1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960 You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free. 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,720 If you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:17,920 So it's all acting like safe haven. 4 00:00:18,460 --> 00:00:23,520 I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,500 currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. 6 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:31,400 I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. 7 00:00:31,820 --> 00:00:34,280 If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. 8 00:00:39,060 --> 00:00:44,500 We're meeting on a day when we hit new all-time highs. 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,260 Bitcoin approached $110,000. 10 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,900 Got Jesse back on the show to talk about many things, not just the price ripping. 11 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:58,800 A lot of good things happening on the unchained side of things. 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:00,620 Watching Gannett Trust. 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:02,380 We'll get into it. 14 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:02,720 Yeah. 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,220 Lots of stuff happening. 16 00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:07,300 I think the price likes Gannett. 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,360 I think that's the mover. 18 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:18,460 I mean, that's been a big discussion in the space right now is, 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,840 are we heading to new all-time highs? 20 00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:22,320 How should Bitcoiners be preparing? 21 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:27,020 How much Bitcoin do people need to retire? 22 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:32,500 How are you thinking about all this as we approach what seems to be another bull cycle? 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,560 Yeah, that's a common question, right? 24 00:01:35,620 --> 00:01:37,640 How much Bitcoin do I need to retire? 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:40,520 I get it a lot. 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,280 And there's so many other questions I want to ask. 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,020 Like, well, how much money are you spending, right? 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,660 Do you need to be on a yacht every week? 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,220 Or are you staying humble and keeping those sats? 30 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:57,460 And so the amount of Bitcoin can vary because the spending pressure you're putting against your Bitcoin stack is the biggest factor. 31 00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:00,760 Right. And age is probably in the second. 32 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,880 A 30 year old retiring on Bitcoin is different than a 75 year old retiring on Bitcoin just because of the horizon. 33 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:08,800 So stacks vary. 34 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:16,060 We've got people retiring with less than seven figures of Bitcoin because they have other assets. 35 00:02:16,060 --> 00:02:21,960 And then we have people retiring with hundreds of Bitcoin and putting very little pressure against that portfolio. 36 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,580 So it can go in a lot of different ways. 37 00:02:25,180 --> 00:02:26,580 But it is a question of the day. 38 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,480 As you're poking new all-time highs, everyone's like, well, how high is it going to get? 39 00:02:29,620 --> 00:02:32,820 And then a huge question is, do we have cycles again, right? 40 00:02:32,820 --> 00:02:38,100 If countries are buying, what would a downside look like? 41 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:41,100 And that's the big question in the retirees' mind is, 42 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:47,860 How do I protect and not ride that downside all the way down if we do have another 70, 80% drawback? 43 00:02:48,820 --> 00:02:48,960 Yeah. 44 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:57,940 No, and I think particularly for younger people having in their mind, like the perspective of 21 million Bitcoin, 8 billion people. 45 00:02:58,880 --> 00:02:59,780 What's the stat? 46 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,280 60 million millionaires in the world. 47 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:10,560 How much, how many sats do I need to get to feel comfortable that I have a sufficient slice of the Bitcoin pie? 48 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:30,100 That feel comfortable concept is just so different, right? Because Bitcoin is moving and shaking and all-time highs are down 30% and that's still within a bull market. Is that comfortable? Can you actually hang it up and like, all right, not going into work and I'm just going to continue to ride these adoption cycles? 49 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:32,720 I don't know if it ever gets comfortable. 50 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:40,180 The most comfort comes from putting as little pressure as possible against that stack, right? 51 00:03:40,180 --> 00:03:45,940 That you're not pushing these withdrawal rates of like 5%, 10%, 20% of my Bitcoin stack. 52 00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:47,120 I'm needing to live on every... 53 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,880 Because then you're requiring Bitcoin to do something for you in the short term, which is just not great at, right? 54 00:03:53,060 --> 00:03:54,740 What's Bitcoin price going to be in a year? 55 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,680 Far less reliable than what's Bitcoin price going to be in 30 years. 56 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:16,080 Yeah. Well, I think one of the holdups too is the ability for people to get into Bitcoin and know where to put it and not only have certainty of what it will be valued at in 30 years, but will they have access to it? 57 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,040 that's one thing that you guys have been very much focused on. 58 00:04:20,180 --> 00:04:23,720 Sound advisory is separate from unchained technically, 59 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:24,920 but within the unchained umbrella, 60 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:31,220 but unchained focused on helping secure individuals and business is and trust 61 00:04:31,220 --> 00:04:31,920 Bitcoin. 62 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:39,160 And I think today's announcement of Gannett trust is a massive step in a 63 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,960 direction towards more certainty for long-term holdings for particular 64 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:43,500 entities. 65 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:44,340 Yes. 66 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:47,860 The Unchained umbrella or family of companies is growing. 67 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:56,100 And the intention will be for Sound Advisory to tuck under or be merged into, folded into Gannett Trust Company as it gets set up. 68 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:03,560 But it is the most robust compliance offering that is out there in the fiduciary space. 69 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:10,280 And so that, in my opinion, was the one thing missing as people want to live on a Bitcoin standard. 70 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:15,920 Sometimes they're in an entity or an organization or have a structure that requires a fiduciary standard. 71 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,120 And these two coming together is solved by Gannett Trust Company. 72 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:29,420 So it's going to be the most robust way to hold Bitcoin and have like true inheritance that can be administered through generations. 73 00:05:30,540 --> 00:05:33,220 So how does this work mechanically via Gannett? 74 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Mechanically. 75 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,760 So as the first Bitcoin native trust company, other trust companies do exist, right? 76 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,580 but they don't build upon Bitcoin in the way that Unchained has. 77 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:50,820 So Gannett in its Unchained roots and using Unchained technology 78 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:56,500 is going to be able to use multi-sig to achieve trust company goals. 79 00:05:56,780 --> 00:05:59,400 And what that likely will mean is Gannett holding a key, 80 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,560 Unchained holding a key, third party holding a key. 81 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,860 Those three keys together ensure that the Bitcoin's not being held at any one spot. 82 00:06:08,860 --> 00:06:13,940 right we could get into the coinbase honeypot we've actually talked about this on our last 83 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:20,000 episode like hey what do you think is the uh the risk out there that the industry might disagree 84 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:26,140 with i'm launching a new segment i'm going to ask you a prediction what what's out there that the uh 85 00:06:26,140 --> 00:06:29,660 the industry doesn't see eye to eye with you at and i was at conferences and they're saying hey 86 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:34,920 coinbase is the best that's where we put all the cut it means all the keys are at coinbase and with 87 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,220 The news of the last week, like, hey, there could be cracks, right? 88 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,400 If you've got exposure to Coinbase now, you could be questioning. 89 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:44,220 I was on the list. 90 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:44,940 I got the email. 91 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:45,700 You were affected. 92 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:46,600 That's not great. 93 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,240 It doesn't feel good knowing that information could have been a lot worse. 94 00:06:51,340 --> 00:06:54,960 That headline could have been private keys being mismanaged. 95 00:06:56,340 --> 00:07:02,080 When you overlay what Gannett is going to offer to the custody space, 96 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:15,140 It means that not all of the keys are going to be at any one entity. And so that gives the Bitcoiner who understands multisig the confidence that, OK, I'm upgrading from a honeypot to a distributed key setup. 97 00:07:15,140 --> 00:07:33,400 But it has to be done in a fiduciary and compliant way to satisfy the institutional and big money of the world, right? Family offices, Bitcoin treasury companies, they're going to need a structure that the CIO, the CFO can point to and say, yes, that is regulated. 98 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,160 that meets all of our expectations, all of our standards, that's going to satisfy our board, 99 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:43,400 our CPAs. There's a long list of industry professionals that have fiduciary obligations 100 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,560 to clients and they just need certain boxes checked. And that's what the trust company 101 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,760 brings to the table. So trust company think fiduciary standard and then Bitcoin multi-sig, 102 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:58,980 like Bitcoin standard through Unchained combining those two things. It's that Venn diagram overlap 103 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:05,460 app that is going to be the true unlock and upgrade yeah this is desperately needed right now 104 00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:13,620 as coinbase via the emergence of etfs how popular their launches were obviously the 105 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:18,660 bitcoin treasury company is what you mentioned microstrategy really leaning into that more and 106 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:26,580 more and now a bunch of copycats coming to market and coinbase has taken a large part of that market 107 00:08:26,580 --> 00:08:28,440 in terms of securing those treasures. 108 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:29,420 Perfect use case. 109 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,140 I've floated the idea internally. 110 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,340 I think it might be too early. 111 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:36,020 That's like a first week in business, 112 00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:37,940 but going for an ETF, right? 113 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:42,420 How is a third, fourth, or fifth place AUM ETF 114 00:08:42,420 --> 00:08:44,880 keeping up with the BlackRock and the Fidelity? 115 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,760 They all just hold the spot Bitcoin. 116 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:48,340 That's what they have. 117 00:08:48,340 --> 00:08:52,360 And so I look at that space as maybe it's a Bitwise 118 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,120 or an ARK or someone on that list 119 00:08:54,120 --> 00:09:03,240 might want to have a multi-sig secure Bitcoin ETF. Gannet can hold a key. Unchain holds a key. 120 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,240 ETF provider potentially even hold a key. Right now, you've got three people securing that Bitcoin 121 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:14,980 and it's not all at Coinbase. I think 10 of the 12 ETFs are at Coinbase, all but Fidelity and 122 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:22,600 VanEck. Fidelity Custody is their own keys and VanEck uses Gemini. 10 out of the 12 are at Coinbase. 123 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,780 And we just saw that they had an exposure last week. 124 00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:30,340 So that's kind of showing you those cracks. 125 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:47,880 And again, it can be a structure and it can evolve into many different use cases of securing coins for large pools of capital with multi-sig, multi-institutional, yet still regulated and compliant to fiduciary standards. 126 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:55,540 and moving from like the corporate and etf balance sheets but for high net worth individuals from 127 00:09:55,540 --> 00:10:04,400 what i understand the problem of holding bitcoin in a trust in a way that makes hardcore bitcoiners 128 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:15,340 feel comfortable has been pretty hard yeah to date yeah as a precursor a lot of trust 129 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:20,780 structures are pursued because you've got to get the money out of your name. It's got to get out of 130 00:10:20,780 --> 00:10:25,340 Marty's name or out of Jesse's name. Because if you die with too much money, there's the death tax. 131 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:31,200 Now that number fluctuates all around. Right now it's about 28 million for a married couple. It's 132 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,820 on the table in the Trump tax bill that maybe changed, but the number fluctuates. But if you're 133 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:39,500 over 28 million, you're in this world where you could be exposed to the death tax. And so there's 134 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:45,160 estate planning where you get the money out of your name and into some other entity. That's often 135 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,840 a trust, sometimes an LLC, but in this case, we'll use a trust. 136 00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:57,760 That trust has to have separation from you. And so when you get into the key management or who's 137 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:04,540 the trustee part of that, there's sometimes a conflict between the Bitcoiner and then the 138 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:09,060 trust structures. Like Bitcoin is like, I want to hold keys, right? That's what Bitcoiners mean 139 00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:13,960 by custody is like no keys, no cheese, keys above all else. Bitcoin doesn't know about trust. It 140 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:22,840 doesn't care about trust. It cares about private keys. But trust company can serve as a trustee 141 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:30,120 on that trust, right? So having a trust company that understands Bitcoin, understands proper key 142 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:37,260 management, that can be the overlapping solution that I need to get this money out of my name for 143 00:11:37,260 --> 00:11:42,940 significant death tax reasons. Now it's in this structure. I'm happy with the rules, 144 00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:48,400 but something professional needs to oversee that those rules are actually carried through. 145 00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:54,000 That's what trust companies or professional trustees do for trust, that they are held 146 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,500 legally to, if I do Sherry Standard, to effectuate that trust. 147 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,280 If it says do this, that's what the trust company makes sure happens. 148 00:12:04,140 --> 00:12:09,600 So having one of those that gets Bitcoin, gets key management, that's the solution that 149 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,960 we saw was missing in the space. 150 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:17,520 and it's over a year ago a lot of hard work went into it it's live we're standing up and really 151 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:24,000 excited about what that's going to be able to unlock yeah i know it's been a herculean task 152 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:29,060 for you guys to get this out there so i'm pumped and honestly like looking at the history of trust 153 00:12:29,060 --> 00:12:34,720 companies within the ecosystem they haven't been so trustworthy i get entities like prime trust and 154 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:40,960 others and it seems like they were cutting corners to bring a product to market that many 155 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:49,380 sort of white label exchanges were yeah we're anchoring into maybe perhaps similar to coinbase 156 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:53,660 they would have been better focusing on bitcoin building on bitcoin and got distracted by 157 00:12:53,660 --> 00:13:01,040 crypto so there are other trust companies out there and they're very um amenable to like alt 158 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:09,000 coins and you know how broad trust companies can be with many different types of assets but what's 159 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,500 going to be the one that starts to go deep into bitcoin right and having it be a serious focus 160 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:22,700 and designing the operations procedures protection security that bitcoiners kind of demand from a key 161 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:30,980 control perspective it was just missing so yeah so beyond the sort of multi-institution 162 00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:36,360 multi-sig what does it mean going deeper in terms of giving those types of clients that 163 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:42,080 that comfortability you know when you're operating at those levels um especially in like the family 164 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:48,340 and inheritance side um i'm sure you've heard the term trust fund kid right these structures can last 165 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:56,380 generations and it is a way to to make money last beyond yourself but with your intentions and so 166 00:13:56,380 --> 00:14:00,500 So when you're having conversations about, well, what did the trust say? 167 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:04,600 Sometimes there can be an interpretation of like, well, how does that apply to the family? 168 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:19,580 So there is, if you're getting into the weeds in each specific family, like trust officers, as they're carrying out the role of the trust, they're like, okay, this kid or this beneficiary has this need. 169 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,560 Does that meet the terms of the trust? 170 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:30,800 and there's a lot of just administration and you're kind of along with the family in that ride, right? 171 00:14:31,180 --> 00:14:36,300 Everyone's kind of beholden to the trust structure and it can't always be changed. 172 00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:37,480 And it just is what it is. 173 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,680 And trust fund kids now because of it. 174 00:14:41,140 --> 00:14:57,540 How does the trust company navigate how money goes out of the trust and to beneficiaries And for what reasons They just very involved um from an administration and like relationship management side of things So yeah that would be 175 00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:03,020 on like the family side and the treasury side, you can look at, um, different strategies. Like 176 00:15:03,020 --> 00:15:11,060 I imagine where you've got Bitcoin and a serious focus on Bitcoin as a treasury company, 177 00:15:11,060 --> 00:15:15,320 but you want to reduce volatility within that because it's too much. 178 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,640 So designing other, let's call them fiat components around, 179 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,740 maybe it's using derivatives or rebalancing to cash in an automated way. 180 00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:25,040 If things get out of band, 181 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:31,960 when a trust company is involved in it has some level of control and being 182 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,940 able to make those like rebalancing or derivative decisions with and for your 183 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:39,480 company, then you can have more of an autopilot, 184 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:47,860 like volatility compression within your treasury. So there are lots of different applications and 185 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:54,060 we're just now like standing up the basics. It'll roll out to unchained clients before 186 00:15:54,060 --> 00:16:01,740 the broader public just because of the pent up demand. And we'll see where it goes. Like I think 187 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:06,360 the sky's the limit because we've seen over the last six months, like Wall Street is here and it 188 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,240 is headbutting Bitcoin head on, right? 189 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,260 Those worlds are colliding and navigating the middle 190 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:17,680 and what's going to satisfy both sides. 191 00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:20,980 Trust Company is just a powerful Swiss army knife 192 00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:22,740 that can unlock a lot of things. 193 00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:26,140 Yeah, well, on the topic of volatility suppression, 194 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,200 you had it in your pre-production notes 195 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,500 that you want to talk about MISTI, 196 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:35,900 which is all these different sort of derivatives 197 00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:42,460 and preferred offerings that strategy has leaned into themselves with strike and strife and then 198 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:52,720 products like misty and mstu which have sort of merged as derivative plays on micro strategy 199 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:58,900 strategy to yeah get a different return profile yeah i think that's a good way to put it is like 200 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:03,700 different return profile right it's all built upon bitcoin you've got bitcoin as a base layer 201 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:10,820 as money. MicroStrategy is a company that is built on Bitcoin. It's got all of the risks of 202 00:17:10,820 --> 00:17:14,640 Bitcoin, right? The volatility, the political, the technical, but then it's got its own set of risks, 203 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:22,820 MicroStrategy risks. Let's call them sailor and key control and profitability and governance and 204 00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:28,180 all company. Then you have derivatives, which are on top of MicroStrategy and they retain the risks 205 00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:31,280 of everything underneath. They have all the MicroStrategy risks, all the Bitcoin, and then 206 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:37,020 their own set of derivative risks. And so when I was asked the question a dozen times earlier in 207 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:42,160 this year, I was like, okay, this is where the question set is heading. I better get into it. 208 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:48,300 And ended up releasing an article about MSTY specifically, because that was the hot buzz 209 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:55,400 of the day. And like, what are the risks? Some aren't so bad. And then others I'd seen were 210 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:04,120 catastrophic in the past. And so I lived through COVID, the March 2020 as an advisor and saw 211 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:12,140 certain ETF or derivative structures. ETFs that use derivatives, they blew up during COVID, 212 00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:18,280 like just unrecoverable, down 95%, never came back. And these were gold mining ETFs. And I 213 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,960 thought that that was a pretty good analogy because Bitcoiners are sympathetic to the gold 214 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:30,420 bugs, right? To this day, gold is approaching all-time highs like Bitcoin, but that ETF that 215 00:18:30,420 --> 00:18:36,020 used derivatives on goldmine has never recovered. It never came back. And so a Bitcoiner could be 216 00:18:36,020 --> 00:18:41,580 right about the underlying thesis of Bitcoin and Bitcoin could be successful. But if derivative 217 00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:46,780 based ETFs aren't managed well, or there's a rush for the exits and someone needs to sell and into 218 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:50,920 a illiquid market, it can blow everything up. It can affect everyone in the pool. 219 00:18:50,920 --> 00:19:02,380 And so the metaphor I started to tease out, which I didn't know if it was kosher or not, but I landed on it and I'm comfortable with how edgy it is. 220 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,120 If a whale pees in the pool, everyone is affected. 221 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:24,080 If a large participant in an ETF structure wants out in size and MSTY in particular is using derivatives to create a synthetic micro strategy position and then call options against that as well, that can be an illiquid market. 222 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:35,420 If there's a rush to dollars, global crisis, correlation to one, everyone wants dollars and a big whale wants out of MSTY, they could sell those derivative positions into an illiquid market where there's no bid. 223 00:19:35,420 --> 00:19:43,420 And it basically, I mean, that's my read on what happened with the gold mining ETF that never recovered. 224 00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:45,960 I've got clients asking questions. 225 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,260 I'm looking out for something like that. 226 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:54,560 Like, what is the risk and how do we avoid a 95% collapse that's unrecoverable? 227 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,240 Because you could be right about Bitcoin. 228 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,420 And if you had too much of your money in MSTY, you're down bad, never coming back. 229 00:20:01,420 --> 00:20:06,620 Sup freaks. 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So let's dive into sort of what MSTY does or how it's 239 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:04,160 marketed the way i understand it and i'll admit my understanding is cursory just at an arm's length 240 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:09,800 from observing people talk about it on x for the last three months or whatever since the beginning 241 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,460 of the year actually so from what i understand you put money into this etf that's your principle 242 00:21:14,460 --> 00:21:22,960 and then these derivatives and options um sort of structures are layered into the etf which provide 243 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,380 fixed income based off the principle that you're putting in. 244 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,200 Is that correct? 245 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:28,600 Pretty close. 246 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,660 Only one word I'm going to pull out of that. 247 00:21:30,820 --> 00:21:31,480 It's not fixed. 248 00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:32,180 Not fixed. 249 00:21:32,420 --> 00:21:33,420 So income. 250 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:38,380 And this is a misconception that was rampant on Twitter, calling it a dividend, right? 251 00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:39,740 Dividends come from profits. 252 00:21:40,820 --> 00:21:42,400 MSTY is not issuing a dividend. 253 00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:43,380 It's a distribution. 254 00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:46,800 Similar, but a big difference, right? 255 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,260 Because the distribution can be options or premiums that are received from the option, 256 00:21:52,260 --> 00:21:55,520 but it could also be return of capital. You give me a hundred bucks and I'm like, 257 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,220 thanks Marty. And I give you 20 bucks back. You have no idea if that was from profit that I 258 00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:05,060 actually used in a business activity or a good investment, or I just gave you $20 of your hundred 259 00:22:05,060 --> 00:22:12,260 back, right? I distributed it back to you, but it wasn't a dividend. And so let, I think it could 260 00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:21,440 be helpful to pause and just what is the income generating piece of Misty? They're writing call 261 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:27,420 options against an underlying position. What that means and writing a call option, 262 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:32,860 it's very simple. It's just trading your upside for income. You can imagine you have a hundred 263 00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:38,980 shares of MicroStrategy and you think it's going to the moon. You don't know when you're like, 264 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:43,880 ah, I'd really like to live on some of it now. Let me pick a date. Let's call it December. 265 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:50,040 And if MicroStrategy goes to $600 a share, I'd be willing to part with it after that. 266 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:56,240 you can have all the moon. I'm happy to let it go for 600. The person taking the other side of that 267 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:03,960 trade is buying the call option at 600, right? Micro strategy. If it goes to 700, they're going 268 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:10,560 to get it from you at 600. And so for giving them that promise of unlimited upside, you're getting 269 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,400 income now, today, you're going to get like a premium or a paycheck for giving them that promise. 270 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:23,320 that is the writing a call option strategy it's one of the most basic and one of the 271 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:29,640 most harmless options strategies it's not one of the more advanced you know levered 272 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:35,260 it's just trading your upside for income now it's more of a protective strategy and 273 00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:43,220 msty is doing that they don't necessarily hold micro strategy underneath the hood they don't 274 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:49,120 They've said they use synthetic derivatives to create what's similar to microstrategy. 275 00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:55,400 So they might not even have the exact 100 shares that are called away at a certain price. 276 00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:05,060 Adds a little bit of complexity, in my opinion, reduces some liquidity because you're dealing with more and more options and less microstrategy shares. 277 00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:06,180 And so it's a risk. 278 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,240 It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but it's there. 279 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:10,000 We need to understand what's happening. 280 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:22,300 I quoted a client what micro strategy yield is looking like at certain price points this week. 281 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,740 And we came up with a range of what could be reasonable. 282 00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:32,860 We got an annualized yield between 16 and 22% that we were looking at for a particular client. 283 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,420 MSTY's most recent distribution was annualized at like 120%. 284 00:24:38,420 --> 00:24:57,620 So I look at that and I'm seeing the same options market, right? We're looking at writing call options against microstrategy for a client. We think 16% to 22% is reasonable trading income for upside. Now, 120% is well beyond that 16% to 22%, but it is happening. 285 00:24:57,620 --> 00:25:07,580 So the questions are, is some of that return of capital, is some of that leverage, is some of that just money rushing in and demanding and it's hot right now? 286 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,500 I don't know, but I see risks. 287 00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:16,080 And my main job for clients is just protecting them against risks that they might not see themselves. 288 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:18,780 So hopefully that's a little glimpse under the hood. 289 00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,620 Happy to click in deeper, tease it out. 290 00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:28,060 yeah well it's it's msty has been one of the like one of those things the last six months where 291 00:25:28,060 --> 00:25:35,320 it's it's reminding me a lot of like waves of altcoin pump and dumps in the past and not saying 292 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:41,020 that msty is a pump and dump i'm just saying the pattern recognition alarm bells are going off a 293 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:46,320 little bit we have people sharing screenshots of how much money they put in what the distribution 294 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,160 looks like and they're calling people idiots for holding bitcoin and i'm just like it almost seems 295 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,880 too good to be true but then you'll be like hey this we're at this inflection point nation states 296 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,520 are adopting bitcoin all these corporate treasuries are adopting bitcoin it's up only from here and so 297 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:08,000 we're are being this information asymmetry that still exists in the market and we're in a super 298 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,960 cycle it does a ring of that right like 2017 is ico's 2021 is nfts now we got mstys they always 299 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,640 have letters. People are piling into something thinking it's a silver bullet and then the 300 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,580 narrative can take off on its own. I saw similar things. Hey, I was years away from retirement, 301 00:26:26,580 --> 00:26:32,180 but I decided to YOLO it all in the MSTY. Now I retired both myself and my mom. She's in 100% 302 00:26:32,180 --> 00:26:38,720 MSTY. Okay. It's not a dividend. So you just call it a dividend within that. What are the risks, 303 00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:43,700 right? Because if you go down 90% and you're never coming back, that can be a life altering. 304 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:50,020 if you put all your money into something and lose 19 out of 20 eggs and it's never coming back, 305 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:57,240 it's unrecoverable. And that's, I'm sure it happened with ICOs and NFTs, you know, FTXs. 306 00:26:57,460 --> 00:27:03,360 And if we're looking at something like MSTY, we just need to know the risks. Now the same strategy 307 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:10,020 can be done. And so what I saw as the biggest risk within that MSTY, that whale in the pool moment, 308 00:27:10,020 --> 00:27:15,840 is that you can just have a private pool. You can do it yourself. You can write the options 309 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,120 yourself. You can stay in your... You don't need to use MSTY to get income from MicroStrategy. 310 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,820 And so that's something that we started rolling out to our clients internally. They're called 311 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:29,940 SMAs, separately managed accounts. You can think of it as like a private pool that, 312 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:34,100 hey, this is your own MicroStrategy. We will do your call option. If someone else wants out of 313 00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:38,520 MSTY, you wouldn't know. You're not in a part of that pool. You're in your own private way. 314 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:47,180 So if and when it is right for clients, there's a better way to do it that removes some of the biggest risks. 315 00:27:48,260 --> 00:28:07,880 Yeah, that's what I wonder is how many individuals, entities that are piling into MSTY understand the risk and view it as a game of hot potato where they're going to juice the distributions for six months, a year, whatever it may be, and then get out when they feel like they've sufficiently produced enough income. 316 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:15,100 Mm-hmm. And is MSTY aware of the narrative they've caught, right? They've caught this 317 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:19,900 big pool and audience and they can juice their own distributions. They can return some capital. 318 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,400 They can take on a little more leverage, get a little more aggressive. And can that cause an 319 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:31,600 unsuspecting person to be like going along with the herd, right? If MSTY is successful 320 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,440 and gathering all of this narrative and inflow because of it, 321 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,400 their incentives are aligned to keep that up, right? 322 00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:42,620 Keep every distribution higher than the last. 323 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,360 And are you marching towards more and more risk 324 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,840 thinking you're in something like a fixed income? 325 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,440 That's the big, because it's not fixed. 326 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,100 It could dry up. 327 00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:52,900 You could have something that happened to Bitcoin, 328 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:56,220 which I don't think would happen and I hope doesn't. 329 00:28:56,740 --> 00:28:58,360 That would affect everything above it. 330 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,780 MSTR and the derivatives. 331 00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:03,500 You could have something to have the micro strategy, right? 332 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:06,740 Something happened to sailor or the company that would affect everything. 333 00:29:06,860 --> 00:29:11,860 And then its own set of risks, like the fund management risk that you're in the pool with everyone else. 334 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:18,540 And you've got the decision making of that manager who's making a decision for all of the pool participants. 335 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:24,420 And so if it's right, I think the private pool is a better way to go. 336 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,320 Just have the options managed according to you. 337 00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:29,160 You can dial it up, make it spicier. 338 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,580 You dial it down. 339 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:31,780 and make it more plain vanilla. 340 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:32,820 It's your private pool. 341 00:29:33,060 --> 00:29:34,400 You can kind of control the temperature. 342 00:29:36,140 --> 00:29:49,240 MSTY is a little bit too much going along with the herd for my comfort Who issuing MSTY It a company called Yieldmax or is that just the name of them 343 00:29:49,740 --> 00:29:51,440 You might have to double check on that one. 344 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,940 I have the fact sheet posted in the article. 345 00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:58,000 That would be a link to the company's page. 346 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,120 What's up, freaks? 347 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:00,860 Stop asking how to value Bitcoin. 348 00:30:00,860 --> 00:30:03,580 Start asking how to value everything else in Bitcoin. 349 00:30:03,580 --> 00:30:10,440 Unchain and Strive, Vivek Ramaswamy's asset management firm, just released a new report called Repricing the Economy in Bitcoin. 350 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:17,900 It introduces a Bitcoin-denominated DCF model and shows what happens when you revalue equities like Apple using Bitcoin instead of dollars. 351 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,620 This isn't just a thought experiment. It's a framework for capital allocation. 352 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,680 Read it now at unchained.com slash tftc. 353 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,340 That's unchained.com slash tftc. 354 00:30:27,340 --> 00:30:32,060 And then obviously this is a derivative of micro strategy and what they're 355 00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:32,320 doing, 356 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:32,620 but, 357 00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:34,080 um, 358 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,940 how does it compare to something like strike or strife? 359 00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:40,420 These two preferred preferred share offerings. 360 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:43,060 So the strike and strife wouldn't be derivatives. 361 00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:43,680 They're not, 362 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:44,040 um, 363 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,280 there's contracts on top of micro strategy. 364 00:30:46,420 --> 00:30:48,160 They're an actual offering from the company. 365 00:30:48,780 --> 00:30:50,600 And those are, 366 00:30:50,780 --> 00:30:53,920 let's just call them sailors way to dampen the volatility. 367 00:30:54,660 --> 00:30:55,140 Right. 368 00:30:55,140 --> 00:31:06,360 And if you don't want all the volatility of micro strategy, but you want to use the power of what it's doing with Bitcoin in some different flavors, that's what strike and strife are for. 369 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:14,300 I do mix them up from time to time, but one is a 10% preferred dividend. 370 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:23,440 So the dividend has a little bit better taxation than bond interest incomes taxed at a qualified dividend rate. 371 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,140 So that can be nice and attractive, 10%. 372 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:32,700 And depending on where it's trading, you can get higher than 10% if you're buying it below par. 373 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:43,560 But it is attractive to the fixed income market because they're not being offered 10% or 11% in their world. 374 00:31:43,940 --> 00:31:51,840 So that way, you're taking that nuclear reactor that sailors talked about with Bitcoin and shoving it into a fixed income product. 375 00:31:52,340 --> 00:31:53,200 There you go. 376 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,460 you got a 10 to 11% yield. 377 00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:57,420 The other one is convertible. 378 00:31:57,540 --> 00:31:58,700 So it's a little bit less yield, 379 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:02,560 but it can retain some upside of micro strategy truly runs and pops that 380 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,380 you'll be able to participate in that. 381 00:32:04,460 --> 00:32:08,640 So think of that one as more of like a hybrid between the fixed income and 382 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,380 some of that upside or pop. 383 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:12,480 Yeah. 384 00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:14,280 It's fast. 385 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,660 And what are your thoughts on all this financialization of, 386 00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:23,140 or the Bitcoinization of finance to a certain degree with all these unique 387 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:30,160 offerings. It's a lot, a lot to keep up with. Um, there are times where clients will ask me 388 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,080 something that I have never heard of. I got one this week. Hey, did you hear about micro strategies? 389 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,740 Third offering STRD or something? I was like, no, I haven't. I wouldn't look. It's fake. It wasn't 390 00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:46,760 even real. It was some hypothetical that a, uh, a YouTuber made up. Like, here's what I think 391 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,180 micro strategy could do. And I'm like, Oh goodness. There's so much financialization and then so much, 392 00:32:51,180 --> 00:32:57,880 social media momentum that can just, it can get overwhelming, but it was inevitable, 393 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,060 right? That as Bitcoin collides with the world and wall street specifically, 394 00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:10,520 they're going to have to interact with its ruthless fairness. And it's like unchanging 395 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,500 potential for how it improves people's finances. And they're going to create products around it. 396 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:41,240 Some will be helpful. Some will fail. Some will hurt people. And it's the humans and the institutions colliding with this protocol that doesn't seem to be moving. It's doing its TikTok next block thing. And Wall Street doesn't operate with that level of patience or consistency. They're going to buzz around it and create a lot of, usually a lot of selling, right? That's where their interests are aligned. 397 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,460 If we can create products and people buy those over Bitcoin, that's how we make money. 398 00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:54,980 So I think it's an interesting time to be a Bitcoin-focused financial planner and advisor because you have to help clients navigate that space. 399 00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:58,540 We're at the top of the call talking about retirees. 400 00:33:59,200 --> 00:33:59,980 They love Bitcoin. 401 00:34:00,660 --> 00:34:02,000 My clients love Bitcoin. 402 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,980 They believe in the future and what it's... 403 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,660 But they're in their mid-60s. 404 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,840 They're approaching 70. 405 00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:09,940 They need to retire now. 406 00:34:09,940 --> 00:34:17,160 And they're wanting to pull some of that forward because they've got more Bitcoin than time often, right? 407 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:28,600 And so a financialized product can sometimes be a solution, but we don't want to approach it without understanding the risks and having balance around it. 408 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,700 So very interesting time to be navigating case by case. 409 00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:41,180 What are all these products coming out and how could I interpret and apply them in a way that my clients are still safe and meeting their goals? 410 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:46,140 Yeah, I think the private pool options play is very smart. 411 00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:53,640 Yeah, I can't put my finger on or I don't know if I can articulate it exactly. 412 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,200 but again pattern recognition alarm bells going off the animal spirits of 413 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:08,200 ex-community groups and um youtubers who think they're trading savants um it's just like uh 414 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,220 some of this seems too good to be true not all but obviously bitcoin nation-state adoption 415 00:35:13,220 --> 00:35:18,420 corporate treasury adoption in and of itself is not a bad thing it's a very positive thing but 416 00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:23,620 all these derivative plays around it with people trying to catch up 417 00:35:23,620 --> 00:35:33,300 scares me i recorded a podcast yesterday that'll come out on friday with the 1031 guys and 418 00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:38,700 john arnold had a really good point like people try to use leverage to become an og 419 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:43,540 they have fomo and they feel like they need to play catch up and accumulate 420 00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:51,240 um enough bitcoin to be on the level of who they perceive to be ogs and the way they typically try 421 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:55,560 to do that is leverage and historically in bitcoin it's never worked out too well for people 422 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:02,720 yes over the years whether it's just at unchanged or sound advisory the two biggest things that wreck 423 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:07,240 people are the ego and the emotion right and that's they're almost combined into the same thing 424 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,680 every bitcoiner i talk to feels like they were late because they know someone else who's in before 425 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:18,940 them. They know someone who got a price lower than they did. And it can feel, it can be a shot 426 00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:23,820 to the ego that you're not as smart as you think you are, right? Bitcoin humbles all of us. And 427 00:36:23,820 --> 00:36:30,040 there's a reason why that saying exists like stay humble, stack, because the emotion and the ego can 428 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,840 lead you to do something, whether it's fear or greed driving you there, that you're going out 429 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,160 on the risk spec and you're going to trade something that's more certain because you're 430 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,680 feeling like you're lacking. And that is what wrecks people. I think it was the underlying 431 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:51,540 thing under Celsius, BlockFi, FTA, that when Bitcoin's not doing something on your timeframe 432 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:56,380 and you want income or you want the yield, I'll just put it with them and I'll get 5% 433 00:36:56,380 --> 00:37:02,700 more Bitcoin. Okay, well, now you've got Celsius. Oh, I'm just going to do this with it so I can 434 00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:08,500 have it. And you're kind of like bartering with Bitcoin because it's not meeting your expectations. 435 00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:14,120 right i've got a timeline i want to do x y and z and here's my ego i want to impose it on bitcoin 436 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,580 we're supposed to be this far into having it should be at this price it's not doing that 437 00:37:18,580 --> 00:37:24,540 this chop is boring let me there's the ego the emotion right i'm going to take a different risk 438 00:37:24,540 --> 00:37:31,780 level with my bitcoin to try and do something with it and i think people are blinded to the 439 00:37:31,780 --> 00:37:40,160 risk by the greed or the the fear or the uh yeah it's um the underlying cause of a lot of bad 440 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:46,660 decisions yeah no i think the the right move what i've learned over the years is that when you feel 441 00:37:46,660 --> 00:37:53,300 that urge to lever up and try to play catch up instead of expressing that by levering up your 442 00:37:53,300 --> 00:38:00,080 bitcoin go try to be more productive and produce more income so that you can buy more it's very 443 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:06,160 real because everyone knows what fear and greed feel like he knows what like patience feels like 444 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:12,420 just it's neutral and it's it's hard and it's discipline and it's continuing to work and build 445 00:38:12,420 --> 00:38:19,460 or or have a disciplined investing strategy if you're if you're no longer working and building 446 00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:24,720 and you're retiring like sometimes people are having to settle for the ultimate enemy of just 447 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,900 like i should have some dollars right if i have enough dollars to ride through a cycle then i 448 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:36,760 know I never need to sell Bitcoin this cycle. And that's the unfortunate trade-off that the 449 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:42,500 hyper-Bitcoinizing generations have to live through. Because we're not a full unit of 450 00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:47,100 account medium of exchange yet. And if we're headed there, it's going to be volatile. And 451 00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:51,320 we'll have this transition period where we live in the dollar and the Bitcoin at the same time. 452 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,500 And in my opinion, that's where all the best companies are solving for, right? How do we 453 00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:03,440 navigate between dollars and Bitcoin as things are volatile, whether it's unchained, strike, 454 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:10,500 river, they're creating these dollar and Bitcoin services and products, secure 455 00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:18,640 and really designed to be a bridge, right? They're trying to build a strong, secure bridge 456 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,600 where you can hop back and forth between those two worlds, dollar and Bitcoin, as your needs change. 457 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:32,180 and i think that's where the majority of bitcoin companies value is being built yeah 458 00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:40,260 it can only be built if you're focused right which is very important yeah it's easy to buy 459 00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:46,640 a ticker symbol it's hard to build something that hasn't existed before right let's see uh 460 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:54,660 the whole bitcoin corporate treasury thing again in and of itself i think it's a good thing but 461 00:39:54,660 --> 00:40:05,100 i think there is information asymmetry a potential financial arbitrage that is being exploited right 462 00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:11,080 now but at some point in the future when bitcoin reaches a particular liquidity profile that game 463 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,580 sort of has marginal diminishing returns and yes you're gonna have to look at yourself as a 464 00:40:16,580 --> 00:40:22,320 business as an entity and be like, okay, how do I actually produce value and turn that value into 465 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:29,080 income and EBITDA that allows me to sustain my business? Yeah. The P&L will matter more as the 466 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,140 balance sheet gets commoditized. Sailor is a pioneer in putting it on the balance sheet. 467 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,600 Early mover, in size, found a lot of arbitrage opportunities, whether it's 468 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,920 the convertible or the preferred. When you're first, you don't even have to be the best because 469 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,400 you're the only, but now there's more and more participants. You're getting Bitcoin treasury 470 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,880 companies that understand that it's powerful to put Bitcoin on a balance sheet. And at the end 471 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,600 state, many, many companies will have Bitcoin on their balance sheet. It's table stakes at that 472 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:05,160 point. And so how are you going to differentiate and provide value on top of Bitcoin? That's the 473 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,040 building, right? And so in my opinion, there are some treasury companies that are doing the 474 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,320 equivalent of buying that ticker symbol. Oh, if I just switched to Bitcoin balance sheet, 475 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,820 all this money's going to flow to me. 476 00:41:14,340 --> 00:41:15,300 Still pretty early, 477 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:15,520 right? 478 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,360 You're probably still within the group of pioneers and that may happen, 479 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,260 but it's not sustainable if you don't have a thesis or a value proposition of 480 00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:27,420 how you build value on top of Bitcoin. 481 00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:32,200 Just having Bitcoin on the balance sheet is not a sustainable unlock because 482 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,800 that's where most companies are going to be headed over the coming decades. 483 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:36,620 Yeah. 484 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:39,040 And. 485 00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:40,820 Yeah. 486 00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:43,640 I can already hear people like Marty you're so 487 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,620 bearish you don't understand what's going on I just 488 00:41:45,620 --> 00:41:46,360 want to say hey 489 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,480 been around the block 490 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,840 few times few cycles 491 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,340 just be careful out there 492 00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:55,500 be careful out there stay humble stack 493 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:57,800 sats exist for a reason 494 00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,740 and then for anybody who doesn't understand 495 00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:01,840 like the stay humble 496 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,240 stack sats meme 497 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,760 started Matt started it 498 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,800 this is like six or seven years 499 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,800 ago now at this point 500 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:16,140 and it's basically just don't go levered long don't margin trade don't shit coin during the 501 00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:21,080 bull market because that's how you get blown up yeah and end up with less than you otherwise would 502 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:28,820 have had yeah if i can fanboy for a little bit i listen to you and matt all the time and i i love 503 00:42:28,820 --> 00:42:33,980 that quote and i've started to uh personalize it for myself the meme of stay humble sacksats and 504 00:42:33,980 --> 00:42:40,840 And I see within the social media sometimes where people ask, well, how much Bitcoin do you have? 505 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:41,640 Not enough. 506 00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:43,000 I never have enough Bitcoin. 507 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,120 I've gotten to a point within my own personal life where I'm like, I feel like I have enough. 508 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:54,840 If I can just stay humble, stack the sats that my bullishness I'm trying to express through my patience. 509 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,220 And so I'm changing that sats to Saturdays. 510 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:58,540 I don't work on Saturdays. 511 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,580 And I want to stack those because if I've got enough Bitcoin, what don't I have enough of? 512 00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:08,180 is time with my family. I got a boy who's about to be seven. I'm like, man, he's getting into 513 00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:16,160 T-ball and I need to stack Saturdays now because the Bitcoin is, I'm confident that it'll be there 514 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,340 in the longterm. And I believe I have enough that I'm trying to build and be patient and do the 515 00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:26,660 things that I think will make Bitcoiners proud and see this industry flourish. Let's stack some 516 00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:31,100 Saturdays too, right? And start to get some time. And like, it helps connect me to like, 517 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:36,740 what is the Bitcoin all for? If I die and leave my family a stack and they're like, okay, well, 518 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:45,100 I want to have those meaningful experiences along the way. And I think that when people find that 519 00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:49,380 value and what connects them to their money, that can pull you out of the fear and greed. 520 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,060 You're no longer comparing to, oh, so-and-so got in before me. They were class of 20, 521 00:43:54,780 --> 00:44:00,740 whatever. I've found a way that Bitcoin is a powerful tool in my life and it's helping me 522 00:44:00,740 --> 00:44:06,200 stack some Saturdays, right? I get to live for now because I feel more confident in my future. 523 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,080 And so I don't know if anyone that had ever brought up that pun or double entendre to you, 524 00:44:12,140 --> 00:44:15,960 but that's what I'm hearing. You guys close out your podcast, stay humble, stack stats. And 525 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,320 I think y'all record on like a Thursday or Friday. 526 00:44:18,980 --> 00:44:23,820 Depending on Saturdays. Okay. Saturdays come in. I'm like, all right, well, I don't know how many 527 00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:42,100 Saturdays I have left in this life We know there 21 billion Bitcoin I only got some time with a six and seven year old and I need to make today count And so that my own personal rabbit trail I love that You never asked for but it is it deeply meaningful to me and helps me remember that 528 00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:44,380 Bitcoin is a tool that should be empowering our lives. 529 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,500 It's that fix the world, you know, fix Jesse side of, okay, if the money's fixed, it can 530 00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:52,740 help be a tool in my life here and now. 531 00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:53,880 No, I love that. 532 00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:54,660 And I've never heard it. 533 00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:56,960 So it's the first time I'm hearing a double entendre. 534 00:44:57,220 --> 00:44:57,820 No, no, no. 535 00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:02,700 It reminded me like last night we had an event here at Bitcoin Park Austin with Adam Back, 536 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,480 Turdemister, Parker, a bunch of others speaking. 537 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,860 And everybody's like, oh, you want to go grab dinner? 538 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,160 I was like, no, I'm going to go home. 539 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:15,160 I was able to make it home in time for bedtime and read stories. 540 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,660 Do you really feel that working in Bitcoin? 541 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:24,000 Like you're surrounded by all the questions, all the news, all the products and people 542 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,400 and personalities and drama. 543 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,320 And did you see who did this and that? 544 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,640 And you're talking about Trump did something crazy. 545 00:45:29,820 --> 00:45:32,600 It can be so much that it's overwhelming. 546 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,380 And to shrink down and be like, I'm just dead. 547 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:36,400 I get to read a book. 548 00:45:36,540 --> 00:45:41,040 Might have read it eight or 10 times before, but I'm never getting these moments back. 549 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,400 And I am so fortunate that I get to work with clients in their 60s and 70s. 550 00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:48,000 And they have money. 551 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:48,900 They have resources. 552 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,040 And their retirement's locked. 553 00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:52,460 What do they want? 554 00:45:52,460 --> 00:45:57,460 a lot of them want to go back to when their kids were six and seven, right? They want that time 555 00:45:57,460 --> 00:46:04,180 back with their kids. And I'm fortunate that they share that with me. And it had brought tears to my 556 00:46:04,180 --> 00:46:07,840 eyes a couple of times because I'm like, okay, well, I get to live like that client. 557 00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:15,060 Their wish is to go back to where I am right now and I get to live it. Right. And I don't need to 558 00:46:15,060 --> 00:46:21,780 be stacking sets right now. I need to be stacking a Saturday and like really making the most of this 559 00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:29,360 moment so yeah yeah no it's really important to put those things into perspective it's the 560 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:35,640 most important thing and i i've had i don't want to say regrets but there's been times where i've 561 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:43,920 like committed to something in the industry gone wasn't it was like i didn't have to do this and 562 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,160 then i get home the kids are asleep i'm like i missed yeah i missed a bedtime tonight that wasn't 563 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:54,600 fun much yeah would have much rather done a bedtime it's that it's that double-edged sword 564 00:46:54,600 --> 00:47:00,920 of success right when things are taking off and bitcoin's winning and your company's healthy and 565 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:08,700 the people around you are excited and want to talk to you it can take you from the people that are the 566 00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:15,980 most patient with you right my wife my kid my dad um i know you've got a story that's like that that 567 00:47:15,980 --> 00:47:22,960 time is so precious and remembering it and anchoring to it is a powerful draw against the 568 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,700 negative emotions that Bitcoin can easily sweep you up into, right? Whether we have a bear in its 569 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:34,540 fear or a bull in its greed, those aren't the emotions that you want in your life. You need to 570 00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:38,240 find something deeper than the tool, deeper than Bitcoin. Like what are your values? For a lot of 571 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:42,920 people, it's family and time. There can be others, you know, hobbies, just things that really connect 572 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,720 you would make you feel alive. That's what the money's there for. That's what's going to fix the 573 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:53,880 world. And that's, once you know that the money can serve that, and you're not just thinking 574 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,700 only as deep as the money, you've got a deeper base layer of what it's all there for. 575 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:06,080 Yeah. It's very, probably. Yeah. I can hop off the soapbox, but I think so much of my job, 576 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,360 I thought I was going to be a financial advisor, but it gets so psychological so quickly because 577 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:17,920 the saying is personal finance is 80 personal and only 20 finance and it's even more powerful 578 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:24,020 in the bitcoin world because bitcoin is such a powerful tool yeah it really is it really is 579 00:48:24,020 --> 00:48:30,460 no no i'm happy you hopped on that soapbox because especially right now as we're we passed all-time 580 00:48:30,460 --> 00:48:34,960 highs earlier we're a little below it but who knows could continue and things are going to get 581 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,340 crazy and it's important to have this perspective in mind as things are getting crazy yeah 582 00:48:40,340 --> 00:48:50,900 and as they get crazy and you feel right and your thesis was proved just remember that you 583 00:48:50,900 --> 00:48:56,160 being right about this is also simultaneously painful for the rest of the world it doesn't 584 00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:02,880 see it as early as you like it's that just don't dance from the uh the big short right 585 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:08,460 is it this is what he says right just don't dance like this is this is not a good thing 586 00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:12,740 we're going through. It's good that we have a solution, but you understand the solution far 587 00:49:12,740 --> 00:49:20,840 more than 99% of the world. And 99% of the world going through pain is not, it's probably what's 588 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:30,580 happening. I prefer it happens slower than all at once, but just don't dance because, um, so yeah, 589 00:49:30,580 --> 00:49:35,240 connecting to the things that are deeper than money will help you from help you from dancing 590 00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:42,500 as others are are yet to transition and haven't found bitcoin yet yeah get uh get so distracted 591 00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:48,100 at t-ball games that you don't even think to death just losing your mind and throwing peanuts 592 00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:54,940 yeah yeah but speaking of like things do seem to be getting out of whack in the traditional 593 00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:59,880 financial system it seems like japan's completely lost control their yield curve 594 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:07,400 looks like we're losing control of our yield curve here in the united states uh is japan losing the 595 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:13,420 their bond market to meta planet yeah it seems like it's very possible market of japan just 596 00:50:13,420 --> 00:50:18,220 flowed into a hotel company that's why i tweeted that out yesterday i was like is 597 00:50:18,220 --> 00:50:24,760 are the japanese using meta planet as a bitcoin proxy yeah they're like the micro strategy of 598 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:31,400 their country right like yeah you know just uh the escape hatch is tiny and so it can easily blow out 599 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:37,400 when the the flood comes none for those who are unaware i think japan's tax situation is such where 600 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:46,580 it's a massive tax benefit to buy stocks over spot bitcoin as well so um it makes sense that 601 00:50:46,580 --> 00:50:53,900 people would flow in the meta planet yeah i think if i could segue a little bit it's that 602 00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:58,820 every country's got that different tax, right? Japan, I'm not familiar with their tax regime, 603 00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:03,660 but pretty familiar with America's. And that is what drives so much. 604 00:51:05,940 --> 00:51:12,060 It's the number one friction in people's lives, right? The CPAs are in business because tax is 605 00:51:12,060 --> 00:51:17,500 there. It's a powerful reason why loans exist. I don't want to sell my Bitcoin and pay tax, 606 00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:18,800 I'd rather take a loan against it. 607 00:51:19,580 --> 00:51:21,400 IRAs, gains, losses. 608 00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:24,860 Bitcoin's trying to be money, but it's not tax like money. 609 00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:26,180 It's tax like property. 610 00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:27,500 And I had used... 611 00:51:28,020 --> 00:51:31,820 Saylor and Jack Mauler had different opinions on this. 612 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,500 Or I think even Odell had one that... 613 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:35,020 What is Bitcoin? 614 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,160 Saylor will say property. 615 00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:38,740 Maybe an Odell would say something like money. 616 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,480 Yes, technologically, Bitcoin's trying to be money and money's property. 617 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,100 But where they disagree is like that tax component. 618 00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:50,240 It's so powerful to just hodl or hold Bitcoin because of the tax friction. 619 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:57,260 And so the thing I pay most attention to is which countries are easing up the friction on people. 620 00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,180 El Salvador being a great example. 621 00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:10,540 But you see other countries or even states in America where they're trying to do something with cap gains or reduce frictions in and out of certain structures. 622 00:52:10,540 --> 00:52:23,880 I think that's where all of the, as the floods coming and Bitcoin is hitting the global world, the water is going to find its sweet spot, right? 623 00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:26,900 In the jurisdictions that carve the trench for it. 624 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:36,300 And so the number one thing I'm paying attention to for my clients is what's coming in this big, beautiful tax bill, right? 625 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,520 Trump has called it big and beautiful. 626 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:39,480 Great. 627 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:40,260 I'm sure it's beautiful. 628 00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:49,000 Well, what's in it and how does that tax affect the Bitcoiners or maybe even other parts of that, you know, Bitcoiners financial life. 629 00:52:49,580 --> 00:52:57,320 But that's once they change the game of the friction, that's what you navigate for people, because it's not an opinion of price. 630 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,320 Price can do this or that or MetaPlanet or Microsoft. 631 00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:03,900 They might do this. Those are just crystal ball and opinion taxes here and now. 632 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,320 And if you say if you do X, Y and Z, you're going to save this much money. 633 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:14,780 very, very powerful, sometimes boring, right? People don't like tax, but that is a needle 634 00:53:14,780 --> 00:53:19,960 mover in Bitcoiners financial lives. And so what can we expect with this big, 635 00:53:20,020 --> 00:53:23,460 beautiful tax bill? Oh goodness. I've heard they're going to eliminate the IRS. 636 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:29,040 Doesn't sound like it would need to be a big, beautiful tax bill to do that. So if it's big 637 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,600 and beautiful, it's probably got a lot of different bells and whistles that are likely 638 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:42,140 an extension of the TCJA. So I know I see there's jockeying between the Senate and the House and 639 00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:47,560 what's going to be in there and what's not. I imagine it's something like the TCJA bill we've 640 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:55,960 had for the last seven years with maybe some new caveats. Things that Bitcoiners could pay attention 641 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:03,540 to bonus depreciation. If mining is on your radar, right? Being able to depreciate those 642 00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:11,580 mining machines could look at like, and this is just a side note that the public miners aren't 643 00:54:11,580 --> 00:54:16,200 able to pass through losses or that bonus depreciation, but the privates sometimes can. 644 00:54:16,940 --> 00:54:22,780 And so that could be a benefit. Bonus depreciation comes back. I'd be looking at if you're exposed to 645 00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:27,120 the mining space, like, well, now do we buy rigs because we can write it all off. 646 00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:34,660 Social security, if that's a part of your now or your future, there might be no tax on that. 647 00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:39,800 No tax on tips. If you're in the service industry, there could be others. 648 00:54:41,340 --> 00:54:47,460 They do end up getting rid of the IRS. There's some strategies for that too. Maybe it's selling 649 00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:52,920 all your Bitcoin and buying it right back to lock in a new basis. Talk to some clients that think 650 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:58,640 the IRS will go away. There's a potential strategy of sell your $100 Bitcoin and buy the $110,000 651 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,880 Bitcoin. If there's no IRS, reset your basis and floor, you could do Roth conversions. 652 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,860 There's so many what ifs that I'm just telling many, many clients, let's pause, 653 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,740 let's see what the rules are. And then I'll help you play the game after that. 654 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,700 Do you think no capital gains on Bitcoin is on? 655 00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:26,240 That'd be nice. Yeah. On whose table? I don't know. I mean, America needs money. Even if they 656 00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:31,080 got rid of the IRS, like where's the money going to come from? There's probably a large, they did 657 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,260 that. That's a tariff regime, right? They're going to have to get the money from somewhere else. 658 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,740 Cap gains would be internal. They're losing a big chunk of revenue for not taxing that. 659 00:55:41,740 --> 00:55:44,800 Is it only to Bitcoin? Would it be to stocks and real estate as well? 660 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:52,000 I think it's pretty far-fetched. I would give it a 5%, 10% chance. 661 00:55:53,340 --> 00:55:57,880 Nothing's zero these days. Lots of craziness, but not a base case. 662 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:04,780 If there's no cap gains, I'm personally probably waiting until December 31st of the year 663 00:56:04,780 --> 00:56:10,140 so they don't change their mind and say, and then I'll sell the Bitcoin and buy it right back to 664 00:56:10,140 --> 00:56:20,460 lock in a higher basis yeah wild times jesse wild times wild times yes thank you for coming on 665 00:56:20,460 --> 00:56:28,680 particularly helping people gain perspective on how to approach this things are going to get weird 666 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:35,260 both in the bitcoin world and the fiat world trying to keep your head on straight stay humble 667 00:56:35,260 --> 00:56:43,620 don't become beholden to the whims of FOMO and animal spirits and have a plan and stick to it 668 00:56:43,620 --> 00:56:49,020 yeah i think uh i've heard you say is this peak clown world like is it peak 669 00:56:49,020 --> 00:56:56,140 maybe the peak is uh correlated with m2 money supply like it's more the more they print the 670 00:56:56,140 --> 00:57:01,900 more the peaks just keep coming it's going up going up forever laura hyper bullish on peak 671 00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:08,640 clown world clown world is going up forever jesse yeah yeah where can people are ticker c 672 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:14,700 clwn can i invest in peak clown world not yet just wait that'll come the treasury company you're 673 00:57:14,700 --> 00:57:20,020 going to spack it out that'll come that'll come um where can people find out more about gannett 674 00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:27,460 gannett is at gannettrust.com they are operationalizing standing it up as we speak 675 00:57:27,460 --> 00:57:39,300 So Chartered, Wyoming Trust Company, getting installed and rolling out to Unchained Clients first, probably in the second half of the year that'll be made more broadly available to others. 676 00:57:39,500 --> 00:57:40,960 So GannettTrust.com. 677 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:46,260 If you're interested in learning what that rollout looks like, you can request an introduction there. 678 00:57:46,260 --> 00:57:52,940 sound advisory which i help run is going to be tucking up and under gannett trust over the next 679 00:57:52,940 --> 00:58:00,500 few months and will be the the wealth advisory arm of the trust company and then that can currently 680 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:06,500 be found at the sound advisory.com but it'll tuck under gannett eventually and as always unchained 681 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:14,580 the parent company and umbrella the leader of the umbrella family is unchained.com 682 00:58:14,580 --> 00:58:17,900 for their products and services. 683 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:18,520 Check it out. 684 00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:20,620 Think about using unchained.com slash TFTC 685 00:58:20,620 --> 00:58:22,880 if you want to engage in anything they're doing there. 686 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:23,760 Yeah, check it out. 687 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:26,160 Jesse, thank you. 688 00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:27,460 You're welcome. 689 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,440 I know, and congrats on getting Gannett out there 690 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,000 because I know it's been a long haul. 691 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,740 It's very important, very important to do it correctly. 692 00:58:36,260 --> 00:58:39,180 And for anybody out there, high net worth individual, 693 00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:42,560 somebody managing a corporate balance sheet 694 00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,380 or a pension fund, whatever it may be looking for. 695 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,100 Say for fiduciaries, families, founders. 696 00:58:49,780 --> 00:58:55,020 So if you're in that world, we'd love to start a conversation with you. 697 00:58:55,780 --> 00:58:59,960 And yeah, as the world gets crazier and develops and there's more products, 698 00:59:00,260 --> 00:59:04,780 we are doing our part to try and build and solve what we think is needed in the space. 699 00:59:04,780 --> 00:59:11,100 And again, it was a lot of proof of work and proud of the team that launched it. 700 00:59:11,100 --> 00:59:14,740 and we'll see what we can do with that Swiss army knife here in the coming years. 701 00:59:15,700 --> 00:59:18,040 All right. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing it flourish. 702 00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:20,500 All right. Well, thank you, sir. Thanks for the time. 703 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,100 Thank you. Peace and love, freaks.