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Welcome in to This Week in Bitcoin, episode 68.

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My name is Chris, chrislas.com, jupiterbroadcasting.com.

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One of the projects that's been coming up on the show a lot is AlbiHub.

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You'll hear the name Albi and the Albi extension tossed around.

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So this week, I wanted to create an episode that is dedicated to this topic.

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Actually, really, I'm just super passionate about this topic.

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And I think it should be approachable to everyone.

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So hopefully, even if you're brand new to AlbiHub and brand new to Lightning,

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or if you're an existing power user, you'll find this informative.

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So let me know how I did with a boost.

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And if you are inspired to set up AlbiHub after this episode, you got to let me know too.

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Boris, welcome to the show.

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And I was going to introduce you as the co-founder of Albi,

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but I'm not actually quite sure if that's the correct title or introduction for you.

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Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris.

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Co-founder is right.

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That's true.

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Even though now we have a lot of people working at Albi and also a big community.

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But me and two others, Michael, Bumi on the internet and Rene basically initiated the project Albi.

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And you've been, before Albi, were you just passionate about the Lightning Network in general?

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Yes, that basically sums it up.

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And also that's how I got to Albi.

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I was working for a small venture capital fund that primarily invested in Bitcoin Lightning companies.

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did some research for them about interesting projects in the space.

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And that's how I also came across Albi back then

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when it was still a pure open source project, basically.

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So there's...

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Yeah, it's for me, it's all about like,

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how can we use Bitcoin and the Lightning network

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is a great technology for Bitcoin payments.

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I feel like one of the ways we see that with Lightning in general

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is both with Nostra Zaps and Podcast Boost,

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really kind of, to me, show where the future of Lightning Network could go.

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Do you think there's some real potential there?

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I mean, the Zaps alone seem like they have been...

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Albi has really moved quick to support that,

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to be a real key part of that Nostra ecosystem.

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And I think Zaps are a huge part of it.

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Yes, I think about Zaps, what makes it so interesting,

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it's really like is that it cannot be done easily with other technologies that we know

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especially not on other like closed social media platforms so steps are basically

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like small payments between users of of nostril applications which are mostly today like yeah

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typical social media applications where you have profile where you have news feeds you can post

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stuff and now you can also set someone meaning you can pay someone and the great thing about

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about these saps is that people do not need to be all in one or all in the same app they can be on

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on different apps and saps are basically this this the standard across all these social media apps

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on the nostril protocol to pay each other right and and podcasting is similar you have a very

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diverse ecosystem of applications, but one common language when it comes to payments,

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which is Bitcoin and the Lightning Network. And that's why both are great use cases for Bitcoin.

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And they are not replicable or hardly replicable with fiat payments.

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I'm glad you brought up podcasting because I recently was doing some experimenting with the

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show and enabled LN address. So I put an LN address in my value split instead of my note address.

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And I think this is probably the way things are going to go just because LN address has such

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universal support amongst the Lightning ecosystem. However, what I discovered is as a podcasting

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ecosystem, we haven't really come to agreements on how to handle this. And so I was able to receive

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sats to my Albi hub, but I did not receive any of the metadata, like the name or the message

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from what I can tell. And so it's like it partially works, which is a huge step.

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But I don't think as a community, we found a consensus on how to handle the metadata aspect

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since LN address itself doesn't handle that like Keysend did. I know this is pretty abstract,

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but just kind of getting into use cases here. Do you have thoughts about maybe how Albi could help

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the community come to a standard or consensus?

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Or do you even have a personal preference of what that might be?

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No, I think at Albi, we do not have a personal preference.

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So we want to enable people to send and receive payments

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and also cater for podcasters.

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So that's why, for example, we particularly implemented Keysend Payments

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because that was the initial use case.

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Keysend came along before Zaps, right?

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So not to interrupt, sorry, but I think one of the great things about Zapps and Keysend that they share is a listener or a user can send a Zapp or a Keysend payment without the receiver having to generate an invoice, which is really powerful.

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Yeah.

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So actually, just so regarding Zapps, Zapps are also pure like payments based on the Lightning address.

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So it's moritz.getalbi.com.

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That's a Lightning address.

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every getalbi.com user gets such an albi lightning address for free and then i can pay to you just to

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for example chris at getalbi.com and seps work mostly based on these these lightning addresses

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whereas these value for value podcast payments started working or were like were specified

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around a key sent payment basically where you do not need to create an invoice and the idea was

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really to make sure to have this high throughput, low latency payments, because you just have

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one payment push out to the receiver through this key send payment, and you do not need to request

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something like a lightning invoice beforehand, which might cause some latency, especially

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when you do like these per second payments or per minute payments. I think that's why we settled

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or the podcasting 2.0 community back then settled on keys and payment.

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And now we see a little bit that the adoption from wallets is not that big

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of these keys and payments.

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And now the argumentation is a little bit okay because wallets do not support it.

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We have not so many users basically sending payments

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because they can only use a smaller number of these wallets.

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And that's why now there's some sort of a movement to shift to wallets that support Lightning addresses.

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That's definitely more wallets.

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Albi also does that.

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But then this, again, comes with downsides.

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And I think the community has not yet or hasn't thought through, okay, how can we keep all the benefits that we have specified with KeySend payments

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and now bring them over to these lightning address payments.

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And I'm also a little bit afraid that like it also,

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a lot of podcasters are a little bit like lost out,

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a bit confused about the differences and such.

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So maybe like, yeah,

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I think there needs to be some more communication around that

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and like, yeah, agreement on how to move forward.

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Yeah.

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Although to your point,

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Zaps have solved this while still using Lightning addresses. And one has to wonder if podcasting 2.0

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were to start today, would they just use Zaps? Because I don't think LN address was really a

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thing when podcasting 2.0 started out. Zaps weren't a thing. And Noster did not exist when

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podcasting 2.0 started. And there is a certain network effect that Noster and Zaps create.

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And it would maybe just behoove podcasting 2.0 to just ride that wave. And I know initially there

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was resistance to that. But with the sort of collective acknowledgement now that Keysend is

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not really gaining much adoption outside of a few venerable podcasting 2.0 apps,

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I think there might be wider discussion for using something more like Zaps. And for the end user,

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in a podcasting 2.0 app, they wouldn't have to be a Nostre user. They wouldn't have to be aware

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that the backend is using Nostre to relay metadata. And then the podcasting community

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could just take advantage of the work being done on Noster for Zaps

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and ride that wave as it evolves.

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Does that seem reasonable to you?

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That's definitely one possible path.

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I think the risk with this approach is that it's quite a change

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to the overall specification.

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And at Ivy, we are also really heavily building on open standards

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and also initiated standards or initiated, let's say,

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protocols that became standards.

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And one learning there is like keeping these protocol

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specification as small as possible The smaller they are the more likely they are adopted that a good point and now if now if if you try to yeah fit everything in into that it tricky but i think it doable

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definitely i think but it's just like there needs to be more communication someone needs to

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take the lead there and moderate through the changes and educate people honestly

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or I think it's one of these things where most developers,

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they just want a really simple HTTPS API they can call and write to.

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And if they can get that and there's some clear documentation on it,

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they'll implement it in their app, right?

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But much beyond that, and it's a pretty big ask.

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So let's shift gears and talk about AlbiHub

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because this is just to set the context.

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I've been following open source and free software on a daily basis

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for 22, 23, 24 years now.

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And in my head, I have a collection

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of really amazing free software projects

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that I just can't believe they're open source.

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And AlbiHub has now joined this list.

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I mean, it's really remarkable

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what AlbiHub offers and is capable of

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and can be just ran for free

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on people's own infrastructure.

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Of course, you also have the AlbiHub cloud,

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which we can talk about in a little bit.

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But I thought maybe let's step back

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because I've really only talked about AlbiHub once in depth on the show

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when it first came out.

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So could you give me just the elevator pitch for the listeners that are not familiar?

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What is AlbiHub?

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Yeah, sure.

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So, yeah, in short, AlbiHub is your easy-to-use, self-custodial Bitcoin Lightning wallet.

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So you are in control of your keys,

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and you can send Bitcoin payments across the globe, basically.

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And it's, I mean, and for the audience that, you know, is aware of Lightning,

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It's also a very easy-to-use Lightning node, and you can participate in the Lightning network, and they give you tools to manage your channels and your identity in the Lightning ecosystem.

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I mean, it takes something that when I first started playing around with Lightning a few years ago, it took me four or five days to get my Lightning node actually sending and receiving transactions.

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And AlbiHub kind of compresses that down into like 25 minutes.

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it's really remarkable.

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And just recently, 1.18.5 shipped.

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And I know this is packed with features in here,

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but it's something really special

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because there's a few features in here

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that are huge for my workflow.

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And one of them is the improvements

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that you have been consistently making with subwallets.

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Can you talk a little bit about what's new with subwallets?

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And maybe even we should start with what they are.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. So that's actually also one feature that we built for the podcasting use case in mind,

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because at least when we started with Albi Hub, or we just also released it one year ago. So it's

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actually not that old, but I think we made huge progress until today. But yeah, back then it was

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not like super, super straightforward. You need to be a little bit interested in Lightning to

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understand the details and one big task is always there like open a payment channel and over time

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we automated that but yeah it still might not be very intuitive for some of for some of the users

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so the idea then was okay why can't you not share your alb hub so you are maybe more like experienced

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lightning user experience podcaster in in the value for value space with sub wallets you can

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basically share your existing albi hub with a newcomer in the space and basically onboard them

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to value for value at zero cost and like basically instantly and they don't need to know any details

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about lightning but when they want to run their own albi hub in the future they can do that anytime

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and migrate over.

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But that's really one use case.

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So it's basically sharing with family, friends,

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and other like colleagues your Albi hub.

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And with these, you get a Lightning address

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and the keys and credentials that you can put

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in the RSS feed.

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So you can also receive value for value payments

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with subwallets.

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So far, we've seen that's the major use case.

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Another use case is, for example,

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when you have a business

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and you want to separate

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incoming funds a bit better

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for different purposes like

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private, you want to have a private wallet,

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you want to have a business wallet,

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then you can also use the sub wallets

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for example. That's

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an example we use here at Jupiter Broadcasting

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is exactly that kind

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of separation for the business but then

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also the co-hosts that

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they love the idea of the boost

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and totally in on value for value

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but do not have the time, capacity, or means to run their own Lightning node, sub-wallet.

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Boom.

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Works great for that.

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Also kids, you know, spouses that need to participate in Lightning but don't want to

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manage a set, you don't want to run a second node for them.

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And the great thing is, you know, I have the channels, I manage the liquidity, and they

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just get to take advantage of it.

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They don't have to worry about any of that.

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So that's fantastic.

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Something that's also recently landed that I am really excited about, and I'm wondering

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if you can speak to it, is there's now some channel rebalancing capabilities in there.

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I think it's in beta.

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There's a few other things now like swapping.

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There's more features that are kind of coming to managing the liquidity of the node.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So talking about swaps, because I'm personally very excited about them.

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I think that's also how we approach it.

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It's quite innovative in the space because so far there were swap servers, but there

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where always like you have to go on a website and use this website.

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And it feels always a little bit like disconnected.

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And now you have these swaps directly within AlbiHub.

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And it feels like they're super smooth when you do these swaps.

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And what you basically do is you send between an on-chain wallet

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and your Lightning spending balance and back and forth.

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That's called a swap, right?

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And what we did, basically two things is we added them directly into AlbiHub so you don't have to leave.

231
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Any application can stay there and you can do one-time swaps back and forth.

232
00:16:16,558 --> 00:16:17,258
And that's interesting.

233
00:16:17,418 --> 00:16:25,317
For example, if you want to top up your spending balance, if you want to spend more or if you want to empty your existing lightning channel,

234
00:16:25,378 --> 00:16:28,457
this is necessary often when you have a lot of payments incoming.

235
00:16:28,457 --> 00:16:37,238
So if you're a successful value for value podcaster, you receive a lot of payment just in one direction, right, from your audience.

236
00:16:37,658 --> 00:16:40,938
And at some point, the payment channel is full.

237
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And instead of opening a new payment channel, you can just swap all funds into your on-chain, basically savings balance and keep the stats there.

238
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But keep also receiving from people over the Lightning Network.

239
00:16:54,697 --> 00:17:00,697
You can do that now once with one-time swaps, but we also added this feature of auto swaps.

240
00:17:01,538 --> 00:17:11,418
So you can define a threshold that say, okay, once I receive $1,000 in Bitcoin, please send them to my Bitcoin on-chain wallet.

241
00:17:11,858 --> 00:17:20,618
This can be in AlbiHub, but this can also be, for example, your cold storage, ultra secure Bitcoin hardware wallet.

242
00:17:20,618 --> 00:17:25,358
So it's totally up to the user where they want to receive these sets.

243
00:17:25,598 --> 00:17:27,297
So that's the swapping feature.

244
00:17:27,418 --> 00:17:32,398
And I think that's a great tool, especially for podcasters that have one-way payments often.

245
00:17:33,098 --> 00:17:33,258
Yes.

246
00:17:33,498 --> 00:17:39,038
I remember when I was one of the early beta testers and I was like, I really want this feature.

247
00:17:39,477 --> 00:17:42,297
And I remember being told, it'll happen, it'll happen.

248
00:17:42,557 --> 00:17:44,638
So it's really great to see it land.

249
00:17:44,638 --> 00:17:55,658
And something else that I think you guys are a little early on, and I hope to see wider adoption, especially in the podcasting 2.0 community, is Bolt 12.

250
00:17:56,898 --> 00:18:00,737
Where does this play a role, and what is this going to bring AlbiHub users?

251
00:18:02,237 --> 00:18:07,158
So we approach features basically really from the use case.

252
00:18:07,158 --> 00:18:09,278
Of course, we are like technology enthusiasts.

253
00:18:09,638 --> 00:18:11,057
That's why we are Bitcoin, right?

254
00:18:11,057 --> 00:18:20,178
But regarding Bolt 12, we saw some users using a special application out there, which is Bitcoin mining service.

255
00:18:20,578 --> 00:18:25,638
And there are customers there to receive these mining rewards.

256
00:18:26,018 --> 00:18:28,877
They need to run a Bolt 12 enabled wallet.

257
00:18:29,477 --> 00:18:33,138
And that's why we added this feature to AlbiHub.

258
00:18:34,318 --> 00:18:38,918
And yeah, it's basically an improved Bolt 11 standard.

259
00:18:38,918 --> 00:18:42,898
and Bolt 11 is the typical Lightning address

260
00:18:42,898 --> 00:18:46,438
that we see day in, day out, basically, today.

261
00:18:46,598 --> 00:18:49,098
So it allows for more privacy

262
00:18:49,098 --> 00:18:51,678
and comes with additional features

263
00:18:51,678 --> 00:18:53,078
which are really interesting.

264
00:18:53,977 --> 00:18:56,158
And with the implementation of Bolt 12,

265
00:18:56,237 --> 00:18:58,158
we basically also did the first step

266
00:18:58,158 --> 00:18:59,558
into this direction, too.

267
00:19:00,078 --> 00:19:00,558
That's exciting.

268
00:19:00,697 --> 00:19:04,418
I'll also note that Bolt 12 natively supports

269
00:19:04,418 --> 00:19:06,518
including a message with a payment.

270
00:19:06,877 --> 00:19:08,518
Interesting, it has support for metadata.

271
00:19:08,918 --> 00:19:15,618
So yeah, could become another podcasting 2.0 spec in the future.

272
00:19:15,618 --> 00:19:16,118
Perhaps.

273
00:19:17,118 --> 00:19:20,038
Okay, so one last thing about AlbiHub, and of course you could bring up anything,

274
00:19:20,538 --> 00:19:23,737
but one of the things I've been enjoying is sort of consistent updates

275
00:19:23,737 --> 00:19:26,018
to what you're calling the App Store,

276
00:19:26,358 --> 00:19:41,775
and it for me kind of the way to discover apps in the Lightning ecosystem Where do you see this app store going over the future of AlbiHub Yeah so there are actually quite some interesting possibilities where we can develop it too

277
00:19:41,875 --> 00:19:47,095
And it would be interesting also to learn a little bit from our users what they think about it

278
00:19:47,095 --> 00:19:50,195
and if they see any problems that we can solve for them.

279
00:19:50,975 --> 00:19:53,455
So in every AlbiHub, there's an app store.

280
00:19:53,455 --> 00:19:57,795
and these apps work particularly well with an Albi Hub

281
00:19:57,795 --> 00:20:00,935
because you can directly connect them to your hub.

282
00:20:01,535 --> 00:20:04,875
So this means you can then pay within these apps

283
00:20:04,875 --> 00:20:08,475
and you do not have to open the Albi Browser Extension

284
00:20:08,475 --> 00:20:09,955
or the Albi Hub itself.

285
00:20:09,955 --> 00:20:11,635
You enjoy native payments,

286
00:20:11,875 --> 00:20:13,555
but directly out of your actual wallet

287
00:20:13,555 --> 00:20:14,735
because you connected it.

288
00:20:15,475 --> 00:20:18,375
So you will find then apps like the Browser Extension

289
00:20:18,375 --> 00:20:21,495
in this app store, the Albi Go mobile wallet

290
00:20:21,495 --> 00:20:22,875
you find in these app stores.

291
00:20:23,455 --> 00:20:33,715
And a bunch of other very, very interesting ones, such as SEP Planner, for example, that lets you schedule recurring payment to your favorite creator.

292
00:20:33,915 --> 00:20:37,255
So let's say, okay, I love Chris Podcast so much.

293
00:20:37,255 --> 00:20:41,515
I want to send him once a week 5,000 sats, for example.

294
00:20:41,635 --> 00:20:45,055
Then I can do that with SEP Planner, for example.

295
00:20:45,795 --> 00:20:46,835
So that's a cool app.

296
00:20:46,915 --> 00:20:48,135
And there are a bunch of other apps.

297
00:20:48,135 --> 00:20:57,435
And what we, for example, recently added our apps, these AI coding agents from Goose and Claude.

298
00:20:57,915 --> 00:21:03,255
So you can also now connect your Albi Hub wallet to an AI agent.

299
00:21:03,995 --> 00:21:07,935
And there will probably be a bunch of others like ChatGPT in the future.

300
00:21:08,255 --> 00:21:12,275
And yeah, interact with your wallet in a natural language.

301
00:21:13,275 --> 00:21:14,835
And yeah, that's also a little bit okay.

302
00:21:14,835 --> 00:21:22,735
we test things there see how users adopt it do we really like do we hit an interesting use case

303
00:21:22,735 --> 00:21:30,815
is it sticky and and that's how we yeah want to make basically lightning payments bitcoin payments

304
00:21:30,815 --> 00:21:38,715
more interesting and see if we can help solve a problem for our users by yeah shipping new apps

305
00:21:38,715 --> 00:21:43,555
within this app store sure what i what i think is also maybe missed for people that aren't albi

306
00:21:43,555 --> 00:21:48,955
Hub users is it's also a Lightning identity management system. So when I connect to these

307
00:21:48,955 --> 00:21:54,335
applications, I can manage my identity essentially, which is really powerful because it means one

308
00:21:54,335 --> 00:21:59,735
online public key identity that goes across applications and then my self-hosted wallet

309
00:21:59,735 --> 00:22:05,655
can also be brought across those applications. I have one other thing on AlbiHub I want to get to

310
00:22:05,655 --> 00:22:11,795
before we kind of expand out. And that is I saw kind of a tease in there about a virtual bank

311
00:22:11,795 --> 00:22:20,215
account feature coming to albihub what is going on here yes that's true so we are currently

312
00:22:20,215 --> 00:22:30,215
researching how we can basically improve the or make it more seamless going from fiat money to

313
00:22:30,215 --> 00:22:36,575
bitcoin and and back and because we still see when we talk to our users that's often a problem that's

314
00:22:36,575 --> 00:22:43,475
not so straightforward to get their first bitcoin get them into a wallet and then send them out but

315
00:22:43,475 --> 00:22:49,595
also vice versa if you receive a lot of bitcoin what do you do with that me personally as a

316
00:22:49,595 --> 00:22:55,855
bitcoiner there's plenty to do but you also often have cost denominated in us dollar so you want to

317
00:22:55,855 --> 00:23:03,855
basically convert them and i'm adding a fiat account to to to albi or a us dollar account

318
00:23:03,855 --> 00:23:10,635
can help because then you don't need to use any other application you can do that all directly

319
00:23:10,635 --> 00:23:16,515
within albi hub that's the idea here and there we are basically researching different use cases like

320
00:23:16,515 --> 00:23:21,415
there's a bunch of things that can enable that like exchanges bill payments and such

321
00:23:21,415 --> 00:23:26,475
which is super interesting oh no kidding yeah no kidding oh man that is really interesting

322
00:23:26,475 --> 00:23:31,635
so i want to talk just for a moment about well i guess i have a follow-up question to that

323
00:23:31,635 --> 00:23:36,895
is there a rough timeline on that sounds like it's kind of research phase right now

324
00:23:36,895 --> 00:23:43,615
there is no no no timeline so it is high priority on our roadmap okay um and we hope that we can

325
00:23:43,615 --> 00:23:51,955
show already something within the next month but it's not not so concrete yet okay so let's talk

326
00:23:51,955 --> 00:23:57,595
about albi go albi go is a mobile application that is really easy to connect to your albi hub

327
00:23:57,595 --> 00:24:02,815
and I feel like it is an essential companion

328
00:24:02,815 --> 00:24:04,615
when you're using the sub-wallets feature.

329
00:24:05,435 --> 00:24:07,755
And I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit

330
00:24:07,755 --> 00:24:10,335
about where AlbiGo is headed.

331
00:24:10,495 --> 00:24:12,955
Is it kind of feature complete in your eyes

332
00:24:12,955 --> 00:24:14,755
or are there other directions

333
00:24:14,755 --> 00:24:16,975
or other things you're considering for future features?

334
00:24:18,175 --> 00:24:21,655
So for now, actually, I think AlbiGo reached a quite good state.

335
00:24:21,775 --> 00:24:23,575
So it's stable, it's super easy to use,

336
00:24:23,615 --> 00:24:24,715
and that's what we wanted.

337
00:24:24,715 --> 00:24:31,315
sort of completes a little bit also the albi product ecosystem right so we have the albi hub

338
00:24:31,315 --> 00:24:35,655
which is your self-custodial lightning wallet which is sort of in the center we have the browser

339
00:24:35,655 --> 00:24:42,055
extension for all things when you use the internet and the browser you can do you can connect the

340
00:24:42,055 --> 00:24:48,595
browser extension and pay then directly in the browser and if you are on the go outside also and

341
00:24:48,595 --> 00:24:54,235
want to use bitcoin payments then you have albi go which is also then powered by your albi hub

342
00:24:54,235 --> 00:24:59,975
and with that we are actually quite well i think set up and and we also want particularly say here

343
00:24:59,975 --> 00:25:06,275
okay let's keep things that are a bit more complicated within albihub and but payments

344
00:25:06,275 --> 00:25:13,455
need to be seamless so payments need to be quick simple and that's why you see also mainly two big

345
00:25:13,455 --> 00:25:19,235
buttons a big receive and a big send button in albigo and and that's mostly it right i think it's

346
00:25:19,235 --> 00:25:20,335
Brilliant. That's brilliant.

347
00:25:20,695 --> 00:25:23,435
Yeah. And for now, I think we're also quite good.

348
00:25:23,595 --> 00:25:26,535
We have, but still quite some ideas how we can expand that,

349
00:25:26,615 --> 00:25:29,235
but it's not so much of a priority right now.

350
00:25:29,575 --> 00:25:32,595
You know, when I look at AlbiGo, what I think is fantastic

351
00:25:32,595 --> 00:25:34,655
is that as far as a mobile app,

352
00:25:35,235 --> 00:25:38,355
it's not doing the heavy lift of the Lightning transactions.

353
00:25:38,575 --> 00:25:40,155
It's communicating with your AlbiHub,

354
00:25:40,295 --> 00:25:42,475
and your AlbiHub is doing all of that lift.

355
00:25:42,935 --> 00:25:44,755
So it means the mobile app doesn't say,

356
00:25:44,935 --> 00:25:47,035
there's other great apps out there that do mobile Lightning,

357
00:25:47,035 --> 00:25:49,515
but they do a lot of the implementation in the app,

358
00:25:49,555 --> 00:25:51,375
and that makes them very complicated and very heavy.

359
00:25:51,975 --> 00:25:54,855
Where AlbiGo is you just want to do Lightning payments,

360
00:25:54,995 --> 00:25:58,255
and you want to take advantage of the balance on your AlbiHub and its channels.

361
00:25:58,675 --> 00:26:02,315
And it also means that people that are not interested in learning Lightning

362
00:26:02,315 --> 00:26:04,955
can just use AlbiGo with their sub-wallet.

363
00:26:05,775 --> 00:26:10,195
But when you think about it, it's taking advantage of the AlbiHub,

364
00:26:10,295 --> 00:26:11,695
its liquidity, its identity.

365
00:26:11,915 --> 00:26:15,155
That itself is almost a platform you could build other mobile apps on

366
00:26:15,155 --> 00:26:20,815
do other features. Is there any talk about other future apps from Albi beyond JustGo that would

367
00:26:20,815 --> 00:26:27,095
be for mobile devices specifically? Yeah, maybe not really for, or could also be for mobile devices,

368
00:26:27,295 --> 00:26:33,495
who knows. But like one product that we launched recently, a bit more, still a bit more developer

369
00:26:33,495 --> 00:26:42,935
focused is a own MCP server. Yeah. That allows you basically to connect your Albi hub to AI

370
00:26:42,935 --> 00:26:51,015
agents and to all ai agents basically out there that support this this model context protocol

371
00:26:51,015 --> 00:26:58,275
basically which is sort of like the usbc if you want that so for for apis to talk with agents

372
00:26:58,275 --> 00:27:03,815
basically and now you can connect that with an agent so you have on and that's again like

373
00:27:03,815 --> 00:27:09,935
the similar idea that we have with the browser extension or with albgo so you have basically

374
00:27:09,935 --> 00:27:17,295
you can see them as a remote control for an albi hub the browser extension for the browser albi go

375
00:27:17,295 --> 00:27:24,255
if you're out or you want to pay out of your pocket and for if you use chat gpt and such and

376
00:27:24,255 --> 00:27:30,415
you want to send a payment right from there then you can use the albi bitcoin payments mcp server

377
00:27:30,415 --> 00:27:37,315
so that's again a way where we can build products where the new product itself is not so complicated

378
00:27:37,315 --> 00:27:39,655
because we can basically outsource that

379
00:27:39,655 --> 00:27:41,635
or keep that outsourced to Albi Hub,

380
00:27:42,015 --> 00:27:43,435
but we can then iterate quickly

381
00:27:43,435 --> 00:27:46,175
and make them better for our users.

382
00:27:47,175 --> 00:27:48,115
So Moritz, I've noticed,

383
00:27:48,295 --> 00:27:49,775
and I wonder if you agree with this first statement,

384
00:27:50,075 --> 00:27:53,315
it seems like there's been waves of use cases

385
00:27:53,315 --> 00:27:56,535
that have brought batches of new users to Lightning.

386
00:27:57,455 --> 00:27:59,315
Podcasting, 2.0 has done that.

387
00:27:59,535 --> 00:28:00,755
Obviously, Noster has.

388
00:28:01,155 --> 00:28:03,835
There's been these moments where new users show up

389
00:28:03,835 --> 00:28:06,035
and they need these support and services.

390
00:28:06,815 --> 00:28:09,995
Do you kind of agree that it seems like adoption sort of comes in waves like that?

391
00:28:10,155 --> 00:28:11,535
Or do you see something else?

392
00:28:11,555 --> 00:28:12,915
Do you see just a continuous trickle?

393
00:28:13,855 --> 00:28:16,275
There is definitely continuous trickle.

394
00:28:16,735 --> 00:28:27,695
Yeah, because that comes from, let's say, very traditional use cases like commerce, peer-to-peer payments or remittance payments.

395
00:28:27,855 --> 00:28:32,015
So these are things that have been there since the internet.

396
00:28:32,015 --> 00:28:40,615
and now just people see okay um using bitcoin lightning payments actually i can save a lot of

397
00:28:40,615 --> 00:28:48,855
costs comparing to to western union so these are use cases that are the market is growing every year

398
00:28:48,855 --> 00:28:55,795
interesting and but then there are these let's say like sort of like unique use cases that you

399
00:28:55,795 --> 00:29:03,175
actually mentioned like podcasting, for example, steps that haven't been there before, but now

400
00:29:03,175 --> 00:29:09,355
are sort of enabled by this technology together with some leaders in the space that come together

401
00:29:09,355 --> 00:29:27,573
and define a new standard build great product out of it So I think it a little bit both basically Do you suspect or hope or are you seeing that AI and AI agents could be another wave of use cases for Lightning I guess I not

402
00:29:27,573 --> 00:29:32,353
as convinced, especially with the rise of stablecoins in the US. I think they're going to go

403
00:29:32,353 --> 00:29:38,233
more in that direction for AI payments and things like that than they will Lightning. Do you disagree

404
00:29:38,233 --> 00:29:38,573
with that?

405
00:29:39,873 --> 00:29:41,393
No, not necessarily.

406
00:29:41,713 --> 00:29:43,193
I think, but I think

407
00:29:43,193 --> 00:29:45,533
we will see

408
00:29:45,533 --> 00:29:47,973
quicker and better adoption of

409
00:29:47,973 --> 00:29:50,053
agents using Bitcoin payments than we see

410
00:29:50,053 --> 00:29:51,093
with humans, I think.

411
00:29:52,033 --> 00:29:53,833
Because the environment

412
00:29:53,833 --> 00:29:55,533
is more

413
00:29:55,533 --> 00:29:58,373
made for that, right? So it's

414
00:29:58,373 --> 00:29:59,273
purely digital.

415
00:30:00,413 --> 00:30:02,073
It's also more

416
00:30:02,073 --> 00:30:04,013
anonymous, so you don't know

417
00:30:04,013 --> 00:30:06,033
each other. There's less trust

418
00:30:06,033 --> 00:30:08,053
involved, so you actually want to

419
00:30:08,053 --> 00:30:15,153
do often more like a micropayment first to test the service from an agent you don't know where

420
00:30:15,153 --> 00:30:21,473
this agent is located so you want to have sort of sort of meta payment payment technology with

421
00:30:21,473 --> 00:30:30,073
bitcoin and also i think what often stops maybe the the adoption today is that so humans think

422
00:30:30,073 --> 00:30:35,193
are very rational when it comes to payments and there might also be this micropayment bias where

423
00:30:35,193 --> 00:30:39,893
I say, okay, I don't want to, I again have to think about the payments, so I better don't pay.

424
00:30:40,913 --> 00:30:44,513
I think agents are not thinking, are very rational.

425
00:30:45,433 --> 00:30:48,313
So they need a service, they pay for it.

426
00:30:48,313 --> 00:30:56,833
So that's why I think we see a better adoption there in the agent space compared to the, like, yeah, from humans.

427
00:30:57,453 --> 00:31:00,553
But what exactly, we have to find out, yeah.

428
00:31:00,673 --> 00:31:02,933
And that's also where we do a lot of research at Albi.

429
00:31:02,933 --> 00:31:07,413
build showcases and see what sticks,

430
00:31:07,773 --> 00:31:09,593
where do we find something that we,

431
00:31:10,453 --> 00:31:13,793
like a problem that we can actually solve for users.

432
00:31:15,253 --> 00:31:18,813
And that's very much on our to-do list

433
00:31:18,813 --> 00:31:21,313
also the next month and yeah, to be found out.

434
00:31:21,493 --> 00:31:22,853
So that's why I'm super curious

435
00:31:22,853 --> 00:31:24,353
if anybody has an idea there,

436
00:31:24,973 --> 00:31:26,393
what we can build.

437
00:31:26,393 --> 00:31:27,633
Let's do that together.

438
00:31:28,133 --> 00:31:29,693
We're constantly looking for partners

439
00:31:29,693 --> 00:31:31,313
also to create some showcases

440
00:31:31,313 --> 00:31:34,193
and see how things work.

441
00:31:34,573 --> 00:31:35,133
Sure.

442
00:31:35,413 --> 00:31:39,453
It seems to me that Lightning does have a payments advantage in this space

443
00:31:39,453 --> 00:31:41,613
in the sense that, like you said,

444
00:31:42,193 --> 00:31:45,773
you could do very safe sort of semi-anonymous transactions

445
00:31:45,773 --> 00:31:51,873
or you could tie it to an identity that isn't arduous in KYC like NosterPub.

446
00:31:51,873 --> 00:31:54,573
There is, I think, something more to,

447
00:31:55,073 --> 00:31:57,433
even if it's just a technology implementation on the back end,

448
00:31:57,493 --> 00:32:01,013
there's something more to Lightning payments tied to NosterPub identities.

449
00:32:01,313 --> 00:32:05,733
because it's not mandatory, but you could do it.

450
00:32:05,873 --> 00:32:08,013
And so you could have something that's tied to you,

451
00:32:08,073 --> 00:32:09,573
or you could have something that's semi-anonymous.

452
00:32:10,233 --> 00:32:13,013
And just that space in general, Moritz, I feel like has a lot of potential,

453
00:32:13,213 --> 00:32:15,413
is NPUBs connected to payments.

454
00:32:15,553 --> 00:32:17,593
I mean, you think about it in just the podcasting space,

455
00:32:18,233 --> 00:32:19,673
with Fountain and their implementation,

456
00:32:20,213 --> 00:32:22,193
when somebody boosts the show who's a Fountain user,

457
00:32:22,313 --> 00:32:23,653
that's tied to a Nostra identity,

458
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:26,713
and now I'm starting to follow more people on Nostra who boost the show.

459
00:32:27,593 --> 00:32:29,813
Yeah, I think Fountain did a great job there,

460
00:32:29,813 --> 00:32:33,633
combining the benefits of Noster with Lightning.

461
00:32:33,933 --> 00:32:36,813
I think it's a great tool also for audience discovery.

462
00:32:37,933 --> 00:32:39,573
Good job what they've done there.

463
00:32:40,173 --> 00:32:44,033
So as we wrap up, I noticed because unfortunately,

464
00:32:44,493 --> 00:32:47,313
I think I double booked you and made you leave a little early,

465
00:32:47,313 --> 00:32:51,853
but every second Thursday, there is an Albi community call.

466
00:32:51,993 --> 00:32:53,773
What's going on here and how do people participate?

467
00:32:55,133 --> 00:32:57,453
It's super easy to participate actually.

468
00:32:57,453 --> 00:33:02,313
So you find the link on, I think it's karl.com slash getalbi.

469
00:33:02,753 --> 00:33:05,033
And there you find different calls.

470
00:33:05,173 --> 00:33:06,813
And one of them is the community call.

471
00:33:06,973 --> 00:33:11,593
It happens, as you say, every second Thursday at 3 p.m. UTC.

472
00:33:12,333 --> 00:33:12,573
Yeah.

473
00:33:12,633 --> 00:33:16,413
And the idea is that we invite interesting projects from the ecosystem.

474
00:33:17,233 --> 00:33:20,573
Obviously, they mostly use Bitcoin Lightning payments.

475
00:33:20,873 --> 00:33:22,373
And they pitch ideas.

476
00:33:22,593 --> 00:33:25,713
They pitch projects or they even pitch their companies,

477
00:33:25,713 --> 00:33:27,173
whatever they're working on.

478
00:33:27,453 --> 00:33:28,573
And they get feedback.

479
00:33:28,893 --> 00:33:32,973
They get feedback from the audience that also participates in the call.

480
00:33:33,753 --> 00:33:40,253
And also the audience can ask questions, can learn from builders, can learn from founders.

481
00:33:40,973 --> 00:33:43,733
So there is quite some knowledge exchange.

482
00:33:43,733 --> 00:33:47,853
And it's always super, super interesting to get to know interesting projects.

483
00:33:48,673 --> 00:33:53,453
And really, everybody is invited and can join.

484
00:33:53,453 --> 00:33:58,513
Yeah, I saw it's often also co-streamed on zap.stream, which is neat.

485
00:33:58,753 --> 00:33:58,993
Right.

486
00:33:59,353 --> 00:34:00,973
So you can participate that way.

487
00:34:01,633 --> 00:34:09,553
Yeah, for example, Sam from Truefans has been there one or two times presenting updates of their platform.

488
00:34:09,893 --> 00:34:15,893
So really, the scope is quite open and you can talk about whatever you want.

489
00:34:16,393 --> 00:34:18,133
And yeah, people get feedback.

490
00:34:18,693 --> 00:34:19,833
People can ask questions.

491
00:34:20,673 --> 00:34:23,533
Yeah, and I saw a couple of great apps demoed today

492
00:34:23,533 --> 00:34:25,373
that work with AlbiHub.

493
00:34:25,473 --> 00:34:25,973
That was fun.

494
00:34:26,993 --> 00:34:29,393
Yeah, I think it's super important to come together

495
00:34:29,393 --> 00:34:33,013
and work also together, right,

496
00:34:33,253 --> 00:34:37,913
to make things, like, especially to work in the open,

497
00:34:37,913 --> 00:34:40,353
but really make things product-grade

498
00:34:40,353 --> 00:34:43,593
so that people can use it on a daily basis,

499
00:34:44,013 --> 00:34:47,153
and not only today, but also in one year or in three years.

500
00:34:48,313 --> 00:34:48,433
Yeah.

501
00:34:48,433 --> 00:34:55,373
Yeah, and we didn't talk much about the AlbiHub Cloud product, but I've been using that since before it launched.

502
00:34:55,753 --> 00:34:58,913
And it's also a terrific way to use AlbiHub.

503
00:34:59,273 --> 00:35:06,053
And it makes it just, for me as a business, really simple to just have that, run that, and be able to trust that.

504
00:35:06,413 --> 00:35:08,953
So AlbiHub Cloud's been really fantastic too.

505
00:35:09,593 --> 00:35:15,953
And like what I said earlier, this is on my list of some of the projects I'm the most grateful and impressed that it's free

506
00:35:15,953 --> 00:35:18,193
and that I can just go download this thing and run it.

507
00:35:18,493 --> 00:35:19,853
It's like, how does this even work?

508
00:35:20,893 --> 00:35:22,613
So I'm just really grateful for everything you guys have done

509
00:35:22,613 --> 00:35:24,673
for the Lightning ecosystem, the Nostra ecosystem,

510
00:35:24,673 --> 00:35:28,493
and obviously the podcasting 2.0 ecosystem.

511
00:35:28,673 --> 00:35:30,973
So please, please pass that on to the team

512
00:35:30,973 --> 00:35:33,473
and let them know that a lot of gratitude.

513
00:35:33,473 --> 00:35:35,533
Thanks for using I'll Be Up, Chris.

514
00:35:35,653 --> 00:35:36,473
That's amazing.

515
00:35:37,173 --> 00:35:38,893
Now, is there anything we should have touched on

516
00:35:38,893 --> 00:35:40,293
before I hang up on you?

517
00:35:40,393 --> 00:35:42,313
Because I know there's a million things going on.

518
00:35:43,153 --> 00:35:43,993
Yeah, right there.

519
00:35:44,173 --> 00:35:45,733
True, there are a lot of things going on.

520
00:35:45,733 --> 00:35:52,153
know i'm like i've never been so excited uh on what like what what we are building at albi then

521
00:35:52,153 --> 00:35:59,173
like this time i think in the next six months we see quite some interesting additions maybe also

522
00:35:59,173 --> 00:36:06,673
major major changes again to albi up but definitely to to the positive better ux side of things so we

523
00:36:06,673 --> 00:36:12,813
are cooking quite some some some exciting stuff there but then now it's the perfect also time to

524
00:36:12,813 --> 00:36:18,573
get started, get familiar with these products. A lot to discover there.

525
00:36:18,933 --> 00:36:22,793
Indeed. Indeed. Moritz, thank you so much for joining me and for all the details. I appreciate

526
00:36:22,793 --> 00:36:33,973
your time. I believe that marks the first interview on This Week in Bitcoin. I'm not 100%

527
00:36:33,973 --> 00:36:38,893
sure because I do a million podcasts, but I'm pretty sure. So this is sort of a special episode,

528
00:36:38,893 --> 00:36:41,173
an out-of-cycle episode of This Week in Bitcoin.

529
00:36:41,373 --> 00:36:42,913
If you'd like to hear more of those,

530
00:36:43,273 --> 00:36:45,013
well, I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

531
00:36:45,193 --> 00:36:47,133
This is typically an all-news podcast,

532
00:36:47,413 --> 00:36:49,513
but Albie has been making a lot of news recently.

533
00:36:50,133 --> 00:36:51,793
I thought, why not go to the source?

534
00:36:52,313 --> 00:36:53,553
So, thank you so much for listening.

535
00:36:53,613 --> 00:36:54,953
You can find some links to some of the things

536
00:36:54,953 --> 00:36:57,493
we talked about today at thisweekinbitcoin.show.

537
00:36:57,573 --> 00:37:00,413
Go look for episode 68.

538
00:37:01,033 --> 00:37:02,673
And I will admit, this episode,

539
00:37:02,773 --> 00:37:04,513
I try to focus all on signal

540
00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:06,073
and not get distracted by emotions,

541
00:37:06,073 --> 00:37:08,833
but I'm just too damn excited about the future

542
00:37:08,833 --> 00:37:16,613
of Lightning, even Noster, and of course AlbiHub, and where podcasting 2.0 goes as the technology

543
00:37:16,613 --> 00:37:20,613
or the backend technology or the protocol, I'm not really even sure what to call it,

544
00:37:20,993 --> 00:37:24,673
that enables boost continues to evolve too. There's a lot, and we're going to be right here

545
00:37:24,673 --> 00:37:30,533
at the edge, on the frontier, as they say, following all of that. If you enjoyed this,

546
00:37:30,593 --> 00:37:34,333
let me know with a boost, or if you didn't, you could also vote that way, at least send a little

547
00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:41,853
sugar with that medicine. All right, back to the regular cycle. You should see another episode soon.

548
00:37:42,333 --> 00:37:47,913
So thank you so much for listening to this week's episode, or I guess, sub-week, mid-week episode?

549
00:37:49,353 --> 00:37:51,833
I don't know what to call it. I'll see you back here next time.

550
00:38:04,333 --> 00:38:34,313
Thank you.

551
00:38:34,333 --> 00:39:04,313
Thank you.