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foreign

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I said in this life, we know a lot of pain, we know a lot of sorrow.

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So I know you're hoping, I'm hoping it's time for evil, better tomorrow.

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Yes, I am because what is the purpose of living in the day when it's in a low?

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I know it's hard to get your head right when everything's so wrong.

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It's like so wrong, yeah.

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When everything's so wrong, yeah.

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Woo!

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Welcome back.

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True North, episode 49.

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the investment grade Bitcoin podcast. We are back. This might be one of the last episodes

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that we do in 2025. We've got a crew here today. We've got myself. We've got Mason.

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We've got Dan Hillary and Ben will join us as well. We've had some technical issues today.

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Oh, wait, there's Ben. Let's add him in. There you go. We've got Ben. He's here.

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And we're going to go through quite a few things. Hopefully we'll be able to do this relatively

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quick. We want to go over Bitcoin Mena. We'll give a summary of what happened there. It'll be myself,

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Mason, and Ben. We're all there. We can talk about it. The macro, just macro environment.

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Dan's done a bunch of research on this front and we can talk through the landscape, what's going on,

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what's going on in the future, what a catalyst look like, where are we? Because there's a lot

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of noise happening right now at the moment. Balance sheet valuations. We'll do a little

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bit of a reflection of where we were a year ago, where we were two years ago to where we are today

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and start to compare not only strategy, but some of the other smaller companies relative to

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the other equities that are trading in the current market. So we can start to think about

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valuations and if some of these things make sense, because in my opinion, some of these things don't

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make a ton of sense relative to the power that some of these companies are holding.

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and yeah we'll see where we go we'll get into the holidays and uh we'll we'll chat we'll chat

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through it and now ben has a camera issue but that's okay all right i'm here i'll get video

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here at some point you're here clear i'm rusty on these you are rusty it's been a while the people

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have missed you well if this is your first time joining this is true north the investment grade

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bitcoin podcast we hear we are here to talk about bitcoin we are here to talk about securitized

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finance, the future of Bitcoin as collateral, and everything that's happening behind the scenes

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in the credit market, the credit landscape relating to these types of instruments,

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and how these things are fitting into the traditional financial ecosystem.

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If this is your first time listening, we've got several people from different backgrounds that

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provide different perspectives. Myself, Dan, Mason, Ben, and the rest of our crew all just

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come from completely different backgrounds and see the world a little bit differently. So good

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conversations on this front and we take a very analytical approach into things and we will get

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into some of those stats and details a little bit later. So without further ado, I'll pass it over

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to Tim or not. Ladies and gentlemen, what you're about to hear may be amazing, but it is not

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financial advice. It's for informational and educational purposes only. Jeff, back to you.

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Perfect. All right. Yeah, none of this is financial advice. We are just really interested

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in everything that's going on here. And we've been following this space incredibly closely.

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So while I wait for Ben to come back on, then we can talk about Bitcoin Mena. I will just start

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with the Ben series in the chat. Oh, there he is. Okay, we got him. Okay, he made it. It's not like

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this is his first time or anything. Okay. So maybe we'll start with Bitcoin meta, just some

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perspectives of traveling to the Middle East, talking about Bitcoin in a completely new location.

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I went to Bitcoin Asia a little bit earlier this year. So I've now gotten perspectives from

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the US conference in Vegas. I went to BTC Asia in Hong Kong, BTC Amsterdam. So I've got the Europe

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perspective and now BTC Meta, which I think was the most unique conference out of all of them,

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just given the general landscape and the capital environment in that area.

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First of all, prior to going to Abu Dhabi and going to the Middle East, I had zero,

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I'd never thought I would ever go to the Middle East ever in my entire life. It has been just a

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blip of desert on a map and I just I've had no desire to go out to the desert I in my mind I

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just thought this is oil and hot and dry why would anybody want to go there and I was completely

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blown away uh Abu Dhabi is one of the most incredible like places I've ever traveled in

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entire life people people said this people have said the same about dubai and i'm looking forward

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to going to do dubai next time i go there i didn't didn't make it there but the first thing i noticed

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in arriving in abu dhabi just generally the architecture was incredible i stopped over in

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qatar the qatar airport was out of this world the abu dhabi airport was incredible and i'm driving

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in and you go past the uh the mosque the grand mosque in abu dhabi and this thing is just like

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this huge cathedral church that is i mean it's absolutely enormous it just dominates the skyline

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you you're driving by it and you could see it from you know a mile two miles away and it's

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dominating everything else around it which was incredible and then additionally all the other

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architecture and Ben and I and Mason even went to one of the museums there and they've got this

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whole cultural area and it's a bunch of these really large uh fancy pieces of architecture

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that are housing different types of museums in different locations and the architecture

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completely incredible the streets were clean Ubers were available everywhere you could go

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the amount of wealth was insane everywhere there's Lamborghinis Rolls Royces Range Rovers

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every driving everywhere i didn't see a single homeless person throughout my entire trip

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um the fact that there's water infrastructure in the entire city just blew me away apparently

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they got like enormous desalination plants everywhere because there's no rivers there's

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no fresh water anywhere um and yeah it was just that part just blew me away and before we even

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get into economics and thinking about just the the cultural and economic aspect i have very little

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desire to ever go back to europe i will be going to the middle east i'll be going to dubai and abu

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to spend more time because it was i i didn't get enough time there so maybe i'll pass it over to

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you guys mason ben and like your guys thoughts before we even get into like the economic part

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yeah i mean all second that i i never thought i would go to the middle east and the second i got

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there i was i was like i don't know enough about this place i need to do some history and what was

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fascinating was um in 1960 abu dhabi was just a pretty simple fishing village this is before they

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found oil they found oil in 1966 and obviously that that place has exploded and and it made me

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uh it made me start thinking about energy right and and the analogies that sailor use uses about

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you know oil refineries uh obviously the the rockefellers and and and the power of uh

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condensed energy in many forms.

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And so that was kind of the way I was viewing the trip going into it.

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And yeah, I mean, this fall has been pretty crazy for me as well.

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I was in Montreal for the Canadian Bitcoin conference.

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I went down to Brazil for SatsConf.

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And then I went to Bitcoin Mena.

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and each one of them was a very unique perspective.

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I will say this one was very finance focused.

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And I think it was during finance week.

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Is that correct?

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So there's a lot of money in the region.

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There's a lot of traditional finance there.

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And I think that came through in the conference

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in that I wouldn't say it was necessarily

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like a maximalist crowd.

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It was maybe people viewing Bitcoin as a part of a diversified portfolio of assets.

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And I think it was a particularly good crowd for products like Bitcoin backed debt.

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And I think that's really why, maybe not why, but Saylor was obviously on a crusade in the Middle East to spread the word of Bitcoin, spread the word of Bitcoin backed debt.

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And I think more than anything, that audience is open to it. And I think we'll go into his talk, but I think that region is looking to pivot, move from oil, physical energy, potentially-

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Liquid. From liquid money to digital money.

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Yeah. And I think that's the pitch he gave them was this region can be the next Switzerland. And that started, you know, I was talking with some folks there. Shout out to the fellow from Saudi Arabia who watches us and came up to me. That was like, what?

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yeah i was like what yeah yeah we've got fans in saudi arabia and kuwait and abu dhabi india yeah

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and but we just started talking about what that region would look like on a bitcoin standard if

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if they adopt digital energy and the the potential there is massive i'll kick it over to you ben

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yeah no i'd echo a lot of what both of you said but what i saw was a region that's in transition

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but doing it from a really unique perspective. I mean, Jeff, I don't know how many times when you

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and I were looking around and you realize that what you're watching is a country be built with

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no debt. This is an entirely debt-free country, huge amount of excess. And now they've been using

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the oil money to really develop themselves. And they're looking at how do they diversify past that

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now? That created a huge amount of wealth. They're looking for what's that next step.

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And a sailor made kind of a funny quote when he was doing,

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I know he did it on the enterprise stage.

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I don't know if he did on the main stage there,

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but he goes, there's a couple of things I've learned

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about the people in this region.

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It's they like technology and they love money.

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And because of that, you know,

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they were uniquely interested in what's happening here,

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particularly in the U.S. markets

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and looking at what's happening with digital credit

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and how they can bring that to their region

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and effectively set themselves up as a banking center.

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And I'm sure we'll talk about this in pretty great depth here in a little bit.

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But part of it is just because they have such unique characteristics

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in the amount of control that they have to get things done.

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Tons of control.

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So that blew my mind.

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Flexibility.

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Flexibility and control.

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And they could act quickly.

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Correct.

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Yep.

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And so getting something done in the U.S.,

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obviously there's a lot of bureaucratic tape.

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And I've spent the better part of this week out talking to governor candidates and congressional candidates and talking about Bitcoin.

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And so you see the amount of friction that there is in the system, which I think is good.

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You need the checks, obviously. I'm pro-USA here. This is my home. This is what I love.

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But when you see a different model, you understand why they can be so effective over there.

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And I think that's why you saw Saylor spend so much energy canvassing that region.

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right every day he was in another part of that region he was talking to the sovereign wealth

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funds he was talking to the banks he was talking to everybody and really taking advantage of that

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time that he had there to show them listen there's this revolution and capital happening right now

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and you guys have the unique structure and the unique capability to stand up the infrastructure

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that the rest of the world is going to use here over the next hundred years and i think that was

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the pitch that he was really starting to make. And my hunch is that resonated quite deeply because

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it's a natural evolution for that region going from, like you said before, a liquid commodity

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to a hard digital commodity here. While you've still got the wealth coming in from all the oil,

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you've still got that supporting everything that you're doing within your country. And now you take

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the next decade to transform yourself into that next layer where you're now a primary finance hub

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for the global economy. And I think that's what you were starting to see. So it was really

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fascinating because the energy was just different. They just viewed things different. And I think

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they do that because they don't have the friction. They know if they choose to move, they can do it.

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And so it's a different type of optimism that you see. So I agree with everything you guys said. We

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had a great time in Abu Dhabi. It was beautiful. It was clean. Everyone spoke English so I could go

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obscure small cafes and no issues and i had a way better time than i expected to you don't know what

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to expect your first time going into those regions but the other thing you reflect back on is you know

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look at where all this brought us right like my gosh who would have ever thought that we started

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talking on the internet late at night on wednesdays and all of a sudden a bunch of us are in abu dhabi

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at these conferences like it's a it's a wild ride you gotta pinch it'll blow your mind it really does

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But it's been a really cool experience.

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Yeah, I think one one interesting comparison and I've I heard these statistics.

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So Ben you hit on apparently that region has no debt I think it very little debt I think they like 20 debt to GDP where the US is like 140 debt to GDP

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So the balance sheet of those countries is like completely flipped to the financial strength side.

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And when you compare it to the US, I mean, just based on what I've observed in the US, there's a lot of strife everywhere.

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But I didn't get that feeling in the Middle East.

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And I even I wouldn't play golf.

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I got around a golf in before I went and got an airplane to take my 24 hour journey home.

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And I got paired up with a couple of local guys.

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And the locals were expats.

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So one was from South Africa.

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The other is from the UK.

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Both of them are primary school teachers.

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So they teach elementary school.

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They both moved their families to Abu Dhabi.

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And they're happier than ever.

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and they were playing golf on like a wednesday afternoon like in december and meanwhile i'm like

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my brain can't compute like what do you mean you moved you moved your entire family here

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and you're you're a elementary school teacher and you're getting by and playing golf i just like

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my i couldn't my brain couldn't compute that being a possibility like if you're in elementary school

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here in the West Coast, like your life is miserable. You can't afford to live. Like you

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probably don't have kids, but you're yet you're teaching kids and let alone getting out and going

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to, you know, play a recreational sport is probably not a thing because you probably have a second job.

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So it was, it was a fascinating perspective on, on the landscape of the area. And additionally,

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the ability to move quickly apparently during COVID when all the lockdowns were happening

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they just they opened their borders they're like everybody come hang out in the Middle East and a

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lot of people fled from like the UK and these different regions and they've just never left

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they like they really enjoy the quality of life and it's that there's money to be made there

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because there's a lot of wealth there and there's jobs and different opportunities everywhere

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also cranes everywhere like cranes absolutely everywhere like the skyline is dominated with

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crazy architecture and just building as far as the eye can see so it was just a very very

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interesting glimpse of what a modern like more of a hard money society could be built like or what

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it could look like backed by prosperity and potentially storing your energy without decay

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like in Bitcoin. So, uh, yeah. Okay. Anyway, let's, uh, let's go on to next topic. I think

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that was a great overview there and maybe let's switch gears and we'll talk a little bit about

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strategy, just statistic update. And then Dan, we'll kick it over to you and go into macro,

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think about macro a little bit, and then we'll look at and think through strategy and this digital

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money concept and everything that's moving on that front, kind of that presentation in Abu Dhabi.

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And we'll go from there. So going to share my screen, and this is what we do nearly every week.

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And I'll put you guys over there on the side. So on this column here, column BS, we're deep in the

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spreadsheet now, calling BS. The date 12, 17, 25, Bitcoin held strategy holds 671,000 Bitcoin,

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Bitcoin price $86,000. MSDR price of 160. Boo, would love to see that go higher, but it is what

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it is. The Bitcoin assets held on the balance sheet, $57 billion. The USD reserve, 1.4 billion.

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Debt, 8.2 billion. Preferred stocks, 7.9 billion. So the net capital held on the balance sheet

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is about $51 billion. If you look at the net capital held on the balance sheet at the beginning

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of 2024, it was $5.7 billion. So a 10X growth in the net capital held on the balance sheet.

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The leverage ratio around 12% and the amplification ratio around 27%. So again,

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balance sheet is incredibly healthy here. Bitcoin price needed for assets to be worth less than the

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debt is 12,000. So there would need to be an 86% drawdown in order for the assets to be less than

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the debt. And that wouldn't trigger a liquidation, like liquidation doesn't exist. The net capital

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would provide 62 years of the PREF dividend payment obligation. So 824 million. That would

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take us to the year 2087 with Bitcoin payments, assuming Bitcoin did not move another dollar

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from here until then. So incredibly healthy. Then I put these two columns in here to showcase a 50%

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drop and a 70% drop from here and what that would look like. And I think this is an interesting

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exercise because even from here, if you were to think about Bitcoin dropping 50% from here,

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going down to 43,000, the leverage ratio on the balance sheet would still only be 23%.

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Still an incredibly healthy balance sheet. And the total amplification would be 53%.

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They would then have 27 years of net capital to cover the dividends, which would take us to the

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year 2052 of dividend coverage if Bitcoin didn't move up another dollar from 43,000.

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So I think this is helpful to look through just continuously understanding the strength of this

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balance sheet. And I'm going to share a clip real quick and do a quick look back

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based on how we got here. This is one of the original Quant Bros. And we'll talk through this.

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This will lay the stage for the next piece here.

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I think that's one thing that the investing community on Twitter or X seems to miss is

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that they think in the future that MicroStrategy will have to sell their assets or sell the

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Bitcoin in order for it to be used or to generate value.

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But in the future, they will be able to use that entire portfolio of assets as collateral to generate cash flow to increase operations and increase revenue and increase future cash flow down the road.

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That pile of assets is not going to be sold.

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It's going to be used as collateral.

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All right.

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So that's where we're at.

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We've got a huge pile of collateral and it's starting to be utilized and we are seeing digital credit expand in front of our eyes.

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And, you know, I think it's helpful to take a look back and see, like, where are we today and where were we back in March of 2024 when we put together that video, that presentation?

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So strategy held 193,000 Bitcoin in March of 2024. And the market cap or the value of that Bitcoin is about $11.9 billion. And the market cap was 18 billion. And the next closest company was Mara and they held about 17,000 Bitcoin. So they had 11 times multiple over and above the next closest competitor that was publicly traded.

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Now, fast forward today, they hold 671,000 Bitcoin. So that's increased about 250%. They've gone from 0.9% of the network to 3.2% of the network. And the next closest publicly traded competitor holds 53,000 Bitcoin. So they have increased the lead over the next closest competitor.

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And the thesis is really unchanged here. Like I liked it then. I still like it now. And I think

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we're really in early innings of the development of this digital credit model and utilizing this

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stuff as collateral. And we'll get into some of the use cases here down the road. And before

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anybody says, well, but the dilution, but the dilution, the shares outstanding have increased

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81% yet the Bitcoin held has increased 248%. I'm happy with this. I'm holding this for the long

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term. This is so deep into my portfolio. It's the furthest thing in my entire portfolio from the

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button. I want to give this the time so it can run its course and we can see what the future of this

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looks like. Again, none of this is financial advice, but this is collateral, right? You've

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got a company that's gone from, you know, $500 million to $58 billion of capital that can be used

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as collateral in different ways. And, you know, we've seen them now at banks. We've seen Sailor

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running around the Middle East at different countries talking to, you know, central banks.

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And this is, we're just getting started. So yeah, I'm happy here. I'm bummed about the stock

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price, but I love the fundamentals. The fundamentals look so much better today than they did in 2024.

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Yeah. I mean, you're going to go on this emotional roller coaster anytime you're building out a new

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industry. And given the volatility that you're going to see in Bitcoin, that's going to play to

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emotions over and over and over again. Right. And what I like about that clip that you played,

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Jeff, given how far back that was, which actually wasn't all that far back. It just feels like it

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now. But, you know, I like I watched it. I'm like, oh, my God, that's your origin story right there.

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Right. And, you know, you look back and that was always kind of the thesis. The thesis was over time,

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you're going to have more optionality for how to deploy Bitcoin without even having to get rid of

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it. The thesis had always been it was going to start getting ingrained in the financial

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institutions. And I remember even in some of our very earliest conversations, you're going,

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just imagine they build this massive stack and they get 1% bank interest on it. What do you think

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Saylor's doing at these banks? This shouldn't be too hard. You don't have to follow that thread

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too far to figure out why they're all talking to them right now. The OCC kind of gave them the air

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cover and you're starting to see the regulations. They just continue to ease. You're starting to see

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more adoption, you're starting to see more global adoption, you're seeing central banks picking up

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Bitcoin, right? The financial institutions are going to want to participate. Because if you don't,

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you got to think about what happens, right? Right now, the way people are using Bitcoin a lot of

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the times is they're using it as an off-ramp from their bank accounts. I no longer want to put my

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savings in a savings account that yields me, you know, 0.1% or 0.2% or 1% even. They're offloading

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that into Bitcoin. So if you're a financial institution and you're seeing capital move

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somewhere else, and that's the capital you depend on to be able to lend, to scale your business,

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over time, as you see it start winning and it becomes a $1 trillion asset and a $2 trillion

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asset and a $5 trillion asset, you want that asset inside your bank. You want to be able to

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provide the services. Now, even at this point, I don't think the banks have clarity in terms of

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what the treatment will be from a balance sheet perspective.

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I think that's probably what they're pushing for,

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to find out if there's a way where if someone's willing to custody their Bitcoin with the bank

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and give them the rights, is there a way for them to deploy that?

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I think that's probably what they're looking at right now.

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But on the path to that, what you want to do is court the largest concentrated position

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you can get your hands on in that strategy.

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so I think we're entering that next phase here where over the next 12 months you start to see

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those services you already know that trading services are coming to the banks right those

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have been announced at several of the major financial institutions so that part's coming

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they're already starting to trade with it which is good but now I think that they're they're

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starting to see that this is happening and they fought it for a long time pretty actively right

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I mean, kudos to JP Morgan for the chaos that they sowed over and over again.

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They did a pretty good job at that.

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But it feels like we're getting to that capitulation point.

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And that's going to open up a huge amount of, one, it's going to bring people who aren't

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deep down the rabbit hole.

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It's going to bring them better capabilities to hold in custody it because they still trust

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the traditional financial institutions.

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It's where all their checking account cash is held.

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It's where most people are going to have their savings account.

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A lot of them have integrated brokerages with their banks.

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And because of that, it's a very familiar place that they've trusted for a long time.

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They're comfortable there.

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So if they can buy Bitcoin through that channel, that's probably what they'll do.

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And now you've got to imagine if there's a way for banks to deploy and use this Bitcoin

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as a part of their balance sheet, and they can actually offer you a yield on it.

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Now you're going to entice people who are even probably very staunchly in the cold storage

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category right now.

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If you've got someone holding a massive amount of Bitcoin and they can just sit at idle in a bank and they'll pay them one or two percent, do you think a lot of people will do that?

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Probably.

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Right.

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Probably.

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And so I think you're starting to see that shift.

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And that's kind of been the thesis here for a while is pile up capital.

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Do this for an extended period of time.

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Remain consistent in that.

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Continue to accumulate.

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and what happens in 20 years when you've got $100 billion, well, that's probably way too low when

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you're talking about strategy, but $200 billion of capital. What can you do with $200 billion of

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capital? You mean $10 trillion? $10 trillion of capital. Sorry. Embarrassed, I guess. But just

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make it a number you can understand. $200 billion of capital. Let's just say that's it, right?

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200 billion. What can you do with 200 billion? Jeff, you track the S&P 500 all the time. How

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many companies in the S&P 500 have market caps higher than 200 billion? Oh, yeah. Like any idea?

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Not many. Yeah, 20 maybe. Yeah. The answer is you can become whatever you want to be. They may not

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need to become anything other than what they're doing now. They're becoming a structured finance

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company. That's what they're becoming right now. But you have that optionality and that optionality

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has value. I don't think it's reflected today, but it's a reality that capital has value in the

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optionality it brings you as an organization. And we don't know what 10 years from now looks like

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for Bitcoin. Look at the infrastructure that's been built since we started doing this. Look at

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all the, like, I think we forget it. Like we need a list of everything that's happened, like the big

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developments that have happened since we just started doing True North. Because it has been so

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fast that

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we're almost not even surprised

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by it anymore. It's totally, it's breakneck

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speed. I remember the days when I thought

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the day that a company gets involved,

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oh my gosh, right? Well, now we've

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got, what, 200

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companies that are involved on

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this. You've got central banks

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that are involved in this You got countries like El Salvador stacking this You got people in Africa spinning up businesses around this It all over Europe now It obviously massive in Japan

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You've got all this regulatory clarity that's come out. You've had banking regulations getting

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rolled back. You've had a tax that came on Bitcoin that then went away. You've got a friendly

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US administration, which I never in a million years thought was going to happen. It's winning.

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Bitcoin is winning. That's what's happening right now. And it's happening so fast that we just look past it at this point. We almost view it now as a foregone conclusion that it's going to win. But when it starts to win and when these regulations pull back and when these businesses get clarity on how they can utilize the asset, that's when the businesses are going to be spun up around this, where they can integrate that asset.

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And that's coming in the next one, two, three, five years.

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And those rails in five years or 10 years are going to be completely unrecognizable from where we are today.

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I believe that deep in my core, that that is what's going to happen here.

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That what happened in the last year is going to feel like nothing happened, even though basically everything we could have asked for has happened now.

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so you know i i keep getting pumped up about all this because even when i've been talking to these

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politicians right and they're all at very different stages of their journey here and some of them come

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in and they're basically you know there to talk to you to tell you how wrong you are and how they

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need to fight against this and then other ones realize that it doesn't necessarily need to be at

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odds with the u.s at all like it can be complimentary it can be a hedge for the united

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It doesn't need to be the core of what the United States is trying to build on because the United States right now has the reserve currency.

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What you're doing is you're protecting against a future where you might not.

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And they're starting to see that, that it's not necessarily an either or.

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It's not like Bitcoin has to win at the expense of the U.S. dollar.

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That's not what needs to happen.

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And so I just every time I have these conversations, I leave when someone seems like they're starting to get it a little bit more.

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and realizing that there's a future that looks pretty bright, even though we're on a bleak path,

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where you can integrate something like Bitcoin in and you can bring massive value creation that you

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can't see today in our current system. You can't conceptualize it from where we're at.

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So, you know, yeah. So anyway, so having a massive amount of capital as a business,

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as a strategy, one, they're going to be on the front edge of every request. Anytime someone's

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thinking about a service, they've got the pool of capital that these businesses are going to want to

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tap into, to utilize, to be able to deploy. So if you're thinking there's anybody out there other

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than strategy that sees with pretty good clarity where this is moving, you'd be wrong. That is the

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targeted pool of capital. You can't go to the ETF providers for capital like this. You can't come

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I'm just deposit this and let you do whatever you want because they've got a whole different

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charter around that ETF, that structure for what they can and cannot do.

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But a business is different.

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An unencumbered business is very, very different.

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World's moving so fast and everything's just like catching up.

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It's like tape delay.

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You've got all of these positive things happened and then humanity needs to get itself in gear

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to actually build on top of that.

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And like that's,

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everybody is building on top

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of all of this positive stuff

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that has happened.

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And it's mind numbing

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how many conversations we've had.

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People coming to us,

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like we're not even going to people.

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People are coming to us

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with business opportunities

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and things that are developing

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on the Bitcoin rails

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and in the Bitcoin ecosystem

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around this environment.

385
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Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

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Dan, I want to get you plugged in here.

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Maybe let's shift to macro for a few moments so we can get some macro landscape.

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Can I jump in there, Mason?

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Go ahead.

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Yeah, I just have one comment.

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It's pretty simple.

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Yeah, so Sailor has been posting all these pictures at different banks, and it got me thinking to a quote he had in 2023 where he said,

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there's three things that need to happen for Bitcoin to go to $5 million. And two of them

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happened in 2024, the Bitcoin spot ETF, and then fair value accounting, the FASB rules.

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And the third one, which he's now actively predicting that's going to happen next year,

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is banks custodian and lending Bitcoin. And I think it's really interesting if you look at

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just kind of price action this year.

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2024 was, you know, parabolic with the catalyst of the ETF

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with potentially fair value accounting.

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You know, you had a flood of companies coming in as well.

401
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And this year, there has been a lot of, you know, general adoption.

402
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But as for big catalysts, maybe not so much.

403
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And I really think, and he's calling his shot,

404
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:30,080
and I think he's actively showing this on X,

405
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is he's going to the banks, he's convincing them,

406
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he's having these conversations, and he's saying,

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it's happening, it's going to happen next year.

408
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And I think that's huge for a few reasons.

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Number one, the incentive to sell Bitcoin, why?

410
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Like, why would you sell it?

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So at the point where you can give it to a bank and take a loan, and potentially the banks are fighting you, fighting each other for your Bitcoin, why would you sell it?

412
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:17,020
Number two, and this is something he said in 2023, which is if you're Apple and you can call up your bank and say, hey, buy $5 billion of Bitcoin and it's simple and it's maybe not, you know, you don't have to go to an exchange or.

413
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:21,120
A new company that you've never worked with before, like a Coinbase or a Cracking.

414
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:21,540
Yes.

415
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,800
You don't have to go interface with that company.

416
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:33,960
no it's it's again it's just another super highway for capital to move into bitcoin and um

417
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:42,300
yeah i i think it's huge and and sailor in many ways has been prophetic about these these changes

418
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:49,860
and i i i truly believe like these three things are foundational for the the next decade

419
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:54,200
and we will build from there.

420
00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:59,840
So I really love that you pulled that clip of capital

421
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,360
because I think we're all starting to think about that.

422
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,180
Like we're seeing them interact with the banks.

423
00:38:05,380 --> 00:38:07,640
We just came from the Middle East.

424
00:38:08,260 --> 00:38:11,340
He's, you know, his thesis for strategies

425
00:38:11,340 --> 00:38:13,280
is more clear than ever

426
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,760
in that they are issuing digital credit

427
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,800
and he's inviting banks to, you know,

428
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:25,800
do do the the customer facing the the actual interactions and they are kind of just the

429
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,700
the dealer of that digital credit for it to be implemented in in many ways and it's not only

430
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:40,980
banks it's it's stable coins it's crypto exchanges etc so i i mean again it's it's more clear than

431
00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:46,340
ever they're they're in a stronger position than ever yet sentiment is at all time lows

432
00:38:46,340 --> 00:38:54,060
And it's simply because Bitcoin has just been in this consolidation range.

433
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,580
Frankly, not much has happened other than positive catalysts.

434
00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:10,000
I will say it's a little weird seeing the disconnect between all the work that's happening behind Bitcoin and the layers being built above it.

435
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,100
So you had Bitcoin, you've got digital credit that's come out.

436
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,860
Now you've got layers being built on top of digital credit.

437
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:24,320
And so, you know, sitting in the seats within organizations, you know, like many of us are, you hear those conversations.

438
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,240
You're hearing about the businesses that are being built.

439
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:34,180
You're hearing the ideas people are coming up with for how to utilize this as a real business idea that has real potential for scale.

440
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:43,700
And so when you go on to X and you see a lot of, you know, doomsday posting and you got a lot of that going on, but you're watching the economy get built behind the scenes.

441
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:48,440
it puts you in this weird spot almost where there's this total disconnect between what

442
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:53,660
you're seeing in your day to day. And you're going, listen, price doesn't always reflect

443
00:39:53,660 --> 00:39:57,640
value, right? I can't remember, was it Munger or one of those guys who said all that price

444
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,780
tells you is the price, right? It doesn't necessarily tell you the value all the time.

445
00:40:01,780 --> 00:40:06,860
I think that's where we're at right now. Obviously, things got incredibly euphoric

446
00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:12,220
at one point. We had our blow off top. Probably the only thing that had a full cycle this time

447
00:40:12,220 --> 00:40:17,960
was the treasury space, right? Bitcoin didn't get its massive blow off top here, but the treasury

448
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:24,520
space seemed to have, but now it's gone the other way. And I think people are discounting

449
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:30,500
the amount of capital and the amount of man hours that are being put into building industry around

450
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:35,500
this, which is going to be incredibly important, right? This is that next level of applications

451
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:39,740
that are getting built on top of all this infrastructure. And it's still incredibly

452
00:40:39,740 --> 00:40:44,880
new infrastructure, right? Bitcoin was the base layer of all this digital credit. There's only

453
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,920
three issuers of digital credit, only two public issuers of digital credit. And so that is still

454
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,620
scaling out. And just the fact of the structure of that security gives you other optionality for

455
00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:00,860
how you're going to be able to utilize this. But now you're hearing everyone building on top of

456
00:41:00,860 --> 00:41:04,880
that layer and how they can utilize digital credit and bring really unique structures out

457
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:12,040
into the market and serve different industries. And so you see what happens with everyone who's

458
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,380
just focusing on the equities market right now and getting really bummed out, which I get,

459
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,740
right? We all think the prices should be way higher than that. This is one of those

460
00:41:20,740 --> 00:41:25,220
massive disconnects in value, probably one of the largest disconnects in value that I've probably

461
00:41:25,220 --> 00:41:31,900
seen personally in a while. But on the other side, you're going, but this, like all of this

462
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:37,320
is happening right now. It's all being built. And it's going to take a little bit of time for this to

463
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:43,420
make it out there and start to scale. But when it does, the areas that it's plugging into the

464
00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:52,020
financial system has massive, massive unlocks for capital that can flow into this. And so to me,

465
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:58,860
it gives me a huge amount of confidence to just be willing to sit and wait on my personal

466
00:41:58,860 --> 00:42:04,620
investments right like i i can see what this potentially looks like in five years which is

467
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:10,780
really where i'm looking out to and i don't see a scenario where this doesn't run what you are

468
00:42:10,780 --> 00:42:16,940
learning is some structures are better than others and i think the market's learning that and even

469
00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:21,820
the companies are learning that and you started to see that recently where you're starting to see

470
00:42:21,820 --> 00:42:26,540
some of the breaks with the maturity risk that can be put onto a lot of these balance sheets

471
00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:49,100
You're starting to see that. And so I think that anyone new that comes into this or anyone who scales or anyone who sheds their maturity based debt products is going to be shifting over likely into this perpetual preferred market just because that gives you an enormous amount of operating flexibility without that bullet maturity pressure that people are going to be watching for.

472
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:53,160
because I think you're even going to start hearing that noise kick up on strategy soon,

473
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:59,840
even though it's so immaterial to that balance sheet. Right. What was it? 8.2 billion,

474
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,640
something like that, Jeff. But right now, only one of those is beyond the conversion price.

475
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:12,620
And that conversion price is like 140. What is it? 149.77. So they're in striking range of having

476
00:43:12,620 --> 00:43:18,240
all of those be below the conversion prices. Now it's completely immaterial because you've seen

477
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:20,080
how much capital they're raising in a week, right?

478
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,120
It's not a problem, but it creates noise and noise gets loud.

479
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:24,940
We've seen that.

480
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,120
And so I'm not thinking that that's not going to become another one of these topics that

481
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,580
becomes really noisy once again, as soon as you start, if things don't turn around,

482
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,480
people will start focusing on the fact that other treasury companies have had issues with

483
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:40,740
maturities they had to manage.

484
00:43:41,420 --> 00:43:43,280
Strategy still has maturities out there.

485
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,100
And if they can't equitize them, what do they do?

486
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,160
You know, well, it might take them four days to raise the money to pay it off, I guess.

487
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,600
but like they'll be fine, right?

488
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:51,660
They're going to be okay.

489
00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:54,060
Yeah. The first put date is 21 months from now.

490
00:43:54,060 --> 00:43:56,300
Exactly. Yeah. It's 2027, right?

491
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:57,660
Yeah. 27, nine.

492
00:43:57,660 --> 00:43:58,060
Yeah.

493
00:43:58,060 --> 00:44:01,640
So one thing interesting you laid out there, Ben,

494
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,480
is that strategy and these other Bitcoin treasury companies

495
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,960
have plugins of capital that they can plug into the economy

496
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,960
in different ways based on how the infrastructure

497
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,160
and everything's being designed around it.

498
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,000
But meanwhile, you look at all of these AI companies

499
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,240
and they're getting all of this investment on a promise.

500
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,380
Now they have to go deliver on the promise.

501
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:27,980
And it's interesting seeing the bifurcation of these multiples

502
00:44:27,980 --> 00:44:31,860
expanding on a promise of an opportunity.

503
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,920
Not to say that AI isn't incredibly valuable.

504
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,980
It's going to change the way the world works and all this other stuff.

505
00:44:36,980 --> 00:44:42,500
But there seems to be, and Mason, you've probably watched this

506
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:43,840
on Jordy Visser's podcast.

507
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,140
like we're going to see a shift into hardware.

508
00:44:48,420 --> 00:44:52,780
Like we've almost reached the maximum capacity of what the software can do.

509
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,860
Now we need more chips and hardware and infrastructure.

510
00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,900
And in order to do that, we need capital, we need money.

511
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,020
And so we're probably going to see a lot of IPOs in 2026 of these companies

512
00:45:03,020 --> 00:45:06,200
that look coming out to raise capital in order to build the hardware,

513
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,080
build the infrastructure and deliver on these promises.

514
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:20,660
And there might be a gap in time between when they what they say they're going to do and when it actually can occur because of all of the hardware that needs to be put into place over time.

515
00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:26,260
So his his thesis, which I love Jordy because he's he's like a meta podcast, right?

516
00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:30,540
He listens to all of these podcasts and he provides you an overview of all the podcasts that he listens to.

517
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,960
And so it's like one source for a ton of information.

518
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:40,580
and uh his he just continues he doesn't bring up strategy all which it which is i think is

519
00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:46,260
fascinating would love to get his take on it but he just hammers on he just hammers on balance sheet

520
00:45:46,260 --> 00:45:51,300
balance sheet balance sheet balance sheets are going to matter in 2026 and it was it was cool

521
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:55,800
hearing him say that because you know these companies are balance sheet companies they have

522
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:03,140
money they have capital and people are looking for capital so dan i gotta get you involved let's do

523
00:46:03,140 --> 00:46:09,980
this let's yeah what's cooking here mason were you referencing the natalie burnell um podcast

524
00:46:09,980 --> 00:46:15,900
that he was on he actually just gave his take on strategy recently oh really burnell episode yeah

525
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:21,140
it was pretty good i mean it's the same layout he thinks like the digital economy if ai is in fact

526
00:46:21,140 --> 00:46:27,120
inflationary which like i think a lot of us believe there was a dylan patel um interview this week

527
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,580
that came out he's essentially arguing that open source models are going to completely take the

528
00:46:31,580 --> 00:46:52,920
market from these kind of big frontier labs And if that the fact the case right like they not going to get a return on these on their investments and multiples will compress across the board And that inflationary environment should theoretically be matched with a deflationary environment should theoretically be matched with a deflationary monetary source

529
00:46:53,220 --> 00:46:54,820
And so like that's where Bitcoin comes in.

530
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:58,420
And then, you know, we already saw the transfer payments to U.S. soldiers.

531
00:46:58,420 --> 00:47:09,000
I don't know if you guys saw that come out today, but U.S. soldiers all got, I think it was $1,667 or something in payments that are already being shipped to all U.S. soldiers.

532
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:11,940
So you're starting to see transfer payments back into the works.

533
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,720
I have a couple of charts of quantitative easing.

534
00:47:14,220 --> 00:47:17,540
This is QE5, which started last Friday.

535
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:25,960
So the thesis around monetary policy and fiscal policy continues to be exactly the same.

536
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,060
And we've been in a period of tightening.

537
00:47:28,420 --> 00:47:30,200
So, yeah, I'll show you my screen, Jeff.

538
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:30,580
That's cool.

539
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:31,900
I have a couple of docs I want to.

540
00:47:31,980 --> 00:47:32,320
Throw it up.

541
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,260
And I think, you know, we should all talk on this doc a little bit.

542
00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:38,780
I'll just give an overview.

543
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:39,960
Can you zoom in a bit?

544
00:47:40,580 --> 00:47:40,960
Yeah.

545
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:41,520
Expand.

546
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:43,820
Enhance.

547
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:44,760
Enhance.

548
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:47,560
That's going to do.

549
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:48,120
There we go.

550
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,840
So the quote is a Hal Finney quote from Bitcoin Talk Forum.

551
00:47:53,980 --> 00:47:57,280
Actually, there's a very good reason for Bitcoin-backed banks to exist,

552
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,720
issuing their own digital cash currency redeemable for Bitcoins.

553
00:48:01,460 --> 00:48:05,700
Bitcoin itself cannot scale to every single financial transaction in the world,

554
00:48:06,220 --> 00:48:08,380
be broadcast to everyone, including in the blockchain.

555
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,680
There needs to be a secondary level of payment systems,

556
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,420
which is lighter weight and more efficient.

557
00:48:12,580 --> 00:48:15,220
Likewise, the timing for Bitcoin transactions to finalize

558
00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:17,940
will be impractical for medium to large value purchases.

559
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,460
Bitcoin-backed banks will solve the problem.

560
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,540
They can work like banks did before nationalization of currency.

561
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:25,660
Different banks can have different policies,

562
00:48:25,660 --> 00:48:31,220
some more aggressive, some more conservative, think leverage ratios. Some would be fractional

563
00:48:31,220 --> 00:48:36,820
reserve while others may be a hundred percent Bitcoin backed. Right now we're, you know,

564
00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:40,900
we're actually, if we're not fractional reserve, we're less than a hundred percent backing.

565
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:48,280
20% of, yeah, not even one-to-one. Interest rates may vary. This is, I mean,

566
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,900
this sentence in itself is quite interesting. You look at the rate on SATA versus stretch,

567
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:58,660
right interest rates may vary cash from some banks may trade at a discount to that from others based

568
00:48:58,660 --> 00:49:04,020
on the collateral they hold essentially um i believe that this will be the ultimate fate of

569
00:49:04,020 --> 00:49:10,340
bitcoin to be high powered money this was used in sailor speech at bitcoin mana that serves as

570
00:49:10,340 --> 00:49:14,900
a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash most bitcoin transactions will occur

571
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:20,820
between banks think atm issuance buying of bitcoin to settle net transfers bitcoin transactions by

572
00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:24,420
private individuals will be as rare as well. Bitcoin-based purchases are today.

573
00:49:25,540 --> 00:49:28,260
So, I mean, this I think is an uncanny

574
00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:32,260
relative to exactly what's going on in the market right now, right?

575
00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:39,620
This idea of cash issued by banks is effectively what Saylor has created and what you guys have

576
00:49:39,620 --> 00:49:48,180
created with these kind of digital credit stabilized, you know, floating interest rate

577
00:49:48,180 --> 00:49:51,380
notes preferred products so love to get your take there guys

578
00:49:53,620 --> 00:50:03,220
yeah absolutely and the so effectively what we're seeing is that the like strategy is issuing

579
00:50:03,220 --> 00:50:11,300
digital credit and digital credit can be almost effectively the engine that powers a a stable

580
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:19,180
like a high yield money supply. And that's what, uh, that's what the sailor had talked about on

581
00:50:19,180 --> 00:50:24,560
stage of Bitcoin men. I think it's a really fascinating concept. Like, um, right now,

582
00:50:24,660 --> 00:50:32,160
for example, stretch has a volatility of something like seven. So it's difficult if you wanted to use

583
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:41,920
it in payments because there's volatility. Okay. Well, it also has a 10.75% yield, which is so much

584
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:48,540
better than anything else in the market. I've got room. I've got like excess yield where I can

585
00:50:48,540 --> 00:50:55,600
take some of that yield off the top and manage the risk associated with stabilizing the volatility.

586
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:02,420
just effectively what strategy is doing with Bitcoin, you know, taking a 50 vol asset and

587
00:51:02,420 --> 00:51:08,000
turning it into a seven vol asset with digital credit. Somebody can take digital credit and turn

588
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:13,080
it from a seven vol asset into a zero vol asset. And that could be done with a large balance sheet

589
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:21,200
from an institutional bank. This is the iPhone moment, right? This is, you have an iPhone and

590
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:27,280
you have an application on your iPhone. You have Venmo, you have PayPal, you have Instagram.

591
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:35,000
These are all applications that were built on a platform. Digital credit is a platform

592
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:42,880
that can be built upon. And I think that's kind of what's come through here with this quote from

593
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:49,800
Hal Finney, but also what it was very clear in what strategy and Saylor were presenting in Bitcoin

594
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:56,820
a minute totally agree yeah i mean i have a little bit of a different perspective because

595
00:51:56,820 --> 00:52:05,200
i do see a world in which um people are transacting peer-to-peer with layer twos like

596
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:15,840
the lightning what lightning network but um yeah i i mean i i i see what i see these

597
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:22,980
preferred their Bitcoin-backed debt as just a way of easing people into the benefits of Bitcoin

598
00:52:22,980 --> 00:52:32,040
and stripping the volatility and allowing very smart companies who want Bitcoin to

599
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:40,440
execute this trade at scale, which is short fiat, long Bitcoin.

600
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:55,220
So I think it's interesting. And today, Dan and I were talking about the end game of like, if you believe in Bitcoin backed debt, why would you ever buy a treasury?

601
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:03,280
What happens there? But I think at this point right now, they're not even in the same market.

602
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:18,080
I think sailors stated that what Bitcoin backed debt is competing against is junk bonds or private credit or just shitty corporate bonds at this point.

603
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:25,860
Yeah, high yield credit, which is a bit different than being like a transactional layer.

604
00:53:25,860 --> 00:53:30,120
And I really like this slide and I screenshotted this.

605
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,640
And this is something that I think would be discussed at a bank, right?

606
00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:41,080
If you've got a company that's got a very large balance sheet, you can start to offer

607
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:47,760
very attractive savings products that are powered by digital credit.

608
00:53:49,140 --> 00:53:52,720
So on the left-hand side, you see the asset side, right?

609
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:54,560
You've got the orange bar, which is digital credit.

610
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:59,180
You've got a currency, so that red block, let's just assume that's a money market fund.

611
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,580
And then you've got a cash reserve, something that sits on top of it.

612
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,500
So if your liabilities are over on the right-hand side, that green bar, you've got some excess

613
00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:14,600
buffer where you can mitigate the volatility of the digital credit instruments.

614
00:54:14,820 --> 00:54:20,320
I think they're going to try to get that volatility as possible, and maybe he'll be successful

615
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:20,640
in that.

616
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:31,800
But I think that there's going to need to be some risk taking that occurs behind the scenes to offer attractive products.

617
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,420
So for example, I have a bank account.

618
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:41,560
The current rate on my savings in my bank account is like 0.01%.

619
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:49,580
A bank can now offer me 4% if they have some infrastructure like this.

620
00:54:49,580 --> 00:54:55,240
They can now offer me just greater than they can offer me to, uh, if they offered me, if

621
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:57,420
a bank offered me for, maybe I'd move my savings.

622
00:54:58,580 --> 00:55:01,740
Um, or, you know, I believe in stretch, so I'm fine with that.

623
00:55:01,740 --> 00:55:04,760
But, you know, if you interface with JP Morgan and all of a sudden they come out and they're

624
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:10,860
offering 4%, uh, 4% savings account.

625
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,340
And they have some infrastructure that's sitting behind it and they're taking on the risk of

626
00:55:17,340 --> 00:55:23,200
delivering you that 4%, but they understand that stretch is going to give them 10 points,

627
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:29,500
you know, 10.75. They got a buffer with the currency, the money market, the money market

628
00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:34,780
fund, and they got a cash reserve on top of that. They're fine because they have a buffer in that

629
00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:41,200
risk that they're taking. So I think this is a very attractive opportunity to

630
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:48,940
offer a high powered savings account backed by some of this stuff.

631
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:55,580
Yeah, I think he's swinging for the big idea, obviously, right? When he was pitching this at

632
00:55:55,580 --> 00:56:00,560
MENA, he had the big idea, the biggest, bigger, biggest, bigger idea and the biggest idea. And

633
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:05,900
this was the biggest idea. And I think it is because he's, he's targeting this effectively

634
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:11,880
on a nation state level, right? He's not suggesting that a community bank go try to put the structure

635
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:18,280
in place and offer bank accounts, right? He's trying to say, listen, for, we'll just use the

636
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:22,680
UAE as the example here, right? So when he's out here talking to Abu Dhabi, he's going, you guys

637
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:29,360
have control of a country. I don't have control of a country. You have a bank that you own. I don't

638
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:35,640
have a bank that I own. You have influence over the regulations and the policies within your country.

639
00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:41,960
Great. You have a sovereign wealth fund for your country. Great. With that recipe, you can build

640
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:49,000
this model. You can build the fund within your borders that backs this idea for a digital bank.

641
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:56,080
And it's a really massive idea that he threw out there. And it is unique, I think, to that region

642
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:01,720
largely, because I don't think a lot of other countries have that type of control. But that

643
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:08,700
That being said, this type of a model that he's displaying here is going to funnel down

644
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:10,720
to smaller applications.

645
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:11,720
Like one of the things that I've-

646
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:13,720
Hundreds, hundreds, thousands.

647
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:19,600
Like the state level is thinking about how you can work digital credit into revenue bonds

648
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:24,520
and start finding ways to generate additional capital for the state where you can now offset

649
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,960
things like property taxes.

650
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,640
You can do property tax cuts, but you can offset that revenue with these revenue bonds

651
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:36,740
where maybe you're paying seven and a half, you're getting 10 and a half on a blend and you've got a

652
00:57:36,740 --> 00:57:41,440
1% cost and you're collecting the net revenue out of that spread at the state level and continuing

653
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,160
to fill the coffers, right? Like there's ideas for how you can integrate these and that's just

654
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,340
one, but there's a ton of ideas. And so this digital credit layer on top of this, when you

655
00:57:50,340 --> 00:57:55,220
strip out, you know, the volatility and a lot of the risk profile opens up a huge amount of

656
00:57:55,220 --> 00:58:00,360
applications, people will be more comfortable implementing on a short timeframe. Yeah.

657
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,080
And ultimately, Bitcoin will become a part of all of this, right, natively.

658
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:15,720
But in the early days, it's a lot easier to go sell a committee using securities than it is this commodity that they're unfamiliar with.

659
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,620
They all understand what a fixed income product is.

660
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:19,140
Totally.

661
00:58:19,420 --> 00:58:20,640
Right. That makes sense to them.

662
00:58:21,260 --> 00:58:23,100
They can underwrite the risk on the company.

663
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:26,520
You still have to underwrite, you know, the Bitcoin risk at the balance sheet level.

664
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:43,740
But if the state was going to do something like this, they're effectively creating their own policies for the strength the company would need to be at in order to be included in something like a revenue bond at a state level, where they would say the company would have to be three to one over collateralized, blah, blah, blah.

665
00:58:43,860 --> 00:58:44,020
Right.

666
00:58:44,060 --> 00:58:47,540
But all the whatever conditions you want so they can have control.

667
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:52,900
So there's a huge amount of applications that you're going to be able to bring to market with this.

668
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:57,480
and the one that sailor pitched, which is effectively, Hey, you want to recreate,

669
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:02,820
you know, the Swiss banking system in a digital age. Here's a way that you can do that. And you

670
00:59:02,820 --> 00:59:07,980
can attract capital, you know, from sovereigns, from massive corporations, from high net worth

671
00:59:07,980 --> 00:59:11,560
individuals, because you'll be able to offer them 8% everywhere else. They're going to get

672
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:16,780
sub five. Right. And that's a massive idea to attract trillions of dollars of capital into your

673
00:59:16,780 --> 00:59:26,200
borders. Yeah. Huge. And this, this, I, this idea is so massive and you said maybe a community bank's

674
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:30,960
not going to do it, but why not? Like a community bank could, could also run some similar type

675
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:38,800
infrastructure and the, the, the people that integrate this stuff are going to succeed and

676
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:45,420
prosper more than their peers. And then the question is going to be like, well, why are,

677
00:59:45,420 --> 00:59:52,540
why are those companies prospering more than my why is insurance company a you know running a

678
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:59,020
95 combined ratio when all the other insurance companies are running a 101

679
00:59:59,980 --> 01:00:05,100
what are they doing like we all have the same underwriting algorithms like it's the balance

680
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:10,300
sheet that's performing better okay so what are they doing differently for all 80 20 bonds and

681
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:15,940
equities. It's like, well, we actually have this high performance digital credit on our balance

682
01:00:15,940 --> 01:00:26,000
sheet. And that success starts to snowball and it gets integrated in many places. And I think it's

683
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:31,660
going to take some time, but there might be infrastructure behind the scenes in the future

684
01:00:31,660 --> 01:00:36,300
where we don't even know this stuff is plugged in. Yeah. I think the limitation that you see

685
01:00:36,300 --> 01:00:39,920
within the U.S. when you're talking about is that they would need to relax

686
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,420
the requirements for how much you're allowed to hold on the balance sheet.

687
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:49,100
So like right now, it's an incredibly small percentage that a bank would be able to hold

688
01:00:49,100 --> 01:00:54,420
in these types of equities. Unrated. And so you can't, yeah. And so you can't

689
01:00:54,420 --> 01:01:00,820
really get that full benefit. Yeah, 100%. Having even like a, say you had a five or a 10%

690
01:01:00,820 --> 01:01:05,420
position, maybe it's only aligned to one specific product, right? They might be able to charge a

691
01:01:05,420 --> 01:01:09,020
higher annual fee on this type of account because we're going to give you a higher yield because

692
01:01:09,020 --> 01:01:14,260
that's the one that's tied to this asset blah blah blah but so i think there will be ways to do it

693
01:01:14,260 --> 01:01:20,300
but those types of regulations would need to be removed or relaxed first yeah i think that would

694
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:26,140
be the main hurdle and it's not a big one but i think there's going to be a huge amount particularly

695
01:01:26,140 --> 01:01:31,480
given the weakness that we had you know within recent memory in the banking system even though

696
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:37,040
it was a while ago, you know, people are going to be hesitant to relax regulations on banks,

697
01:01:37,380 --> 01:01:42,440
particularly when it comes to opening up and allowing, you know, Bitcoin or Bitcoin derivatives

698
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,020
to make its way in there. Have you heard of mortgage-backed securities? Yeah, we're doing it

699
01:01:46,020 --> 01:01:57,020
with Bitcoin. No income, no job approved. You know, it's close. Do you guys see the Besson quote

700
01:01:57,020 --> 01:02:03,420
from today. These 2008, 2009, 2010 financial rules were too tight. They hamstrung the American

701
01:02:03,420 --> 01:02:07,060
financial system. It was time for a change. We're going to be safe, smart, and sound

702
01:02:07,060 --> 01:02:09,080
in terms of our deregulation.

703
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:13,680
but we we have to take the financial system out of the straight jacket this substantial increase

704
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,720
in private credit which is outside of the regulated banking system that tells me the

705
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:21,040
regulation regulated system is too constrained so they're doing exactly as you said

706
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,680
i think training wheels wow let it spin let it go

707
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:33,280
what yeah something i was thinking about was you know we've had conversations about what are the

708
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:40,080
the company is most likely to add Bitcoin to their balance sheet or go on a Bitcoin standard.

709
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:47,200
And it's these founder-led majority stakeholder companies. And the same thing is true with

710
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:52,320
countries, right? If you have a majority shareholder country or some kind of monarchy,

711
01:02:53,520 --> 01:03:00,560
they can implement this so much faster and without the bureaucratic headache or red tape that

712
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:06,960
otherwise would be there and if they do do this the the first mover advantage like sailor is

713
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:13,040
absolutely right if they listen to him they will be set up for you know it will be the next global

714
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:23,120
financial head hub generational reigns yeah like for for centuries yes yeah everybody will want to

715
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:31,700
to do business there, it'll be the Switzerland of the new world. And I think Bahrain is already

716
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:36,940
kind of treated like the Switzerland of the new world. A lot of the UAE companies set up in Bahrain

717
01:03:36,940 --> 01:03:42,880
because they're like a little bit more flexible and a little bit easier to do business there.

718
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:50,380
So, you know, it doesn't take much. And just knowing that there's all of these regulatory

719
01:03:50,380 --> 01:03:55,320
hurdles in the way elsewhere, like in the United States, like these companies, these countries can

720
01:03:55,320 --> 01:04:04,980
get so far ahead so quickly. Yeah. Oh man. These are really big ideas. And meanwhile, you know,

721
01:04:05,020 --> 01:04:09,140
Ben's having conversations with somebody that's like, how do I buy a Bitcoin? You know, it's like,

722
01:04:09,140 --> 01:04:14,320
how much time do you have? I need to update you of like how far along this entire industry is.

723
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,440
It's like a $2 trillion industry, but you know, there's all this other stuff that's happened in

724
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,640
the last two years and you should probably be aware of all of it and here's where we're at.

725
01:04:22,020 --> 01:04:28,120
It's really interesting though and I am not a politics guy right and I'm sure that comes across

726
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,560
when I'm talking to some of these guys that I've got to speak on like what's going on but

727
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:38,380
when you're having those conversations it's an interesting balance because you're really

728
01:04:38,380 --> 01:04:44,820
balancing the desire for sovereignty at the individual level and the ability to protect

729
01:04:44,820 --> 01:04:49,380
yourself and not have them come after you because you choose this asset you choose to hold it this

730
01:04:49,380 --> 01:04:54,180
way right so there's one aspect where you want to say what i really need from you is to get out of

731
01:04:54,180 --> 01:05:00,180
the way right just don't be an adversary that would be enough in a lot of states don't become

732
01:05:00,180 --> 01:05:06,260
an adversary but then the second layer is you've got to start thinking creatively about how in their

733
01:05:06,260 --> 01:05:12,580
position how does this benefit them and the agenda that they're trying to push forward right how can

734
01:05:12,580 --> 01:05:18,480
can you integrate some of these solutions where it becomes a positive output or impact at the state

735
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:24,240
level, at the federal level, where it puts them on a trajectory where they can make some real change,

736
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:28,400
which is why when you find ways where you can potentially generate additional state-level

737
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:34,540
revenue, that has a long-term compounding ripple effect if they can pull it off. And so you can

738
01:05:34,540 --> 01:05:39,760
kind of help to paint a vision for why incorporating this and taking the bold move to be one of the

739
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:44,880
first movers to try to do something novel and unique on the back of an emerging but not small

740
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:50,340
industry, right? This is still a $1.8 trillion asset right now, right? It's hardly this obscure

741
01:05:50,340 --> 01:05:57,200
thing anymore. You know, some of these politicians that are really looking for ways to make change

742
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,820
and to nudge the course in a different direction, because states have the same problem a lot of

743
01:06:01,820 --> 01:06:07,840
individuals do. States don't control the currency. So they're the recipient of the outcome of the

744
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:13,740
monetary policy. So they also have to look at ways to protect. And what you're trying to do

745
01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:20,620
is come up with as many ways as possible to make sure that value and wealth is retained within your

746
01:06:20,620 --> 01:06:26,120
state. You don't want capital flight. You want companies to want to domicile there. You want to

747
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:30,740
bring products that you can bring that generate the revenue that the state needs to do the

748
01:06:30,740 --> 01:06:35,500
infrastructure projects to make it a desirable place to live. They're looking for a lot of those

749
01:06:35,500 --> 01:06:41,080
solutions. And so you can't just go hit them over the head with, you know, government's bad

750
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:45,060
and the Fed, right? Like that, that's not the way to talk to these guys. You've got to,

751
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:50,560
you've got to work Bitcoin in as productive solutions that they can grasp. They could see

752
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:55,260
a tangible benefit to, and then ultimately they can stamp their name to as someone who pushed

753
01:06:55,260 --> 01:06:59,360
something novel forward that made a difference. Yeah. You don't need to teach them how to split

754
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:06,140
the atom no you just need to teach him how to plug in i got two hours with him i'm not gonna

755
01:07:06,140 --> 01:07:11,140
you know walk through setting up the multi-sig and you know like no it's not gonna happen

756
01:07:11,140 --> 01:07:16,740
right right it's tricky this is complex stuff and i mean

757
01:07:16,740 --> 01:07:26,360
yeah especially you see if if you if you just think everything's crypto you just type in crypto

758
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:32,400
and you see the DGENs online that are, you know, max leveraging on hyper liquid at 50 X and getting

759
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:37,300
liquidated. And, you know, all of the videos of people wanting to throw themselves off the

760
01:07:37,300 --> 01:07:45,560
balcony is what gets all the views. So you're like, it's easy to get lost in crypto and say,

761
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:50,020
like, this is just bad. Like, I don't, I don't want to do any of this, but the Bitcoin conversation

762
01:07:50,020 --> 01:07:54,020
is fundamentally different. Yeah. But I think you got to look at the asset and you have to

763
01:07:54,020 --> 01:07:58,840
acknowledge this is kind of v1 of how it enters the markets and the first thing that's always

764
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:04,740
going to happen in an asset like that is who's going to show up the trading firms right because

765
01:08:04,740 --> 01:08:09,540
it's not big enough that it's not susceptible to being moved around with large amounts of capital

766
01:08:09,540 --> 01:08:15,020
it's still got the adoption curve in front of it so you've got this long growth trajectory so it

767
01:08:15,020 --> 01:08:18,760
gives them this avenue to trade it was the same thing that happened with the convertible bonds

768
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:23,620
with strategy and how all of a sudden those were you know the largest convertible bonds being

769
01:08:23,620 --> 01:08:28,480
issued and they were the ones that were the most competitive with the best terms that the company

770
01:08:28,480 --> 01:08:33,360
was able to get was because it was a unique and novel structure on the back of a really volatile

771
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:39,700
asset. Volatility is really valuable from a trader's seat. And because of that, they're going

772
01:08:39,700 --> 01:08:46,080
to use that volatility as much as they can. And I think now you're seeing it get almost overused

773
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:50,320
at this point. I think there's so many people harvesting volatility right now that it's just

774
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:55,560
sort of throw in a wet blanket over top of it. But as that volatility starts to draw down on a

775
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,260
temporary period of time, the incentive shifts, and that's no longer the trade, and that'll take

776
01:08:59,260 --> 01:09:04,980
that pressure off of it. And then I think you see Bitcoin reset higher again. But you're in this

777
01:09:04,980 --> 01:09:10,580
first phase where when people look at it, they go, is the real utility of this asset that it's

778
01:09:10,580 --> 01:09:16,920
great for trading right now? And you go, in the early days, kind of, when you're getting into the

779
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:22,220
traditional financial markets. That's what most of the capital is looking to do. It's looking for a

780
01:09:22,220 --> 01:09:30,080
home to generate returns. And when Bitcoin made its way to Wall Street, their eyes lit up because

781
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:34,940
it moves like crazy. They can do all kinds of trades. I'm sure there's all kinds of shenanigans

782
01:09:34,940 --> 01:09:39,260
to nudge price and incentivize it. And we see all of a sudden you've got one week where

783
01:09:39,260 --> 01:09:45,100
now Zcash is the hedge against Bitcoin for some weird reason. And then one week later,

784
01:09:45,100 --> 01:09:47,640
You've never heard about Zcash again, right?

785
01:09:47,660 --> 01:09:48,740
Like these narratives come out.

786
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:54,080
And so it gets caught in that environment for a little bit, but then it reaches the escape

787
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:58,260
velocity because you start to create these products that are more broadly applicable,

788
01:09:58,260 --> 01:10:01,000
that are getting into the credit markets that become more systemic.

789
01:10:01,700 --> 01:10:06,380
And then it starts to really ingrain the asset and the derivatives around the asset into

790
01:10:06,380 --> 01:10:07,060
the economy.

791
01:10:07,340 --> 01:10:09,100
And that's a massive shift.

792
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,340
You know, that's the zero to one moment for an asset like Bitcoin.

793
01:10:13,340 --> 01:10:28,920
And I think you're starting to see that. And I think in people's mind, when they start to understand these types of products and these types of services that are going to get built around them, that's when it starts to become real to them. Because I think right now they just see Bitcoin and then the next word in their mind is speculative.

794
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:35,680
right it's a speculative asset everyone told you that forever right people just speculate on it it's

795
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:40,140
a get rich quick scheme you know like that was the narrative that was out there forever and now

796
01:10:40,140 --> 01:10:46,320
you're starting to see structured products tailor-made to solve problems real people have

797
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:53,660
you know what problem every person has the ability to make more money and if i've got idle money and

798
01:10:53,660 --> 01:10:59,060
I can park idle money in something yielding 10% or 12% or whatever it is versus the 2%

799
01:10:59,060 --> 01:11:03,980
and I compound that difference out over 10 years, that's a massive difference in position

800
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:05,220
at the end of 10 years.

801
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:11,480
So like now you're taking, yes, that volatility is really attractive and it still can be used

802
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:14,560
for trading and the big institutions can continue to use it.

803
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,800
But now we can harness it a different way where it becomes really applicable to you

804
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:23,160
as someone who's managing a personal, your personal treasury, your corporate treasury,

805
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:27,640
whatever it may be, it's starting to evolve. And that's when you're going to start to see it

806
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,200
really get ingrained in the system. People are going to start to understand that there's value

807
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:37,880
to it beyond what they've heard about people, you know, YOLOing their weekly paycheck and

808
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:48,440
things trying to get rich in the crypto ecosystem. Yeah, there's... Go ahead, Mason, you got something?

809
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:50,040
I was wondering if Dan had anything else.

810
01:11:51,620 --> 01:11:53,940
We kind of got derailed.

811
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:57,040
No, I think that was a good convo.

812
01:11:59,620 --> 01:12:01,520
One other thing I want to hit on is,

813
01:12:01,860 --> 01:12:03,860
and I was chatting with my buddy earlier today.

814
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:04,640
He called me.

815
01:12:04,740 --> 01:12:06,100
He was like, what's going on with MicroStrategy?

816
01:12:06,940 --> 01:12:11,480
And we were talking about valuation concepts of,

817
01:12:11,940 --> 01:12:13,560
at different points in time, it's high,

818
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:14,800
at different points in time, it's low.

819
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,040
And he actually runs his own small business.

820
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:20,580
And I was talking to him. I'm like, okay,

821
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,780
what if your business was marked to market every day, 24 seven.

822
01:12:25,020 --> 01:12:28,320
And some days your business would be valued at $0.

823
01:12:28,660 --> 01:12:30,380
And he chuckled, like he couldn't stop laughing.

824
01:12:30,460 --> 01:12:31,440
And he's like, absolutely.

825
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:34,620
Like my business would some days be valued at zero and some days it'd be

826
01:12:34,620 --> 01:12:37,080
valued at a billion. You'd think like, you know,

827
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:42,320
like your company is going to be around forever. And that,

828
01:12:42,380 --> 01:12:46,440
that concept was a pretty eyeopening for him. You've got this, like,

829
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:52,840
you've got this infrastructure that's just marked market every day, 24 seven, you know,

830
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:59,740
like what it's worth, like in the market, what the value of the equity is worth in the market,

831
01:12:59,740 --> 01:13:04,860
but the true value of like the infrastructure and the vehicle and everything that's building,

832
01:13:04,860 --> 01:13:10,080
you can still have a different perspective on what that's valued at into the future.

833
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:14,680
And I think it's helpful to just continuously compare these to the rest of the market and

834
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:18,340
everything else that's out there. This is why I continuously look at it every single day.

835
01:13:19,340 --> 01:13:27,820
You know, strategy being what's like the 220th largest company in the US stock market. It's

836
01:13:27,820 --> 01:13:36,540
probably like 500th in the global stock market. And yet they have more Bitcoin than the entire

837
01:13:36,540 --> 01:13:47,100
mag seven combined multiplied by like 30. And so if we really think this is a true store of value

838
01:13:47,100 --> 01:13:52,620
and other companies will start to adopt even small bits of this as a store of value, as banking

839
01:13:52,620 --> 01:13:59,340
infrastructure gets built, et cetera, they're going to have a tough time catching up and storing

840
01:13:59,340 --> 01:14:04,800
their value. If they start to become a little bit more balance sheet companies as opposed to cash

841
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:13,800
What do you guys think of them buying Bitcoin aggressively down here at these MNOWs?

842
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:24,800
And I'll preface this by the first chart that Jeff showed of the distribution rate of Bitcoin.

843
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:25,800
Can you pull it up?

844
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:26,800
Yeah.

845
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:27,360
Yeah.

846
01:14:29,940 --> 01:14:34,420
I think it's interesting to look at, right?

847
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:39,680
Strategy right now has 670,000 Bitcoin, right?

848
01:14:40,620 --> 01:14:54,180
And if you zoom in there, the remaining Bitcoin supply unmind, yeah, in 2028 is 800,000.

849
01:14:54,180 --> 01:15:01,280
So for the rest of eternity, the amount of Bitcoin to be mined is $800,000.

850
01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:09,460
And if I was a betting man, I would guess that strategy has more than $800,000 Bitcoin by then.

851
01:15:09,980 --> 01:15:12,940
And what does that actually mean?

852
01:15:15,660 --> 01:15:17,120
That's what I've been pondering.

853
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:21,620
But back to my original question, what do you guys think about them adding down here?

854
01:15:24,180 --> 01:15:57,402
I think it a really good tactic because I mean during 2022 and 2023 I was talking to Dylan and he was saying like we all forget that they were hitting the ATM during 2022 and 2023 to buy Bitcoin at like technically sub MNAVs but like it was more complicated because the enterprise value mattered a lot at those lower valuations So like this isn something that you know unheard of But then two like you actually have a lot less MNAV collapse risk down here

855
01:15:57,402 --> 01:16:03,082
So if the market's buying it under a dollar, I'm sorry, under one MNAV, why not?

856
01:16:03,082 --> 01:16:09,002
Like the big institutions, the big players, why not have and there's massive liquidity in the equity.

857
01:16:09,002 --> 01:16:14,422
Why not put a huge bid on Bitcoin while it's low, expand your collateral base?

858
01:16:14,982 --> 01:16:16,622
You know, it's healthy for the Bitcoin market.

859
01:16:17,122 --> 01:16:20,282
Use the liquidity and volume which you've developed in your equity.

860
01:16:20,442 --> 01:16:30,062
And then all the while, expand your capital stack in your collateral base so you can issue more press in the future when and as demand continues to increase.

861
01:16:30,242 --> 01:16:38,482
So I don't think it's detrimental in any way, shape or form, unless like, you know, they were doing it at MNAP's sub 0.9 or something like that.

862
01:16:39,002 --> 01:16:44,002
Yeah, I would agree with that. I'll say that I was a little surprised at the scale.

863
01:16:44,002 --> 01:16:45,002
Me too.

864
01:16:45,002 --> 01:16:48,002
I mean, that definitely caught me off guard.

865
01:16:48,002 --> 01:16:51,002
Somebody tapped me in the shoulder and Abu Dhabi like, hey, strategy is about 10,000 Bitcoin.

866
01:16:51,002 --> 01:16:52,002
I was like, what?

867
01:16:52,002 --> 01:16:53,002
Yeah, yeah.

868
01:16:53,002 --> 01:16:54,002
Where?

869
01:16:54,002 --> 01:16:55,002
10,000.

870
01:16:55,002 --> 01:17:00,002
Someone asked me how, like, they were like, oh, what's your guess? What's your guess?

871
01:17:00,002 --> 01:17:06,002
I was like, maybe like 100. And then it was 10,000. I was like, I feel like an idiot.

872
01:17:06,002 --> 01:17:27,122
Yeah. And now you get the speculation running, right? Like, does he know something? And so he's trying to, to Dan's point, expand that collateral base while it's effectively a neutral raising tactic at the moment, right? Obviously, they still have a positive MNAV from an enterprise value perspective. But I think what a lot of people are focusing in on right now is the market cap relative to the Bitcoin NAV.

873
01:17:27,122 --> 01:17:33,002
But I think Dan probably nailed it.

874
01:17:33,102 --> 01:17:42,522
I think it is more of a play on expanding that collateral base at this point in time while you've got the advantageous prices and you build that balance sheet.

875
01:17:42,582 --> 01:17:52,542
It's going to give you massive capacity to be able to raise through the preps in the future so you can really put the gas on here, particularly if they're having conversations where they're getting massive demand.

876
01:17:52,542 --> 01:18:03,402
And I mean, one thing that can happen with these that I don't think a lot of people really understand in the background for how this stuff can work is people can just reach out to you asking for massive chunks of a security.

877
01:18:04,082 --> 01:18:04,202
Yeah.

878
01:18:04,422 --> 01:18:05,742
It's called a reverse inquiry.

879
01:18:05,742 --> 01:18:10,262
And they just come to you and someone could go to strategy and go, I want a billion dollars of stretch.

880
01:18:11,422 --> 01:18:14,442
And they'll say, you know, what pricing they're willing to take it at.

881
01:18:14,582 --> 01:18:16,362
And strategy can decide yes or no.

882
01:18:16,362 --> 01:18:20,962
and so it's possible that they get a huge amount of demand for that for some massive block

883
01:18:20,962 --> 01:18:25,982
that would have to come into discount which they don't really do right that's not really their

884
01:18:25,982 --> 01:18:30,462
their game i don't think it doesn't seem like they do much of that you're not seeing it shown

885
01:18:30,462 --> 01:18:36,282
in the figure so i think it's just pure atm market price what they're doing but i wouldn't be

886
01:18:36,282 --> 01:18:43,002
surprised if they're starting to see that type of demand come through and if it is then they know

887
01:18:43,002 --> 01:18:46,242
that they're going to have the capacity to issue a significant amount of the prefs.

888
01:18:46,242 --> 01:18:48,442
And so at this phase, they want to scale up.

889
01:18:48,442 --> 01:18:53,882
And then any increase in Bitcoin is going to expand that balance sheet in a massive way

890
01:18:53,882 --> 01:18:56,322
and give them huge capacity to put amplification on.

891
01:18:56,382 --> 01:19:00,302
So it puts them in a better spot here in the future to keep this rolling in a big way.

892
01:19:00,422 --> 01:19:02,862
So that would make sense to me.

893
01:19:04,322 --> 01:19:06,622
And it could also come in on the common equity as well.

894
01:19:07,002 --> 01:19:09,182
Blocks can come in at any time.

895
01:19:09,522 --> 01:19:09,662
Yeah.

896
01:19:09,862 --> 01:19:12,462
And they may not want it to hit the tape.

897
01:19:12,462 --> 01:19:15,302
they wanted to happen behind the scenes, whether it be a block,

898
01:19:15,462 --> 01:19:19,842
dark pools or somebody, you know, wanting to rebalance their,

899
01:19:19,842 --> 01:19:26,042
their exposure in a ETF or something like that.

900
01:19:26,262 --> 01:19:28,622
So yeah, keep going. Go ahead.

901
01:19:28,762 --> 01:19:30,962
So they might've just got the order is what you're saying.

902
01:19:30,962 --> 01:19:35,882
Like that, that abnormally large purchase last week or whenever could have,

903
01:19:36,102 --> 01:19:40,782
could be several. Yeah. It could be, could be four, $250 million block trades.

904
01:19:41,162 --> 01:19:42,262
Right. That makes sense.

905
01:19:42,462 --> 01:19:44,422
Yeah, you might as well take that.

906
01:19:44,422 --> 01:19:48,262
I mean, they've got the volume to support that kind of a raise all the time.

907
01:19:48,262 --> 01:19:50,162
You saw it when they built the reserve, right?

908
01:19:50,162 --> 01:19:51,662
And they only used, what was it?

909
01:19:51,662 --> 01:19:53,962
4.6% of the weekly volume.

910
01:19:54,962 --> 01:19:56,662
And they raised a billion for in a week.

911
01:19:56,662 --> 01:20:01,562
Like they've got that type of volume to just do it as a normal course of business here.

912
01:20:01,662 --> 01:20:09,162
So one thing that's just been continuing to blow my mind and is just the liquidity.

913
01:20:09,162 --> 01:20:17,182
Like this company has been a top 20 publicly traded company since October 30th of 24.

914
01:20:18,962 --> 01:20:20,602
Like that's insane.

915
01:20:21,062 --> 01:20:27,242
The company is ranked 220th largest U.S. company, but they're the 19th largest by volume.

916
01:20:28,882 --> 01:20:30,302
Like make that make sense.

917
01:20:31,082 --> 01:20:35,322
I mean, I think I like that Tom Lee.

918
01:20:35,322 --> 01:20:51,102
I really do like that Tom Lee kind of talking point he's got on repeat now that the MSTR market is, you know, or has been over the past year, the most liquid options market related to Bitcoin in the public.

919
01:20:51,102 --> 01:20:56,142
I think it's because the Ibit options market was just, quite frankly, not liquid whatsoever.

920
01:20:57,042 --> 01:21:10,662
So, you know, a lot of the hedging pressure, especially with the advent of the ATM and the massive ATM issuance, anyone who wanted to hedge aggressively was able to get cheap borrow, right?

921
01:21:10,682 --> 01:21:14,862
It's a very, very cheap borrow on the stock and had an options market that was extremely liquid.

922
01:21:14,862 --> 01:21:19,402
So couple that with all the traders, the Gamma traders, the Delta hedgers.

923
01:21:19,902 --> 01:21:24,502
I mean, it's a playground for anyone looking to interested in Bitcoin's volatility.

924
01:21:24,942 --> 01:21:31,182
So I would say it's structurally important to the Bitcoin ecosystem.

925
01:21:31,502 --> 01:21:40,282
And I like that point that Saylor said at Meno that was like, we'll keep buying or we'll exhaust the sellers by continuing to buy.

926
01:21:40,422 --> 01:21:41,382
It was something along those lines.

927
01:21:41,382 --> 01:21:44,782
We can buy more than you can sell.

928
01:21:44,862 --> 01:21:50,962
yeah but he complaining stops or something like that wasn't that one of his posts yeah yeah yeah

929
01:21:50,962 --> 01:21:56,362
but he's becoming like sign like structurally important right like there will come a point

930
01:21:56,362 --> 01:22:01,242
at some point where like this does flip the whole like if he gets to five percent of the supply and

931
01:22:01,242 --> 01:22:07,102
six percent of supply and like there becomes there comes a point where this is structurally relevant

932
01:22:07,102 --> 01:22:12,742
to the entire bitcoin market and you know he's really leaning on every lever he has so kudos to

933
01:22:12,742 --> 01:22:26,402
I also think from like a sentiment and narrative perspective, buying this much Bitcoin down here from maybe an outsider's perspective who maybe isn't in the weeds.

934
01:22:27,342 --> 01:22:33,182
I think there is something to buying it at these levels, right?

935
01:22:35,302 --> 01:22:42,602
And, you know, I think that post, the buying will commence until the complaining stop.

936
01:22:42,742 --> 01:22:49,782
It is kind of a nod towards that, that they are buying regardless of the price.

937
01:22:49,782 --> 01:22:51,302
And it's not a price thing.

938
01:22:51,522 --> 01:22:53,302
This is accumulation.

939
01:22:55,122 --> 01:22:59,602
I'm not going to let them totally off the hook on a lot of this, because I do also think

940
01:22:59,602 --> 01:23:08,882
there's a downside to the level and frequency of transparency that strategy really set the

941
01:23:08,882 --> 01:23:09,422
trend for.

942
01:23:09,422 --> 01:23:21,462
And the downside to that is it forces an investor base to reflect on new news and new information every single week and try to draw new conclusions every single week.

943
01:23:21,522 --> 01:23:23,662
And that incentivizes short term behavior.

944
01:23:24,422 --> 01:23:29,082
So everyone had kind of got comfortable with the fact with Bitcoin, it's going to go up, it's going to go down.

945
01:23:29,162 --> 01:23:31,402
You got to take a long time horizon on this.

946
01:23:31,922 --> 01:23:33,582
A short outlook is four years.

947
01:23:33,662 --> 01:23:35,622
You should really be looking much further out than that.

948
01:23:35,702 --> 01:23:37,322
You know, people were comfortable with that with Bitcoin.

949
01:23:37,322 --> 01:23:47,682
But now with equities fully capitalized on Bitcoin, they're trying to have pivots happen every week based on whatever the trading is doing that week.

950
01:23:48,222 --> 01:23:52,602
It's incentivizing really short term thinking from an investor community.

951
01:23:53,122 --> 01:23:57,022
Whereas in a traditional company, you get information once a quarter.

952
01:23:57,662 --> 01:23:58,682
That's what you're digesting.

953
01:23:59,042 --> 01:24:00,742
That's when you get the financials.

954
01:24:00,782 --> 01:24:01,842
That's when you see the standing.

955
01:24:01,842 --> 01:24:12,602
So like if strategy, for instance, was doing all this raising throughout the quarter and nobody found out until they released their year-end financials and then all of a sudden you're going, oh my God, look at how much Bitcoin they bought.

956
01:24:12,782 --> 01:24:15,922
And if it's a net positive number, you got a positive yield at the end of it.

957
01:24:15,982 --> 01:24:17,722
I know right now it's a negative yield.

958
01:24:18,502 --> 01:24:21,942
Like you can smooth out a lot of noise and continue to execute there.

959
01:24:22,082 --> 01:24:26,042
But right now what's happened is they've put themselves under a microscope.

960
01:24:27,122 --> 01:24:28,422
And I think that's good.

961
01:24:28,422 --> 01:24:33,722
I think that it brought a level of transparency, but it started to change.

962
01:24:34,262 --> 01:24:36,762
Oh my gosh, I'm just looking at that ramp up. That's crazy.

963
01:24:37,482 --> 01:24:40,722
But it causes a change in the behaviors of investors.

964
01:24:41,662 --> 01:24:47,842
A lot of people are looking for you to make changes based on one week of stock performance

965
01:24:47,842 --> 01:24:50,842
or two weeks of stock performance or one month of stock performance.

966
01:24:51,902 --> 01:24:54,862
And that's not what these companies are structurally built to do.

967
01:24:54,862 --> 01:25:02,362
and if the companies are run well they're here to weather volatility right i mean they're

968
01:25:02,362 --> 01:25:07,262
structured in a way where they're low risk they've got capital to continue the operations they have

969
01:25:07,262 --> 01:25:12,302
sound balance sheets if you don't have yourself in a position where you've taken on unfavorable

970
01:25:12,302 --> 01:25:16,702
debt terms that leaves you with some type of collateral trigger margin requirement or something

971
01:25:16,702 --> 01:25:23,042
like that that causes an issue for you you can ride out these periods and if your thesis is that

972
01:25:23,042 --> 01:25:28,062
Bitcoin is going up over a long period of time, well, then that company that's putting on a long

973
01:25:28,062 --> 01:25:32,602
term carry trade, Bitcoin relative to the US dollar is going to win over a long period of time.

974
01:25:33,242 --> 01:25:38,982
But you have to be willing to allocate for that. You know, I've even seen plenty of criticism for

975
01:25:38,982 --> 01:25:44,702
us around the strategy stuff going, how can you still be bullish? It's way down. You guys can only

976
01:25:44,702 --> 01:25:50,262
do this because your entry point was so low. And you go, well, yeah, that's a long time ago.

977
01:25:50,262 --> 01:25:55,442
and we've been sitting on it ever since. And so you can ride out these ups and downs because

978
01:25:55,442 --> 01:25:59,722
you're watching the long-term thesis play out and the things that we thought were going to happen

979
01:25:59,722 --> 01:26:05,982
have started to happen now. And you're starting to see like, oh my God, I don't think people are

980
01:26:05,982 --> 01:26:11,562
understanding what's developing in front of them. They're just focused on the value of that asset.

981
01:26:12,202 --> 01:26:17,282
They're ignoring the entire ecosystem that's being built up around this. The other businesses

982
01:26:17,282 --> 01:26:20,662
that are being built that are going to be dependent on that as the core infrastructure

983
01:26:20,662 --> 01:26:20,922
port.

984
01:26:20,982 --> 01:26:23,242
Like, I think they're missing that completely.

985
01:26:23,722 --> 01:26:27,822
And they're just looking at, you know, how it's trading relative to its MNAV.

986
01:26:27,822 --> 01:26:32,322
And I think in a year or two, that's going to be a totally irrelevant conversation for

987
01:26:32,322 --> 01:26:37,122
the companies that managed to emerge into something bigger than what the industry has

988
01:26:37,122 --> 01:26:37,802
been right now.

989
01:26:38,622 --> 01:26:38,802
Yeah.

990
01:26:39,002 --> 01:26:42,442
You know, I've been talking about MNAV for years now.

991
01:26:43,682 --> 01:26:44,442
It might be your fault.

992
01:26:44,442 --> 01:26:56,042
I know. I think it might be my fault, which, damn it. Because the main reason I looked at MNAV was to try to compare it to other companies in the equity world.

993
01:26:57,562 --> 01:27:02,762
I think you were comparing it to, or it came around with the ETFs, didn't it? Wasn't that when it really got popular?

994
01:27:02,762 --> 01:27:20,302
Yeah, around the ETFs, it got popular. But also, it was interesting for me to compare it to price-to-book ratios of other top 10. When I saw strategy, I immediately thought, this company is going to be the largest company on the planet back when they held 100,000 Bitcoin.

995
01:27:20,302 --> 01:27:41,162
You know, and here they are. And all this infrastructure is being built. I still have that same thought. Like, I think they're going to be the largest company on the planet. And like, how do you value that? Like, how do you value the company that has the most money? And if all equities are forward looking, there's got to be some sort of multiple that you put on top of it.

996
01:27:41,162 --> 01:27:50,042
but you can only compare that multiple relative to other equities in the market.

997
01:27:51,022 --> 01:27:56,442
At the end of the day, the only thing that you can compare that's homogenous is market cap.

998
01:27:57,202 --> 01:28:01,542
All of the other companies in the entire market have completely different financial structures,

999
01:28:02,202 --> 01:28:05,922
different cash flow, different revenue, different industries, different businesses,

1000
01:28:05,922 --> 01:28:09,582
different leaders, and it's all just so different.

1001
01:28:09,582 --> 01:28:14,442
so then you start to think about well market cap is really the only way to compare like

1002
01:28:14,442 --> 01:28:20,262
the the mag 7 or the the elite companies in the world you're like okay is nvidia worth more than

1003
01:28:20,262 --> 01:28:28,742
apple yeah sure you know like make the multiples make sense it's you can't compare you can look at

1004
01:28:28,742 --> 01:28:34,362
all the multiples on the entire industry and see like how that number is kind of trending but

1005
01:28:34,362 --> 01:28:39,122
like you can't compare any of this other stuff with the exception of market cap

1006
01:28:39,122 --> 01:29:00,022
That's why it doesn't really bother me at the moment. We're in the infancy of this entire sector of the market. Most of these companies haven't really achieved real scale yet, been able to really get products out there deployed that they're able to scale their business alongside of.

1007
01:29:00,022 --> 01:29:05,242
So outside of strategy, strategy is kind of the one that's far and away ahead of everyone.

1008
01:29:05,382 --> 01:29:09,582
I don't think there's probably a way to catch them, although a lot will all be trying.

1009
01:29:10,702 --> 01:29:18,162
But when you look at where this is evolving to and everything being built around it,

1010
01:29:19,002 --> 01:29:32,844
like there a mass amount of value creation that going to come out of these corporate structures backed by Bitcoin that I don think is getting much appreciation or attention in the broader market We live in a tiny echo chamber by the way

1011
01:29:33,804 --> 01:29:38,444
What's happening on X, when you watch your X feed, you probably see 20 people talking on there most

1012
01:29:38,444 --> 01:29:46,044
of the time. Right. So it's like this small echo chamber that we're all plugged into that's just

1013
01:29:46,044 --> 01:29:50,924
hyper focused on this one obscure sector in the market that most people have no idea even exists.

1014
01:29:51,564 --> 01:29:55,564
the number of people i've talked to just this week and i'm like yeah well you know like strategy they

1015
01:29:55,564 --> 01:30:01,164
got like 70 billion dollars worth of bitcoin i've never heard of it i'm like oh my gosh like it's

1016
01:30:01,164 --> 01:30:08,444
all i've heard about for a couple years now like it's that's the world we live in so within that

1017
01:30:08,444 --> 01:30:15,724
it also means that you likely have a fairly small investor base that's being active out here really

1018
01:30:15,724 --> 01:30:20,684
you're seeing a huge amount of institutional capital that's found these plays that understands

1019
01:30:20,684 --> 01:30:24,764
the volatility around these plays and they're doing the vast majority of the trading out there

1020
01:30:25,484 --> 01:30:31,404
you know we used to have this view that we thought in the early days that strategy was likely

1021
01:30:31,404 --> 01:30:36,204
primarily driven by retail investors i have a totally different perspective on that now

1022
01:30:36,924 --> 01:30:42,364
i don't think that's the case look at the volumes there's just no way even back then it's three

1023
01:30:42,364 --> 01:30:47,564
billion dollars trading a day that's not that's not retail no no and so what's happening you know

1024
01:30:47,564 --> 01:30:52,764
with the retail market trading on working with the derivatives and buying the spot like maybe on the

1025
01:30:52,764 --> 01:30:59,484
super micro caps when they come out initially maybe but even then right even then it's a huge

1026
01:30:59,484 --> 01:31:03,884
amount of institutional capital they were the participants and all the capital raises so they

1027
01:31:03,884 --> 01:31:07,804
were the major holders in these equities as soon as they hit the public markets it was like all

1028
01:31:07,804 --> 01:31:13,004
institutional capital and even on the rotation of that capital you get a lot of institutions that

1029
01:31:13,004 --> 01:31:16,924
come in immediately after one of those events and they buy when things are at depressed levels and

1030
01:31:16,924 --> 01:31:20,764
they start participating in that market now they've got the ability to use the volatility

1031
01:31:21,564 --> 01:31:26,924
like it's a it's a different type of investor than we all originally thought it was which can only

1032
01:31:26,924 --> 01:31:32,044
come with you know being able to kind of see behind the scenes and watch more of these play out

1033
01:31:32,044 --> 01:31:38,124
from inception right with strategy they were a little ways down the path before they started

1034
01:31:38,124 --> 01:31:42,844
getting any real coverage but now we're looking at what happens if you organically stand one of

1035
01:31:42,844 --> 01:31:49,244
these up yeah what does that structure look like who are the market participants in what size are

1036
01:31:49,244 --> 01:31:55,404
they playing what type of terms are they looking for right and then you see after the fact when

1037
01:31:55,404 --> 01:32:00,364
it's just trading in a steady state who's still in there you start seeing those 13 f's come out

1038
01:32:00,364 --> 01:32:04,204
you start to see who's holding all of these equities who's the market participants here and

1039
01:32:04,204 --> 01:32:10,524
in what size and you quickly realize there's a lot of institutional capital that realizes there's

1040
01:32:10,524 --> 01:32:15,804
value here, even in the small place. The volatility is valuable to them, whether it's up or down,

1041
01:32:15,804 --> 01:32:20,604
right? They've got strategies for both directions and they're going to continue playing that game

1042
01:32:20,604 --> 01:32:25,004
because this is a very unique market with equities that are specifically structured

1043
01:32:25,004 --> 01:32:30,284
to have more volatility than Bitcoin itself, which means it is a trader's playground.

1044
01:32:30,284 --> 01:32:35,244
You can have all the algorithms bouncing between all of the prefs and the small Bitcoin treasury

1045
01:32:35,244 --> 01:32:40,924
companies and strategy and Bitcoin and the options market and hedging in dynamically in all these

1046
01:32:40,924 --> 01:32:45,284
different locations. You could just have a million pair trades you can put on now. There's ARBs

1047
01:32:45,284 --> 01:32:50,284
between all the different products you can put on now. This is becoming a pretty big ecosystem.

1048
01:32:51,524 --> 01:32:55,984
Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead, Mason. I'm going to pull up a chart.

1049
01:32:55,984 --> 01:33:16,844
Yeah, I had, yeah, Ben, what you're really speaking to, or at least the part about strategies, transparency, leading to investors to continuously thinking about their investment, maybe re-evaluating.

1050
01:33:16,844 --> 01:33:45,944
It has its pros. It has its cons. But what I've been really thinking about is we're kind of like the first generation of social media native investors, right? I think that epoch in history started with the Wall Street Bets, Reddit, which Jeff was a part of, I was a part of in some ways. I'm sure Ben was in there.

1051
01:33:46,844 --> 01:33:50,224
Dan Hillary, I don't know, maybe driving a boat at that point.

1052
01:33:50,224 --> 01:34:00,024
But what I've been really thinking about is social media.

1053
01:34:00,344 --> 01:34:10,364
And a really good quote I heard today was, we now have freedom of speech, but we might not have freedom of reach.

1054
01:34:10,364 --> 01:34:17,184
Right. And what that's really talking about is the algorithm, the the bubbles in which we live in.

1055
01:34:17,364 --> 01:34:21,304
And Ben was referencing the the bubble in which we live in.

1056
01:34:21,604 --> 01:34:32,344
But on social media, you really create your own bubble in that it's showing you the things that it thinks is going to make you stay there the longest.

1057
01:34:32,344 --> 01:34:55,364
And usually that's negativity. And usually that's, that's things that, you know, instinctually as humans, it makes us fearful, and we're more likely to react to it. It's like if you get a, if someone says something mean about you, right, you're way more likely to focus on that than any sort of compliment.

1058
01:34:55,364 --> 01:35:01,144
So the algorithms really deeply want to scare us.

1059
01:35:01,924 --> 01:35:13,884
And when you mix that with a mission of long-term investing, of holding something for 10 decades, in some ways, you're making it unnecessarily hard, right?

1060
01:35:14,344 --> 01:35:17,024
And in some ways, it might not be sustainable.

1061
01:35:17,524 --> 01:35:21,724
So that's something I've really been starting to ponder.

1062
01:35:21,724 --> 01:35:30,924
I've had it on three separate occasions that I can specifically remember where I'd went out

1063
01:35:30,924 --> 01:35:35,884
you know did my old diligence thing came up with a thesis that I thought was pretty rock solid

1064
01:35:35,884 --> 01:35:41,364
made an allocation and then I started seeing noise on social media about the stocks

1065
01:35:41,364 --> 01:35:47,964
and I exited those positions because it started to just you know give me too much doubt about it

1066
01:35:47,964 --> 01:35:50,184
Like, you know, maybe I'm blatantly missing something.

1067
01:35:50,244 --> 01:35:53,224
I don't know what it is, but like, I'm just going to go on the sidelines for now.

1068
01:35:53,584 --> 01:35:56,264
And then within three months, the thesis played out entirely.

1069
01:35:57,204 --> 01:36:02,564
And I was sitting on the sidelines because I let noise from, you know, anonymous accounts

1070
01:36:02,564 --> 01:36:07,764
on the internet, you know, shake me out of that position, which I never should have.

1071
01:36:07,824 --> 01:36:07,964
Right.

1072
01:36:07,984 --> 01:36:10,004
I had a thesis that was a longer term thesis.

1073
01:36:10,004 --> 01:36:13,884
I was willing to sit on it until I got on the internet and just started reading all these

1074
01:36:13,884 --> 01:36:14,784
panic comments.

1075
01:36:14,784 --> 01:36:21,524
and you quickly realize that if you're going to be effective you've got to be able to detach

1076
01:36:21,524 --> 01:36:28,184
from that to your point it is the negativity that gets the engagement and that gets it amplified

1077
01:36:28,184 --> 01:36:32,104
you know i even see it with the personal stuff right if someone wants to go out and

1078
01:36:32,104 --> 01:36:36,644
chirp me about something right that that's what gets bubbled to the top of the algorithm and you

1079
01:36:36,644 --> 01:36:41,604
got to go you know like mute whatever's chirping you so that you don't waste your time chasing you

1080
01:36:41,604 --> 01:36:46,484
mean comments on the internet around when you got things to do but like that's what bubbles up in the

1081
01:36:46,484 --> 01:36:53,684
algorithm so you've got to learn the difference between being willing to do your own due diligence

1082
01:36:53,684 --> 01:36:59,444
and form a thesis that you're willing to stick to long term and in doing that you can use social

1083
01:36:59,444 --> 01:37:04,324
media as a great tool there's a ton of research that happens out there sometimes the accounts are

1084
01:37:04,324 --> 01:37:08,724
hard to find but you can find them after a while i mean dan's found a ton of these you know obscure

1085
01:37:08,724 --> 01:37:13,524
small accounts that are putting out pretty good information that you know he reshares every once

1086
01:37:13,524 --> 01:37:21,364
in a while and so if you use social media like a tool and not necessarily as a i'll call it a

1087
01:37:21,364 --> 01:37:27,204
conviction community yeah all right you can't do that because everyone's starting from a different

1088
01:37:27,204 --> 01:37:31,284
position than you are they've got different capital levels than you have they're putting

1089
01:37:31,284 --> 01:37:37,124
a different percentage in each trade right they've got different cash flow than you have and so like

1090
01:37:37,124 --> 01:37:44,244
Their ability to get nervous about something is different than yours, but it's every bit as loud

1091
01:37:44,244 --> 01:37:50,124
because you don't know. You don't know if that person has $300 in something or they've got 3

1092
01:37:50,124 --> 01:37:54,504
million or 5 million. How many people have you met from Twitter that are making just these massive

1093
01:37:54,504 --> 01:38:00,324
investments and things that you would never guess? You don't know. And so you can't filter and weight

1094
01:38:00,324 --> 01:38:05,124
those responses because you don't know what that individual's circumstance is.

1095
01:38:05,664 --> 01:38:15,364
So I view it as a great way to fast track research into equities. But once I decide to make an

1096
01:38:15,364 --> 01:38:21,184
investment, I'm basically shutting it off. I'll mute the tickers for things that I own.

1097
01:38:21,184 --> 01:38:26,484
I'm not going to follow it because I don't want that noise. I've got a thesis. I'll watch the

1098
01:38:26,484 --> 01:38:32,224
financials myself and keep an eye on things that are happening. That I'm willing to do. That's a

1099
01:38:32,224 --> 01:38:38,064
part of me managing my portfolio. I can use it in the exploratory phase, but I can't keep and build

1100
01:38:38,064 --> 01:38:42,884
my conviction around that. That doesn't work because then you abandon your thesis much too

1101
01:38:42,884 --> 01:38:49,144
early. The reason why we've all been able to, for the most part, hold our strategy positions from

1102
01:38:49,144 --> 01:38:55,284
way back in the day is the thesis is still playing out that we all built on. Over time,

1103
01:38:55,284 --> 01:39:00,604
this is a learned and practiced skill, the social media thing, right? Yeah. Nothing's changed. Oh,

1104
01:39:00,644 --> 01:39:05,764
man, it goes through waves, right? Sometimes it's great and people like you and they like to,

1105
01:39:06,244 --> 01:39:11,004
you know, pat you on the back. And then the next day, oh my gosh, right? It turns on a dime. And

1106
01:39:11,004 --> 01:39:17,404
the biggest thing that I think that this group I would give a lot of credit to is the consistency

1107
01:39:17,404 --> 01:39:22,544
to just continue showing up through every phase of that market cycle all the time, because the

1108
01:39:22,544 --> 01:39:27,004
thesis still hasn't fully played out for us the way we've been talking about it now for a couple

1109
01:39:27,004 --> 01:39:33,484
of years. And that's still developing. And so I hear all the noise. I watch the market price. I

1110
01:39:33,484 --> 01:39:39,524
don't love when my portfolio goes way down during these. It sucks, right? It's not great. But the

1111
01:39:39,524 --> 01:39:44,464
thesis is still playing out and everything I could have possibly hoped to happen to open up the gates

1112
01:39:44,464 --> 01:39:50,024
to allow this to truly materialize and generate a mass amount of value, that's still in front of me,

1113
01:39:50,024 --> 01:39:54,904
not behind me. Yeah. Which is why I'm not going to get shaken out of these, right? People can be

1114
01:39:54,904 --> 01:39:58,884
upset with the model and say that they don't like them. They have a different thesis than I do.

1115
01:39:59,464 --> 01:40:06,004
My thesis is I want to collect this capital. Like my life depends on it because I believe that this

1116
01:40:06,004 --> 01:40:11,004
is playing a significant role in the future of finance. And I want to be a part of shaping that.

1117
01:40:11,444 --> 01:40:16,384
And to do that, you've got to be able to block out noise and just execute out strategies for a

1118
01:40:16,384 --> 01:40:22,304
long period of time. Sometimes that means sitting and doing nothing. And sometimes that means moving

1119
01:40:22,304 --> 01:40:27,644
incredibly fast. And it's all just dependent on where you're at in any given week and where your

1120
01:40:27,644 --> 01:40:35,564
company stands. I've got to stop you right there because this is a perfect place to say that we

1121
01:40:35,564 --> 01:40:40,944
have a True North Insight event happening in February at Strategy World, Monday, February 23rd.

1122
01:40:40,944 --> 01:40:46,604
if you want to come out and come hang out with us and talk about strategy we this is going to be an

1123
01:40:46,604 --> 01:40:51,644
exclusive event where we plan to have a lot of fun this will be very interactive about four hours

1124
01:40:51,644 --> 01:40:57,004
of content and interaction plus a networking event that will happen in the evening where there will

1125
01:40:57,004 --> 01:41:04,824
be food and drinks and everything so please if you're if you're interested in in a intimate event

1126
01:41:04,824 --> 01:41:09,964
where you get to interact with us and our team and likely some of the strategy folks i think we'll

1127
01:41:09,964 --> 01:41:15,684
have some special guests there as well. And it will be a great time and we'll have a great night

1128
01:41:15,684 --> 01:41:23,484
and look forward to having people there. So if you are interested, this is on Luma. We will put the

1129
01:41:23,484 --> 01:41:29,944
link in the chat. It is also available on the MSTR True North website. If you go on events,

1130
01:41:30,344 --> 01:41:35,784
there's an events tab and you can see MSTR True North Vegas in partnership with Strategy World

1131
01:41:35,784 --> 01:41:41,664
2026 and there's all of the links down there so there are different tiers of tickets there are

1132
01:41:41,664 --> 01:41:49,544
only four left of the first tier and we will move on to the second couple of tiers here over the next

1133
01:41:49,544 --> 01:41:57,824
few tickets that are sold so boom come join us i'll kick it over to mason back to you yeah last

1134
01:41:57,824 --> 01:42:07,004
thing to add is um the the financial incentive by large institutions or anyone in the market to

1135
01:42:07,004 --> 01:42:16,444
scare the shit out of retail so high via via bots via whatever and in the world of ai the

1136
01:42:16,444 --> 01:42:23,264
the marginal cost of this is zero right you can send a million different negative messages

1137
01:42:23,264 --> 01:42:32,944
all the time. And it's really effective. So I think it's just something you have to be

1138
01:42:32,944 --> 01:42:42,124
conscious of. Yeah. I'm going to share a couple more. 100% agree with you, Mason. This is exactly

1139
01:42:42,124 --> 01:42:48,724
what happened with Wall Street bets with the GME craziness. It was very clear as that blew up,

1140
01:42:48,724 --> 01:42:53,684
like the wall street bets thread went from 600 000 people to 10 million people in like two days

1141
01:42:54,404 --> 01:43:01,844
and it was very clear that all these bots were coming in with brand new accounts um and

1142
01:43:02,724 --> 01:43:16,986
bear posting on everything it was it was crazy how quickly it was infiltrated Um once they recognized how how in deep of a position that they were So that can continue to

1143
01:43:16,986 --> 01:43:23,126
happen. That will continue. We've seen it. Like we've seen the reason my posts have verified

1144
01:43:23,126 --> 01:43:27,646
users only on them still. Right. Cause we went through that weird period where there was,

1145
01:43:27,646 --> 01:43:30,006
It was brutal. It was disgusting.

1146
01:43:30,586 --> 01:43:32,826
And because we had just entered the public markets,

1147
01:43:32,966 --> 01:43:35,846
we were apparently one of the tickers that they were spinning up around.

1148
01:43:35,966 --> 01:43:37,886
It would just be hundreds of them.

1149
01:43:38,586 --> 01:43:41,766
And it's bear bots, but then it's also threat bots.

1150
01:43:41,986 --> 01:43:44,046
Yeah, like literal death threats.

1151
01:43:45,266 --> 01:43:46,566
Death threat bot.

1152
01:43:47,246 --> 01:43:47,486
Yeah.

1153
01:43:47,546 --> 01:43:47,926
There's tons of them.

1154
01:43:47,926 --> 01:43:49,406
There's tons of them.

1155
01:43:49,566 --> 01:43:49,826
Totally.

1156
01:43:50,266 --> 01:43:53,166
Yeah, it was a big deal for a couple of weeks.

1157
01:43:54,426 --> 01:43:56,226
And it becomes a real issue.

1158
01:43:56,226 --> 01:44:01,446
And then there's also, you know, people out there that are, you know, unstable.

1159
01:44:01,446 --> 01:44:09,346
I'll say I had some weird experiences, you know, right away when I took the job and had some weird things happen, but won't get into that tonight.

1160
01:44:09,346 --> 01:44:11,186
But yeah, it's, it's real.

1161
01:44:11,186 --> 01:44:13,266
Like what happens out there is real.

1162
01:44:13,386 --> 01:44:16,686
You don't really see it until you're all of a sudden the target of it for a period of time.

1163
01:44:17,106 --> 01:44:18,646
And then you go, what is happening?

1164
01:44:18,846 --> 01:44:23,026
And you got to find ways to shut that down and minimize it as best you can.

1165
01:44:23,026 --> 01:44:30,326
completely agree so let's go back to a couple graphs and think about valuations a little bit

1166
01:44:30,326 --> 01:44:36,206
um i i pull up this chart here this is s s p 500 price to book value which is the blue line

1167
01:44:36,206 --> 01:44:43,266
and the s p 500 p e ratio which is the green line and i think this is a fascinating perspective

1168
01:44:43,266 --> 01:44:48,866
just seeing the divergence here in and guru focus sends me ads all the time uh seeing the

1169
01:44:48,866 --> 01:44:53,606
divergence between price to book and the PE ratio. So it's effectively saying the multiple

1170
01:44:53,606 --> 01:44:57,686
is increasing over and above the balance sheet, but the earnings, the relative earnings aren't

1171
01:44:57,686 --> 01:45:04,326
increasing. The price relative to the earnings is not increasing. Just an interesting phenomenon to

1172
01:45:04,326 --> 01:45:10,866
watch play out. You look at 23, 24, there's a lot closer multiple between the PE ratio and the

1173
01:45:10,866 --> 01:45:15,746
price to book ratio, but effectively like the strength of the balance sheet. So is this

1174
01:45:15,746 --> 01:45:19,606
overheated i have no idea is there going to be a bigger focus towards balance sheet in the future

1175
01:45:19,606 --> 01:45:25,546
do these multiples contract on balance sheet multiples who knows but just an interesting

1176
01:45:25,546 --> 01:45:38,606
data point to look at the m nav of the entire s p 500 is 5.5 the p e ratio of the s p 500 is 28.8

1177
01:45:38,606 --> 01:45:46,366
strategies MNAV is 1.1 and their PE ratio is like, I don't know, six or seven,

1178
01:45:47,446 --> 01:45:50,926
something like that. Maybe a little bit less now that Bitcoin's down a bit. So I don't know,

1179
01:45:50,926 --> 01:45:55,986
maybe it's like, or maybe it's more, probably maybe it's 10 or something like that, but it's

1180
01:45:55,986 --> 01:46:01,286
still significantly lower than the rest of the market. The other thing that I thought is

1181
01:46:01,286 --> 01:46:05,986
interesting, I've been looking at some of the smaller Bitcoin treasury companies and I won't

1182
01:46:05,986 --> 01:46:15,946
name names. But I was looking at companies that are around $750 million and looking at other

1183
01:46:15,946 --> 01:46:22,326
companies around that market cap to look at different balance sheets and different financial

1184
01:46:22,326 --> 01:46:28,166
structures of some of these smaller micro or small cap companies and how they compare to some

1185
01:46:28,166 --> 01:46:32,166
of the Bitcoin treasury companies, thinking about balance sheet strength and revenue, etc.

1186
01:46:32,166 --> 01:46:36,986
And one of the ones that came up here that was just interesting to see is like Krispy Kreme

1187
01:46:36,986 --> 01:46:44,526
donut, right? Krispy Kreme donut is a $750 million market cap. And just for fun, I'm like,

1188
01:46:44,546 --> 01:46:47,366
let's just look at their balance sheet. Let's see what Krispy Kreme looks like.

1189
01:46:48,606 --> 01:46:59,146
And donut MNav. So actually funny enough, their price to book ratio is 1.1. Okay. So you can think

1190
01:46:59,146 --> 01:47:03,886
of their MNAV as being 1.1. And so then I was like, okay, that's interesting. You can look at

1191
01:47:03,886 --> 01:47:09,486
the total assets. You're like, wow, you've got $2.6 billion of assets, right? Let's do a little

1192
01:47:09,486 --> 01:47:16,746
bit of math. You got $2.6 billion of assets and you've got on the liability side, total liabilities,

1193
01:47:16,946 --> 01:47:24,946
you've got $1.9 billion of liabilities. Okay. So you've effectively got about $700 million of net

1194
01:47:24,946 --> 01:47:32,226
assets which makes sense and then i was like well what what are crispy cream's assets like

1195
01:47:32,226 --> 01:47:38,306
i think i got 700 like they what you know what's what is this what is two like crispy cream's

1196
01:47:38,306 --> 01:47:43,586
holding 2.6 billion dollars of assets let's dive into this a little bit like what what makes up the

1197
01:47:43,586 --> 01:47:52,226
assets sprinkles and so i looked i looked at the financials and this this is um this ended up uh

1198
01:47:52,226 --> 01:47:59,346
triggering a analysis into a bunch of these small, small cap companies. And I've got a bone

1199
01:47:59,346 --> 01:48:05,886
to pick with most of them, but okay. So this is their 10 Q. This is the most recent quarterly

1200
01:48:05,886 --> 01:48:12,706
balance sheet report. So you can see in here, the total assets, $2.6 billion. And you look at their

1201
01:48:12,706 --> 01:48:20,386
cash, cash and cash equivalent, 30 million bucks. Okay. So that's their liquid cash,

1202
01:48:20,386 --> 01:48:26,926
it's 30 million dollars accounts receivable 53 million dollars okay so you're like okay on line

1203
01:48:26,926 --> 01:48:32,006
three you're talking about credit risk you got 30 million dollars of cash you're right now you got

1204
01:48:32,006 --> 01:48:37,786
line three 53 million dollars now you got credit risk then you've got inventory of 28 million

1205
01:48:37,786 --> 01:48:45,346
dollars it's just sugar uh taxes receivable 19 million prepaid expense 29 million you're like okay

1206
01:48:45,346 --> 01:48:53,466
the the current assets is 161 million now where where this gets a little weird is the second part

1207
01:48:53,466 --> 01:49:01,166
uh goodwill this is the part that really pissed me off goodwill and other intangible assets

1208
01:49:01,166 --> 01:49:09,126
make up 1.5 billion dollars okay let's think about how crazy that is what is goodwill

1209
01:49:09,126 --> 01:49:16,266
goodwill is like if you and if you acquire a company and you pay more for that company than

1210
01:49:16,266 --> 01:49:22,146
the you know market cap of that company that delta is technically considered goodwill

1211
01:49:22,146 --> 01:49:31,446
so that's intangibles it's like brand value or uh you know an email distribution list or

1212
01:49:31,446 --> 01:49:38,826
it's something that is not liquid it is an illiquid thing that you can count as an

1213
01:49:38,826 --> 01:49:45,466
asset on your balance sheet. Okay. That's crazy. And then you have this other line,

1214
01:49:45,566 --> 01:49:51,266
which is other intangibles. What the hell is that? That's $800 million.

1215
01:49:52,486 --> 01:49:57,706
What is, you have $800 million of other intangibles that you're counting as an asset

1216
01:49:57,706 --> 01:50:04,806
on your balance sheet? Well, that's crazy. And then you've got property and equipment. Okay.

1217
01:50:04,806 --> 01:50:10,986
that's valued at $491 million. That's, well, that's not liquid, right? If you wanted to sell

1218
01:50:10,986 --> 01:50:15,306
that property, like who's going to buy the, the Krispy Kreme donut shop, like maybe Chick-fil-A

1219
01:50:15,306 --> 01:50:21,166
buys half of them. Uh, and then the other half, like maybe they sit vacant, who knows? And then

1220
01:50:21,166 --> 01:50:26,666
what about all the, all the equipment? Uh, like do people want all that machinery and infrastructure

1221
01:50:26,666 --> 01:50:34,786
to create Krispy Kreme donuts? Like what if Krispy Kreme donuts cause cancer and all of a

1222
01:50:34,786 --> 01:50:40,786
The asset side of the balance sheet, the 2.6 billion is actually, if you just pull out the

1223
01:50:40,786 --> 01:50:44,786
goodwill and other intangibles, because you're like, this isn't liquid and they're intangible,

1224
01:50:45,286 --> 01:50:48,226
the asset side of the balance sheet goes to a billion dollars.

1225
01:50:49,566 --> 01:50:53,986
Okay. Now let's go back and look at this, right? You've got total assets. It says 2.6,

1226
01:50:54,006 --> 01:50:57,166
but it really should be more like a billion because none of this stuff is liquid.

1227
01:50:58,046 --> 01:51:04,366
And the total liabilities are 1.9 billion. You're like, okay, well now that price to book ratio

1228
01:51:04,366 --> 01:51:10,286
is way off. It should be negative. The company is trading at a multiple

1229
01:51:10,286 --> 01:51:16,866
of some inflated number of goodwill and intangibles on a balance sheet. That number

1230
01:51:16,866 --> 01:51:25,946
is just wrong. Maybe not wrong. It's technically right based on the accounting rules.

1231
01:51:25,946 --> 01:51:30,546
But you start to rethink what is the value here. You look at the earnings and the earnings are...

1232
01:51:31,426 --> 01:51:37,266
okay on top of that krispy kreme has lost 55 550 million dollars in 2025.

1233
01:51:40,226 --> 01:51:46,866
like can you do a search for the goodwill and intangibles and see if they itemize those out

1234
01:51:46,866 --> 01:51:54,786
and see what's actually in there it's got to be hilarious like brand value yeah there you go yeah

1235
01:51:54,786 --> 01:52:05,066
well so are they like acquiring small donut shops at a premium and

1236
01:52:05,066 --> 01:52:09,586
rolling them and converting them to crispy crepes i have no idea we'll have to look into this

1237
01:52:09,586 --> 01:52:14,226
yeah we can look into it we don't need to do this here i just want to yeah it's uh

1238
01:52:14,226 --> 01:52:21,366
it just seems like and i was i was talking with our account accountants about goodwill a little

1239
01:52:21,366 --> 01:52:27,646
bit just because I'm just trying to get some history here. Basically, companies should take

1240
01:52:27,646 --> 01:52:33,886
an impairment charge. If this is valued too high, you can write it off. You can and you probably

1241
01:52:33,886 --> 01:52:39,706
should write it off, but there's incentive to not write it off. Your accounting firm or your auditor

1242
01:52:39,706 --> 01:52:45,946
will pretty much agree to whatever you say because they want you as a client and they can continue

1243
01:52:45,946 --> 01:52:53,146
to be there. But the point of doing this exercise is just backing up and looking at the actual

1244
01:52:53,146 --> 01:52:58,226
balance sheet and looking at the vehicle, like the investment vehicle that exists here with this

1245
01:52:58,226 --> 01:53:05,986
company that's worth $750 million. Like why? Why is it worth $750 million? It's worth $750 million

1246
01:53:05,986 --> 01:53:11,046
because there are market cap weighted index funds that buy everything.

1247
01:53:11,046 --> 01:53:21,246
and so when you start to compare this to companies that hold 750 million dollars of liquid bitcoin

1248
01:53:21,246 --> 01:53:25,366
that proposition starts to look a lot more attractive compared to a company that's lost

1249
01:53:25,366 --> 01:53:32,706
550 million dollars half the assets on the balance sheet are inflated and all the assets are illiquid

1250
01:53:32,706 --> 01:53:39,786
and this isn't the only this isn't the only place another most of these other companies i looked at

1251
01:53:39,786 --> 01:53:46,106
a couple of insurance companies and a few other companies. But another really interesting line

1252
01:53:46,106 --> 01:53:52,626
item that is generally a large number of the assets on the balance sheet is receivables,

1253
01:53:54,026 --> 01:53:59,726
like accounts receivables. And when you think about accounts receivables, it's like, okay, well,

1254
01:53:59,906 --> 01:54:05,766
that's credit risk. And a few companies I looked at, they had like 50% of the assets on the balance

1255
01:54:05,766 --> 01:54:12,106
sheet are receivables. Okay. Well, who are the receivables from? Are they from retail? Are they

1256
01:54:12,106 --> 01:54:16,646
from companies? And they have to take some sort of assumption on the credit risk associated with

1257
01:54:16,646 --> 01:54:20,606
getting those receivables in the door. So they are taking a haircut on them. Generally, they're

1258
01:54:20,606 --> 01:54:29,906
pretty hot. Like the, uh, the haircut is very small, but there's, there's so much asset value

1259
01:54:29,906 --> 01:54:37,046
sitting on like huge balance sheets everywhere that is credit risk that might just be completely

1260
01:54:37,046 --> 01:54:45,706
disrupted in the next five years. And that's being accounted for as an asset, even though it's

1261
01:54:45,706 --> 01:54:49,906
intangible and it's not actually real and they don't actually have the money, yet it's being

1262
01:54:49,906 --> 01:54:56,366
counted as an asset and flows into price to book values, flows into valuations. And like, whereas

1263
01:54:56,366 --> 01:55:02,486
the companies that have the Bitcoin on the balance sheet, they have the assets on the balance sheet.

1264
01:55:02,486 --> 01:55:08,266
They are real. They are liquid. They're not intangible. The asset itself trades $60 billion

1265
01:55:08,266 --> 01:55:16,386
a day. That value proposition is so much better than all this other garbage that has all these

1266
01:55:16,386 --> 01:55:23,026
inflated values. And we also only include one asset in those valuation metrics that we're doing.

1267
01:55:23,026 --> 01:55:29,186
yeah like strategy's now got 1.4 billion dollars sitting in cash that's not going to be included in

1268
01:55:29,186 --> 01:55:36,546
any of the metrics people are looking at right we just look at bitcoin value exactly right

1269
01:55:37,106 --> 01:55:41,906
boys i'm getting kind of to take my rope here yeah yeah we're i'm still on abu dhabi time so i

1270
01:55:41,906 --> 01:55:50,386
should be asleep um well with that we can end it there and uh i appreciate the time if you're

1271
01:55:50,386 --> 01:55:54,926
you're interested in joining us at strategy world, uh, please buy a ticket and come support us.

1272
01:55:55,426 --> 01:55:59,906
It will be a good time. I promise. Um, and maybe we'll get some sort of nightclub thing happening

1273
01:55:59,906 --> 01:56:04,386
later in the week. I don't know. We'll have some fun down in Vegas. Also, Jeff, we're telling

1274
01:56:04,386 --> 01:56:10,386
people to like, and subscribe. Oh yeah. Please like, and subscribe, uh, true North. We've never,

1275
01:56:10,386 --> 01:56:13,546
we've never done that before, but wow. We should probably do that at the beginning.

1276
01:56:13,546 --> 01:56:15,266
smash that

1277
01:56:15,266 --> 01:56:17,826
only subscribers

1278
01:56:17,826 --> 01:56:20,946
369 people

1279
01:56:20,946 --> 01:56:23,066
on live I guess on YouTube

1280
01:56:23,066 --> 01:56:25,606
we're going to have to get Tim to record another video

1281
01:56:25,606 --> 01:56:26,926
yeah exactly

1282
01:56:26,926 --> 01:56:29,626
well thank you

1283
01:56:29,626 --> 01:56:31,326
everybody an hour 56 in

1284
01:56:31,326 --> 01:56:33,646
and appreciate the time we'll catch you

1285
01:56:33,646 --> 01:56:35,086
probably not next week because that's Christmas

1286
01:56:35,086 --> 01:56:37,586
enjoy the holiday if we don't have another one of these

1287
01:56:37,586 --> 01:56:39,646
have a happy new year and we will see

1288
01:56:39,646 --> 01:56:40,746
you in 2026

1289
01:56:40,746 --> 01:56:42,086
awesome

1290
01:56:42,086 --> 01:56:43,706
thanks guys

1291
01:56:43,706 --> 01:56:44,706
talk soon