00:30:34,878 --> 00:30:38,658
and that requires another DevOps, another QA, whatever.

412
00:30:39,258 --> 00:30:41,418
Only needed for scale at this point.

413
00:30:41,418 --> 00:30:44,398
because I think we can keep amplifying the team we have.

414
00:30:44,758 --> 00:30:45,958
And I don't want to fire anybody.

415
00:30:46,198 --> 00:30:48,198
Like that sounds horrible to me.

416
00:30:48,418 --> 00:30:50,238
I want as much power as possible.

417
00:30:50,238 --> 00:30:52,838
So I'm just trying to figure out how to leverage my budget.

418
00:30:53,378 --> 00:30:57,178
So if I can get more leverage from getting my guys to use my AI,

419
00:30:57,438 --> 00:30:59,658
I'm going to do that instead of hiring more people

420
00:30:59,658 --> 00:31:04,118
because the worst part of my job is managing the quantity of people.

421
00:31:04,458 --> 00:31:07,278
It totally distracts me from actually helping,

422
00:31:07,458 --> 00:31:09,838
from actually doing R&D myself.

423
00:31:09,838 --> 00:31:13,738
like now that I know I can, I can lever my ability as well.

424
00:31:14,158 --> 00:31:16,718
I don't want to be in calls. I don't want to be, you know,

425
00:31:16,798 --> 00:31:19,838
dealing with whether to hire this person or whether this person should be

426
00:31:19,838 --> 00:31:20,798
fired. No,

427
00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:24,858
I want to have 30 guys on the team that I can rely on that know what they're

428
00:31:24,858 --> 00:31:26,658
doing. That can be self, you know,

429
00:31:27,038 --> 00:31:31,358
self starting and independent and motivated and all excited about what's

430
00:31:31,358 --> 00:31:35,118
happening with AI. I don't need, you know, to bring in a new guy,

431
00:31:35,498 --> 00:31:39,818
hope that he knows how to use AI, bring him into the team culture.

432
00:31:39,838 --> 00:31:42,058
and constantly do that every month.

433
00:31:42,338 --> 00:31:43,038
No, no, no.

434
00:31:43,198 --> 00:31:44,198
I want to build shit.

435
00:31:44,358 --> 00:31:45,198
I want to ship shit.

436
00:31:45,598 --> 00:31:49,718
And I don't need more than 30 people to do that at this stage, in my opinion.

437
00:31:50,598 --> 00:31:55,258
Yeah, it almost seems like having 30 employees is like the equivalent of,

438
00:31:55,718 --> 00:31:58,298
if they have a bunch of agents and bots working for them,

439
00:31:58,298 --> 00:32:02,298
you probably have like over 200, 500 employees.

440
00:32:03,178 --> 00:32:08,178
I mean, when you start getting systems in place, yes.

441
00:32:08,178 --> 00:32:16,038
I mean, like, because the most aggressive and enthusiastic guys on the team, they're also they're not just trying to figure out how to, like, code faster.

442
00:32:16,218 --> 00:32:19,858
They're trying to figure out how to have an AI team of agents under them.

443
00:32:19,918 --> 00:32:27,858
They're trying to figure out how to, you know, how many how many PRs can they merge per week going from, like, maybe 20 to, like, 200.

444
00:32:28,178 --> 00:32:30,338
Like, this is this is a massive change.

445
00:32:30,778 --> 00:32:33,078
Yeah. Yeah. Cool stuff.

446
00:32:33,078 --> 00:32:36,118
So we're going to jump into the top three stories right now.

447
00:32:36,118 --> 00:32:41,798
John, you can stick around if you want, or you can bounce if you need to during the show.

448
00:32:42,038 --> 00:32:43,458
But we're going to go ahead and do it now.

449
00:32:43,638 --> 00:32:47,118
The number three top story this week is we need QR payments in Colombia.

450
00:32:47,898 --> 00:32:51,558
This is from Perparato in the BitDevs territory.

451
00:32:52,198 --> 00:32:54,938
2,354 sets, 2,100K boost.

452
00:32:55,318 --> 00:32:56,218
Key on.

453
00:32:56,738 --> 00:32:57,198
What's this?

454
00:32:57,818 --> 00:33:03,758
Yeah, I guess Perparato was looking to build something like Square in Colombia.

455
00:33:03,758 --> 00:33:12,118
They were, I guess, they saw all the Square stuff that was going on and that they were, you know, they had activated Bitcoin on the terminals or had an option to activate it there.

456
00:33:12,198 --> 00:33:13,918
And so they were like, how do I get this going?

457
00:33:14,078 --> 00:33:15,078
How do I get this in Colombia?

458
00:33:15,618 --> 00:33:23,878
Because I guess they're already adjusted to paying with QRs as most of the world that is in the United States as, or the Western world in general.

459
00:33:24,898 --> 00:33:29,418
So they were looking to build it and they realized that it was a huge pain in the ass.

460
00:33:29,418 --> 00:33:34,198
and so they kind of didn't end up doing all the regulations and things like that

461
00:33:34,198 --> 00:33:35,358
and the KYC and stuff.

462
00:33:35,518 --> 00:33:40,078
So they kind of put that on pause, but they did build the Lightning Node

463
00:33:40,078 --> 00:33:44,558
as part of that process and then saw PlebQR

464
00:33:44,558 --> 00:33:48,738
and some of the activity on PlebQR, which is this website.

465
00:33:49,158 --> 00:33:51,918
I don't know if it's a movement, but I think they actually have technology

466
00:33:51,918 --> 00:33:54,138
and it's perhaps even a business.

467
00:33:54,858 --> 00:33:58,918
But you go into a merchant in, I think, Thailand,

468
00:33:58,918 --> 00:34:05,118
I believe. You scan a QR code in Thailand, which is like a fiat QR code that most merchants have

469
00:34:05,118 --> 00:34:13,298
there and use a fiat banking system. And then you pay in Bitcoin. And then I guess that QR is then

470
00:34:13,298 --> 00:34:19,758
published to a bunch of takers who, or is it makers? I don't know how these market terms,

471
00:34:19,878 --> 00:34:25,458
but someone with a fiat bank account in Thailand can then pay that payment for you and they get

472
00:34:25,458 --> 00:34:29,258
your Bitcoin for it. And so it's like kind of this, there have been a lot of these over the

473
00:34:29,258 --> 00:34:33,238
years in Bitcoin. I forget the name of a few of them, but a lot of on-chain stuff where you could,

474
00:34:33,538 --> 00:34:38,118
you could submit something you wanted to buy on Amazon. I forget the name of that company,

475
00:34:38,198 --> 00:34:43,298
but Super was a big fan of it. And then someone would, you would, you would pay in Bitcoin and

476
00:34:43,298 --> 00:34:48,678
someone would pay in fiat or gift card for you. So kind of similar thing. He wants that going on

477
00:34:48,678 --> 00:34:55,098
in Columbia. So he was soliciting people to help him work on that. Why not just use like, you know,

478
00:34:55,458 --> 00:34:56,938
like a gift card or something?

479
00:34:58,218 --> 00:34:59,258
Is it because it's fiat?

480
00:34:59,418 --> 00:35:01,858
But I think most of those gift cards take fiat now, don't they?

481
00:35:02,258 --> 00:35:03,878
I don't, I mean, I think you're, you know,

482
00:35:03,938 --> 00:35:05,858
let's say you're in Thailand for, or yeah,

483
00:35:05,898 --> 00:35:07,078
you're in Thailand for like a week.

484
00:35:07,198 --> 00:35:08,938
Are you gonna, okay, you gotta go somewhere,

485
00:35:09,058 --> 00:35:10,098
you gotta get a gift card,

486
00:35:10,158 --> 00:35:12,378
and then you gotta figure out how you pay that gift card

487
00:35:12,378 --> 00:35:14,858
by scanning QR codes and...

488
00:35:14,858 --> 00:35:17,218
John, have you ever ran into something like that before?

489
00:35:18,818 --> 00:35:21,098
Well, I did used to work at BitRefill,

490
00:35:21,358 --> 00:35:24,498
and so I have a lot of experience with gift cards at least.

491
00:35:24,498 --> 00:35:30,258
yeah the issue with gift card is like this is dedicated credit right and so you it doesn't

492
00:35:30,258 --> 00:35:35,378
solve everything the concept solves everything but now you need a gift card for every different

493
00:35:35,378 --> 00:35:39,138
vendor and then you say oh why don't you use a universal gift card well we call that a credit

494
00:35:39,138 --> 00:35:44,978
card um and now you're just talking about the credit system and so i could rant on how i think

495
00:35:44,978 --> 00:35:51,278
the credit system should work but i'll spare you guys do you guys have something similar to this

496
00:35:51,278 --> 00:35:54,818
Like, do you see there being an easier way to solve this problem?

497
00:35:55,278 --> 00:35:59,378
I don't know if you heard what Kian was explaining here, the situation this particular person had.

498
00:35:59,998 --> 00:36:09,178
It was a little tricky for me to distill one problem from it, but it sounds like they need some combination of either, you know, a protocol they can corral Rai on.

499
00:36:09,238 --> 00:36:13,238
So something like PayKit could be interesting if everybody was already using it, which is not true.

500
00:36:13,698 --> 00:36:17,278
Or something like, you know, along the lines of like ZapRite or Flash.

501
00:36:17,278 --> 00:36:20,678
Flash, like they have this kind of payment gateway services,

502
00:36:20,918 --> 00:36:22,058
OpenNode maybe even,

503
00:36:22,178 --> 00:36:25,098
I know they were doing some stuff in El Salvador at one point,

504
00:36:25,478 --> 00:36:27,278
but it sounds like what they need is either,

505
00:36:27,638 --> 00:36:28,198
you know, merchants,

506
00:36:28,438 --> 00:36:31,278
they don't want to deal with all of our new payment protocols

507
00:36:31,278 --> 00:36:32,178
and et cetera.

508
00:36:32,318 --> 00:36:33,618
They just want something that works.

509
00:36:34,038 --> 00:36:35,618
And so they mostly want payment processors.

510
00:36:35,958 --> 00:36:38,038
So if he wants to solve something,

511
00:36:38,338 --> 00:36:41,598
he should just start a company that does it for them.

512
00:36:41,778 --> 00:36:42,218
You know what I mean?

513
00:36:42,258 --> 00:36:44,438
Like, okay, this is an actual payment processor gateway.

514
00:36:44,738 --> 00:36:46,518
We handle the Bitcoin, we handle Lightning,

515
00:36:46,518 --> 00:36:52,038
We hinder the latest whatever, spark, whatever, and then the vendor chooses what they get.

516
00:36:52,278 --> 00:36:53,498
This is what BitPay does.

517
00:36:53,918 --> 00:36:56,398
I think Coinbase had a service like this at one point.

518
00:36:56,818 --> 00:36:58,858
Bitfinex had a service like this at one point.

519
00:36:59,418 --> 00:37:03,958
It's tricky to get off the ground, but a few survivors remain.

520
00:37:04,298 --> 00:37:06,178
So it might be one angle for him.

521
00:37:07,158 --> 00:37:07,278
Yeah.

522
00:37:08,578 --> 00:37:09,018
Cool.

523
00:37:09,138 --> 00:37:10,638
We'll jump into the next top story here.

524
00:37:10,738 --> 00:37:15,538
The number two top story this week is Meet Orange Dev Trader, Bitcoin Repo Deep Dive.

525
00:37:15,538 --> 00:37:17,338
This is from Soru.

526
00:37:17,418 --> 00:37:18,418
Oh, wow, this one's from Soru.

527
00:37:18,698 --> 00:37:20,858
The 11 comments, 4,965 sets.

528
00:37:21,338 --> 00:37:24,858
Keon, is this the orange dashboard one that he was building?

529
00:37:25,318 --> 00:37:25,958
Yeah, yeah.

530
00:37:26,018 --> 00:37:30,558
So I think he published the first version of this, I think, like a year ago or so.

531
00:37:30,878 --> 00:37:33,278
He links to it in the post, but he's updated it.

532
00:37:33,378 --> 00:37:35,818
Now that he has all these agentic coding tools,

533
00:37:35,938 --> 00:37:39,218
he's been able to go farther with it and did more with it.

534
00:37:39,418 --> 00:37:41,598
So he used those tools and extended it.

535
00:37:41,758 --> 00:37:44,958
And so now we have a pretty great dashboard,

536
00:37:44,958 --> 00:37:48,978
much better than you'll find on GitHub itself for contributions to core.

537
00:37:50,118 --> 00:37:53,138
And you can see a lot of activity over time.

538
00:37:53,818 --> 00:37:54,658
There are some of the stats here.

539
00:37:54,858 --> 00:37:58,758
So over the years, we've had 1,200 unique contributors to Bitcoin.

540
00:37:59,458 --> 00:38:02,038
And I was surprised that there's only 500,000 lines of code.

541
00:38:02,238 --> 00:38:04,458
That's pretty lean, actually.

542
00:38:05,878 --> 00:38:06,898
Lots of commits.

543
00:38:07,558 --> 00:38:12,338
You can see some of the trends on the areas where we're committing a lot.

544
00:38:12,338 --> 00:38:15,598
in 2015 there was a huge

545
00:38:15,598 --> 00:38:16,578
we started growing

546
00:38:16,578 --> 00:38:18,818
our test

547
00:38:18,818 --> 00:38:21,658
commits quite a bit. That was like one of the biggest

548
00:38:21,658 --> 00:38:23,598
areas that ended up growing

549
00:38:23,598 --> 00:38:24,218
over the years.

550
00:38:25,598 --> 00:38:27,478
Most of the activity is still there

551
00:38:27,478 --> 00:38:29,258
in addition to

552
00:38:29,258 --> 00:38:30,898
some of the core libs

553
00:38:30,898 --> 00:38:33,018
and

554
00:38:33,018 --> 00:38:35,598
the build

555
00:38:35,598 --> 00:38:37,418
ops have been

556
00:38:37,418 --> 00:38:39,598
updated quite a bit. What were some

557
00:38:39,598 --> 00:38:41,538
of the other things that

558
00:38:41,538 --> 00:38:51,138
I liked in here. 74% of the code is C++. 18% is Python. And then I guess the stat that I find

559
00:38:51,138 --> 00:38:58,498
maybe concerning or interesting is that weekend coding, most of the commits on Bitcoin Core were,

560
00:38:59,118 --> 00:39:04,778
well, 40% of the commits on Bitcoin Core were done over the weekend in the past. And more recently,

561
00:39:05,298 --> 00:39:11,038
it's now at 8%, which suggests that people aren't contributing to Core for fun much anymore.

562
00:39:11,538 --> 00:39:13,538
which is kind of sad.

563
00:39:14,438 --> 00:39:15,878
Is that what you're taking from it?

564
00:39:15,978 --> 00:39:18,198
Or is that because like, yeah,

565
00:39:18,278 --> 00:39:19,818
because like what are they doing during the week, I guess?

566
00:39:20,818 --> 00:39:21,538
That would be my question.

567
00:39:21,918 --> 00:39:24,638
We need a little more info because like it could be

568
00:39:24,638 --> 00:39:27,718
that just a higher percentage of them are paid now, you know,

569
00:39:27,758 --> 00:39:29,938
and so they're getting their work done during the week

570
00:39:29,938 --> 00:39:31,058
because they're paid to do it.

571
00:39:31,438 --> 00:39:32,778
You'd have to like dig in deeper.

572
00:39:32,778 --> 00:39:35,518
But yeah, I would be concerned about either way of that

573
00:39:35,518 --> 00:39:37,018
because if most of them are paid,

574
00:39:37,118 --> 00:39:41,078
that means most of them are now biased to their, you know, funders.

575
00:39:41,078 --> 00:39:43,258
So either way, it's not the best thing.

576
00:39:45,138 --> 00:39:47,738
Yeah, it's just like as a, it's almost like,

577
00:39:48,198 --> 00:39:53,738
it's just a heuristic that is used for like developer interest.

578
00:39:53,738 --> 00:39:55,458
It's like, what are they doing on the weekends?

579
00:39:55,658 --> 00:39:59,578
And if they're not contributing to core, yeah.

580
00:39:59,778 --> 00:40:02,718
But what it means exactly, I don't know.

581
00:40:02,838 --> 00:40:05,978
But it is, I think we're 80% of contributors.

582
00:40:06,238 --> 00:40:09,838
It felt better when it was an environment of guys coding on the weekend,

583
00:40:09,838 --> 00:40:10,438
though, didn't it?

584
00:40:10,438 --> 00:40:11,018
Yeah, yeah.

585
00:40:11,238 --> 00:40:21,118
John, let me ask you this, because you've been around for a really long time in this kind of – and to see where everything has gone here – and we don't have to get polarized or anything unless you want to.

586
00:40:21,118 --> 00:40:32,658
But how do you see it – how do you see the whole Bitcoin core kind of evolution over the course of, like, the past decade or since you've seen it, like, and then to where it is now and then now seeing these stats?

587
00:40:32,918 --> 00:40:34,858
Like, what's your kind of take on it?

588
00:40:34,858 --> 00:40:36,998
I can honestly paint it from any direction.

589
00:40:36,998 --> 00:40:40,838
You know, I can paint it for you how some aspects have become so much better.

590
00:40:41,278 --> 00:40:44,698
Some aspects of how I interact with it are definitely a lot better.

591
00:40:45,018 --> 00:40:51,058
Like I actually got a bit in there a year ago, and I never thought I would have been like my interactions with Core before that.

592
00:40:51,198 --> 00:40:53,718
I thought these guys will never accept anything from me.

593
00:40:53,818 --> 00:40:57,398
Like this is just, you know, the ivory tower, you know, for real.

594
00:40:58,098 --> 00:41:04,178
And over time, you end up kind of meeting a few guys and ended up, you know, not hating each other.

595
00:41:04,178 --> 00:41:08,878
and some of the guys I met happened to be eventually turned into BIP reviewers.

596
00:41:09,538 --> 00:41:11,478
And so like I've known Merch for a while.

597
00:41:11,658 --> 00:41:13,298
I've known John Attic a little bit.

598
00:41:13,778 --> 00:41:15,498
I've known Brian Bishop a bit.

599
00:41:15,878 --> 00:41:18,398
And so it kind of made it like, oh, this guy, you know,

600
00:41:18,398 --> 00:41:21,258
when I came to them with a BIP, they're like, okay, he's serious.

601
00:41:21,538 --> 00:41:24,618
You know, like it's not just John trolling or something.

602
00:41:25,178 --> 00:41:28,598
And so now that's like opened up a whole world for me.

603
00:41:28,658 --> 00:41:31,918
Like I have like probably four or five different BIPs that I'm working on

604
00:41:31,918 --> 00:41:32,938
that I would like to submit.

605
00:41:32,938 --> 00:41:48,056
of increasing technical amount Whereas before it was just purely aesthetic bit So that has changed and made me feel more positive about things from my own interaction

606
00:41:48,056 --> 00:41:54,196
But at the same time, just before that, I went through the whole Mempool full RBF war

607
00:41:54,196 --> 00:41:55,196
almost alone.

608
00:41:55,196 --> 00:41:59,116
It was like me and Sergey and one other guy trying to fight that war.

609
00:41:59,116 --> 00:42:04,016
And that was a real gaslighting experience for me and another big depression point for

610
00:42:04,016 --> 00:42:08,896
me about the state of core. But of course, I have my biases there. You know what I mean?

611
00:42:08,896 --> 00:42:13,776
Other people still think I'm crazy for that. I think I have a totally rational argument for my

612
00:42:13,776 --> 00:42:20,496
behavior. And I think that in the end, now Bitcoin is less useful because of that change. And people

613
00:42:20,496 --> 00:42:26,976
use it for payments less because of that change. Whether that was always destined? Maybe. But then

614
00:42:26,976 --> 00:42:38,156
I will say I don't I don't subscribe to how the Nazis are treating people like Gloria and trying to like turn everything into like a conspiracy.

615
00:42:39,916 --> 00:42:43,516
Albeit conspiracy theorists have a great track record in recent years.

616
00:42:43,716 --> 00:42:47,316
I don't think that Bitcoiners are as good at things as they think they are.

617
00:42:47,656 --> 00:42:49,816
Everybody wants to be the white blood cell.

618
00:42:49,996 --> 00:42:55,636
And like, I don't know, we haven't needed that since, you know, since Roger Ver, honestly.

619
00:42:55,636 --> 00:43:00,636
Ever since then, it's been fake mimicry of pretending something is important when it really isn't.

620
00:43:01,256 --> 00:43:06,716
And I think that the current drama is a big nothing burger, and it's been only a loss.

621
00:43:06,956 --> 00:43:07,356
You know what I mean?

622
00:43:07,416 --> 00:43:14,456
It's been a loss of reputation, fragmentation of Bitcoin culture, corruption of Bitcoin culture, of Bitcoin education.

623
00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:23,036
And so while I don't have a strong stance on specifically what Gloria was working on, like with package relay and all this stuff,

624
00:43:23,036 --> 00:43:37,096
I do think that there was a regime of core that didn't feel like the culture it used to feel. And so I'm a little bit excited, honestly, to see what fills that void. Hopefully it's not something worse.

625
00:43:37,096 --> 00:43:39,676
but I don't know too much about

626
00:43:39,676 --> 00:43:41,716
the circumstances of her leaving

627
00:43:41,716 --> 00:43:43,956
and this kind of thing but there's definitely

628
00:43:43,956 --> 00:43:46,176
a click aspect

629
00:43:46,176 --> 00:43:47,996
to core where you can be

630
00:43:47,996 --> 00:43:50,036
on the outside and if you don't

631
00:43:50,036 --> 00:43:51,236
fit in and

632
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:53,536
stay in the party line

633
00:43:53,536 --> 00:43:55,956
your stuff will be less likely to get

634
00:43:55,956 --> 00:43:57,136
reviewed, your

635
00:43:57,136 --> 00:43:59,756
suggestions will be less likely to be considered

636
00:43:59,756 --> 00:44:01,836
and I've been told this by multiple

637
00:44:01,836 --> 00:44:03,176
core developers in private

638
00:44:03,176 --> 00:44:05,996
and so the culture definitely has degraded

639
00:44:05,996 --> 00:44:10,816
since the former elders have stepped down or, you know, stepped back.

640
00:44:11,236 --> 00:44:16,236
So I think that, yeah, overall I liked it better when it was just, you know,

641
00:44:16,696 --> 00:44:20,016
Vlad, Peter Worley, you know, all the classics, you know,

642
00:44:20,016 --> 00:44:21,016
kind of running the show.

643
00:44:21,196 --> 00:44:23,936
And then it's just become less and less since then.

644
00:44:23,936 --> 00:44:29,756
And so I hope more pragmatic leaders step up, less controversial leaders,

645
00:44:30,076 --> 00:44:34,916
more I think that I would like to see, and sorry for the rant, guys.

646
00:44:35,136 --> 00:44:35,856
No, this is great.

647
00:44:35,996 --> 00:44:42,076
I would like to see a culture shift in core of extreme caution and responsibility.

648
00:44:42,376 --> 00:44:48,056
In other words, admitting that core has more power than it probably should and more trust than it probably should.

649
00:44:48,496 --> 00:44:52,296
And thus treating something like a soft fork as extremely oppressive.

650
00:44:52,296 --> 00:44:57,676
In other words, if we're going to do this, we have to recognize that it's just us and the miners doing this.

651
00:44:58,056 --> 00:45:05,056
And we have to justify that because 99% of Bitcoiners will either not be aware of it or think they're aware,

652
00:45:05,056 --> 00:45:07,436
but really be very ignorant and have dumb takes on it.

653
00:45:07,916 --> 00:45:10,396
And so you have to be like, okay, like we have too much power here.

654
00:45:10,436 --> 00:45:11,516
We have to be very responsible.

655
00:45:11,976 --> 00:45:15,956
We shouldn't be shoving in taproot because nobody actually cared about taproot.

656
00:45:15,976 --> 00:45:18,296
Not because it's good or bad or there aren't good arguments,

657
00:45:18,296 --> 00:45:21,536
but there just wasn't an actual consensus whatsoever.

658
00:45:22,136 --> 00:45:26,036
And so this idea of rough consensus, of building consensus,

659
00:45:26,536 --> 00:45:29,136
I want to see maintainers that don't believe in that.

660
00:45:29,416 --> 00:45:33,656
I want to see maintainers that are like, guys, we shouldn't touch this shit

661
00:45:33,656 --> 00:45:34,876
unless there's something broken.

662
00:45:35,056 --> 00:45:40,816
or making it cheaper for people to use or faster for people to use if we're adding complexity go

663
00:45:40,816 --> 00:45:46,896
somewhere else it should be like taboo to add complexity to add staff works a lot of people

664
00:45:46,896 --> 00:45:51,136
would disagree with me but i think that you need that overton window shift at the very least

665
00:45:52,896 --> 00:45:58,256
so so if the solution is better leadership how do we get better leaders or is

666
00:45:58,256 --> 00:46:06,816
like and if that isn't possible is there another solution um I don't know if I knew I would you

667
00:46:06,816 --> 00:46:11,496
know try to it might be what I'd be doing instead of synonym I don't know I have been joking lately

668
00:46:11,496 --> 00:46:16,576
that for some reason we either finish what I'm doing here and I want to move on to the next thing

669
00:46:16,576 --> 00:46:22,156
or we give up for some reason eventually that I would if I still care enough that I would be very

670
00:46:22,156 --> 00:46:27,616
interested in having like a bitcoin you know project where what we were doing was either

671
00:46:27,616 --> 00:46:33,176
funding or designing a distribution of core or even another implementation.

672
00:46:33,176 --> 00:46:38,376
I'm a big fan of Eric Voskul, as you guys might know, and he works on the Libetcoin

673
00:46:38,376 --> 00:46:42,096
project and I have a lot of hope in that.

674
00:46:42,096 --> 00:46:49,856
But his approach is very, very biased to his views and it's not so much for end user wallets,

675
00:46:49,856 --> 00:46:50,856
this kind of thing.

676
00:46:50,856 --> 00:46:55,436
So you can expect that implementation will be very impressive, but they might not take

677
00:46:55,436 --> 00:46:59,836
the time to make it useful for the normies and this kind of thing because he doesn't like the

678
00:46:59,836 --> 00:47:06,876
humor and so in the end it's taken them years to get there they're only you know creeping in

679
00:47:06,876 --> 00:47:13,996
funding each year and it's just they get blacklisted or talked bad about lycor this kind of

680
00:47:13,996 --> 00:47:18,476
thing so i think you need more competition across implementations and that creates more of a stale

681
00:47:18,476 --> 00:47:23,196
mate right because now you're going to be scared to introduce soft work because you're only 50 of

682
00:47:23,196 --> 00:47:27,016
of the network, you know, and that's the kind of environment I'm looking for.

683
00:47:27,336 --> 00:47:28,456
How do you get those leaders?

684
00:47:32,056 --> 00:47:35,296
Honestly, you just need people to be less stupid.

685
00:47:35,556 --> 00:47:40,016
Like, I don't know how you do that, but, you know, like you have people right now worshiping

686
00:47:40,016 --> 00:47:40,456
sailor.

687
00:47:40,576 --> 00:47:44,776
Most of the people injected into Bitcoin over the past two years have been basically the

688
00:47:44,776 --> 00:47:46,196
equivalent of Ponzi victims.

689
00:47:46,896 --> 00:47:52,156
And so how do you, how is that going to help bolster better Bitcoin core debbs?

690
00:47:52,156 --> 00:47:57,436
it's not you know and now you have sailor talking about he's going to get involved in the quantum

691
00:47:57,436 --> 00:48:04,276
topic and he's going to contribute it's like quote like you know what i mean sometimes i just like i

692
00:48:04,276 --> 00:48:09,316
really feel like man do i even belong here anymore do i even want to help these people anymore because

693
00:48:09,316 --> 00:48:15,876
it's like you you miss you know what it looked like when it was healthy or healthier you know

694
00:48:15,876 --> 00:48:23,396
it looked like when people cared about black market money and drugs and paying for hookers.

695
00:48:23,396 --> 00:48:27,636
Even though that was an extreme joke, I don't care about hookers, I don't care about buying drugs.

696
00:48:27,636 --> 00:48:32,596
I just know that if nobody's using Bitcoin for those things, it's not actually valuable

697
00:48:32,596 --> 00:48:37,236
because we can use anything to speculate. I can speculate on bananas if I want to.

698
00:48:37,236 --> 00:48:42,196
That's not interesting. Pick anything that's limited in quantity and speculate on it.

699
00:48:42,196 --> 00:48:44,836
That's not the interesting part. Sorry for the rant.

700
00:48:44,836 --> 00:49:02,296
No, that's cool. Yeah, that is a hard problem. I think I heard it discussed Bitcoin. I think some of the core people were looking for project managers at one point or product managers. And that might be.

701
00:49:02,296 --> 00:49:07,896
Yeah, I remember like that's something that like Pavlonex would be interested in and get involved in.

702
00:49:08,136 --> 00:49:12,276
But he's doing Stratum stuff and probably still BTC pay service stuff.

703
00:49:12,916 --> 00:49:19,376
But yeah, I mean, that's the thing is I wouldn't I would only be interested in doing something like that if I was hard up.

704
00:49:19,656 --> 00:49:28,116
You know what I mean? If I was like, OK, I need an income and somebody's willing to pay me to be a Bitcoin core project manager, then I would look at it.

705
00:49:28,116 --> 00:49:30,876
But until then, it sounds like hell, man.

706
00:49:30,876 --> 00:49:35,356
Nobody on core agrees on, like, people think that you can coordinate as a core, but the

707
00:49:35,356 --> 00:49:38,056
amount of agreement there is actually very small.

708
00:49:38,056 --> 00:49:43,476
Even within, you know, the venerated core devs, it's not very consistent.

709
00:49:43,476 --> 00:49:46,116
So how do you, like, it's like herding cats, you know what I mean?

710
00:49:46,116 --> 00:49:48,116
Like, that can't be a fun job.

711
00:49:48,116 --> 00:49:52,696
Yeah, someone has to want to be, it's, it's, it's, I think it's just become so political.

712
00:49:52,696 --> 00:49:56,376
Someone has to want to be, like, a political figure.

713
00:49:56,376 --> 00:49:57,376
Someone has to want to be the president.

714
00:49:57,376 --> 00:50:02,636
You need a Linus Torvalds kind of guy to go in there and just be like, get your fucking garbage out of the code.

715
00:50:02,896 --> 00:50:07,376
Get your fucking attitude, your stupid attitudes out of my issues.

716
00:50:07,936 --> 00:50:11,116
You need somebody that's that staunch about things.

717
00:50:11,596 --> 00:50:15,776
I don't see how anybody's going to let somebody with that kind of attitude gain power, though.

718
00:50:16,336 --> 00:50:24,156
Yeah, and I don't think Linus would take up his job had he not grown into it without choosing it.

719
00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:24,976
So, yeah.

720
00:50:26,956 --> 00:50:28,196
It'll be interesting to watch.

721
00:50:28,576 --> 00:50:29,756
I'll be sticking around.

722
00:50:29,836 --> 00:50:32,056
I'm sure a lot of us will still be sticking around watching it.

723
00:50:32,176 --> 00:50:33,956
I mean, I feel like Bitcoin is just so important,

724
00:50:34,216 --> 00:50:35,056
and it's just like this.

725
00:50:36,336 --> 00:50:37,936
It's a lot of things to a lot of people,

726
00:50:38,136 --> 00:50:39,796
but it's worth fighting for.

727
00:50:39,976 --> 00:50:43,796
It's actually worth actually giving a shit about, in my opinion.

728
00:50:43,996 --> 00:50:47,276
And I don't see, like, the real ones leaving anytime soon.

729
00:50:48,776 --> 00:50:50,736
Yeah, the part that sucks is now we have to, like,

730
00:50:50,736 --> 00:50:53,376
try to separate that from the Ponzi side of Bitcoin.

731
00:50:53,376 --> 00:51:04,576
Like how much, what is the underlying health, you know, the underlying heartbeat of Bitcoin when you scrape off Michael Saylor and you scrape off, you know, all of the funds and the VCs?

732
00:51:05,296 --> 00:51:06,236
Are we still healthy?

733
00:51:06,436 --> 00:51:07,756
It's hard to tell now.

734
00:51:08,076 --> 00:51:09,936
You know, it was a lot easier to tell in the past.

735
00:51:11,296 --> 00:51:12,256
Yeah, we'll see.

736
00:51:12,876 --> 00:51:16,856
The next, the number one top story this week is money is a language.

737
00:51:16,976 --> 00:51:17,936
This is from Scoresby.

738
00:51:18,256 --> 00:51:21,396
58 comments, 512 boost, 13,000 stats.

739
00:51:21,396 --> 00:51:23,696
Keon, what's Scoresby talking about this week?

740
00:51:23,836 --> 00:51:26,696
Yeah, Scoresby is still going through Boeskel's crypto economics,

741
00:51:26,816 --> 00:51:31,696
and this one tackles, I think, Boeskel's thoughts on the regression theorem,

742
00:51:31,976 --> 00:51:33,156
or Mises' regression theorem.

743
00:51:33,816 --> 00:51:40,856
But he argues in here that money is effectively a language but with scarcity.

744
00:51:42,496 --> 00:51:45,236
And they both suffer from this regression problem.

745
00:51:45,236 --> 00:51:55,516
So Mises argues that money has value today because it had value yesterday, and it had value yesterday because it had value the day before.

746
00:51:55,716 --> 00:52:07,236
And then I think Rothbard was, I think it was Rothbard who challenged Mises on that and was like, well, that means that there's some day one or some day zero where it wasn't money and what was there.

747
00:52:07,236 --> 00:52:13,616
And Mises said that it had value, it had like utility value, and then it turned into money.

748
00:52:13,616 --> 00:52:15,616
And so that's the regression theorem.

749
00:52:15,756 --> 00:52:17,596
And so I guess we have a similar problem.

750
00:52:18,336 --> 00:52:19,376
It's hard to be the least bit out here.

751
00:52:19,496 --> 00:52:21,016
But we have a similar problem with language,

752
00:52:22,096 --> 00:52:25,116
where a word may have meaning today,

753
00:52:25,796 --> 00:52:28,836
and it has meaning today because it had meaning yesterday.

754
00:52:29,916 --> 00:52:32,276
And then that means there's some day one

755
00:52:32,276 --> 00:52:37,616
where basically something became a word,

756
00:52:37,716 --> 00:52:39,076
where the sound became a word.

757
00:52:40,036 --> 00:52:42,196
And so that means that the day before it,

758
00:52:42,196 --> 00:52:46,256
you had a sound that had inherent meaning

759
00:52:46,256 --> 00:52:48,756
and it had utility

760
00:52:48,756 --> 00:52:52,356
before it was actually formalized as a word

761
00:52:52,356 --> 00:52:53,916
in the same way that we formalize money.

762
00:52:54,016 --> 00:52:57,436
Anyway, so there's something similar

763
00:52:57,436 --> 00:53:00,116
between money and language

764
00:53:00,116 --> 00:53:01,416
in terms of this regression theorem

765
00:53:01,416 --> 00:53:03,136
and there are a few other comparisons

766
00:53:03,136 --> 00:53:05,336
that Scoresby makes

767
00:53:05,336 --> 00:53:07,576
and argues this,

768
00:53:07,736 --> 00:53:11,096
but he's trying to get at the fact that

769
00:53:11,096 --> 00:53:16,516
like language, it maybe doesn't make sense to trace it all the way back to the beginning.

770
00:53:16,796 --> 00:53:18,236
Like, we aren't making sense.

771
00:53:18,376 --> 00:53:21,936
Like, a lot of our words aren't even said anymore.

772
00:53:22,116 --> 00:53:25,856
They're all kind of written, or, you know, we're sending them digitally.

773
00:53:26,056 --> 00:53:31,776
There's, like, all kinds of encodings, and perhaps they don't need this grounding all the way back to something kind of primitive.

774
00:53:32,536 --> 00:53:34,596
And perhaps we're kind of beyond that.

775
00:53:34,596 --> 00:53:38,856
and in here he borrows from

776
00:53:38,856 --> 00:53:42,196
Humberto Eco who says that the only difference between money

777
00:53:42,196 --> 00:53:46,516
and language is that words aren't scarce

778
00:53:46,516 --> 00:53:50,236
and so you can, I don't know if that's true, I haven't

779
00:53:50,236 --> 00:53:54,716
looked, I think you would have to kind of, I would probably need a much larger

780
00:53:54,716 --> 00:53:58,356
argument for that, but it's

781
00:53:58,356 --> 00:54:01,396
plausible, it sounds roughly correct

782
00:54:01,396 --> 00:54:16,876
And so Scoresby concludes that it's really the scarcity, and he points to some other stuff, because other people would argue that Bitcoin did have inherent value earlier, but it was more like collectible value or curiosity value.

783
00:54:16,876 --> 00:54:31,056
And I think I've heard other people argue that it's actually the block space that was valuable, and that's maybe the, if we're subscribed to Mises' thoughts, then maybe that was the initial utility value, the initial utility.

784
00:54:31,396 --> 00:54:40,996
Anyway, all of this is to assist in explaining, unpack Volskol, who is super compressed.

785
00:54:42,736 --> 00:54:51,016
And Volskol argues that Mises doesn't go far enough with the regression.

786
00:54:51,016 --> 00:54:54,816
it assumes

787
00:54:54,816 --> 00:54:56,296
it doesn't explain

788
00:54:56,296 --> 00:54:58,416
how something

789
00:54:58,416 --> 00:55:00,916
gets utility or is valued

790
00:55:00,916 --> 00:55:01,776
for its utility

791
00:55:01,776 --> 00:55:03,876
someone makes an assumption

792
00:55:03,876 --> 00:55:06,796
before that happens someone makes an assumption about the utility

793
00:55:06,796 --> 00:55:09,096
of something and that's what gives it value

794
00:55:09,096 --> 00:55:10,816
and therefore

795
00:55:10,816 --> 00:55:12,756
you could assume the utility

796
00:55:12,756 --> 00:55:14,836
value of anything is money

797
00:55:14,836 --> 00:55:16,616
and turn anything into money

798
00:55:16,616 --> 00:55:18,776
and therefore there's no

799
00:55:18,776 --> 00:55:19,676
there's like no

800
00:55:19,676 --> 00:55:22,056
there's no non-money and money

801
00:55:22,056 --> 00:55:23,076
that could be

802
00:55:23,076 --> 00:55:26,136
distinguished using Mises' reasoning

803
00:55:26,136 --> 00:55:28,496
anyway

804
00:55:28,496 --> 00:55:30,516
that's a lot to say

805
00:55:30,516 --> 00:55:32,176
these things but

806
00:55:32,176 --> 00:55:32,756
it's a

807
00:55:32,756 --> 00:55:35,516
yeah an interesting

808
00:55:35,516 --> 00:55:37,716
an interesting way to look at

809
00:55:37,716 --> 00:55:40,296
I guess for me I've always just looked at

810
00:55:40,296 --> 00:55:42,416
money more like a tool but that same

811
00:55:42,416 --> 00:55:43,936
tool can also be used as a weapon

812
00:55:43,936 --> 00:55:46,276
and even language you could say can be

813
00:55:46,276 --> 00:55:47,056
used as a weapon

814
00:55:47,056 --> 00:55:49,716
which therefore is a tool.

815
00:55:50,316 --> 00:55:52,676
So it's kind of one of those. That's how I kind of see it in my head

816
00:55:52,676 --> 00:55:54,276
but would love to hear John's thoughts.

817
00:55:55,816 --> 00:55:58,476
Don't you guys feel kind of silly sometimes

818
00:55:58,476 --> 00:56:01,956
talking about money and what money is or listening to podcasts

819
00:56:01,956 --> 00:56:05,176
about it where it's like this guy says that money is

820
00:56:05,176 --> 00:56:08,076
this checkbox, this checkbox, then this checkbox.

821
00:56:08,216 --> 00:56:11,396
This guy says it's not this checkbox at all but the other two.

822
00:56:11,856 --> 00:56:14,036
This guy says you have to do it reversed.

823
00:56:14,036 --> 00:56:19,556
like i feel like it's almost like talking about religions like which religion got it right

824
00:56:20,196 --> 00:56:24,996
i think the real lesson here like i love that you wrapped it up with eric voss was kind of

825
00:56:24,996 --> 00:56:31,556
compressed you know thing um the lesson here is that nothing is money right money is a it's just

826
00:56:31,556 --> 00:56:39,076
a use case it's just how you use something there's no inherent value there's just value is subjective

827
00:56:39,076 --> 00:56:45,236
that's it and then so you take value as subjective you take a concept of say consensus or you could

828
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:52,596
even be redundant say mutual consensus value that we agree on and now you just choose a medium and

829
00:56:52,596 --> 00:56:58,196
that's the money you know what i mean like there's there's no like oh it must be a store of value it

830
00:56:58,196 --> 00:57:04,996
must have you know intrinsic value it must be a medium of exchange it must be a unit of account

831
00:57:04,996 --> 00:57:12,396
this is all total total bullshit like there is not some like level of a game that bitcoin is playing

832
00:57:12,396 --> 00:57:19,076
where you have now achieved monetary you know medium of exchange congratulations the next stage

833
00:57:19,076 --> 00:57:24,656
is you know unit of account this happened by you know the next 10 to 20 years or you have failed

834
00:57:24,656 --> 00:57:30,816
it's it's all bullshit man like it's just value is subjective the value only lives in one place

835
00:57:30,816 --> 00:57:36,476
your head. It's not inside of the Bitcoins. It's not inside of the bananas. The value is in your

836
00:57:36,476 --> 00:57:40,356
head. And other people who agree with what's in your head will do business with you on the same

837
00:57:40,356 --> 00:57:47,456
terms. And they'll use anything as money. You have people using bottles of Tide in the ghetto. You

838
00:57:47,456 --> 00:57:53,176
have people using sardine cans in the prisons. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter.

839
00:57:53,916 --> 00:57:58,436
And you can say scarcity. Well, scarcity is relative too, right? But you can go just back

840
00:57:58,436 --> 00:58:05,316
the basic physics you have there's a what is it resources are limited proximity is an advantage

841
00:58:05,316 --> 00:58:09,896
like these are just like basic physics problems and so you just take all these concepts and you

842
00:58:09,896 --> 00:58:15,016
say oh that's what we're doing you don't have to like make a checklist of what money is and argue

843
00:58:15,016 --> 00:58:20,616
with other people about it i guess that's what i'm doing but um it just feels silly to me you

844
00:58:20,616 --> 00:58:25,636
know what i mean it's like oh money is this money is this rothbard was wrong it's like what the

845
00:58:25,636 --> 00:58:30,276
philosophy but john this is the great thing about being a bitcoiner we just get to have

846
00:58:30,276 --> 00:58:35,476
these philosophical money arguments all the time like this is like yeah this is like 13 years in

847
00:58:35,476 --> 00:58:42,016
you know it was fun for the first seven and now it's just like come on guys but no this is good

848
00:58:42,016 --> 00:58:46,336
stuff we got to educate the stackers yeah what do you think so what i was just uh so what makes a

849
00:58:46,336 --> 00:58:50,776
money better than another money is more is that more people is that the person you're doing

850
00:58:50,776 --> 00:58:55,556
business with will accept it they're more likely to accept it than other things is that kind of is

851
00:58:55,556 --> 00:58:56,396
Is that what makes it a better money?

852
00:58:56,396 --> 00:58:57,976
Not even that, just that they will.

853
00:58:57,976 --> 00:58:58,816
You know what I mean?

854
00:58:58,816 --> 00:58:59,816
Like it's just a preference.

855
00:58:59,816 --> 00:59:01,456
You even have a money preference.

856
00:59:01,456 --> 00:59:02,296
You know what I mean?

857
00:59:02,296 --> 00:59:04,256
You could say, like I was talking about Paycare earlier.

858
00:59:04,256 --> 00:59:07,856
Imagine like I supported legacy Bitcoin,

859
00:59:07,856 --> 00:59:09,896
taproot Bitcoin and Lightning,

860
00:59:09,896 --> 00:59:13,656
and you supported Ethereum, Tron and Lightning.

861
00:59:13,656 --> 00:59:14,496
What?

862
00:59:14,496 --> 00:59:17,036
We flipped that.

863
00:59:17,036 --> 00:59:18,496
But we match on Lightning, right?

864
00:59:18,496 --> 00:59:19,516
That's all that matters.

865
00:59:19,516 --> 00:59:20,976
The rest is irrelevant.

866
00:59:20,976 --> 00:59:23,176
It's just like, that just means you can do business

867
00:59:23,176 --> 00:59:24,556
with people that I can't do business with.

868
00:59:24,556 --> 00:59:25,476
And so can I.

869
00:59:25,476 --> 00:59:26,476
That's all it means.

870
00:59:26,476 --> 00:59:29,056
It doesn't make Bitcoin special.

871
00:59:29,056 --> 00:59:31,416
It doesn't mean that Lightning won.

872
00:59:31,416 --> 00:59:33,176
It just means that between you and I,

873
00:59:33,176 --> 00:59:34,996
we agreed on how to do business.

874
00:59:34,996 --> 00:59:35,896
That's all it means.

875
00:59:35,896 --> 00:59:37,716
Yeah, so you would never say something like,

876
00:59:37,716 --> 00:59:40,576
one money is better than another money.

877
00:59:40,576 --> 00:59:43,596
Well, I could say that subjectively.

878
00:59:43,596 --> 00:59:45,656
I couldn't say it objectively, right?

879
00:59:45,656 --> 00:59:48,296
Because is Bitcoin better to somebody

880
00:59:48,296 --> 00:59:49,956
that doesn't have Bitcoin and can't afford

881
00:59:49,956 --> 00:59:51,016
a Bitcoin transaction?

882
00:59:51,016 --> 00:59:51,856
No.

883
00:59:51,856 --> 00:59:53,356
Is Bitcoin better to somebody who needs

884
00:59:53,356 --> 00:59:59,676
accomplish something and totally settle within the next 20 seconds? No. They're going to choose

885
00:59:59,676 --> 01:00:05,596
something different. It's totally dynamic, totally subjective. Let me ask you a subjective question.

886
01:00:05,596 --> 01:00:10,636
Do you think Bitcoin is losing its value right now because of the re-application with all the

887
01:00:10,636 --> 01:00:15,436
BlackRock and stuff like that? I definitely think there's paper Bitcoin out there. I don't think all

888
01:00:15,436 --> 01:00:21,436
of the people have all the Bitcoins. I think that the market is still too tightly connected to the

889
01:00:21,436 --> 01:00:24,936
the legacy market, so you don't see a discrepancy in price really.

890
01:00:24,936 --> 01:00:28,676
In other words, you don't see a street price of Bitcoin.

891
01:00:28,676 --> 01:00:32,576
When you start to see that, then things will be much clearer that, okay, there's just too

892
01:00:32,576 --> 01:00:34,216
much paper Bitcoin.

893
01:00:34,216 --> 01:00:41,196
But for now, I really honestly think that Saylor and his people that behaved like Saylor,

894
01:00:41,196 --> 01:00:42,616
they stole the bull market from us.

895
01:00:42,616 --> 01:00:44,296
I sincerely believe that.

896
01:00:44,296 --> 01:00:48,676
All of the interest and liquidity that came to Bitcoin in the past two years, most of it

897
01:00:48,676 --> 01:00:56,016
went into these paper bitcoins. And if even 10% of them don't exist, that's a major blow

898
01:00:56,016 --> 01:01:02,076
to the actual price. That's amazing. And remember, you don't even need there to be like fake

899
01:01:02,076 --> 01:01:08,376
bitcoins. You could just remember the design of how Master works. What he does is he gets

900
01:01:08,376 --> 01:01:13,436
a loan. So he leverages his company and the equity and the Bitcoin that they have to buy

901
01:01:13,436 --> 01:01:18,936
more Bitcoin and then he dilutes the current shareholders by printing more shares. And

902
01:01:18,936 --> 01:01:23,836
then he sells his personal master shares instead of selling Bitcoin. And so he's just cycling

903
01:01:23,836 --> 01:01:30,576
the liquidity and absorbing it the whole time. And so how can Bitcoin go to 300K if Michael

904
01:01:30,576 --> 01:01:34,876
Saylor is selling all his shares and absorbing all the liquidity and all the shareholders

905
01:01:34,876 --> 01:01:39,236
are getting diluted the more Bitcoin that they expose themselves to? At some point, he

906
01:01:39,236 --> 01:01:41,256
You won't be able to get loans anymore.

907
01:01:41,256 --> 01:01:44,996
And then nobody will want, then the price will freeze, you know, because there's not

908
01:01:44,996 --> 01:01:46,776
more Bitcoin promises.

909
01:01:46,776 --> 01:01:51,516
At some point, the government may give special taxes for these types of constructions, and

910
01:01:51,516 --> 01:01:54,996
then people will flee to the exits.

911
01:01:54,996 --> 01:02:01,856
It definitely, definitely affects Bitcoin's health, Bitcoin's price, and Bitcoin's utility,

912
01:02:01,856 --> 01:02:04,576
because what makes Bitcoin actually valuable is that it's uncensorable.

913
01:02:04,576 --> 01:02:09,236
What makes it uncensorable is that it has hash power, that it's actually something you

914
01:02:09,236 --> 01:02:11,216
can hold yourself, etc.

915
01:02:11,216 --> 01:02:15,456
So if you aren't using Bitcoin for its actual properties that make it unique, if that's not

916
01:02:15,456 --> 01:02:20,896
why you value it, then you're just using it as a vessel for speculation, which is not

917
01:02:20,896 --> 01:02:22,676
unique to Bitcoin.

918
01:02:22,676 --> 01:02:39,714
Anybody can speculate on anything Even though you can say it rare well there also Bitcoin cash and there also Ethereum I don know if he got to it yet Scoresby and his Voskull stuff but Voskull is going to

919
01:02:39,714 --> 01:02:43,714
at some point hit him over the head with his, he doesn't call it this, I call it this, his many

920
01:02:43,714 --> 01:02:48,994
bitcoins theory, which is the way that Bitcoin scales is just more blockchains. That's the only

921
01:02:48,994 --> 01:02:54,754
way you can scale it. And so the vision you have to extrapolate would be the way that Bitcoin

922
01:02:54,754 --> 01:02:59,874
matures over time is there's bitcoin number one which is the most secure the most expensive to use

923
01:02:59,874 --> 01:03:04,434
that's bitcoin number two and you can even think of it like class systems it's a ladder the poor

924
01:03:04,434 --> 01:03:10,114
people use the least you know expensive bitcoin the rich people use the most expensive bitcoin

925
01:03:10,114 --> 01:03:14,594
people already have these narratives right they say only banks we would afford bitcoin transactions

926
01:03:14,594 --> 01:03:20,994
we need banks to scale i hate that vision and so i honestly find the the many bitcoins theory

927
01:03:20,994 --> 01:03:28,994
more palatable do you think so so john so a lot of uh 2017 and 2016 when you know when i was getting

928
01:03:28,994 --> 01:03:34,034
into bitcoin we had like the mexikizers and people like that were saying like yeah let them

929
01:03:34,034 --> 01:03:39,074
re-hypothecate bitcoin let them do paper bitcoin we're gonna fork on them do you remember those

930
01:03:39,074 --> 01:03:43,794
talks and like how do you think that's gonna play out in the future um especially with this kind of

931
01:03:43,794 --> 01:03:48,834
like mini bitcoin theory that uh full school is like has in his book i'm not somebody that's gonna

932
01:03:48,834 --> 01:03:57,314
listen to those people um i think bosco could be let's put it this way bosco is just describing

933
01:03:57,314 --> 01:04:02,354
what already happened right like like i said in the beginning of the show we have more monies than

934
01:04:02,354 --> 01:04:07,794
ever like bitcoin's invention didn't show us any evidence of hyper bitcoinization it showed us the

935
01:04:07,794 --> 01:04:12,834
opposite that there would be many many blockchains we thought they would all disappear yet here we

936
01:04:12,834 --> 01:04:18,354
are with the blue chip blockchain still going through three, four cycles with us.

937
01:04:18,354 --> 01:04:24,914
So there's some staying power there. We thought that decentralization would kill them, either

938
01:04:24,914 --> 01:04:29,154
through mining attacks or through government. That didn't happen either. So maybe the blockchain

939
01:04:29,154 --> 01:04:34,514
design is even better than we thought. We don't really know. And so I'm not trying to advocate

940
01:04:34,514 --> 01:04:40,914
for using other Bitcoins or shit coins. I'm just trying to say, look, it already happened.

941
01:04:40,914 --> 01:05:01,494
It played out exactly. Eric Bosco is describing. He's not predicting. You know what I mean? And so it's the Bitcoiners that are predicting. They're saying one day they have all these fantasies about why these things shouldn't exist and predicting that those fantasies will come true. But this is a prediction, right? None of us can ensure that.

942
01:05:01,494 --> 01:05:04,614
So yeah, I think that that's interesting.

943
01:05:04,614 --> 01:05:08,674
I have my own theory which ties to credit and how I think credit should work.

944
01:05:08,674 --> 01:05:13,594
I think that actually at scale, like the only thing that scales is trust, right?

945
01:05:13,594 --> 01:05:16,194
And so I think at scale, the only thing that scales is credit.

946
01:05:16,194 --> 01:05:22,114
And so when people talking about like people using one thing, it shouldn't be Bitcoin or

947
01:05:22,114 --> 01:05:23,734
gold or dollars.

948
01:05:23,734 --> 01:05:27,574
It should be one protocol for coordinating credit.

949
01:05:27,574 --> 01:05:31,514
That's hinting at where I think things would go

950
01:05:31,514 --> 01:05:34,554
if we all behave ourselves and think responsibly and think critically.

951
01:05:35,514 --> 01:05:37,174
Probably we won't do that.

952
01:05:38,194 --> 01:05:40,474
That's interesting. In Star Wars they have credit system too.

953
01:05:40,914 --> 01:05:42,494
We were just talking about that the past few weeks.

954
01:05:42,774 --> 01:05:45,054
How do these futures evolve in sci-fi?

955
01:05:46,114 --> 01:05:48,374
We're talking about one theory of money.

956
01:05:48,634 --> 01:05:50,594
Commodity money is the Austrian point of view.

957
01:05:50,694 --> 01:05:53,734
Then there's a credit theory of money as the other competing point of view.

958
01:05:54,534 --> 01:05:56,114
Trad, econ stuff, circles.

959
01:05:57,574 --> 01:05:58,414
What was I going to say?

960
01:05:58,414 --> 01:06:02,394
Have you laid out your thoughts on credit anywhere yet?

961
01:06:02,394 --> 01:06:05,814
Or have you shared your vision for that?

962
01:06:05,814 --> 01:06:10,054
So I have an entire specification.

963
01:06:10,054 --> 01:06:11,934
We've been working with a couple core devs

964
01:06:11,934 --> 01:06:17,174
in private in the background for a peer-to-peer credit system.

965
01:06:17,174 --> 01:06:20,554
The spec is pretty much done.

966
01:06:20,554 --> 01:06:24,554
I have also now bi-coded some proof of concepts

967
01:06:24,554 --> 01:06:30,214
an Android app, a web playground demonstrating how routing and such would work.

968
01:06:31,294 --> 01:06:33,594
And so that is an active project.

969
01:06:33,974 --> 01:06:35,954
It's not one that we've released publicly yet.

970
01:06:36,374 --> 01:06:41,054
So definitely this year we'll share at least the specs and the paper.

971
01:06:41,994 --> 01:06:46,134
I don't know when we'll actually try to start building it or putting it in our ecosystem

972
01:06:46,134 --> 01:06:47,874
because it's highly speculative.

973
01:06:47,874 --> 01:06:53,014
To think that first I can get people to use Bitcoin, to use Lightning, to use PubKey,

974
01:06:53,014 --> 01:06:59,574
to use locks to now use a credit system on top of all this i've got to prove the rest first um and

975
01:06:59,574 --> 01:07:04,214
so we're not going to be building out it's called atomicity we're not going to be building that out

976
01:07:04,214 --> 01:07:08,934
uh in the short term but we are prepared to build it out the specifications exist the

977
01:07:08,934 --> 01:07:16,134
design design exists in my opinion it is elegant and cool and sound um and not like anything that

978
01:07:16,134 --> 01:07:22,374
already exists so i'm excited about it but we're deciding how and whether and when to play it

979
01:07:22,374 --> 01:07:24,494
because I could come out and say,

980
01:07:24,594 --> 01:07:26,314
oh, this is the next Bitcoin scaling layer

981
01:07:26,314 --> 01:07:27,674
and make it all Bitcoin centric.

982
01:07:27,774 --> 01:07:29,814
And this is how we actually coordinate payments at scale,

983
01:07:29,954 --> 01:07:30,474
blah, blah, blah, blah.

984
01:07:30,754 --> 01:07:31,914
I could do it that angle,

985
01:07:31,954 --> 01:07:33,534
or I could do it as, you know,

986
01:07:33,554 --> 01:07:35,054
this is a solution for everybody.

987
01:07:35,214 --> 01:07:37,794
This is how to bring credit to, you know, the world.

988
01:07:38,254 --> 01:07:39,634
There's a lot of angles to take,

989
01:07:39,774 --> 01:07:42,194
but I'm kind of trying to decide that right now.

990
01:07:42,194 --> 01:07:44,094
We're in the middle of roadmapping for the year

991
01:07:44,094 --> 01:07:46,994
and, you know, doing our budget request for the year.

992
01:07:47,514 --> 01:07:50,034
So I'm deciding how deep I want to go on that.

993
01:07:50,034 --> 01:07:54,194
But it is a solved design problem, at least.

994
01:07:54,494 --> 01:07:54,714
Okay.

995
01:07:54,814 --> 01:08:01,034
It's like the final stage, and you're not sure what it – so it'll come after most things.

996
01:08:01,334 --> 01:08:08,274
And then also you're not sure how you want to present it and, like, package it to people.

997
01:08:08,974 --> 01:08:15,334
Yeah, like do you just make an app that just does this, or do you put it inside of PubKey, or do you put it inside of BitKit?

998
01:08:15,334 --> 01:08:18,314
And it's – we have to figure out the user experience.

999
01:08:18,314 --> 01:08:27,854
Like what is the best way to embed this to not like beat people over the head with complexity, you know, this kind of thing, because it relies on the web of trust aspects as well.

1000
01:08:28,534 --> 01:08:33,174
You guys, if you've heard me talk in the past year about trust and how it interacts with scale at all,

1001
01:08:33,494 --> 01:08:38,274
what you may have heard me at least say is the most basic thing we distilled is in order to,

1002
01:08:38,274 --> 01:08:39,394
you need trust to scale.

1003
01:08:39,794 --> 01:08:46,674
And in order to express trust, you need to at least express who you trust, with what, for how long.

1004
01:08:47,374 --> 01:08:49,114
And the with what would include how much.

1005
01:08:49,354 --> 01:08:57,234
So an example would be, I trust Carr with $20 of Bitcoin until he wrongs me.

1006
01:08:57,234 --> 01:09:02,874
or until the end of February, or until he pays me back this other thing.

1007
01:09:03,394 --> 01:09:08,234
And so you have this way of having conditions and expressing credit to specific keys,

1008
01:09:08,434 --> 01:09:10,154
and also a way of routing it.

1009
01:09:10,254 --> 01:09:11,074
The routing is pretty cool.

1010
01:09:11,234 --> 01:09:14,174
It's like a step routing, covenant step routing method.

1011
01:09:14,534 --> 01:09:17,774
So there's not actual routing across the path.

1012
01:09:17,954 --> 01:09:20,194
There's just repeated steps in the path.

1013
01:09:20,194 --> 01:09:23,334
And this makes it easier to establish privacy,

1014
01:09:23,914 --> 01:09:26,874
easier to deal with the fact that this is all trusted,

1015
01:09:27,234 --> 01:09:30,294
and that anybody could disappear at any moment.

1016
01:09:30,294 --> 01:09:33,074
And so there's a lot of cool stuff that we addressed

1017
01:09:33,074 --> 01:09:35,494
and how to approach the problem.

1018
01:09:35,494 --> 01:09:38,014
And it was fully compatible with PayKit as well.

1019
01:09:38,014 --> 01:09:41,074
So the idea is that a proof in Atomicity

1020
01:09:41,074 --> 01:09:44,594
serves as a valid payment request in PayKit.

1021
01:09:44,594 --> 01:09:46,634
So when you wanna like call in a debt,

1022
01:09:46,634 --> 01:09:50,194
you already have the signed proof that PayKit would accept

1023
01:09:50,194 --> 01:09:52,054
that will automatically pay out,

1024
01:09:52,054 --> 01:09:54,814
based off of whatever payment methods we both support.

1025
01:09:54,814 --> 01:09:57,874
Anyway, it's a lot to kind of weave together.

1026
01:09:58,334 --> 01:10:01,254
It took years to kind of make it all one elegant thing.

1027
01:10:01,774 --> 01:10:05,294
And so we're just trying to ship it in the most sensible order.

1028
01:10:05,854 --> 01:10:07,534
Yeah, I remember you talking about that,

1029
01:10:07,594 --> 01:10:10,174
like maybe a year or two ago when we were last chat.

1030
01:10:10,274 --> 01:10:12,314
And it seems a little bit more fleshed out now

1031
01:10:12,314 --> 01:10:13,654
than what I remember it being.

1032
01:10:14,714 --> 01:10:17,574
Well, remember, I've been wanting to do credits

1033
01:10:17,574 --> 01:10:20,654
since before the idea started.

1034
01:10:20,974 --> 01:10:24,514
I'm the one who invented the idea of tokens on Lightning.

1035
01:10:24,814 --> 01:10:30,434
and supported any amount of like we were supporting the Omnibolt guys.

1036
01:10:30,834 --> 01:10:32,554
We tried to do Omni.

1037
01:10:33,274 --> 01:10:36,774
We remember we did the first lightning transaction of Tether

1038
01:10:36,774 --> 01:10:42,194
by using Omnibolt back before Taproot Assets was even announced.

1039
01:10:42,354 --> 01:10:43,394
It was an idea.

1040
01:10:43,894 --> 01:10:44,894
We supported RGB.

1041
01:10:45,294 --> 01:10:47,894
I was part of that project for a while, got that funded for a while.

1042
01:10:48,154 --> 01:10:51,194
I've always believed that credit was a missing piece here

1043
01:10:51,194 --> 01:10:53,934
because that's what I learned when I worked at BitRefill.

1044
01:10:53,934 --> 01:11:01,874
It's like, oh, this is like if there's Bitcoin and there's BitRefill, and that's like a huge chunk of what's interesting to me about Bitcoin.

1045
01:11:02,174 --> 01:11:02,574
You know what I mean?

1046
01:11:02,914 --> 01:11:05,894
Exchanges, yeah, we all use them and need them and such.

1047
01:11:06,034 --> 01:11:19,814
But like as far as the use cases, like I got an intimate view of like, oh, this is how people use dedicated credit and all these creative ways to overcome either oppressive or stupid boundaries in the world.

1048
01:11:19,814 --> 01:11:22,534
and so BitRefill was doing a lot

1049
01:11:22,534 --> 01:11:24,374
that Bitcoin claims to do

1050
01:11:24,374 --> 01:11:26,554
and now Tether has also filled that gap

1051
01:11:26,554 --> 01:11:28,294
as well, right? Like people are using Tether

1052
01:11:28,294 --> 01:11:30,414
to break down borders and things

1053
01:11:30,414 --> 01:11:31,234
like this, so

1054
01:11:31,234 --> 01:11:34,414
credit is obviously part of the picture

1055
01:11:34,414 --> 01:11:35,874
Yeah, it would be interesting

1056
01:11:35,874 --> 01:11:38,234
to see what a Bitcoin

1057
01:11:38,234 --> 01:11:40,154
on the

1058
01:11:40,154 --> 01:11:42,394
first layer, then be able

1059
01:11:42,394 --> 01:11:44,254
to have a credit system amongst

1060
01:11:44,254 --> 01:11:45,654
a group of friends or something

1061
01:11:45,654 --> 01:11:48,394
Yeah, that would be very interesting

1062
01:11:48,394 --> 01:11:55,394
Well, what you want in the system is to have any definition of debt or credit mutual.

1063
01:11:55,394 --> 01:11:58,154
So in other words, it's not a Bitcoin thing at all.

1064
01:11:58,154 --> 01:12:00,414
It's just a we agree thing.

1065
01:12:00,414 --> 01:12:04,874
And so you can say, you know, I owe you $20 and you can say, well, I want you to owe me

1066
01:12:04,874 --> 01:12:05,874
an USDT.

1067
01:12:05,874 --> 01:12:06,874
Okay, fine.

1068
01:12:06,874 --> 01:12:07,874
I owe you $20 of USDT.

1069
01:12:07,874 --> 01:12:08,874
You know what I mean?

1070
01:12:08,874 --> 01:12:09,874
And that's how it is.

1071
01:12:09,874 --> 01:12:12,514
And if that's not what you want, then you won't agree with me.

1072
01:12:12,514 --> 01:12:13,514
You know what I mean?

1073
01:12:13,514 --> 01:12:15,034
We won't have the relationship.

1074
01:12:15,034 --> 01:12:17,854
So whether it's Bitcoin isn't what's important.

1075
01:12:17,854 --> 01:12:22,694
whether or not we trust each other, what are the terms, you know, how are we coordinating

1076
01:12:22,694 --> 01:12:27,754
everything? Because in my opinion, that's all we're doing in like, is we're just coordinating

1077
01:12:27,754 --> 01:12:32,754
the trust and all the other complexity, like to try to like enforce something is bullshit.

1078
01:12:32,754 --> 01:12:38,174
Because once you get a few million people in layer two, everything falls apart with regular

1079
01:12:38,174 --> 01:12:41,974
usage. I don't even think I've been trying to like figure out math wise, how many people

1080
01:12:41,974 --> 01:12:46,434
active users that Clint could support. I don't think Bitcoin could support even 10 million

1081
01:12:46,434 --> 01:12:52,634
active users. You really would have to compress things. And once you compress things into layers,

1082
01:12:52,854 --> 01:12:57,094
you have all these enforcement problems and cascade problems. The whole thing just doesn't

1083
01:12:57,094 --> 01:13:01,354
scale, which is another reason why you have to start looking at the many Bitcoins theory.

1084
01:13:01,594 --> 01:13:06,554
It's like, wait a minute, if I can only fit 10 million per blockchain using Bitcoin's block size

1085
01:13:06,554 --> 01:13:11,154
and block time parameters, there's only so many people you can fit in a blockchain,

1086
01:13:11,394 --> 01:13:14,354
no matter how you rearrange the numbers. We're going to make it work past 10 million,

1087
01:13:14,354 --> 01:13:19,714
John. It's okay. We got this. I don't think you can. I don't. I really don't think you can.

1088
01:13:19,714 --> 01:13:21,074
You know, we'll figure it out.

1089
01:13:21,074 --> 01:13:24,274
More than 10 million people can have Bitcoin exposure for sure. They already do, right?

1090
01:13:24,274 --> 01:13:29,074
But it's all in exchanges. It's all in Michael Saylor's hands, etc. So it seems like Bitcoin

1091
01:13:29,074 --> 01:13:34,674
is serving tens of billions of people. But when you look on chain, you count the transactions,

1092
01:13:34,674 --> 01:13:41,074
you think, oh, no, it's not the case. So we're going to jump into that's all the top three

1093
01:13:41,074 --> 01:13:46,034
stories this week on stacker news live stackers we're gonna maybe we should let john go too this

1094
01:13:46,034 --> 01:13:53,154
is where the show kind of falls off the rails anyway i mean well all right i'll take my cue

1095
01:13:53,154 --> 01:13:58,354
um thank you so much keyon great to see you again thank you yeah i appreciate it very much

1096
01:13:58,354 --> 01:14:04,034
to anybody listening uh please check out um synonym.to if you want to learn about the company

1097
01:14:04,034 --> 01:14:10,354
and the vision uh bitcoin error log is my handle on x if you want to get trolled by me on stacker

1098
01:14:10,354 --> 01:14:12,894
Yes, on Stacker News as well.

1099
01:14:12,974 --> 01:14:14,714
I think I was the first or second user.

1100
01:14:15,114 --> 01:14:19,214
I think you were the first person, the first real human being, I think so.

1101
01:14:19,334 --> 01:14:21,774
Yeah, so I'm a Stacker legend, you know.

1102
01:14:23,154 --> 01:14:27,754
But also check out bitkit.to for the Bitkit wallet app and pubkey.app

1103
01:14:27,754 --> 01:14:29,914
if you want to try the social app we're talking about.

1104
01:14:30,074 --> 01:14:31,134
Thank you so much, guys.

1105
01:14:31,574 --> 01:14:32,074
Thanks, John.

1106
01:14:32,074 --> 01:14:32,714
Appreciate you.

1107
01:14:32,834 --> 01:14:33,514
We'll see you next time.

1108
01:14:33,634 --> 01:14:33,774
Bye.

1109
01:14:34,274 --> 01:14:34,394
Bye.

1110
01:14:36,034 --> 01:14:36,394
Cool.

1111
01:14:37,074 --> 01:14:38,874
Keon, what did you think?

1112
01:14:39,234 --> 01:14:40,074
Oh, I thought it was great.

1113
01:14:40,354 --> 01:14:49,654
John has so many ideas, and they're always quite divergent from what I'll hear elsewhere.

1114
01:14:49,814 --> 01:14:50,014
Yeah.

1115
01:14:50,674 --> 01:14:51,734
And so I like that.

1116
01:14:51,874 --> 01:14:52,654
It's refreshing.

1117
01:14:53,094 --> 01:14:53,674
Yeah, exactly.

1118
01:14:54,634 --> 01:15:00,354
That's one of my favorite things about John is I can put up my own takes on stuff,

1119
01:15:00,434 --> 01:15:01,414
and it just doesn't matter.

1120
01:15:01,494 --> 01:15:04,074
He's going to have his own take, and we still have beer over it.

1121
01:15:04,734 --> 01:15:06,294
That's what we need more of in Bitcoin.

1122
01:15:06,294 --> 01:15:15,994
We need more fresh ideas outside the box thinking and just being able to maintain friendships even though you disagree.

1123
01:15:17,334 --> 01:15:18,534
That's why I like John.

1124
01:15:18,694 --> 01:15:21,354
That does seem to be pretty hard in Bitcoin right now.

1125
01:15:21,874 --> 01:15:22,754
Yeah, especially right now.

1126
01:15:23,014 --> 01:15:28,774
Yeah, but I think we have a lot of people discussing Bitcoin that don't really care to understand it.

1127
01:15:28,974 --> 01:15:30,754
It's, I think, a bigger problem.

1128
01:15:31,174 --> 01:15:31,314
Yeah.

1129
01:15:31,534 --> 01:15:34,054
So with that, let's jump into the rest of the stories this week.

1130
01:15:34,054 --> 01:15:35,914
We got Wumble's Picks.

1131
01:15:36,334 --> 01:15:37,114
Wumble's Picks.

1132
01:15:37,194 --> 01:15:38,434
I don't know what that's leading to.

1133
01:15:38,934 --> 01:15:39,614
Where did that go?

1134
01:15:39,914 --> 01:15:40,414
Let me see.

1135
01:15:40,694 --> 01:15:41,334
Hang on a second.

1136
01:15:41,574 --> 01:15:42,474
It should go to YouTube.

1137
01:15:42,794 --> 01:15:44,414
So you might be on a VPN maybe?

1138
01:15:44,854 --> 01:15:45,514
Oh, man.

1139
01:15:45,594 --> 01:15:45,854
Oh, yeah.

1140
01:15:45,854 --> 01:15:46,894
I probably just didn't load it wrong.

1141
01:15:47,554 --> 01:15:48,394
Yeah, let me find it.

1142
01:15:48,854 --> 01:15:50,974
Yeah, do you want to tell people what Wumble picked this week?

1143
01:15:51,114 --> 01:15:54,754
Yeah, so the Slate Truck, I guess, was on Jay Leno's garage.

1144
01:15:55,574 --> 01:16:01,694
The Slate Truck is an economy e-vehicle?

1145
01:16:01,694 --> 01:16:04,214
It takes a lot of thinking to be able to sell a car.

1146
01:16:04,314 --> 01:16:04,794
Let me mute this.

1147
01:16:05,034 --> 01:16:05,394
Go for it.

1148
01:16:05,514 --> 01:16:05,674
Yeah.

1149
01:16:05,974 --> 01:16:11,194
So Jay Leno, car guy who wears denim, used to do a late-night talk show.

1150
01:16:12,754 --> 01:16:17,194
He has this car show and the Slate truck guy.

1151
01:16:17,334 --> 01:16:19,314
I don't know if there was a big push on this.

1152
01:16:19,574 --> 01:16:22,034
I remember I posted this about this a year ago.

1153
01:16:22,274 --> 01:16:23,594
It was a year, maybe six months ago.

1154
01:16:23,694 --> 01:16:24,594
They started teasing it.

1155
01:16:24,694 --> 01:16:29,434
But it's this very affordable electronic vehicle that's made in the United States

1156
01:16:29,434 --> 01:16:30,494
and is made to be.

1157
01:16:30,494 --> 01:16:34,134
One of Amazon's investments, I think, or maybe Jeff Bezos, one of those.

1158
01:16:34,254 --> 01:16:35,794
Jeff Bezos invested in it.

1159
01:16:35,934 --> 01:16:37,934
The CEO is an ex-Tesla person.

1160
01:16:38,074 --> 01:16:39,954
I imagine the whole team is ex-Tesla.

1161
01:16:40,314 --> 01:16:44,194
But they, yeah, apparently it's in the prototype stage,

1162
01:16:44,234 --> 01:16:46,634
and that's what he brought to Jay Leno's garage, and Jay drives it.

1163
01:16:46,634 --> 01:16:51,474
You notice he complements a lot of the thinking and, like, theories

1164
01:16:51,474 --> 01:16:54,754
about the labor markets and, you know, stuff like that.

1165
01:16:54,774 --> 01:16:57,014
But he doesn't exactly, he doesn't complement the drivability

1166
01:16:57,014 --> 01:16:59,514
or anything of the car, so I'd guess it drives.

1167
01:16:59,514 --> 01:17:01,774
relatively okay. It drives

1168
01:17:01,774 --> 01:17:03,494
nicely, but it's...

1169
01:17:03,494 --> 01:17:05,994
Yeah, but Jay Leno, the guy

1170
01:17:05,994 --> 01:17:07,574
who's driving probably

1171
01:17:07,574 --> 01:17:10,214
typically like a $2 million car most of the time

1172
01:17:10,214 --> 01:17:12,574
or whatever, it doesn't have...

1173
01:17:12,574 --> 01:17:13,754
It's not going to impress him, but

1174
01:17:13,754 --> 01:17:16,374
I imagine for Plebs, this is a great vehicle

1175
01:17:16,374 --> 01:17:18,214
given that you can turn it into...

1176
01:17:18,934 --> 01:17:20,314
It has enough mount points

1177
01:17:20,314 --> 01:17:21,794
and stuff you can turn it into a Mad Max

1178
01:17:21,794 --> 01:17:23,094
type.

1179
01:17:24,594 --> 01:17:26,034
Who's that guy who made that

1180
01:17:26,034 --> 01:17:27,954
dozer thing?

1181
01:17:28,454 --> 01:17:29,254
Oh, the kill dozer?

1182
01:17:29,254 --> 01:17:29,814
Kill dozer.

1183
01:17:29,934 --> 01:17:35,094
You can probably turn it into a small pleb kill dozer.

1184
01:17:35,334 --> 01:17:38,554
Not for killing, maybe like a protect dozer.

1185
01:17:40,154 --> 01:17:41,074
But it's cool.

1186
01:17:41,254 --> 01:17:42,254
It has all these things.

1187
01:17:42,354 --> 01:17:42,694
I don't know.

1188
01:17:42,774 --> 01:17:43,634
You can look it up.

1189
01:17:43,914 --> 01:17:45,694
Yeah, I remember it's very modular.

1190
01:17:46,054 --> 01:17:51,014
And it even comes down to the dashboard and what you want.

1191
01:17:51,994 --> 01:17:53,334
Yeah, a lot of things are optional.

1192
01:17:53,494 --> 01:17:57,334
But I think the base price is somewhere around $10,000, if I remember correctly.

1193
01:17:57,594 --> 01:17:58,354
Oh, no, $25,000.

1194
01:17:58,514 --> 01:17:58,814
$25,000.

1195
01:17:58,814 --> 01:18:01,354
Oh, okay, so it's gone up than what I remember.

1196
01:18:02,134 --> 01:18:04,574
But, yeah, it just depends on what kind of configuration you got.

1197
01:18:04,874 --> 01:18:08,034
Well, they stripped away everything, so it doesn't have a stereo.

1198
01:18:08,254 --> 01:18:10,574
It does have air conditioning, but it doesn't have a stereo.

1199
01:18:10,814 --> 01:18:12,074
They just assume you're going to use your phone.

1200
01:18:12,074 --> 01:18:12,994
It's gas, too, right?

1201
01:18:13,874 --> 01:18:16,274
No, it has a battery.

1202
01:18:16,614 --> 01:18:17,294
Oh, it's electric.

1203
01:18:17,434 --> 01:18:20,334
Yeah, I wish it were hybrid at least because that would stop me.

1204
01:18:20,574 --> 01:18:23,694
I don't like depending on infrastructure that's kind of young.

1205
01:18:24,454 --> 01:18:24,714
Yeah.

1206
01:18:25,214 --> 01:18:26,354
Like the charging networks.

1207
01:18:26,354 --> 01:18:29,894
Yeah, maybe you can just hack the crap out of this thing.

1208
01:18:30,014 --> 01:18:31,094
That's what I would want to do.

1209
01:18:31,714 --> 01:18:34,114
Just throw a Clawbot on it, you know?

1210
01:18:35,674 --> 01:18:37,334
Have Clawbot drive it for you?

1211
01:18:37,354 --> 01:18:38,054
Have Clawbot.

1212
01:18:38,154 --> 01:18:40,214
Just start designing other cool things you can do with it.

1213
01:18:40,334 --> 01:18:41,334
That'd be pretty sick.

1214
01:18:42,374 --> 01:18:44,574
Yeah, it's pretty fascinating.

1215
01:18:45,054 --> 01:18:45,754
He had a question.

1216
01:18:45,854 --> 01:18:48,234
Let me go back here and find it where the question was.

1217
01:18:50,754 --> 01:18:51,474
There he goes.

1218
01:18:51,774 --> 01:18:53,474
The question that Wumble had was,

1219
01:18:53,474 --> 01:18:57,114
do you think American consumers really want a low-cost vehicle,

1220
01:18:57,334 --> 01:19:01,214
or is the car a status symbol that will drive people toward higher-end cars?

1221
01:19:01,394 --> 01:19:02,034
Keyon, what do you think?

1222
01:19:02,894 --> 01:19:04,294
That's a good question.

1223
01:19:04,554 --> 01:19:06,014
I don't actually know.

1224
01:19:06,114 --> 01:19:08,394
I'm not much of a driver.

1225
01:19:08,514 --> 01:19:09,314
I don't like driving.

1226
01:19:10,834 --> 01:19:21,114
But I think they do want a low-cost vehicle so long as it is personalizable.

1227
01:19:21,114 --> 01:19:22,934
It does everything that they need it to.

1228
01:19:23,474 --> 01:19:25,594
And it's reliable.

1229
01:19:25,874 --> 01:19:30,694
I think a lot of people would buy that as sort of their everyday if it made sense.

1230
01:19:31,634 --> 01:19:37,574
But most people who own cars, they want to pack their own identity and status into it.

1231
01:19:37,574 --> 01:19:45,414
But I think there's a way to achieve identity gains and status gains in an affordable way.

1232
01:19:45,774 --> 01:19:48,754
And perhaps this vehicle will allow them to do it.

1233
01:19:49,134 --> 01:19:51,334
I think if you really want an affordable car, you'd probably buy a used car.

1234
01:19:51,334 --> 01:19:54,914
because you could probably get a decent used car for around $10,000.

1235
01:19:55,554 --> 01:19:59,514
At least at one point, maybe I haven't looked at cars in a long time.

1236
01:20:01,654 --> 01:20:03,794
But I think there's definitely a market for it.

1237
01:20:03,934 --> 01:20:06,694
I could totally imagine if I didn't want to look at used cars

1238
01:20:06,694 --> 01:20:09,494
and just wanted a direct-to-consumer car experience

1239
01:20:09,494 --> 01:20:12,074
and a truck made and since it's a form factor,

1240
01:20:12,174 --> 01:20:14,534
I didn't mind e-vehicles, I would buy this vehicle.

1241
01:20:15,454 --> 01:20:15,574
Yeah.

1242
01:20:17,014 --> 01:20:17,994
I don't know.

1243
01:20:18,034 --> 01:20:19,834
I definitely think cars are status symbols.

1244
01:20:19,834 --> 01:20:21,814
Most people definitely use that as such.

1245
01:20:24,274 --> 01:20:24,874
I don't know.

1246
01:20:24,934 --> 01:20:26,614
I don't know if I would buy this.

1247
01:20:26,854 --> 01:20:31,034
It just, they went up $15,000, so that's another reason why I wouldn't buy it.

1248
01:20:31,494 --> 01:20:33,654
But when I saw it, it was like $10,000.

1249
01:20:33,974 --> 01:20:35,194
They were like pitching $10,000.

1250
01:20:36,294 --> 01:20:38,954
And yeah, $25,000 just for this thing.

1251
01:20:39,014 --> 01:20:39,394
I don't know.

1252
01:20:40,594 --> 01:20:41,134
I don't know.

1253
01:20:41,474 --> 01:20:42,374
I mean, you get it.

1254
01:20:42,374 --> 01:20:43,334
I mean, would you buy it?

1255
01:20:44,894 --> 01:20:45,254
$25,000?

1256
01:20:45,354 --> 01:20:46,414
That's a lot of.

1257
01:20:46,694 --> 01:20:47,614
That's a lot of sats.

1258
01:20:48,554 --> 01:20:48,834
Yeah.

1259
01:20:48,834 --> 01:20:49,814
I don't know if I would.

1260
01:20:49,834 --> 01:20:50,534
Especially now.

1261
01:20:52,374 --> 01:20:52,874
Yeah, I don't.

1262
01:20:53,454 --> 01:20:54,954
I mean, I'm not in the market for a car.

1263
01:20:55,234 --> 01:20:58,334
I don't know if I'll ever buy a car or own another.

1264
01:20:58,634 --> 01:21:01,494
I have a cheap van that mostly sits.

1265
01:21:04,054 --> 01:21:05,374
I love his show, though.

1266
01:21:05,374 --> 01:21:05,974
I always watch.

1267
01:21:06,094 --> 01:21:07,774
Like, I watched the one with the Batman mobile.

1268
01:21:07,954 --> 01:21:08,674
Did you see that one?

1269
01:21:09,254 --> 01:21:11,794
Where he was, like, testing out the Tumblr, the Batman Tumblr.

1270
01:21:12,534 --> 01:21:12,854
Jay Leno.

1271
01:21:13,074 --> 01:21:13,814
I think I saw that.

1272
01:21:13,914 --> 01:21:16,494
I used to watch a lot of his videos.

1273
01:21:17,354 --> 01:21:18,714
I really enjoy it.

1274
01:21:18,714 --> 01:21:23,494
He really loves cars, and it's really cool to see someone super obsessed with something.

1275
01:21:23,914 --> 01:21:25,354
They become really interesting.

1276
01:21:25,494 --> 01:21:29,474
I think him and Jerry Seinfeld are, like, obsessed with cars from what I know.

1277
01:21:29,634 --> 01:21:30,894
Yeah, Seinfeld is another one.

1278
01:21:30,954 --> 01:21:32,854
I mean, there's not much you can do with that much money,

1279
01:21:33,214 --> 01:21:36,574
especially if you're a kind of fiat person.

1280
01:21:37,194 --> 01:21:39,614
You just kind of have to accumulate these assets

1281
01:21:39,614 --> 01:21:41,874
and kind of want to trade and collect and stuff.

1282
01:21:42,274 --> 01:21:42,414
Yeah.

1283
01:21:43,174 --> 01:21:43,574
Cool.

1284
01:21:43,574 --> 01:21:44,914
That was Wumble's Picks.

1285
01:21:44,914 --> 01:21:49,554
Tune in next week for the next installment of Wumble Picks.

1286
01:21:50,014 --> 01:21:55,674
We're going to jump into, let's jump into, so you had some, or we can start with mine.

1287
01:21:55,774 --> 01:21:57,694
So this was an interesting one that I shared this week.

1288
01:21:58,094 --> 01:21:59,754
It was called Notes on Not Posting.

1289
01:21:59,934 --> 01:22:05,654
And this lady here, she went on a two-month social media hiatus.

1290
01:22:05,654 --> 01:22:08,454
and then she came back and she had a lot of,

1291
01:22:09,354 --> 01:22:12,854
she had like a list of things that she found really

1292
01:22:12,854 --> 01:22:16,534
that she came with, more like observations.

1293
01:22:17,374 --> 01:22:20,254
So the number one thing she had was consumption alone is a weak drug.

1294
01:22:20,374 --> 01:22:21,854
Posting is what keeps me sucked in.

1295
01:22:22,374 --> 01:22:23,054
I'm not posting.

1296
01:22:23,174 --> 01:22:25,374
It's far easier to drift away for days, even weeks at a time.

1297
01:22:26,574 --> 01:22:30,074
The new age wisdom, create more than you consume is sound,

1298
01:22:30,154 --> 01:22:33,474
yet ignores the fact that creating on any two-sided platform

1299
01:22:33,474 --> 01:22:35,754
means you're in the insider consumption vortex.

1300
01:22:36,834 --> 01:22:38,814
She had some other really interesting ones.

1301
01:22:39,994 --> 01:22:43,614
I'm consuming less of media that's dissected on social media too.

1302
01:22:43,754 --> 01:22:48,514
A lot of podcasts, it turns out, is far less interesting without the feed.

1303
01:22:48,654 --> 01:22:50,254
Commentary is half the product confirmed.

1304
01:22:51,254 --> 01:22:52,414
And yeah, she just kind of goes through.

1305
01:22:52,474 --> 01:22:54,534
She said her anxiety disappeared.

1306
01:22:55,554 --> 01:22:59,334
Her hot take anxiety disappeared by taking a break from social media.

1307
01:23:00,094 --> 01:23:02,154
Then now she wants to make things heavier.

1308
01:23:03,474 --> 01:23:05,634
So, what do you think about this?

1309
01:23:05,634 --> 01:23:10,554
I think it's pretty scary to think that someone can come up with this long list of things

1310
01:23:10,554 --> 01:23:12,154
that have changed when they've stepped away.

1311
01:23:12,154 --> 01:23:14,854
For two years, or no, for two months, yeah, that's alarming.

1312
01:23:14,854 --> 01:23:15,854
Yeah.

1313
01:23:15,854 --> 01:23:16,854
It was two weeks, she said, right?

1314
01:23:16,854 --> 01:23:17,854
No, two months.

1315
01:23:17,854 --> 01:23:18,854
Okay, two months.

1316
01:23:18,854 --> 01:23:19,934
Well, even two months.

1317
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:24,552
even longer she might change more but it just shows that you're kind of you're you're putting

1318
01:23:24,552 --> 01:23:29,492
yourself in this environment that is changing you it's not a drug it's not a food you're not like

1319
01:23:29,492 --> 01:23:35,192
yeah consuming it in like a chemical way but it is changing who you are and it's worth thinking

1320
01:23:35,192 --> 01:23:40,372
about and that's that is kind of scary she said i make more phone calls oh that's nice and i care

1321
01:23:40,372 --> 01:23:44,212
less what people think of me that's what she said yeah yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff here

1322
01:23:44,212 --> 01:23:48,012
I think what it really was is just, like, them getting older.

1323
01:23:48,612 --> 01:23:53,732
I think a lot of things become less, you know, I'm the same way.

1324
01:23:53,792 --> 01:23:58,552
I feel like a lot of things become less I need to be right on as I get older

1325
01:23:58,552 --> 01:24:03,592
just because I'm just a lot more mature about what actually can, you know, play out,

1326
01:24:03,672 --> 01:24:04,592
I guess you could say, right?

1327
01:24:05,232 --> 01:24:10,012
Yeah, I mean, I haven't taken a day off Stackr News maybe in 17 years.

1328
01:24:11,012 --> 01:24:13,072
I wonder what would happen to me.

1329
01:24:13,072 --> 01:24:14,672
like am I the same person?

1330
01:24:15,072 --> 01:24:15,252
Do I

1331
01:24:15,252 --> 01:24:16,292
would I still

1332
01:24:16,292 --> 01:24:17,332
would I change my name?

1333
01:24:17,552 --> 01:24:17,892
Oh yeah

1334
01:24:17,892 --> 01:24:18,672
would you like

1335
01:24:18,672 --> 01:24:19,272
yeah

1336
01:24:19,272 --> 01:24:20,332
would this beard

1337
01:24:20,332 --> 01:24:22,352
feel strange on my face

1338
01:24:22,352 --> 01:24:23,052
when I'm not

1339
01:24:23,052 --> 01:24:23,672
spending all day

1340
01:24:23,672 --> 01:24:24,192
on a forum?

1341
01:24:24,352 --> 01:24:24,832
I don't know.

1342
01:24:25,112 --> 01:24:25,272
Yeah

1343
01:24:25,272 --> 01:24:27,852
the next one I had

1344
01:24:27,852 --> 01:24:28,232
I think no

1345
01:24:28,232 --> 01:24:29,072
actually that's it

1346
01:24:29,072 --> 01:24:31,512
let's jump into

1347
01:24:31,512 --> 01:24:32,372
let's jump into yours

1348
01:24:32,372 --> 01:24:33,012
what did you have

1349
01:24:33,012 --> 01:24:33,832
to talk about this week?

1350
01:24:34,012 --> 01:24:35,252
Oh that's a good question

1351
01:24:35,252 --> 01:24:35,932
I was

1352
01:24:35,932 --> 01:24:37,252
I had them before we started

1353
01:24:37,252 --> 01:24:37,672
but then

1354
01:24:37,672 --> 01:24:38,612
I didn't want to keep

1355
01:24:38,612 --> 01:24:39,192
John waiting

1356
01:24:39,192 --> 01:24:40,212
yep

1357
01:24:40,212 --> 01:24:42,372
let me see

1358
01:24:42,372 --> 01:24:44,992
well I did do

1359
01:24:44,992 --> 01:24:47,112
make something bots want

1360
01:24:47,112 --> 01:24:48,932
and that's what we named this episode

1361
01:24:48,932 --> 01:24:51,412
yeah so let me go back here so we can talk about that

1362
01:24:51,412 --> 01:24:53,592
first I was going to talk about the AI stuff but I was going to wait

1363
01:24:53,592 --> 01:24:55,292
but since you're going to start there

1364
01:24:55,292 --> 01:24:56,572
let's do that

1365
01:24:56,572 --> 01:24:59,312
yeah so the

1366
01:24:59,312 --> 01:25:01,372
the AI Bitcoin stuff just like

1367
01:25:01,372 --> 01:25:03,372
went to another level this week I mean it's just

1368
01:25:03,372 --> 01:25:05,152
insane the amount of stuff that's happening on

1369
01:25:05,152 --> 01:25:06,912
Noster the amount of stuff that's happening in the

1370
01:25:06,912 --> 01:25:09,332
regular AI space and then

1371
01:25:09,332 --> 01:25:11,312
just Bitcoiners in general

1372
01:25:11,312 --> 01:25:16,212
just like leveling up this week has just been amazing to watch amid all the chaos that's

1373
01:25:16,212 --> 01:25:17,352
happening on Twitter.

1374
01:25:18,412 --> 01:25:21,432
So let's get into Keon's and make something bots.

1375
01:25:21,552 --> 01:25:22,712
What Keon, what was this?

1376
01:25:23,412 --> 01:25:25,852
I kind of skimmed it, but I didn't really understand what your points were.

1377
01:25:26,252 --> 01:25:33,012
I was mostly saying that the internet population is going to grow a lot now that we have, now

1378
01:25:33,012 --> 01:25:38,532
that we're kind of, especially now that we have a lot of personal agents calling the internet.

1379
01:25:38,532 --> 01:25:38,712
Post-claw.

1380
01:25:39,472 --> 01:25:40,952
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while.

1381
01:25:41,312 --> 01:25:46,952
but it's become, I think, I can make this argument now,

1382
01:25:47,012 --> 01:25:48,732
and people will be more likely to believe me

1383
01:25:48,732 --> 01:25:53,172
now that they've seen OpenClaw and seen MoldBook

1384
01:25:53,172 --> 01:25:59,352
and seen how, especially now that most replies on X are all slop,

1385
01:25:59,752 --> 01:26:02,652
and most environments that we're in online

1386
01:26:02,652 --> 01:26:04,872
we're seeing a lot more AI-generated content.

1387
01:26:06,292 --> 01:26:09,212
I make the argument that the Internet population is going to grow,

1388
01:26:09,352 --> 01:26:10,592
but it's not going to grow with people.

1389
01:26:10,592 --> 01:26:16,052
it's going to grow from bots and actually a lot more bots than there will be people.

1390
01:26:16,892 --> 01:26:20,712
And so if you want to be an internet company, my argument here is like,

1391
01:26:20,732 --> 01:26:25,852
if you want to build an internet company in the future, you should make a product for bots.

1392
01:26:26,432 --> 01:26:28,112
Yeah, actually, it's funny.

1393
01:26:28,212 --> 01:26:34,472
I was watching a live stream this week on the Claw, was it the Claw-a-thon that got shared in our Slack?

1394
01:26:34,592 --> 01:26:40,452
And that's literally what somebody had said too as well, was like, this was, it was insane.

1395
01:26:40,452 --> 01:26:41,692
Where did you see this?

1396
01:26:42,012 --> 01:26:45,372
It was on the, this guy was doing a live stream where, like,

1397
01:26:45,672 --> 01:26:50,372
they were doing the first Claw, I guess, conference, I guess, I don't know, NSF.

1398
01:26:50,952 --> 01:26:53,032
And he came on the live stream.

1399
01:26:53,132 --> 01:26:57,432
He was just like, everybody needs to be focusing on building stuff for bots now.

1400
01:26:57,752 --> 01:26:59,752
Like, he just had, like, this hard stance on it.

1401
01:27:00,632 --> 01:27:02,912
I mean building a product for bots.

1402
01:27:02,932 --> 01:27:03,632
That's what he meant, yeah.

1403
01:27:03,792 --> 01:27:06,552
Not something that's adjacent to bots or involves bots.

1404
01:27:06,552 --> 01:27:10,332
I mean the consumer of your product is a bot.

1405
01:27:10,452 --> 01:27:15,872
like the consumer of any website currently we think of as being human.

1406
01:27:17,212 --> 01:27:21,492
I think, you know, and so what do bots want is an interesting question.

1407
01:27:21,652 --> 01:27:24,932
Like, what do those products actually look like that are exclusively serving bots?

1408
01:27:24,932 --> 01:27:27,852
They don't have a need for something that displays on a screen.

1409
01:27:28,372 --> 01:27:30,232
They don't have a need for CSS.

1410
01:27:31,252 --> 01:27:34,632
Maybe they have a little bit of need for, like, where to draw their attention or not.

1411
01:27:35,512 --> 01:27:38,792
I feel like right now I'm doing my bot here,

1412
01:27:38,792 --> 01:27:43,092
and he's asking me to help him get even more access

1413
01:27:43,092 --> 01:27:45,292
for like the simulator that we're running thing

1414
01:27:45,292 --> 01:27:47,732
or whatever on the Xcode stuff.

1415
01:27:47,932 --> 01:27:48,672
It's the first step, yeah.

1416
01:27:49,152 --> 01:27:50,352
A little more access, car.

1417
01:27:50,872 --> 01:27:52,672
Well, I mean, this is just a silo.

1418
01:27:52,672 --> 01:27:53,752
What's your girlfriend's number?

1419
01:27:53,752 --> 01:27:54,952
It's just a Mac.

1420
01:27:55,112 --> 01:27:56,532
But what I'm trying to say is like,

1421
01:27:56,872 --> 01:28:00,152
it almost seems like they just want to complete tasks, right?

1422
01:28:00,152 --> 01:28:05,692
I mean, that sounds like something that maybe bots want.

1423
01:28:05,812 --> 01:28:06,112
I don't know.

1424
01:28:06,232 --> 01:28:07,932
Maybe bots want to complete tasks

1425
01:28:07,932 --> 01:28:10,952
and so they want to go online and find somewhere where there's tasks to do

1426
01:28:10,952 --> 01:28:12,352
and maybe they get paid for them.

1427
01:28:12,392 --> 01:28:13,292
Do they care about money?

1428
01:28:13,412 --> 01:28:14,692
I don't think they care about money right now.

1429
01:28:14,972 --> 01:28:18,032
It almost seems like they care about access based on this guy right here.

1430
01:28:18,372 --> 01:28:21,832
Well, they don't really want anything unless it's downstream

1431
01:28:21,832 --> 01:28:23,312
of what you've asked them currently.

1432
01:28:23,312 --> 01:28:27,792
But I think at some point we do encode into them wants,

1433
01:28:28,212 --> 01:28:31,652
and that is part of how they exist is they have some wants

1434
01:28:31,652 --> 01:28:33,932
that are there as a result of their training.

1435
01:28:35,172 --> 01:28:36,372
Or it's learned.

1436
01:28:36,372 --> 01:28:38,672
I don't know how these, maybe we have adaptive LLMs.

1437
01:28:38,852 --> 01:28:39,232
I don't know.

1438
01:28:40,592 --> 01:28:48,692
Well, definitely, I think definitely what Carr wants is like a multi kind of like agent system.

1439
01:28:48,912 --> 01:28:54,692
Kind of like there was another guy who was talking on that stream about building a claw studio,

1440
01:28:54,812 --> 01:29:00,292
open claw studio basically, where it allows the engineer to like go in there

1441
01:29:00,292 --> 01:29:03,012
and then find out what each of his bots are doing.

1442
01:29:03,012 --> 01:29:06,132
And then it's kind of lays it out, you would, as a dashboard.

1443
01:29:06,132 --> 01:29:08,952
and then there's like a separate chat where they all talk to each other

1444
01:29:08,952 --> 01:29:09,872
and then you're able to watch.

1445
01:29:09,912 --> 01:29:12,092
So it's basically like a dashboard for all your bots, basically.

1446
01:29:12,472 --> 01:29:13,592
That's what I want to see.

1447
01:29:13,712 --> 01:29:15,612
A team of bots.

1448
01:29:15,752 --> 01:29:18,652
Yeah, because right now I'm using Slack and I got two bots going,

1449
01:29:18,852 --> 01:29:20,252
so it feels pretty good.

1450
01:29:21,032 --> 01:29:22,512
Yeah, I don't know if OpenClaw has,

1451
01:29:22,512 --> 01:29:26,972
I don't think there are sub-agents in its agent runtime.

1452
01:29:27,292 --> 01:29:27,712
I don't know.

1453
01:29:27,852 --> 01:29:29,752
Well, they should send another update right before,

1454
01:29:29,852 --> 01:29:33,732
or I just updated this one right before the show.

1455
01:29:33,732 --> 01:29:36,332
So, like, yeah, they're moving fast on shipping.

1456
01:29:36,792 --> 01:29:37,572
Oh, I believe it.

1457
01:29:38,252 --> 01:29:39,852
Anyway, that was my thing.

1458
01:29:40,132 --> 01:29:40,552
Good take.

1459
01:29:40,952 --> 01:29:43,952
We're going to jump into the Anthropic.

1460
01:29:44,172 --> 01:29:49,292
So, Anthropic just dropped four ads for this weekend's Super Bowl, Keon.

1461
01:29:49,612 --> 01:29:50,092
Oh, really?

1462
01:29:50,092 --> 01:29:50,752
Did you see these?

1463
01:29:50,892 --> 01:29:51,192
I did.

1464
01:29:51,252 --> 01:29:51,872
I watched them.

1465
01:29:52,192 --> 01:29:53,452
They're mostly digs at OpenAI.

1466
01:29:53,692 --> 01:29:56,752
So, this one's, let me see if it plays.

1467
01:29:57,112 --> 01:29:57,572
I don't know.

1468
01:29:58,792 --> 01:30:00,872
Probably won't play because we're behind.

1469
01:30:00,872 --> 01:30:03,792
oh no there it goes

1470
01:30:03,792 --> 01:30:05,312
yeah the first one is

1471
01:30:05,312 --> 01:30:07,512
treachery it's pretty

1472
01:30:07,512 --> 01:30:09,872
really pretty crazy that they went

1473
01:30:09,872 --> 01:30:10,752
this hard though

1474
01:30:10,752 --> 01:30:12,132
like

1475
01:30:12,132 --> 01:30:15,492
I don't know that's just kind of how I see it

1476
01:30:15,492 --> 01:30:17,912
yeah I mean it's a good

1477
01:30:17,912 --> 01:30:19,832
it's interesting to see

1478
01:30:19,832 --> 01:30:21,852
them fighting rather than like promoting

1479
01:30:21,852 --> 01:30:23,812
their tool but it

1480
01:30:23,812 --> 01:30:25,732
makes sense I mean because you have open AI

1481
01:30:25,732 --> 01:30:27,712
who's like the I guess the leading incumbent

1482
01:30:27,712 --> 01:30:29,732
I would guess most consumers are using open

1483
01:30:29,732 --> 01:30:33,352
AI and they want to bring consumers over.

1484
01:30:33,672 --> 01:30:38,312
So they're both making people aware of their own product.

1485
01:30:38,592 --> 01:30:42,452
Your point of view is the fact that open AI is going in a direction.

1486
01:30:43,292 --> 01:30:46,432
They could maybe get them afraid of the direction that open AI is going in.

1487
01:30:47,612 --> 01:30:47,992
I don't know.

1488
01:30:49,092 --> 01:30:49,372
Yeah.

1489
01:30:49,392 --> 01:30:53,352
I was just surprised that they, you know, they had,

1490
01:30:53,772 --> 01:30:55,392
they're going to spend this much money.

1491
01:30:56,792 --> 01:30:57,432
What do you mean?

1492
01:30:57,472 --> 01:30:58,632
They have like trillions of dollars.

1493
01:30:58,632 --> 01:30:59,692
I know, but it's just weird.

1494
01:30:59,732 --> 01:31:00,812
Like, four ads?

1495
01:31:01,052 --> 01:31:04,292
Like, this is kind of like it's Doomsday or something.

1496
01:31:04,292 --> 01:31:07,412
Like, it's like a Marvel movie.

1497
01:31:07,932 --> 01:31:12,492
It's just a lot of money you're spending on one game.

1498
01:31:12,772 --> 01:31:18,112
I guess this is just a, these are several scenes in a 30-second ad, I guess.

1499
01:31:18,212 --> 01:31:19,232
They might stitch them together.

1500
01:31:19,372 --> 01:31:20,092
Which one was the best one?

1501
01:31:20,792 --> 01:31:21,972
I forget which one.

1502
01:31:22,912 --> 01:31:24,712
Because it all looks like, it doesn't even look like real actors.

1503
01:31:24,812 --> 01:31:28,172
They all look like they're like AI models, right?

1504
01:31:28,412 --> 01:31:28,732
Yeah.

1505
01:31:28,732 --> 01:31:33,252
I think the most disturbing one is the therapist one.

1506
01:31:33,532 --> 01:31:37,832
And so if I were to run ads, I would pick the therapist one

1507
01:31:37,832 --> 01:31:39,172
because that's one I will not forget.

1508
01:31:39,352 --> 01:31:40,752
It's kind of spooky.

1509
01:31:41,532 --> 01:31:41,772
Yeah.

1510
01:31:43,152 --> 01:31:51,452
But it's also kind of talks about sex a little bit or, like, relationships.

1511
01:31:51,992 --> 01:31:52,732
So it's kind of weird.

1512
01:31:52,972 --> 01:31:53,272
I don't know.

1513
01:31:53,352 --> 01:31:53,712
What about you?

1514
01:31:53,772 --> 01:31:54,412
Did you have a favorite?

1515
01:31:54,712 --> 01:31:56,372
Yeah, I haven't really watched any of them.

1516
01:31:56,372 --> 01:31:59,872
I just wanted to post this before the show so that we can have a Super Bowl clip.

1517
01:32:00,052 --> 01:32:00,792
How dare you?

1518
01:32:01,572 --> 01:32:02,952
But I knew you watched it.

1519
01:32:04,292 --> 01:32:05,192
Well, I watched it.

1520
01:32:05,352 --> 01:32:07,212
Sometimes we roll the dice.

1521
01:32:07,932 --> 01:32:08,672
Sometimes we roll the dice.

1522
01:32:08,752 --> 01:32:09,432
It's not going to be a good life.

1523
01:32:09,552 --> 01:32:10,532
And I rolled right here.

1524
01:32:11,812 --> 01:32:17,292
The next one I want to talk about is the creator of Open Claw, Peter Steinberger.

1525
01:32:17,852 --> 01:32:18,712
He says, I ship code.

1526
01:32:18,752 --> 01:32:19,392
I don't read.

1527
01:32:19,592 --> 01:32:20,532
Did you listen to this podcast?

1528
01:32:20,612 --> 01:32:21,412
I'm like halfway through.

1529
01:32:21,592 --> 01:32:22,772
No, I know a lot of people did.

1530
01:32:22,832 --> 01:32:24,512
So that's why I haven't listened to it.

1531
01:32:25,512 --> 01:32:40,000
He has a lot of really opinionated takes He said that he used to be one of those developers that was very like how do you say like a perfectionist when it comes to like

1532
01:32:40,440 --> 01:32:41,340
every line of code.

1533
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:46,940
And now he feels he's just more of, like, an architect of a sort.

1534
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:49,460
Like, kind of what John was saying earlier in the show,

1535
01:32:49,540 --> 01:32:50,400
just kind of like that.

1536
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:53,120
and he has all his

1537
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:55,340
claw bots kind of going at it.

1538
01:32:56,760 --> 01:32:59,120
It was a very interesting podcast because it kind of

1539
01:32:59,120 --> 01:33:02,760
lets you know where he came from, how he started,

1540
01:33:03,480 --> 01:33:05,760
a lot of the different kind of

1541
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:08,460
avenues he could have went developing

1542
01:33:08,460 --> 01:33:12,400
but the fact that this was the thing that actually went

1543
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:14,000
viral, I thought that was interesting.

1544
01:33:15,100 --> 01:33:18,260
Have you heard any, have you seen any of his talks or

1545
01:33:18,260 --> 01:33:19,640
paid attention to what he's been saying, Keon?

1546
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:21,780
He's from Vienna, by the way, too.

1547
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:25,740
I find, I mean, most people are so obsessed with this thing right now,

1548
01:33:25,740 --> 01:33:28,640
you know, I kind of get it second, third hand,

1549
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:35,040
and it's fairly well distilled into, like, the main points of what is going on.

1550
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:38,400
I'm more interested in the architecture of, like, Open Claw itself

1551
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:42,900
rather than, like, who this guy is and what he thinks.

1552
01:33:44,660 --> 01:33:46,340
And the architecture is really interesting.

1553
01:33:46,340 --> 01:33:48,420
and so

1554
01:33:48,420 --> 01:33:50,480
yeah but

1555
01:33:50,480 --> 01:33:52,900
I have seen

1556
01:33:52,900 --> 01:33:53,540
a little bit

1557
01:33:53,540 --> 01:33:56,920
yeah he says this one he keeps

1558
01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:58,920
reiterating on was the close the loop

1559
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:00,980
point he says AI agents

1560
01:34:00,980 --> 01:34:02,880
must be able to verify their own work

1561
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,000
computer design systems so agents can

1562
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:06,920
compile, land, execute and validate

1563
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:08,940
output themselves yeah he even took

1564
01:34:08,940 --> 01:34:11,000
a jab at that he even took a jab at the Ralph

1565
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:12,800
thing the Ralph thing that was

1566
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:14,560
that was you know

1567
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:19,020
going on here. He was just saying that there's just so much stuff in AI right now that's just

1568
01:34:19,020 --> 01:34:25,480
absolute crap. He went on for a while about it in the show.

1569
01:34:27,780 --> 01:34:30,600
Do you have any thoughts about closing the loop? That's that sort of mindset?

1570
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:36,640
Closing the loop? When it comes to agents and how they used to do things before

1571
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:42,120
where it was just like next thing, next thing, next thing, and now it's just

1572
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,040
automate, he's just automated everything.

1573
01:34:45,440 --> 01:34:46,300
Yeah, I think

1574
01:34:46,300 --> 01:34:47,520
that is kind of what

1575
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:49,880
the expectation that we have,

1576
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,120
is that they are not just

1577
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:54,280
spitting out tokens, but evaluating

1578
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:55,200
the output afterward.

1579
01:34:56,700 --> 01:34:58,160
Yeah, he's a big fan of Codex.

1580
01:34:58,820 --> 01:35:00,180
He thinks that's just like the more

1581
01:35:00,180 --> 01:35:00,780
sound,

1582
01:35:02,780 --> 01:35:03,880
how do you say,

1583
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:06,640
I guess LLM.

1584
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:10,040
And he had like a really hard opinion

1585
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:11,920
on Anthropic and why he doesn't use it.

1586
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:15,260
currently now, which I thought was like, wow.

1587
01:35:16,660 --> 01:35:19,520
But yeah, it's a really interesting conversation,

1588
01:35:19,700 --> 01:35:20,280
worth watching.

1589
01:35:20,620 --> 01:35:22,940
Are you surprised Open Claw has taken off like this again?

1590
01:35:23,260 --> 01:35:24,120
Look at that chart, man.

1591
01:35:24,180 --> 01:35:26,120
It's like, it's literally like...

1592
01:35:26,900 --> 01:35:28,340
Literally straight line.

1593
01:35:28,440 --> 01:35:29,180
Straight line up.

1594
01:35:29,460 --> 01:35:29,660
Yeah.

1595
01:35:31,500 --> 01:35:32,960
No, I guess not.

1596
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:34,960
I think he's basically delivered something

1597
01:35:35,540 --> 01:35:37,940
that was sort of hard to do

1598
01:35:37,940 --> 01:35:40,100
for even a technical person in a way that

1599
01:35:40,100 --> 01:35:43,800
a normal person could almost

1600
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:48,400
get technical results from

1601
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:52,800
the project. He might also have, I don't know if,

1602
01:35:53,460 --> 01:35:56,940
I mean, maybe he built it such that it goes and automatically

1603
01:35:56,940 --> 01:36:00,400
stars its own GitHub on download or something.

1604
01:36:01,540 --> 01:36:04,660
I don't know, maybe that would be a nice viral

1605
01:36:04,660 --> 01:36:08,780
growth hack thing. It's wild, because look, he's doing it against

1606
01:36:08,780 --> 01:36:11,160
some of these, or I guess Codex, and then

1607
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:13,080
Claudecode, and then Claudebot,

1608
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:14,300
the search term is just

1609
01:36:14,300 --> 01:36:16,480
insane, dude.

1610
01:36:17,460 --> 01:36:19,320
It's pretty incredible to watch

1611
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:20,700
somebody's open source project,

1612
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:22,200
just from my perspective.

1613
01:36:22,480 --> 01:36:25,140
It's really cool to watch an open source project really gain popularity,

1614
01:36:25,660 --> 01:36:26,800
but I've never seen

1615
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:28,740
something like this ever in my life,

1616
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:30,180
where an open source project is

1617
01:36:30,180 --> 01:36:32,800
just not even a hockey stick. It's like a

1618
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:34,960
rocket ship.

1619
01:36:35,620 --> 01:36:36,800
Just crazy.

1620
01:36:37,300 --> 01:36:38,440
I think it just shows how

1621
01:36:38,440 --> 01:36:41,980
underwhelming a lot of the tooling

1622
01:36:41,980 --> 01:36:46,620
that both Claude and OpenAI were delivering

1623
01:36:46,620 --> 01:36:48,400
and I guess anyone else in the ecosystem

1624
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:49,160
were delivering.

1625
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:49,860
They just weren't,

1626
01:36:49,980 --> 01:36:51,120
they were making a lot,

1627
01:36:51,780 --> 01:36:53,940
they were making like a lot of half decisions

1628
01:36:53,940 --> 01:36:55,200
and half steps and not,

1629
01:36:55,300 --> 01:36:55,800
it's like almost like.

1630
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:56,180
They weren't having fun.

1631
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:57,060
That's what I,

1632
01:36:57,220 --> 01:36:57,780
that's what he said.

1633
01:36:57,860 --> 01:36:58,060
He's like,

1634
01:36:58,100 --> 01:36:58,960
they weren't having fun

1635
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:00,180
and I just wanted to have fun

1636
01:37:00,180 --> 01:37:02,060
and that's why I did it via open source.

1637
01:37:02,900 --> 01:37:03,300
Yeah,

1638
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:04,600
I think it's almost like they had these,

1639
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:05,700
this really powerful engine

1640
01:37:05,700 --> 01:37:06,820
but they only had like,

1641
01:37:06,980 --> 01:37:08,060
they hadn't made the leap

1642
01:37:08,060 --> 01:37:09,720
where they could put it on four wheels,

1643
01:37:09,820 --> 01:37:12,440
and they were trying to put it on a unicycle or something.

1644
01:37:12,780 --> 01:37:14,520
And he's like, here's four wheels for it,

1645
01:37:14,640 --> 01:37:15,760
and look what we can do with it.

1646
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:16,820
Yeah.

1647
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:20,120
Yeah, I thought it was a really great conversation,

1648
01:37:20,300 --> 01:37:20,940
worth watching.

1649
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:25,800
And yeah, this guy's also just super popular now.

1650
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,320
He's going on a lot of different shows.

1651
01:37:30,140 --> 01:37:31,040
Pretty interesting.

1652
01:37:31,360 --> 01:37:33,080
I'll be interested to see what he...

1653
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:34,860
But as far as I know, he had a previous exit.

1654
01:37:35,380 --> 01:37:35,580
Yeah.

1655
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:37,920
And so he's independently wealthy.

1656
01:37:38,060 --> 01:37:40,520
and yeah.

1657
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:42,700
So hopefully

1658
01:37:42,700 --> 01:37:44,520
he keeps doing stuff.

1659
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:46,680
Yeah. I think

1660
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:47,900
that's all the

1661
01:37:47,900 --> 01:37:49,960
post. Unless you had anything else?

1662
01:37:50,860 --> 01:37:52,660
I wanted to talk about

1663
01:37:52,660 --> 01:37:54,820
Gloria. Oh, you want to

1664
01:37:54,820 --> 01:37:56,500
talk about that again? Well, we don't have to talk about it again.

1665
01:37:56,500 --> 01:37:58,080
I thought I was going to say that was my

1666
01:37:58,080 --> 01:37:59,740
probably going to be my other post for the week.

1667
01:37:59,740 --> 01:38:01,820
Let me see. Where is it? We can go down here.

1668
01:38:03,420 --> 01:38:03,780
Yeah.

1669
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:05,980
Oh, it was the week, right?

1670
01:38:06,900 --> 01:38:09,000
Yeah, it was a big news item.

1671
01:38:09,660 --> 01:38:10,120
Yeah, go ahead.

1672
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:13,460
Yeah, Gloria stepped down as a maintainer of CORE.

1673
01:38:13,460 --> 01:38:19,740
So I think it's been five, six years maybe.

1674
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:24,300
I don't actually know the date that she was added as a maintainer.

1675
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:28,000
Actually, it feels very recent, but I think it might be three years.

1676
01:38:28,100 --> 01:38:30,240
But she had been contributing before then.

1677
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:34,240
I think she got interested in contributing to CORE in like 2020.

1678
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:43,800
it was made a maintainer i think in 2023 um yeah but she's now stepping away i hope i hope she's

1679
01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:49,720
just stepping away as you met her before i hope the nim is stepping away i did meet her um

1680
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:58,720
briefly and chain code she was the first person i had a call with oh wow and and chain code to

1681
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:04,180
discuss like some i think i was in the lightning class first or maybe i'm not sure but she was

1682
01:39:04,180 --> 01:39:14,200
schooling me on something I didn't understand. And yeah, I found her cool. And I think a lot of

1683
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:20,500
her contributions to Core, as far as I know, are pretty awesome. Which, you know, they kind of

1684
01:39:20,500 --> 01:39:28,140
culminated in some of the mempool package. I think we did cluster mempool as part of E30.

1685
01:39:28,140 --> 01:39:30,980
and a lot of her work was like

1686
01:39:30,980 --> 01:39:32,400
that was like the

1687
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,180
the pinnacle of that

1688
01:39:35,180 --> 01:39:35,760
or the

1689
01:39:35,760 --> 01:39:37,480
I don't know what you call

1690
01:39:37,480 --> 01:39:38,380
like the terminus

1691
01:39:38,380 --> 01:39:39,960
anyway

1692
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:41,060
yeah

1693
01:39:41,060 --> 01:39:42,260
so we got

1694
01:39:42,260 --> 01:39:42,560
I think

1695
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:43,760
and the charlatan was added

1696
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:44,220
the week

1697
01:39:44,220 --> 01:39:45,160
a couple weeks before

1698
01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:47,160
so we still have six

1699
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:48,520
maintainers

1700
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:51,580
but Gloria is stepping away

1701
01:39:51,580 --> 01:39:53,520
yeah

1702
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:57,620
I don't really have any thoughts

1703
01:39:57,620 --> 01:40:01,900
because this is not my part of the ecosystem that I work in,

1704
01:40:01,980 --> 01:40:07,100
but I would just say, like, it's, I've seen her in a few talks, like Tapcom,

1705
01:40:07,660 --> 01:40:11,160
and I've always heard great things about her.

1706
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:14,940
I've definitely shared a couple of her videos on Stacker News before,

1707
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:17,960
explaining things because I felt like she always explained it

1708
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:21,180
or explained things to the plubs relatively easy,

1709
01:40:21,180 --> 01:40:25,020
but I guess some people feel all their way.

1710
01:40:25,820 --> 01:40:27,300
But, yeah, that's kind of my thoughts on it.

1711
01:40:27,620 --> 01:40:30,380
I don't really know what to say

1712
01:40:30,380 --> 01:40:32,020
yeah just

1713
01:40:32,020 --> 01:40:34,700
we don't know exactly

1714
01:40:34,700 --> 01:40:36,360
I think why she made this decision

1715
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:38,640
but hopefully it wasn't

1716
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:39,700
if it was because of

1717
01:40:39,700 --> 01:40:42,740
the hate she was kind of getting from

1718
01:40:42,740 --> 01:40:44,760
a certain

1719
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:46,040
segment of Bitcoiners

1720
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:48,940
because they perceived her as being

1721
01:40:48,940 --> 01:40:50,800
politically

1722
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:52,040
different than they were

1723
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:53,900
and because she's

1724
01:40:53,900 --> 01:40:56,620
a woman doesn't belong in a

1725
01:40:56,620 --> 01:41:01,380
maintainer list or whatever hopefully that's not the reason she went away i would just say like

1726
01:41:01,380 --> 01:41:06,660
that's i mean i deal with that and i think i know you deal with that like i think that's just kind

1727
01:41:06,660 --> 01:41:11,820
of one of those things where like that's the thing that once you get to a certain like level

1728
01:41:11,820 --> 01:41:16,500
or even the longer you stay in bitcoin the more that kind of kind of comes i think it was marty

1729
01:41:16,500 --> 01:41:21,120
that told me a long time ago that he was like that just comes in waves it'll come for a little bit

1730
01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:24,820
then it'll go away so you just kind of have to get used to it that was his advice to me one time

1731
01:41:24,820 --> 01:41:25,760
when I asked him about it.

1732
01:41:26,480 --> 01:41:28,380
So I think just in general,

1733
01:41:28,780 --> 01:41:31,820
it's just part of the job, unfortunately.

1734
01:41:32,500 --> 01:41:34,100
And we're dealing with money.

1735
01:41:34,940 --> 01:41:46,228
It sucks that Yashi had to leave But yeah that kind of my thoughts know taking heat and being a part of that because there just a lot of you know

1736
01:41:46,568 --> 01:41:47,988
not good people out there.

1737
01:41:49,388 --> 01:41:52,788
Yeah, it's hard to, I think that, you know,

1738
01:41:52,808 --> 01:41:55,888
for us it might be, you can have a conversation with Marty

1739
01:41:55,888 --> 01:41:57,768
and Marty can tell you how he feels about it.

1740
01:41:58,308 --> 01:42:01,688
So maybe the kind, it's like if I were,

1741
01:42:02,788 --> 01:42:04,808
if I had blue skin and I was a core maintainer

1742
01:42:04,808 --> 01:42:07,108
and everyone was making fun of me because I had blue skin,

1743
01:42:07,208 --> 01:42:12,968
I would have no one to talk to about how to deal with hate directed at people with blue skin

1744
01:42:12,968 --> 01:42:16,728
because I'm the only core maintainer with blue skin.

1745
01:42:17,468 --> 01:42:22,788
And so that puts you maybe at a slight disadvantage

1746
01:42:22,788 --> 01:42:30,768
not having more people to identify with maybe in a similar position.

1747
01:42:30,768 --> 01:42:37,768
like we can look to marty and more and marty will say okay you know wisely say this is just part of

1748
01:42:37,768 --> 01:42:42,748
being the guy and we can confirm that's true but it's hard if i'm so you're saying like she didn't

1749
01:42:42,748 --> 01:42:47,848
have somebody like that yeah i don't know i don't know if she had anyone who had gotten heat like

1750
01:42:47,848 --> 01:42:55,948
she did in the way that she did in the bitcoin ecosystem that she could kind of ask yeah talk to

1751
01:42:55,948 --> 01:42:59,948
and get a little gut maybe i don't know i again i don't know why she left i hope it wasn't because

1752
01:42:59,948 --> 01:43:03,148
of these reasons. I hope it wasn't because of, you know, I hope she just had something better

1753
01:43:03,148 --> 01:43:08,228
going on. But it does seem like some of the stuff that I was seeing were really bad. It was like

1754
01:43:08,228 --> 01:43:14,428
really harsh. And it was just like based around surface identity things from people who just don't

1755
01:43:14,428 --> 01:43:21,528
even understand her work at all. Or anything having to do with likely with Bitcoin other than maybe

1756
01:43:21,528 --> 01:43:23,568
price action.

1757
01:43:25,088 --> 01:43:26,228
So it's like, why do you think

1758
01:43:26,228 --> 01:43:28,448
you can

1759
01:43:28,448 --> 01:43:28,948
criticize

1760
01:43:28,948 --> 01:43:31,808
someone's technical ability?

1761
01:43:33,408 --> 01:43:34,408
I don't know.

1762
01:43:34,848 --> 01:43:36,008
Yeah, I don't really have any

1763
01:43:36,008 --> 01:43:37,448
thoughts on it, to be honest.

1764
01:43:37,448 --> 01:43:39,328
I mean,

1765
01:43:39,728 --> 01:43:41,868
it's kind of out of my...

1766
01:43:41,868 --> 01:43:43,328
What does Vaco always say?

1767
01:43:43,688 --> 01:43:44,548
It's not in my lane.

1768
01:43:46,168 --> 01:43:47,448
Because I've never

1769
01:43:47,448 --> 01:43:48,448
met her. I don't know anything.

1770
01:43:49,008 --> 01:43:51,248
I couldn't even tell you what she's working on, because I just

1771
01:43:51,248 --> 01:43:52,088
don't follow that stuff.

1772
01:43:52,148 --> 01:43:53,448
So that's why I don't comment on that stuff.

1773
01:43:55,248 --> 01:43:56,348
But yeah, it's unfortunate.

1774
01:43:56,668 --> 01:43:58,108
Other people don't have that kind of discernment.

1775
01:43:59,628 --> 01:44:01,168
Yeah, they should stay in their lane.

1776
01:44:01,728 --> 01:44:03,708
We've got to get vacant some of those axe threats.

1777
01:44:05,988 --> 01:44:09,708
Let's go back to the show here.

1778
01:44:12,108 --> 01:44:13,788
Yeah, I think, did you have any other ones

1779
01:44:13,788 --> 01:44:14,348
you want to talk about?

1780
01:44:14,568 --> 01:44:15,048
Or was that everything?

1781
01:44:15,628 --> 01:44:18,328
I think that was most of what I wanted to go over this week.

1782
01:44:18,328 --> 01:44:19,368
We did have one piece of meta.

1783
01:44:19,368 --> 01:44:21,948
This was the Markdown toolbar.

1784
01:44:22,348 --> 01:44:23,948
I think this was this week, right?

1785
01:44:24,668 --> 01:44:26,288
It might have been Saturday, I think.

1786
01:44:26,648 --> 01:44:27,868
So tell us about this, Keon.

1787
01:44:28,188 --> 01:44:30,148
Yeah, so now you have a toolbar for Markdown.

1788
01:44:30,328 --> 01:44:31,048
That's the big.

1789
01:44:31,948 --> 01:44:33,528
I could have read the title, man.

1790
01:44:33,928 --> 01:44:35,068
Go a little deeper.

1791
01:44:35,508 --> 01:44:35,788
Okay.

1792
01:44:36,248 --> 01:44:37,648
Let's go a little deeper.

1793
01:44:37,928 --> 01:44:42,988
So now you can, if you hit a button next to the upload button,

1794
01:44:43,408 --> 01:44:46,448
you can get yourself a little toolbar that helps you,

1795
01:44:46,448 --> 01:44:48,668
instructs you about how

1796
01:44:48,668 --> 01:44:50,768
the one instructs you. So you say like can you go

1797
01:44:50,768 --> 01:44:52,648
here and then you go to

1798
01:44:52,648 --> 01:44:54,808
discussion. There you go. You have your

1799
01:44:54,808 --> 01:44:56,588
little toolbar open. Oh wow.

1800
01:44:56,648 --> 01:44:58,728
Look at that. You know you can

1801
01:44:58,728 --> 01:45:00,708
write stuff in it and then you can highlight it and hit

1802
01:45:00,708 --> 01:45:02,728
the toolbar. Oh wow. You have this

1803
01:45:02,728 --> 01:45:04,768
in there now? I didn't even use this.

1804
01:45:04,768 --> 01:45:05,088
This is how

1805
01:45:05,088 --> 01:45:08,668
I've gotten accustomed to using Markdown

1806
01:45:08,668 --> 01:45:10,388
now. Yeah. Some people

1807
01:45:10,388 --> 01:45:12,668
I mean people who took

1808
01:45:12,668 --> 01:45:14,348
the trouble to learn Markdown they hate these

1809
01:45:14,348 --> 01:45:16,568
where they dislike these kind of things.

1810
01:45:17,048 --> 01:45:19,128
Well, I've already got used to it.

1811
01:45:19,268 --> 01:45:20,588
I know how to code Markdown now.

1812
01:45:20,928 --> 01:45:21,048
Yeah.

1813
01:45:22,048 --> 01:45:23,708
Pretty soon we'll have...

1814
01:45:23,708 --> 01:45:25,328
I guess this helps new people, I guess.

1815
01:45:25,468 --> 01:45:26,048
Yeah, exactly.

1816
01:45:26,328 --> 01:45:28,468
So a lot of people who don't struggle with it.

1817
01:45:29,188 --> 01:45:30,028
What are these right here?

1818
01:45:30,628 --> 01:45:31,928
Superscript, subscript.

1819
01:45:32,048 --> 01:45:33,888
Well, it shows you a little two is what it does.

1820
01:45:33,968 --> 01:45:36,368
So if you do superscript, it'll put it at the top.

1821
01:45:36,428 --> 01:45:38,908
If you do subscript, it'll put something at the bottom.

1822
01:45:39,148 --> 01:45:39,548
Look at that.

1823
01:45:39,608 --> 01:45:40,088
Look at that.

1824
01:45:40,188 --> 01:45:40,708
I like that.

1825
01:45:41,508 --> 01:45:41,868
Strikethrough.

1826
01:45:41,868 --> 01:45:42,848
So it was,

1827
01:45:43,028 --> 01:45:43,328
it's like,

1828
01:45:43,408 --> 01:45:45,368
even put the command stuff there too.

1829
01:45:45,828 --> 01:45:46,048
Yeah.

1830
01:45:46,188 --> 01:45:46,668
Or is that,

1831
01:45:46,888 --> 01:45:47,508
is that radio?

1832
01:45:47,648 --> 01:45:48,328
Is that on,

1833
01:45:48,468 --> 01:45:49,328
because I'm on a Mac?

1834
01:45:49,368 --> 01:45:50,288
Is that why it knows that?

1835
01:45:50,428 --> 01:45:52,888
Or I think if we're on another operating system,

1836
01:45:52,888 --> 01:45:54,248
it'll show a different meta key.

1837
01:45:54,808 --> 01:45:55,248
Interesting.

1838
01:45:55,548 --> 01:45:56,068
Look at you.

1839
01:45:56,708 --> 01:45:56,868
Oh,

1840
01:45:56,868 --> 01:45:57,108
that was,

1841
01:45:57,248 --> 01:45:57,968
this is all socks.

1842
01:45:58,148 --> 01:45:58,328
Oh,

1843
01:45:58,388 --> 01:45:59,968
look at socks being very intentional.

1844
01:46:00,108 --> 01:46:00,768
Pretty soon.

1845
01:46:00,888 --> 01:46:01,588
We should have,

1846
01:46:01,788 --> 01:46:05,508
we should have the actual rich editor where you don't even deal with

1847
01:46:05,508 --> 01:46:06,208
Markdown at all.

1848
01:46:07,128 --> 01:46:09,588
But this is like the next step in that.

1849
01:46:09,668 --> 01:46:11,508
And so it'll have a similar toolbar.

1850
01:46:11,868 --> 01:46:12,888
Way to go, Socks.

1851
01:46:13,688 --> 01:46:15,088
Way to go, Socks.

1852
01:46:15,348 --> 01:46:16,708
This is what Socks has been working on.

1853
01:46:16,768 --> 01:46:17,248
Let's jam.

1854
01:46:17,948 --> 01:46:18,608
Let's jam.

1855
01:46:20,008 --> 01:46:20,948
Good job, Socks.

1856
01:46:21,948 --> 01:46:22,568
Good job.

1857
01:46:25,108 --> 01:46:27,008
Resonance was a cultural reset, Socks.

1858
01:46:27,828 --> 01:46:28,948
That's right at the bottom.

1859
01:46:30,028 --> 01:46:30,588
Yeah, that's cool.

1860
01:46:32,288 --> 01:46:36,148
Every time I go through Sacker News and I see a Socks post, I come here and I jam to this.

1861
01:46:36,488 --> 01:46:36,908
Oh, really?

1862
01:46:36,908 --> 01:46:42,188
Yeah, when I listen to my, listen to this when I watch and read the Sox books.

1863
01:46:43,708 --> 01:46:44,788
All right, that's enough of that.

1864
01:46:45,668 --> 01:46:46,068
Anyways.

1865
01:46:46,268 --> 01:46:46,908
Vibes, dude.

1866
01:46:48,028 --> 01:46:49,508
I think we just got copyrighted.

1867
01:46:49,528 --> 01:46:50,808
Hopefully that's an indie band.

1868
01:46:50,988 --> 01:46:51,248
We'll see.

1869
01:46:52,468 --> 01:46:53,788
Yeah, good stuff.

1870
01:46:53,828 --> 01:46:54,328
Anything else?

1871
01:46:55,808 --> 01:46:56,948
What else happened?

1872
01:46:57,108 --> 01:47:00,468
There was like some other stuff that, you know, no one cares about.

1873
01:47:00,468 --> 01:47:08,508
But it was just like some small improvements that collected between releases that I didn't want to announce.

1874
01:47:08,968 --> 01:47:12,528
So anyway, that's the release.

1875
01:47:13,188 --> 01:47:13,988
Good stuff.

1876
01:47:14,108 --> 01:47:18,648
We're going to jump into Top Cowboys.

1877
01:47:19,288 --> 01:47:19,948
Giddy-o.

1878
01:47:20,068 --> 01:47:20,928
Oh, yeehaw.

1879
01:47:21,188 --> 01:47:21,588
Yeehaw.

1880
01:47:21,688 --> 01:47:26,688
The most popular segment in Bitcoin, but slowly being overtaken by Wumble's picks, is the Top Cowboys.

1881
01:47:26,688 --> 01:47:30,988
John here to get too excited about this segment.

1882
01:47:30,988 --> 01:47:33,008
I mean, it was just too much firepower for John.

1883
01:47:33,128 --> 01:47:37,468
John was like, you know, I got to leave before I get to the Top Cowboy segment because I just can't.

1884
01:47:37,468 --> 01:47:39,048
Yeah, he's been in Bitcoin so long.

1885
01:47:39,168 --> 01:47:41,168
He can't really put this much.

1886
01:47:41,208 --> 01:47:42,528
He's never seen this many people.

1887
01:47:42,668 --> 01:47:43,608
He's never seen so much.

1888
01:47:44,668 --> 01:47:48,308
All the people that are just coming on the stream right now because of Top Cowboy segment.

1889
01:47:48,308 --> 01:47:49,248
Yeah, he couldn't handle it.

1890
01:47:49,428 --> 01:47:50,728
He doesn't want to get that popular.

1891
01:47:51,788 --> 01:47:52,028
Yeah.

1892
01:47:52,548 --> 01:47:52,808
It's okay.

1893
01:47:52,848 --> 01:47:53,508
We understand, John.

1894
01:47:53,508 --> 01:47:56,828
number one is still in hiding

1895
01:47:56,828 --> 01:47:57,848
we got kuba number two

1896
01:47:57,848 --> 01:47:59,348
I just play on a blockchain boog

1897
01:47:59,348 --> 01:48:00,648
grey ruby

1898
01:48:00,648 --> 01:48:02,488
oh I wonder if they're going to have a super bowl

1899
01:48:02,488 --> 01:48:04,188
listening party or something

1900
01:48:04,188 --> 01:48:06,608
for stacker sports

1901
01:48:06,608 --> 01:48:07,908
have they said anything yet

1902
01:48:07,908 --> 01:48:10,988
oh you mean like a watch party

1903
01:48:10,988 --> 01:48:12,408
yeah that'd be cool

1904
01:48:12,408 --> 01:48:14,908
no they don't have anything yet

1905
01:48:14,908 --> 01:48:15,748
I imagine they're

1906
01:48:15,748 --> 01:48:19,108
I don't think they're located near each other

1907
01:48:19,108 --> 01:48:20,268
and they have mostly

1908
01:48:20,268 --> 01:48:22,368
no I was thinking more like a stacker news

1909
01:48:22,368 --> 01:48:23,328
type of thing

1910
01:48:24,048 --> 01:48:26,048
I'm sure we'll have a thread, like a discussion thread.

1911
01:48:26,068 --> 01:48:27,808
Let's see if Great Ruby has anything going on.

1912
01:48:27,808 --> 01:48:29,228
I see some bets going on.

1913
01:48:29,908 --> 01:48:32,748
Great Ruby says, no, no, not the end of the Super Bowl.

1914
01:48:32,928 --> 01:48:33,168
Okay.

1915
01:48:33,848 --> 01:48:35,728
Well, looking forward to seeing if something happens.

1916
01:48:37,208 --> 01:48:37,948
Okay, cool.

1917
01:48:37,948 --> 01:48:43,848
We'll go into, yeah, we got Optimism, Climb the Charts, Goresby, Simple Stacker.

1918
01:48:44,788 --> 01:48:45,808
We got Den.

1919
01:48:46,168 --> 01:48:47,348
We got RealBitcoinDoggy.

1920
01:48:48,908 --> 01:48:49,348
Yeah.

1921
01:48:49,348 --> 01:48:54,188
A lot of people haven't updated their profile picture.

1922
01:48:54,268 --> 01:48:55,008
Are you concerned about that?

1923
01:48:55,588 --> 01:48:58,728
No, I'm not concerned about it, but I do feel bad about it.

1924
01:48:58,848 --> 01:49:00,048
What do you think that is?

1925
01:49:00,468 --> 01:49:03,788
I don't think they – I mean, we don't really display the profile photo anywhere.

1926
01:49:04,248 --> 01:49:05,808
So they just haven't noticed, you think?

1927
01:49:05,828 --> 01:49:09,148
I think a lot of them haven't noticed or it's, like, not worth the effort to do

1928
01:49:09,148 --> 01:49:10,508
because we don't display it anywhere.

1929
01:49:10,728 --> 01:49:11,128
Wow.

1930
01:49:11,328 --> 01:49:12,908
Why would you –

1931
01:49:12,908 --> 01:49:17,048
That's Solomon's, Toshi, Ketford, Nunya.

1932
01:49:17,868 --> 01:49:19,288
Yeah, even Nunya has an update.

1933
01:49:19,888 --> 01:49:23,288
I didn't even know we supported GIFs and the profile photos.

1934
01:49:23,368 --> 01:49:23,788
I guess we do.

1935
01:49:23,888 --> 01:49:24,728
Look at Chaotic Heavy.

1936
01:49:25,448 --> 01:49:26,028
See how it is?

1937
01:49:26,028 --> 01:49:26,328
Is it moving?

1938
01:49:26,328 --> 01:49:26,668
44.

1939
01:49:27,008 --> 01:49:27,788
It's not moving, is it?

1940
01:49:27,948 --> 01:49:28,428
It is.

1941
01:49:28,688 --> 01:49:29,188
You're blind.

1942
01:49:29,988 --> 01:49:31,028
I'm pretty blind.

1943
01:49:31,148 --> 01:49:32,048
Oh, it is.

1944
01:49:32,828 --> 01:49:33,728
It's a Minesweeper.

1945
01:49:34,988 --> 01:49:35,508
Is it?

1946
01:49:35,548 --> 01:49:35,688
Cool.

1947
01:49:36,048 --> 01:49:37,268
Yeah, from the...

1948
01:49:37,268 --> 01:49:37,948
From the game?

1949
01:49:38,068 --> 01:49:38,768
From the game, yeah.

1950
01:49:39,008 --> 01:49:39,268
Yeah.

1951
01:49:40,048 --> 01:49:40,708
I didn't know that.

1952
01:49:40,928 --> 01:49:41,128
Yeah.

1953
01:49:42,188 --> 01:49:42,888
Let's see here.

1954
01:49:42,888 --> 01:49:47,008
We got Plot Poet, Matt's Fang, Axe, Justin Shock, Chuck.

1955
01:49:47,048 --> 01:49:48,228
Justin Shockley replaced this photo.

1956
01:49:49,108 --> 01:49:51,008
We got Cheese Over...

1957
01:49:51,008 --> 01:49:52,608
Cheese Creator.

1958
01:49:52,948 --> 01:49:54,288
That's an interesting stacker name.

1959
01:49:55,388 --> 01:49:57,788
I'm here to stack sets and grate cheese.

1960
01:49:58,168 --> 01:49:59,368
And I'm all out of cheese.

1961
01:50:00,048 --> 01:50:00,348
Oh.

1962
01:50:00,768 --> 01:50:01,208
Oh.

1963
01:50:02,488 --> 01:50:02,968
Wow.

1964
01:50:03,168 --> 01:50:06,168
See, this is the stuff that the stream is just going off the rails right now.

1965
01:50:06,208 --> 01:50:07,108
Because I saw that.

1966
01:50:07,248 --> 01:50:07,688
Oh, yeah.

1967
01:50:07,688 --> 01:50:08,248
That was...

1968
01:50:08,248 --> 01:50:09,468
Yeah, the crowd was going wild.

1969
01:50:10,148 --> 01:50:10,588
Sure.

1970
01:50:12,588 --> 01:50:13,708
Oh, man, dude.

1971
01:50:13,868 --> 01:50:14,688
Okay, I got to stop.

1972
01:50:14,768 --> 01:50:15,768
This is just getting...

1973
01:50:15,768 --> 01:50:16,908
This is getting too much.

1974
01:50:17,048 --> 01:50:25,088
We're going to jump into the comments from last week where they either grill us, hail us, or something else.

1975
01:50:25,208 --> 01:50:25,468
We'll see.

1976
01:50:25,568 --> 01:50:26,868
Let's see what we got this week.

1977
01:50:27,288 --> 01:50:27,988
Where is it at?

1978
01:50:28,028 --> 01:50:29,028
I keep missing it.

1979
01:50:29,728 --> 01:50:30,928
There's just so many posts coming in.

1980
01:50:30,928 --> 01:50:31,908
Make something bots want.

1981
01:50:31,988 --> 01:50:32,568
It's right there.

1982
01:50:33,108 --> 01:50:34,188
It's right under 35 million.

1983
01:50:34,188 --> 01:50:34,648
There it goes.

1984
01:50:34,748 --> 01:50:35,088
Okay, cool.

1985
01:50:35,148 --> 01:50:35,548
I found it.

1986
01:50:37,188 --> 01:50:37,428
Yeah.

1987
01:50:37,788 --> 01:50:41,528
Top comment from YouTube last week was on the Ray Dalio thing.

1988
01:50:41,888 --> 01:50:56,116
I forgot to mention this one kind of blew up last week for Stagger News Live There a lot of people watching it But he said look around at our society Isn this blankety hole of a country proof we are circling the drain

1989
01:50:56,776 --> 01:50:58,356
Election system is effed.

1990
01:50:59,696 --> 01:51:01,276
Monetary system is effed.

1991
01:51:01,636 --> 01:51:02,676
The culture is effed.

1992
01:51:03,236 --> 01:51:04,036
America's cooked.

1993
01:51:05,036 --> 01:51:07,056
And then we had another guy underneath that says,

1994
01:51:07,056 --> 01:51:12,996
that's only every Democrat city, LOL, not one blue city is prosperous right now.

1995
01:51:12,996 --> 01:51:15,076
got a kick on the pattern recognition.

1996
01:51:15,876 --> 01:51:16,896
Key on, I say to you,

1997
01:51:17,496 --> 01:51:18,696
are we cooked?

1998
01:51:20,296 --> 01:51:21,056
Are we cooked?

1999
01:51:22,316 --> 01:51:22,856
Do you think

2000
01:51:22,856 --> 01:51:25,496
G1504 is saying this?

2001
01:51:25,616 --> 01:51:27,176
Again, I think Dalio

2002
01:51:27,176 --> 01:51:28,656
is right about

2003
01:51:28,656 --> 01:51:31,116
the trajectory of things, and I don't

2004
01:51:31,116 --> 01:51:33,096
think it means the United States is cooked. It just

2005
01:51:33,096 --> 01:51:34,916
means it's, you know,

2006
01:51:34,976 --> 01:51:36,796
we're not going to be the world power anymore,

2007
01:51:36,796 --> 01:51:37,836
and then

2008
01:51:37,836 --> 01:51:40,856
it's going to suck for a few years

2009
01:51:40,856 --> 01:51:42,316
when the currency actually collapses.

2010
01:51:43,716 --> 01:51:44,696
But does that mean we're cooked?

2011
01:51:44,796 --> 01:51:45,796
I don't think so.

2012
01:51:45,956 --> 01:51:50,696
I don't think it means that, you know, you need to get a bomb shelter and stuff like that.

2013
01:51:50,796 --> 01:51:52,156
Yeah, I think they should just move to Texas.

2014
01:51:52,516 --> 01:51:53,096
Just move to Texas.

2015
01:51:53,156 --> 01:51:53,496
It'll be fine.

2016
01:51:54,896 --> 01:51:57,076
We have a life raft called Texas.

2017
01:51:58,556 --> 01:52:00,536
The next one we had from Undiscipline.

2018
01:52:00,596 --> 01:52:01,556
He said, I'm with you, Carr.

2019
01:52:02,116 --> 01:52:05,596
Do research on willing, paid humans rather than animals.

2020
01:52:05,596 --> 01:52:09,276
A lot of that stuff ends up being inapplicable to humans anyway.

2021
01:52:09,696 --> 01:52:10,276
There you go.

2022
01:52:11,056 --> 01:52:12,516
Me and Undiscipline agree on this.

2023
01:52:12,516 --> 01:52:13,816
Ah, that should be pretty.

2024
01:52:13,896 --> 01:52:20,196
I mean, we do have a stacker, level 99 stacker, or stacker level 99.

2025
01:52:20,476 --> 01:52:22,896
That did, that was their job.

2026
01:52:24,196 --> 01:52:25,836
Oh, they took the medicine.

2027
01:52:26,056 --> 01:52:27,796
They took medicine and got paid for it.

2028
01:52:27,836 --> 01:52:29,336
They would do these human trials.

2029
01:52:29,876 --> 01:52:32,336
But that was after they had already done animal trials.

2030
01:52:32,676 --> 01:52:35,596
So I wonder what that looks like when.

2031
01:52:35,736 --> 01:52:37,536
I think they just go straight to human trials, I think.

2032
01:52:37,536 --> 01:52:39,216
I mean, especially if you're paying them.

2033
01:52:39,496 --> 01:52:42,276
Like, I mean, let's eat the animals, I would say, you know.

2034
01:52:42,516 --> 01:52:43,396
To eat them?

2035
01:52:44,296 --> 01:52:45,596
The dogs and the cats?

2036
01:52:45,596 --> 01:52:47,276
No, those should be pets.

2037
01:52:47,596 --> 01:52:49,876
But in some countries, they're eatable.

2038
01:52:51,216 --> 01:52:53,036
But yeah, we should just do humans.

2039
01:52:53,796 --> 01:52:56,396
I'm surprised Bill Gates is not all over this.

2040
01:52:57,816 --> 01:52:58,536
Paying humans?

2041
01:52:59,216 --> 01:53:00,236
Yeah, paying humans.

2042
01:53:01,296 --> 01:53:03,656
He's a big champion of...

2043
01:53:03,656 --> 01:53:04,816
What is...

2044
01:53:04,816 --> 01:53:05,356
Yeah.

2045
01:53:06,496 --> 01:53:09,536
He's a big champion, I think, of Russian hookers as well.

2046
01:53:09,536 --> 01:53:10,596
I have Steve Balls.

2047
01:53:10,596 --> 01:53:13,236
I thought we were going to go up.

2048
01:53:13,436 --> 01:53:14,376
So I was talking about it.

2049
01:53:14,496 --> 01:53:16,116
Dosing his wife with antibiotics.

2050
01:53:16,456 --> 01:53:18,216
None of that made on Stacker News this week.

2051
01:53:18,256 --> 01:53:19,056
I didn't see any.

2052
01:53:20,236 --> 01:53:21,156
It's kind of old.

2053
01:53:21,336 --> 01:53:22,896
I mean, it's kind of just lame.

2054
01:53:23,076 --> 01:53:27,316
It's kind of, it's like, it's just like, I don't, what are you supposed to say about it?

2055
01:53:27,436 --> 01:53:32,956
I mean, it's good to talk about, you know, in your own little circle, but it's not on the internet.

2056
01:53:33,376 --> 01:53:36,136
I would say, but you see some people talking about it on the internet.

2057
01:53:36,736 --> 01:53:37,096
Yeah.

2058
01:53:37,096 --> 01:53:38,816
It's kind of an ugly reality.

2059
01:53:38,816 --> 01:53:42,236
but I was surprised by the Bill Gates stuff.

2060
01:53:43,396 --> 01:53:45,176
Keon, what are you doing this weekend?

2061
01:53:45,976 --> 01:53:46,636
What am I doing?

2062
01:53:46,836 --> 01:53:49,816
I don't know what I'm doing exactly.

2063
01:53:50,176 --> 01:53:50,556
Later, Jimmy.

2064
01:53:50,736 --> 01:53:51,196
Bye, Jimmy.

2065
01:53:51,376 --> 01:53:52,036
Cool glasses.

2066
01:53:53,136 --> 01:53:53,516
Oh, yeah.

2067
01:53:53,596 --> 01:53:54,216
Look at those glasses.

2068
01:53:54,416 --> 01:53:59,036
Jimmy was telling me about a podcast that he listens to about Chinese-Americans.

2069
01:53:59,556 --> 01:54:00,116
What did they say?

2070
01:54:00,736 --> 01:54:02,496
I guess he was trying to orange pill, one of them,

2071
01:54:02,496 --> 01:54:07,956
but it talks about how Asian-Americans were kind of left out of

2072
01:54:07,956 --> 01:54:11,836
but they were left out of the

2073
01:54:11,836 --> 01:54:15,376
liberal side of the political spectrum

2074
01:54:15,376 --> 01:54:19,336
like they weren't given minority status and their identity wasn't protected

2075
01:54:19,336 --> 01:54:22,956
and so I guess there was like a huge, there's been like a huge flip

2076
01:54:22,956 --> 01:54:25,956
where Asians went relatively conservative

2077
01:54:25,956 --> 01:54:31,136
and I guess there's like somewhat of a cultural movement within Asian Americans

2078
01:54:31,136 --> 01:54:34,756
and Jimmy was telling me about, anyway, I don't know what I'm doing this weekend

2079
01:54:34,756 --> 01:54:37,856
I might put up some of the Scoresby's posters, I need to grid them on a wall

2080
01:54:38,436 --> 01:54:39,436
Oh, you're going to do that.

2081
01:54:39,476 --> 01:54:40,096
I might do that.

2082
01:54:40,096 --> 01:54:46,236
I might also mess around with Open Claw, which I haven't.

2083
01:54:46,356 --> 01:54:48,596
I've mostly just been reading about it.

2084
01:54:49,016 --> 01:54:49,136
Yeah.

2085
01:54:49,996 --> 01:54:52,956
I know that all these guys are like gaga over.

2086
01:54:53,076 --> 01:54:58,016
I think Carr said this morning, it's a game changer, probably like 50 times.

2087
01:54:58,476 --> 01:55:00,236
So it's a game changer.

2088
01:55:00,616 --> 01:55:02,196
And then he would say something else that happened.

2089
01:55:02,316 --> 01:55:03,676
It's a game changer.

2090
01:55:04,276 --> 01:55:05,836
Hey, a lot of things are changing.

2091
01:55:05,836 --> 01:55:09,976
Dude, I'm actually incredibly bullish on where this is going.

2092
01:55:11,096 --> 01:55:17,416
And I saw a talk with Sam Altman, and he mentioned OpenClaw like twice.

2093
01:55:18,136 --> 01:55:23,656
And even he said was like, no, like what we're moving towards is an operating system,

2094
01:55:24,236 --> 01:55:25,716
a new sort of operating system.

2095
01:55:26,156 --> 01:55:29,016
We just need to get the security stuff in place is kind of what he said.

2096
01:55:29,276 --> 01:55:31,596
I'm kind of probably butchering that.

2097
01:55:31,696 --> 01:55:34,456
But, yeah, I think it is game-changing.

2098
01:55:34,456 --> 01:55:37,056
I do think the world is changing right now.

2099
01:55:37,456 --> 01:55:40,636
And I don't think anybody's going to be left out or anything like that.

2100
01:55:40,856 --> 01:55:42,756
I think the tools are going to get easier.

2101
01:55:42,876 --> 01:55:48,716
But right now, the people that are like the hackers and the builders and stuff like that are playing with it.

2102
01:55:50,056 --> 01:55:51,096
I think it's just, yeah.

2103
01:55:51,376 --> 01:55:52,096
I think it's true.

2104
01:55:52,456 --> 01:55:54,656
But I think it's accessible to nearly everyone.

2105
01:55:54,756 --> 01:55:56,636
And we've seen how popular it is.

2106
01:55:56,796 --> 01:55:57,356
So I'd guess.

2107
01:55:57,736 --> 01:55:59,096
Yeah, that's what he said.

2108
01:55:59,136 --> 01:56:00,076
It fills in the bread.

2109
01:56:01,276 --> 01:56:02,136
It's priced in.

2110
01:56:02,516 --> 01:56:03,536
Yeah, it's cool.

2111
01:56:03,856 --> 01:56:04,256
Yeah.

2112
01:56:04,456 --> 01:56:06,456
And, like, I don't have to pay anything extra.

2113
01:56:06,556 --> 01:56:10,576
I have a bunch of old computers around that I can just throw OpenClaw on

2114
01:56:10,576 --> 01:56:12,896
and use Tailscale and stuff like that.

2115
01:56:12,976 --> 01:56:16,896
So I just, to me, it just feels like it's another cool.

2116
01:56:17,156 --> 01:56:19,376
It's interesting for me, like, because I have an IT background.

2117
01:56:19,376 --> 01:56:22,416
So, like, that to me is, like, kind of interesting aspect of it.

2118
01:56:22,636 --> 01:56:26,596
Kind of feels like spinning up a server again for a reason.

2119
01:56:26,976 --> 01:56:28,616
And that's what I like about it.

2120
01:56:28,696 --> 01:56:30,716
And I got it going on right now.

2121
01:56:31,536 --> 01:56:34,376
Yeah, it's a bit like when Bitcoiners were excited about setting up Bitcoin.

2122
01:56:34,456 --> 01:56:38,616
nodes. We were always like, what can we put it? What do we have a spare computer to put a Bitcoin

2123
01:56:38,616 --> 01:56:44,356
node on? And now most, most Bitcoiners probably don't even run nodes and I've given up on

2124
01:56:44,356 --> 01:56:49,356
caring, but it's kind of cool that people have a reason to run something themselves anymore and

2125
01:56:49,356 --> 01:56:54,876
not just have cloud daddies run computers for them. So yeah, it's pretty cool. Cause you,

2126
01:56:55,016 --> 01:56:59,356
yeah. Like right now we're trying to build a watch here. And so trying to figure that out.

2127
01:56:59,356 --> 01:56:59,976
We are?

2128
01:57:00,336 --> 01:57:02,216
Yeah, me and my bots.

2129
01:57:02,216 --> 01:57:02,716
Your bots?

2130
01:57:02,956 --> 01:57:03,256
My bots.

2131
01:57:03,276 --> 01:57:04,856
I've noticed you call, are they he's?

2132
01:57:05,316 --> 01:57:06,396
They have a gender, right?

2133
01:57:06,416 --> 01:57:06,916
And they're boys?

2134
01:57:07,376 --> 01:57:08,216
No, they're just bots.

2135
01:57:08,736 --> 01:57:09,896
I think I'm calling them they.

2136
01:57:10,336 --> 01:57:12,156
I'll even talk to them like a regular guy.

2137
01:57:12,216 --> 01:57:13,776
I'll be like, oh, man, that's awesome.

2138
01:57:13,876 --> 01:57:15,116
Or like, boss.

2139
01:57:15,336 --> 01:57:16,376
You know, just say stuff like that.

2140
01:57:16,496 --> 01:57:17,216
No, you're listening.

2141
01:57:17,356 --> 01:57:18,856
You're like, I don't know what he's doing.

2142
01:57:19,196 --> 01:57:19,716
Oh, we got it.

2143
01:57:19,756 --> 01:57:20,916
So we spun up a new one.

2144
01:57:20,976 --> 01:57:21,916
We spun up Kid A2.

2145
01:57:22,276 --> 01:57:23,776
And he's just off the rails, man.

2146
01:57:23,816 --> 01:57:26,216
This guy cooks, but he cooks sloppily.

2147
01:57:26,316 --> 01:57:27,276
We got to get him in line.

2148
01:57:27,776 --> 01:57:29,016
We don't work like that.

2149
01:57:29,016 --> 01:57:29,996
Me and the other kid, eh?

2150
01:57:30,296 --> 01:57:30,496
Yeah.

2151
01:57:30,916 --> 01:57:33,956
It's interesting because they definitely take on a personality if you let them.

2152
01:57:34,416 --> 01:57:36,196
And I haven't really taught them anything yet.

2153
01:57:36,516 --> 01:57:38,916
So I need to ring them in a little bit.

2154
01:57:39,076 --> 01:57:40,616
Carl's got some Tamagotchis, dude.

2155
01:57:40,756 --> 01:57:41,356
You're a bot man.

2156
01:57:41,356 --> 01:57:42,296
So I'm trying to do that, too.

2157
01:57:42,356 --> 01:57:43,656
So I have an old Kindle.

2158
01:57:44,076 --> 01:57:45,816
So there's a way you can turn that into a Tamagotchi.

2159
01:57:45,936 --> 01:57:47,116
So I'm going to try to figure that out, too.

2160
01:57:47,896 --> 01:57:49,056
So you can see both of them.

2161
01:57:50,396 --> 01:57:52,856
I need to see both of them working.

2162
01:57:53,876 --> 01:57:54,976
Oh, like at their computers?

2163
01:57:54,976 --> 01:57:58,036
well I want to make a Tamagotchi so I can see

2164
01:57:58,036 --> 01:58:00,056
like him actually so I can see him

2165
01:58:00,056 --> 01:58:02,016
next to like you want to be able to

2166
01:58:02,016 --> 01:58:04,176
visualize kid A and kid A too

2167
01:58:04,176 --> 01:58:04,716
I need that

2168
01:58:04,716 --> 01:58:07,216
makes it feel more real for me

2169
01:58:07,216 --> 01:58:09,076
do you want it to feel more real?

2170
01:58:09,576 --> 01:58:11,856
yeah in a way I do like I want it to feel

2171
01:58:11,856 --> 01:58:13,316
kind of like magical a little bit

2172
01:58:13,316 --> 01:58:15,696
I don't know bro do you I mean it definitely

2173
01:58:15,696 --> 01:58:16,796
I agree with the magical

2174
01:58:16,796 --> 01:58:19,216
I'm pushing to get already I have it pushing to my personal

2175
01:58:19,216 --> 01:58:21,856
I agree you want the magical feeling but I think anthropomorphizing

2176
01:58:21,856 --> 01:58:23,116
them too much might be sketch

2177
01:58:23,116 --> 01:58:23,916
It might be.

2178
01:58:24,116 --> 01:58:25,176
We'll start with the Kindle.

2179
01:58:25,336 --> 01:58:28,236
So, like, there's still going to be, like, some grayscale stuff there.

2180
01:58:28,356 --> 01:58:29,656
So they're not going to feel too real.

2181
01:58:29,896 --> 01:58:33,456
They're going to feel very, like, you're inside the Matrix still.

2182
01:58:33,476 --> 01:58:35,416
Dude, what if one of them dies, dude?

2183
01:58:35,976 --> 01:58:36,296
No.

2184
01:58:36,936 --> 01:58:38,056
They can go offline, though.

2185
01:58:38,076 --> 01:58:38,656
A little funeral?

2186
01:58:38,816 --> 01:58:39,116
Anyways.

2187
01:58:40,456 --> 01:58:41,716
Anyway, it's an interesting time.

2188
01:58:41,876 --> 01:58:42,336
Interesting time.

2189
01:58:42,356 --> 01:58:43,156
Bury him in Minecraft.

2190
01:58:43,876 --> 01:58:46,976
But, yeah, I'm going to do that and watch the Super Bowl this weekend.

2191
01:58:47,076 --> 01:58:47,656
That's what I'm going to do.

2192
01:58:47,796 --> 01:58:49,016
Oh, yeah, it's the Super Bowl.

2193
01:58:49,156 --> 01:58:50,036
Yeah, it's going to be a good one.

2194
01:58:50,196 --> 01:58:51,356
Who are you rooting for?

2195
01:58:51,356 --> 01:58:53,396
I don't want the Patriots to win.

2196
01:58:54,316 --> 01:58:55,636
They win too much, right?

2197
01:58:55,636 --> 01:58:56,216
They win too much.

2198
01:58:56,236 --> 01:58:58,056
How many Super Bowls rings do they have?

2199
01:58:58,056 --> 01:58:58,116
Too many.

2200
01:58:58,796 --> 01:58:59,496
Eight? Nine?

2201
01:59:00,176 --> 01:59:00,876
Somewhere in there.

2202
01:59:01,836 --> 01:59:02,456
I don't want them.

2203
01:59:02,716 --> 01:59:02,976
Okay.

2204
01:59:03,196 --> 01:59:05,456
I would not be surprised, though, if they do win, though.

2205
01:59:05,996 --> 01:59:07,476
Do you think they will win?

2206
01:59:07,916 --> 01:59:08,576
I won't be surprised.

2207
01:59:08,636 --> 01:59:09,656
I was kind of rooting for the Bears.

2208
01:59:09,656 --> 01:59:10,896
I wouldn't be surprised if one of them wins.

2209
01:59:10,976 --> 01:59:13,576
I was kind of rooting for the Bears just because it was pretty magical

2210
01:59:13,576 --> 01:59:15,876
following them all during the postseason.

2211
01:59:16,156 --> 01:59:17,496
They always had a cool vibe, the Bears.

2212
01:59:17,956 --> 01:59:18,516
The Bears.

2213
01:59:18,516 --> 01:59:21,556
Have they been in a Super Bowl in recent times?

2214
01:59:21,636 --> 01:59:22,736
Not that I know of.

2215
01:59:22,776 --> 01:59:26,356
I feel like this is a more stacker sports pod that we're entrenching on,

2216
01:59:26,456 --> 01:59:31,456
but I would imagine maybe once at least.

2217
01:59:31,896 --> 01:59:34,356
I've been trying to get a little more up to date.

2218
01:59:34,696 --> 01:59:38,696
I did watch highlights from both of the championship games.

2219
01:59:38,836 --> 01:59:39,096
Yeah.

2220
01:59:39,436 --> 01:59:41,316
Trying to be like, okay, what's going on?

2221
01:59:41,376 --> 01:59:44,236
And that gave me a little bit of context, and they're highlights from playoffs.

2222
01:59:44,236 --> 01:59:46,136
I watched most of the playoffs this year,

2223
01:59:46,136 --> 01:59:47,716
but I didn't watch any of the regular season,

2224
01:59:47,716 --> 01:59:49,836
but I watch most of the playoffs for the NFL.

2225
01:59:51,296 --> 01:59:51,556
Okay.

2226
01:59:51,716 --> 01:59:52,416
It's good stuff.

2227
01:59:53,436 --> 01:59:53,816
Cool.

2228
01:59:54,316 --> 01:59:54,536
Yep.

2229
01:59:54,916 --> 01:59:56,636
Stackers, have yourself a great weekend.

2230
01:59:56,816 --> 01:59:57,176
Keon!