(upbeat music)
- Hey everybody, welcome to Phantom Power Business Hour.
It is Monday, Monday the fourth of March,
and fun conversation today, looking forward
to talking to this gentleman.
I know I spend a boatload of my time
in the music world and the music industry,
talking about independent musicians.
And then lo and behold, this gentleman comes across my path
who is filmmaker and founder of IndieHub.studio.
His name is Zach Mahoney, and Zach is,
as you could probably figure out, a filmmaker,
and a resident of Los Angeles, actually,
just a couple of blocks away from my wife and I used to live.
So Zach, welcome, thanks very much for coming on the show, dude.
- Absolutely, thank you for having me, looking forward to it.
- Yeah, let's rip it up.
I mean, this is gonna be a fun conversation for me,
because my experience with film and Indie filmmakers
is relegated to a really small portion of my brain.
Now, I was lucky enough to be an extra on a couple of shows
when I lived in LA, and of course,
I've seen my daughter doing videos and things like that.
But it's, you know, it stands to reason
that you guys have the same struggles
as independent musicians do.
So I'm thrilled to hear that you are in V,
that you're down with value for value and Bitcoin
and all that kind of stuff.
So let's start at the very beginning, dude,
where we know you're out in the studio,
a city, you know, neighborhood of Los Angeles,
but where are you from and how'd you get into filmmaking?
- Well, all good, all great questions.
I'm from a little town up in Northern California,
called Nevada City, Nevada City Grass Valley,
kind of the same spot when you're from up there.
Tiny little, tiny little spot up in the Sierra Nevada,
as well as Sierra Nevada,
sort of in between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe.
And I got into acting because I was the loudest kid
in a class in like second grade or whatever,
and the teacher was like, okay, you're the lead,
because people can hear you, shut up.
- Yeah, sure.
- So that kind of got me into it and it was a natural fit.
I loved it.
I loved it from the very beginning.
And then right around eighth grade or whatever,
teachers start talking to you about what you're supposed to do
for job or money, you start thinking about high school
and college and all that.
And I guess the thought sort of occurred to me like,
man, if I could be an actor, that'd be sweet.
That'd be super down for that.
And lo and behold, this guy came to town from LA,
he was actually born and raised in Grass Valley as well.
He was much older than me.
I was like 14 at the time.
But he'd gone down to LA to be a filmmaker
and he came back up to Grass Valley to produce this movie.
And there were a couple of legitimate names attached to it
and it was kind of a big deal at that time.
So everybody in the town's auditioning for this movie,
I'm like lines out the door.
It was totally ridiculous.
Like, you know, I think thousand people showed up
or whatever it was.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, start.
- Exactly.
Long, long story short, developed a friendship
with this guy and the other people working on the movie.
And one of the casting director on the film at the time,
after I auditioned for her, basically called me up and said,
hey, I think you have a lot of talent.
And I'd be interested in managing your career
if you'd be interested in moving to LA.
And her name was up on a couple of movie posters.
I coincidentally had it in my room and I was like, yep.
(laughs)
I'm in.
- I'm leaving.
- She's like, what?
(laughs)
- Ace Deuce on this place later on.
So I tested out at high school early.
I got a job at McDonald's at like 15 or whatever,
saved up like 400 bucks, 500 bucks,
moved to LA during a pilot season.
With like a kind of a distant relative
that I didn't know super well.
And I was basically like, I'm gonna come down here
for this pilot season and if I don't book a job
in three or four months, then I'm gonna go back home
and go to community college and kind of figure it out
from there.
Right at the three month mark when I'd run out of money.
Like I went down there and I was like,
you know, I got 500 bucks or whatever.
I'm bi-
- Easy.
- I bought like an Xbox game, like immediately.
(laughs)
- Oh, no.
- I'm free.
- Yeah.
- Poor.
- Exactly.
Like shit, that would've been like 10 sandwiches.
So basically ran out of money and like right
when I ran out of money, I booked my first job
which was a spec orange juice commercial.
And if I remember correctly,
I think it was John Seale who was directing it.
He was trying to get into directing
and he's obviously a huge cinematographer.
I didn't really appreciate it at the time,
but I was like, cool, 650 bucks, cash, let's go.
So that kept me going.
Then I booked a play for like 120 bucks a week.
And so that was basically like gas money
to like get to the play and like, you know, subway occasionally
or whatever.
- And-
- Play how I have to ask what playhouse?
- It was the one man like on seventh and Wilshire
out in Santa Monica.
It's kind of a-
- Is that a black box?
- No, it was like an-
Actually, it feels more like an old church
but they turned it into like a community theater.
- Okay.
- And it's in a park right there on the corner.
It's now totally overtaken by crackheads and whatnot.
But so I've drive down there to do my thing.
And then right when the play premiered,
I think the night of the premiere, I wanna say,
I booked a big Disney world kind of national spot
that paid a bunch of money.
It's like five figures, you know.
And back in the day, you got residuals, you know.
And so that money would just keep coming in for however long.
So that was kind of it.
After, I don't remember if that was six months or a year,
but that kind of kept me there.
My mom had to fly out Florida with me to shoot this commercial.
It was with a big action director and huge budget
and a bunch of crazy stuff.
And they paid us a bunch of per DM when we got into the hotel
and my mom was like, okay, I guess I guess this is legitimate.
- Yeah.
And that was kind of it, man.
And then it was just a whole whirlwind of other stuff.
That's how I got into the film business.
- Wow, that's cool.
What was the, say it was a Disney like commercial?
- Yeah.
So they were promoting at the time.
I think they probably got rid of it.
I'm not sure, but at Disney World in Florida,
they had brought over this French.
There was an action show that they did at Disney World in France
and they were bringing it over to Florida.
And so it was called something, something extreme,
like extreme stunt show, whatever.
And so the attraction was actually they had a big,
you know, you could fit a lot of people.
It was like a grandstand.
And then they had what looked like a Hollywood back lot
and they'd have all these stunt drivers
and motorcycle people and stunt men
like just perform what felt like it was kind of behind
the scenes action movie.
So there's just like explosions and cars flying
all over the place and people shooting guns.
And so they played that in like movie theaters
on the East Coast for, I don't got five years
or something, six years.
- Wow.
Well now how did you go from acting into filmmaking?
- So we kind of always been filmmakers, you know,
I mean, my buddies and I from whatever, fifth grade, sixth grade,
like the second we got our hands on a little video recorder,
it was kind of over, you know, we realized we could like
reverse footage and then that was it.
It was like, I could dunk, you know?
- Yeah.
(laughing)
- So we started editing pretty quickly
and I got a final cut system when I was like,
I wanna say like 13 or 14.
- Wow.
- Yeah.
And like kind of taught myself that over the years.
I think that-
- So for those who don't know, final, I started to interrupt,
but final cut, like for the musicians who were listening,
final cut is to video what pro tools is to audio.
- Yeah, yeah.
It was like the new, the new pro tools, you know?
It wasn't an avid obviously, but yeah.
But yeah, for 13, you know, that was kind of a serious commitment
to some technology, but I think really like,
probably the first time I ever operated camera was like
recording a church video, you know?
It's just like zoom in super slow, zoom out, super slow.
(laughing)
So anyway, long story short, like I'd always been fascinated
by the technology I loved editing.
We always had fun as kids, we'd like write scripts
and stuff, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, whatever.
- So when actually kind of a similar situation,
so in 2008, there was a big strike happened in Hollywood.
That coincided right around the time,
the same time can, and released the 5D Mark II,
the internet was getting better,
and Netflix was on the scene.
So these three things, top politics, technology,
and economics, all three of these converged
and absolutely demolished.
I mean, the world was messed up anyway, because of 2008,
but what people don't know about the industry
is you had the technology component,
the 5D Mark II changed the game, completely changed the game.
And Netflix was doing it thing.
So politics, technology, economics, politics being the strike,
technology, and then obviously the economy collapsed.
So that was another massive transformation of Hollywood
as a business.
It completely changed everything.
So I was, I was like, just not,
I just kind of entered the business in the old model,
a few years prior, three or four years prior.
And then when 2008 hit, kind of everything changed.
And after a few years, I started to realize,
like I was, forgive pardon my friends,
but the pile of shit at the bottom just grew and grew
and grew and grew and grew.
And I didn't want to, I just got sick of auditioning
for garbage, you know, before that, it was like,
there was some great stuff going on,
and then it was like, I am, but I am absolutely bustin',
like that didn't come here to do this.
I really didn't.
So I got sick of it.
And that kind of motivated a buddy of mine,
a good friend of mine had kind of moved down with me
to LA around the same time.
And he's a phenomenal cinematographer and filmmaker.
And so this was like maybe mid-20s-ish,
and we were just fed up and we said,
we need to do something that has some value
and some meaning and importance.
And this documentary kind of just fell in our lap,
the story of this, this guy named Kyle Bryant.
And it was kind of off to the races.
And I went and shot this documentary and that was kind of
the entrance into like actual production for me.
- Let me bring up one real quick thing, about 2008,
to the lot of people may not remember or have an idea about,
but 2008 is really about the time that Web 2
really took its strangle hold on society.
Web 2 being the walled gardens of Facebook of social media,
of the interaction between people on the web,
especially with cell phones.
So culturally like 2008 is a big year as far as Web 2
and technology is concerned.
And that of course relates to where we're eventually
gonna talk about.
But yeah, like I just, I totally,
when you talked about those three things,
the economy, the technology and the industry,
like it's just light bulbs went off for me, man.
Like I get it, absolutely.
- Yeah, 100%.
- I forget where I read that originally,
that it was a long time ago, but this idea that
when those three things kind of culminate
in any industry, it's guaranteed to get
absolutely demolished and then rebuilt from the ground up.
And that's exactly what happened in 2008.
And when I put the two and two together,
I went, that's what happened.
That's exactly what happened.
- Okay, technology, economy, and what's the third again?
- Politics.
And here we are again, everything old,
is new again.
That's a bear naked lady song, by the way.
It's a deep cut.
- Oh, I haven't heard that band name in a minute.
- And that is a deep cut off of their second release
called Maybe You Should Drive.
- All right, sorry.
So, all right, so now it's 2008, 2009, 2010,
you gotta like a documentary thing going,
you're tired of auditioning for crap.
Sounds like some of the bands around the Nashville area.
And you start making your way over to filmmaking.
So tell us about some of the projects you've been involved with.
- Oh man, all kinds of random stuff.
Yeah, so my buddy and I Kevin did this documentary
and it took us, you know, there's the,
there's the, what are they?
I was looking this up the other day.
They call it the Iron Triangle.
There's a few other words for it,
but it's the good fast cheap pick to situation.
And we had this movie and we didn't have any money
and I needed it to be good.
I wanted it to be good.
So it was gonna take us a long time.
So producing this doc took us like five years
from starting to shoot it to actually releasing it,
mostly just because we didn't have money
and we wanted it to be decent.
So my buddy Kevin and I kind of moonlighted
doing this documentary over a number of years.
While that was happening, I was actually studying,
I was kind of deep in a studying acting
at a studio here in LA,
Myzard studio called Baron Brown.
And so I was super deep in and that
and this was kind of like the middle of my transition
while we were producing this documentary.
And then I kind of fell into,
we fell into shooting a lot of dance stuff.
- Okay.
- Like contemporary ballet,
we kind of fell into a group of some really, really world class
dancers, contemporary and ballet.
And so we went and shot a bunch of really kind of avant-garde,
super fun dance stuff for like a number of years.
We did a lot of really cool fun stuff there.
And that kind of kicked it off
and then that kind of pushed stuff into music videos
and we did a bunch of shorts
and then that kind of progressed into like,
we just kind of realized we were good,
at least I did, we were good at run and gun stuff.
You know, multi-cam live stuff
that you get one opportunity to shoot.
So we kind of started trying to cut ourselves
a little bit of a business niche of, you know,
doing a lot of run and gun high intensity,
you know, you get one opportunity to do it kind of thing.
So that sort of evolved into an event media business,
conventions,
corporate stuff, commercials.
Oh, I mean, literally just weddings.
All right.
So let me just insert a joke.
Like you only got one chance to get it right at the wedding.
We're not doing this again.
Exactly.
Can you guys stop and do your bows over again?
Yeah, cut.
Look, honey, I'm gonna need you to have more emotion here.
Yeah.
I didn't feel that one, bro.
Yeah.
You didn't take five.
Bicker, sir, Montsenier, Padre, whatever your name is.
Really? Come on.
Let a little more conviction about the vows
and the importance of these sanctity of marriage.
Please.
All right.
Everybody from the top.
Or, or, you know, almost that would almost be respectable,
but the problem would always be like,
Oh, fuck, my microphone's not turned on.
(laughing)
Yeah.
You know, what does sound guys call us,
vitiates, you know?
It's a classic.
Oh, it's a classic, yeah.
Oh, great.
Yeah, that's good.
I always appreciate inside humor.
That's good.
(laughing)
Wow.
Okay, so now, so how many years have you been,
has this been your main business model,
your main source of income now?
Oh, Reynolds, too.
I got into the equipment rental business for a while.
Okay, good.
Yeah.
Good.
That was, that was probably, man, 2015 to,
all at 15 to 20, something like that.
Yeah, I'd say like 13 to 20, something like that.
And then along comes COVID and I'm sure all your plans
just completely upended.
We were literally going to hire our first full time,
W2, like salary to employee on the Monday,
that they, and they closed down the entire,
if everybody remembers, they closed it down on a Friday.
No, I bet.
We were like, we gotta do this thing on Monday.
Wow.
(laughing)
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and that, so that sort of,
that sort of segues into what we're up to now
or where things are at now, I guess,
the very quick version, but I had kind of stumbled
into the crypto rabbit hole in 2017.
Okay.
And so COVID hits, shuts down, you know,
I'm not doing any large events with multiple cameras.
I guess not happening.
So with, you know, 2,000 people in a room or whatever.
And so then it kind of led to, you know,
the, what you guys called the value for value or web five,
well, I don't, we gotta come to,
everybody asked for great answers terms, too many.
Yeah, there needs to be a meeting.
Yeah, all right guys.
Yeah, seriously, we need to, we need to call a meeting,
Dorsey, whoever else, like let's talk.
Can we all agree on the terminology here?
So yeah, so how, so, you know, I am fascinated
as a guy who has spent, you know, 30 some odd years
in and around the music industry
and really fighting for independence
and loving independent musicians.
How, let's talk about being an independent,
filmmaker, I mean, my God, we, we, we talk,
we always talk about how tough it is for an independent artist
to, to make a living, you know, but God, it's,
it's the, it's the exact same thing for you guys, you know,
I mean, I mean, there are those rare moments
of independent films or, you know, the, the script
that gets tossed around, you know, the, the, the swingers
of the world that break out into the mainstream
or for that matter, even goodwill hunting, I guess,
in some respects.
But talk about the challenges of independent filmmaking.
- It's a great question and it's one that my understanding
for has changed, pre-significantly over the years.
So when I started my life down here,
I was very hardcore, you know, artist type.
I had zero, maybe negative respect for anything related
to finance or business or money.
I just wasn't raised with it.
I didn't have any familiarity with it
and I had a very immature, disdain for it,
based on some of my own upbringing
and my family's, you know, history and, this and that.
So I guess I, I guess I say that because I really started
from like zero or maybe backwards of zero
with regards to the business side of any of this.
So as a, as an artist, I was concerned with being good.
I was concerned with my craft.
I was concerned with skill and trying to, to be better at that.
And then of course you run up into the professional world
of it, which, you know, has less to do with skill and craft
than we would, than we would like.
Yeah, you know, you know, it's like, you just,
you're out there, you're hustling, you're auditioning,
you're, you're being told, no, like 45 billion times.
And it doesn't really make any sense.
And you think it's, I thought it was,
I thought it was a highly competitive business
when I was young.
And then my perspective around the business side
of things started to change.
As I started to run my own businesses
and I started to understand how money worked
a little bit better and, I'm jumping ahead here,
but kind of what I realized is that it's actually
not a competitive business at all.
And that's the problem.
Really, there's about, I mean, I'm glossing over this.
This is, I'm saying this for brevity's sake,
I'm being, I'm being a little bit facetious.
But like, there's like six people who ride all the checks.
Yeah, you can say the same thing about the music industry.
Yeah, 100%.
And that's, that's just not competitive.
That's competitive for everybody except the people
who are buying, which is not competitive.
You know what I mean?
Every, the rest of it becomes deeply political
when there's no real market.
And so when I was younger, I thought it was,
you know, I thought, I thought I needed to concern myself
at that time with being a good artist,
which is true.
I still hold to that, but I just didn't understand
the business dynamics that made the business less about the art
and more about the politics and where the actual money
was coming from.
And so in, in Hollywood pre 2008, as, you know,
as messed up as Hollywood has been and as is a bad rap,
as Hollywood gets and has gotten for a long time,
my experience of it pre 2008 was,
was one where there was a little bit more of a,
there was more of a ladder, there was more of a process,
it was a little bit more about talent.
If you had some good talent and you had some drive
and you had decent reps and you were able to grind,
you would be able to climb up the ladder.
And back then the ladder was like,
you start out in, you know, you might get,
you might get a co-star on a TV show
and then maybe you get a guest star
and then maybe you're on a show
and then maybe you'd go to an independent movie
and then if you could do that and get garnered audience
and then maybe you make it to features
and that was where everybody wanted to be.
2008 hit and the entire funnel started going backwards.
The movie stars went into TV, the TV stars went down,
the movie stars went to independence,
independence went to TV, TV actors were like broke, you know.
- They went to, they went to beta max.
- Exactly.
- They were doing plays and they're garage.
(laughing)
And so the whole business started to reverse
and I had no, I didn't, this is all me
and you know looking back on it with the different lens.
I used to live over in Studio City near Universal
and if you know that, you know, the 101 goes there under Ventura.
- Yeah man, right there by the big potato.
- Yep, yep, by Vivian, Smolinium Cafe,
used to frequent this. - Of course, quite a bit.
But there's the Universal Building, right?
When I moved here, the skyscraper there,
it just said Universal on.
And then a few years passed and then it said NBC Universal.
And then a few more years passed
and now it says Comcast NBC Universal.
(laughing)
- Yeah.
- And so, yeah.
It's what happened in 2008 is,
there was the beginnings of this massive consolidation
of these companies by larger publicly traded companies.
So, I'm just trying to get back to the artist perspective here,
which was like, it was incredibly challenging.
It was incredibly challenging
and none of it made any sense
and it was incredibly frustrating.
I remember realizing, 'cause I didn't really know any better.
I had a job in McDonald's, you know,
and then I went to LA and then my life was kind of in LA,
doing filmmaking stuff.
I don't, I remember when I started to like,
you know, kind of poke around in the world outside
of this business and I realized like,
how much easier every other industry was.
I was like, oh, you can just like decide to start a business
and go make money like quickly.
- What?
And it wasn't until then that I realized how absolutely
positively absurd this industry was
'cause I just didn't have any perspective on it.
From just like a go do something and make money standpoint.
- Yeah.
- Everything was dependent upon a few people
making a judgment about you that was not really qualitative.
It was impossible to measure, it was super subjective.
And anyway, so it took me a number of years
to realize like what was going on and maybe like,
I don't know four, five years ago,
I realized that it was, the problem was really about risk.
And this consolidation of all of these entertainment companies
and production companies and movie companies
and Netflix just taking over everything
and that's being a tech company.
The appetite for risk was just completely stripped away.
And so the art was stripped away, in my opinion,
in a big deal and a big way.
So I don't know if that, I don't know if that,
I kind of jumped all over the place,
I don't know if that answered the question, but.
- No, you draw a lot of parallels between film and music.
It's not necessarily a qualitative relationship
relationship, it's a monetary relationship.
And I think that that draws us perfectly into value
for value and why you started Indie Hub.
So tell us about what your thoughts are for starting it,
where you see it, what it is, what you want it to become
and where you see its potential lies.
- I have to answer the crypto question, I guess,
to lead into that one.
- Well, everybody, I mean, if they're listening
to this podcast that they know that we are here
because of Bitcoin, right?
- Right, right, right.
No, no, I just mean like how I stumbled into it
and then how that kind of connected dots for me.
I stumbled into it in 2017.
The buddy of mine called me up and I literally just happened,
there was like one of those random day,
I literally happened to be doing nothing.
I was sitting in this little office
and I was literally had nothing to do,
like one of the few times ever.
He called me up, he said, "Come in, hit me up out of the theorem
a couple of times."
I don't know what that means.
He's like, "You're gonna mine some theorem?"
I was like, "All right."
Okay, what the fuck does that mean?
I was sort of googling this,
just trying to figure this stuff out.
Had literally no idea what he was talking about.
But he was kind of persistent about it
and he had great ideas about stuff
and was tapped into stuff.
So I was like, "All right, I got time to check that."
- Honestly within like 45 minutes, I was hooked.
I was absolutely compelled mind-blowingly hooked
and I had been pretty much as obsessed since then.
What is that?
Seven years?
- Seven years.
- Seven years, seven years ago.
(laughing)
So I got a similar story to everybody else.
The thing that I had going for me is that I know
that I'm an idiot and so I know that I didn't have any real
opportunity to like gauge the value of any of these things
and so I was like, "All right, I'm just gonna like buy
everything and see what happens."
- Yeah.
And so I shit coin for a while and I started to realize
I was really interested in XRP back in the day.
And the reason I was interested in it was because they
really at the time were the first, it was the first piece
of software that actually allowed you to open a payment
channel and do like 50,000 transactions a second.
Essentially what lightning is now,
but this is before lightning was working.
And you could really open up a channel
and you could do these transactions super, super quickly.
And I had just never thought, I had just never thought like,
"Oh, you could, if you could pay for something
in fractions of a penny for a second,
well why couldn't you do that with a song or with a movie?"
And I had just, this is a couple years after producing this
documentary and producing this documentary,
we had like 16 or 17 songs in it, like really great soundtrack
at my opinion.
And we had the wonderful help of a music supervisor
by the name of Sean Farnall, he's fantastic.
But there's absolutely no way we would have been able
to navigate that without a music supervisor.
And the contracts and the deals in that are,
I mean, I know you guys all know this, but for me,
I'm like, wait, so there's two sides?
And then there's gonna be like 10 people on a side
and we gotta talk to all of them.
I was like, this is outrageous.
Like what?
- So you got three writers and six publishing companies
and then you got the guy from Hollywood Sound
who owns 20% of the Master's in Jesus.
- Exactly.
I was like, what, how does any of this work?
- Yeah.
And so it was pretty quick.
It was pretty quick.
Once I realized you could stream money for, you know,
and just gait like a movie or whatever.
I was like, well, why couldn't we just distribute the rights?
You know, I was deep in this problem
and I was deeply frustrated by it.
And there's a solution like pop, I was like,
well, why couldn't we just stream the value and just say,
cool, you get 10% and you're split it to like your whole
music industry and you guys get X% and it's like,
damn, this would be sweet.
And I think at the time, I had no,
I had no like aspiration to, I was a filmmaker.
I wasn't, I'm not a developer.
I certainly wasn't then.
So I was just kind of like waiting to see if it would happen.
Like who would do it?
And then COVID hit.
And I was like, well, I was deep into it at that point,
deeply into the crypto world.
I wanted to build this originally on the XRP ledger.
And it was in trying to do that,
that there's a lot of things that led me to Bitcoin,
but it was in trying to do that,
that I started to understand what the Maxis were talking about
with regards to actually the decentralization of the network.
And I realized and I tried very hard to like figure out
how I could run a node for the company, for a business.
Like would this be possible?
And participate in the network and shoot value around
to artists and filmmakers and whatnot.
Nice.
And I came up on the fact that like you can't.
Like it would have been tens of thousands of dollars a month
in hardware and bandwidth and networking expertise.
And Bitcoin was just like, oh, this is like download this thing
over here on this hard drive.
Yeah.
That was kind of, yeah, that was one of the first of many things
that sort of cracked that for me.
Well, when you look at where it is now with Lightning
and NOSTER and RSS and the fact that you're,
I mean, tell us a little bit specifically about IndyHub.Studio
and what you want to, what you have begun to create.
Who is it for?
So the idea is it's for film, it's for audience members.
Really what I want to do is I want to create a direct relationship
between audience members, filmmakers and investors.
The investor piece is going to be outrageously complicated
and we'll take probably many years and a lot of them, we'll see.
But for right now, I want to create a direct relationship
between audience members and filmmakers.
And I want to, that market that I was talking about previously
that I feel like is not competitive and is monopolistic.
It's monopolistic because they control, they have the money,
they get to dictate where the money is going
and they also get to sort of control and manipulate
how the money enters their little ecosystem in the first place.
So for me, I want to just plug the audience,
attention directly into the filmmakers product.
Every second that an audience member is watching something,
that's going directly into the wallet of the filmmaker
or anybody who's involved in that film.
Let's say you and I wanted to go do a short music documentary,
a co-cool, I'll give you 50%, I'll take 50%
and we're being paid in real time as people are watching that movie
and that value is being routed.
Essentially, however we want it to on a percentage basis.
And in so doing, at least hope, ideally,
we establish a direct market.
And so the people who are making great films
and who are focused on their craft and who are skillful
and good at what their job is and they're okay to take risk.
Risk is incredibly important and art is incredibly important.
We're allowing them to take that risk
and we're allowing them to be rewarded for that risk
if they've done a good job.
And if they haven't done a good job, you're not going to be paid.
It's simple, it shouldn't be that complicated.
If the product is not of quality,
it will be reflected in the value that is not given by the audience.
So as this company that you have formed begins to take hold,
are you looking for only independent filmmakers?
Are you looking for bands with either videos or live footage
to put up?
Are you looking for churches, put political organizations?
What are you looking for?
Who's your target market?
Great question.
So right now the platform is very cinematic.
And that's just because we got to establish a beachhead somewhere
and expand from there and I know movies.
But there's no reason that this shouldn't,
once it grows, be able to support musicians, podcasters,
live shows and feeds, you could imagine stand-up comedians
or a band playing a live show where people can tap in.
I want film festivals to have a huge presence on the platform.
Oh yeah.
Of course.
Huge opportunity there for film festivals to do stuff.
So music videos, I think there's,
big opportunity there, there's short films, right?
These are markets where there's no real way,
at least that I'm aware of,
to properly monetize something like a short film
and a music video or at least,
maybe if it's not a full monetization,
at least there's some kind of like, you know, reward for it.
And the other thing is is they're not really aggregated
in one spot, you know?
Yeah, I mean where do, like if my niece,
was an independent filmmaker and she had done a documentary
about whatever,
where would she put her film up,
like would she put it up on YouTube, on Bivio?
Like I really don't know anything about where independent filmmakers
or film students would post their independent projects.
Hopefully, IndieHub, let's see, is that where I'm meeting myself?
Ideally, IndieHub, you know, the idea there.
Where do they do it now?
Like, yeah.
It's a real challenge and I think this is kind of what I'm attacking
from an exhibition standpoint.
Kind of back to those gatekeepers,
there's a few people who get to decide
what go on, what platforms that have any real opportunity
of paying a filmmaker back or an investor in a film back at all.
So there's a few options, right?
Like either you're an original,
they call them originals now, like a Netflix original
or a Hulu original, in which case obviously the studio
is putting up the entire budget.
And then maybe if you went and independently produce something
that was really, really incredible,
you might get an offer from a studio, say,
well, we'll buy the rights to this
and we'll get exclusivity and we'll put this on Netflix.
And here's a check, take it or leave it kind of thing.
Yeah.
Which, here's another thing, this is kind of a side topic, right?
But like this whole model has destroyed residuals.
You know, I'm sure musicians are in a slightly similar situation,
but for actors back in the day,
you made your living off of residuals.
Yeah, you mean value for value?
Well, back in the day, it was actually just residuals
of the new model with networks or like Netflix or Hulu or whatever.
They just tell you, here's the number, take it or leave it.
You're not getting paid.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
There's no residuals like a syndication
for a sign-thulter mash or anything like that.
Okay.
And that was a huge part of the business if you were a,
especially an actor.
I mean, that's how you made a living.
You know, it was this, a cruel of value over years
and you'd get your check.
So that's all gone, which is a real problem.
That's what this most recent strike was,
a huge part of the strike was about things like residuals.
Mm, yeah.
That's funny.
You say that because a big portion of what I heard the strike was about
or the only thing that really made it
on the air over here was AI.
I mean, yeah, it was, there was a lot of stuff going on.
I'm definitely not the expert on the strike,
but I definitely know for a fact
that a huge part of the negotiation really had to do with residuals.
And Netflix doesn't give anyone any information.
They just throw a stupid number at people they like and say,
if you don't like it, then that's it.
You don't get anything.
They're not telling you if it's successful.
They're not telling you if it's getting viewed.
You don't have a financial incentive on the other end
to do a good job.
You're just, you just get paid and you leave and that's that.
Dude, the pair, dude, you're telling me like Netflix is like,
what, you talking about Netflix is like me talking to one
of my buddies back in LA who's been dealing with UMG for years,
just for music or Sony.
It's the exact same thing.
It's so centralized.
Yeah, there's so much smoke in mirrors.
Yep, yeah, it's uncanny.
Yeah, it's take it or leave it, you know?
Yeah.
God, okay.
Wow, so that, so in a perfect world when,
when IndyHub.studio is up and running,
people will be able to go there,
look at independent films from,
from filmmakers and artists around the world
and zap and boost them with Sats and,
and have that direct revenue stream.
Yeah, awesome.
Which, yeah, I kind of, they're,
I sort of bailed on the on the rest of the last question,
which was like, what are the alternatives?
Okay, so you, if you don't have some massive offer,
you know, then, then your best bet is you're gonna,
you're gonna try to get it to an aggregator.
And an aggregator is basically somebody who,
I'm gonna buy the rights to a thousand movies or 1500 movies
and I'm gonna go negotiate with the studio.
And the studio doesn't want to negotiate with 1600 filmmakers
individually.
Just gonna like negotiate with this aggregator,
the aggregator is gonna be like, cool, we got you a thousand dollars.
You know, like my budget was 200 grand, you know.
(laughs)
- What?
- Yeah.
- Just gonna cover up the cater bill.
- Straight up.
And, and they're like, well, that's what we got for you.
And so you just kind of take it and then,
they put your money up on random places
and then you see it in places and you're like,
what the hell?
And I'm not getting paid, but it's playing on stars or whatever.
Um, it's, it's just a disaster,
the whole thing's a disaster.
- Yeah.
- So,
really, I mean, where we are again today,
just like we were in 2008 with technology,
economic, the economy and politics,
is we are at the, you know, that,
that,
Bermuda triangle of externalities is really forcing its hand.
And it's a beautiful time for, for Bitcoin and value,
for value to take off.
- Yeah, I, I think, I think,
I think the timing is right.
Timing is everything, right?
Like there's this tension, there's this tension
that it builds up and then it releases.
And I think that we're in this moment of release,
right now.
Um, and, and that releases,
uh,
um, sort of looking for it's, it's, um,
brought about, I guess,
that's not what I was thinking about,
it's brought about by this technology.
The technology is the thing,
it's the catalyst that really, you know,
releases this pent-up energy and demand.
And, you know,
I fundamentally think that the reason,
the music industry and the reason,
the film industry are in a similar situation is because of the way
that finance and money works in our current system.
- Mm-hmm.
- And it disincentivizes art and artists to really do their job,
because art and artists, in my opinion,
our job is to progress consciousness forward.
And to do that, you have to live, you know,
right on the edge of chaos and order,
you have to be willing to take,
outsized risk.
And if, if you can't, then that job description,
you know, is no longer applicable
in society suffers and artists suffer and everybody suffering.
- You know, we all agree that like most of the stuff entering
the society right now from like an artistic perspective
is just garbage.
It's just not good.
- I would concur.
- And so, I think that's a function of how the rails work
and how money finds its way around the system.
And this technology, Bitcoin Lightning,
fundamentally alters the calculus on that.
And I think that it alters it for everybody,
but, you know, obviously you and I are cinema-centric,
music-centric.
So that's how we see it and that's what we're attacking
and that's the problem we're trying to solve.
But I just, at the end of the day,
I want to use this tech to create a direct relationship,
a direct, energetic relationship
between the audience and the artist.
Similar to how you would be in a room
if you were playing a live show or you were doing theater.
- Yeah. - There's a direct, energetic relationship.
- How many independent filmmakers are there
out there in America, do you think?
- Oh man.
Well, it's an interesting, it's a really good question.
The closest stat that I've been able to kind of figure out
and judge is just look at how many movies are submitted
to Sundance every year.
That's kind of a good way of figuring it out.
- I have no idea how many.
Like, I don't know.
- On an 28, 20 or 20,000.
It's usually around, I think the last data I read on it was like,
I don't wanna say it was like 14,000 movies.
So let's say it's somewhere between 14 and 17.
And the reason that Sundance is a good metric is
'cause basically when you're a filmmaker,
you just do a Hail Mary submission to Sundance
in the festival circuit.
- It just that everyone just does it.
You just do it.
That's what you do, even if you're not getting it,
you just do it.
So it's a decent proxy to figure out how many,
at least films are being produced.
So professional production, I would say there's hundreds of thousands,
if not low millions, depending on how you calculate that.
I mean, the market's expanding globally, obviously.
- Yeah.
- So tens of thousands, decision makers.
- Do you think that, I mean, I share your disdain
for the amount of poorly crafted art.
Poorly crafted art in the space.
And I always have to preface, like when I say this,
like I'm not talking about what I like and dislike.
- Yeah, 100% agree with you.
- That's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about a song that is poorly recorded
or poorly performed on tape, which is two different things.
- Yep.
- Or poorly crafted, you know?
And I've mentioned this time and time again,
you know, there's such a low barrier to entry on the music side
to getting in.
Like any knucklehead can grab one of those guitars
and post a song up on YouTube this afternoon.
- Right.
- I think the barrier to entry to your industry is much higher,
because just because of the sheer logistics and cost
associated with doing an independent project,
I mean, the industry, I'm familiar with,
there's, it's right with exceptional people
who really take care of everything themselves.
I mean, an oversimplified answer to that is Ed Sheeran, right?
A literal one man band in that regard.
But you guys don't have that luxury, like you guys, like,
God, I mean, to do a movie, like you gotta have at least two people,
somebody behind the camera and somebody in front of it.
I mean, I guess you don't, you get to have your cat,
but you know what?
(laughs)
- Documentary.
- Yeah, exactly.
- It's true.
I've always held the opinion that filmmaking
is the ultimate team sport.
There is nothing that requires more teamwork
than making a movie that I've done in my life.
- Yeah.
I also have this belief.
Somewhere in America, somewhere in the world,
you know, it could be Fort Dodge, Iowa,
it could be Munchen-Glodbach, Germany.
There's a band out there that they've recorded
the next white album, the next Masters of Puppets.
And it'll never get heard because there's,
and you know, and it's really sad,
but there's just, there's so much garbage out there.
And it's so, and the industry is so, like,
if we had a way to level the playing field with art,
like they'd have a better chance.
Like, you gotta believe some kid,
somewhere, you know, Shaborgan, Wisconsin,
has like shot the next, you know, Fletch or Casino or something.
It's just something absolutely brilliant,
and but it'll never get seen.
- Yep, that talent will not be cultivated.
It won't be crafted, you know,
the discipline won't be applied.
It's a shame.
The Bitcoiners, I forget the, I forget the stat,
but basically it goes something like,
there's kind of a fixed ratio if you just look at the math
of how many geniuses there should be in the world,
like legitimate geniuses.
- What's the metric there?
What, 140 on the Mensa?
- Yeah, I have no idea.
There's a lot of really stupid smart people too, but.
(laughs)
But their point is is that why aren't we, you know,
population is incredibly high right now,
billions of human beings.
There should be X amount of geniuses based on whatever
the math or the ratio is I've no idea.
But we're not, we're not seeing their outsized contribution
to society,
and that issue is, at my opinion,
one of incentives in the monetary system.
And just to your point, there's genius out there.
It's just, there's no, there's a very difficult system
that's not designed to recognize it and cultivate it.
You know, the incentives are just totally off.
- God, all right, let's dive into sociology, man.
We can do this for hours.
I love this.
- I'm in.
- You know, like I think too, like I don't think
that we as a species, I don't think we're done evolving.
- Oh, no, no.
- But what is technology doing to it?
Is it, is it dumbing us down?
Or is it, you know, is it making us more enhanced, you know,
like what if, I mean, just like in a weird way, you know,
like what if we were supposed to have six digits
on our hands and not five,
but the fact that we're all sitting here where their bones
and screwing up our thumbs, like what is that,
you know, what is technology doing
to the evolution of the species, so to speak, right?
Like, and I also love the point too about,
about genius, you know, you talk about geniuses getting discovered.
Like if you look back over time, like the smartest,
like the most creative people ever, ever.
And I don't care if it's creativity in physics, creativity
and medicine, creativity and art, they also,
they all of them, like the parallel is,
like there was some part of their personal lives
that was just an absolute utter disaster, you know?
So that, you know, like the brain, I always look at it,
it's like, you know, it's always balanced in one regard,
you know, like the brilliant guitar player
who can't balance his checkbook, you know,
the amazing physicist who, you know,
can't stop cheating on his wife, you know,
that type of stuff, you know?
- There's a really good book I recommend anyone,
everyone should read this book, it's called The Shadows,
I highly recommend.
Essentially, the conceit of the book is,
explores the question, really,
the bulk of the book is about the internet,
but to get to that point in the beginning of the book,
it talks about technology.
And it talks about how technology actually,
the tool alters the creator of the tool
as much or more than anything else.
So human beings go create technology
and then that technology actually fundamentally
changes the structure of our brains.
And so the tools end up altering us,
maybe more so than the tools allow us
to alter our physical environment.
And they go into the history of this,
it's super fascinating.
But it seems like, you know, the point is that it is unavoidable,
that any technology we use and interact with,
necessarily and fundamentally changes the structure of our brains.
That's any tool, it could have been maps,
you know, back in the day they talked in a book about maps being created
and how that fundamentally, no one had perceived the world
from outside above it before.
Anyway, phenomenal book highly recommended, really prescient.
But I think, my opinion on what you're saying is that
it's kind of like in film and storytelling,
the great stories are stories that reveal character.
They put character under a certain kind of pressure
and we'd like to see the main characters
under a particular kind of pressure to see who they really are
when shit hits the fan, when push comes to shove.
Money is kind of like that with people, you know,
you go give somebody, I don't know, $10 million or something
and like, that's not gonna reveal who they are.
It's not gonna change you there,
it's gonna reveal who they are.
- Amen.
- You know? - I totally agree with you.
- Yep.
And I think technology at a broader level,
it essentially does the same thing.
And so it's revealing who a lot of people are
and how a lot of people are.
And there are always going to be a particular,
you know, I don't know what the ratio is or number is,
but there's always gonna be people who use the technology
for a higher purpose and there are people who use the technology
for a lower purpose.
And I think that the technology is almost always just
revealing more about humanity than,
I don't think that it's destroying humanity.
I think that it just continues to reveal who and how we are.
- Yeah, and that's, I would agree.
And one of the things that I love about Bitcoin
is that no matter what your politics are,
what your religious beliefs are,
what your societal beliefs are,
there's an end for you on this, you know?
- Yep.
- There's a path in.
I had a great conversation in Phoenix a couple weeks ago
and I was down there for Culture Shock
in a, in a monster event with the Phoenix Club.
And I was talking to an individual
who's on the completely different political
and religious side than I am.
And it was so rewarding and so wholesome
to have a conversation about what we're passionate about.
And how we, how in this age where we're so divided
socially, politically, religiously,
that people are on two sides of the American spectrum
can really find common ground and have something to believe in.
And that common ground being Bitcoin.
I'll share the same thing with you that I shared with him
in that it's going to be interesting to see over time.
What happens with Bitcoin's adaptation?
And I believe it will occur.
I believe it will grow from being just bigger than
an amazing asset class or an amazing investment.
But what I'm kind of curious about is like,
if you go back to revolutionary time
and hour in hour history,
if you look at the John Adams of the North
and the delegation from the South,
in many respects they were on completely different sides
of the political spectrum,
but they had a common enemy in that common enemy was King George.
And what I worry about is we as Bitcoiners
have a quote unquote common enemy
which with respect to decentralization
and fiat currency in certain respects.
Right.
But what's going to happen to the community
once those goals are achieved and we get deeper and deeper
into decentralized cultures.
And I just hope that we can maintain our unity
as a group of maxis and not splinter and devour each other
because you can draw parallels.
It's kind of like the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of thing.
You know?
Yeah.
I think about this fair amount actually.
And I kind of back to the point about money revealing character.
I think that there are a lot of Bitcoin maxis right now
in the public sphere.
You know who I mean the private sphere too, but
that when this thing really rips,
and these people find themselves in positions of power and authority,
there's going to be a fair amount of them that don't make it ideologically
where the weight, the energetic weight of that much responsibility
will reveal who they truly are.
And it's easy to talk, it's easy to talk online,
and it's easy to talk shit and it's easy to type
and it's easy to understand Bitcoin and be on that side of the fight.
But it is a very different situation.
Somebody writes you like we said earlier, 10 million dollar check
or 50 million dollar check or 100 million dollar check.
Talk is cheap in that circumstance.
And I think that there's going to be a whole hell of a lot of people
that break in that circumstance.
It all happens.
Yep.
And I'm not, I guess I'm not even making a point about whether
that's good or bad or whatever.
I think that weakness should be broken.
I think that's always good.
I think that's the point.
And there's going to be a lot of people who are able to walk the walk
and continue to further the ideas that we hold dear.
Or I shouldn't even say their ideas.
I actually think that it's a fundamental--
I think it's more of a fundamental respect for the nature of this physical realm.
Decentralization, that's closer to how things should be.
Power is energy itself is--
the universe is comprised exclusively of energy.
It's fully decentralized already.
This would be the point about Bitcoin mining, right?
As long as you have an energy source, you can convert to electricity.
You can participate in the network.
And so I kind of imagine it like we're
allowing for a vibrant, thriving ecosystem to grow once again.
But kind of like a jungle.
The jungle is like kind of a scary place.
It's not rainbows and unicorns in there.
Like you got to get fight your ass off.
Right.
Some of the smaller insects, just the little tiny ones might take you out.
Exactly.
Look at that.
So everybody who's been in the jungle says they're like, it's not the big stuff.
It's the little guy you've got to worry.
I don't worry about pythons.
Yeah.
Well, Zach, we have been talking for an hour.
And it's been a great conversation.
And I hope this helps launch Indie Hub.
And I hope you get a lot of inquiries
from independent filmmakers around the world.
That said, let's wrap it up with some fun questions.
Done.
And these are hard hitting.
And I expect honest answers.
All right.
Number one.
You ready?
Come on.
You know, I'm going to do this top five films of all time.
Go for it.
Oh, man.
Come on.
You got the list off the top of your head.
Let's go.
Gladiator, American history X,
Chandler's list, Jurassic Park, the big Lebowski.
That's five.
We'll go with that.
That's what popped out.
Wow.
Baby private Ryan.
We got six.
Wow.
Interesting.
Nice to see the big Lebowski in there.
Just a gem.
Who is the guy who played the assistant who
pet Philip Seymour Hoffman?
Yep.
I mean--
Oh, man.
His work in Boogie Knights just blows me away.
He was so good.
He was one of the best of all time,
as far as I'm concerned.
The dude was an incredible actor.
Now, he's one of the few people that I actually really
got sad when he died.
I really was like, man, this is a loss for the art form.
He's--
Oh, almost famous.
I mean, Philip Seymour Hoffman, it almost famous.
Oh, my God.
Come on.
Yeah.
He was great as the snotty little brat in sent of a woman, too.
You know?
Just--
Yeah.
I mean, true master of his craft.
Yeah.
I'm surprised that none of those movies
that you just ripped off there listed, not ripped, excuse me,
listed, Martin Scorsese was not in any of those.
I mean, it's just too many great movies.
It's not because I don't like Martin Scorsese.
Is it--
Is it in the film world?
Is it like, oh, we don't like him?
Like, is it--
No.
Is it like, is it, really?
No.
I think--
kind of like you said earlier, like, if anybody's--
It's kind of hard to find people, which is this is sort
of a sad comment, but it's kind of hard to find people who
can look past something they don't like and just say that,
like, I might not like this.
This might not be my taste, but objectively,
this is a masterpiece.
Yeah.
You know, it's hard to find those kinds of people.
And I think Scorsese is like that.
It's objective.
Like, it's not really negotiable.
I don't think.
And everybody just kind of nods and like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Who directed Shawshank?
Spielberg.
Did he?
No, no, no.
No, sorry.
The cinematographer, he's always comes to my for Shawshank.
God, he's an absolute legend.
This embarrassing that he's escaping my brain right now.
We might have to ask Uncle Google on that one.
Oh my God.
So stupid.
He's just so embarrassing.
Um, like one of the great, one of the greatest cinematographers of all time.
Um, I can't remember.
I mean, Skyfall, um, Shawshank.
Oh, I gotta go back and watch the, I saw the, the first half of Skyfall on an airplane,
like a year and a half ago.
And I, and I haven't gone back and watch the back end of Skyfall.
I'm like, God, I gotta go back and see the back end of that movie.
So, um, all right.
Here's my top five.
All right.
You ready?
Good, fellas.
All right.
Godfather.
I'm trying to get my daughter to watch the Godfather.
And she doesn't, I'm like, God, drives me nuts.
She won't watch the Godfather.
I mean, there's some serious life lessons in there.
Like Tom Hanks was saying and you've got male, like, you know, you got to go to the mattresses
sometimes, you know?
So good, good, fellas, Godfather.
All right.
Rest in peace, PW Herman, because Peeley's big adventure is on my top five movies of all
time.
All right.
Uh, spinal tap.
Yeah.
And then classic, then, um, young Frankenstein.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know how Mel Brooks didn't get on there for me.
Yeah.
That's he's the, that dude's a legend.
Yeah.
What about blazing saddles, too?
Like you go, you know, you go back and watch it now and, and, and our, our culture now, like,
there's no way in hell that movie could be made, right?
You know, and you're like, and you're kind of conflicted watching it.
You're like, has this aged well?
Or is it?
No, not well?
Or is it still funny?
Is it, do I feel guilty for laughing?
You know, when the old lady comes up on the street, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah.
No, it's still, it's still funny.
It'll always be funny.
It's a true masterpiece.
And anybody who doesn't think that is, is, has been, their mind has been poisoned by, you
know, political correctness.
And they need to like rethink their entire, you know, how they got to this point in the
first place.
Like, absolutely not.
Yeah, you have to be able to laugh at yourself.
You have to be able to laugh at society.
You have to, um, yeah.
I, I, I still, you know, it's one of those ones who are when it comes on TV, if I happen
to run across, it's like, well, I better stop what I'm doing.
And yeah.
And watch the rest of this.
We saw a, a screening at the Nokia, um, of blazing saddles and Mel Brooks was there and
he did this long Q&A afterwards.
It was, it was, it was so cool.
He's just such a boss.
And he's, he was like, 90 years older, whatever.
He's still up there.
Just absolutely crushing it.
And he's still got it.
Yeah.
I was, I, I was at, um, I put, I mean, this will show you my age, right?
But I actually play, I like what one of the times I played a gig in LA at, uh, Genghis Cohen,
um, uh, Mr Brooks and Mr. Rainer were in there having dinner.
And, um, I, I was, you know, I didn't have the, I was probably drinking heavily at the
time, which is why I didn't go up and talk to them.
Um, a couple of people did and, and they said, you know, they were just so gracious and so
polite to everybody, uh, who came up, even, you know, I mean, they're, you know, that's
the way to do it.
Yeah.
A true boss acts and masters of their craft, you know, like these are people who really,
um, they were craftsmen.
They, they, they worked their, they worked their craft for their whole life and, and it's
just legends, true legends.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Well, Zach, thank you very much for coming on.
Um, where can people find you?
Uh, in Indie Hub.
All right.
So, probably easiest is quitter, um, @indie hub, IND, EE, HUB.
Um, if you want to sign up for updates, Indie Hub dot studio is the website.
You can check it out there.
Um, if you're a filmmaker or musician or you have a music video or something like that
and you want to reach out and, and see if you can get on.
We've got a, kind of a private alpha or beta going on right now.
Um, so just reach out to me at that handle, at that Twitter handle.
Um, and, uh, if you're not on Twitter, uh, go to, you can, you can throw out an email,
Indie Hub studio at proton.me, just email me there.
Um, and we'll, we'll see if we can get you on the platform and, and I can give you
run some demos and, uh, show people, you know, how, how everything's working.
Fantastic.
That value for value in the independent film world.
I love it.
I can't wait to see it come to fruition.
So, um, all right, buddy, that'll do it.
We'll, uh, let's hang around a little bit.
We'll talk afterwards, but we'll let the music take us out.
But thanks again for coming on.
Sounds great.
This was an absolute pleasure.
It was a great conversation.
I really appreciate it.
A lot of fun.
Zach, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Really appreciate you joining us here for the random power business hour episode 10.
You can find him on Noster as well as Twitter and all of the, uh, socials.
Look for, um, Indie Hub dot studio.
His name is Zach Mahoney.
Um, I really love that conversation.
I, you know, we could have talked about the intersection of art and sociology for hours.
Um, but it's really cool what he is going to develop.
If all of you who love value, their value with respect to music, great.
As soon you're going to start see it with, with respect to film and independent filmmakers.
Um, it's just another great example of how we are on the edge of some major changes
in our society.
And I'm so thankful to be a part of it.
So thanks so much for checking us out.
I hope you had a chance to boost some sats and, uh, since I'm love that way, uh, it is Monday.
So that means on Wednesday, there will be another Phantom Power music hour.
And until then, smile for the mug shot.
See you later.
[Music]