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Welcome in to This Week in Bitcoin, Episode 127.

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My name is Chris, chrislas.com and jupyterbroadcasting.com.

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Surprise, surprise.

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It's all about the energy this week.

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And not just because the new CPI report came out and, well, it's mostly about energy, but because of the story behind all of it.

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I think that's the really interesting thing this week.

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So that's what we're going to get into, which means we're going to start with macro.

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We're back with some breaking economic data.

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Inflation rose by 3.7% in September year over year and 0.6% month over month.

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NBC News business and economy reporter Ali Canals at the big board for us.

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Here at the desk, we've got NBC News contributor Caleb Silver.

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He's the chief business editor of People, Inc. and Investopedia's editor-in-chief.

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Ali, let's start with you.

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Walk us through the big numbers here, how they compare with previous months.

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Yeah, well, inflation coming in is expected here, but still very sticky.

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As you mentioned, Joe, 3.7% in September compared to 3.4% in August, that monthly rise of 0.6%.

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That's one of the largest increases that we've seen in years.

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And all of this has been driven by high diesel prices.

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We know diesel costs are up about 75% since the war with Iran began.

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And this report is very important because not only does it come ahead of the midterm elections,

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it also comes ahead of the next Fed interest rate decision later this month.

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We know the Fed's target for inflation is 2% all the way down here.

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And right now we're just going in the wrong direction.

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We were actually heading towards that number earlier this year.

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But then with the Iran war, prices shot up.

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And again, we're seeing very, very sticky inflation here, guys.

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Oh, man.

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We could have had a beautiful, beautiful inflation, the best inflation.

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So based on the government's latest numbers, it's pretty incredible.

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This is bad news really for the White House.

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and like they said in there, this is the last report before the midterms.

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It's a crapper.

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So they're in full spin mode over there in the White House,

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and I think sometimes you've got to listen to the spin

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because you can learn something from what they're trying to spin.

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A White House National Economic Council director, Kevin Hassett, joins me now.

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Kevin, welcome back to the show. Good to see you.

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The market doesn't like this.

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Interest rates are rising.

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It's the last report heading into the midterms,

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and it's not real great on inflation, is it?

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Right. You're absolutely right. What happened was that because the Houthis started attacking the Saudi pipeline and other Iranian proxies from Iraq were attacking refineries and so on, that we had a negative shock to energy again.

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So, look, it's not really that we started this conflict with Iran and that the straits been closed or screwed up this entire time.

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It's these secondary groups that are kind of related to the conflict.

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They're really causing the problem because we had all of this totally planned out.

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It's just these extra guys came in, you know, these third parties and they're messing things up.

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Attacking refineries and so on that we had a negative shock to energy again in September.

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Much of it has abated as we look at what the data look like now.

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But for sure, there was a top line number that was disappointed.

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But inside the top line number, there's a lot of good news.

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So food prices were flat.

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Drug prices, the biggest drops we've seen since the Second World War.

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You know, a lot of Trump policies are helping to keep inflation down.

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But the energy shock is really the headline story today.

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So this is what they do.

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And it doesn't matter who's in the White House.

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This is what they have to do.

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They try to frame this as a temporary thing.

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Look, once we get past these energy shocks, we're going to be on the right track.

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These policies, they're working, right?

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The same thing was done during Biden.

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Once this war, once Putin's war is done, Joe Biden's policies are really going to make

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this economy boom.

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You just wait.

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This inflation is transitory.

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So to really understand the problem, you can't listen to the day-to-day answers or spin.

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You can see how they're trying to position it, which I think is useful.

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Oh, look, this is the temporary reason.

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But just go, just look at the numbers. So I did. And we're going to go with the CPI, which is the report that came out this week. We talked recently about the PPI, which is the Fed's preferred number. Producer, this is consumer. But let's go on the consumer report and let's look at these numbers from the government, which we know are probably low. Like if you buy beef and if you buy fuel of any kind, these don't really reflect your numbers. But let's just go with the official government numbers. Okay.

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$100 from five years ago has lost approximately 18.6% of its purchasing power, according to the

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U.S. government, in just five years. So $100 from five years ago is only worth $81 today.

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And according to today's CPI report, that same basket of goods that cost $100 five years ago

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now costs you $122.83. And if we want to go back to the start of COVID, early 2020,

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the U.S. dollar has lost 23.2% of its purchasing power,

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according to the CPI report as of today.

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So $100 from February of 2020 is now worth $76.

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So you could buy $76 worth of goods

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with that $100 that you held onto for five years,

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or since 2020, so six years.

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The White House will always try to spin this

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as a temporary thing,

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but this has been getting worse and worse now.

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And when we talk about inflation,

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you have to think about it in the cumulative sense.

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I mean, I know you know that,

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But these 3% numbers, these are cumulative.

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And all of this is just getting worse because the situation with Iran, the situation with energy, the conflict is taking this problem that has been brewing really for a while now, but especially since 2008 and then really since COVID.

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And then you just anything that happens, it immediately adds pressure to this.

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So wars don't become kinetic wars now.

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They become financial wars.

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Truck drivers, well, they're facing a huge increase in diesel costs.

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You know, they're in trouble here.

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Triumph CEO Aaron Graff joins us.

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Aaron, your company is one of the largest transportation payment networks in North America.

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So will you tell me, how much more expensive is it to move freight today compared to one year ago?

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Thanks for having me.

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The cost is 67% on a gallon of diesel.

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In one year?

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Could you imagine if your personal expenses or your business expenses increased by 67% in a year?

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Cost is up 67% on a gallon of diesel.

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Now, practically speaking, what that means is for a trucker to fill up their truck,

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it's costing them $600 more today than it was a year ago.

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Holy crap.

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Is there anything you can do about that?

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What could he do?

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I don't know if there's anything I can do.

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The administration certainly has tried to do something with this recent announcement.

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And everyone realizes it's a problem.

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And everyone realizes that higher diesel costs translate into higher transportation costs.

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But an announcement that we're going to use red dye diesel, which removes federal excise taxes, among other things,

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doesn't actually change the fuel distribution network

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to where these truckers could efficiently get fuel

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that is cheaper than they can get currently.

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See, this is why I said a couple of weeks ago

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the Trump administration would pull an energy rabbit out of their hat.

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I don't think removing the restrictions on red dye diesel is it.

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The distribution of red dye diesel is just going to be extremely complicated.

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And you'd have to get it in all of the truck stop pumps.

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They'd have to be willing to have all of their systems stained.

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I whatever. I don't think that's the rabbit. Speaking of the CPI report, though, gasoline jumped 9.1 percent in September and accumulated for roughly half of the 0.6 percent CPI increase.

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So I think more of the rabbit that I was inferring to when I said they'd have to pull an energy rabbit out of their hat is this deal that the Trump administration has made with Russia, which is absolutely wild.

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And the exact kind of rabbit I was thinking they might have to pull.

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I wanted to switch gears and ask you about this decision by President Trump to ease Russian sanctions to get more diesel fuel onto the market Obviously it been kind of there been a lot of reaction to that You have a lot of reaction from Europe which is kind of comical because they of course

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have been buying Russian oil and gas for years now.

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And it's without, you know, unstintingly.

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You're going to also get some political blowback in Congress.

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And you're going to have a lot of people in Congress saying you can't do this because

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of the Lindsey Graham bill.

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How are you all going to navigate that problem?

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See, this is my thinking. But you remember, perhaps if you're paying attention a couple of weeks ago, they floated the idea of suspending diesel exports. Didn't go very well. And I wonder if this was plan B.

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Well, first of all, we're going to do it with all the legal authorities we have.

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So, you know, anyone in Congress who says whether it's an old bill or the current Lindsey Graham bill prohibits us from doing it is wrong.

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And look, President Trump, they came into office with a mandate to work for the American people.

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And this is good for the American people.

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And, you know, bringing these diesel prices down and to go back to Iran.

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Let's just be clear. The biggest loser here is the Iranian regime because they tried to have a choke point on the straighter for moats. That didn't work. They tried to have a choke point on diesel prices. Now that's not working.

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Well, it is working. The U.S. has options now. The U.S. is opening up options, but it doesn't save it for the ever. It doesn't solve it for the rest of the energy market. It doesn't solve it for the rest of the world, which will continue to put pressure on the overall energy market. So it's it's, I guess, going, well, we'll get to how much it's going to help.

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That didn't work. They tried to have a choke point on diesel prices. Now that's not working. And Charlie, it's just as you said, the Europeans have given the Russians more money since the start of this war than they have given the Ukrainians because they cannot wean themselves off Russian energy.

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They had a failed energy policy and Vladimir Putin, they continue to fund him.

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So for them to say that we cannot have a respite in diesel pricing is completely hypocritical.

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Buffalo Besson coming in hot right there.

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But I think you really got to ask yourself how much of this Russian oil really makes an impact.

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The Trump administration might end up finding it's not worth all of the trouble.

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Maybe it's more of a symbolic thing.

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But even with a wild deal like this, it's not convincing really anyone long term.

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And it's especially not convincing the bond market.

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This year, an important psychological line for investors has been crossed.

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What we've seen is yields across lots of different maturities of U.S. government bonds soaring past 5%.

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5% may not seem like much, but yields are climbing to levels not seen in decades.

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And they show no sign of going down.

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We saw the 30-year yield go past 5%.

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Then it was the 10-year yield going past 5%.

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More recently, we saw the five-year going past 5%.

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These are really striking levels.

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The issue is that the US is just so dependent on issuing bonds to fund the economy.

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But the more issues, the more borrowing costs are going up.

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It just creates this really vicious cycle.

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So why exactly are bond yields so high?

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Well, one reason is because there's a global sell-off happening.

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A big one.

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You're seeing it in US high yield.

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You're seeing it in French bonds.

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You're seeing it in Italian bonds.

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You see this going on in the ECB right now, too,

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because France is having its own problems

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and their bonds rates are going higher.

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Investors continue to climb the proverbial wall of worry

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with oil prices above $100,

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re-escalating tensions between the U.S. and Iran,

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bond yields rising.

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And the U.S. has arguably been at the center of all of that.

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There's loads of competing supply in the market

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from AI companies, which are issuing billions and billions

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and billions of dollars in terms of debt.

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That creates competition for the US government,

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so that's another factor that's driving up bond yields.

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In this competitive market,

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investors are looking for the most return on their money.

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Remember, a bond is like an IOU that comes with an annual fee,

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or yield, that you pay in order to borrow that money.

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Meanwhile, another key player is the Federal Reserve.

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How it manages inflation also figures into the bond market.

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So we came into this year broadly expecting interest rate cuts from the Federal Reserve,

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but when war broke out in the Middle East in late February, that just completely changed

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that narrative.

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So we saw energy prices shoot up, so oil, gas, diesel.

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That created this whole new wave of concern that we're going to see a load more inflation

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coming our way.

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In times of high inflation, the purchasing value of a dollar is less, driving yields

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higher as investors demand more to lend.

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This is why the Trump administration has wanted the Federal Reserve to lower rates.

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But lowering rates now reduces the power of that lever in the future, should the Fed need it.

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Growth is actually pretty resilient in the U.S.

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That's another reason why the Federal Reserve really can't justify cutting interest rates from here,

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however much President Trump might want them to.

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Bond yields trickle out into the economy.

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Mortgage rates will remain elevated, as well as interest rates on consumer loans.

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This means less economic activity in general, and the effects can circle back to Wall Street.

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The higher that yields and borrowing costs go, the more pressure there is on stocks.

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The longer we see a sell-off in bond markets, the pressure is just cranking up in the equity market,

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and at some point, maybe that starts to crack as well.

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Maybe you don't invest yourself, but maybe you have a pension.

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Well, that pension would be invested in bonds and equities,

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So what's happening in the bond market really matters to your financial future.

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It's a tenuous situation for the U.S. government, which continues to spend money it just doesn't have.

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It needs to borrow a huge amount of money.

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And that means that as yields go higher, the cost of servicing that debt just increases.

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Bonds are typically meant to be your super safe investment.

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The U.S. is edging kind of along this precipice.

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And at some point, it might not be this year, it might not even be next year, but the U.S. is on an unsustainable path.

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with the news of the cpi being up and just inflation being as sticky as it is the squeeze

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is on the fed to raise rates and keep at least rates up which in turn has put the squeeze on

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the bond market and on bitcoin well jim david i'm hearing everything you're saying but you know let's

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look at the market here for just one second i mean you've got the 10-year up to 5.3 percent now

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It's up nine and change, nine and change bips this morning.

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Only 11 of the economists in Bloomberg survey of 73 thought we were going to see a 0.3 month over month on the core.

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So clearly the market is looking at this data and trading off of it.

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Are they right, David?

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I mean, is the market just trying to, you know, basically throw anything up on the wall?

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And it's just basically, you know, I mean, what do you think?

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Where's the market?

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For today, for today, the market is right.

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As you just said, you got a 0.3.

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Mark was looking for 0.2 on core.

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I am not a big inflationist, and I thought 0.2 was actually sitting the bar pretty low.

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I think it's an outsized reaction.

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I don't think this puts the Fed back in play for the next meeting, but it probably raises the odds for December.

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However, it doesn't alter my fundamental view because I take, it comes down to what Tom Keene asked at the beginning about my inflation approach.

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I take a top-down view towards inflation.

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And today's reaction is natural in the bond market.

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Do I think that it's a little extreme?

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Right.

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Because you missed by 0.1.

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Is that worth nine basis points?

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Well, not really.

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But it just shows you, you know, how the market was positioned.

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We were down like two beeps before the number.

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Beeps.

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The pressure is on for the Fed, though, when it comes to rates.

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And if they do raise rates twice this year, that's not good for Bitcoin.

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Not for our Q4 recovery that everybody has been banking on.

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And I don't really know what this tells us, but behind the scenes, there was a quiet story this week. I don't even know if I would have noticed it if Buffalo Besson hadn't tweeted it directly. But he's directly hired someone that suggests one of two things to me. And I'm going to get to that after the clip. But I want you to meet Buffalo Besson's most recent hire, former Fed board pick Judy Shelton. And just listen to what Judy has to say regarding Trump's fight with J-Pow.

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This was back in January and it gives you a flavor of where Judy's at.

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Well, it's now a former Trump Fed board nominee, Judy Shelton.

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She a senior fellow at the Independent Institute And I wanted to get some of your comments Judy based on what we been talking about for I guess it just this week

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It happened over the weekend with the overbuilding or the renovation, cost overruns, et cetera, et cetera.

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That's not your main gripe, is it, with the state of the current Fed and with Jay Powell's tenure, or the tenure even goes back before that?

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You have other gripes. Well, I think if we're going to look at the Fed's accountability

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or price stability, that alone deserves scrutiny. And the actions of the Fed need to be challenged.

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Nobody got fired for 8.6 percent on the CPI. They haven't hit their target in years. And we have

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someone at the Federal Reserve who who cannot be fired ever by anyone. That's not accountability.

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So I think this confrontation between the Federal Reserve and the White House needs to be played out. I applaud the president for shaking things up because the Fed has become too powerful, too prominent and way too political. And it's about time that we start saying, what does it mean to be responsible for price stability?

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Okay. So to recap, we have a Halloween's brew of energy market issues. Raising consumer inflation prices across the West, bond issues across the West, pressure for the Fed to raise rates, and the U.S. Treasury seemingly taking steps to maintain fiscal dominance, both in what they're doing with the bond market and with this new hire, which to me suggests one of two things.

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Buffalo Besson is about to go to war with Warsh, the Federal Reserve Chair, or we're watching a little bit of WWEK fab here.

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You know what I'm saying?

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Like Besson and Warsh are playing bitter rivals in public, working at odds with each other, which is a temporary strategy, while backstage, they're working from the same script.

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I mean, they're having lunch once a week.

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It's just, I think you have to look at this as through the lens of fiscal dominance here.

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And if this is the case, then who is the one that's actually writing the script that they're

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following?

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Is it Besson?

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I think it might be.

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But it's a fair question to ask.

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And with all this going on, why isn't Bitcoin at 60K?

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Why is it holding 80K and kind of bouncing around there right now?

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I think there's possibly two answers to that as well.

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People who understand Bitcoin already, they're holding now because this is the moment Bitcoin

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was built for.

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Bitcoin.

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This is what it was built for this moment.

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these kinds of macro fractures happening?

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I think the other answer is a bit more obvious

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because that one's a little nebulous.

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It's hard to really say.

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The other answer is more obvious.

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For those who don't get what Bitcoin's purpose is,

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they see these two things, Bitcoin and the bond market,

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as two totally separate markets.

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So when there's chaos in one,

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it doesn't necessarily affect the other.

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So with more institutions adding Bitcoin to their portfolios,

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I mean, where's the money come from?

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How does that change the way they're allocating capital across other things like equities, fixed income?

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So I think a lot of it initially comes from risk capital.

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So from equities, from tech, I think very little of it comes from bonds because bonds is viewed as the capital preservation, low volatility, and Bitcoin does not have low volatility.

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And so it does come from risk assets.

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And I think part of the drawdown this year was this rotation of risk capital from Bitcoin and crypto to AI, which I know a lot of your guests have said quite a bit on your show about that.

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I do think that is slightly reversing now.

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And, you know, we're even seeing it at UTX.

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So a lot more investors, allocators willing to engage and talk about Bitcoin and where it goes from here.

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And it's one of those things where price kind of cures all, right?

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I think price drives the narrative and people trying to find the narrative.

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But as price moves, whether you like it or not, that gets more and more people interested.

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Here's something I've learned, because this is true in Linux and open source, just in general, when it comes to adoption, especially early on. Some things are happening at a grassroots level and there's no chart for it. You can't you can't really track it. You have investors, individual investors, family offices, businesses opting out of the bond market and they're buying Bitcoin. And the only places that really shows up is when these companies involved like Striker River share stats and data with us.

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Well, on October 8th, River published a report showing that businesses already own 8% of all Bitcoin.

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And the businesses have added 193,000 Bitcoin so far in 2026, making them the largest buyers of Bitcoin for the second straight year.

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Now, what I think is impressive about that number and that they are such a large buyer still is this is happening while Bitcoin miners became large net sellers to fund their AI initiatives.

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They're Bitcoin companies, and they've been selling something like 35,000 Bitcoin.

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And you've also had a washing out of the Bitcoin treasury market.

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Several Bitcoin treasury companies, including Saylor, sold Bitcoin this year.

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And the actual number of these Bitcoin companies declined after a 6x increase last year.

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There's less of them this year buying Bitcoin, and they're buying less Bitcoin.

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And yet this number still went up.

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The total number of public companies holding Bitcoin

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has grown by 10% over the past year, River says.

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And for River's clients specifically,

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the real estate business continues to be their largest sector,

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followed by services and hospitality.

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I don't know if I really expected that.

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Real estate doesn't surprise me at all.

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But it surprises me that services and hospitality,

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maybe it's just a broad category,

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but they're the number two buyer in River's business pool.

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And what it says to me is more and more businesses

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are opting out of things like the bond market.

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they're buying Bitcoin. It's not a bad idea simply because if you look at the bond market,

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I mean, what do I know? But it seems like it's getting crowded out by a few biggies out there

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now. And as this stuff might seem a bit abstract for Bitcoiners, especially when you just think of

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like the basics around Bitcoin, 21 million, you know, like there's just some real basic

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fundamentals. And you look at the complexities of the bond market. It's like, why do we as

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Bitcoiners even need to care about this? But what I am trying to lay out for you here

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is that if you follow this and you understand this,

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not only does it help drive your conviction,

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but what I'm really laying out

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is where some of the next big sources of money and liquidity

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will flow from into the Bitcoin market.

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But with so much debt being taken up with AI,

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what does that leave for the rest?

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Those needing capital for things other than AI infrastructure,

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especially when yields overall

331
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have been steadily rising for all borrowers.

332
00:24:07,178 --> 00:24:15,399
Well, talking about those spreads or those yields, is there a noticeable difference between, on the one hand, AI borrowing and other corporate investment grade?

333
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AI borrowing is quite a lot.

334
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It might be crowding out some of the other investors who are coming into the market, but it really depends on what type of investor you're talking about.

335
00:24:26,619 --> 00:24:31,438
Some of the corporates that are trying to come to the market can wait for a little bit longer and issue next year.

336
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They're trying to evaluate the general level of yields right now and figure out if the opportunities are right for them.

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But, you know, the hyperscalers have their mandate.

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They're going to be issuing a lot this year, more to come next year.

339
00:24:43,639 --> 00:24:48,238
And they're a little bit, you know, I would say time agnostic, if you will.

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There are risks associated with AI, execution risk of a variety of sorts, whether it's power or it's resistance, community resistance.

341
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Also, concentration risk because there's just so much of it.

342
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Is that being reflected in the bond market so far for AI?

343
00:25:02,339 --> 00:25:07,619
That's a very good question, David, because I think that it's really hard to see that in the data as of yet.

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Like I just mentioned, I mean, some of the high yield names are starting to come under pressure.

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You are seeing investors being a little bit more discerning about where they put their money to work.

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But as of now, I think that the supply is being very well absorbed.

347
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It's not just AI debt that looks like it's growing to the sky.

348
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:32,119
AI companies are right alongside other corporate borrowers in competing with sovereign issuers

349
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as governments around the world contend with debt burdens that just keep growing higher

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with the inevitable move to higher yields.

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So there will be some as those yields go up that it becomes attractive,

352
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but there'll be others that don't want to participate in this market or issue the bonds.

353
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I think this is why we should be paying attention as Bitcoiners.

354
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Next income being the bridge between Wall Street and Bitcoin,

355
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Why the bond market and why is it important for understanding where future Bitcoin capital could come from So the bond market is the basis for how everything else is priced at the end of

356
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the day. And it gives us a sense of where we're going from a macro perspective, where interest

357
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is, where inflation is. The bond market is $300 trillion in size. And it's really the basis for

358
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everything of understanding the macro landscape. And so Bitcoin is a macro asset. And it's an asset

359
00:26:21,528 --> 00:26:27,568
that, in my opinion, will continue to grow at a very large rate, you know, much higher rate than

360
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equities or other risk assets. And I would say it's even shifting Bitcoin from being a risk asset,

361
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which I think a lot of people view it as, to really, we talk about this a lot on the team,

362
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it's really a credit default swap on monetary debasement. So it's protection against debasement,

363
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against money printing, against larger fiscal deficits, against larger debt loads.

364
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And so that's really why having an understanding of bonds and fixed income and the macro is so important to understanding Bitcoin and what it serves and what it helps.

365
00:27:00,308 --> 00:27:03,748
That was the head of investor relations at UTXO.

366
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So there you have it.

367
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I think that's why we should be paying attention to this.

368
00:27:07,848 --> 00:27:10,408
And there's one other area that I want to pay attention to.

369
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So I still want to get into bunker mode.

370
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You probably heard that going around this week.

371
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And a Bitcoin mining conspiracy that's afoot.

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That'll be in the update section.

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But something shifted this week, and I want to talk just briefly about Michael Saylor.

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At this point, it's pretty obvious.

375
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Higher borrowing costs put pressure on everyone who is trying to raise capital, and Saylor

376
00:27:37,108 --> 00:27:39,288
has been trying to raise a lot of capital.

377
00:27:39,728 --> 00:27:43,568
So what happens when your company strategy is built around stacking Bitcoin with debt?

378
00:27:44,108 --> 00:27:46,848
Well, owning that asset's one thing, of course.

379
00:27:46,848 --> 00:27:52,628
This financing stuff that they've done around it is a whole other thing that's developed recently.

380
00:27:53,728 --> 00:27:59,908
And Saylor has gone from never sell to sell as needed to support these sort of financial schemes around that.

381
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And if you bought MSTR stock early on when he first started doing this, I've been wondering, like, does this feel like a rug pull to you?

382
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Does this feel like the deal has changed?

383
00:28:09,808 --> 00:28:12,288
And I think these are the questions I've had and others have had.

384
00:28:12,988 --> 00:28:14,768
Saylor hasn't been on the air much recently.

385
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And he stopped by Bloomberg this week.

386
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And it all started rather nice and standard.

387
00:28:21,128 --> 00:28:22,608
Bitcoin had a great summer.

388
00:28:23,088 --> 00:28:26,448
Still, though, about 30% below last year's all-time highs.

389
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What is your view on where Bitcoin goes from here?

390
00:28:30,648 --> 00:28:32,868
Well, we think we're at the beginning of a bull market.

391
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We normally look at where Bitcoin is versus 200-week moving average.

392
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And we bounce slightly below it.

393
00:28:39,728 --> 00:28:42,348
Now we're moving up 25% premium.

394
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So the headwinds were restrictive trade policy, restrictive foreign policy, restrictive currency,

395
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our monetary policy.

396
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And now we're rotating into some tailwinds.

397
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We've got a very favorable regulatory environment.

398
00:28:59,128 --> 00:29:01,748
We've got banking adoption accelerating.

399
00:29:02,328 --> 00:29:07,008
We've got tokenized securities and the digital asset space accelerating.

400
00:29:07,648 --> 00:29:11,348
We've got the formation of and the strengthening of digital credit networks.

401
00:29:11,668 --> 00:29:14,368
All right. OK, so I don't know. He's like at a school in a hallway or something.

402
00:29:14,488 --> 00:29:19,168
I miss that part of it. But as the interview goes on, they start to ask harder and harder questions.

403
00:29:19,488 --> 00:29:22,828
And you might note that Michael seems to get more and more stressed.

404
00:29:22,828 --> 00:29:30,208
Hey, so, OK, Michael, new ideas. I get it. So if there's something there for everything, why did you guys actually sell some Bitcoin back in June?

405
00:29:30,268 --> 00:29:34,188
It was just a handful. Bitcoin was trading at around seventy three thousand dollars.

406
00:29:34,188 --> 00:29:40,108
It kind of broke with your longstanding idea, recommendations to never part with Bitcoin.

407
00:29:40,708 --> 00:29:44,228
So it was a tiny amount, but do you regret doing that?

408
00:29:44,308 --> 00:29:49,368
And why sell in the first place if you think that it kind of makes sense in multiple environments?

409
00:29:50,268 --> 00:29:53,648
The way to think of our company is we're a structured finance company.

410
00:29:53,848 --> 00:29:57,768
So on any given day, we might buy Bitcoin or sell Bitcoin.

411
00:29:58,028 --> 00:30:00,308
We might buy dollars or sell dollars.

412
00:30:00,488 --> 00:30:02,768
We might buy equity or sell equity.

413
00:30:02,768 --> 00:30:05,028
We could sell MSTR or buy it back.

414
00:30:05,468 --> 00:30:08,128
I mean, that just sounds really, I don't know, unpredictable.

415
00:30:08,548 --> 00:30:10,948
I guess the idea is those to maintain the dividend.

416
00:30:11,648 --> 00:30:12,728
OK, see if you can follow it.

417
00:30:12,928 --> 00:30:15,108
We might buy credit, STRC.

418
00:30:15,268 --> 00:30:16,248
We might sell it.

419
00:30:16,648 --> 00:30:25,508
To the extent that we can swap equity for capital, capital for cash, cash for our securities

420
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or back for credit, then we can arbitrage any opportunity in the equity, credit or capital

421
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markets to the benefit of our shareholders. If we were to take the position that we will never

422
00:30:36,068 --> 00:30:40,748
sell the equity or we will never sell the capital or we will never sell the credit,

423
00:30:40,948 --> 00:30:46,508
we actually degrade the value of the company. So I think he's talking about Bitcoin in there.

424
00:30:46,508 --> 00:30:51,548
I don't know. The context of this interview is MSCI. I've mentioned this before,

425
00:30:51,688 --> 00:30:56,528
is considering if businesses like strategy should be in their index or should be kicked out.

426
00:30:56,528 --> 00:31:03,308
And so that's really the thing that I think is stressing Michael out and is sort of the elephant in the room around this interview.

427
00:31:03,308 --> 00:31:13,288
At issue, though, is the question of whether you or not you are a, quote, operating business rather than engaged in accumulating assets.

428
00:31:13,868 --> 00:31:16,768
Where do you view strategy is?

429
00:31:16,928 --> 00:31:18,088
It's a silly notion, right?

430
00:31:18,088 --> 00:31:25,428
Because insurance companies and banks, it's a silly notion because insurance companies and banks have assets and they're operating businesses.

431
00:31:25,428 --> 00:31:38,028
And if MSCI decided that insurance company financial assets were non-operating or the bank's assets were non-operating, then they would exclude every insurance company, every bank, and half the oil and gas businesses from the index.

432
00:31:38,248 --> 00:31:45,188
But insurance companies, to be fair, provide a service other than accumulating assets in the case of making a payout.

433
00:31:45,628 --> 00:31:47,068
They provide a service to customers.

434
00:31:47,068 --> 00:31:49,608
Yeah, the product of the—yeah, can I answer?

435
00:31:49,748 --> 00:31:49,888
Please.

436
00:31:49,888 --> 00:31:52,608
The product of the insurance company is the insurance policy.

437
00:31:52,608 --> 00:32:07,728
And the product of the bank is banks buy credit. Our product is digital credit. So we sell a product, it pays 10 to 12 percent dividend yield. The insurance company sells you an insurance policy or an annuity. Right.

438
00:32:07,728 --> 00:32:10,008
So all of these are finance companies.

439
00:32:10,008 --> 00:32:11,648
They're selling financial products.

440
00:32:11,728 --> 00:32:12,988
They're operating companies.

441
00:32:12,988 --> 00:32:13,988
They're in the index.

442
00:32:14,148 --> 00:32:18,868
So the thing that many people miss is the digital credit is the product.

443
00:32:18,868 --> 00:32:24,548
And you need an operating business that's actively managing its capital to create a product.

444
00:32:24,828 --> 00:32:28,548
Nobody doubts that JP Morgan is an operating company and they do stuff.

445
00:32:28,748 --> 00:32:31,308
Nobody doubts that AIG is an operating company.

446
00:32:31,408 --> 00:32:32,128
They do stuff.

447
00:32:32,848 --> 00:32:36,448
Nobody doubts any finance company as an operating company.

448
00:32:36,448 --> 00:32:59,508
You have to do things with the capital. We're not a holding company. We're doing things with the capital, right? You just went into detail about how people were having an apoplectic fit about us doing things with 32 Bitcoin. The thing that we were doing was backing the credit. The credit is the product. And we've found a way to create the world's best credit and do it with the world's best capital.

449
00:32:59,508 --> 00:33:17,168
So we are an operating company. That's not really a debate in the accounting profession. The accountants agree. The SEC filings agree. Under SEC law, that's very, very clear. MSCI is out on their own on this one. I don't know why, but again, it's not my decision.

450
00:33:17,168 --> 00:33:40,868
Well, I think we get a minor update on Friday, so I'm sure he'll be paying attention to that. But I have a question for you. Did you buy MSTR stock or another Bitcoin treasury company? No judgment zone. I just want to know what your current thoughts are. Do you feel rugged? Do you feel like it's positioned for a managed moonshot? Boosted and let me know. I'd like to know. And then also I have a question for the rest of you out there. Who are you using to DCA these days?

451
00:33:40,868 --> 00:33:42,968
I think I'm going to bail on Fold.

452
00:33:43,508 --> 00:33:45,188
They've taken a disappointing turn,

453
00:33:45,428 --> 00:33:49,128
and I need to rework my whole setup from bill pay to stacking.

454
00:33:49,508 --> 00:33:51,248
I'm considering maybe, you know,

455
00:33:51,408 --> 00:33:54,688
trying to rework my workflow around Strike potentially,

456
00:33:54,968 --> 00:33:56,428
but I'm wondering if there's other options out there.

457
00:33:56,508 --> 00:34:00,268
So if you have any advice, boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com.

458
00:34:00,528 --> 00:34:04,828
And I'll cover my thoughts on Fold in the update section coming up in just a bit.

459
00:34:06,788 --> 00:34:10,368
But first, we got to get to some of your support.

460
00:34:10,868 --> 00:34:27,208
I'll take just a quick moment to say you can support the show by stacking sats if you want

461
00:34:27,208 --> 00:34:31,508
to buy your sats on river I got a link in the show notes the bitcoin well is a fantastic self

462
00:34:31,508 --> 00:34:36,988
custody platform for Canada or the US and they support lightning like a champ speaking of lighting

463
00:34:37,022 --> 00:34:41,662
DCA loans all of that and their new stacks feature lets you have sub wallets

464
00:34:41,662 --> 00:34:43,922
I got a link if you want to support the show with strike

465
00:34:43,922 --> 00:34:47,562
We also have a link to the Bitcoin company if you want to spend your Bitcoin

466
00:34:47,562 --> 00:34:50,062
Go from sats to a gift card in seconds over the lightning network

467
00:34:50,062 --> 00:34:53,982
And a shout out to salt one of the OGs in the lending space

468
00:34:53,982 --> 00:34:56,342
Get access to your Bitcoin value without having to sell it

469
00:34:56,342 --> 00:35:01,142
And with some liquidation protections as well in case we get some of that volatility

470
00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:03,342
Links to all of that are in the show notes

471
00:35:03,342 --> 00:35:06,842
A quick easy way to support the show just by doing what you do

472
00:35:06,842 --> 00:35:18,802
let's get to some boosts and seven boosts to go because we did have some people support the show

473
00:35:18,802 --> 00:35:24,162
directly with some value for value and the muso comes in as our sat baller booster with 60 000

474
00:35:24,162 --> 00:35:37,562
sats all right boys oh my goodness oh my goodness this is a long one but he's boosting and tell me

475
00:35:37,562 --> 00:35:42,542
about the sato chip smart card app that lets you use a smart card like a password vault interesting

476
00:35:42,542 --> 00:35:45,962
he says chris it's been a while and life happens i'm sure you're aware and got behind on shows i

477
00:35:45,962 --> 00:35:48,942
finally caught up and i thought i'd share a direction i've decided to go with regards to

478
00:35:48,942 --> 00:35:53,982
my hardware wallet it's a fork of seed signer called shield signer that supports smart cards

479
00:35:53,982 --> 00:35:56,602
that comply with the Java card specification.

480
00:35:56,842 --> 00:35:58,882
Ah, so that's where Satochip and Keycard come in.

481
00:35:59,482 --> 00:35:59,882
Interesting.

482
00:36:00,782 --> 00:36:03,222
Satochip in particular also has another smart card app

483
00:36:03,222 --> 00:36:05,242
that lets you use smart card-like password vault.

484
00:36:05,602 --> 00:36:06,162
I love that.

485
00:36:06,422 --> 00:36:08,782
All these smart card apps let you use a pin for security,

486
00:36:08,982 --> 00:36:11,642
and all of this is managed within the Shield signer fork,

487
00:36:11,942 --> 00:36:13,762
even going so far as allowing you to load

488
00:36:13,762 --> 00:36:15,462
and unlock compliant smart cards

489
00:36:15,462 --> 00:36:16,782
with the app that you want to use

490
00:36:16,782 --> 00:36:19,462
without the need of a computer or downloading extra software.

491
00:36:19,862 --> 00:36:21,642
To me, this solves the supply chain problem

492
00:36:21,642 --> 00:36:23,482
with readily available hardware

493
00:36:23,482 --> 00:36:25,062
that can be used for many different things,

494
00:36:25,342 --> 00:36:26,602
as well as an audible software

495
00:36:26,602 --> 00:36:27,822
that runs the signing device

496
00:36:27,822 --> 00:36:29,762
and on a secure element.

497
00:36:30,402 --> 00:36:31,022
Thanks for the show.

498
00:36:31,082 --> 00:36:32,142
Twib is where it's all at for me

499
00:36:32,142 --> 00:36:33,042
in Bitcoin-related news.

500
00:36:33,422 --> 00:36:34,862
Wow, that is interesting to me.

501
00:36:34,862 --> 00:36:36,082
So I love the idea

502
00:36:36,082 --> 00:36:39,042
of using the Java card specification smart cards

503
00:36:39,042 --> 00:36:40,122
because there's so many of those.

504
00:36:40,182 --> 00:36:40,942
And like you say, software,

505
00:36:41,062 --> 00:36:42,282
like those apples to interact with it.

506
00:36:42,722 --> 00:36:44,062
Take advantage of the fact

507
00:36:44,062 --> 00:36:45,082
that the corporations have

508
00:36:45,082 --> 00:36:46,862
basically mass produced those.

509
00:36:47,042 --> 00:36:48,582
And thank you for being our sap baller.

510
00:36:49,162 --> 00:36:52,022
Landlock comes in with 35,000 Satoshis.

511
00:36:53,482 --> 00:36:58,382
Oh, I missed that big support episode.

512
00:36:58,502 --> 00:37:02,182
So here's mine shaking my Albie wallet up and down over your desk.

513
00:37:02,822 --> 00:37:03,702
Nice visualization.

514
00:37:04,562 --> 00:37:08,042
What are you going to do for your Bitcoin now that Nick's Bitcoin is no longer supported?

515
00:37:08,262 --> 00:37:10,662
Oh, that hurts.

516
00:37:11,282 --> 00:37:14,522
I could probably keep it going myself with the help of AI, but it seems sensitive to

517
00:37:14,522 --> 00:37:15,782
Vibe shape it every so often.

518
00:37:16,142 --> 00:37:16,642
Keep the great show.

519
00:37:16,702 --> 00:37:18,242
The macro and Bitcoin connections are always interesting.

520
00:37:19,002 --> 00:37:22,082
I am, what I am doing is for the most part, right?

521
00:37:22,082 --> 00:37:23,642
In the meantime, you're just updating your packages.

522
00:37:24,362 --> 00:37:25,302
Let's just be on those packages

523
00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:26,362
are getting updated in the repo

524
00:37:26,362 --> 00:37:27,182
and that doesn't change.

525
00:37:27,882 --> 00:37:31,462
But I am watching with much interest the forks

526
00:37:31,462 --> 00:37:33,582
and there are some interesting NixBitcoin forks.

527
00:37:34,142 --> 00:37:35,302
It's a tricky project

528
00:37:35,302 --> 00:37:37,682
because not a lot of demand for it, I imagine,

529
00:37:37,762 --> 00:37:39,922
but the people who understand why they need it and use it,

530
00:37:40,602 --> 00:37:43,502
boy, oh boy, I just, they are, I would,

531
00:37:43,842 --> 00:37:45,542
I think, you know what, I'll tell you this.

532
00:37:45,602 --> 00:37:46,002
I'll tell you this.

533
00:37:46,022 --> 00:37:47,702
We've had discussions about it ourselves internally.

534
00:37:48,382 --> 00:37:50,202
And if the fork never became viable,

535
00:37:51,082 --> 00:37:52,162
JB would maintain one.

536
00:37:52,382 --> 00:37:54,802
And then we would absolutely welcome people's efforts on that.

537
00:37:55,462 --> 00:37:57,062
So that is something we're considering,

538
00:37:57,142 --> 00:37:58,742
but I don't think it's going to come to that.

539
00:37:58,982 --> 00:37:59,542
I just don't.

540
00:38:00,002 --> 00:38:01,722
I think we're going to see people out there step up.

541
00:38:01,722 --> 00:38:03,642
Thanks, Landlocked, and keep thinking about it.

542
00:38:04,202 --> 00:38:08,442
Derivation Dingus comes in with 22,667 Satoshis.

543
00:38:08,882 --> 00:38:10,742
I don't think that's quite a McDuck boost,

544
00:38:11,142 --> 00:38:12,302
but it's certainly real.

545
00:38:12,462 --> 00:38:14,782
They're real, and they're spectacular.

546
00:38:15,142 --> 00:38:16,622
Derivation writes, another fantastic episode.

547
00:38:16,722 --> 00:38:17,722
Thanks for the value.

548
00:38:18,242 --> 00:38:20,182
I like all the different ideas for handling boost goals.

549
00:38:20,202 --> 00:38:23,502
I'm sure it's been brought up before and I don't remember, but have you considered doing Twib swag?

550
00:38:23,682 --> 00:38:24,642
I'd buy a Twib t-shirt.

551
00:38:25,142 --> 00:38:29,682
You know, I would love some swag myself just because mostly all my old swag is falling apart.

552
00:38:30,622 --> 00:38:33,522
It's getting old, but I don't know what to put on there.

553
00:38:33,942 --> 00:38:35,622
I'd like to do like sayings or something.

554
00:38:36,722 --> 00:38:38,322
This is where I suck as a business person.

555
00:38:38,842 --> 00:38:42,942
I need to have someone on the team that is dedicated to swag because my swag game sucks,

556
00:38:43,022 --> 00:38:47,802
especially when you consider I've got other shows, there's a network effect, and I'm not taking advantage of it.

557
00:38:47,802 --> 00:38:52,022
it's shameful and it's embarrassing and I feel bad.

558
00:38:52,022 --> 00:38:52,422
So,

559
00:38:52,622 --> 00:38:56,102
but I would love to figure it out because it would feel good to have some

560
00:38:56,102 --> 00:38:56,502
Twitter swag.

561
00:38:56,822 --> 00:38:57,122
Thank you,

562
00:38:57,162 --> 00:38:57,642
derivation.

563
00:38:58,102 --> 00:38:58,762
Appreciate you.

564
00:38:59,542 --> 00:39:05,022
Nat's immersions comes in that Nat gas immersions comes in with 22,203

565
00:39:05,022 --> 00:39:05,462
Satoshis.

566
00:39:05,542 --> 00:39:06,982
That's just about an Aflac.

567
00:39:07,122 --> 00:39:07,642
Aflac.

568
00:39:08,042 --> 00:39:08,322
Sup,

569
00:39:08,402 --> 00:39:08,622
Chris.

570
00:39:09,122 --> 00:39:11,602
Open source came up twice a week in last week's boost.

571
00:39:12,002 --> 00:39:14,162
Next week's show is 128 halfway to 256.

572
00:39:15,282 --> 00:39:15,802
Coincidence.

573
00:39:15,802 --> 00:39:21,122
have you seen 256f.org it's an open source non-profit for projects spanning the bitcoin

574
00:39:21,122 --> 00:39:29,122
stack p.s freesamurai.com yes freesamurai.com make it so indeed 256foundation.org bitcoin

575
00:39:29,122 --> 00:39:32,682
mining will be open source or bitcoin remains permissioned we're building the open source

576
00:39:32,682 --> 00:39:36,622
bitcoin mining stack i hadn't seen that thank you for this is why i love the freaking boosts

577
00:39:36,622 --> 00:39:42,902
i never know what i'm gonna get and it's stuff that just sometimes is outside my my uh all-seeing

578
00:39:42,902 --> 00:39:48,842
eye that apparently was not quite all seen. Thank you, Nat. Appreciate you. OB comes in with 21,000

579
00:39:48,842 --> 00:39:55,482
Satoshis. All right. So question, what's the word on the street from people you talk to in

580
00:39:55,482 --> 00:40:00,662
Norman Land about which way the election is going to go? I'm not an American. I think there's pretty

581
00:40:00,662 --> 00:40:05,962
strong consensus that the Democrats will probably win the Senate and the House. Definitely. Well,

582
00:40:05,962 --> 00:40:11,102
not definitely the House. Definitely. Maybe not. But I think there's pretty strong consensus there.

583
00:40:11,622 --> 00:40:19,642
My concern with that scenario is it puts Elizabeth Warren in a position of authority when it comes to banking related issues on the banking committee.

584
00:40:20,082 --> 00:40:28,822
And she has her own version of Clarity Act that at least at one point, I don't know if it's still in there, but at one point had a draft that seemed pretty anti self custody.

585
00:40:29,362 --> 00:40:33,382
So it'd really be a shame if she started working on a new version of the Clarity Act.

586
00:40:33,642 --> 00:40:35,002
So I'm keeping an eye on that, Obi.

587
00:40:36,262 --> 00:40:40,182
DJW comes in with 20,156 satushers.

588
00:40:41,102 --> 00:40:48,162
Sending value and shouting out our local Bitcoin Mining Conference happening this November,

589
00:40:48,322 --> 00:40:50,782
the 20th through the 21st in Fort Worth, Texas.

590
00:40:50,982 --> 00:40:56,462
Go to bitblockmine.com for more information and lots of AI-generated artwork.

591
00:40:56,842 --> 00:40:57,622
Thanks for what you do.

592
00:40:57,862 --> 00:40:59,682
Y'all be good, DJW.

593
00:40:59,982 --> 00:41:00,982
Love it.

594
00:41:01,342 --> 00:41:07,622
Bitcoin Mining Conference, November 20th through the 21st, Fort Worth, Texas, bitblockmine.com.

595
00:41:07,982 --> 00:41:09,282
Let me know how it goes, DJW.

596
00:41:09,482 --> 00:41:10,482
I'd love to hear it.

597
00:41:10,482 --> 00:41:15,582
Hey, Mary Oscar, Mr. Fountain FM is here with 20,000 Satoshis.

598
00:41:17,462 --> 00:41:19,282
I rounded up a little bit there for you.

599
00:41:19,362 --> 00:41:21,202
No message, just value, I think.

600
00:41:22,102 --> 00:41:22,482
I hope.

601
00:41:22,922 --> 00:41:23,642
Thanks, Oscar.

602
00:41:23,882 --> 00:41:24,662
Good to hear from you.

603
00:41:25,062 --> 00:41:27,442
Dash Dummy is here with 20,000 Satoshis.

604
00:41:27,882 --> 00:41:28,282
Boost!

605
00:41:29,202 --> 00:41:31,722
Seems we are in a new era of hardware wallet hacks.

606
00:41:31,842 --> 00:41:33,362
Although Ledger was an isolated incident,

607
00:41:33,442 --> 00:41:35,442
it does make one wonder more about how safe

608
00:41:35,442 --> 00:41:37,142
all these hardware devices really are.

609
00:41:37,422 --> 00:41:39,002
Are you better off having a different trust setup?

610
00:41:39,002 --> 00:41:43,622
combination of software and hardware feels like a game of whack-a-mole to me yeah dash dummy i'm

611
00:41:43,622 --> 00:41:47,362
going to talk about the ledger thing in the updates but i i know what you mean i follow you

612
00:41:47,362 --> 00:41:51,662
i think a lot of people's answer right now is multi-vendor self-custody that's a little more

613
00:41:51,662 --> 00:41:57,782
complicated and then i think the quiet answer that a lot of people in bitcoin just opted with is just

614
00:41:57,782 --> 00:42:03,662
go to the etfs which i'm not advocating i don't think this is an impossible problem to solve it's

615
00:42:03,662 --> 00:42:08,002
a difficult one especially for this period of time but i'm hopeful that we emerge on the other side

616
00:42:08,002 --> 00:42:09,562
of these AI-assisted attacks

617
00:42:09,562 --> 00:42:11,142
with even more secure hardware

618
00:42:11,142 --> 00:42:11,902
and better options.

619
00:42:12,682 --> 00:42:13,582
But we are definitely

620
00:42:13,582 --> 00:42:15,142
in the unknown zone of that,

621
00:42:15,322 --> 00:42:16,382
the neutral zone of that,

622
00:42:16,422 --> 00:42:16,722
if you will.

623
00:42:16,842 --> 00:42:17,222
Thanks, dummy.

624
00:42:17,782 --> 00:42:18,302
Appreciate you.

625
00:42:18,922 --> 00:42:19,902
User 26 is here

626
00:42:19,902 --> 00:42:22,282
with 2,345 Satoshis.

627
00:42:22,742 --> 00:42:23,142
Boost!

628
00:42:23,342 --> 00:42:24,982
Yes, and why not a Scotty, too?

629
00:42:25,142 --> 00:42:26,422
That's not possible.

630
00:42:26,562 --> 00:42:27,502
Nothing can do that.

631
00:42:27,542 --> 00:42:28,242
Throw him in there, too.

632
00:42:28,322 --> 00:42:29,002
Axel Rogg says,

633
00:42:29,262 --> 00:42:30,642
Psyduck, take me out

634
00:42:30,642 --> 00:42:31,962
with the oldest Nintendo soundbite

635
00:42:31,962 --> 00:42:32,662
from my childhood.

636
00:42:32,842 --> 00:42:34,002
All right, all right, all right.

637
00:42:34,342 --> 00:42:35,062
How about this one?

638
00:42:35,082 --> 00:42:35,642
I really don't get

639
00:42:35,642 --> 00:42:36,382
to play this very much.

640
00:42:38,002 --> 00:42:43,722
Thank you very much.

641
00:42:43,802 --> 00:42:44,382
Appreciate you.

642
00:42:44,762 --> 00:42:47,062
Paranoid Coder is here with 2,000 sats.

643
00:42:47,842 --> 00:42:49,242
No message, just value.

644
00:42:49,422 --> 00:42:51,962
And WTF is here with 2,600 sats.

645
00:42:51,982 --> 00:42:53,382
Coming in hot with the boost.

646
00:42:53,862 --> 00:42:55,162
When Lynn speaks, I listen.

647
00:42:55,282 --> 00:42:58,982
Two thoughts on the local Bitcoiners pod maintains a ranker type roster.

648
00:42:59,422 --> 00:43:00,322
Pretty sure it's on GitHub.

649
00:43:00,322 --> 00:43:04,742
And B, I've doubled my streaming sats to your show and a couple of others.

650
00:43:05,322 --> 00:43:06,222
It's setting in a fountain.

651
00:43:06,222 --> 00:43:08,882
is a setting in Fountain

652
00:43:08,882 --> 00:43:09,542
that's modifiable

653
00:43:09,542 --> 00:43:10,282
for individual shows.

654
00:43:10,382 --> 00:43:10,482
Cheers.

655
00:43:10,702 --> 00:43:21,148
Ah yes Thank you very much I appreciate that He a good guy He a real good guy No he a great guy Yeah he a great guy Thank you WTF Anonymous is here with 2 Satoshers

656
00:43:22,188 --> 00:43:22,908
Go Sox.

657
00:43:22,988 --> 00:43:23,348
Nice hat.

658
00:43:23,488 --> 00:43:24,208
Ha, ha, ha.

659
00:43:24,448 --> 00:43:26,328
Hey, man, if that hat gets me a boost, I'll do it.

660
00:43:26,368 --> 00:43:26,928
Thanks, Anonymous.

661
00:43:27,468 --> 00:43:29,488
T is here with 10,000 Satoshis.

662
00:43:29,608 --> 00:43:31,328
It's over 9,000!

663
00:43:32,008 --> 00:43:35,308
It'd be interesting, but I would spend much time coming up with a benchmark for support.

664
00:43:35,368 --> 00:43:36,208
I wouldn't.

665
00:43:36,208 --> 00:43:37,048
I wouldn't spend much time.

666
00:43:37,108 --> 00:43:38,788
It's too subjective, and it'll change over time.

667
00:43:38,788 --> 00:43:44,248
I think your audience just wants to know what you're happy with and the value you're receiving for time and your value that you've been providing.

668
00:43:44,548 --> 00:43:45,168
Sounds familiar.

669
00:43:45,688 --> 00:43:48,928
You know, T, so he's referring to the goal and the benchmark.

670
00:43:49,408 --> 00:43:50,828
Yeah, it'd have to be dynamic if I did something.

671
00:43:50,968 --> 00:43:52,268
You raise a good point.

672
00:43:52,368 --> 00:43:53,308
You raise a good point.

673
00:43:53,468 --> 00:43:54,088
This is the way.

674
00:43:54,148 --> 00:43:54,808
Thanks for boosting in.

675
00:43:55,328 --> 00:43:57,868
Code 27 is here with 4,500 sats.

676
00:43:57,988 --> 00:43:59,288
The traders love the vol.

677
00:43:59,428 --> 00:44:00,608
No message, just value.

678
00:44:00,708 --> 00:44:01,788
Thank you very much.

679
00:44:02,208 --> 00:44:04,868
And user 54 is here with 4,000 sats.

680
00:44:05,028 --> 00:44:05,548
Danger zone.

681
00:44:05,708 --> 00:44:06,788
No message, just value.

682
00:44:06,788 --> 00:44:08,348
and Ace Ackerman is here, thank you,

683
00:44:08,588 --> 00:44:11,308
with a row of ducks, 2,222 sats.

684
00:44:12,248 --> 00:44:13,288
And Ace says,

685
00:44:13,448 --> 00:44:13,928
Boost!

686
00:44:14,308 --> 00:44:15,728
Thank you, Ace, appreciate ya.

687
00:44:16,408 --> 00:44:16,788
Vince,

688
00:44:18,028 --> 00:44:18,788
Vince-a-ton?

689
00:44:18,928 --> 00:44:22,628
No, nope, comes in with 9,788 satoshis.

690
00:44:22,808 --> 00:44:23,528
Hey, go!

691
00:44:24,288 --> 00:44:25,188
Better late than never,

692
00:44:25,328 --> 00:44:26,808
finally got the subscription set up.

693
00:44:26,888 --> 00:44:28,828
Oh, awesome, between work, household projects,

694
00:44:28,948 --> 00:44:29,508
four kids,

695
00:44:29,848 --> 00:44:31,368
and revolving door of daycare illness,

696
00:44:31,508 --> 00:44:33,088
oh my God, I know.

697
00:44:33,728 --> 00:44:35,748
I have managed to get my boosting affairs in order.

698
00:44:35,748 --> 00:44:36,528
Thank you for your efforts.

699
00:44:36,528 --> 00:44:46,028
keep up the good work. Vince, man, I feel every, every single word of that boost. Thank you very

700
00:44:46,028 --> 00:44:56,008
much. You are a tough little ship. Colorado Snow is here with 2,500 Satoshis. Great show once again.

701
00:44:56,108 --> 00:45:01,188
Thank you, Snow. Appreciate you. And Gene Bean's here with a row of ducks. So what you think about

702
00:45:01,188 --> 00:45:09,148
umbral 2.0 i should give it a go i i will admit gene i i saw it and i i passed over it because

703
00:45:09,148 --> 00:45:13,948
i'm just sort of so in the mode of migrating off of umbral but i should give him a fair shake and

704
00:45:13,948 --> 00:45:17,628
if anybody out there including eugene has had a chance to try it and wants to steer me let me know

705
00:45:17,628 --> 00:45:23,128
let me know what you think thanks gene i should put it on the list let me know what you if you've

706
00:45:23,128 --> 00:45:29,948
tried it kiwi bitcoin guides here with 4 567 satoshis why you got to put numbers and letters

707
00:45:29,948 --> 00:45:34,908
together why can't you just go yourself i have no deep and probing questions this week other than

708
00:45:34,908 --> 00:45:39,628
to ask what's that sound clip you play with the guy chuckling you know the one laughing

709
00:45:40,668 --> 00:45:41,468
i've always wondered that

710
00:45:43,948 --> 00:45:48,028
ah yes that's part of our jeff goldblum collection 10 goldblums out of impossible

711
00:45:48,028 --> 00:45:52,428
10 goldblums yeah it just makes me think of jurassic park thanks kiwi nice to hear from you

712
00:45:52,428 --> 00:46:05,088
you. Daj is here with 11,101 Satoshis. Have some fries, you guys. Oh, this is a,

713
00:46:05,368 --> 00:46:08,668
oh, this is to land. This is interesting. This one has showed up. This is a loved one that

714
00:46:08,668 --> 00:46:12,168
showed up here. Well, you get credit for it again. Thanks, Daja. You're getting credit across

715
00:46:12,168 --> 00:46:18,008
the network this week. Mal Dusk, who included looks like a pronunciation, which I probably

716
00:46:18,008 --> 00:46:19,888
We still screwed it up, but man, I like where your head's at.

717
00:46:19,948 --> 00:46:20,868
Came in with a row of ducks.

718
00:46:22,308 --> 00:46:23,728
I bought miners from Abundant Miners.

719
00:46:23,848 --> 00:46:26,648
That helped me write off some of the other cap gains last year.

720
00:46:27,348 --> 00:46:30,588
I've made a nice profit, but Bitcoin is just paid out to my address.

721
00:46:30,688 --> 00:46:31,468
No KYC there.

722
00:46:31,568 --> 00:46:32,588
That is sweet.

723
00:46:33,368 --> 00:46:35,828
The monthly hosting cost is basically my fixed ECA.

724
00:46:36,028 --> 00:46:39,888
Next up, self-hosted Bitcoin D, Fulcrum, and L&D over Tor on Nix.

725
00:46:40,148 --> 00:46:40,428
Yeah!

726
00:46:41,608 --> 00:46:42,888
Mal, you are doing her, Mal.

727
00:46:43,028 --> 00:46:43,348
Mal.

728
00:46:43,588 --> 00:46:43,868
Mal.

729
00:46:44,068 --> 00:46:44,348
Mal.

730
00:46:44,428 --> 00:46:44,868
That's what it's.

731
00:46:44,868 --> 00:46:45,628
Mal, you are doing it.

732
00:46:45,628 --> 00:46:45,888
Mal does.

733
00:46:46,368 --> 00:46:46,968
Now, listen.

734
00:46:46,968 --> 00:46:48,868
I wish I had the funds

735
00:46:48,868 --> 00:46:49,688
because that would be

736
00:46:49,688 --> 00:46:50,348
what he's doing

737
00:46:50,348 --> 00:46:51,368
is he's taking advantage

738
00:46:51,368 --> 00:46:53,108
of a new like

739
00:46:53,108 --> 00:46:54,188
you can write off

740
00:46:54,188 --> 00:46:55,428
hardware depreciation

741
00:46:55,428 --> 00:46:56,048
at 100%

742
00:46:56,048 --> 00:46:57,568
with a big beautiful bill

743
00:46:57,568 --> 00:46:58,168
I don't know how long

744
00:46:58,168 --> 00:46:58,668
that lasts

745
00:46:58,668 --> 00:46:59,248
it might be over

746
00:46:59,248 --> 00:47:00,088
so you could buy

747
00:47:00,088 --> 00:47:01,228
your Bitcoin mining hardware

748
00:47:01,228 --> 00:47:02,868
write off the entire thing

749
00:47:02,868 --> 00:47:03,748
in the first year

750
00:47:03,748 --> 00:47:04,608
and then it's just

751
00:47:04,608 --> 00:47:05,668
your cost to run it

752
00:47:05,668 --> 00:47:06,648
so if you've got

753
00:47:06,648 --> 00:47:07,628
the capital to do that

754
00:47:07,628 --> 00:47:08,728
it's such a slick way

755
00:47:08,728 --> 00:47:09,748
to stack sats

756
00:47:09,748 --> 00:47:11,068
oh man

757
00:47:11,068 --> 00:47:12,948
thanks for making me jealous

758
00:47:12,948 --> 00:47:13,768
appreciate you

759
00:47:13,768 --> 00:47:14,828
maul

760
00:47:14,828 --> 00:47:15,848
hope to hear from you

761
00:47:15,848 --> 00:47:19,528
Nakamoto 6102 is here with 5,000 sats.

762
00:47:20,268 --> 00:47:22,428
I am programmed in multiple techniques.

763
00:47:22,608 --> 00:47:23,288
Appreciate the value.

764
00:47:23,428 --> 00:47:24,328
Appreciate you, Nakamoto.

765
00:47:24,768 --> 00:47:29,468
Amanda is here with a Spaceballs boost, 12,345 sats.

766
00:47:29,568 --> 00:47:33,688
So the combination is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

767
00:47:33,888 --> 00:47:34,348
Boost.

768
00:47:34,428 --> 00:47:36,628
I can't believe I accidentally boosted into LUP with that last one.

769
00:47:36,628 --> 00:47:36,808
Oops.

770
00:47:37,348 --> 00:47:42,128
Perhaps an initially blank radio button instead of a drop-down to choose the show on the Webboost page would improve the UI?

771
00:47:42,428 --> 00:47:42,828
Yes.

772
00:47:42,968 --> 00:47:43,548
That's amazing.

773
00:47:43,668 --> 00:47:45,188
I've got the same combination on my luggage.

774
00:47:45,188 --> 00:47:49,608
That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Jody's here with 5,317 sats.

775
00:47:49,668 --> 00:47:51,788
Yes, sir. Sirty, sir, sir, sir.

776
00:47:51,928 --> 00:47:54,848
Emptying out the fan wallet. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Chris.

777
00:47:55,008 --> 00:47:59,108
Well, thank you, Jody. And you can always use the boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com.

778
00:47:59,868 --> 00:48:01,708
And I'd be curious to know where you go. Nice to hear from you.

779
00:48:02,168 --> 00:48:05,488
And that is our sat boosters. Now we switch over to our fiat boosters.

780
00:48:05,708 --> 00:48:10,288
And ironically, we start with Sats Squanch, who comes in with $200.

781
00:48:10,288 --> 00:48:12,188
Hey, rich lobster!

782
00:48:15,188 --> 00:48:20,048
Yeah, that ain't bad at all.

783
00:48:20,568 --> 00:48:23,088
Hell and well met from the secret Thousand Oaks meetup.

784
00:48:23,148 --> 00:48:27,568
Pizza chief, Carmelo, trucker, and myself wanted to send along some encouragement and value

785
00:48:27,568 --> 00:48:30,268
for cranking out the good old gold every week for us.

786
00:48:30,268 --> 00:48:32,608
We had a great lesson in hardware wallets last meetup.

787
00:48:32,708 --> 00:48:35,168
Seat signer with tab signer cards rocked the hardest.

788
00:48:35,408 --> 00:48:37,528
Oh, I wish I could have seen that.

789
00:48:37,908 --> 00:48:42,188
That is such a great way to get exposure to a wallet you might not normally use like that.

790
00:48:42,748 --> 00:48:43,388
Oh, man.

791
00:48:43,388 --> 00:48:44,868
Thanks for the update, SatSquatch.

792
00:48:44,908 --> 00:48:45,608
And thank you, everybody.

793
00:48:45,708 --> 00:48:46,988
And shout out to the Thousand Oaks Meetup.

794
00:48:47,648 --> 00:48:48,968
Secret Thousand Oaks Meetup.

795
00:48:48,988 --> 00:48:49,848
Don't tell anybody about it.

796
00:48:50,148 --> 00:48:51,108
And I hope to make it one day.

797
00:48:51,788 --> 00:48:53,308
WineEagle's here with $2.

798
00:48:53,868 --> 00:48:55,268
Coming in hot with the boost.

799
00:48:55,508 --> 00:48:57,148
And he links me to a GitHub project.

800
00:48:57,308 --> 00:48:58,328
Thank you very much, WineEagle.

801
00:48:58,828 --> 00:48:59,388
Appreciate you.

802
00:48:59,468 --> 00:49:03,108
Thank you, everybody who boosted, including those of you who boosted below the $2,000

803
00:49:03,108 --> 00:49:03,508
Sat Cutoff.

804
00:49:03,588 --> 00:49:04,348
Appreciate you, too.

805
00:49:04,688 --> 00:49:06,648
And you SatStreamers, 20 of you.

806
00:49:07,308 --> 00:49:08,508
Seems like that is up a little bit.

807
00:49:08,888 --> 00:49:12,028
Stacked 42,127 Sats.

808
00:49:12,028 --> 00:49:14,088
because I'm the win

809
00:49:14,088 --> 00:49:15,448
not too bad you guys

810
00:49:15,448 --> 00:49:16,948
thank you very much

811
00:49:16,948 --> 00:49:17,988
I appreciate you

812
00:49:17,988 --> 00:49:19,388
and when you bring it all together

813
00:49:19,388 --> 00:49:20,748
including our fiat boosts

814
00:49:20,748 --> 00:49:21,488
and you convert them

815
00:49:21,488 --> 00:49:23,208
to our current SAT to USD value

816
00:49:23,208 --> 00:49:24,628
our total this week

817
00:49:24,628 --> 00:49:28,148
is 612,308 satoshis

818
00:49:28,148 --> 00:49:31,488
three really solid weeks in a row

819
00:49:31,488 --> 00:49:32,968
I really appreciate it

820
00:49:32,968 --> 00:49:34,368
taking that to heart

821
00:49:34,368 --> 00:49:35,128
thank you everyone

822
00:49:35,128 --> 00:49:37,228
who goes to boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com

823
00:49:37,228 --> 00:49:38,868
or uses the podcasting 2.0 app

824
00:49:38,868 --> 00:49:39,608
to boost the show

825
00:49:39,608 --> 00:49:41,668
or is a member at jupiter.party

826
00:49:41,668 --> 00:49:42,668
or in the Fountain app.

827
00:49:43,128 --> 00:49:44,608
Your support keeps the show going.

828
00:49:44,668 --> 00:49:45,568
There's no advertiser.

829
00:49:46,168 --> 00:49:48,468
My time's paid by your booths

830
00:49:48,468 --> 00:49:49,508
and your memberships.

831
00:49:51,608 --> 00:49:52,428
All right.

832
00:49:53,068 --> 00:49:54,768
I did not expect that this week.

833
00:49:54,828 --> 00:49:55,968
I really do appreciate it.

834
00:49:56,528 --> 00:49:57,508
The times like this,

835
00:49:57,548 --> 00:49:58,188
you would think it's weird

836
00:49:58,188 --> 00:50:00,328
because there's a lot going on in the macro,

837
00:50:00,448 --> 00:50:01,988
but finding where it fits for Bitcoin

838
00:50:01,988 --> 00:50:03,948
is a considerable amount of work and effort,

839
00:50:04,068 --> 00:50:05,868
especially weeks when it's not obvious.

840
00:50:05,988 --> 00:50:07,428
So I really do appreciate the support

841
00:50:07,428 --> 00:50:08,308
and you guys are recognizing

842
00:50:08,308 --> 00:50:09,728
the value that I put in the show

843
00:50:09,728 --> 00:50:10,848
by sending some value back.

844
00:50:10,848 --> 00:50:16,128
it's pretty great to see the value model working and making it so that a Bitcoin podcast that

845
00:50:16,128 --> 00:50:21,428
covers things like this that you use to plan for your friends, yourself, your family, your future,

846
00:50:21,548 --> 00:50:25,028
your business, whatever it is, isn't getting drug around by those certain interests. You know,

847
00:50:25,088 --> 00:50:29,288
its interest is you. And that we're making that work is pretty awesome. Now, I did promise you

848
00:50:29,288 --> 00:50:32,668
an update on bunker mode. So let's get to that.

849
00:50:40,848 --> 00:50:52,028
Now, if you're not online all the time, you might have missed that people around the Bitcoin ecosystem are locking down and going into bunker mode.

850
00:50:52,348 --> 00:51:05,568
October 7th, Ethereum researcher Justin Drake sparked a viral debate on X, warning that AI was getting so good at math, it would likely crack Bitcoin's elliptic curve cryptography in just months, not in years.

851
00:51:05,568 --> 00:51:13,608
Justin Drake, a security researcher at the Ethereum Foundation, is calling on the blockchain industry to prepare for what he calls bunker mode.

852
00:51:14,148 --> 00:51:15,888
In a post on X, Drake wrote,

853
00:51:16,108 --> 00:51:20,648
Today I call upon the blockchain industry to calmly begin planning for bunker mode.

854
00:51:21,068 --> 00:51:28,328
His personal recommendation is a controlled migration of assets to fresh addresses that keep their public keys hidden behind a hash.

855
00:51:28,848 --> 00:51:32,768
Drake points to recent advances in artificial intelligence and mathematics.

856
00:51:32,768 --> 00:51:39,028
He says it's now reasonable to prepare for the possibility that ECDSA signatures could be broken

857
00:51:39,028 --> 00:51:45,448
before the arrival of cryptographically capable quantum computers, quote, in the worst case in

858
00:51:45,448 --> 00:52:04,834
months not years He noted that elliptic curves feel especially vulnerable to superintelligence Drake repeatedly urged holders not to rush or panic saying a rushed migration would do more harm than good He also wrote I be pushing for maximum defense acceleration

859
00:52:05,534 --> 00:52:06,534
Did she say block train?

860
00:52:06,954 --> 00:52:07,794
You might go back.

861
00:52:08,334 --> 00:52:09,914
I like that if she said block train.

862
00:52:10,434 --> 00:52:10,634
All right.

863
00:52:10,654 --> 00:52:11,894
So that's Bitcoin Magazine TV.

864
00:52:11,994 --> 00:52:12,894
They're pretty new on the scene.

865
00:52:12,954 --> 00:52:15,034
They've been doing a good job covering the stuff as it comes up.

866
00:52:15,054 --> 00:52:15,914
And they did the right thing.

867
00:52:16,034 --> 00:52:19,034
They brought on a Bitcoin core developer, which is exactly the kind of thing they can

868
00:52:19,034 --> 00:52:24,714
do with their resources. And the core developer explains the real risk of the situation.

869
00:52:25,214 --> 00:52:30,454
Now to discuss the latest in Bitcoin security and potential changes to Bitcoin's protocol

870
00:52:30,454 --> 00:52:36,114
to defend against quantum computing risk, it's Bitcoin core developer from Chain Cone Labs,

871
00:52:36,214 --> 00:52:38,354
Antoine Ponceau. Thanks so much for joining us, Antoine.

872
00:52:39,154 --> 00:52:39,934
Thanks for having me.

873
00:52:40,394 --> 00:52:47,594
So that post from Justin Drake just dropped yesterday. It's making the rounds now. What

874
00:52:47,594 --> 00:52:49,414
What is your whole read on the situation?

875
00:52:49,414 --> 00:52:53,714
Has AI fundamentally changed Bitcoin's address security?

876
00:52:53,714 --> 00:52:57,134
I think that there is no evidence for the claim.

877
00:52:57,134 --> 00:53:03,154
And I think it's ironic how he says that a rushed migration would do more harm than good.

878
00:53:03,154 --> 00:53:10,334
I think that as Bitcoin security researchers, we need to not make claims without evidence

879
00:53:10,334 --> 00:53:13,334
because it does more harm than good.

880
00:53:13,334 --> 00:53:21,134
then it can, people will get tired of the fear mongering. And when there is a real basis for the

881
00:53:21,134 --> 00:53:27,014
fear, they may just not trust the security researchers anymore. Yeah, I think he raises a

882
00:53:27,014 --> 00:53:33,714
good point. They're crying wolf constantly around quantum and now AI. And so when it does start to

883
00:53:33,714 --> 00:53:38,754
be a real threat, there'll be a real effort to try to sort that from all of the previous noise.

884
00:53:39,474 --> 00:53:40,394
I guess that falls on me.

885
00:53:40,914 --> 00:53:42,374
But I thought that was decent coverage.

886
00:53:42,674 --> 00:53:45,454
Let's talk about a Bitcoin mining conspiracy afoot.

887
00:53:46,114 --> 00:53:48,754
There is a Bitcoin mining conspiracy going on.

888
00:53:48,814 --> 00:53:50,154
It's really interesting.

889
00:53:50,374 --> 00:53:51,114
Well, we'll get into it.

890
00:53:51,174 --> 00:53:51,954
In El Rito.

891
00:53:52,394 --> 00:53:54,274
And the local news team is on it.

892
00:53:54,574 --> 00:53:58,274
So recently there was an Oklahoma Bitcoin mine with a huge water leak.

893
00:53:58,494 --> 00:54:03,234
And the reporters kept digging after that story and found a second Bitcoin mining site.

894
00:54:03,454 --> 00:54:03,774
All right.

895
00:54:03,894 --> 00:54:04,794
Not too unusual.

896
00:54:05,374 --> 00:54:07,734
But following the companies behind that site.

897
00:54:07,734 --> 00:54:09,874
Well, that gets considerably harder.

898
00:54:10,814 --> 00:54:17,794
This employee was about a month into his job at this El Reno Bitcoin mine when his boss took him out to lunch.

899
00:54:18,054 --> 00:54:19,214
We met with somebody else.

900
00:54:19,594 --> 00:54:23,174
They both spoke Chinese the whole time, and I just kind of sat there and ate my food.

901
00:54:23,394 --> 00:54:31,474
He says they told him through Google Translate that their company, WuWa Technology, also operates a second mining site.

902
00:54:31,474 --> 00:54:37,314
This one in Oklahoma City, next to a power substation near Southwest 29th and Bryant.

903
00:54:37,734 --> 00:54:41,834
Square in the middle of State Representative Andy Fugate's House District.

904
00:54:42,074 --> 00:54:43,774
I gotta tell you, I'm surprised.

905
00:54:43,954 --> 00:54:47,234
He, like us, had no idea it existed.

906
00:54:47,494 --> 00:54:49,094
I'm shocked is probably the word.

907
00:54:49,314 --> 00:54:51,434
Now, getting eyes on it takes a hike.

908
00:54:52,094 --> 00:54:53,574
Let's just see what we can see.

909
00:54:54,094 --> 00:54:56,274
Through the woods of Trosper Park.

910
00:54:56,354 --> 00:54:57,454
Should be right over there.

911
00:54:57,814 --> 00:54:59,134
There's quite a few cars there.

912
00:54:59,794 --> 00:55:03,094
But a massive fence still obscures most of it.

913
00:55:03,194 --> 00:55:05,494
It is very well hidden from the public.

914
00:55:05,494 --> 00:55:10,894
So we're back out here again, this time with the drone to hopefully give us a better vantage point.

915
00:55:11,154 --> 00:55:16,794
Maybe it's well hidden because people like these people are harassing them and they don't want to be harassed.

916
00:55:16,814 --> 00:55:21,814
We're back out here again, this time with the drone to hopefully give us a better vantage point.

917
00:55:22,534 --> 00:55:25,994
And from the sky, we got a pretty clear picture.

918
00:55:26,374 --> 00:55:31,254
Several rows of mining containers, about half of them identical to those in El Reno.

919
00:55:31,474 --> 00:55:33,534
It's pretty much the same setup. They had a lot more containers.

920
00:55:33,534 --> 00:55:39,354
We also saw this truck, identical to the one parked outside a seemingly empty El Reno house

921
00:55:39,354 --> 00:55:43,334
registered as WUA Technologies' main place of business.

922
00:55:43,554 --> 00:55:45,994
It even has the same exact sticker on the window.

923
00:55:46,254 --> 00:55:49,614
But if we still had any doubts about this employee's claims,

924
00:55:49,974 --> 00:55:53,594
this man and this red truck sealed the deal.

925
00:55:53,814 --> 00:55:57,734
Because we recognized him instantly as the man who greeted us

926
00:55:57,734 --> 00:56:01,294
when we visited the El Reno mine back in August.

927
00:56:01,294 --> 00:56:03,194
Oh, zero f***ing subject.

928
00:56:03,194 --> 00:56:07,814
This employee says that man also worked for WooWah Technology.

929
00:56:08,114 --> 00:56:11,014
He started a lot of arguments with me and was just being really unprofessional.

930
00:56:11,434 --> 00:56:15,854
But despite its employees doing work at the Oklahoma City mine,

931
00:56:16,254 --> 00:56:18,534
WooWah Technology does not own it.

932
00:56:18,754 --> 00:56:24,094
Instead, we found its two other separate but related companies based out of Houston.

933
00:56:24,394 --> 00:56:25,894
Oh, dun-dun-dun.

934
00:56:26,534 --> 00:56:27,794
It's funny, they don't really have much.

935
00:56:28,034 --> 00:56:29,534
Oh, there's some really killer music.

936
00:56:29,854 --> 00:56:32,234
And there's a moment in that clip where the music fades out

937
00:56:32,234 --> 00:56:33,814
and it's just his really horrible audio.

938
00:56:34,054 --> 00:56:35,794
And if you just listen to that moment,

939
00:56:35,874 --> 00:56:36,774
it's so much less dramatic.

940
00:56:37,014 --> 00:56:38,974
But they don't really have to have much.

941
00:56:39,034 --> 00:56:40,534
And I think that's kind of my point with this clip

942
00:56:40,534 --> 00:56:42,414
because it's a mix of media scrutiny

943
00:56:42,414 --> 00:56:43,774
around data centers in general

944
00:56:43,774 --> 00:56:45,914
and then shady corporate structures

945
00:56:45,914 --> 00:56:47,334
to hide from said media.

946
00:56:47,794 --> 00:56:49,514
And that's really all they need to go on.

947
00:56:49,654 --> 00:56:50,874
But I actually think this story

948
00:56:50,874 --> 00:56:52,254
is telling us something here.

949
00:56:52,294 --> 00:56:53,014
And I have a theory.

950
00:56:53,494 --> 00:56:55,554
My theory is that we probably have

951
00:56:55,554 --> 00:56:57,054
more Chinese operators,

952
00:56:57,314 --> 00:56:59,094
mining operators in the United States

953
00:56:59,094 --> 00:57:00,874
than we realize.

954
00:57:00,874 --> 00:57:11,474
I would imagine that some of them fled when China banned mining within their borders to all kinds of places, including we have some evidence they fled to the United States.

955
00:57:11,534 --> 00:57:17,834
And that's already been established. But how do they do something that their own government isn't really allowing?

956
00:57:18,394 --> 00:57:22,994
Sure, they don't have any jurisdiction here, but they're not for it. And they probably don't want to have a lot of scrutiny by the U.S. government.

957
00:57:22,994 --> 00:57:24,494
and they don't want media attention.

958
00:57:25,254 --> 00:57:28,394
So I think what we're seeing is that there's probably some mining operations

959
00:57:28,394 --> 00:57:30,874
that have come here as Chinese mining refugees

960
00:57:30,874 --> 00:57:34,734
that have these really weird, complicated, shady corporate structures.

961
00:57:35,034 --> 00:57:39,314
Despite its employees doing work at the Oklahoma City mine,

962
00:57:39,734 --> 00:57:41,994
Wuwa Technology does not own it.

963
00:57:42,214 --> 00:57:47,554
Instead, we found its two other separate but related companies based out of Houston.

964
00:57:47,994 --> 00:57:52,714
One of those companies called Evolve appears all over the site's engineering plans

965
00:57:52,714 --> 00:57:58,934
on file with the city. Now, those plans call for up to 60 mining containers. Yet county assessors

966
00:57:58,934 --> 00:58:06,254
records classified the site as raw land with no buildings. The property tax bill, $504 a year.

967
00:58:06,554 --> 00:58:12,054
We gave Evolve a call. This is Evolve Incorporated. The man on the phone explained. Jeez, it sounds

968
00:58:12,054 --> 00:58:15,994
like they're great at finding great land. And because they're not permanent structures, they

969
00:58:15,994 --> 00:58:21,134
may be within some sort of, you know, local jurisdiction rule because they are containers.

970
00:58:21,134 --> 00:58:24,934
They're containers from the back of the trucks that they've converted into Bitcoin miners.

971
00:58:25,354 --> 00:58:27,834
So they're not technically structures that they've built on the property.

972
00:58:27,934 --> 00:58:29,354
We gave Evolve a call.

973
00:58:29,494 --> 00:58:31,214
This is Evolve Incorporated.

974
00:58:31,714 --> 00:58:34,654
The man on the phone explained Evolve is an engineering firm.

975
00:58:34,894 --> 00:58:40,514
They draw plans and build out site infrastructure for customers in the Bitcoin mining industry and beyond.

976
00:58:40,814 --> 00:58:46,034
He says they've worked on two mines in Oklahoma, one in Medill and this one in Oklahoma City.

977
00:58:46,034 --> 00:58:54,714
We have like these server farms out there, but we do have customers who operate and they're their own entities, their own company.

978
00:58:55,714 --> 00:59:05,574
I think they're Chinese owned, but I'm not sure if I can release too much information.

979
00:59:05,574 --> 00:59:05,754
Sure, sure.

980
00:59:07,094 --> 00:59:12,614
But they are a different company, different entities that operate out there.

981
00:59:12,614 --> 00:59:17,974
That lines right up with what the Wuwa employee says his Chinese-speaking bosses told him.

982
00:59:18,094 --> 00:59:21,014
They just kind of told me that they owned half of the containers that were there.

983
00:59:21,214 --> 00:59:26,634
So besides Wuwa, who then is the second company apparently mining out here?

984
00:59:26,814 --> 00:59:28,654
Who is running operations?

985
00:59:30,374 --> 00:59:31,474
It's concerning.

986
00:59:31,934 --> 00:59:36,314
Digging deeper through city building permits, another name keeps popping up.

987
00:59:36,714 --> 00:59:38,214
BitMit Company Limited.

988
00:59:38,534 --> 00:59:39,994
It's registered in Nevada.

989
00:59:39,994 --> 00:59:45,354
According to that state's records, a different Cayman Islands-based company founded BitMit.

990
00:59:45,474 --> 00:59:51,994
Public records list many of BitMit's former officers with addresses in Beijing and other Chinese cities.

991
00:59:52,274 --> 00:59:55,054
The company's treasurer is someone named Hong Zhu.

992
00:59:55,354 --> 01:00:01,394
Zhu's name is listed on a 2024 building permit for the Oklahoma City site as a contractor representative.

993
01:00:01,574 --> 01:00:07,454
Last year, BitMit advertised on an OU job board looking for workers at this exact address.

994
01:00:07,454 --> 01:00:15,474
The contact listed was Hongzhu, available to reach at an email address bearing the name of that Cayman Islands-based company.

995
01:00:15,654 --> 01:00:18,834
So we emailed him, asking if the job was still available.

996
01:00:19,154 --> 01:00:22,294
And he actually got back pretty quickly, telling us it wasn't.

997
01:00:22,494 --> 01:00:27,334
But his response came from a different email address, registered to yet another company,

998
01:00:27,694 --> 01:00:40,100
one we couldn find many traces of beyond a very sparse website So we tried calling Zhu Your call has been forwarded to voice now And emailing again But nothing back Nothing to help untangle

999
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:41,920
our rapidly growing web

1000
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,260
of mysterious people and businesses

1001
01:00:44,260 --> 01:00:46,520
tied to these two Bitcoin mines.

1002
01:00:46,780 --> 01:00:47,880
Man, how do they know how to work

1003
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:48,1000
the system so well?

1004
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,300
I mean, these guys can't track them down.

1005
01:00:51,380 --> 01:00:52,140
They can't figure it out.

1006
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:53,200
And I'm just thinking to myself,

1007
01:00:53,580 --> 01:00:54,740
as somebody who's a bit public,

1008
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:55,740
they'd be really cool

1009
01:00:55,740 --> 01:00:57,840
to have that layer of privacy.

1010
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:59,820
Like, it's just, I don't know.

1011
01:00:59,940 --> 01:01:04,100
Like, I wish there was an LLM or a guide or something that would tell me how to do it.

1012
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:06,120
But everything gets banned online, doesn't tell you how to do it.

1013
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:07,740
You know, but they somehow know.

1014
01:01:07,820 --> 01:01:10,100
They seem to know like experts, whatever it is.

1015
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:11,600
So, OK, they're going to bring it home.

1016
01:01:11,660 --> 01:01:12,380
This is the last clip.

1017
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:12,980
We'll wrap it up.

1018
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:13,700
They don't have much.

1019
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:19,320
But what they do have, at least to me, suggests there may be going on more here that's commonly known.

1020
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:20,900
Some of it just standard operating procedure.

1021
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,120
Some of it seemingly connected to China.

1022
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:34,740
Now remember, we told you a man named Jiang Tony Shi founded both Wuwa Technology, who this man worked for, and Athlon Blockchain Technology, which owns the El Reno mine.

1023
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:40,740
Shi's also registered at least seven other companies under his name in his home state of California.

1024
01:01:40,740 --> 01:01:53,800
And U.S. customs records show at least three of his companies imported the same brand of mining equipment we saw at the El Reno and Oklahoma City mines from China between 2022 and 2026.

1025
01:01:54,100 --> 01:02:03,1000
Many of those shipments all coming from this same Hong Kong-based supplier, a supplier whose only customers of record are all Tony Hsieh's companies.

1026
01:02:03,1000 --> 01:02:12,720
Meanwhile, Nikolic also says it's common for shell companies with Chinese government ties to register as businesses in the country of Singapore.

1027
01:02:12,980 --> 01:02:24,220
And we found records showing someone registered a company called Athlon Blockchain in Singapore around the same time she registered Athlon Blockchain companies in Oklahoma and California.

1028
01:02:24,220 --> 01:02:34,620
Records also show someone registered a company in Singapore bearing the same obscure name of a company, Hangzhou, registered in Nevada around the same time.

1029
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:40,960
All of this in mind, now is where we need to take a pause to make one thing very clear.

1030
01:02:41,340 --> 01:02:52,480
We have not found any evidence to suggest Xi, Wuwa, Athlon, Zhu, Bitmit, or either of these Oklahoma mines are at all connected to or part of the Chinese government.

1031
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:58,1000
So now here we are, left still unsure where this tangled web really even leads.

1032
01:02:59,380 --> 01:03:04,960
If you can't see a clear line between who owns, who operates, the facility and the machines,

1033
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,380
there is something that's not right there.

1034
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:10,700
Still leaving unanswered the essential question.

1035
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,660
Who's benefiting from this and why?

1036
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:15,740
Well, the Bitcoin network is, I know that.

1037
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,380
Out of the whole story, it's not really, they make it so dramatic.

1038
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:20,560
The music really does something.

1039
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,480
And whoever sources their music should get a raise.

1040
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:28,1000
All right, I want to talk about why I'm not going to recommend Fold anymore after being a customer that was kind of all in.

1041
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:35,480
Fold has dropped their Fold Plus program, which they did announce was coming, and they've switched to what they're calling Fold Reserve.

1042
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:43,900
Quick recap, if you don't know, here in the States, Fold is a Bitcoin company that would let you stack sats by paying your bills, mortgage bills,

1043
01:03:43,900 --> 01:03:48,200
because they give you both an ACH account, you know, for routing and bank number and also a debit card.

1044
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:49,880
And they added a credit card as well.

1045
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:54,560
all of which gives you sats back depending on how much you spend and whatnot and so we kind of

1046
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,760
reorganized our bill payment workflow all around fold and so we started doing you know our mortgage

1047
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:04,600
payments all our everything everything went through fold well fold plus is out and the old program

1048
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:10,800
which cost ten dollars a month and you know i liked it because i got it up the sats back is now

1049
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,660
sort of a pay-to-play system they've introduced fold reserve which requires at least five thousand

1050
01:04:15,660 --> 01:04:23,840
dollars, $5,000 of your dollars in a fold reserve lockup that they have. And they call it a reserve,

1051
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:30,580
but it isn't FDIC insured and you can't pull the cash out. You can get gift cards and you can buy

1052
01:04:30,580 --> 01:04:34,740
Bitcoin with it. And they have a button that lets you just buy a bunch of Bitcoin and once immediately

1053
01:04:34,740 --> 01:04:39,580
sell it and then take the cash, which could potentially have a cap gains, maybe depending

1054
01:04:39,580 --> 01:04:45,380
on their execution delay. But you can't just take the cash out. And in order to get any kind

1055
01:04:45,380 --> 01:04:52,020
of rewards, you really got to have serious money in there. You get just 0.25% sats back and no bill

1056
01:04:52,020 --> 01:04:57,320
pay rewards if you don't put some money in there. And your credit card rewards go down as well.

1057
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:03,620
To really get serious sats back, you have to have nearly $100,000 in the Fold Reserve. Again,

1058
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:10,500
non-FDIC insured, and you can't pull it out as cash. That's crazy. That's crazy. And it's not

1059
01:05:10,500 --> 01:05:16,500
FDIC, it's just crazy. Fold has replaced what was a great subscription program with essentially

1060
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:23,520
a system that allows them to float on their customers' funds. Say they get maybe a million

1061
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:28,200
or say they get $5 million, they get a couple of whales and they get $5 million in total in this

1062
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:32,580
reserve out of all of their customers, they get $5 million. Well, then they're probably pretty safe

1063
01:05:32,580 --> 01:05:36,220
to play around with one or two million of that dollars, assuming it won't all be withdrawn.

1064
01:05:36,220 --> 01:05:39,760
And that's their operating costs, which is probably pretty attractive if you can't raise

1065
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:44,860
money anymore. But it's a significant downgrade for everyday users, and it encourages holding

1066
01:05:44,860 --> 01:05:49,840
cash and not Bitcoin. Your Bitcoin amounts don't count towards the reserve. The entire system more

1067
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:54,720
and more actually encourages you to spend Bitcoin than it does to earn Bitcoin and to use cash.

1068
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:59,320
Doesn't seem sustainable either. So out of an abundance of caution, I just don't think I can

1069
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,880
recommend Fold anymore, and we're going to unwind once we figure out somewhere. So if you know

1070
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:09,160
somewhere, again, let me know. I also want to cover the Ledger story really quickly. Ledger

1071
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:15,900
confirms that a spy chip was implanted in some of their wallets. Yes, it's as crazy as it sounds.

1072
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,440
Some of their devices distributed through a Southeast Asian reseller called CryptoBills

1073
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:24,460
were compromised with a hardware implant that drained the user's wallets. The company has

1074
01:06:24,460 --> 01:06:27,700
been investigating reports of losing funds from all its purchase through CryptoBills,

1075
01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:32,640
a major Malaysia-based hardware wallet retailer operating across Southeast Asia.

1076
01:06:33,180 --> 01:06:38,420
Some reachers have shown the implant in LedgerX in September 16, saying tamper devices were

1077
01:06:38,420 --> 01:06:43,940
available for nearly half the price of original hardware. On October 19th, Ledger said it had

1078
01:06:43,940 --> 01:06:49,500
launched an investigation and confirmed that it was crypto bills and asked them to stop selling

1079
01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:54,1000
Ledger devices. Yesterday, Ledger provided another update confirming that all user reports of

1080
01:06:54,1000 --> 01:06:58,360
unexpected funds that were drained were linked to devices that were sold through crypto bills

1081
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:04,440
and described the volume as limited. Anyways, there's been some interesting revelations,

1082
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:09,120
including one of the individuals online, Mark Capelli's, which is the former Mt. Gox CTO,

1083
01:07:09,460 --> 01:07:14,680
revealing the device in pictures. I have been told that he is working on his own Bitcoin wallet.

1084
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,780
So he's probably trying to get some notoriety by drawing attention to the ledger hack. And it's a

1085
01:07:19,780 --> 01:07:26,020
wild one. And of course, the lesson here, which is pretty obvious, is don't buy a wallet from a

1086
01:07:26,020 --> 01:07:30,120
third-party retailer that's selling it half off. Don't buy your pagers from retailers selling them

1087
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:35,640
half off and don't buy your crypto wallets buy them direct and pay retail price don't buy from

1088
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,720
amazon even if you can avoid it buy it from the provider i don't know if that's hard advice but

1089
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:44,160
something to definitely consider i would think and this bit them and it's really unfortunate

1090
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:48,160
we're just seeing other this is not really an ai one though this is more of a physical attack

1091
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:52,520
but it's pretty wild and i'll put the details in the show notes if you would like to read more and

1092
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,900
i would encourage you to do so because it's a pretty it's a pretty nutty story

1093
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:19,940
Let's check in on the state of the network.

1094
01:08:19,940 --> 01:08:23,440
I'm wrapping up at block height 971,473.

1095
01:08:23,540 --> 01:08:28,380
The current Bitcoin price, U.S. dollar, is 81,530.

1096
01:08:28,380 --> 01:08:31,900
That makes our stats per dollar 1,227.

1097
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:38,140
We are down 35.4% from our all-time high 373 days ago, you monsters.

1098
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:44,580
The estimated difficulty adjustment is a upwards adjustment of 6.1%.

1099
01:08:44,580 --> 01:08:45,940
Hmm, interesting.

1100
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:51,320
There are 25,426 nodes reachable in the network and the numbers you care about.

1101
01:08:51,440 --> 01:08:57,400
We are down 2.3% in the last 24 hours and down 2.2% since our last episode.

1102
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:09,880
but fret not we're still up 3.8% for the month 239 days until we retarget and then oh well I was

1103
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:14,020
just watching the sats per vbyte right now they just went up just went back up to

1104
01:09:14,018 --> 01:09:15,598
Well, one sat per V-byte right now in the network.

1105
01:09:15,718 --> 01:09:17,118
It was down, actually, for most of the day.

1106
01:09:17,538 --> 01:09:18,398
And it's ticking back up.

1107
01:09:18,458 --> 01:09:19,598
People moving their funds, I suppose.

1108
01:09:19,718 --> 01:09:21,578
Perhaps they're leaving bunker mode.

1109
01:09:22,018 --> 01:09:22,878
That must be what it is.

1110
01:09:22,958 --> 01:09:23,838
They're leaving bunker mode.

1111
01:09:23,838 --> 01:09:29,998
And they have accurately determined that the state of the network, it is strong.

1112
01:09:29,998 --> 01:09:48,458
meetup.com slash jupyter broadcasting clanker therapy three this friday october 16th which

1113
01:09:48,458 --> 01:09:52,498
will be released for playback on the youtube channel and extras.show as a podcast we're

1114
01:09:52,498 --> 01:09:55,998
going to get into questions for what you've been building around your clanker setups some of the

1115
01:09:55,998 --> 01:09:58,538
new projects we've been working on, some of our practices.

1116
01:09:59,098 --> 01:10:01,298
It's been a fun, this is our third one, it's been really great.

1117
01:10:01,778 --> 01:10:05,778
Kind of getting all of our clanker AI stuff out in a dedicated stream.

1118
01:10:06,318 --> 01:10:09,218
So details at meetup.com slash jupiterbroadcasting.com.

1119
01:10:09,538 --> 01:10:12,378
Links for what I talked about today and stuff that didn't even make into the show,

1120
01:10:12,658 --> 01:10:14,658
that's over at thisweekinbitcoin.show.

1121
01:10:14,798 --> 01:10:16,738
This was episode 127.

1122
01:10:17,458 --> 01:10:20,778
My goal is to show that doesn't get distracted by the emotions around what's happening.

1123
01:10:21,238 --> 01:10:25,018
The focus is on the signal so you can plan for yourself, your future, your friends, your

1124
01:10:25,018 --> 01:10:26,858
family, your business, whatever it might be.

1125
01:10:26,858 --> 01:10:27,618
I don't know, buddy.

1126
01:10:27,618 --> 01:10:30,438
I don't know what it is, but I want you to be able to plan for it.

1127
01:10:30,438 --> 01:10:33,658
And so I try to focus on the signal so that way you can do just that.

1128
01:10:33,838 --> 01:10:43,947
And you can send a little bit of value back by sending me a boost over at boost Also going to be in Texas Austin Texas in early November for Texas Linux Fest

1129
01:10:44,247 --> 01:10:48,627
There's going to be a meetup posted for that coming up soon, too, at meetup.com slash jupiterbroadcasting.

1130
01:10:48,947 --> 01:10:50,027
So if you're in the area, come say hi.

1131
01:10:50,447 --> 01:10:53,327
Thanks for listening, and I'll see you back here next week.

1132
01:11:03,867 --> 01:11:33,847
Thank you.

1133
01:11:33,867 --> 01:12:03,847
Thank you.