1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,000 [Music] 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:18,760 Hey everybody, welcome back to the Phantom Power Business Hour. Today is Monday the 19th. 3 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,280 We're a little late getting this one out. I would have loved to have had it out in the morning, 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,960 but I was flying back from Phoenix and back in Nashville. It's Monday afternoon. I'll have 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:38,480 this one up this afternoon. I was out at Culture Shock in Phoenix over the weekend down at Sam 6 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:44,960 Means Place and I just cannot say enough wonderful things about the experience that I had this weekend. 7 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:53,760 I want to thank Quiet Warrior, Santos, Eric, Heather Larson, Heidi, 8 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:01,840 Arcanox, Santos, just everybody that I met down there. It was such an amazing event talking 9 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:09,120 about Noster, talking about Bitcoin, talking about music, getting a chance to see Sarah Jade perform, 10 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:17,680 meeting her, meeting her husband. It was a small crew, but man, it was mighty and it is such a 11 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:25,440 great indication of where this entire movement is going. I learned a lot, made some new friends, 12 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:31,680 stuffed my face with some amazing Mexican food, especially from Heidi. Thank you very much, 13 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:38,560 as well as in an out burger. Rather content being back here in Nashville now, 14 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:45,280 and ready to get back to work. What you're about to hear is a conversation that I had yesterday 15 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:52,880 morning, Sunday morning with Sam Means from Wave Lake and Open Mike from First Avenue. As you 16 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:58,800 guys know, they are obviously at the forefront. They are way the hell in front of me with respect to 17 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:07,120 what's going on with music and value for value. Sam has just such a great history in the industry, 18 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,320 but more importantly, he's got a hell of a big heart and his head and his heart are absolutely in 19 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,440 the right place with respect to where Wave Lake is going. Open Mike, I can't say enough about Open Mike, 20 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:24,000 either. Everything that he did and set up those shows in Minneapolis in December to his work with 21 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:32,560 Tunster, to his work with Noster and just being a Bitcoin evangelist and just being underneath the 22 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,120 radar. As far as independent musicians go, "My God, you can't have a better friend than this dude." 23 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:44,080 The guy works for independent venues. You're going to hear this conversation between the three of us 24 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,880 and you're going to hear planes flying overhead on approach into the Phoenix Airport. 25 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:58,880 We rushed in and rushed out, but I want to thank Sam for hosting us and letting us come in 26 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,800 and bum rush his office and make a quick recording before we all had to head out. 27 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:10,640 So this is a fun conversation with me, Mike, and Sam, and I really hope you guys enjoy it. 28 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,240 I love these guys, dearly. I love where this movement is going and I'm so thankful for it. 29 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:21,040 So here is myself, Sam from Wave Lake and Open Mike talking about not only the event this 30 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:26,960 past weekend, but value for value and the music industry. Here we go. 31 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,640 All right. Welcome to Phantom Power Business Hour. It is Sunday the 18th. 32 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:39,200 of February and we are in Phoenix and I am really lucky to be joined by Sam Means 33 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,680 from Wave Lake and Open Mike from First Avenue. We had a great day yesterday here at Noster. 34 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:51,440 Noster, what did they call it? What'd you get? Culture shot. Culture shot. Yeah, I'm getting old. 35 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,480 I forget things that were I was staring at. It was a little bit of an obscure title, but that was the 36 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:05,920 point. It was a really marvelous event. It was so fun. It went off without a hitch. Everyone did great. 37 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:11,120 Yeah. Sarah Jade was there. She played some music and it was incredible. Yeah, nice little set. 38 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:17,680 You and I, Sam had a nice conversation and I was fortunate enough to interview Sarah for a 39 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,720 couple of minutes. Mike, I loved hearing what you were talking about yesterday with Sam with 40 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,560 respect to the industry and you know, I, we've got a little bit of time. I know because Mike, you 41 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:34,480 got to get on a flight here and this podcast is going to go up tomorrow Monday, but I wanted to 42 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,160 jump in just real quick and kind of continue the conversation that you guys were having with respect to 43 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:45,680 the state of the entertainment industry today with respect to labels and ticket agencies and 44 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:55,520 things of that nature. How far off? How many years behind? Do you guys think companies like 45 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:03,680 LiveNation and UMG and whatnot? How many years away from adaptation of Bitcoin and 46 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,440 Noster and RSS? How many years? How many years away are they? Do you think? 47 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:13,280 I'm, well, I'm not sure if these types of companies will ever get there. 48 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:20,640 Agreed. I just look at the past. I mean, we were talking about a little bit like, you know, I'm old 49 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,840 enough now to have seen some cycles and how the tech industries have worked and boom, subworked and 50 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:33,120 tech giants have been tech giants and then it's sold for nothing like AOL or, you know, just, I mean, 51 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,920 all these different things, you think of how powerful AOL was for such a long period of time. 52 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,360 And if we were having this conversation, be like, when is AOL going to have going to introduce 53 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:47,120 Bitcoin and Noster and then, you know, fast forward and AOL pretty much just exists in my 54 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,320 dad's email address or something at this point now and I'll think there's much to it. So, 55 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:56,880 I think what, well, probably what will happen is just companies will start up utilizing this 56 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:03,600 technology. They'll grow, they'll surpass and they'll probably do what typically happens and 57 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,560 kind of gobble up the old stuff or if the old or some of these companies are smart maybe they'll 58 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,360 and I think some will probably buy these companies to kill them, some will buy them to merge with 59 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:19,600 them to take some of their technology. But I don't think anyone will just simply adopt it in this 60 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:26,880 current world because it, by design, it takes away a lot of their ability to manipulate the situation. 61 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:36,000 I agree. I don't have a visibility into the workings of organizations like that or just were a 62 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,520 venue and a promoter but I just don't see any world where the incentives line up. Like why? 63 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:48,480 Why would you want to take on something that improves transparency, visibility, 64 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:56,160 when you have the benefit of your own ecosystem that everybody has to play in? 65 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,560 Yeah, I hadn't thought of it. I hadn't thought of it like that. 66 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:07,920 You think about ticketing, right? There's a whole bunch of things that are interesting as a promoter. 67 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,440 We announce shows, we put them on sale, we actually sell the tickets and we collect the money. 68 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:25,200 As a band, Sam, you know this, one of the holy grails of going on tour is getting to connect with 69 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:31,040 your fans and you don't get any of the ticket contact information for your people who buy tickets to go 70 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,800 to your show and all these cities. You don't get the email lists, you don't get the names, you don't get 71 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:44,560 the addresses. Sometimes you can ask nicely. Yeah, but typically no, but they're pretty protected. 72 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:58,560 And that's just an example of something that why would they change that? 73 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:07,280 Like what's the incentive? And the same thing for you put all the tickets on sale, Sam wants to play a show. 74 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:12,000 He agrees with the venue that it's going to be a $20 ticket. 75 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,600 Doesn't matter if that ticket gets scalped three times up to $80. 76 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:25,520 But if you had some of this technology, like if you could picture a ticketing system on Bitcoin 77 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:31,440 where it's a public blockchain, you would actually be able to watch that ticket go from 78 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:40,400 ticket master to customer and then you would know if that customer was a reseller. Yeah, exactly. 79 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,120 And I got pretty fascinated with this. And unfortunately it was all 80 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:51,760 altcoin chains that we're talking about it a few years ago in the last ball market. But 81 00:08:51,760 --> 00:09:00,880 there were plenty of people talking about ways to make royalty overrides, you know, and you know, 82 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,760 transfer when you transfer that ticket to another buyer, it would go back to the creator. 83 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,080 But it, you know, ultimately I just haven't seen a good solution and I just I can't see a world where 84 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,680 some of these centralized big players would ever want that. Like why would they? 85 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:24,320 Why would they want to show how many times the ticket was transferred? They'd benefit from that 86 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,760 merciness. Yeah, the point you made yesterday that I wasn't aware of, which is public knowledge, 87 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,400 because you can find it on the internet, but how these major ticketing companies 88 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,920 own the secondary market as well. And that they are their own scalpers. 89 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:45,840 They can be. They can be. Yeah, they can be stopping them other than the law, which is 90 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,240 and typically correct. Correct. When you have enough money to pay the fines, 91 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,240 and the fines are less than the money you're making on the scalping than he cares. 92 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,720 You just work it in with the business model. Yeah, it's just one of your line items of loss. 93 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:04,240 Same as the banks, right? We know that from Bitcoin. Well, and it's just, and it's stunning because I 94 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:11,680 don't think people really know, you know, the younger artists, they have no clue how just deep the 95 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:18,800 for lack of a better word corruption is. Yeah. And the layers of protection. I mean, I think so many 96 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,240 young artists, they get into this because they love the art, they love the expression, they love 97 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,640 the feeling of playing in a band for the first time, but they don't, they don't realize that, you know, 98 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:33,280 if you don't, you know, I think hustle and business sense in many respects are more important than 99 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:39,440 your ability to craft a song. And I hate to say that, but, you know, you see the bands with great hustle 100 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,760 and great work ethic rise to the top where the brilliant ones, you know, we all have friends who 101 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,040 were freaking brilliant and you're like, why in the hell are you not out on tour? And, you know, they 102 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,480 don't have, they don't have, drive, they don't have, you know, I've seen that so many times in my life. 103 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,520 Yeah. Yeah. The, the need to hustle has always been there, but it's just the amount, the, 104 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,560 the amount of obligations that you have and the things that you have to keep track of, the stress 105 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:08,320 of just maintaining all these channels is, is what's changed a lot. There's just, there's too many 106 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:14,000 options, you know, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to know where to start. It's like looking at a pile of, 107 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,840 you know, things you have to, I always use this analogy of like when you're, when you're moving, 108 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,400 you move all the big stuff first in the furniture and it's all out, but, and that takes 109 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,480 not that long, but then you just get like the knick knacks and stuff and that takes forever and 110 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,760 you hate it and you're just looking at it and you're like, oh my god, I get all this. Yeah, but, 111 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:35,280 you know, the reality of it is you just have to, you just have to do something, you start somewhere 112 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,440 and that's what I always tell people with like trying to navigate in this world right now because 113 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:45,440 it is so difficult. It's like just do something as long as you're making music that you're passionate 114 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:51,600 about, you will achieve some level of success. It may not be commercial success, but if you're able 115 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,320 to do it, you'll be fulfilled by, you know, if you're able to stick with your ethics and stick with 116 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,600 the way that you want to do it, then, in the, at the absolute least, you'll be happy with that you 117 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:09,040 were able to make music and you didn't have to sacrifice some part of you for this, this, 118 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,840 this hustle system that we all have to be a part of. I mean, I want, on that last note too, I want to say, 119 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:21,680 I think, or what I hope is more likely is that artists, this, this, this type of artists will 120 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:27,920 enable artists to be able to do these things on their own or with less friction than they have now, 121 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:34,160 you know, just like they can record in their basement or they can distribute globally the push 122 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:41,440 of a button in, you know, 19 bucks on tune course, something or now on wave lake or value for value 123 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:47,600 system, you can just get this stuff distributed everywhere so much easier than you could, you know, 124 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:53,360 10 or 20 years ago, yeah, and I think things like that, that type of stuff, I think, will continue to evolve 125 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:59,120 and that will evolve into ticketing and, and it'll be, it'll be great for venues, it'll be great for 126 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,600 promoters, it'll be great for these things too because it'll establish more, I think it'll just 127 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,920 change the rules a little bit, it's going to take some getting used to, but I think it will establish 128 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,280 a better connection between those two parties and I mean, I even know the hustle of being a 129 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,640 promoter, I was one myself for years here in Phoenix and it's a tough, I mean like you said last 130 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,520 yesterday, we're a busy bar and that's, that could not be more true. That is, that is the thing, 131 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,320 everyone thinks promoters are, and some are, you know, some like, live nation, some promoters are 132 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:34,000 making money hand over fist, but the independent promoter, it's a struggle, you have a good sold out 133 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:40,960 show here and then, you know, your thrill kill cult show in New Mexico tanks and he was $15,000 or 134 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:46,240 something and that balance is crazy and it's hard to keep up with and so it's just as much of a 135 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:52,320 hustle for these guys that it is for the artists in a lot of sense, so yeah, I just hope to see things 136 00:13:52,320 --> 00:14:00,560 that will make those connections stronger and less, I don't know, less mysterious, you know, because 137 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,640 it's hard to know when you, when you put in an offer, you're sort of taking a gamble, 138 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,600 the concert promotion is at its core gambling and you're just putting faith in this artist, this artist 139 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:16,400 is going to do what, you need them to do to, to fill the, to fill the room and sometimes it works and 140 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:22,720 sometimes it doesn't and a lot of times the venues and the promoters don't get the recognition on the 141 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,160 loss, you know, they just kind of take the shit for the wins sometimes in the, in that world, so I 142 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,280 don't know, I hope that's that, I hope that bond just gets stronger because live music isn't going 143 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:38,800 anywhere and it needs, it needs a little bit of a, a, a, overhaul as well. Yeah. I think it's important to 144 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,960 for these young artists that are getting into this and, and we always, you know, we, I, I, we 145 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:50,480 strategize about how to get more people into this space. It's so important, so many, so many artists 146 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:56,800 are just fixated on the goal of, I just want to, you know, I want to play the major arenas, I want to 147 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:02,320 play stadiums, I want to, and they don't pay attention to the journey. Yeah. And they don't pay 148 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:09,120 attention to the signs along the journey, you know, because if, if, if they're not paying attention to 149 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:15,600 the journey, they're going to miss out on opportunities like value for value, Bitcoin, wave, like, 150 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,320 yeah, like, you know, live streaming, or RSS and non-star, things like that. Well, that's the thing. I 151 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,320 mean, when I was, when I was coming up, like you, there were two paths you could take if you were, 152 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,440 you know, on, had any kind of momentum, like you could sign to a label, an indie label or a major 153 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,880 label or something. And there was a big thing with selling out, that was the thing in like the 154 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,760 punk scene, like, oh, that band sold out, they sold, they signed a deal with MCA or something, and now 155 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:48,640 everyone's talking trash. Now they're on the radio and they suck down. But it was true, like, most of 156 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:54,640 those bands that did take that shortcut ended up kind of falling, falling off a bit, like maybe some 157 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,400 are coming back now through this nostalgia stuff, like we were talking about festivals. Yeah. 158 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,960 Or coming back and everyone's just like attention spans for festivals or getting ridiculous. There's 159 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:10,240 like 700 band bills. But most of those bands would kind of drop off at the bands that would just 160 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,520 get on the road and stay on the road and build that core all around the country and then maybe got 161 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:21,600 lucky enough to travel over the UK or something or further. Those are the ones that really had the 162 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:27,680 staying power, like bands like Jimmy E. World, Phoenix here. They're just like the perfect example 163 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,760 of the road dog like touring guys who have been able to sustain a career off of touring. And they 164 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:40,640 just caught that at the right time. Whereas now you can't do that. It's almost impossible to get on 165 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:46,080 the road and do that because you're not making enough money anywhere else. You can't sell enough CDs 166 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:54,080 on the road to get gas from one town to the next. So I think that will even be fixed and it won't be 167 00:16:54,080 --> 00:17:00,960 some technology necessarily fixing that. It's just if artists are able to make money again through 168 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:07,520 their music to support that idea, then they'll be able to get back on that on the road. And if the 169 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,840 exchanges that are happening on the road are better, maybe there's live streaming in maybe there's 170 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,600 sat flow happening there too. And now they have this whole other monetization stream that's coming 171 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,480 in. That's allowing them to build and develop like they truly need to and can have that real 172 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,880 because there's nothing like an online fan connection is great but there's nothing like that person 173 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,480 a person connection. When you're on stage and you're watching your favorite band or you know what I mean 174 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,640 or for both side it is it is an incredible feeling if you're in the crowd it's an incredible feeling 175 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,440 if you're on the stage and I don't think anything can replicate that. Yeah I think it's going to be 176 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:50,240 interesting to see like we've seen some really great success with live stream sat's coming in for 177 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:56,240 shows like yesterday Sarah pulled in 1.2, 1.3. I mean that's a nice little take you know for an hour set 178 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,920 and good for them for doing it you know. Yeah we got to update this number see there's a little 179 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:06,400 extra that came in after the fact. Oh really? Yeah. But it's going to be interesting because I completely 180 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:12,960 agree with you saying there's nothing like a live show. Yeah. And I think people might 181 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:20,240 kind of step away from doing from you know V for V like tipping on every live show. 182 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:27,680 So somehow the interaction like if there's some customized content from these artists coming 183 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,200 over into you know V and Oster something like that like that might be another revenue stream something 184 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:39,120 that's different than than just hey here's them playing a gig. Yeah you know it's going to be I don't 185 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,600 know if you have any thoughts on that Mike I think but I think something could pop up. I just 186 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,360 think you know kind of like what you and I were talking privately when the pandemic hit in the live 187 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:56,400 streams went bachit crazy and then then kind of died off. Yeah I think we had so much momentum with 188 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:03,360 you know the empathy like everybody everybody wants their local coffee shop and went out of their 189 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,720 way to spend more money on things that they really appreciated during the pandemic and that was my 190 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:15,440 interpretation of the live stream phenomenon. Yeah. Sam nailed it like there's nothing that's 191 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,680 going to replace the in-person experience and the energy of the room and the curation of a live 192 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:29,200 concert but you know if you if you can't catch your favorite band and you want to go out of your 193 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,280 way to support them you know even a live stream if you put it out there for free value for value 194 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:45,440 you know generating 20 bucks 50 bucks 100 bucks like it does add up like the yeah I always tell people 195 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:53,600 if you really love this band and you want to support them hit up the merch table like that that 196 00:19:53,600 --> 00:20:00,640 often is like the thing that tips the scale for making it worthwhile to go on tour and play these 197 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:08,480 100 200 persons show tours because you're not making it at the door if you have a band of any 198 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:16,320 you know multiple people if you have four people in the band and the tour manager like just 199 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:23,920 do the math on a hotel and meals and yeah dude I when I my band it was two of us and then we were 200 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:30,960 paying everyone else on salary so it's like a six piece band that needed needed to get paid weekly 201 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,440 yeah sound guy as you know you're you're going in a van as long as you can but then 202 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,840 a van's only so big yeah yeah that weekly nut gets a little crazy after a while 203 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:46,320 merch is it merch is a huge a huge part of it. Mm-hmm. What do you guys think 204 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:59,840 you know aside from telling bands about this opportunity with V for V in Wavelaick and whatnot 205 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:08,000 and you know and telling and then telling people who hold Bitcoin to get a you know to open up 206 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,960 fountain to open up Wavelaick and transfer some stats over and start you know V for V in 207 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,880 into these bands what else can we do to bring more people into this space. Aside from 208 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:25,440 just telling indie bands and telling Bitcoin holders about V for V like what else can we do. 209 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:31,760 I mean my take on it is just it's really no different than any business I've ever been a part of 210 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,560 or any or even the bands or what we were just talking about like you have to develop a strong 211 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:44,080 foundation whether you're an artist on the road looking to have a sustainable career or you have a 212 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,640 business in music or you have a business anywhere you know you have to it's I don't think it's any 213 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,840 different taking shortcuts I don't think is an option here and I think everything is primed 214 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,440 right now the writing is on the wall we know that we've said this a thousand times in the last few 215 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:05,920 days you know everything is is bleak not only in the music industry but just in the world the world's 216 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:14,720 crazy and in everyone sort of expecting where everyone I feel like is anticipating something is 217 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:21,920 going to have to shift because it's just everything starting to boil over. Yeah for this stuff specifically 218 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,960 just because that's what we're talking about I think it's just as important you know just to continue 219 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:33,520 to try to get people to build stuff that's that's my main focus it's why we're doing things the way 220 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,280 we're doing them at way of like because it's all open you know so we're trying to create a place 221 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,920 where people can can come but even more so like a lot of people Michael says it's all the time 222 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:50,240 people think of us as like a a business for the consumer like a retail business but we're not we're 223 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,840 really a business for the business we want other people to be building stuff on top of this we want 224 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:03,280 people to be building charts building various apps building even replicating the onboarding tools 225 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,440 that we have all this stuff is open source and anybody can do it and I think that's the most 226 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:13,280 important thing and some people get hung up on it because there's this technology is so new and 227 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,160 it's happening so fast you don't want to do it too fast you want to make sure that you're carefully 228 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,120 crafting this or else we're gonna miss our opportunity for this this perfect moment in time where 229 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,760 everything all the stars are lining and everything is pointing towards you have to change something 230 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:34,640 and we have to do it right or else some you know that a theorem conference you went to some 231 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:42,080 shit point thing is gonna come in and just it's I mean it's it's inevitable but the timing is I 232 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,200 think the timing is right so like we're going into a good cycle and if we can do things right 233 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,680 if we can act accordingly and get things organized in a way and get this community strong enough 234 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:58,160 and supporting each other all across all around all across the board yeah I think we'll have a 235 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:05,200 really good chance at breaking through that shit coin wall that we saw in 2017 when I were two in 236 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:12,480 on the last cycle 2020 and 21 where all the bands that I work with were talking to me about NFTs and I 237 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:20,480 was just realizing I was just having these you know epiphany of like oh man you're talking about this 238 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,720 you think this is gonna happen this is actually the answer right here it's just I can't tell you 239 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,800 about it yet because there's nothing there yet it's just an idea and here we are you know three years 240 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:37,680 later in moving into this next cycle and the stuff is actually here now so we do have that opportunity 241 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:43,520 it might take another cycle it might take another few years and I think the timing will if if we don't 242 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,480 take a shortcut I think the timing will prove itself right and this this will just happen organically 243 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,040 because I think that's the only way it's it's going to happen and be successful if it's purely 244 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,760 an organic path yeah I have a lot of respect listening to you and Michael it's been great to 245 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,240 see you get meet Michael for the first time and see you again since first since July since we saw 246 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:10,720 each other but the methodology and the patience that you guys are going about in building wave lake 247 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:16,080 and recognizing that we really you guys don't really only have one chance to get this right yeah 248 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:25,600 and and just hanging out with you and being in your studio and everything I get it I absolutely 249 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,280 get it but thanks yeah yeah we're trying man it's it's and the reason we have to be so patient is 250 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:38,320 because it's not like there's I just don't know if there's anybody who is trying to do this right now 251 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:46,480 in an organized way for mainstream adoption yeah and I'm afraid that if we if it's not us because 252 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:52,880 I mean I'm incredibly biased to say this but we we're trustworthy people you know like we're actually 253 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,960 we are actually doing this for the right reasons whatever I mean that some people may not 254 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,280 think that and that's totally fine but I absolutely do believe you guys are doing this for the right 255 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:07,600 we truly are we're we are genuine people and I can say that you know I I have no no trouble saying 256 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,480 that I have a lot of trouble giving myself compliments for anything else but if there's one thing 257 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:19,840 I can say about myself is I am I am genuine and I I do want to see this happen and I am afraid that 258 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:26,560 if if we don't if we can't organize enough people who truly believe that this can happen as well 259 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:33,600 then someone who isn't genuine is likely to come in and just delay this like I was just saying 260 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:40,000 and that's that's that's my fear that's my only fear you know but is because that can also be 261 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:46,000 patients can also be a downfall you know if we we might be too patient we might miss an opportunity 262 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,280 and that might that might cause us to have to go into the next thing but what we're not going to do 263 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:55,360 is stop you know so ultimately that I think it's gonna succeed but well that's the same thing in 264 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:00,800 many respects though I was saying earlier about paying attention to the journey you know don't you 265 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:07,040 know we can't we cannot afford to just be focused on the goal right yeah you know yeah we're gonna miss 266 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:15,360 an opportunity to you know like my you know like when you reached out and offered to do that you know 267 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:23,680 put together that show for angely and just laugh like well that piggybacking on what Sam was saying about 268 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:35,040 the long game and participating and doing things deliberately mindfully intentionally I couldn't 269 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:40,720 agree more like I got I got approached so many times I mean actually how it all happened is I 270 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:51,280 have been very private about my you know Bitcoin and you know all of this I just don't I don't 271 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:59,440 cross pollinate much professionally previously like in previous cycles and what actually happened 272 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,440 is during the pandemic we got approached by an s-coiner and they were going to go out 273 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:15,600 it was what perfectly well intended but it was it was a fundraiser NFT so they were issuing 274 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,880 NFTs to all of the Niva members Niva being the National Independent Venue Association 275 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:28,640 and we ended up selling the first avenue NFT for 20 grand just as you know total philanthropy right 276 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:35,920 and it wasn't it wasn't like a speculative NFT it was it was known that it was a fundraiser 277 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:43,840 but actually a two-villoo the artist from Sweden bought it really yeah pretty cool she's played a bunch of 278 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:52,960 our most of our rooms actually but yeah this this company reached out and that's that's when I outed 279 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:58,160 myself like you know they approached they approached our owner and I was like hold on time out like 280 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,360 I need to tell you that I know what's going on here like let me do some diligence on this yeah and 281 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:12,080 but we had point being as we had we'd been approached by a lot of people who wanted to you know monetize 282 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:19,920 and that's just such a that you know that cycle and the NFTs it's just so transactional it's just 283 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:28,960 gross it's not it's not like a a long value add to the industry to just sell digital widgets and flip 284 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:37,600 you know speculative yeah digital assets but um you know the the long game you know when I 285 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:45,680 when I launched Toonser you know Sam nailed it it's like this is all open source like I don't know 286 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:53,280 what the hell I'm doing like I just who does I just took you know I I took a flyer on I mean I know 287 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:59,120 what we have in real life we have amazing venues and great relationships and a lot of bands we have a 288 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:08,240 lot of touch points with 1200 shows which means 2500 bands yeah that I get to interact with a year yeah 289 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:19,040 and you know I just I just knew that if we could somehow communicate what's going on at the 290 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,880 ground level to some of these people maybe somebody like Ainsley or Just Loud or Sarah Jade would take 291 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:31,120 you know take notice of it yeah well that shows that shows your patience and I had very similar experiences 292 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,080 with because I as you guys know we're sitting in this merch warehouse right now and I had I can't 293 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:42,160 even tell you how many managers approached me knowing that I was into something in this you know 294 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,040 they've caught on to something like I've been also a little vague but enough that people have 295 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:52,400 seen some things out there and that's what's cool about it because we're sort of I mean this is 296 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,520 little over dramatic but we're kind of like this little silent army waiting to help you know we're 297 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,880 just here like a rescue crew actually maybe a better way to put it and so when these things come up 298 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,480 you can actually you're just sort of there to protect them from making a mistake that's how 299 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,000 that's how I felt about it I was like I'm not going to help you with this you know and in like two or 300 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,400 three years you're going to see why and that's you're actually going to I know you're probably going 301 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,880 to be pissed and you're probably going to go do it anyway with someone else's help but when you get 302 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,760 screwed over or the bankets screwed over or the fans get screwed over you're going to remember this 303 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,320 conversation and you're going to come back to me and I'm going to actually give you the answer 304 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,920 because by the time you figure that out there will be something much better for you to do there's 305 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,320 just it's not there right now it's not worth it for me to explain it to you right now but that's 306 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:48,240 what we need to be doing we need to just be you know just preparing for when these when these artists 307 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:54,640 need help and we're all going to be I mean I think all three of us you know Jimmy and I have talked 308 00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,800 about it a lot it's like you're very actively and very successfully finding your place in the space 309 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,760 and incredibly short period of time trying to who the hell knows where these podcasts will take me 310 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,640 right but that but I I always tell you they will take you somewhere and I'm a firm believer of 311 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:16,880 that that's how my entire life has worked I just like if you just just do the thing that you are 312 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:24,400 passionate about you will find your place eventually and and with this in particular I think we're 313 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,200 all going to be very helpful to a lot of people yeah because we're taking the time we have the patients 314 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,960 to learn what we need to learn we're making mistakes that will need to be made so that we can 315 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:43,600 help people avoid them cut corners get there faster and get there and it because it is so delicate when 316 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,240 you're dealing with when you're dealing with a band you're not just dealing with the band you're 317 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,560 dealing with their entire audience you're dealing with an entire career you're in dear you're 318 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:59,440 dealing with their emotion like they're their soul who they are you know because music is such a 319 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:06,080 powerful thing it's like you have to think of it like I cannot this person is like pouring their heart 320 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:12,560 out as a musician am I gonna try to get them to sell an NFT you know like and rip off all their 321 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,360 fans it's gonna be crazy and that could be something that could be so disruptive in the path of an 322 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,520 artist career would never want to participate that so if we could in that so if we could 323 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:27,360 do exactly the opposite and use this technology to help them engage better and 324 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,560 I hate talking about money but it is such an important part of an artist career because they have 325 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,760 none you know starving artists need money just the way it is so if we can help with all that stuff 326 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:47,200 in hopefully the near future I think I don't know I'm excited about it it's one thing I'm so 327 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,960 it's why I'm here it's why even after I have this you know I've had this business that 328 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,840 the worst this room we're sitting in for 16 years I'm ready to just kind of like figure out how 329 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:03,200 to make music again and just have fun but then I find out about this stuff and I have to just jump 330 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,720 right back in and use all of my experience in that world to try to help Michael and get this thing 331 00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:15,440 where it needs to be and it's only the only reason I'm doing it is because I feel I'm equipped to 332 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,440 help in some capacity and I think the same goes for you guys I think that's why we're sitting today 333 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:28,400 yeah coming back to your original question of you know what what can people do and what is the 334 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:39,200 you know what is the path and talking about being very slow and in a long game and I think 335 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:46,400 one of the you know one of the observations that I had you know toonster nobody knew about it 336 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,280 until December it was just in my head it's been in my head for years I just don't know how to code 337 00:34:51,280 --> 00:35:03,280 and I'm not a dev but yesterday at culture shock it was kind of funny for me to to be treated like a 338 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:10,560 builder you know like yeah and like some people from the Nostra community came up to me he's like I 339 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,560 just want to help you know help the toonster team as much as I can and I was kind of giggling to 340 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:23,200 myself as like the toonster team is here there's no team and and so I just want to you know I want to 341 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:31,680 incur a you know what sam said is right like the it's all open source yeah and for a really long time 342 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:38,160 I sat on the sidelines and and watched things happen and thought like man we are the leader in independent 343 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:44,880 music and this is independent money and independent everything it just lines up so perfect but I 344 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:51,600 just don't know what to do I'm not I don't have I don't have money to hire a developer and do all this stuff and 345 00:35:51,600 --> 00:36:03,840 you with an open source community people want to help yeah and I there's really no magic to what I did 346 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:10,960 I just showed up and started asking a bunch of questions and told my story and said what I could contribute 347 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:22,560 and then Kieran you know helped me fork zap.stream carnage and built my website is that work carnage is 348 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:31,760 yeah I've doxed it's so funny like I'm still put like I seriously had to put together a list at home 349 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:38,080 of like all right who's this guy and who is yeah and my like like characters in this shell yeah my my 350 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:44,320 fake the like the fake name that I use as an example is like all right who is Sir underpants of Florida 351 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,600 yeah you know because there's a you know Sir Libre and Sir Spencer and all these folks and I've 352 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,880 like I literally had to had to start out a word document so I can remember who they are sorry 353 00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:01,680 keep going yeah but everybody just you know I feel like I was just a coordinator I didn't actually 354 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:07,360 do the work yeah you don't have to you don't have to do the work to be a builder at all you I mean it's 355 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:13,520 I mean yeah you did Jim did he say you used to be a general contractor yeah yeah you probably weren't 356 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,040 maybe you weren't hammering the the roof on maybe you were sometimes but right no no you know there's a lot 357 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:27,200 of there's a lot of people that help in a project and you need you need all these assets in building a 358 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:33,920 project it's not just like doing the the coding it's it's the vision it's the having the patience 359 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:40,800 it's having the idea it's simply just being available is it's what I've learned I've been interested 360 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,960 in this for 10 years now and I was always just like I'm here but I don't I don't know I don't know 361 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,560 what to do you know and then eventually then someday something clicks and you figure out oh here's my 362 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,720 like my door just opens and now I can walk through it now I have more clarity but it just goes back 363 00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,080 to that I guess the theme of the show is patience because it just goes back to that you have to have 364 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:08,720 patience yeah like brute force your way into this Bitcoin space you have to wait until your number 365 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:14,480 comes up and you're like okay cool I'm good now yeah there's no shortcut for anyone and that's 366 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:21,200 why we're building value it's NFTs and all that garbage seem like a shortcut you just get rich quick 367 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:30,960 you know there's you can't fake it you got to just take the long game and 368 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:40,800 and build I have studied NFTs a bit and I had a and I had a great artist on the business hour like three 369 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:48,800 or four weeks ago via let us errone she's from Italy she lived in Nashville she is full-time 370 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:55,360 musician full-time NFT like she is making it work yeah she's got a good good support base around 371 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:01,680 her and and I love her voice I love her writing she's kind of like um 372 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:11,680 Diana Crawl and Katie Malua out of the UK and it's a it's a it's a fascinating thing and she's 373 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:18,800 starting to move over towards Bitcoin and Ordinals and I'm very curious as to see where she's going to go 374 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:24,880 yeah you know I mean she's she's had like a million dollars a million dollar sales in the 375 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,800 secondary market with her in a tease and I'm just stunned you know and not not on a bad way I'm just 376 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:36,640 I'm thrilled for her but I still don't as much as I understand NFTs I also don't understand NFTs 377 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:46,400 you know but I do but I do think at my core only being eight months into this Bitcoin in value for value 378 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:54,160 and just that direct exchange is so much more pure and so much simpler yeah 379 00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:02,240 I think I think yeah I have a somewhat complicated take on ordinals and all that stuff I mean 380 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:09,680 but at at the very the most simple way you can't tell anybody what to do with with Bitcoin that's 381 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:18,160 the whole point you may not agree with ordinals but if they're available to do through the the 382 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:27,200 consensus of the network has enabled that to happen that's just a that's a repercussion of of the way 383 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,000 this works which is how this works and the beautiful thing about it is if enough people don't like 384 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:39,200 that or if it's causing congestion it was one of the early fears of it then just change it you know 385 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,680 you just you get you get a majority vote and you just change it and you change you change the 386 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,880 rules or people fork off and do other things and they they have an ordinals chain or something and then 387 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:55,680 Bitcoin just continues to be Bitcoin but at the end of the day I mean this is you know Bitcoin for 388 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:05,280 everyone Bitcoin scaling globally it's going to need to be able to serve every single person in every 389 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:13,360 single way just like any other transactional currency works you have to have money for good things 390 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,840 and you have to have money for bad things you have to have money for virtuous things and you have to 391 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:24,000 have money for scams you just do you know it's just the way it's just the way the world's going to work 392 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,360 luckily this will prevent a lot of that stuff from happening in a in a way that it happens now because 393 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,320 a lot of it is out in the open and so it will but people will still find ways to manipulate Bitcoin they 394 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,520 and and even if there was like a blockchain ticketing thing someone to figure out you know 395 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,960 yeah some will figure it out and they'll figure out a way to manipulate it and then 396 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,160 someone will figure out how to fix it and then some will figure out how to manipulate that 397 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:56,240 but at the end of the day I mean with that with that stuff I would especially for an artist even 398 00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,040 though I don't agree with it and I would always try to tell people to move away from that stuff and 399 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:08,960 focus on their art if that is her art then who am I to say what to do or not do with it you know 400 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:16,080 and that's how I feel about it and and all these and I'm happy I'm of the opinion that it's much better 401 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,600 I'd much rather have that stuff on Bitcoin actually than anywhere else because at least Bitcoin is the 402 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:30,880 is the is the much better product for people it's decentralized and so they're not going to be able to 403 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,160 be scammed as easily they're not going to be able to just spin these tokens up in the way that they 404 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:44,000 could in these in these centralized you know tokens and coins and things and bring in celebrities to do 405 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:52,400 I mean they'll have ways to do that still I would imagine but just not not as I don't know not as 406 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,080 horribly yeah I'm not I'm not anti NFT I just don't care right like it's right that's fine you don't 407 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:03,760 have to care and I don't either like yeah we don't care but someone if someone does and that's their 408 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,840 art and that's the way they want to that's the way they want to distribute it then yeah I 409 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:13,520 yeah I shouldn't say I don't care I just I think that you know I was I was a huge baseball card 410 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,680 collector when I was a kid yeah and that so I actually you know like during the last bull market I 411 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:26,640 have some NFTs like Nas released an album and it was kind of a at the time it felt like a cool concept 412 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:33,200 it was you get a share of his royalties on that song is like buying a share of stock in his song 413 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:40,080 not it not enforceable legally at all and you know it was on a you know now that you know more about 414 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:46,880 the the chain that it was on you know if that ever became really valuable you don't want to store 415 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,760 your value in something that's not decentralized with proof of proof of work and that that's my problem 416 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:58,400 with NFTs among others but like yeah if one of these things got to be really valuable why do you 417 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,320 want to have it on an insecure platform like yeah exactly that's what I mean it's like wouldn't you 418 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,200 prefer it to be on an ordinal right just because at least you know it's on at least you know where it is 419 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:14,240 you know and it just it just creates you know there are tons of good faith actors in those other 420 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:23,040 ecosystems but when you're in a system that isn't bullet proof on security and has made those 421 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:28,800 trade-offs the Bitcoin refuse to make it just creates another level of due diligence that 422 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,680 isn't necessary like I don't want to figure out if this project's a scam or this one's not and I 423 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:38,800 don't want to trust you if your projects a scam or not and yeah you know it's just it's just not 424 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:46,160 necessary if you use Bitcoin kind of along that line of NFTs and you know we were talking earlier 425 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,600 about labels a little bit and then use a little bit I had coffee a couple weeks ago with a songwriter 426 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,320 friend in Nashville and I was telling him about value for value Bitcoin and 427 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:05,040 and he's one of those folks that immediately goes back to the PRO and to the publishing house 428 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:13,360 right yep and he had said that last summer just about every writer in Nashville that he knew 429 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:27,440 that had a pub deal had to resign because web3 and NFTs were not in the language specifically 430 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:34,400 related to the term known universe yeah and so everybody was having everybody who was signed to a 431 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:42,400 you know significant pub deal had to go back and resign because all of these artists had been 432 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:49,760 making a boatload of money on NFTs outside of the scope of the of the pub deal in the PRO 433 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,520 and they were trying to come around and get their money and I think that and I was and I was 434 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:03,760 fascinated to hear that yeah yeah we filed all of our first avenues iconic logos and everything we 435 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:10,880 we we refiled all of our IP okay for the same you know protections and whatever metaverse or you know 436 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,880 web3 but like yeah all those use cases like if somebody wanted to use our likeness or create a 437 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:24,160 first avenue venue and de-central and or one of those yeah I think about what Arkinox was talking 438 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:29,520 about yesterday in cyberspace like someone could go he was explaining it more at dinner at dinner 439 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:36,560 last night it was blowing my mind but about mining for property in cyberspace it's like go mind 440 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:43,040 property in time square so you could have the advertising revenue in cyberspace in 10 years you know 441 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:50,240 and the way it works is you can you can't just it's not like you just go buy the land you have to just 442 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,000 say you have to sort of mine in the region and you have to mine a lot and you have to use a lot of 443 00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:01,760 power to get isolated into that one spot you know you have to be lucky to get it but yeah it's like 444 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:07,760 maybe I'll go mind over on first app you know see if I can take the IP for it. 445 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:15,920 Take over my office yeah Sam it damn Sam get out of my office well that kind of leads me to like the 446 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:22,800 to the last question that I have for you guys I mean I don't necessarily worry of with with 447 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:28,080 respect to independent artists and professionally aspiring artists artists who are emerging like 448 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,840 like a Joe Martin or a man like Quacks or Saraje or you know the band I wrote or or even 449 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:40,160 Anzaly for that matter I don't necessarily worry about the the the major labels coming into this 450 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:50,800 world you know I don't I don't see necessarily how an ask cap or a BMI or a C-SAC is really going to 451 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:56,960 have any sort of significant play if there is a direct relationship between the listener and the 452 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:03,520 person giving the sats to the artist like how in the hell is is ask cap or BMI ever going to jump 453 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,800 in there but I'm I'm gonna try yeah oh yeah that oh yeah that's like a try and here's the analogy 454 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,720 that I'm trying to work on on my my lovely wife was like yeah you need to work on that because you 455 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:19,360 ain't so I'm it the analogy that I was trying to make is like if if you own a restaurant and 456 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:27,120 you like if I own the restaurant and you guys came in for dinner right and you guys pay the bill 457 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:32,800 but then out of the corner comes this comes this guy who's like hey I'm a farmer I make food and 458 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,880 since you sold food I deserve a cut of that check between the the guys who bought the dinner and the 459 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,040 business owner it's like well the but the money was was directly in between just because you make 460 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:49,840 food just because you have provide a service that adds to the service in general yeah I'm still 461 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,920 working on the analogy like it's a terrible analogy there's I don't know how the hell they're gonna 462 00:48:53,920 --> 00:49:00,640 just slip themselves into it they'll try but I mean I I'm worried I'm not even worried about them 463 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:07,600 to be honest I'm not I think there will be some fights and I think they'll win some and I think 464 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,560 but I think they'll ultimately if this all works and obviously I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't 465 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:20,480 think it's a very strong chance but everybody's gonna want a piece of this yeah you know everybody's 466 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,760 gonna I mean I'm sure you've even seen it just in the eight months it's like you get any 467 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,240 it's just the way these things always work it doesn't even have to be in this space but like 468 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:35,760 someone's see success and all the sudden people just come flocking wanting to attach to it in some 469 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,480 way and wanted to get their hand in it somehow and wanted to get a piece of piece of something you know 470 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:47,200 um I think a lot of people who do that are genuine as well and they're excited because a lot of 471 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:52,320 people have been waiting for something like this to happen and a lot of those a lot a lot of that 472 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,960 stuff will turn into cool projects you know it's like because those people have also just been 473 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,920 waiting at their doors to walk in and so they see something like Ainsley having success or 474 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,400 they watch the stream on tunes or something and they're just like whoa and it clicks for them and then 475 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,280 they they just will approach and be like I'm here what can I do what can I help what can I help with 476 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:17,200 but a lot of a lot of those people will um we'll just be looking to make a buck off of that 477 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,480 opportunity they're just you know there's opportunistic people out there um that are good and bad 478 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,520 and we're gonna be I think that's what we're actually gonna be fighting much more uh 479 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:32,560 like when you saw live streaming in 2020 in 2021 um we're talking about it last night it was like 480 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,440 almost like these all these live streaming companies were already pre-packaged and ready to go 481 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:44,720 it was just like where did these come like 12 fully branded established startups that like 482 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:49,520 seemingly got funded overnight and have like 20 employees it's like what the hell like where did 483 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:54,400 I say how did this happen it was like it literally was like they knew what this was gonna happen 484 00:50:54,400 --> 00:51:00,240 or something is so crazy because I my first thought like the second week of March I was like that's how 485 00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:04,560 I learned how to do OBS that's the only reason I even know how to do it some like we're gonna have 486 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:09,680 to we're gonna have to live stream so like apparently everybody was having that exact same thought because 487 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,920 within a week I was like no we're not because like 10 companies just came out of nowhere um but yeah 488 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,960 I think but that was a that was a moment where being in the music business and working directly 489 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:27,040 with artists I mean there were like wolves at every corner just waiting to take a piece of something 490 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,120 like oh these guys are making money doing live streams on Instagram and they're selling merch and 491 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:36,000 they're they're fundraising and they're doing these big charitable events we need a piece of that 492 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:42,160 you know and it's kind of gross but at the same time a lot of those companies did end up helping 493 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:48,320 bands make some money and get through that at that time you know so well we're so here's my last 494 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:53,440 question because Mike I know you got to get on a flight and go back home to the cold bird 495 00:51:53,440 --> 00:52:06,000 all right so it is February 18th 2026 it's two years from now let's hear let's let's hear your 496 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:13,280 projections where are we two years from now and I'm gonna put a note in my calendar to go back and 497 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:18,080 if I'm alive good Lord Rowell and in the Creek Dull Rise right two years from now I'll go back 498 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:23,360 and listen to this like what what what where are we two years from now with respect to anything 499 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:33,600 in this genre like price of Bitcoin value for value gigs wave like RSS what do you feel really 500 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:43,040 strongly about where we are two years from now Mike 2026 I mean I I'm a big corner because I'm 501 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:51,840 you know I think it makes me feel safe right and Sam spoke about how uncertain the world feels right 502 00:52:51,840 --> 00:53:00,880 now and so when you ask me about 2026 it's not all it's not all roses and unicorns right but uh 503 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,760 all the national parks have been turned into parking lots yeah but I mean unfortunately I think a lot 504 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:12,160 of these you know we sit here and talk about censorship resistance hard money all of the 505 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:19,840 protections and value that we see in Bitcoin and the adjacent communities unfortunately 506 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:29,200 you know the majority of people are perfectly fine um sacrificing privacy and security for convenience 507 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:37,680 and I think a lot of these things really take off in dark times right so like there could be a weird kind of 508 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:47,280 good and bad when like Bitcoin becomes really mainstream it might not be a great you know might not 509 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:53,360 be a great function for a lot of people um like some bad things in the world might be going on with 510 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:59,920 their monetary systems but you know as Bitcoin grows and more people become aware of it these things 511 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:05,600 in music are going to be more exposed you know when the price goes up you know you're going to start 512 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,800 getting those texts from your friends who want to know about Bitcoin and then when when Bitcoin goes 513 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:17,520 up maybe these musicians will listen to me and say yeah I want I want to do that thing that you were 514 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:24,320 doing in 2024 yeah I want to do that thing now I'm ready now yeah I want even if they just want that 515 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:30,000 hard money you know yeah like they might not care about the string you know but it's yeah I think 516 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,720 I really do think even this fall I think you're going to hear people talking about it on the 517 00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:41,600 campaign trail I think you're gonna you're gonna hear about more and more the more politicians talk 518 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:49,520 about it in a negative sense everything's good for Bitcoin you know it really like I kind of like 519 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:56,160 I come to that conclusion of you know if people are trying to shut it down more people are 520 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:02,400 going to want it yeah and um I just think it's going to be in 2026 I think it's going to be right 521 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:11,920 there in your face and um and hopefully you know we will we will have played the long game in music and 522 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:20,800 set that foundation for when the floodgates open will be ready to you know have toons stir going 523 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:26,400 multiple times a day and wave lake will have mainstream artists because it really could just be 524 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:34,960 a gradually then suddenly moment where yeah some major artist has a success and you know we saw 525 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:42,400 Ainsley Castello just getting the million sat song you know that could be like your your first 526 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,640 ball run of wave lake yeah yeah well one of the things I think that will happen within two years 527 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,600 or two years from now is on wave lake you will have multiple people every month 528 00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:01,040 getting a million sats a song oh yeah that's one of the things I think will happen unless 529 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:07,600 the set will be worth so much more yeah oh yeah I mean the other thing and I want to get to your 530 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:12,560 predictions but here's here's here's a couple of my heart predictions one is I think you'll have 531 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:19,600 multiple artists getting a million sats per song per month I think Bitcoin I'm not convinced I'm 532 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:25,920 Bitcoin hitting seven figures but I I'm pretty comfortable saying 250,000 in two years yeah which 533 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:32,000 will lower the amount of streaming sats that we see on podverse and pod fans and true fans and 534 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:41,680 things of that nature but as the value goes up you know that's okay and I think somebody I also 535 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:47,280 think congress will be paralyzed continuously I don't think we're going to get through this 536 00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:55,520 political cycle just because of a next you know the next presidential election in nine months I don't 537 00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:00,880 think it's gonna change really that much of anything which is good for Bitcoin but I do think that 538 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:06,320 and I've said this many times I do think somebody is going to bust out and go mainstream 539 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:14,640 from the value for value world and they and when they go mainstream and they start talking and 540 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:19,120 the mainstream press picks up on hey where'd you get your start where'd you have your first success 541 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,400 and when that artist comes back and says well you know what it really happened over in Bitcoin 542 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:28,480 but yeah and I don't know who that artist is going to be I meant maybe that artist doesn't even 543 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:34,480 hasn't even hit the RSS and and Noster feeds yet well here's here's my bold prediction then I'm 544 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:42,320 gonna find them I hope you do as we've got yeah we've got the venues for yeah we've got the most 545 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:49,600 people running through our doors every year it just takes one yeah say I'm what are your predictions 546 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,600 two years from now where yeah and I think you guys are pretty dead on I mean I I agree I don't know 547 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:58,880 if we'll quite make it if we're talking a technical analysis here I don't think we'll quite make it 548 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:04,080 to 250 but I do think we'll get close to two you know we'll definitely be in the six digit territory 549 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:11,440 yeah which is gonna be a significant milestone for a lot of people um especially now this number 550 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:18,400 just as this number goes up and up it gets it gets less you're less able to sort of talk about it going 551 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:23,760 down to zero now becomes almost impossible yeah whereas like when it was in 2020 when it dipped down 552 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:28,080 to three thousand dollars that was a significant drop from 20 you know but then if we get to 553 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:34,000 a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and it drops down to back down to 50 or 60 or 80 or something 554 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:39,680 that's still kind of hard to argue it's hard to argue at that point so yeah I think the price 555 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:44,000 action will definitely drive in a lot of those aunts and uncles and cousins and neighbors and friends 556 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:50,000 again like you said we'll start getting those text messages and that will the really cool thing 557 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:57,920 that I've been very tapped into is the the builders market the builders market that we were in the 558 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:02,960 last three years there have been some incredible infrastructure things put in place in the last three 559 00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:09,440 years that are that will are preparing us for what's about to happen for this next next 560 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:16,560 explosion and a lot of those companies that started in the last three years have been developing will 561 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:24,080 be solidified and will become bigger companies and that will pave the way for a whole new generation 562 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:29,040 of awesome ideas and innovation that's going to come out all this stuff so I think there's going to be 563 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:34,480 a lot of confusion I would say in two years I think there will be a lot of confusion because we'll see 564 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:43,120 more people coming in but just like anything like the other thing I keep saying like a lot of people 565 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:48,320 will come in fast to try to catch the wave of what's happening and when we go back down to the 566 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,080 whatever that the end of that cycle is I think some people will be sort of confused with how that 567 00:59:52,080 --> 01:00:01,280 works and that's pretty common in these cycles but I think as the cycles continue to progress that 568 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,600 it will become more stable it will become a more stable thing you know because Bitcoin becomes more 569 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:13,200 scarce the supply becomes more scarce just because we have these ETFs and things buying up the supply 570 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:20,160 every every day almost now in the last few weeks so I mean I'm very hopeful for it I do agree the world's 571 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:26,240 going to be probably pretty funky in two years I think the financial situation is not going to get 572 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:32,560 to get better I think we're going to see some form of like a digital you know fed currency or something 573 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:37,760 will will be there but I think that all those things will just be more reason for people to want to 574 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:49,200 jump into this yeah well my hope I hope in two years I'm still doing podcasts I'm still doing I'm 575 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:55,360 still having great conversations like this yeah I want to thank you guys I've said this to you 576 01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:03,280 privately I'm happy to share it publicly what you guys have done from my life from my family's life 577 01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:11,520 has been transformative since July it's just been stunning I cannot thank you guys enough for your 578 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:17,280 friendship and your mentorship and for the opportunities that you've provided and for sending me 579 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:25,280 down this crazy rabbit hole path we're here to help Jim that's why we're here we want to 580 01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:31,440 see we want to see everybody who's passionate about this be successful and and find their way that's 581 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:38,640 that's what we're doing here so happy to have to be your friend right up like was let's let's check 582 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:44,240 in on these predictions in a couple yeah yeah two years of a b see who's right yeah yeah we 583 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,960 should we're all gonna right I should repost it you know it'll be I mean that means I'm going to have 584 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,720 to change the podcast schedule because it'll probably fall on a Tuesday instead of a Monday 585 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,480 no it'd be a Wednesday wouldn't it because it'd be two years cycle I don't know that's that's what 586 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:04,560 we have to ask me that's what we have Google calendars for so gentlemen thank you very much thank you 587 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:09,680 I'll see you when I see you awesome and Sam like man I wish I could stick around and place 588 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:15,200 some of these cool hey feel free cool keyboards and amps you got in this place and Michael saved 589 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,680 travels home brother yeah thank you appreciate it thanks for pressing the buttons for us today Sam 590 01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:27,280 yeah but now let's go see if it actually saved let's check it out well there you have it that was a 591 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:33,120 lot of fun and if you found yourself fiddling with the volume on your phone your podcast player 592 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:40,720 don't worry about it that was us we rushed in we reported it we rushed out so I'm here in the studio 593 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:46,160 and I had to compress the lib of the Jesus out of those files just to get them up to a certain 594 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:52,400 audible level so that's why you hear it all that hiss in the background I also want to thank Michael 595 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:59,760 Reed from Waibili I had a lot of fun conversations with him Saturday night after the event was over 596 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:04,480 we just sat there and geeked out about music and we were trading record ideas and 597 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:11,440 you know people to listen to so just wanted to give a shout out to him as well thank you guys very 598 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,720 much for listening thank you for all the sats over the over the past couple weeks I'll do a recap 599 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:21,600 on those later on in the week don't forget on Wednesday we'll be back with another fan of power 600 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:30,160 music hour and then on Friday we will do the Phantom Power music review and that'll do it 601 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:37,040 if you got any questions reach out to us on NOSTA reach out to us on telegram and also on the 602 01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:43,840 website phantompowermusic.io that'll do it kids take care we'll talk to you soon