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Welcome in to This Week in Bitcoin, a special episode. I'm on the road.

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My name is Chris, ChrisLAS.com, JupiterBroadcasting.com.

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Well, before I left, I had a chance to sit down with someone who's proven them wrong every single

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day. All the haters out there that say nobody uses Bitcoin for anything but hodling. You can't

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use it for any day-to-day transactions. Well, this individual is proving them wrong every single day.

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Oscar Mary is building the Fountain.fm podcast app, one of the favorites in the Bitcoin community.

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But did you know Oscar was a Bitcoiner long before he became a podcast app developer?

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I wanted to start just for the audience's sake with Bitcoin. I think that's where we should start

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and if I recall you were a Bitcoiner long before you started working on the Fountain podcasting

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app which obviously integrates Bitcoin. Yeah that's right. I feel very fortunate that I

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discovered Bitcoin relatively early, quite accidentally, didn't understand it for many

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many years but a friend of mine way back in the day who I saw as someone you know very intelligent

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was just like telling me all about it and I was just like okay cool I'll you know just listen to

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you and then yeah the kind of readers were you skeptical no honestly I I was I was I was very

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young at the time and I just didn't even look into it at all but he just told me you know this is

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going to be massive in the future you should you should buy some and so I just bought some and

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forgot about it for for years after that and then maybe in like 2016 2017 kind of learned about in a

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bit more detail became more interested in you know economics and things like that and read the book

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the bitcoin standard which I think was transformative for a lot of people and that was when I kind of

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you know realized oh wait I have some of this and let me go check on it you know that was it wasn't

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like a crazy amount it wasn't like life-changing or anything like that but it was enough to make me

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you know pay attention at that time and obviously the price going up but I think reading

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the bitcoin standard in maybe 2016 2017 was when it clicked for me and also as for many people as

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well, you know, seeing just the problems that Bitcoin solves in your everyday life, you know,

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inflation, you know, I live in London, and the prices of everything are just skyrocketing. And

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eventually, you do have to ask yourself the question, why are the prices for things double

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what they were when I was a child. And so it was kind of the combination of those two things. But

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yeah, I started learning about Bitcoin properly in maybe 2016, 2017, but never thought I would end

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up working with the technology as we do now today with Fountain.

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Wow, no kidding.

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And so you, I'm sure now, know quite a bit about the Lightning Network.

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Did you get into Lightning at all before Fountain, or was it in building Fountain that you needed

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to learn the Lightning Network?

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Yeah, so it was actually very accidental that all of this happened, and we started working

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on Fountain in the sense of what it is today.

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So the kind of backstory is I've always been really passionate and interested in audio as a medium. I think it's such an amazing medium for learning because number one, if you compare it to something like text, you just get so much more depth because you get the speaker's voice, you get the intimacy, you get the tone of what they're saying.

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And I've always believed that audio is a great medium for transmitting, you know, knowledge, information and wisdom.

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I also think that it's great just because it's such a simple reason.

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But you can listen when you're on the go, when you're doing chores.

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You know, again, I'm in London, so I spent a lot of my life sitting on buses for hours going into and back from the office.

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So, yeah, always been interested in audio.

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So before Fountain, I had a previous business that was also working in the audio space with

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voice assistants, things like Amazon Alexa and Google Assistant.

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So I did a lot with audio during that work.

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And yeah, I had a previous business.

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We ended up selling that business.

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And so I had a bit of time in between things to kind of decide what I wanted to do next.

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And I've always been a developer, so I always wanted to build a mobile app.

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So the first version of Fountain was just a side project that I decided to build around, you know, the idea of sharing short form audio content with people that you know.

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And eventually that led to me realizing what's the best source for short form audio content is podcasts because that's where all the audio content is.

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and then it just so happened so we had we had this app and then and then nick who is a friend

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of mine we've known each other for a long time we were kind of like discussing this and working

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on it together but just you know as a side project and then so i was looking around for a podcast api

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and that's when i came across adam and dave and podcasting 2.0 literally about a month i think

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after they'd first launched the show and also introduced the value block into the rss feed so

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that was when it kind of clicked for me straight away. I'd been primed on Bitcoin. I was a massive

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believer in Bitcoin for many years before that. I was very interested in audio and podcasting and

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how we can make podcasts more discoverable and how we can share the insights that exist within

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episodes in a way that you don't have to necessarily follow the feed to see that.

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And then all of a sudden I hear Adam, the podfather and Dave talking about how they're integrating the Lightning Network into podcasting.

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And it just kind of clicked that this was a cool new opportunity within podcasting that leverages this programmable money that we now have with the Lightning Network.

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And so that was when we decided, okay, let's double down on this.

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Let's really lean into payments via the Lightning Network within the podcasting app.

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and we launched Fountain in a very, very bad state.

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But that was how it all got started.

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The timing is, it's really amazing, right?

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Because the Lightning network early on wasn't very usable.

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But by the time Dave and Adam got serious about using it,

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it had gotten to a pretty good place.

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And so the timing that you have with the namespace they put out there

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and the value block and the podcast index API

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combined with Lightning getting to a usable state is it's all it all really kind of came together.

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But, you know, what you ended up doing amongst the other podcasting 2.0 developers

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is created another viable demonstration of how Bitcoin can be used in day to day microtransactions.

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And one of the most common criticisms of Bitcoin is that, well, you can't actually spend it on anything.

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You can't actually send it anywhere and nobody actually uses it for anything.

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But it kind of proved the opposite.

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And now there's a demonstratable microtransaction frequent use here.

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And it's in podcasting and it's in with music and other things.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I think podcasting is just such a great example of an industry and a technology that requires something like lightning because it's fragmented.

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You know, you couldn't have interoperable payments and interoperable metadata, which I know we'll get onto in a bit.

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you couldn't have that with the fiat payment system because it's all closed off behind,

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you know, company APIs. There's no way to share that data publicly. And so it just makes so much

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sense for podcasting. Yeah. It's, it's so great when, you know, I'm doing a podcast and people,

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I'll play a clip of somebody saying you can't use it for transactions. Meanwhile, people are

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literally streaming sats while they listen to the clip. You know, it's just, it's pretty hilarious.

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So, okay, so that brings us to Fountain. And is it over ambitious to say that what you're trying to build here is sort of an open alternative to YouTube or Spotify, something that's on top of standards and open payments and RSS feeds?

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Yeah, I mean, we want to be very ambitious with Fountain. And I think there's just huge opportunity to create a listening experience that delivers from, you know, the UX and design standards of something like Spotify, but introduces open payments and open discovery so that you can, you know, get more from the listening experience.

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and also just interact with the people you follow normally.

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The biggest example I like to think of

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of what we're trying to fix

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is if you imagine a social media site like Twitter or X,

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like historically I've used Twitter a lot.

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I find it incredibly valuable.

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I've learned a lot there.

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I've made great connections on there.

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Generally, it's been an amazing experience.

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But I'm also a huge podcast fan

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and listening to podcasts,

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talking about my favorite podcast is something that I love doing. But on a social media site like

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Twitter or X, there is podcast conversation that goes on there, but it's hidden in this kind of

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massive mess of, you know, politics, rage bait, you know, shocking videos, like all of this stuff

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that kind of naturally bubbles to the top of an attention based algorithm. And I'm unable to find

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the smaller, nicher conversations about podcasts that I love. Even though I follow all of the

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podcast hosts on Twitter, that content just doesn't seem to do well in the kind of global

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attention algorithm that powers what I see in the feed. And that's why I think that if we can

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use these open technologies, Lightning for Payments, NOSTA for Social, to give people

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flexibility in how they use social media and allow them to kind of, you know, selectively hide the

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things that they don't want to see and only see the things that are relevant to them and what

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they're doing at that moment. Like if I open my podcast app or if I open social media on a Saturday

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morning and what I really want to do is find a good long episode to listen to while I'm having

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a walk and having a coffee. I don't want to see, you know, the latest rage bait political tweet.

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I just don't want to see that. I want to see interesting, thoughtful shares about podcast

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episodes that maybe I don't see in my library because I don't follow the feed. I just want to

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see the people that I respect, the people that I follow, what they've been listening to, what

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they've been finding interesting. And that also applies to the time frequency of these feeds as

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well. You know, if you open something like Twitter, you're generally only going to see content from

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the last, you know, 24 hours, maybe 48 hours. But, you know, I may have missed something. I may have

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missed the share about an episode that happened two weeks ago because I don't want to open Twitter

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every day. And that's another aspect to how if you create an open social graph, you can have full

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flexibility on what you see there. So, yeah, to answer your question directly, we would love to,

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you know have the scale of something like spotify but we want to do it in an open way

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whereby the social data that we are using within fountain is not locked into fountain

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you know people can slice and dice it however they want to build their own experiences with their own

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you know sets of algorithms and and trending sections based on whatever they want you know

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i just think there's so much opportunity to preserve what we all love about podcasting which

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is long form content, you know, niche content that just goes so deep on a particular topic

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that is maybe not like, it maybe doesn't have mainstream appeal, but bring the discovery

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features of social media and apply it to that in a way where users have control.

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Like the discovery on social media is good.

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Like there's no denying it.

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It surfaces content that you wouldn't have otherwise seen based on your existing interests,

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your existing follower graph, like that's great. The problem is that there's just one global

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algorithm and there's no way for Twitter to know whether I am in the mood for a podcast episode or

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in the mood for, you know, some political rage bait. It just doesn't know how I'm feeling.

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But as a podcaster, I would say it also biases video considerably, right? It's not surfacing

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podcasts. Exactly, exactly. It's biasing video. So, you know, is the Twitter algorithm going to

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show you, you know, a really insightful recommendation for an episode that's audio

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only and has a link to link out of Twitter? Or is it going to show you a native Twitter video

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with, you know, some political commentary? And I keep using the politics example as a contrast.

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I do like political content sometimes, but just...

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Actually, you're describing my exact use case. Saturday morning, I got some chorin to do,

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and I often fire up the fountain app

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and I take a quick look at the feed

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just to see if I can find something

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that released earlier in the week

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that's long form content

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because I'm going to be working for an hour or two

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and I don't want to switch every 15 minutes.

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And I just want something that isn't going to upset me.

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You know, I just want something

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that's going to be a pleasant listen

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while I do some chores.

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So you're describing my exact Saturday morning.

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And it seems to me like this is the true reason

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why you have put so much effort into integrating Noster.

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And I know there's probably people listening like,

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ah, I don't want to use Noster.

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But this is where that open graph comes from, right?

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This is where that gives you the ability to collect this information

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without having to create some sort of proprietary fountain algorithm

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or proprietary fountain data set.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I mean, it's another example of great timing.

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So for anyone who's listening who's used Fountain for a few years now,

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you'll probably remember the social features that we had pre-Nosta. And it was all, you know,

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just locked into the Fountain app. We had our own profiles, we had our own follower graph,

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we had our own commenting system that only really worked within the Fountain app. And for years,

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we were trying to figure out okay how do we you know create comments sent from other apps How do we publish our own comments so that other apps can ingest them you know the dream of cross comments you know we spent many many years

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thinking about this and eventually when Nostra first kind of came on the scene I did think to

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myself this is it this is the answer but initially we were like okay is Nostra going to grow does it

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have, you know, is it going to work? Are there going to be other clients that are going to start

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generating data that we can ingest? And as NOSTA has grown, it's still very small. I think we came

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to the realization about a year and a half ago that it was going to work for us. Then the question

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was, okay, how do we reliably reference podcasts? How do we kind of join OpenRSS and NOSTA in a way

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that's reliable and so I came up with this nip called nip 73 which is the external content ids

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nip and that took a long time to you know go back and forth with the NOSTA community and figure out

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the right way to do it so but now we have this nip what it essentially does is allows us to reference

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podcast guides at the show level but also item guides at the episode level and with those two

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sets of tags which are designed in a way that they're NOSTA native and can be queried by any

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of the default relay software that's out there it means that now we have a way to tag either a show

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or an episode in any NOSTA event that could be you know a kind one post like the ones we use in

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fountain that could be live chat message for for live streams that could be you know a long form

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article or it could be anything new that comes down the line so once we had those two pieces in

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place you know a bit of traction with NOSTA generally and a bit of stability in some of the

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you know main NOSTA clients like like Primal and Damus and Amethyst plus the NIP 73 external

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content IDs that that kind of enabled us to rebuild all of the social features within Fountain

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to use Nostra. And yeah, we launched the Nostra integration last year. And we just relaunched the

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Nostra integration a couple of weeks ago with our 1.3 release, where we've introduced a bunch of new

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cool things. We've also rebuilt the entire infrastructure for serving the Nostra data.

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So everything's a lot more fast and snappy. But yeah, I mean, Nostra is perfect for what we want

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to do in terms of creating a social experience around podcasts that, you know, only really applies

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to podcasts. And yeah, I mean, at one point, we're thinking, okay, should we use the Twitter API,

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but, you know, that's going to cost us like a crazy amount of money, and could be shut down

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at any time. So I think NOSTA really is, you know, it may not succeed, but I think it has

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an incredible chance to become the social layer of the internet that any developer can build on

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and you can use the data from anywhere to power any different app and yeah i've i've i've i'm

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trying to push the podcasting 2.0 community towards nostr just because i think it ticks

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all of the boxes on what we've been looking for and yeah excited to to have more i know there's a

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lot of people working on new podcast listening experiences that use Noster as well. So excited

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to see those come out. I could definitely see Noster helping the podcasting 2.0 project

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maintain or achieve greater decentralization too. So I think that's a lens in which perhaps

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they should consider it. You know, I've been seeing more engagement on Noster in the last

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three months than I think I have in the last year. So there is something to it. And I do contribute

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some of that to Fountain because if somebody ties their Fountain profile to a Nostra identity and

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then they boost the show, well, then I can easily follow them on Nostra. And so I'm building out

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my Nostra social network just by following folks that follow the show and they follow me. And so

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it's, I don't, there is a bit of a network effect happening there. And I got to say the 1.3 release,

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new home tabs, great. And search is great. The Nostra stuff just feels super smooth now. I didn't,

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I didn't realize you'd rebuilt the infrastructure for it.

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So it really does feel like this is the version you could tell people,

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go out and try this now.

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It's really, it's come a long ways.

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Let's talk about the transition happening in the background around boosts.

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So today, most boosts are done using our old friend Keysend,

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which doesn't really have much adoption in the wider Lightning ecosystem.

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Could you just give us like a TLDR on the history around Keysend

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and why it's maybe not the future of boosting

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and how we need to transition to something,

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but we're not quite there yet.

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Yeah, happy to give a brief history

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of the two different protocols within Lightning

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and also where we're at now

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and why I think this transition makes sense.

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So the key difference between Bolt 11,

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which is what is used under the hood of Lightning address,

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and Keysend is that Bolt 11 requires an invoice.

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So in order to send a payment to someone over the Lightning Network, you need to first request an invoice and then you can pay that invoice.

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And when it comes to metadata, there's only a small field that you can add to when you're paying that invoice.

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It's the comment field.

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And I think it's limited to something like 200 characters, which is why it's not as expressive in terms of what Keysen provides with the TLV records.

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key send on the other hand is kind of like a push payment that doesn't require as much

234
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interactivity you can essentially just push money to any destination if you have that destination's

235
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node pub key so for the kinds of things that podcasting 2.0 has been doing in terms of you

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know the craziness of streaming money every minute and sometimes to large sets of splits you know i've

237
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seen splits up to like 20 different splits so you're talking about 20 individual payments every

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minute you know the amount of interactivity matters and so key send at the beginning looks

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very promising and because of that kind of lower interactivity key send also has the ability to

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attach quite a large amount of metadata in what's called the TLV records so at the beginning of

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Broadcasting 2.0, if you were to choose between Bolt 11 invoices, which is the kind of standard

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way of doing payments on Lightning and Keysend, Keysend would have made a lot more sense. And I

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can see why, you know, Adam and Dave initially adopted that and we used it for years and it

244
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worked really well. The issue with Keysend is the lack of adoption in other wallets and the confusion

245
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that that brings to people coming into the world of Bitcoin, coming into the world of

246
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podcasting 2.0 because you have to remember that with lightning there is slow adoption and this

247
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adoption happens in different ways in different countries around the world in different regions

248
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very few lightning wallets today support the key send protocol and trying to onboard people to

249
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bitcoin and to lightning to a wallet with key send is is very difficult there's just so few options

250
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the other issue with keysend is a ux issue so you know the lightning address is an amazing construct

251
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that i think will be the equivalent of an email address in the future it makes sense to everybody

252
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if you've never heard of bitcoin before if you don't know what the lightning address the lightning

253
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network is if i explain to you that hey this lightning address is like an email address for

254
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money all you have to do is give your lightning address to somebody and they can pay you that

255
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makes sense to anybody it's really clear it's easy to understand it's you know it's side by

256
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side with email as something that people can just understand immediately lightning address is built

257
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on top of bolt 11 and so one of the issues we were seeing with keysend is people saying i have a

258
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lightning address why can i not get paid in podcasting 2.0 i have a lightning address you

259
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know i've got my strike wallet i've got my cash app wallet why can i not participate in podcasting

260
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2.0 and then we'd have to get into the conversation of oh well there's actually two protocols within

261
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lightning there's keysend and there's lnurl bolt 11 lightning address and they're not quite the

262
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same thing and you need to make sure and that's where you lose people in terms of the onboarding

263
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I think I believe Lightning will be the kind of future of the payments layer on the internet.

264
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And the way that it's going to get there is through easy UX.

265
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The easy UX is the Lightning address.

266
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It just makes so much sense.

267
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So yeah, it's the combination of lack of support from wallets and the kind of product market fit easy UX of the Lightning address.

268
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that for me is the kind of core reasons

269
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why podcasting 2.0 community

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wants to move from Key Center Lightning address.

271
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I think that, you know,

272
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obviously I've been a big advocate

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for making this change,

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but I think if you speak to

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any of the podcasters

276
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that are involved with, you know,

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onboarding their audience

278
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who are maybe not that technical

279
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and are brand new to Bitcoin,

280
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or if you speak to app developers

281
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that are trying to understand

282
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how do I attach a wallet to my podcast app?

283
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How do I go through the process of doing that?

284
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I think everyone does agree that Bolt 11

285
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and Lightning Address is the way forward.

286
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It's obviously just a big change within Podcasting 2.0.

287
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And the big outstanding issue is the metadata

288
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and how we solve that.

289
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But I'm convinced that it's the right move.

290
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And the more we can just simplify this for everybody,

291
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the more chance we have of wider adoption of Bitcoin.

292
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and enlightening. It's easier on the podcasters too, right? Because the way it works now is in

293
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order for a listener to send me a boost, I put my node address in the value block in our RSS feed.

294
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Well, a node address is, it's a pretty long thing. And sometimes you have multiple users on a single

295
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node. So then there's a little extra steps you have to take there. And it's not clean. And it's

296
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also not easy to update. Like I have changed out nodes and I don't know, six months later,

297
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I'm still, somebody's got an old cache of the feed and they're sending sats to an old node

298
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address, where if I could just keep the entry in the RSS feed as an email address, as an

299
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LNURL, then on the back end, I change what that LNURL points to.

300
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So I think it's got advantages there.

301
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It's easier for co-hosts, all that stuff.

302
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But you mentioned metadata, and I want to just define a little bit.

303
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So the metadata includes things like what episode you're listening to, what show you're

304
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listening to, your podcast client, and your handle that you've chosen.

305
00:26:20,878 --> 00:26:25,237
Oh, and also, the other thing that's actually quite valuable is the total amount of the

306
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boost that you're sending. So maybe I only get a 5% split, but I know the total amount. So when I go

307
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to give the listener credit on air, I credit them for the total amount, not just the 5% split that

308
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went to my node, because that's also in this. So there's some pretty valuable information in that

309
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metadata, which has not yet been really solved, at least universally, for the LNURL approach.

310
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So I'm curious what your current thoughts are around that challenge.

311
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yeah so it's definitely you're definitely right that metadata is so valuable and any

312
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if we if we're to agree on a system going forward it has to include a provision for sending that

313
00:27:02,118 --> 00:27:08,938
metadata i i think the first thing to say is that i think there are many options here it's just a

314
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question of everybody coming together and choosing an option which is always difficult right it's

315
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always difficult when you're working in you know an open specification with multiple different apps

316
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and hosting companies and you know players for everybody to agree is a difficult thing but i

317
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think that it's possible and there's some really good options out there i would also point out that

318
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the key send metadata did have some flaws one example being what you just mentioned around the

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total if you're only receiving a split. So if you're only receiving a 5% split,

320
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you know, there's just a number that gets inserted into that split payment, which tells you what the

321
00:27:52,818 --> 00:27:57,778
total was, but that is totally spoofable. You know, someone could just put in whatever they

322
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want there. It's not an ideal way of you kind of validating that, validating what the total is and

323
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what the other splits were. The other thing is failed payments as well. That valued MSAT total

324
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field in the TLB doesn't tell you if one of the split payments failed to one of the other

325
00:28:18,957 --> 00:28:22,977
recipients in the episode. So there are issues with the current metadata system.

326
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But I think more importantly, yeah, it's more about the move to Lightning address.

327
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Like, yeah, I can share some ideas on what I think the path forward is, if that's useful.

328
00:28:34,938 --> 00:28:55,058
Yeah, I'd be curious because I think it's a tough spot and there does need to be leadership isn't quite the right word, but there needs to be momentum in here for consensus to be achieved, right? Because it's a loose group of independent folks organized around a project. And so there's not really momentum yet. So I'd be curious to know what you're thinking.

329
00:28:55,058 --> 00:29:12,558
Yeah, okay. I'll share my ideas. So I think you've already heard me talk about Noster and why I love it and why I think it can really help open podcasting kind of not only match the big centralized apps like Spotify, but actually build even better experiences.

330
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So the first idea for sharing metadata via LN address does use NOSTA.

331
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Before I share the details, I also want to say that NOSTA is seeing really good adoption.

332
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And many, many people are having their first experience, their first touchpoint with Lightning on NOSTA.

333
00:29:33,957 --> 00:29:37,598
And they'll download a NOSTA client like Primal, they'll set up a wallet,

334
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and they'll start receiving zaps for their regular posts on social media.

335
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or NOSTA social media.

336
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And so NOSTA clients are onboarding people to Lightning.

337
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They're giving them a Lightning address

338
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and they're also giving them a profile.

339
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And I do think that NOSTA

340
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is gonna be part of the Lightning story

341
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and it's gonna drive the standards in Lightning

342
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going forward.

343
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And so I think the more that Podcasting 2 can align with that the better because we still a very small group and we still yet to see you know a mainstream adoption of Lightning within for example

344
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the existing hosting companies. Yes, some of the hosting companies have added, you know,

345
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freeform fields to, you know, add your key send information, but there's not really been too much

346
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more than that whereas on the NOSTA side there's a lot more kind of like deep integrations with

347
00:30:36,035 --> 00:30:43,995
Lightning and with wallets so and I also think that going forward the way that we are going to

348
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navigate the internet we're going to have two things that we need to navigate the internet the

349
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first is our Lightning address so that we can get paid anywhere and our Lightning wallet so that we

350
00:30:54,795 --> 00:30:59,195
can pay people anywhere on the internet. And the second is going to be our end pub so that we can

351
00:30:59,195 --> 00:31:05,735
interact as us on any website and bring our follower graph and our interest graph to those

352
00:31:05,735 --> 00:31:12,555
websites. So yeah, with that said, the first idea is just to reuse what is already there,

353
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which is the NOSTA ZAP spec. So the way ZAPs work on NOSTA is the person sending the payment

354
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signs a NOSTA event, which is the ZAP request.

355
00:31:24,695 --> 00:31:27,895
And this is the proof that the person sending the payment

356
00:31:27,895 --> 00:31:29,395
has initiated the payment.

357
00:31:30,075 --> 00:31:33,955
And then the receiving wallet signs a ZAP receipt,

358
00:31:34,235 --> 00:31:37,555
which includes the ZAP request inside of it

359
00:31:37,555 --> 00:31:42,015
and publishes that if and only if the payment succeeds.

360
00:31:42,555 --> 00:31:45,175
So this is the way ZAPs work on NOSTA.

361
00:31:45,175 --> 00:31:50,375
And the ZAP spec combined with what I talked about earlier

362
00:31:50,375 --> 00:31:53,195
in terms of those podcast GUID tags in NOSTA event,

363
00:31:53,735 --> 00:31:57,895
has everything we need to publish all of the data

364
00:31:57,895 --> 00:32:01,175
that was previously in the QSEN TLV.

365
00:32:01,775 --> 00:32:03,515
The great thing about this as well

366
00:32:03,515 --> 00:32:08,535
is Lightning wallets already know how to publish Zap receipts.

367
00:32:08,535 --> 00:32:10,575
So if you're using Albi,

368
00:32:11,195 --> 00:32:15,015
Albi wallets know how to publish Zap receipts

369
00:32:15,015 --> 00:32:17,875
because Albi are big supporters and believers in NOSTA.

370
00:32:17,875 --> 00:32:23,275
if you're using strike the strike wallet knows how to publish zap receipts as well

371
00:32:23,275 --> 00:32:31,195
so we don't need to convince the receiving wallets to support nostr and support nostr zap receipts

372
00:32:31,195 --> 00:32:37,515
they already do and more and more supporting nostr and things like nostr wallet connect are becoming

373
00:32:37,515 --> 00:32:43,195
you know the the kind of headline features for lightning wallets and so i think we'll see more

374
00:32:43,195 --> 00:32:49,435
and more these Nostra Zap receipts publishing being supported. So really, if you think about it,

375
00:32:49,835 --> 00:32:58,155
if you had a episode and you had three splits in the episode, you had a fountain wallet as one of

376
00:32:58,155 --> 00:33:04,275
the splits, you had an Albi lightning address as the next split, and then you had a strike wallet

377
00:33:04,275 --> 00:33:11,175
as the third split. All three of those wallets support Nostra Zap receipts. And so for a podcast

378
00:33:11,175 --> 00:33:19,495
app to you know share the metadata about the boost all they have to do is sign a zap request

379
00:33:19,495 --> 00:33:24,975
and attach it when they're create when they're sent when they're paying the bolt 11 lightning

380
00:33:24,975 --> 00:33:31,575
address payment so an app like podcast guru for example which already supports paying lightning

381
00:33:31,575 --> 00:33:37,255
addresses through through their strike integration they already know how to pay bolt 11 invoices

382
00:33:37,255 --> 00:33:44,435
the only difference when sending a zap is just this signing of a zap request and inserting that

383
00:33:44,435 --> 00:33:50,615
into the url when you're requesting the invoice it's actually very simple to do you know you

384
00:33:50,615 --> 00:33:56,155
construct some json which every developer knows how to do and then you sign it using some

385
00:33:56,155 --> 00:34:02,215
cryptographic primitives that are available on every platform there's libraries to do it and

386
00:34:02,215 --> 00:34:09,115
what's cool about this is you can put any tags in the NOSTA zap request so you can put obviously

387
00:34:09,115 --> 00:34:17,115
the episode and show guides which allow you to you know like properly assign the zap to an episode

388
00:34:17,115 --> 00:34:21,915
or a show but you can also put other things in there you can put the message you could put the

389
00:34:21,915 --> 00:34:29,455
timestamp of the episode you could put anything you want really and then when it comes to the value

390
00:34:29,455 --> 00:34:36,635
MSAT total for calculating the total of all splits, you could put that in the NOSTA ZAP

391
00:34:36,635 --> 00:34:41,615
request. But also, there's actually a better way to do it, which is just to query the NOSTA

392
00:34:41,615 --> 00:34:46,655
network for all of the ZAP receipts, because then you can take into account failed payments

393
00:34:46,655 --> 00:34:53,315
and things like that. So yeah, option one for how I think we should move forward is just reusing

394
00:34:53,315 --> 00:34:58,115
what's already there, what already has adoption on every single NOSTA client, which is the ZAP

395
00:34:58,115 --> 00:35:04,235
spec right um it doesn't change anything for podcasting 2.0 you know interactions we don't

396
00:35:04,235 --> 00:35:09,835
have to call them zaps we can still call them boost it's just the way that podcasting 2.0 apps

397
00:35:09,835 --> 00:35:15,575
and hosting companies will pass around this data is on the nostor network yeah the lift there is on

398
00:35:15,575 --> 00:35:20,875
the developer side i suppose the the upside would be is then assuming you had broad adoption

399
00:35:20,875 --> 00:35:27,195
if people that were creating these apps wanted they'd have a rich set of discovery data that

400
00:35:27,195 --> 00:35:28,555
they could integrate into their apps.

401
00:35:28,995 --> 00:35:29,695
Exactly, yeah.

402
00:35:30,575 --> 00:35:35,955
As Fountain, we would love to see all of the boosts happening

403
00:35:35,955 --> 00:35:38,655
on all of the different podcasting 2.0 apps

404
00:35:38,655 --> 00:35:42,095
and put them on our episode pages, display them in our feeds.

405
00:35:42,635 --> 00:35:43,715
We would love to do that.

406
00:35:44,055 --> 00:35:47,435
And also, our payment information is already out there.

407
00:35:47,515 --> 00:35:49,815
We publish it on Nostra via the ZapSpec today.

408
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:53,735
So if any app developer wants to query the Fountain relay

409
00:35:53,735 --> 00:35:55,935
for Zaps for a specific episode,

410
00:35:55,935 --> 00:36:01,735
you can do that today it's really easy you know it's a very small query just based on the show

411
00:36:01,735 --> 00:36:10,075
good and the episode good so it also doing it this way doesn't just solve the problem of how do we

412
00:36:10,075 --> 00:36:17,295
send the metadata it also solves the problem of how do we have the metadata available for anybody

413
00:36:17,295 --> 00:36:23,895
that wants to query it and use it in an interesting way which with the keys and tlv we that that

414
00:36:23,895 --> 00:36:29,375
didn't exist. There's no way for me to kind of, you know, connect into someone's helipad and pull

415
00:36:29,375 --> 00:36:33,395
out all of the payment data so that I can include it. I was just thinking like you could see somebody

416
00:36:33,395 --> 00:36:39,435
out there build a helipad as a service that pulls this from Nostra for podcasters, because I don't

417
00:36:39,435 --> 00:36:43,475
know how other podcasters collect their booths and read them on air. Like we've had to build

418
00:36:43,475 --> 00:36:48,595
a series of tools to collect them and mark them up and format them. Like somebody could build that

419
00:36:48,595 --> 00:36:52,755
as a service if that information was publicly available. Yeah, exactly. And I've always thought

420
00:36:52,755 --> 00:37:00,295
like the service that's going to build the best, you know, charts within podcasting shouldn't be

421
00:37:00,295 --> 00:37:06,175
one of the apps or hosting companies. It should be, you know, someone who collates that data from

422
00:37:06,175 --> 00:37:13,075
everywhere. And if we have a metadata system for payments and social data, like comments,

423
00:37:13,395 --> 00:37:19,775
that is truly open and anyone can query, then it allows those like third party services to spin up

424
00:37:19,775 --> 00:37:21,675
and provide value in different ways.

425
00:37:21,815 --> 00:37:23,515
And that's how we can get to the point

426
00:37:23,515 --> 00:37:26,075
where we're really competing with apps like Spotify

427
00:37:26,075 --> 00:37:28,495
because, you know, Fountain, we're a tiny team.

428
00:37:28,915 --> 00:37:31,675
You know, we don't have the resources to do everything.

429
00:37:31,855 --> 00:37:34,575
But if we can make all of the data open,

430
00:37:34,935 --> 00:37:36,315
then we don't have to.

431
00:37:36,475 --> 00:37:38,175
You know, everybody can kind of pick the thing

432
00:37:38,175 --> 00:37:39,415
that they're most interested in,

433
00:37:39,455 --> 00:37:42,515
whether that's analytics, whether that's, you know, social,

434
00:37:42,695 --> 00:37:44,535
whether that's onboarding, whether that's payments

435
00:37:44,535 --> 00:37:46,355
and just contribute their little piece.

436
00:37:46,935 --> 00:37:47,915
That's a great point.

437
00:37:48,195 --> 00:37:49,555
And it adds just another, yes,

438
00:37:49,555 --> 00:37:51,455
We have something that's super chat competitive.

439
00:37:52,035 --> 00:37:52,915
We have a live competitive.

440
00:37:53,095 --> 00:37:55,335
I think you and I are pretty much in consensus here.

441
00:37:55,455 --> 00:38:00,155
The challenge seems to be it is a lift for these app developers.

442
00:38:00,735 --> 00:38:04,075
And some of them have already gone down the path of activity pub.

443
00:38:04,215 --> 00:38:10,555
Other folks are sort of committed to doing as little as possible on the client side and not having server infrastructure.

444
00:38:10,775 --> 00:38:15,055
So that seems to be maybe where the biggest friction is just the lift by the developers.

445
00:38:15,095 --> 00:38:15,575
Don't you think?

446
00:38:16,235 --> 00:38:17,035
Yeah, I think so.

447
00:38:17,035 --> 00:38:25,075
And I think that, to be honest, you know, I think you were right when you said it requires some momentum.

448
00:38:25,435 --> 00:38:32,715
And I think, you know, from my perspective, originally, I think it was December of last year, which is when I went on Podcasting 2.0.

449
00:38:32,775 --> 00:38:37,555
And we talked through, you know, the switch to LN address and why it was important.

450
00:38:38,095 --> 00:38:43,275
And, you know, generally there was consensus then that, yes, we want to do this.

451
00:38:43,295 --> 00:38:44,435
It's going to be difficult.

452
00:38:44,615 --> 00:38:45,775
It's going to take time.

453
00:38:45,775 --> 00:39:02,355
I think to be honest, like we've just been so busy with Fountain 1.3 launch, you know, getting the Fountain app to a place, as you say, where we can share it and showcase a great experience that we haven't put that much time into it in terms of showcasing how easy it can be.

454
00:39:02,355 --> 00:39:11,755
So I think, you know, now that we've got 1.3 out of the way, we can kind of do more in terms of showcasing actually how easy it is.

455
00:39:11,855 --> 00:39:22,515
If you're already paying a Bolt 11 invoice, like Podcast Guru, for example, to attach a signed JSON payload to that payment request is very easy.

456
00:39:22,775 --> 00:39:24,795
It doesn't take much time.

457
00:39:24,795 --> 00:39:34,475
And also the important thing to note is that you don't have to use NOSTA's social features to use the data transport features of NOSTA.

458
00:39:34,635 --> 00:39:37,675
You don't have to add profiles to your app.

459
00:39:37,795 --> 00:39:39,635
You don't have to add comments.

460
00:39:39,915 --> 00:39:41,435
You don't have to do any of that.

461
00:39:41,975 --> 00:39:46,435
You can just use the NOSTA network for transmitting the payment metadata.

462
00:39:47,175 --> 00:39:52,495
I'm really glad you mentioned that because I think that is something people kind of connect is, oh, now I have to have a NOSTA profile.

463
00:39:52,595 --> 00:39:52,995
And it's right.

464
00:39:52,995 --> 00:40:01,335
It's in a way, it's this unbelievable gift of this decentralized relay network that moves notes around.

465
00:40:01,635 --> 00:40:03,595
And you could just think of it as that, really.

466
00:40:03,775 --> 00:40:09,775
And that's where I'm really surprised that the developers of these different apps haven't leaned more into it when you think of it that way.

467
00:40:10,035 --> 00:40:19,395
But so speaking of momentum, is the thought to try to come up with a workable system that Fountain can show as sort of like a here's an example?

468
00:40:19,395 --> 00:40:26,535
yeah that that's that's the goal is to just have some sample code that shows okay you know side by

469
00:40:26,535 --> 00:40:32,555
side here's what you were inserting to the keys and tlv before and here's how you can just recreate

470
00:40:32,555 --> 00:40:39,015
that exact thing attach it to the lightning address bolt 11 payment and publish it to a relay and like

471
00:40:39,015 --> 00:40:44,135
literally here's the code like here's the the javascript code if you're using react native

472
00:40:44,135 --> 00:40:58,295
Here's the Swift code if you're using iOS and just showcase that code because I think that it can be intimidating, especially when you think about, you know, cryptographic signing and key pairs and stuff like that.

473
00:40:58,395 --> 00:41:00,075
But the libraries exist.

474
00:41:00,215 --> 00:41:01,015
It's very easy.

475
00:41:01,435 --> 00:41:02,795
You don't have to have a profile.

476
00:41:02,995 --> 00:41:09,555
You don't even have to have, you know, the ability like Fountain has where you can import your Nostra profile.

477
00:41:09,555 --> 00:41:14,715
you could just create a key pair that lives in the podcast app and it never goes anywhere and

478
00:41:14,715 --> 00:41:19,775
it's just purely for sending metadata so yeah that's definitely the plan to get some sample

479
00:41:19,775 --> 00:41:24,435
code out here and and hopefully just find one other app that is willing to do this i mean

480
00:41:24,435 --> 00:41:30,095
wave lake for music already does this they use the same spec all of the payments that happen

481
00:41:30,095 --> 00:41:35,775
in the wave lake mobile app get broadcast onto nostr so as a developer if you were to go and

482
00:41:35,775 --> 00:41:41,595
query either the fountain relay or the wave lake relay today you would be able to pull all of the

483
00:41:41,595 --> 00:41:46,875
boosts for all of the music whether it's hosted on wave lake or self-hosted or anywhere else

484
00:41:46,875 --> 00:41:52,195
and you'd be able to load all of the boosts for for a particular track or a particular artist or

485
00:41:52,195 --> 00:41:59,115
a particular album so it is working it's just you know it just requires that final push and that big

486
00:41:59,115 --> 00:42:03,255
change but i i'm hopeful i think i think we're getting there you know i think spoken to some of

487
00:42:03,255 --> 00:42:05,615
the other podcasting 2.0 app developers,

488
00:42:05,915 --> 00:42:06,955
they're looking into this,

489
00:42:07,015 --> 00:42:07,835
they're working on it,

490
00:42:07,895 --> 00:42:10,355
identifying different choices.

491
00:42:10,355 --> 00:42:11,115
But I think, yeah,

492
00:42:11,475 --> 00:42:14,575
one big final kind of pitch

493
00:42:14,575 --> 00:42:16,335
from me on the Noster side

494
00:42:16,335 --> 00:42:17,615
would maybe be helpful.

495
00:42:17,795 --> 00:42:19,935
So hopefully I'll send this episode around.

496
00:42:20,155 --> 00:42:22,395
Maybe we can see what progress we'll make.

497
00:42:23,155 --> 00:42:23,595
I hope so.

498
00:42:24,135 --> 00:42:25,475
I'm keen to,

499
00:42:26,075 --> 00:42:27,855
I am keen to see that transition work out.

500
00:42:28,135 --> 00:42:28,955
A lot of the,

501
00:42:28,995 --> 00:42:30,015
for the reasons you articulated

502
00:42:30,015 --> 00:42:32,595
around just the ease of use of LN URL

503
00:42:32,595 --> 00:42:36,515
and the fact that sort of unlike Keysend,

504
00:42:37,175 --> 00:42:38,935
it's the, all of this,

505
00:42:39,055 --> 00:42:40,615
this would be based on technology

506
00:42:40,615 --> 00:42:41,715
that's sort of ascending

507
00:42:41,715 --> 00:42:43,815
because not only do you have the Noster network effect,

508
00:42:43,915 --> 00:42:45,775
but like you mentioned, Strike,

509
00:42:46,175 --> 00:42:48,315
which is an extremely fast growing application.

510
00:42:48,415 --> 00:42:51,095
And there's several others too that support it already.

511
00:42:51,315 --> 00:42:53,675
Primal also is becoming more and more

512
00:42:53,675 --> 00:42:55,715
of just a go-to lightning wallet for folks

513
00:42:55,715 --> 00:42:57,255
that just works out of the box.

514
00:42:57,415 --> 00:43:00,295
And so there's just, there's a lot we could tap into

515
00:43:00,295 --> 00:43:01,895
and sort of ride that wave there.

516
00:43:01,895 --> 00:43:20,715
Yeah. And I think the other thing as well is, and I know your audience is very technical, Chris, but anyone who hasn't, who has just a tiny little bit of technical experience, just go and open up a WebSocket client and just connect to a relay and start playing around.

517
00:43:20,715 --> 00:43:24,155
because I think once you have that experience

518
00:43:24,155 --> 00:43:27,055
where you see, oh wait, all of the data in Primal

519
00:43:27,055 --> 00:43:29,175
is just available to me if I want it.

520
00:43:29,235 --> 00:43:31,055
I can query it, I can export it,

521
00:43:31,115 --> 00:43:32,515
I could set up my own relay.

522
00:43:33,075 --> 00:43:36,275
It just kind of makes you realize how powerful this is

523
00:43:36,275 --> 00:43:39,095
when you compare it to something like the Twitter

524
00:43:39,095 --> 00:43:41,935
or Facebook or TikTok world

525
00:43:41,935 --> 00:43:45,255
where everything is just behind a closed wall

526
00:43:45,255 --> 00:43:46,635
and you can't get access to it.

527
00:43:46,695 --> 00:43:48,155
You don't really know what's going on.

528
00:43:48,815 --> 00:43:50,695
Right, it actually could very easily

529
00:43:50,695 --> 00:43:56,175
see me wanting to run my own relay in the future if this was a system you know that's and again it

530
00:43:56,175 --> 00:44:01,375
comes back to i do kind of like to self-host a lot of this not all of it but yeah yeah so like

531
00:44:01,375 --> 00:44:09,035
so like yeah you could absolutely and we we've built our own relay at fountain because we have

532
00:44:09,035 --> 00:44:16,875
kind of like an additional layer of feed building for specific mediums so we have like podcast only

533
00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:23,915
feeds and music only feeds in the app so we've we've built our relay from scratch twice once again

534
00:44:23,915 --> 00:44:29,915
with the 1.3 release and yeah it's like it's totally possible to go go and build your own

535
00:44:29,915 --> 00:44:36,055
relay and if the scope of what you're building is narrow like let's say you only cared about

536
00:44:36,055 --> 00:44:42,575
NOSTA events that have these podcast tags in them then the data set is not going to be that large

537
00:44:42,575 --> 00:44:48,615
either. So you can run it on a very, you know, a very cheap server, you can, you know, not have to

538
00:44:48,615 --> 00:44:54,115
worry about scaling or anything like that. So it's very enjoyable to go out there and yeah, build a

539
00:44:54,115 --> 00:44:59,195
very simple relay. And there's great open source, like starter projects for relays as well. Like

540
00:44:59,195 --> 00:45:04,835
there's one, there's the stir fry relay, there's just a bunch of different projects that let you

541
00:45:04,835 --> 00:45:09,435
get started. Well, you know, this really could be another one of those perfect timing moments,

542
00:45:09,435 --> 00:45:22,053
because the Noster Network is built out the ZapSpec is well understood clients are supporting it And podcasting 2 does need a solution to replace the keys and base boost Because right now

543
00:45:22,153 --> 00:45:26,853
like you said, we're just limited to a handful of clients. And it sort of means less people can

544
00:45:26,853 --> 00:45:32,393
participate. So hopefully we see this get resolved. Of course, I'm sure I'll be trying out whatever

545
00:45:32,393 --> 00:45:38,993
comes along. So the audience will stay tuned for the ride with me. I wanted to chat about something

546
00:45:38,993 --> 00:45:40,993
that I don't think I've ever heard you speak to before.

547
00:45:41,713 --> 00:45:43,773
And so I've thought about long-term

548
00:45:43,773 --> 00:45:44,973
here at Jupyter Broadcasting,

549
00:45:45,273 --> 00:45:47,933
I think we'll probably try to use our Bitcoin

550
00:45:47,933 --> 00:45:49,233
not as like a treasury,

551
00:45:49,593 --> 00:45:52,553
but as kind of a strategic reserve in a sense

552
00:45:52,553 --> 00:45:55,373
where if there's a really bad year

553
00:45:55,373 --> 00:45:57,613
or if there's a crazy project that we want to try

554
00:45:57,613 --> 00:45:59,493
that there's a hard way to fund,

555
00:45:59,493 --> 00:46:02,473
I view it as people that are supporting the shows today

556
00:46:02,473 --> 00:46:05,073
are giving the network future runway

557
00:46:05,073 --> 00:46:06,793
and flexibility down the road.

558
00:46:06,793 --> 00:46:20,413
And I'm curious if you've had any thoughts around how Fountain might have, if there will be a Bitcoin strategy, if there already is talks of a Bitcoin strategy where Fountain may accumulate some Bitcoin for your balance sheet over time.

559
00:46:20,413 --> 00:46:35,773
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of our goals is to, you know, have revenue in Bitcoin because we think that it just puts us in a really strong position for the future.

560
00:46:35,773 --> 00:46:43,053
so we want our revenue to be in bitcoin and that's why with all of the payment payments

561
00:46:43,053 --> 00:46:47,993
features other than the app subscription to placate apple and google we have the option

562
00:46:47,993 --> 00:46:55,853
to pay in bitcoin and we take our very small fee in bitcoin i think whilst you know i would love to

563
00:46:55,853 --> 00:47:03,233
have you know a massive bitcoin treasury for the company and you know think about those kind of

564
00:47:03,233 --> 00:47:09,893
things. I don't really, to be honest, because the priorities for me are more immediate in terms of

565
00:47:09,893 --> 00:47:16,813
improving the listening experience within the app, you know, helping podcasters and their audience

566
00:47:16,813 --> 00:47:21,873
understand Bitcoin and feel comfortable with it. And I just think that there's so much more

567
00:47:21,873 --> 00:47:30,233
work to do in particularly those two areas of UX and onboarding that thinking about

568
00:47:30,233 --> 00:47:36,593
things like a long-term Bitcoin treasury for Fountain as a company just seems kind of like

569
00:47:36,593 --> 00:47:43,693
too far into the future. But yeah, I think the more that we can have our revenue in Bitcoin,

570
00:47:43,693 --> 00:47:49,733
the better. But ultimately, that's going to be through our small transaction fees

571
00:47:49,733 --> 00:47:58,352
on the support payments. But yeah, it is interesting. I think as well, the other thing

572
00:47:58,352 --> 00:48:05,913
I would say is that I think the services like transcripts and things,

573
00:48:06,133 --> 00:48:12,333
there's a lot more interesting work we can do there in terms of sending a micro payment

574
00:48:12,333 --> 00:48:16,273
to gain access to some kind of transcript-based feature.

575
00:48:16,393 --> 00:48:18,293
I think there's a lot there we can explore as well.

576
00:48:18,633 --> 00:48:19,213
Right, right.

577
00:48:19,713 --> 00:48:25,493
I do think it's pretty neat, too, the experimentation with supporting different payment methods

578
00:48:25,493 --> 00:48:27,753
for subscriptions and bonus episodes

579
00:48:27,753 --> 00:48:30,273
where you can subscribe with fiat or sats.

580
00:48:30,413 --> 00:48:32,153
And you can also do a one-off purchase

581
00:48:32,153 --> 00:48:33,793
with sats or fiat.

582
00:48:34,393 --> 00:48:36,253
That seems like one of the root

583
00:48:36,253 --> 00:48:37,273
of what I'm trying to get at is like,

584
00:48:37,313 --> 00:48:40,113
what's the long-term kind of strategy

585
00:48:40,113 --> 00:48:42,233
for a company that is embracing Bitcoin,

586
00:48:42,433 --> 00:48:43,893
that is trying to onboard people

587
00:48:43,893 --> 00:48:44,873
to all these technologies

588
00:48:44,873 --> 00:48:47,553
that doesn't involve like slapping

589
00:48:47,553 --> 00:48:49,053
a bunch of ads into the app.

590
00:48:49,653 --> 00:48:50,773
I mean, I know you have the premium membership,

591
00:48:50,893 --> 00:48:51,653
which I'm a member of,

592
00:48:51,753 --> 00:48:52,973
but I'm kind of curious

593
00:48:52,973 --> 00:48:53,793
what your thoughts are there.

594
00:48:53,793 --> 00:48:55,193
And it sounds like a bit of it might be

595
00:48:55,193 --> 00:48:57,053
some of the small transaction fees.

596
00:48:57,373 --> 00:48:59,373
But do you think that's enough there

597
00:48:59,373 --> 00:49:00,713
with that and the memberships?

598
00:49:01,153 --> 00:49:04,113
Yeah, so I'll just run through

599
00:49:04,113 --> 00:49:07,373
the ways that Fountain makes money as a business.

600
00:49:07,533 --> 00:49:09,393
The first is our app premium subscription

601
00:49:09,393 --> 00:49:11,833
and we're really appreciative to everyone

602
00:49:11,833 --> 00:49:14,953
that supports us through the app premium subscription.

603
00:49:15,793 --> 00:49:19,833
We wouldn't be where we are at today without that.

604
00:49:20,333 --> 00:49:21,733
So we're really grateful for it.

605
00:49:21,793 --> 00:49:24,153
I also know that the majority of the people

606
00:49:24,153 --> 00:49:28,793
that subscribe via the app premium subscription do so because they like what we're doing like the

607
00:49:28,793 --> 00:49:35,473
actual the what you get for that is lower transaction fees from five percent to one percent

608
00:49:35,473 --> 00:49:40,513
but most people just do it because they like what we're doing and we can definitely improve that in

609
00:49:40,513 --> 00:49:45,433
terms of making the premium subscription more valuable we've got some great stuff coming down

610
00:49:45,433 --> 00:49:52,352
the line which yeah it should make the experience of using the app better the other is since we've

611
00:49:52,352 --> 00:49:58,273
moved into also offering a hosting product through our kind of merging with RSS Blue.

612
00:49:59,013 --> 00:50:06,953
That is a paid product and we want to, you know, offer great value to podcasters and have them make

613
00:50:06,953 --> 00:50:13,673
money and so they can pay us for the product. I think that will be significant revenue for us

614
00:50:13,673 --> 00:50:18,073
going forward. And then finally, there's the transaction fees on the support payment. So

615
00:50:18,073 --> 00:50:23,333
whether you are sending a boost, streaming stats every minute, supporting a podcaster through the

616
00:50:23,333 --> 00:50:28,653
monthly subscription that they set up, or just purchasing a one-off bonus episode, you know,

617
00:50:28,793 --> 00:50:35,453
Fountain takes a small fee on that. But over time, we think that that can be massive. Because

618
00:50:35,453 --> 00:50:40,333
if you look at something like Patreon, it's a massive business, and it helps podcasters make,

619
00:50:40,493 --> 00:50:46,313
you know, a massive amount of money. I think the issue with Patreon is that it's closed off. So

620
00:50:46,313 --> 00:50:51,433
the biggest example I've always thought about is if you subscribe to a private feed on Patreon,

621
00:50:51,693 --> 00:50:58,093
or one of the other services that does similar things, and then you, you know, you can't share

622
00:50:58,093 --> 00:51:03,153
it. So you might have listened to like, the example I always give is Dan Carlin, right? I love Dan

623
00:51:03,153 --> 00:51:07,813
Carlin, some of the best history episodes I've ever listened to. But there's no way for me to

624
00:51:07,813 --> 00:51:12,613
share those episodes with people because they're behind a paywall. And they're also behind a

625
00:51:12,613 --> 00:51:18,433
terrible kind of UX flow with a really old sign up process, private feed, you know, it's just a

626
00:51:18,433 --> 00:51:24,013
terrible experience. I think what we can do and what we want to do is to recreate the kind of

627
00:51:24,013 --> 00:51:28,993
frictionless payment experience of Patreon, but do it in a way where it's open and it's not hidden.

628
00:51:28,993 --> 00:51:33,673
So you can still share the episode, you can still comment on the episode, you can still,

629
00:51:33,673 --> 00:51:38,553
you know, send a one off payment to the episode, you can see what people in your follower graph

630
00:51:38,553 --> 00:51:43,993
are saying about that episode. So I think there's a lot of opportunity there. And then back to your

631
00:51:43,993 --> 00:51:52,213
original question about Bitcoin, you know, we know that the journey of moving the world of payments

632
00:51:52,213 --> 00:51:58,293
on the internet to Bitcoin and the Lightning Network is not easy. It's not easy to onboard

633
00:51:58,293 --> 00:52:05,173
people to this technology because it's intimidating. There's a lot of fear about Bitcoin being a scam

634
00:52:05,173 --> 00:52:08,593
and all of these things that headlines have told people.

635
00:52:09,273 --> 00:52:12,352
And so that's the reason that with the new subscription

636
00:52:12,352 --> 00:52:14,653
and one-time purchase features,

637
00:52:14,653 --> 00:52:16,893
we've added the ability to use Stripe

638
00:52:16,893 --> 00:52:19,393
so that when we're talking to podcasters,

639
00:52:19,493 --> 00:52:21,813
when we're talking to people about the payment experience,

640
00:52:21,813 --> 00:52:24,013
we can say, hey, this is exactly like Patreon.

641
00:52:24,173 --> 00:52:25,253
You can pay with Apple Pay.

642
00:52:25,593 --> 00:52:26,773
You can pay with a bank card.

643
00:52:27,113 --> 00:52:28,352
Don't worry, it's totally fine.

644
00:52:28,713 --> 00:52:31,373
But then I think the way that we transition people to Bitcoin

645
00:52:31,373 --> 00:52:32,253
is the fees.

646
00:52:32,253 --> 00:52:38,933
because currently the fees on the bank card payments are much higher.

647
00:52:39,413 --> 00:52:44,313
So it's about 8% in total, whereas the fees on Lightning payments are only 2%.

648
00:52:44,313 --> 00:52:49,673
So if we can build up trust with podcasters that are not so familiar with Bitcoin

649
00:52:49,673 --> 00:52:54,113
and then say to them, hey, you're using this product, it's working for you,

650
00:52:54,573 --> 00:52:57,953
why don't you ask your audience to try the Bitcoin payments

651
00:52:57,953 --> 00:53:01,352
because you'll have 4x lower fees.

652
00:53:01,352 --> 00:53:06,233
And so ultimately, I think that's the way that we can slowly onboard people to Bitcoin and Lightning.

653
00:53:07,073 --> 00:53:14,873
Yeah, and I think another key thing, and I know this is always something you're working on, but making it easier for new folks to acquire sats.

654
00:53:14,993 --> 00:53:15,852
Yeah, yeah.

655
00:53:16,373 --> 00:53:23,573
This has been such a struggle because, you know, this is something that we talked about, you know, three years ago.

656
00:53:23,573 --> 00:53:30,653
It's been top of our priority list for so long, but it's really frustrating that it's out of our control.

657
00:53:30,653 --> 00:53:33,733
because in order to do it in a compliant way,

658
00:53:34,233 --> 00:53:36,453
we have to have the right licenses.

659
00:53:37,133 --> 00:53:40,313
So we're working really closely with Zebedee

660
00:53:40,313 --> 00:53:42,893
who power all of our payments infrastructure

661
00:53:42,893 --> 00:53:46,293
and we should have something to kind of share

662
00:53:46,293 --> 00:53:47,953
and showcase on that very soon

663
00:53:47,953 --> 00:53:50,593
because yeah, right now it's too difficult.

664
00:53:51,073 --> 00:53:53,053
We used to have an integration with MoonPay

665
00:53:53,053 --> 00:53:54,533
so that you could buy stats in the app,

666
00:53:54,633 --> 00:53:56,953
but the user experience was so bad

667
00:53:56,953 --> 00:54:00,332
that we actually felt it was kind of putting people off a bit,

668
00:54:00,332 --> 00:54:03,153
but we should have some news on that soon.

669
00:54:03,773 --> 00:54:08,653
But yeah, that is a real difficulty.

670
00:54:09,473 --> 00:54:09,913
Yeah.

671
00:54:10,852 --> 00:54:11,253
Yeah.

672
00:54:11,493 --> 00:54:13,293
You know, one of the ways that,

673
00:54:13,533 --> 00:54:15,033
I mean, not to circle back again,

674
00:54:15,193 --> 00:54:17,033
but if they're on Noster

675
00:54:17,033 --> 00:54:18,832
and people are getting zapped for their content

676
00:54:18,832 --> 00:54:19,673
or they're on Fountain

677
00:54:19,673 --> 00:54:21,673
and they're earning sats listening to podcasts,

678
00:54:22,293 --> 00:54:24,093
they can just turn around and boost that.

679
00:54:24,173 --> 00:54:25,533
And I hear from people that do that.

680
00:54:25,613 --> 00:54:27,473
You know, every week I'll get somebody

681
00:54:27,473 --> 00:54:29,253
that sent in their sats that they earned on Fountain

682
00:54:29,253 --> 00:54:31,113
or they got zapped on Noster.

683
00:54:31,273 --> 00:54:33,873
So it's a way for people to get started

684
00:54:33,873 --> 00:54:35,973
without even having to connect to,

685
00:54:36,173 --> 00:54:39,233
you know, a bank account and a sat source.

686
00:54:39,373 --> 00:54:40,933
So there's something there to that too,

687
00:54:41,033 --> 00:54:42,513
embracing that ecosystem for that reason.

688
00:54:43,193 --> 00:54:43,793
Yeah, definitely.

689
00:54:43,953 --> 00:54:46,053
I think there's a lot more that can be done

690
00:54:46,053 --> 00:54:47,373
in that area as well.

691
00:54:47,493 --> 00:54:51,352
I think, you know, that we want to do a lot more

692
00:54:51,352 --> 00:54:54,513
with the like earnings and reward features within Fountain,

693
00:54:54,653 --> 00:54:56,953
but we kind of paused all of that

694
00:54:56,953 --> 00:55:00,593
because we just wanted to focus 100% on the listener experience,

695
00:55:00,733 --> 00:55:03,293
the UX of the library, the UX of the player,

696
00:55:03,832 --> 00:55:06,233
the native features like CarPlay,

697
00:55:06,493 --> 00:55:08,913
all of the things that make the listening experience better.

698
00:55:09,513 --> 00:55:12,253
So once we still have more to do,

699
00:55:12,413 --> 00:55:16,093
but once all of that feels in a really solid place,

700
00:55:16,133 --> 00:55:17,832
then we can re-look at some of those features

701
00:55:17,832 --> 00:55:20,352
that make it more easy and fun for someone that's new

702
00:55:20,352 --> 00:55:23,352
to acquire their first Bitcoin for free

703
00:55:23,352 --> 00:55:26,753
by winning something or...

704
00:55:26,753 --> 00:55:28,713
participating, things like that.

705
00:55:29,673 --> 00:55:30,813
The buzz that would generate.

706
00:55:31,193 --> 00:55:33,933
Well, 1.3 is a great release.

707
00:55:34,393 --> 00:55:36,593
I had been biting my tongue because I've been on the beta

708
00:55:36,593 --> 00:55:38,393
and I kind of knew what was coming

709
00:55:38,393 --> 00:55:40,253
and I knew what my favorite features were,

710
00:55:40,393 --> 00:55:43,513
but it's really great to see just a steady level

711
00:55:43,513 --> 00:55:44,873
of improvements coming.

712
00:55:45,053 --> 00:55:47,253
So if people haven't checked out Fountain for a while,

713
00:55:47,373 --> 00:55:49,873
go to fountain.fm and get the latest version

714
00:55:49,873 --> 00:55:52,173
because it's coming along really nice.

715
00:55:52,773 --> 00:55:54,133
Oscar, thanks for spending some time with me

716
00:55:54,133 --> 00:55:55,073
and going over all of this.

717
00:55:55,073 --> 00:56:00,573
yeah thanks so much Chris really enjoyed talking with you and as always like really appreciate

718
00:56:00,573 --> 00:56:06,113
all of the support and the feedback that you give us it's incredible and also you know so many of

719
00:56:06,113 --> 00:56:10,013
your audience as well who share really great feedback with us you know we listen to everything

720
00:56:10,013 --> 00:56:17,352
so yeah great to catch up I'll keep pushing hard on the metadata issue because I think if we can

721
00:56:17,352 --> 00:56:22,233
solve it and bring some of this interoperability that I've talked about I think it's going to level

722
00:56:22,233 --> 00:56:28,993
up open podcasting and showcase the lightning network but yeah if anyone listening you know

723
00:56:28,993 --> 00:56:34,473
has any feedback about the app or anything i've talked about today like please do reach out you

724
00:56:34,473 --> 00:56:40,013
know my email is oscar at fountain.fm or you can just tag me on nostr or on twitter anything like

725
00:56:40,013 --> 00:56:45,693
that yeah we really appreciate all the feedback because sometimes it's just you know the tiniest

726
00:56:45,693 --> 00:56:50,933
things that you know we're heads down every day we don't notice about the way the app works or the

727
00:56:50,933 --> 00:56:55,993
design. So we really appreciate all that feedback. You might get a little more luck on Nostar than

728
00:56:55,993 --> 00:56:59,753
X, I'm just saying, but thank you, sir. It's good to talk to you.

729
00:57:10,352 --> 00:57:14,213
I hope you enjoyed that chat with Oscar. He has a very sharp mind. I'm always impressed

730
00:57:14,213 --> 00:57:18,073
how he can hold the question, give a long explanation, and then come back to the original

731
00:57:18,073 --> 00:57:23,073
question and answer everything in there. We did get into the podcasting weeds a bit,

732
00:57:23,813 --> 00:57:28,233
but I feel like there's probably very few interviewers, not to boast, who could ask

733
00:57:28,233 --> 00:57:32,473
some of the questions I could. There are some, but not many. So I hope you found it insightful

734
00:57:32,473 --> 00:57:35,733
that we were able to get into some of that kind of stuff and the wider Bitcoin topics as well.

735
00:57:36,332 --> 00:57:38,653
Let me know how I did with the boost. Would you like to hear another one of these?

736
00:57:39,153 --> 00:57:43,053
Let me know, or maybe you wouldn't. You can also support the show by doing what you do.

737
00:57:43,053 --> 00:57:47,813
You can buy your sats on River. One of the best ways to stack sats in the U.S.,

738
00:57:47,813 --> 00:57:49,793
You can support the show by using the link in our show notes.

739
00:57:50,093 --> 00:57:52,773
If you're all about self-custody, the Bitcoin will.

740
00:57:53,473 --> 00:57:57,973
An amazing automatic self-custody Bitcoin platform in Canada and the United States.

741
00:57:58,453 --> 00:58:01,913
And if you've got some sats burning a hole in your pocket on the Lightning Network,

742
00:58:02,493 --> 00:58:03,993
the Bitcoin company.

743
00:58:04,253 --> 00:58:05,213
Again, link in the notes.

744
00:58:05,332 --> 00:58:06,313
All they do is Bitcoin.

745
00:58:06,693 --> 00:58:08,893
You go from Lightning, the gift card in seconds.

746
00:58:08,953 --> 00:58:10,513
You can even log in with your Lightning.

747
00:58:11,113 --> 00:58:12,173
The Fold card.

748
00:58:13,133 --> 00:58:17,193
One of our community's favorite ways to stack sats while they pay bills.

749
00:58:17,193 --> 00:58:18,733
and all the other day-to-day stuff.

750
00:58:18,893 --> 00:58:19,633
Bold card!

751
00:58:20,352 --> 00:58:21,773
And of course, Salt Lending.

752
00:58:22,133 --> 00:58:23,813
Now, with margin call protection,

753
00:58:23,973 --> 00:58:25,453
which I'm going to be looking into,

754
00:58:25,693 --> 00:58:26,332
tell you what,

755
00:58:26,473 --> 00:58:29,313
Salt Lending lets you access the value of your Bitcoin

756
00:58:29,313 --> 00:58:30,613
without having to sell it.

757
00:58:30,873 --> 00:58:32,633
And a great UI to manage everything.

758
00:58:33,013 --> 00:58:34,513
You can make payments with ACH

759
00:58:34,513 --> 00:58:36,953
or your stablecoins if you want.

760
00:58:37,332 --> 00:58:38,953
So all links are in the show notes.

761
00:58:39,033 --> 00:58:41,352
You can support the show by using one of those.

762
00:58:41,413 --> 00:58:42,933
Just doing what you do.

763
00:58:43,593 --> 00:58:45,593
And of course, I will see you next time.

764
00:58:45,593 --> 00:58:50,393
You can go to thisweekinbitcoin.show for the links this week and everything I talked about.

765
00:58:50,873 --> 00:58:52,893
Again, that's thisweekinbitcoin.show.

766
00:58:52,993 --> 00:58:56,873
And while you're over there, you can always check out the other Jupyter Broadcasting shows.

767
00:58:56,953 --> 00:58:57,513
You never know.

768
00:58:58,332 --> 00:59:02,753
If you like self-hosted topics and open source, go check out Linux Unplugged.

769
00:59:03,013 --> 00:59:05,733
And if you want to see the wild side, go check out the launch.

770
00:59:06,293 --> 00:59:07,993
Thanks for being here on This Week in Bitcoin.

771
00:59:08,873 --> 00:59:10,352
And I'll see you next time.

772
00:59:15,593 --> 00:59:45,573
Thank you.

773
00:59:45,593 --> 01:00:15,573
Thank you.

774
01:00:15,593 --> 01:00:45,573
Thank you.