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I don't need half an emotion

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Lose the penny thin lesson, everything, it ain't enough

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It's gotta be new from the start, so

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Don't hand me a hand-me-down heart, no

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Don't hand me a hand-me-down heart

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Can you be the one I run home to

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Through the good and bad, nothing but the truth

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Have my share of hollow lies

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Oh, empty words, lying eyes

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Don't bring me a heart that's all used up

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Anything less than everything, it ain't enough

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It's gotta be new from the start, so

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Don't hand me, hand me down hard, no

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Don't hand me, hand me down hard

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Don't hand me, hand me down hard

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Don't help me, help me down hard

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It's now or never

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It's all or nothing

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It's now or never

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Yeah

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Don't bring me a heart that's all used up

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Anything less than everything, it ain't enough

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It's gotta be new from the start, so

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Don't help me, help me down hard, no

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Don't help me, help me down hard

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Don't help me, help me down hard

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Don't help me, help me down hard

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Don't end it, end it, hell me doubt hard

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Don't end it, doubt hard

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No Maybe

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Like

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Your

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Radio Detox is back with a very special guest, Joe Martin. Welcome, Joe. He probably needs no

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introduction. Thanks for having me, Heather. It's great to be on the show at last. At last. I know,

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like I've been meaning to interview you for like two years and then I finally met you in person

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in Nashville in October. You were doing this epic like U.S. tour. Do you want to kind of

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kick it off there with just, what did you spend like a month here to work on your latest album?

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Let's just orient people to the fact that this guy is a true rock star, amazing singer-songwriter,

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and just did this amazing US.

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I'll just let you explain everything you did here.

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Yeah, thanks.

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It's a good time to have me on because I've got this new album coming out.

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And it was a bit of a whirlwind trip going out to Nashville to record it.

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I was there for three weeks, I think, in total.

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It felt much quicker because every day was just so hectic.

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There was no time to waste.

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So yeah, in the studio, well, it was kind of spread out over two weeks, but it was like a total of eight days.

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And then in between, sorry, not in between, after the studio, went to Valentine, Texas to shoot all the artwork and the music videos, stuff like that.

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And then at the very end of the trip, squeezed in that Bitcoin Park session, which was a Nostra thing.

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I think it was a Nostra thing.

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Bitcoin and Nostra.

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But it was a lot of fun.

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Yeah, it was a songwriter round. It was Nashville Songwriter Rounds with you and Ainsley and of course, Bitcoiners, Bitcoin Park. You know, I think that it's really, there's such a disconnect in music now between like if people haven't seen you play live, because up until that point in October, I had listened to all your music online, on Fountain, on Wave Lake and not gotten to see you play live.

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And I feel like I was robbed because I think to truly see how talented an artist is, you've got to be in the same room.

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And to really hear your voice in the same room was so, like, I can't even describe how good you are as a singer, as an artist.

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It's just a shame if people can't see Joe Martin play live somewhere, which is, you know, leading into, of course, the fact that you have a tour coming up.

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Very kind.

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I see myself as more of a live artist and I really thrive, like, with an audience and being on stage.

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the studio really isn't my comfortable place uh especially like when you're surrounded by such

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talented guys you kind of got a bit of imposter syndrome being like well i'm out of my depth here

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you know in some ways but yeah it's it's i mean i'd love i'd just love to play in the states and

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all over really if i could make it work but for the time being i'm sort of in the uk doing as much

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as i can here and uh yeah i've kind of with this tour with the album i've tried not to take on too

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much because with my last album, Empty Passenger Seat, I tried to do everything, cover the whole

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country in one run. And it was so exhausting, not just from like actually, actually doing the gigs

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is a lot of fun. It's not that bad at all. Like that's the good part. The exhausting bit is trying

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to promote the whole tour. And I've kind of felt maybe I spread myself a bit too thin on the last

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tour. So I thought next time I'm going to split it in two and do a Northern tour first and then a

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southern tour a bit later on in the year so that's what i've done this time i've got eight dates in

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the north in april when the album's out and then i've got a similar amount of dates around the south

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of the uk in september so it's kind of like spread the load a little bit but yeah it's uh yeah i just

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i just want to gig anywhere everywhere yeah just if i can get to the stage at some point i'll be

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there be on the stage okay so what is the name of the album and when does it come out so the album's

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called Alone in Valentine. It's out on the 17th of April. A few singles are already out online now.

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In fact, the latest single, which is the opening track that I wrote with a guy called Ben Jonesy

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Jones from Nashville. He's great. That came out today on all streaming platforms, but it's all out

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in the value verse too. And maybe the album might be out a day or two early on all the V4V

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platforms. So we'll see. But yeah, that's the plan. Alone in Valentine. It's kind of a group of songs

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that I've been working on for the past, say, three years maybe.

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And it was all tied together with the song Alone in Valentine as a concept.

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It's not really, I wouldn't say it's like a title track of the album.

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It's more of an album track in my opinion,

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but it kind of just had this title that I just thought threaded all the songs really well.

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There's a cool story behind how I wrote that.

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We could go all night with stories.

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So I think it was the 2024 trip to Nashville.

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I was invited out there by Wavelake to do a show.

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that was with Ainsley as well that was a great gig and that was around the conference that was going on

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in Nashville and on that trip I was catching an uber from one part of town to the other

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get chatting to this uber driver who was telling me about this documentary film that he was working

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on called 10 year town and it kind of pricked my ears up because the phrase 10 years town 10 year

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town is a common phrase in Nashville because it is known as the 10-year town. It takes a decade

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to make it in Nashville, really, to pay your dues and to make it there. So he was telling me all about

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this documentary film and I asked if I would know anyone in the documentary and he said,

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probably not. There's a guy called Gabe Lee in there. And I was like, I was with Gabe last week

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because he was over in the UK, touring in the UK, and he put my name on the door to one of the shows

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because I met Gabe in 2018 when I was out there.

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And I said, well, you must know Vinny.

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And he's like, yeah, Vinny's in the documentary too.

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And I said, oh, well, I've written a song called

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It Doesn't Rain in LA with Vinny.

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And he was like, oh, I love that song.

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So I was like, oh my God, this Uber driver knows my song.

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Does this mean that I've made it now?

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So anyway, we hit it.

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So we hit it off and we penciled in a songwriting session.

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because I mean in Nashville you write with anyone and everyone you know the bartender your uber

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driver like there's no barriers you write with everyone um so we got together and we wrote this

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song and he threw out the line it was actually his line she's drinking tequila in the evening

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alone in valentine the song the premise of the song the idea that I took to him was like of this

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lady driving this silverado car through colorado down to texas and I was like I don't know if she's

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trying to run away from a bad relationship or whatever. I just had this image in my head.

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And then the song transpired. And I mean, I'm going to give it away for anyone that hasn't

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listened. But there's a twist at the end and she's scattering her husband's ashes on the banks of the

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Rio Grande. And she's traveling to all the places that they said they would go together and they

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never got the chance. And she's going alone on this trip. I only write sad songs, you know,

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if you don't know already. But so it was it was deep feeling songs like, yes.

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yeah it's pretty heavy adam curry's picked me up on that a few times anyway so the line that steve

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came out with was she's drinking tequila in the evening alone in valentine and i said alone in

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valentine i hadn't heard of valentine didn't know anything about it and he just said it's this

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little town in west texas because he'd been there before and i was just really intrigued by this and

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i thought what a great phrase alone in valentine and i said that sounds like the title of an album

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right there. And then when I finally got the chance to make it, to make the record with Goose

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and Cal, I sort of got back in touch with Steve and said, should we go to Valentine?

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And we did. So it's this little one horse town, one horse town in the middle of the desert,

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Texas, population, 73 people. And there's this little dive bar in the town and it's been dubbed

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the diviest bar in America. I don't know who gave it that title because I'm sure there's a lot

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a lot vying for that position but it was it was rough and ready and i mean half of the bar was

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collapsed and it was just desert behind it so it made for a really good shot and that's the

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that's the cover of the album artwork

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guitar solo

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in the pines

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and took the pieces

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of a broken heart

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to try and build

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a better life

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and all the words

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left unsaved

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and all the many

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miles ahead

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onto my way

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far away

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she'll find a place

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to pray

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and ask the Lord

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for strength

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from up on high

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He's headed for tomorrow

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In that beat-up Colorado

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She'll find her way

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To finally say goodbye

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guitar solo

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Standing there at night

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Lost in the marfilis

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Tequila in the evening

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Alone in Ballantyne

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A movie at the starlight

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A drive down River Road

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The Eagle's desperado

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Is playing on the radio

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And all the words are left unsaid

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We know that many miles ahead

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While on some highway far away

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She'll find a place to pray

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And ask the Lord for strength from up on high

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Who's headed for tomorrow

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In that beat-up Silverado

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she'll find her way to finally say goodbye. Those ashes in her hand on the banks of the Rio Grande,

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a warm Texas wind to take him home again Across that great divide she says her last goodbyes

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Her hands on the wheel, tears in her eyes.

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In his beat-up Silverado, through southern Colorado.

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How did you get into this space?

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I don't think I actually know your origin story of if it was you got into Wave Lake or Fountain First

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or met any particular person like Ainsley or whoever.

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How did you get into this space that we're in where we're just kind of building an alternative path

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to be discovered and be monetized, etc.?

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Well, it all started off from I was listening to podcasts about Bitcoin and Lightning stuff.

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And Oscar Meri from Fountain was on a podcast, a guy called Kevin Rook's podcast.

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I don't know if he's still doing that podcast now, but it was all kind of Lightning focused.

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And he was talking about this app that he was building, this podcasting app where you could support your favorite podcasters with sats, basically.

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and was just kind of explaining the whole idea behind making it just super easy to receive

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payments and then making it easy for people to send the payments you know the the fact that

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it's instantaneous and there's no you know lower or well i guess there is a higher amount technically

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but like you know you can you can pay them whatever you want from anywhere in the world

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and it's all obviously native to the lightning network and uh i just was like really interested

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by this and I thought you know this is such a good idea does this exist for music I wonder if

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anyone's working on a music equivalent and I just went ahead and basically put out a song

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on an RSS feed because I didn't really know anything about podcasting I still don't as you

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could tell I try to set up this microphone I don't do many podcasts these days that's okay

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yeah i kind of didn't really know how it works but then kind of started learning about rss and

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the open protocols and stuff and it's all it's all new to me because as a musician you have a

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dsp you have a basically you know your publisher who you upload to and they distribute to spotify

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apple everything on your behalf as like a middle a middle man so i i uploaded a track to rss.com

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with an RSS feed and it showed up in Fountain because, you know, the open protocols. And then

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I think I posted about it on Stacker News and Twitter and stuff and tagged a few Bitcoiners

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in a tweet and just said, hey, I've put some music out on Fountain app. You can send sats.

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And like, just out of curiosity, just for a bit of fun, if you like the song, you know,

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send me some sats because it's all about the ask as well. Like you've got to kind of put your music

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out there but then you got to make a point to like encourage people to send sats and just remind

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them that uh it is a voluntary thing but you know you as the artist you know it's good to be

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compensated because then you can continue making art and continue what you're doing so to my

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surprise i made nearly i think a hundred dollars in like a day or two i think it was like 80 pounds

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which is great like i was really blown away because it was amazing because uh i think

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you know i hadn't made that really on any song or even collection of songs you know over the years

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on spotify because obviously you don't really get paid anything so i it just clicked and i was like

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got even more interested and then sam means from wave lake very shortly after that reached out to

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me and said that they were working on this platform that was music specific which I was

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kind of looking for initially and then just said you know we'd love you to try it out and then kind

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of in one fell swoop uploaded my whole back catalog there and then I've just been kind of

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learning I've been kind of discovering and learning with everyone since as the technology's

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progressed and improved and it's getting easy to use and there's a lot more optionality now

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definitely than there was even just when was it 2022 like four three or four years ago oh wow so

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you've been doing this a while so it's a cool journey it's a cool yeah yeah well it's not that

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long in in you know the grand scheme of things but if it feels a longer timeline when you're when

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you're in it when you're in the trenches yeah it does so if i'm hearing this correctly you were a

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bitcoiner first and that's how you found the rss podcasting 2.0 you know lightning zaps

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boost, whatever you want to call it. Like I'm giving a word salad because there's kind of no

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easy eight second soundbite to explain what the, you know, quote unquote value verse is,

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but you already understood and already were passionate about Bitcoin.

220
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Yeah. Yeah, I was. And I kind of, I never, well, I didn't really expect a way to marry the two

221
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things like music and, you know, Bitcoin and the values that it imbues in it. And, uh, and then

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And this seemed like the perfect opportunity because, you know, like I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast probably knows the music industry is pretty broken.

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And, you know, there's a saying that Bitcoin fixes this.

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And I mean, might not go as far as to say it's a silver bullet, but it's definitely going to help, you know, bring some incentives back into line and kind of get the right people, you know, money to the right people that are actually making the art instead of these massive platforms that are kind of siphoning off all the all the value.

225
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So that kind of like really made me passionate when I saw how both things could intersect.

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And I mean, even back then, NOSTA, I don't think it was a thing.

227
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I can't remember when I joined NOSTA now, but I mean, even that is a whole different universe in itself.

228
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And it's growing so fast.

229
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And I think that's the way it's going to go from now on, really.

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So, yeah.

231
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What was your Bitcoin story?

232
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How did you get to Bitcoin?

233
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I love it when younger people grasp Bitcoin so easily.

234
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You know, it's just that to me is like, how do we bottle that, Joe?

235
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I don't think it's that easy because it does take a lot of reading and being a bit of a nerd.

236
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Just keep asking questions and keep digging and not being satisfied.

237
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You've got to have a certain type of curiosity, I think.

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But it was, I don't know, like I picked up a copy of The Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean, who I actually met recently at the Plan B conference in El Salvador.

239
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Got him to sign me a couple of books.

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So it was pretty, pretty nice moment for me getting to meet him and just say thank you.

241
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But it was that book that really kind of blew my mind and led me to reading a lot more and just taking it very seriously.

242
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And then I kind of, the approach I've taken, well, that I've tried to take with the music side of it is that this is a revolution.

243
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You know, it's not just a revolution in kind of savings and sound money, but it's a revolution in payments as well, as much as anything.

244
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And disintermediating the big sort of platforms and gatekeepers that have kind of had such a grip on not just the music industry, but everything really in general for so long.

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So I think the idea of being able to pay people directly with no middleman for, you know, the work that they're producing that you enjoy, the value should be going directly to those people.

246
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And so I've kind of tried to say it's a revolution in payments as well.

247
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That's what the Lightning Network's doing for the music and the artist side of stuff.

248
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You don't need permission to sign up, to create an account, to start receiving value straight away for your work that you've already made.

249
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So, you know, I always tell people that you've already done the proof of work in actually creating the music.

250
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You know, you've put the hours in, you've put the money up front, you've spent all that time and effort into creating a really beautiful piece of work.

251
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You're already putting it on Spotify and YouTube, which, you know, don't respect you as an artist.

252
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They don't value you.

253
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You can just upload it into this one extra place, but you can actually start receiving value immediately for that directly from people who value it.

254
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And that's pretty cool.

255
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So I just think we've hit a bit of a roadblock at the moment.

256
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I feel maybe, well, in Noster and just the value for value scene, it seems.

257
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I was kind of hoping there would be more people interested by now and involved.

258
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Yeah, same.

259
00:22:36,622 --> 00:22:38,982
And I don't know whether it's messaging.

260
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I don't know whether it's the tech.

261
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I think it's probably both.

262
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The concept is quite new and it's quite revolutionary.

263
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It's so hard to get your head around.

264
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But I think it needs to be massively simplified.

265
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I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for what I'm going to say, but I don't care. I'm going to say it anyway. There just needs to be easy, really easy on ramps, really easy on and off ramps for people. And I don't know how that's going to be built because there needs to be a bridge between the fiat world, if you will, and this new sort of decentralized way of doing things where, and we shouldn't even really maybe even be talking in terms of sats for the average person.

266
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just just display you know a balance in your local fiat currency if they want they can switch

267
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it to sats maybe in settings if they want but just you know send value you know but it just works and

268
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they can just send value and it reaches the other person and their songs are being published maybe

269
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to nostor and they can be discovered discovered in an open way but we we don't need to get too

270
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technical with the terms i think it's kind of maybe scaring people away or i don't know what it is but

271
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I've got like a few anecdotal stories like one anecdotal story recently I won't sort of give her

272
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name but a girl that gigs in similar circles to me I saw on Instagram that she'd been completely

273
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deplatformed while all her music had been completely taken down off Spotify Apple Music

274
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and everything I think it I don't know if it was malicious or if it was just a it was just an admin

275
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error on the part of her publisher but i mean could you imagine like your whole life's work

276
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just getting deleted it just must be so awful she was scrambling this is a conversation that

277
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that we have all the time you know because since you know i work for a company where we're building

278
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this alternative right we're the thing that we're working on right now is called ditto it's ditto.pub

279
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and it's you know it's a new nostre app that should do everything it should aggregate every

280
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form of nostre content whether it's video photos whatever i've streams you just turn it into

281
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whatever you want, right? So if you just want to log on and see live streams, that's all you have

282
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to do. If you just want to log on and see videos, that's all you have to do. And it should be,

283
00:24:39,742 --> 00:24:42,982
you know, it should in the end, we'll like integrate everything, right? It'll be like

284
00:24:42,982 --> 00:24:47,582
this everything app. But I think that you're making some strong points here of like, people do

285
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want to be able to pay in fiat because they don't know what the heck Bitcoin is. And they don't

286
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trust it, you know, especially here in the US, they equate it with, you know, crypto, and then

287
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they equate it with Trump, and nobody likes the guy that's, you know, apparently running the

288
00:24:59,942 --> 00:25:04,282
country and it turns into identity politics here. And if you throw in the word freedom,

289
00:25:04,542 --> 00:25:08,762
they don't like it, you know, because he uses that word, right? So if you throw in the word

290
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sovereignty, like that's a trigger word too. Like decentralized, nobody cares about. Like

291
00:25:14,402 --> 00:25:18,702
we keep, we've been using these terms for a couple of years, like value for value is clunky,

292
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decentralized is clunky, and the mainstream public isn't ready. You're right. You know,

293
00:25:23,862 --> 00:25:29,542
they're not ready for all this tech, technological jargon. They're not, they don't know what Bitcoin

294
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is and they don't trust it yet so like how are we going to explain to them layer two lightning

295
00:25:33,342 --> 00:25:38,402
and payments you know and how how are we going to explain all this to people and we start to try

296
00:25:38,402 --> 00:25:43,042
they freak out and they go back in their shell and they go okay thanks nice meeting you goodbye

297
00:25:43,042 --> 00:25:48,882
it's like you're absolutely right it does need to be well easier yeah just to finish the story as

298
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well so this this girl she got all the music wiped off the traditional platforms and i just basically

299
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reached out to her and as you said i'm so sorry to hear about this like that's that's just

300
00:26:00,342 --> 00:26:05,962
unforgivable that's awful i hope you get it sorted as soon as possible i and then i just

301
00:26:05,962 --> 00:26:10,562
sort of said like i thought it might be an opportunity to just suggest about this whole

302
00:26:10,562 --> 00:26:15,902
other ecosystem and i just said you know you can upload your music here it can't be taken down and

303
00:26:15,902 --> 00:26:20,622
you can start receiving you know value for it i just said you can get paid for it is what i said

304
00:26:20,622 --> 00:26:24,702
and she just came back to me and said i don't trust that stuff

305
00:26:25,482 --> 00:26:25,802
Right.

306
00:26:26,902 --> 00:26:30,202
And I thought, but you've just had your music deleted.

307
00:26:30,602 --> 00:26:32,242
You've had all your music deleted.

308
00:26:32,742 --> 00:26:35,142
So, but you still trust that.

309
00:26:35,882 --> 00:26:36,802
I don't get it.

310
00:26:36,842 --> 00:26:39,982
That's the position when you're in that position and you have no trust left.

311
00:26:40,442 --> 00:26:41,582
That makes sense.

312
00:26:41,722 --> 00:26:47,022
And my boss and I were talking about this on Radio Detox 2 where it's like, there is such skepticism right now.

313
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And it's about all of tech.

314
00:26:49,302 --> 00:26:50,402
It's about AI.

315
00:26:50,742 --> 00:26:55,342
It's about the big tech has ruined any level of trust.

316
00:26:55,342 --> 00:26:59,922
And, you know, this woman has had her deep platforming of her music.

317
00:27:00,302 --> 00:27:03,262
And I think that even happened to Sarah Jade, who you might know.

318
00:27:03,642 --> 00:27:10,922
Sarah Jade had one song deleted randomly with no recourse off of, I think it was Spotify one day.

319
00:27:11,022 --> 00:27:15,882
And it was like, what makes it okay for these big platforms to do that?

320
00:27:15,922 --> 00:27:20,602
And you guys are real musicians who actually pay money to book recording time.

321
00:27:20,722 --> 00:27:21,662
You write these songs.

322
00:27:21,742 --> 00:27:22,642
You play your instruments.

323
00:27:22,642 --> 00:27:25,022
You're not AI people at all.

324
00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:29,822
you know and that that's another problem i mean the stigma and the skepticism right now i think

325
00:27:29,822 --> 00:27:35,622
is warranted given where we're at and that's also kind of why we created things like bitcoin and

326
00:27:35,622 --> 00:27:52,964
nostril over time yeah i think so and yeah all the terminology as well it kind of i don think it taking off like the phrase value for value i think it just leaves people like looking at you like you got two heads like what are you talking about I don know The thing is and because it is like a decentralized movement there not like a

327
00:27:52,964 --> 00:27:56,384
committee, like we need to call it this, we're going to call it this. Everyone's going to like,

328
00:27:56,444 --> 00:28:02,784
you know, these terms are just going to like naturally evolve and kind of like become part

329
00:28:02,784 --> 00:28:07,724
of the vernacular as time goes on. But yeah, it's kind of strange. I don't really know.

330
00:28:07,724 --> 00:28:16,364
I like the zap term that has been adopted by Nostra and, you know, that kind of like is easier for people to grasp.

331
00:28:16,624 --> 00:28:19,604
Like zap, you know, is your music zappable?

332
00:28:19,824 --> 00:28:20,204
I don't know.

333
00:28:20,384 --> 00:28:22,064
Like, is your music value enabled?

334
00:28:22,724 --> 00:28:26,664
There needs to be like, you're asking, we should be putting the question on other people.

335
00:28:26,804 --> 00:28:29,824
Like, how can I pay you for your content?

336
00:28:29,824 --> 00:28:34,904
because at the moment like i think the best that artists have is like oh well go to my band camp

337
00:28:34,904 --> 00:28:41,984
and order a cd or go to my website and order a physical merch which you know i'm pushing that

338
00:28:41,984 --> 00:28:46,004
because i've got this album i need to sell some albums i got some vinyls done as well because

339
00:28:46,004 --> 00:28:51,124
vinyls are cool again they're back in fashion so i've i've got a load of physical merch that i need

340
00:28:51,124 --> 00:28:56,704
to sell so i am definitely pushing people to my website to buy physical but not not everyone has

341
00:28:56,704 --> 00:28:58,684
the CD players and the vinyl players anymore.

342
00:28:58,804 --> 00:29:00,824
They want digital and they want to be digital,

343
00:29:00,884 --> 00:29:02,064
but they still might want to contribute.

344
00:29:02,524 --> 00:29:03,364
So I don't know.

345
00:29:03,624 --> 00:29:07,724
Like I said, I think someone is going to have to create a bridge

346
00:29:07,724 --> 00:29:11,104
for people that are never going to maybe have sats,

347
00:29:11,524 --> 00:29:12,484
but go and buy sats.

348
00:29:12,704 --> 00:29:13,724
Like they're not going to buy Bitcoin.

349
00:29:13,884 --> 00:29:17,784
I can't convince someone who likes me to go buy Bitcoin,

350
00:29:18,044 --> 00:29:20,824
somehow get it onto the Lightning Network in exchange.

351
00:29:20,824 --> 00:29:24,024
I've all joined the KYC to send me like $5.

352
00:29:24,544 --> 00:29:25,584
Like it's just never going to happen.

353
00:29:25,884 --> 00:29:26,484
It's never going to happen.

354
00:29:26,484 --> 00:29:30,004
And as long as that is the case, it's never going to take off.

355
00:29:30,644 --> 00:29:33,724
It will just remain a niche community on the internet, which is fine,

356
00:29:33,864 --> 00:29:35,704
like if people want that to be the case.

357
00:29:35,804 --> 00:29:38,164
But if it wants to reach some sort of broader adoption

358
00:29:38,164 --> 00:29:41,924
and actually help real musicians that are needing the help,

359
00:29:42,244 --> 00:29:44,044
there's going to have to be an easier way to do it.

360
00:29:44,524 --> 00:29:51,644
And I think the whole problem is that to be that bridge, if you will,

361
00:29:51,684 --> 00:29:54,504
if you want to call it that, you just get labeled as an exchange

362
00:29:54,504 --> 00:29:59,084
because you're basically taking people's dollars and switching them for sats therefore you are an

363
00:29:59,084 --> 00:30:04,084
exchange that that just opens like the whole can of worms of all the regulatory issues that would

364
00:30:04,084 --> 00:30:08,744
come along with that and it just makes it impossible for anyone that's not already starting

365
00:30:08,744 --> 00:30:15,204
off with a massive you know funding behind them to do it so and then the people that are that have

366
00:30:15,204 --> 00:30:19,844
that kind of money are kind of benefiting off the whole system they don't want to disrupt themselves

367
00:30:19,844 --> 00:30:26,544
like Spotify I don't see Spotify ever adopting you know a kind of baking lightning and direct

368
00:30:26,544 --> 00:30:30,364
payments into their platform because that would just be completely undermining their business

369
00:30:30,364 --> 00:30:36,044
model I mean there's an inherent conflict in Spotify itself because it is it either pays

370
00:30:36,044 --> 00:30:41,584
artists like quote properly or like more at least and then it has to answer to its shareholders it

371
00:30:41,584 --> 00:30:47,564
can't do both it's contradictory to its whole existence so um yeah I don't know I could talk

372
00:30:47,564 --> 00:30:54,204
for ages about this rant on about it but which is good and as a person who has you know participated

373
00:30:54,204 --> 00:31:00,364
in this space for a couple years it's i i could say a lot that i wouldn't say in a recording

374
00:31:00,364 --> 00:31:05,824
about it i could i could say volumes if you and i were just like sitting in a bar like unrecorded i

375
00:31:05,824 --> 00:31:11,244
could i could speak volumes as to why the space hasn't taken off you know you i could give somebody

376
00:31:11,244 --> 00:31:16,464
i could give you 20 worth of bitcoin and sign you up for fountain and put it on your fountain wallet

377
00:31:16,464 --> 00:31:19,604
But at the end of the day, to grasp it, right?

378
00:31:20,004 --> 00:31:21,364
But then they don't come back.

379
00:31:21,664 --> 00:31:33,344
Like it doesn't stick because part of the problem is that culturally we have become attuned to paying for a monthly subscription to get all of the music we want.

380
00:31:33,344 --> 00:31:44,424
And, you know, that's the very mainstream view where what we're doing is something completely different, which is if I can get the Joes, the Ainsleys, the Sarah Jades, the Ben Jonesy Jones, the Longies.

381
00:31:44,424 --> 00:31:47,704
If I can get all of you guys in here and you're bringing your fans.

382
00:31:48,464 --> 00:31:59,184
And ideally, if we had the network effect of Spotify for you guys who are indie artists with original music, nobody's got a record label.

383
00:31:59,184 --> 00:32:01,384
But you have this ability to make money.

384
00:32:01,644 --> 00:32:12,324
You have this ability to get discoverability through this, you know, alternate system that we have created that keeps you in control as an artist, keeps you open and free.

385
00:32:12,324 --> 00:32:14,524
and it doesn't really involve,

386
00:32:14,704 --> 00:32:16,064
there doesn't need to be too much effort

387
00:32:16,064 --> 00:32:16,884
on the part of the fan.

388
00:32:16,984 --> 00:32:18,704
It's just, here's, you know,

389
00:32:18,884 --> 00:32:22,044
the artists that I like are here in this ecosystem

390
00:32:22,044 --> 00:32:23,864
and I can pay them directly.

391
00:32:24,284 --> 00:32:25,864
And I'm such a big Joe Martin fan

392
00:32:25,864 --> 00:32:28,244
that when I send him like some stats,

393
00:32:28,404 --> 00:32:31,124
I actually get to have like a one-to-one relationship with him.

394
00:32:31,184 --> 00:32:33,824
Like I actually get to, you know, talk to him,

395
00:32:33,864 --> 00:32:34,764
at least on the internet.

396
00:32:35,004 --> 00:32:36,744
And that's such a cool feeling.

397
00:32:37,044 --> 00:32:38,904
And if we can get this to the point

398
00:32:38,904 --> 00:32:40,284
where there is a broader adoption,

399
00:32:40,524 --> 00:32:42,264
then that actually would work for you.

400
00:32:42,324 --> 00:32:49,664
as a career. And then we talk about the 1,000 true fans model, where if you have 1,000 true fans,

401
00:32:49,764 --> 00:32:56,104
and maybe they're spending $100 a year on being your fan because they pay to go to your concert

402
00:32:56,104 --> 00:33:03,904
in London, or they also buy a CD and they buy a vinyl, or they aren't in London like me. They

403
00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:09,284
can't see you, but I can watch you online when you have an upcoming show. I can watch you on

404
00:33:09,284 --> 00:33:15,664
all of the streaming platforms that work with Nostr, and I can zap in whichever one that I'm

405
00:33:15,664 --> 00:33:20,544
choosing to use at the moment. You know, I could probably, you know, watch your next show on Ditto

406
00:33:20,544 --> 00:33:25,544
if I want to, or I can watch it on Toonstur. I can watch it on Nostr, which is N-O-S-T-U-R,

407
00:33:25,624 --> 00:33:32,004
that app. Like, I can zap you on Primal and watch you live there. And then I don't get to miss a

408
00:33:32,004 --> 00:33:37,924
Joe Martin show ever because we have the technology. But I just need 999 more of me

409
00:33:37,924 --> 00:33:45,464
who like Joe Martin and to get involved in being a Joe Martin fan. And it just flips the system on

410
00:33:45,464 --> 00:33:51,724
its head to where we were back in the 90s as a music fan in the 90s. I'm buying the $20 ticket

411
00:33:51,724 --> 00:33:57,944
to see Korn at the Warfield in San Francisco, you know, and then when Korn's new album comes out,

412
00:33:57,944 --> 00:34:01,604
I'm dating myself, Joe. I'm getting old here, right?

413
00:34:02,204 --> 00:34:14,264
And then the next Korn album comes out and I'm running down to Tower Records to pay for my $20 CD to get the new Korn album because there was no other way for me to get it, right?

414
00:34:14,264 --> 00:34:20,664
Now we do have a lot of choice and it really does have to be a conscious choice to support an artist.

415
00:34:20,664 --> 00:34:35,684
And I know that we've been doing this for a couple of years and it's such a tough sell because, you know, we either lose them in the Bitcoin conversation because people have stigma around that or we lose them in the technology conversation because look at how hard Joe's working.

416
00:34:35,864 --> 00:34:37,544
He has traveled across the pond.

417
00:34:38,164 --> 00:34:43,124
He's got to be on social media and band camp, et cetera, et cetera.

418
00:34:43,144 --> 00:34:44,404
He's got to do all these things.

419
00:34:44,524 --> 00:34:49,884
And then he's got to get on a podcast with me on a Friday night and pump his album and his tour here.

420
00:34:49,884 --> 00:34:54,724
this guy never stops working so then the conversation becomes like okay so now i've

421
00:34:54,724 --> 00:35:00,284
got to be on another platform like i'm on distro kid and i gotta make a freaking tiktok and i gotta

422
00:35:00,284 --> 00:35:05,264
be on heather's podcast and then i gotta run a nostor account too and a fountain account and

423
00:35:05,264 --> 00:35:11,424
then i gotta understand rss like it becomes kind of like it's it's like why should i care about

424
00:35:11,424 --> 00:35:17,224
your one more thing that you're adding to my pile yeah completely i think all the artists that i

425
00:35:17,224 --> 00:35:22,804
know and i move in circles where they're just at the wits end with all the technology they're just

426
00:35:22,804 --> 00:35:29,404
overwhelmed by it and it's kind of feel suffocating they i think they feel like they can't pour the

427
00:35:29,404 --> 00:35:34,864
time that they have into what they do best which is their craft because they're so distracted with

428
00:35:34,864 --> 00:35:40,624
all these things that are designed to steal attention in a way and designed to keep you

429
00:35:40,624 --> 00:35:46,424
kind of sucked in to their platforms i think what you described the thousand true fans thing i've

430
00:35:46,424 --> 00:35:52,524
said it before but really is kind of the only thing that's keeping me going with it like the

431
00:35:52,524 --> 00:36:00,264
promise of that one day because um i think if value for value doesn't work it doesn't work out

432
00:36:00,264 --> 00:36:04,984
um i think the whole thing is completely screwed whatever's left of the industry i know that

433
00:36:04,984 --> 00:36:12,584
sounds really blackpilled but spotify has done irreparable damage to the music industry because

434
00:36:12,584 --> 00:36:19,044
firstly it's basically made the populace at large think that music is free which you know we can

435
00:36:19,044 --> 00:36:24,484
debate about well if it's a digital file it technically is free the marginal cost of replication

436
00:36:24,484 --> 00:36:29,424
is zero but the actual cost of producing that file in the first place recording it in a studio

437
00:36:29,424 --> 00:36:35,464
getting the musicians the years that go into it that's not free so unless you want ai slop to be

438
00:36:35,464 --> 00:36:41,624
your musical diet for the rest of time as opposed to real living breathing human beings then it's

439
00:36:41,624 --> 00:36:46,524
Kind of like people have to take this seriously or it's going to be over, I think.

440
00:36:46,744 --> 00:36:53,084
Like maybe I'm just particularly blackpilled at the moment because like I don't want to sound too down.

441
00:36:53,224 --> 00:36:55,324
But yeah, I was at a gig last night.

442
00:36:55,524 --> 00:36:58,204
I got given a ticket to go watch a tribute act.

443
00:36:58,204 --> 00:37:01,544
You know, I don't, I never really, I don't watch tribute acts.

444
00:37:01,684 --> 00:37:11,044
But just out of morbid curiosity, I went down and saw this tribute act who was a Luke Combs tribute act.

445
00:37:11,044 --> 00:37:15,784
Now, I'm not a fan of Luke Combs really to begin with, but it was more of like market research.

446
00:37:15,944 --> 00:37:17,324
I want to see how many people are there.

447
00:37:17,464 --> 00:37:18,544
I want to know their demographic.

448
00:37:18,884 --> 00:37:21,744
I want to see their reaction to this tribute.

449
00:37:22,144 --> 00:37:28,704
And the show was sold out, £28 a ticket, which is like $35 a ticket, thousand people pretty much.

450
00:37:29,204 --> 00:37:33,124
And this guy does 150 gigs a year to that size of audience.

451
00:37:33,664 --> 00:37:35,084
And he's not even the real guy.

452
00:37:35,724 --> 00:37:36,904
So I worked it out.

453
00:37:36,904 --> 00:37:44,884
his tour grosses uh 3.2 million or something every year obviously like that's the total gross like

454
00:37:44,884 --> 00:37:49,104
that's not the profits you know probably booking the venues themselves and then they've got a crew

455
00:37:49,104 --> 00:37:54,284
and everything and the travel but it's he's making a good what he's making a good living that is well

456
00:37:54,284 --> 00:37:59,064
especially in the uk it seems that is the only kind of people that are making money in music

457
00:37:59,064 --> 00:38:03,844
anymore a tribute axe it's either like legacy bands that are still around you know you're

458
00:38:03,844 --> 00:38:06,364
Paul McCartney's in your Elton Johns who are clinging on,

459
00:38:06,484 --> 00:38:07,684
or it's the tributes.

460
00:38:07,944 --> 00:38:11,404
And then, like, the kind of grassroots original artists

461
00:38:11,404 --> 00:38:14,844
are just, like, kind of fighting over the crumbs that are left over

462
00:38:14,844 --> 00:38:16,844
and are not really making anything.

463
00:38:17,024 --> 00:38:20,544
So I think the only way to return to, like, some sort of healthy,

464
00:38:20,704 --> 00:38:24,444
like, organic music scene, whatever that might look like,

465
00:38:24,444 --> 00:38:28,804
is through disintermediating these massive monopolies, you know,

466
00:38:29,024 --> 00:38:32,484
digital monopolies and ticket monopolies and all this stuff.

467
00:38:32,484 --> 00:38:37,404
So I don't know how that's going to happen, what it's going to look like, but I think this is part of the answer.

468
00:38:38,144 --> 00:38:40,464
And I just wish I could get more people to care about it.

469
00:38:41,024 --> 00:38:54,744
I've reached out to music podcasts in general, like just, you know, music podcasts to talk about my album and as a musician and a songwriter, just to try and sneak this into the conversation, just to bring it to people's attention that probably don't know it exists.

470
00:38:54,964 --> 00:38:57,164
But I haven't been successful as of yet.

471
00:38:57,164 --> 00:39:02,504
If I just send a thousand more cold emails, right, like one will break through.

472
00:39:02,824 --> 00:39:04,624
You know, that's kind of where I'm at with it.

473
00:39:04,744 --> 00:39:08,184
And I spend time, you know, I work full time in this space.

474
00:39:08,184 --> 00:39:14,664
And so I'm always racking my brain how to tweak the messaging, you know, to get through to people.

475
00:39:14,864 --> 00:39:16,344
How do we speak their language?

476
00:39:16,544 --> 00:39:18,604
How do we meet them where they're at?

477
00:39:18,744 --> 00:39:22,064
Because it and then I'll always circle back to like, oh, we just need to educate people more.

478
00:39:22,184 --> 00:39:23,664
And then it's like, no, we don't have time for that.

479
00:39:23,704 --> 00:39:24,884
We've been doing that for two years.

480
00:39:24,884 --> 00:39:30,464
We just, who is going to be the, you know, the person that sends it over the edge?

481
00:39:30,464 --> 00:39:35,344
Because we think, oh, if just the right famous, you know, famous person comes in and adopts this.

482
00:39:35,824 --> 00:39:47,204
But then when you talk to those people who do work in the music industry, who are a bit bigger, maybe they're not like household names, but they're, you know, they're making a living as musicians.

483
00:39:47,204 --> 00:39:50,764
And, you know, they might have a record label and they definitely have a manager.

484
00:39:50,764 --> 00:40:03,584
And when those people say, hey, but I love this, but my manager has really told me that it's absolutely career death for me to ever mention the word Bitcoin or for me to, you know.

485
00:40:03,684 --> 00:40:11,364
But we're also very close to this tipping point because you see this like you see the cancel Spotify hashtag on social media.

486
00:40:11,364 --> 00:40:16,024
And then you see that like there are people who are ditching Spotify and then you watch the thought process.

487
00:40:16,024 --> 00:40:40,824
I forget which blogs. This was like months ago that I read about the ditching Spotify movement because here in the United States, people are getting mad because ICE bought ads on Spotify. So people are trying to listen to their music and they're getting fed, you know, customs enforcement ads that we all hate. We all do not like what's going on in this country. Joe, like, don't judge me for being American. None of us are for this. We were just we're stuck here with this thing.

488
00:40:40,824 --> 00:40:44,604
And so just, you know, let me clear our American name here.

489
00:40:44,984 --> 00:40:46,264
But people don't like it.

490
00:40:46,304 --> 00:40:47,804
And so they start looking for alternatives.

491
00:40:47,964 --> 00:40:50,244
And then they start looking at the big name alternatives.

492
00:40:50,344 --> 00:40:58,784
And then those big name alternatives are big names because they're companies that have money because they're doing the VC model.

493
00:40:58,904 --> 00:41:03,564
So they have VC money, which is, you know, I say this probably on every podcast now.

494
00:41:03,664 --> 00:41:10,304
VC money is the most expensive money you are ever going to accept because you have to turn that around several times over.

495
00:41:10,304 --> 00:41:31,684
You have to provide value. And so we're taking the traditional business of creating value. And instead of a company creating value, we're allowing people to be valued. We're allowing your art to be valued. And there's no company. There's no shareholder. There's nothing to give me a headline in TechCrunch or Forbes, right?

496
00:41:31,684 --> 00:41:46,466
Like we have created our own alternate universe where I have my own path for journalism I can write for Lightning News I can write for my own sub stack and probably five people read my sub stack But if I can write about this for lightning news it can get some attention right

497
00:41:46,506 --> 00:41:50,086
If I can make the radio detox podcast, it can get some attention.

498
00:41:50,586 --> 00:41:52,506
But I'm still kind of in my bubble, right?

499
00:41:52,546 --> 00:41:55,406
I'm still not getting my normie friends interested.

500
00:41:55,406 --> 00:41:58,346
I have a friend who is on fire for AI, right?

501
00:41:58,446 --> 00:41:59,946
He's just in love with it.

502
00:41:59,946 --> 00:42:05,586
And he's becoming that influencer-y guy who's like, I'm going to be your AI solution.

503
00:42:05,766 --> 00:42:07,086
I'm going to teach you all about AI.

504
00:42:07,086 --> 00:42:13,306
And I'm like, dude, I can literally teach all your prospects how to do this quicker and cheaper.

505
00:42:13,546 --> 00:42:15,086
You have nothing special going on here.

506
00:42:15,166 --> 00:42:22,126
I can open source it for everybody watching this and falling into your trap where you become the guru, right?

507
00:42:22,206 --> 00:42:23,966
All these online gurus, these influencers.

508
00:42:24,426 --> 00:42:26,206
And it's like, just give people the skills, right?

509
00:42:26,206 --> 00:42:30,146
Like it's there's there's an alternate path to like anything going on right now.

510
00:42:30,366 --> 00:42:34,746
And that's what people don't know because they're still fed into a system.

511
00:42:35,026 --> 00:42:37,506
Right. We are fed into kind of this trough.

512
00:42:37,586 --> 00:42:41,246
Right. This funnel that takes us to, you know, big name tech.

513
00:42:41,246 --> 00:42:44,266
Like, oh, you want to work with AI? OK, we're all going to work with Anthropic.

514
00:42:44,426 --> 00:42:46,566
We're all going to work with Claude because that's the big name thing.

515
00:42:46,626 --> 00:42:48,806
And sure, it's the best product out there.

516
00:42:48,906 --> 00:42:51,106
But there are also alternatives that aren't getting any place.

517
00:42:51,146 --> 00:42:54,306
So that's kind of where we're at, where we're like, we're the independent thing.

518
00:42:54,306 --> 00:42:57,186
We're the open source thing, whatever you want to call it.

519
00:42:57,306 --> 00:43:03,746
I'm just starting to call it kind of the alternate universe, like the parallel universe where, yeah, we're not following the model.

520
00:43:03,966 --> 00:43:05,046
Like we're the misfits.

521
00:43:05,226 --> 00:43:06,326
We're the renegades.

522
00:43:06,426 --> 00:43:15,666
We created our own model where I can literally, me here in Arizona, America, you know, I can send Joe money for his new album.

523
00:43:15,846 --> 00:43:19,406
And he gets it instantly because of the Lightning Network.

524
00:43:19,406 --> 00:43:25,266
ago. There's no intermediate. There's no like, I don't have to go have my bank talk to his bank

525
00:43:25,266 --> 00:43:31,266
and it's the weekend. So he'll get the payment next week because it's the weekend or maybe

526
00:43:31,266 --> 00:43:36,446
there's a holiday and then I'm sending my American money to his British account. Like, no, we don't

527
00:43:36,446 --> 00:43:41,826
need to go through all that when I can just like, boom, I'm zapping it right now with the tools on

528
00:43:41,826 --> 00:43:48,446
my phone and you've got it. And we're done here. And he knows that like, oh, Heather likes my music.

529
00:43:48,446 --> 00:43:50,686
Heather sent me a zap or who's this Heather person?

530
00:43:51,186 --> 00:43:56,686
Like, it's kind of magical what we're doing here, but getting it to people, that is where we're at.

531
00:43:56,866 --> 00:43:59,386
It's like you're saying, it needs to be easier.

532
00:43:59,506 --> 00:44:00,966
The messaging needs to be clearer.

533
00:44:01,246 --> 00:44:05,906
And every time I have an argument or a discussion, we'll call it a discussion, Joe.

534
00:44:06,026 --> 00:44:10,846
Every time I have a discussion with somebody about what to call this, nobody agrees with me.

535
00:44:11,006 --> 00:44:11,646
And that's okay.

536
00:44:11,826 --> 00:44:16,946
But, like, I think the last thing I landed on was it should be called open music, right?

537
00:44:16,946 --> 00:44:18,686
because I live in an open source world.

538
00:44:19,226 --> 00:44:23,026
And then Julie, Julie Costello, shout out to Julie, Ainsley's mom said,

539
00:44:23,466 --> 00:44:25,746
well, that's not really correct either,

540
00:44:25,926 --> 00:44:27,606
which brings me back to something that you said,

541
00:44:27,686 --> 00:44:29,586
which is people expect music to be free.

542
00:44:30,066 --> 00:44:33,226
But what we're asking for is people to value music again.

543
00:44:33,666 --> 00:44:36,286
And so if I call it open music, then that leads,

544
00:44:36,486 --> 00:44:39,746
and Julie's right about this, that leads down another lane

545
00:44:39,746 --> 00:44:41,766
where music is not free.

546
00:44:42,166 --> 00:44:43,846
Joe did spend money to make it,

547
00:44:43,846 --> 00:44:47,346
And he is an artist who deserves to hang on to his IP.

548
00:44:47,626 --> 00:44:55,086
And this is where I get heat in this space is I still believe that you should have your intellectual property ownership, right?

549
00:44:55,226 --> 00:44:56,926
You should be able to own that.

550
00:44:57,446 --> 00:44:59,166
That is your genius at work.

551
00:44:59,166 --> 00:45:07,286
And yes, it's a legality, but the publishing has always been the thing in the industry where artists kind of, you know, park their value.

552
00:45:07,486 --> 00:45:12,126
You know, if you look at the publishing catalogs and the value of them that have been sold over the years, look at the Beatles.

553
00:45:12,126 --> 00:45:27,746
You know, look at what their publishing was worth. You know, there's there's such a sovereign individual aspect to this space. And yes, I want to be sovereign. Yes, I want to be free. And yes, I want to be open source. But the work that I create doesn't mean that you get to pirate it and profit off of it, too.

554
00:45:27,746 --> 00:45:35,566
And that to me, like, I want to call it open music, but I also don't want to give people permission to just pirate the hell out of my hard work, you know.

555
00:45:35,646 --> 00:45:46,306
And then there's a small portion who are very loud in this space, kind of a vocal minority fallacy that say, oh, well, everything should be free and open and I should be able to pirate it all.

556
00:45:46,426 --> 00:45:52,286
And it's like, well, let's not go to that extreme either, you know, because that's going to scare the musicians off from this space, too.

557
00:45:52,286 --> 00:46:00,446
100% yeah um I don't know I just think it should be left down to the individual themselves how open

558
00:46:00,446 --> 00:46:04,706
they want to make their music and how accessible they want to make it and if a musician says go

559
00:46:04,706 --> 00:46:10,606
ahead pirate my music listen to it or whatever um they can do that you know there's a difference

560
00:46:10,606 --> 00:46:17,266
between that and then someone stealing your song idea and making their own slightly adjusted version

561
00:46:17,266 --> 00:46:21,226
and then claiming right to it and make trying to make money off that I think that's a different

562
00:46:21,226 --> 00:46:26,566
argument to be made but i don't know i think as well musicians you don't like a lot of them that

563
00:46:26,566 --> 00:46:30,786
they don't want to go against the grain and they don't want to break away from the pack so if all

564
00:46:30,786 --> 00:46:36,046
the musicians are over here doing this that's kind of like the expected thing to do they don't want

565
00:46:36,046 --> 00:46:40,406
to break off and do something like that kind of seems a bit crazy and different so there's that

566
00:46:40,406 --> 00:46:49,226
inertia to try and get over um yeah like the this maybe stigma that comes with like bitcoin and well

567
00:46:49,226 --> 00:46:55,166
Nostra people don't even know what it is yet because it's still so new but um like I kind of

568
00:46:55,166 --> 00:47:00,866
I'm past caring really like I don't care I think at this point I've been touring for 10 years now

569
00:47:00,866 --> 00:47:06,586
and you know I've toured extensively around the UK like most of the venues I've been through at

570
00:47:06,586 --> 00:47:11,786
some point and I know the venues that and the venues know me that like me and I go back to them

571
00:47:11,786 --> 00:47:17,466
and we have a good relationship and you know very slowly been building up a fan base that's been

572
00:47:17,466 --> 00:47:22,926
really supportive over the past few years like i don't know i'm not gonna kind of like not what's

573
00:47:22,926 --> 00:47:27,266
the word i'm not gonna like toe the line or not say anything that might be deemed controversial

574
00:47:27,266 --> 00:47:32,826
just so that i can maybe possibly be allowed to to progress to whatever the next level is

575
00:47:32,826 --> 00:47:39,746
like all i care about is making good music while making the best music i can and what i care about

576
00:47:39,746 --> 00:47:45,086
is the people that listen to it enjoying it like and and them showing up for a gig or them buying

577
00:47:45,086 --> 00:47:51,046
a CD or them zapping me some sats you know like that's all I want like I just want to like make

578
00:47:51,046 --> 00:47:56,066
it work because they're living and that's all I'm asking for but like a lot of artists they

579
00:47:56,066 --> 00:48:01,026
they're looking up here they want to be doing the stadiums and they want to be on a record label

580
00:48:01,026 --> 00:48:06,126
which is great you know it's fine but obviously a lot of strings come attached to those dreams as

581
00:48:06,126 --> 00:48:12,546
well yeah um so it it just depends what kind of personality you have and where you see your career

582
00:48:12,546 --> 00:48:18,406
going for me like i kind of it's because i think i can see the potential in all this stuff in the

583
00:48:18,406 --> 00:48:24,286
long term that it kind of gets me excited but just kind of seeing the slow progression and sometimes

584
00:48:24,286 --> 00:48:31,006
the two steps back it feels is is a bit frustrating but hey it just proves that you know it's a market

585
00:48:31,006 --> 00:48:35,006
test at the end of the day the tech isn't sticky enough it's not it's not sticky enough to keep

586
00:48:35,006 --> 00:48:40,646
people here so we can keep pretending that oh it's all fine or we can ask the hard questions why

587
00:48:40,646 --> 00:48:46,126
why are people leaving you know why why are people trying it once and then not coming back i mean the

588
00:48:46,126 --> 00:48:50,686
big part of it is the catalog for the music side people people just want to be where the catalog

589
00:48:50,686 --> 00:48:56,286
of music is so i don't really know fully how it works but a friend of mine recently ditched spotify

590
00:48:56,286 --> 00:49:01,646
and he's on a platform called qbus which i hadn't heard of but but it's got all this all the same

591
00:49:01,646 --> 00:49:06,606
catalog as spotify so i'm guessing that there's like a massive license that these platforms can

592
00:49:06,606 --> 00:49:13,246
buy to be able to have access to the catalog, I imagine. Yeah. So I guess that's expensive.

593
00:49:13,666 --> 00:49:17,706
I guess people like Nick and Oscar and Sam from Waverlake will know more about that than I do.

594
00:49:18,026 --> 00:49:23,566
But that's a big part of it. If the catalog's not there, why, you know, if a few indie artists are

595
00:49:23,566 --> 00:49:28,726
there, you know, that's cool. But at the end of the day, trying to convince people to download a

596
00:49:28,726 --> 00:49:34,006
whole app just to listen to like you and a couple of other people is very unrealistic. So the catalog

597
00:49:34,006 --> 00:49:38,266
needs to be there with all their favorite bands and their playlists that they can move across

598
00:49:38,266 --> 00:49:42,726
if they want to make that move it's just got to be super seamless and just easy and then the value

599
00:49:42,726 --> 00:49:47,506
prop has to be really compelling for artists to want to you know that are already stressed and

600
00:49:47,506 --> 00:49:52,806
like fatigued with it all to want to you know take the time to try and understand it i don't think

601
00:49:52,806 --> 00:49:56,566
they should need to understand it and again this is going to get me some hate from people but

602
00:49:56,566 --> 00:50:03,066
it should just work it should just work and it should be seamless and it should the ux and the

603
00:50:03,066 --> 00:50:07,886
The onboarding flows should just be that seamless that they don't even need to know how it's working.

604
00:50:08,326 --> 00:50:10,506
They just know they're getting paid and it's better than Spotify.

605
00:50:10,886 --> 00:50:11,346
There you go.

606
00:50:12,026 --> 00:50:13,146
I'm going to work on that.

607
00:50:13,306 --> 00:50:16,966
I've got some smart big galaxy brains on the team.

608
00:50:17,186 --> 00:50:19,346
And, you know, if we can tackle that.

609
00:50:19,586 --> 00:50:22,226
And you just said like about 300 important things there.

610
00:50:22,226 --> 00:50:32,266
So, like, just to kind of back up, like, I think the most important thing that you kind of said there was that, you know, like artists should be deciding, you know, how their IP is used.

611
00:50:32,266 --> 00:50:53,986
You know, like, let's just start there. Like, that's meeting artists where they're at is very important still. And I think that there's a small cabal of loud podcasters who think that they know best in this space. And they don't, which is why I ask these questions. Like, what do the artists want? Right. What do the artists want with the music, with the IP? And like, so what I'm hearing from you is like, we just want this to be easy.

612
00:50:53,986 --> 00:51:05,886
And probably the best thing that could happen is if one of these big tech platforms that we hate, but that has the VC money that can pay for the PRO, you know, pay for the music licensing.

613
00:51:06,066 --> 00:51:15,546
Because like this is an important distinction to make here is why I can play music on this podcast is because I get it off of Fountain, which is, you know, RSS.

614
00:51:15,966 --> 00:51:17,566
And that's where Joe's music is.

615
00:51:17,566 --> 00:51:24,966
And it's not like Joe and I had this meeting where Joe was like, OK, Heather, you can play this, this and this song because it's on my upcoming album.

616
00:51:25,146 --> 00:51:28,386
Like that's like radio stuff from back in the day when I did radio.

617
00:51:28,586 --> 00:51:43,826
I could play songs on the radio because we were part of a big corporation and the big corporation would pay for the music rights so that I could play the new Wiz Khalifa song at seven in the morning on Power 93.5 in Wichita.

618
00:51:43,826 --> 00:51:47,426
Right. Like that's how I could do that on the radio.

619
00:51:47,566 --> 00:51:50,806
And that's why I can't play Wiz Khalifa on Radio Detox.

620
00:51:50,806 --> 00:52:08,286
And I can play Joe Martin because he's made his music available for me or anybody else who wants to start a podcast and a podcasting to app, a.k.a. modern podcasting app, an app that is open to where when you're listening to the podcast, you're zapping me and Joe.

621
00:52:08,406 --> 00:52:13,366
And then when we shut up and we start playing a song by Joe, then the music, you know, is playing.

622
00:52:13,506 --> 00:52:16,546
And I've used the technology to make sure the money goes directly to Joe.

623
00:52:16,546 --> 00:52:24,266
So make sure that you're sending money when the song is playing on Fountain and then Joe gets that money.

624
00:52:24,486 --> 00:52:29,526
Right. That's that's the whole point is for to make it worthwhile for the artist to be here.

625
00:52:29,626 --> 00:52:34,846
And yes, it does need to be like that stripped down and easy of like, hey, you listen to the podcast.

626
00:52:35,246 --> 00:52:41,206
You can give Joe money. That's kind of the whole point of like, if you like the song, vote by giving it money.

627
00:52:41,206 --> 00:52:47,686
And however that looks on your end, I always tell people to use the Fountain app because I think it makes it that plain.

628
00:52:47,946 --> 00:52:53,126
If you were signing up from the Fountain app, I think Fountain kind of walks you through it a little bit better.

629
00:52:53,346 --> 00:52:57,726
You're already probably open to doing this thing because you downloaded the Fountain app.

630
00:52:58,126 --> 00:53:08,466
And I think you're there and you're kind of like pushing the buttons and going, okay, so if I like her as a podcast, but I don't care about Bitcoin and I want to support her as a podcaster,

631
00:53:08,466 --> 00:53:12,146
Or I'll just sign up for her five buck a month, you know, subscription, whatever.

632
00:53:12,426 --> 00:53:15,966
Or I'll find another way to give her, you know, kudos or whatever.

633
00:53:15,966 --> 00:53:18,986
And like, sure, go share it on Twitter or whatever, you know, whatever you want to do.

634
00:53:19,226 --> 00:53:25,506
But then if, you know, for the purpose of doing this with Joe here, I want to give Joe a voice.

635
00:53:25,866 --> 00:53:32,666
Because I think the musician voices, when you guys start to talk about the business end of things and how much work you put into this.

636
00:53:32,666 --> 00:53:45,966
Like you literally travel to the United States to get album art done in Valentine, Texas, like to shoot music videos, like recording studio time costs money.

637
00:53:46,226 --> 00:53:47,566
Like Joe wants to eat.

638
00:53:47,726 --> 00:53:48,786
Joe wants to pay his rent.

639
00:53:48,786 --> 00:53:59,086
And I took a lot of heat from a small cabal of really unfriendly people in podcasting for saying that like artists should be able to eat and pay rent and pay bills and not have to have like a day job.

640
00:53:59,426 --> 00:54:02,366
Like you should just be able to do your art.

641
00:54:02,366 --> 00:54:16,746
You should be able to do your music. I think the world would be an incredibly less happy place without music in it and without Joe Martin music in it specifically because you have such a unique talent and voice and gift for songwriting that people need to hear it.

642
00:54:16,986 --> 00:54:18,106
Even with all my sad songs.

643
00:54:18,326 --> 00:54:24,086
Even with all the sad songs, which you need sad songs. You got to process your emotions, man. You got to be sad sometimes.

644
00:54:24,086 --> 00:54:29,946
But, you know, and it doesn't matter if it's like, you know, the sad songs are cleansing, man, but they're not all sad.

645
00:54:30,126 --> 00:54:31,966
OK, there's there's, you know, the Jetsons.

646
00:54:32,086 --> 00:54:33,806
They're just they're good music.

647
00:54:33,806 --> 00:54:37,446
And I know I'm a sucker for like one of your favorite artists, Jason Isbell, too.

648
00:54:37,526 --> 00:54:40,346
I mean, like imagine a world without Jason Isbell in it.

649
00:54:40,546 --> 00:54:45,426
And the only difference between you and Jason Isbell is that you're just not a household name.

650
00:54:45,506 --> 00:54:47,886
You're just like anybody who knows music knows Jason Isbell.

651
00:54:48,006 --> 00:54:50,466
Right. OK, we can agree on that.

652
00:54:50,466 --> 00:54:54,326
But, you know, this isn't a world where anybody is going to be a household name anymore.

653
00:54:54,506 --> 00:54:56,686
You know, this is that we have fractured.

654
00:54:56,786 --> 00:54:59,826
There was a time when I grew up, I kid you not, Joe.

655
00:54:59,966 --> 00:55:01,206
I'm going to date myself again.

656
00:55:01,466 --> 00:55:13,326
But when Thriller came out from Michael Jackson, that was like the biggest shared cultural moment in the United States because it was going to debut on network TV at a certain time.

657
00:55:13,326 --> 00:55:19,286
And I kid you not, Joe, in my house, we like had to have dinner and dishes done.

658
00:55:19,286 --> 00:55:24,226
and everybody gathered around the TV because you couldn't freeze it. You couldn't pause it. Like,

659
00:55:24,326 --> 00:55:31,406
if you wanted to see Thriller come out, I lived through this moment, Joe, from the 1900s. But I

660
00:55:31,448 --> 00:55:35,868
This was a big deal in my childhood, the day that thriller hit the television.

661
00:55:36,528 --> 00:55:41,828
And, you know, if you missed it, you missed, you know, like you you didn't want to miss that.

662
00:55:41,888 --> 00:55:48,608
Right. And of course, you know, over time now, a lot of these things like you could you could watch Purple Rain on the Internet Archive.

663
00:55:48,608 --> 00:55:54,388
I mean, like these are classic moments, but we actually had to live them, you know, live.

664
00:55:54,508 --> 00:55:58,568
And now it's like, OK, well, if I miss Joe's show, I could probably catch the recording later.

665
00:55:58,568 --> 00:56:08,008
And like that appointment to sit down and catch that cultural moment, it doesn't exist anymore. We're not all consuming the same thing at the same time like we used to.

666
00:56:08,008 --> 00:56:28,828
I think that that's a massively understated thing that you just said there. The asynchronous medium now, you know, everyone's not sharing those moments together in the same way that they were. And yeah, like you say, everyone can be in their own world, listening to their own podcast music on their own time. And it has fractured everything.

667
00:56:28,828 --> 00:56:43,368
But I think that's why these big festivals are so popular, maybe even more now than ever, because people want that sense of being in a big crowd, being part of something bigger that they're experiencing together.

668
00:56:45,048 --> 00:56:47,308
Festivals and stadium gigs as well.

669
00:56:47,308 --> 00:56:55,908
I'm always baffled by people that will pay 250 300 pounds to go to a stadium to like not be able

670
00:56:55,908 --> 00:57:00,248
to see the artist because they're a speck in the distance and they're watching them on the big

671
00:57:00,248 --> 00:57:06,588
screen and and then when you know when a great band is playing down the street for 15 pounds 20

672
00:57:06,588 --> 00:57:12,328
pounds they won't pay to go and watch them up close yeah I think sometimes it's like maybe it's

673
00:57:12,328 --> 00:57:18,128
something to do with with this go ahead sorry go on sometimes you just don't know what's going on

674
00:57:18,128 --> 00:57:22,808
you know like you don't know that there's like yeah i got walked into an open mic night by accident

675
00:57:22,808 --> 00:57:27,548
last weekend and that was it was like it was awesome it was people doing slam poetry and i

676
00:57:27,548 --> 00:57:32,668
was like holy shit i had no idea this was happening like nobody how do i know what's going on anymore

677
00:57:32,668 --> 00:57:36,228
and it's it's like how would i have known that this is going on did i need to be on the mailing

678
00:57:36,228 --> 00:57:41,468
list uh would i have known if i were following one of the like 30 you know events in phoenix

679
00:57:41,468 --> 00:57:46,888
tiktoks that i follow and then i don't get them in my feed because tiktok changes the feed so even

680
00:57:46,888 --> 00:57:50,308
though i followed them i don't get to see it anymore how much how was i supposed to know like

681
00:57:50,308 --> 00:57:54,668
this dope slam poetry night was happening at this this place i just kind of like walked into it

682
00:57:54,668 --> 00:57:59,748
like here's a guy on stage who's absolutely eviscerating trump and this is awesome and

683
00:57:59,748 --> 00:58:03,788
people are going crazy and it's a it's a room full of live you know entertainment i'm like

684
00:58:03,788 --> 00:58:08,408
i i should have known about i would have gotten here on time but like this is amazing yeah like

685
00:58:08,408 --> 00:58:19,128
People don't, how do we, how do we get to a place where we actually can, can break through and get it to, you know, get people to like know one, the event is happening.

686
00:58:19,468 --> 00:58:20,708
You know, Joe's doing a show.

687
00:58:20,868 --> 00:58:21,808
You got to go to Joe's show.

688
00:58:21,888 --> 00:58:25,388
Like, I think we went through this in Nashville when you guys were doing songwriter rounds.

689
00:58:25,388 --> 00:58:28,248
Like, we worked really hard to publicize that show.

690
00:58:28,248 --> 00:58:31,468
And like, we could have fit, you know, a hundred more people in that room.

691
00:58:31,488 --> 00:58:32,408
But it's like, where are they?

692
00:58:32,648 --> 00:58:33,488
Do they not know about this?

693
00:58:33,528 --> 00:58:34,148
It's Nashville.

694
00:58:34,408 --> 00:58:34,688
Okay.

695
00:58:35,068 --> 00:58:36,908
There's a little competition in Nashville.

696
00:58:37,428 --> 00:58:37,508
Yeah.

697
00:58:37,508 --> 00:58:42,748
it's hard to i forget what night of the week we did that is true but yeah yeah like we how do we

698
00:58:42,748 --> 00:58:48,588
even like get people to show up anymore i don't know i'm i'm hoping that like we've reached peak

699
00:58:48,588 --> 00:58:53,328
centralized things in general and like people wanting to know what's going on at the other

700
00:58:53,328 --> 00:58:59,088
side of the world because they can just look at x or whatever i hope that you know the younger

701
00:58:59,088 --> 00:59:04,948
generations as well are going to like swing back to more local things and in this space anyway we're

702
00:59:04,948 --> 00:59:09,548
always talking about support your local butcher support your local rancher support your local

703
00:59:09,548 --> 00:59:15,048
whatever like support your local artists as well because there's a great art going on in in your

704
00:59:15,048 --> 00:59:19,768
town that's probably right under your nose like you said that isn't expensive to go to and you

705
00:59:19,768 --> 00:59:25,988
know you'll be out there like actually with people rather than than doom scrolling yeah maybe i could

706
00:59:25,988 --> 00:59:30,748
take some of that advice as well some of my own advice but we used to say this a lot i don't know

707
00:59:30,748 --> 00:59:59,528
In Wichita. We used to say in Wichita, Wichita is like the most populated part of Kansas. And people don't know that because they think it's Kansas City, right? And these things are four hours apart on the map. But we used to say this in Wichita a lot. Support your local anything. Support it, whatever it is. And so like Wichita was really adamant about buy local, support local before you go to Amazon, Walmart, etc. And this is a whole community kind of like upheld this support your local anything ethos, right?

708
00:59:59,528 --> 01:00:02,608
so that I get now I'm in a big city, 5 million people.

709
01:00:02,848 --> 01:00:04,408
Like, it's harder to support local.

710
01:00:04,568 --> 01:00:06,308
And this is a very spread out city too.

711
01:00:06,488 --> 01:00:07,868
This is not like New York City.

712
01:00:07,948 --> 01:00:09,308
This is just a massive...

713
01:00:09,308 --> 01:00:13,088
I have to work to support local where I live.

714
01:00:13,448 --> 01:00:16,388
Whereas in Wichita, it was just, you know, an arm's length away.

715
01:00:16,388 --> 01:00:18,348
Yeah, I guess it's easier said than done

716
01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:22,408
because the burden lands on the individual

717
01:00:22,408 --> 01:00:24,808
to go out of their way to seek out local stuff

718
01:00:24,808 --> 01:00:26,248
that might not be promoted as well

719
01:00:26,248 --> 01:00:28,588
as the budget that the stadium has, you know,

720
01:00:28,588 --> 01:00:32,948
you know at the other side of town with all the billboards they're paying for that's in everyone's

721
01:00:32,948 --> 01:00:36,928
faces you know everyone knows Ed Sheeran's coming to town or whatever because they see it everywhere

722
01:00:36,928 --> 01:00:42,848
you know on all the buses and all the underground but yeah so it's kind of it's a similar thing to

723
01:00:42,848 --> 01:00:50,148
to people seeking out genuine like genuinely good like underground music like where do they look for

724
01:00:50,148 --> 01:00:56,328
it because now everyone's just used to being fed with the algorithm what to listen to we don't work

725
01:00:56,328 --> 01:01:02,448
for it anymore. I think we're just, yeah, we're kind of paralyzed in a way by too much choice,

726
01:01:02,448 --> 01:01:10,068
if that's possible. Because imagine walking into a supermarket with every type of food

727
01:01:10,068 --> 01:01:15,248
in the whole world and every ingredient in the whole world and someone saying,

728
01:01:15,388 --> 01:01:20,488
what do you want for dinner? You wouldn't know. You could have anything. You could have anything

729
01:01:20,488 --> 01:01:24,808
you wanted. But if you walk into a shop and it's got three items, you know what you can make with

730
01:01:24,808 --> 01:01:29,648
those three items i don't know i'm not i'm not advocating for less choice i think choice choice

731
01:01:29,648 --> 01:01:34,248
is a good thing it's just kind of uh it's it's hard to uh make yourself heard through the noise

732
01:01:34,248 --> 01:01:45,593
these days yeah for sure i an advocate for you know the name of the podcast is radio detox you know detoxing off of the big tech system the fiat system Like you know I was part of this problem

733
01:01:45,733 --> 01:01:50,493
I was part of how we got here because I started working in radio in the late 90s, you know, started.

734
01:01:50,673 --> 01:01:53,073
I survived all of that corporate consolidation.

735
01:01:53,513 --> 01:01:55,253
You know, I worked for what is now iHeart.

736
01:01:55,353 --> 01:01:56,793
It was it was Clear Channel back then.

737
01:01:56,833 --> 01:01:57,893
Before that, it was J-Core.

738
01:01:57,973 --> 01:01:59,353
And I think before that, it was like CBS.

739
01:01:59,353 --> 01:02:04,293
Like the big company just keeps in and keeps buying the little company and Live Nation.

740
01:02:04,293 --> 01:02:06,833
Like big companies, they are too big to fail.

741
01:02:07,733 --> 01:02:09,933
They keep swallowing up the little guys.

742
01:02:10,233 --> 01:02:16,973
And the little guys have no choice because at some point the business bottoms out because people get used to, I can buy everything on Amazon.

743
01:02:17,273 --> 01:02:22,273
Like we have to become stewards of kind of what we're doing here and get people out of the homogeneity.

744
01:02:22,773 --> 01:02:32,733
You know, and that's why I do radio detox is to get people out of the experience of like, well, I may not zap five bucks to Joe Martin today.

745
01:02:32,733 --> 01:02:40,473
but I'm going to spend $700 on Taylor Swift tickets and travel and hotel and getting the outfit together.

746
01:02:40,773 --> 01:02:44,533
And, you know, like to me, that doesn't like go you if that's your thing. Right.

747
01:02:44,593 --> 01:02:49,373
You know, like nothing against Taylor Swift. I'll listen to her music every once in a great while.

748
01:02:49,373 --> 01:02:56,493
You know, but I find personally more value out of Joe Martin's music just because to me, you're a real singer songwriter.

749
01:02:56,673 --> 01:03:01,133
No knock on her. But when I think of singer songwriter music, I think of Joe Martin music.

750
01:03:01,133 --> 01:03:02,193
Like I think of Jason Isbell.

751
01:03:02,273 --> 01:03:03,233
I don't think of Taylor Swift.

752
01:03:03,353 --> 01:03:04,733
I think of Taylor Swift as pop.

753
01:03:04,933 --> 01:03:07,973
Crowd pleasing to like, you know, every common denominator.

754
01:03:08,473 --> 01:03:11,693
Everyone knows who she is and they will spend a ton of money to go see her.

755
01:03:11,793 --> 01:03:21,873
But like what is the – we have such a disconnect in the culture of where like, you know, I'd rather spend my money going to the like open mic night of slam poetry, you know.

756
01:03:21,873 --> 01:03:29,173
And I'd rather support somebody who's willing to like entertain a group of strangers in a small bar on a Friday night.

757
01:03:29,173 --> 01:03:51,673
Like, to me, it's like I've got to actively take an interest in creating this alternative universe where, OK, I can go see a small band here in Phoenix at the Rebel Lounge or I can go to a small venue or I can just be surprised because I went somewhere, you know, close to home on a Friday night and got surprised by some great entertainment that I didn't expect.

758
01:03:51,673 --> 01:03:58,093
Like, you know, the more we kind of create a movement where we're creating these spaces where, yeah, there's a night in Nashville.

759
01:03:58,093 --> 01:04:01,773
You can see Joe Martin and Ainsley Costello do songwriter rounds.

760
01:04:01,853 --> 01:04:05,333
And we also had to kind of train the audience about what songwriter rounds are.

761
01:04:05,433 --> 01:04:09,493
Like, hey, this isn't like a bar on a Friday night where you're going to talk through the performance.

762
01:04:09,793 --> 01:04:12,493
Like, they're here to debut new material and go back and forth.

763
01:04:12,573 --> 01:04:14,453
Like, this is a cultural thing in Nashville.

764
01:04:14,713 --> 01:04:16,213
Like, somebody explained it to me.

765
01:04:16,273 --> 01:04:19,713
And then we're like, OK, so now we have to explain this to the audience and what we're doing.

766
01:04:19,713 --> 01:04:31,653
And, you know, it's not about going to the stadium show and being like that means having that mainstream lifestyle and being that mainstream person who's like, yeah, I'm just going to go to like the biggest concert that comes to town.

767
01:04:31,773 --> 01:04:33,933
And that's going to be entertainment to me.

768
01:04:34,013 --> 01:04:41,653
Like, please, like if you're listening to this, like stay open to the fact that there's probably an honestly amazing musician in your town.

769
01:04:41,653 --> 01:04:56,233
You could probably go see this weekend and spend a little less, but more of your money is going to go directly to that artist, probably to the small venue, to the small business, the independent place where you went to see the show.

770
01:04:56,593 --> 01:04:58,693
Like, it's a better use of funds.

771
01:04:58,853 --> 01:05:09,813
To me, it's like a non-toxic way to use my money rather than give it, you know, I hate it when I have to, like, log into Live Nation because I do want to, I'd still, I want to go see some of these artists.

772
01:05:09,813 --> 01:05:14,473
Just, you know, like I'm still going to buy some of those tickets to some of those shows or venues or whatever.

773
01:05:14,813 --> 01:05:17,213
And then I get sucked back into like the Ticketmaster app.

774
01:05:17,333 --> 01:05:19,413
And then I'm sucked into the Ticketmaster wheel.

775
01:05:19,513 --> 01:05:23,253
Now I get like Ticketmaster travel emails and stuff.

776
01:05:23,253 --> 01:05:28,113
So like I just continue to kind of be the product every time I deal with Ticketmaster.

777
01:05:28,453 --> 01:05:37,113
Like they keep selling me over and over again to, you know, whatever Ticketmaster travel is involved with, whether it's Marriott or whatever the fuck it is.

778
01:05:37,113 --> 01:05:41,433
It's just, it's, it's, you become part of this endless system where you're the product.

779
01:05:41,433 --> 01:05:48,313
Whereas like with what we're doing with Bitcoin, Nostra, Found, Wave, like independent music,

780
01:05:48,313 --> 01:05:50,313
being able to make, you know, some independent money.

781
01:05:50,313 --> 01:05:53,273
It's like, okay, it does require a little more effort on my part.

782
01:05:53,573 --> 01:05:54,433
It does.

783
01:05:54,533 --> 01:05:59,273
It's going to require, you know, curating a Nostra feed so I can just get like music stuff

784
01:05:59,273 --> 01:06:02,613
in my feed and, and, and not whatever else is out there.

785
01:06:02,613 --> 01:06:08,513
And, you know, it's going to take a little bit of effort to, I guess, learn the system.

786
01:06:08,613 --> 01:06:09,453
But you're right.

787
01:06:09,793 --> 01:06:11,533
People shouldn't have to learn a whole bunch of stuff.

788
01:06:11,633 --> 01:06:12,453
It should just work.

789
01:06:12,513 --> 01:06:13,453
It should just be easy.

790
01:06:13,893 --> 01:06:19,253
There shouldn't have to be a discussion about what's Bitcoin, what's a wallet, what is lightning.

791
01:06:19,753 --> 01:06:22,973
You know, like that's where I think we, you know, you're definitely right.

792
01:06:22,973 --> 01:06:25,493
We made things too complicated over the last couple of years.

793
01:06:25,573 --> 01:06:32,273
And now I'm trying to, like, you know, pull back on the messaging and clean it up for people so they can kind of really, I guess,

794
01:06:32,273 --> 01:06:36,453
hear what we're trying to do. And I think when people are listening to you for sure, like they're

795
01:06:36,453 --> 01:06:41,613
going to be like, oh, here's a legit musician who's like put in the proof of work, who actually

796
01:06:41,613 --> 01:06:47,833
wants this to work. I think people should, that should pique their curiosity, you know, especially

797
01:06:47,833 --> 01:06:52,993
you're obviously awesome. Your music's obviously awesome. And, you know, you haven't gone anywhere.

798
01:06:52,993 --> 01:06:56,753
Like you haven't given up on us yet. You know, thank you. Thank you for staying around, Joe.

799
01:06:56,753 --> 01:07:02,773
hey i'm in it now i want to see i want to see how it how it all turns out yeah i don't know what the

800
01:07:02,773 --> 01:07:09,173
answer is really i think the um it's abstracting away the complexities it's always getting less

801
01:07:09,173 --> 01:07:14,033
complex which is good i mean nos is kind of giving us so much more choice because well it

802
01:07:14,033 --> 01:07:18,553
looks that way it's very simple at its foundations but it looks like there's a million clients

803
01:07:18,553 --> 01:07:25,913
blooming which is great but uh it's yeah it's i don't know what how it's going to look but i think

804
01:07:25,913 --> 01:07:28,973
it'll get ironed out in the end

805
01:07:28,973 --> 01:07:30,973
and yeah

806
01:07:30,973 --> 01:07:32,793
it's going to be exciting

807
01:07:32,793 --> 01:07:34,953
to see, to take its final form

808
01:07:34,953 --> 01:07:35,673
whatever that will be

809
01:07:35,673 --> 01:07:39,413
sometimes being too early

810
01:07:39,413 --> 01:07:40,973
being too early

811
01:07:40,973 --> 01:07:41,913
feels like being wrong

812
01:07:41,913 --> 01:07:52,958
so at the moment it like are we wrong about this I don know I don think so because the principles if you just look at it from first principles it all makes sense as why it should work But yeah I don know

813
01:07:53,578 --> 01:07:58,598
Yeah, we're definitely a first principles thinking kind of zone. I think it's one of those things

814
01:07:58,598 --> 01:08:02,938
where I think we realized pretty quickly that this was going to take a long time. And I think

815
01:08:02,938 --> 01:08:06,758
we were two years ago, I was like, this could take off at any moment. And then you kind of like

816
01:08:06,758 --> 01:08:11,258
expect that. And then you start talking. The more people you talk to, the more you realize it's not

817
01:08:11,258 --> 01:08:16,758
going to take off at any moment. It's going to be a slow burn until maybe it is just a small

818
01:08:16,758 --> 01:08:21,238
community of people who go, OK, we're just all kind of doing this our own way. It's still very

819
01:08:21,238 --> 01:08:26,518
democratic because you can build an app if you want. I mean, Julie Costello built the Epic Music

820
01:08:26,518 --> 01:08:31,838
app, which actually takes fiat payments, believe it or not. Like she went, you know what? This is

821
01:08:31,838 --> 01:08:37,038
great. We've talked to normies so much, you know, the uninitiated, the people who are not yet

822
01:08:37,038 --> 01:08:40,898
Bitcoiners or who may never be. I mean, it shouldn't be a sticking point. Like we shouldn't

823
01:08:40,898 --> 01:08:46,818
have to turn people into Bitcoiners. We shouldn't have to turn people into sovereign individuals who

824
01:08:46,818 --> 01:08:50,398
build their own node and build their own server. Like, that's not what we're trying to do here.

825
01:08:50,518 --> 01:08:56,278
We're just, we're, I'm here anyway, for the musicians and any content creator who is going

826
01:08:56,278 --> 01:09:01,718
to want to do this and have a way to reach an audience and have a way to get paid directly for

827
01:09:01,718 --> 01:09:06,738
it. Because, you know, as somebody who's been a creative person, you know, making stuff on the

828
01:09:06,738 --> 01:09:12,138
internet for a very long time, like there should be a way, you know, for you to do that. And like,

829
01:09:12,198 --> 01:09:17,298
okay, I'll make a Patreon. I'll make a sub stack. Okay. But then we get back to the de-platforming,

830
01:09:17,438 --> 01:09:22,498
like what happened to your friend where one day you wake up and everything that you worked hard

831
01:09:22,498 --> 01:09:26,758
for was deleted because you built it on somebody's backyard and they have the control over you.

832
01:09:26,758 --> 01:09:31,498
They have the control over your ability to make money and career. We see this over and over in

833
01:09:31,498 --> 01:09:36,918
space and like I've had bad experiences and you find a lot of people who are Bitcoiners and who

834
01:09:36,918 --> 01:09:42,678
are on Noster and who are you know podcasting here rather than there you see a lot of us can say like

835
01:09:42,678 --> 01:09:49,978
oh we had a bank account shut down or oh we were deplatformed or both like both things have happened

836
01:09:49,978 --> 01:09:55,638
like over and over and then those are the people who come in here because it's happened to us or

837
01:09:55,638 --> 01:10:01,038
people like yourself who are like wow I found success and I found a community here yeah I don't

838
01:10:01,038 --> 01:10:05,858
think it should people shouldn't want to come to it because they've got nowhere else to go or

839
01:10:05,858 --> 01:10:10,698
they've been deplatformed from everywhere else i don't think that's a good a good measure i think

840
01:10:10,698 --> 01:10:16,838
people should come to it because it is genuinely better but i think what would be kind of left of

841
01:10:16,838 --> 01:10:22,058
field and but they would have definitely have the resources to make it accelerate this whole thing

842
01:10:22,058 --> 01:10:28,238
would be jack dorsey's title teamed with the cash app because i mean the cash app yeah is already

843
01:10:28,238 --> 01:10:34,198
lighting native so they could have a way nostal wallet connect or something to connect the lightning

844
01:10:34,198 --> 01:10:40,938
wallet and cash app with the title account um and then just generate you know lightning addresses

845
01:10:40,938 --> 01:10:47,478
for all the people on title um and stream saps from cash app or whatever um and it'll probably

846
01:10:47,478 --> 01:10:51,898
work out cheaper than a spotify subscription and every other kind of subscription because you'll

847
01:10:51,898 --> 01:10:55,758
be paying as you listen you'd be paying for what you use i mean that like something like that would

848
01:10:55,758 --> 01:11:01,718
be so huge but it would take you know big company like that to really get behind it and yeah we

849
01:11:01,718 --> 01:11:06,938
really i i think that that's like that's the way you describe it it's so possible like we have the

850
01:11:06,938 --> 01:11:12,518
technology like that's the kind of thing to where you know i think people know that jack's a bitcoiner

851
01:11:12,518 --> 01:11:17,778
you know that wouldn't be shocking to the world whereas like if spotify did that it would be like

852
01:11:17,778 --> 01:11:22,358
people be like oh you know all the mainstream people be like bitcoin oh you know the clutching

853
01:11:22,358 --> 01:11:28,278
of the pearls would begin but that that that would be i like we have the technology why don't

854
01:11:28,278 --> 01:11:32,218
we just use it like we can just build the bridge why don't we just build the bridge you know that's

855
01:11:32,218 --> 01:11:36,678
that's of course it takes time and effort but not as much as it used to no it'll get easier i think

856
01:11:36,678 --> 01:11:41,858
i think jack's got a lot more to deal with than than that at the moment so a lot on his plate so

857
01:11:41,858 --> 01:11:47,178
yeah he keeps making the news pretty recently well thank you joe for talking to me today i think it

858
01:11:47,178 --> 01:11:53,078
was an important conversation to have to kind of like pick your brain and kind of like see see where

859
01:11:53,078 --> 01:11:57,798
you're at you're one of i think the top artists in the space one of the most well-known and and

860
01:11:57,798 --> 01:12:03,398
putting out new music and continuing to show up i mean that's that says a lot yeah i mean like i

861
01:12:03,398 --> 01:12:08,818
truly believe in the movement and and this tech and and the promises it can bring eventually you

862
01:12:08,818 --> 01:12:15,338
can get jaded sometimes because you know it just feels like it's taking a long time to be picked up

863
01:12:15,338 --> 01:12:20,938
and I haven't really had much luck getting anyone to take a serious look at it in a way.

864
01:12:21,278 --> 01:12:26,198
I mean, I had a few artists that came across because I did a fountain radio takeover

865
01:12:26,198 --> 01:12:31,418
and basically I just DM'd a load of my friends and said,

866
01:12:31,498 --> 01:12:32,998
hey, I'm doing this radio show.

867
01:12:33,298 --> 01:12:34,498
I'd like to play your song.

868
01:12:34,738 --> 01:12:37,938
You can get paid for it, but you need to go and upload your music here.

869
01:12:38,238 --> 01:12:39,958
And they all did, you know.

870
01:12:40,638 --> 01:12:40,918
Yeah.

871
01:12:40,918 --> 01:12:45,138
And I've since sent them some sats myself just listening to their songs

872
01:12:45,138 --> 01:12:46,958
because I love them as artists as well as friends.

873
01:12:47,118 --> 01:12:49,138
And I don't know if they've done anything with that,

874
01:12:49,438 --> 01:12:51,418
but they're now in the ecosystem.

875
01:12:51,798 --> 01:12:53,078
But again, they're not engaging

876
01:12:53,078 --> 01:12:55,578
because it's a chicken and egg problem, I think,

877
01:12:55,778 --> 01:12:59,118
of getting, you need the audiences to get the artists.

878
01:12:59,238 --> 01:13:00,658
You need the artists there to get the audiences.

879
01:13:00,898 --> 01:13:02,178
It's a catch-22 sort of thing.

880
01:13:02,618 --> 01:13:05,298
But I hope I haven't been too doomerish on this podcast.

881
01:13:05,298 --> 01:13:05,878
No, I don't think so.

882
01:13:05,938 --> 01:13:07,778
Well, you know, I think we need to go in this direction.

883
01:13:08,058 --> 01:13:08,798
I'm still bullish on it all.

884
01:13:09,038 --> 01:13:10,798
It's just going to take time.

885
01:13:10,798 --> 01:13:11,078
Same.

886
01:13:11,458 --> 01:13:14,618
I think the conversation probably two years ago was like,

887
01:13:14,618 --> 01:13:18,738
oh yeah let's fucking go this is great you know we got this we're gonna we're gonna do like where

888
01:13:18,738 --> 01:13:23,218
are you come do this thing and i think that there may have been some smoke and mirrors over the

889
01:13:23,218 --> 01:13:28,558
years i think there may have been like too much rose colored glasses over the years i think we

890
01:13:28,558 --> 01:13:33,138
need to kind of like take it down and go hey let's talk to the artists let's talk to fans let's see

891
01:13:33,138 --> 01:13:38,538
what people really want here and let's be realistic about you know this is not going to replace an

892
01:13:38,538 --> 01:13:43,778
income yet i think that's where everybody wants it to go certainly the artists deserve that i think

893
01:13:43,778 --> 01:13:46,678
Like, we need to be like, hey, this is an alternate route.

894
01:13:46,898 --> 01:13:47,978
It's an augmentation.

895
01:13:48,818 --> 01:14:02,763
It is another route to find discovery find fans It another route to bring artists and fans together It probably I be honest probably not ready for prime time yet But I mean we are so close because I think

896
01:14:02,763 --> 01:14:09,023
we are hitting a tipping point where the consumer public is like, hey, we're kind of tired of a lot

897
01:14:09,023 --> 01:14:13,643
of shit. And then we're over here like, hey, we're building the thing to get you off of this shit,

898
01:14:13,943 --> 01:14:19,323
or at least augment your entertainment to make it feel better so that you don't feel like you're

899
01:14:19,323 --> 01:14:22,683
giving all your money to a big corporation while an artist makes none.

900
01:14:22,803 --> 01:14:25,143
Like, I think the morals and the ethics are there.

901
01:14:25,243 --> 01:14:26,383
Like, the public has that.

902
01:14:26,463 --> 01:14:28,723
They have the desire for something different.

903
01:14:29,023 --> 01:14:30,643
And then we have the something different.

904
01:14:30,903 --> 01:14:32,863
We just have to make it more desirable for them.

905
01:14:32,863 --> 01:14:35,883
And when these two things do finally converge and meet,

906
01:14:35,983 --> 01:14:39,543
or, hey, when Taylor Swift finally puts her music on Fountain,

907
01:14:40,003 --> 01:14:42,403
you know, like something has to happen here.

908
01:14:42,763 --> 01:14:46,223
But I think it's just we have two separate camps where, okay,

909
01:14:46,683 --> 01:14:48,403
everyone's bitching about the problem,

910
01:14:48,403 --> 01:14:50,623
And then we have people who like have the solution.

911
01:14:50,623 --> 01:14:59,503
So we just have to bring them together and have them kind of coexist in a way that is appealing to everybody.

912
01:15:00,143 --> 01:15:04,923
Meaning like what you said earlier, it has to be easy and it has to actually pay off for everybody.

913
01:15:05,063 --> 01:15:15,003
And I think once it's a win-win for everybody, because it's easy and it's fun and I feel like I'm getting more Joe Martin music in my life and I'm getting more independent music in my life.

914
01:15:15,003 --> 01:15:22,003
while also not losing the fact that like, hey, maybe I do want to listen to that new Luke Combs album and that new Fray album,

915
01:15:22,003 --> 01:15:23,363
which I do when I listen to those.

916
01:15:23,463 --> 01:15:30,003
And then I go, OK, well, now I want to go like back to my happy world where I want to listen to some Bitcoin podcasts

917
01:15:30,663 --> 01:15:35,183
and interact with what's become my community that I directly interact with.

918
01:15:35,203 --> 01:15:36,923
And I do want to listen to Joe's new song.

919
01:15:37,483 --> 01:15:41,303
And then I'll, yes, get on YouTube and watch Joe's new music video.

920
01:15:41,303 --> 01:15:48,383
And it's just kind of the lines blur for me because I can still I can be in two worlds and I know how the two worlds work.

921
01:15:48,923 --> 01:15:52,803
And I just know that it's better in the long run for me to make the new world work for everybody.

922
01:15:53,083 --> 01:15:59,963
Now that I spent decades screwing things up in the old world, like let me come detox off of that, deconstruct that.

923
01:16:00,263 --> 01:16:05,443
That's kind of where on. That's my thoughts. I'm glad we got to just kind of like talk shop today.

924
01:16:05,443 --> 01:16:12,783
Amen. Well, thank you for being so supportive of my music and championing my music. I really

925
01:16:12,783 --> 01:16:17,303
appreciate it, Heather. Yeah, like I say, the album's coming out in a few short weeks. I

926
01:16:17,303 --> 01:16:23,723
trekked to Nashville and Texas to make it happen. And I'm really proud of this album. I worked with

927
01:16:23,723 --> 01:16:28,683
such incredible people. I was so fortunate to work with the people I did on this. It's been the album

928
01:16:28,683 --> 01:16:34,063
I've wanted to make all my life and I hope people enjoy it. And if you do, you can zap me some stats

929
01:16:34,063 --> 01:16:36,443
if you like it, listen to it where you get your music.

930
01:16:36,723 --> 01:16:38,703
I have a lot of vinyl to sell and CDs,

931
01:16:38,863 --> 01:16:41,183
so if physical is your thing,

932
01:16:41,303 --> 01:16:45,063
then you can buy a copy from Shopster

933
01:16:45,063 --> 01:16:47,843
and take my sats, I think it's called,

934
01:16:48,023 --> 01:16:50,163
and just the website, joemartymusic.com.

935
01:16:50,363 --> 01:16:52,723
So yeah, I appreciate all the support.

936
01:16:52,983 --> 01:16:55,083
Every zap keeps you going.

937
01:16:55,283 --> 01:16:57,743
Thanks to everyone that's been with me on this journey

938
01:16:57,743 --> 01:16:59,443
and continues to support.

939
01:16:59,843 --> 01:17:00,463
Appreciate it.

940
01:17:04,063 --> 01:17:11,183
Spent Kodak camera roll

941
01:17:11,183 --> 01:17:15,123
Ain't a mile's worth of telephone poles

942
01:17:15,123 --> 01:17:18,543
Dirt track don't know where it goes

943
01:17:18,543 --> 01:17:21,103
But we're going to find out

944
01:17:21,103 --> 01:17:25,863
Finting map up on the dash

945
01:17:25,863 --> 01:17:29,563
Making memories made to last

946
01:17:29,563 --> 01:17:35,003
If I had me one last wish, I would be this

947
01:17:35,003 --> 01:17:40,243
Would you be my backseat driver, baby?

948
01:17:40,403 --> 01:17:42,503
Tell me which way to go

949
01:17:42,503 --> 01:17:46,943
You could gaze all night through the sunroof

950
01:17:46,943 --> 01:17:49,723
Counting the stars as they glow

951
01:17:49,723 --> 01:17:54,903
Well, I've climbed the highs, I've seen the skies

952
01:17:54,903 --> 01:17:57,503
Nearly every shade of blue

953
01:17:57,503 --> 01:18:04,283
But my best adventures, they all start with you

954
01:18:04,283 --> 01:18:09,323
The valleys brought us close together

955
01:18:09,323 --> 01:18:12,963
Loving our hearts running like a river

956
01:18:12,963 --> 01:18:16,543
In the mountain air went to our heads

957
01:18:16,543 --> 01:18:18,803
And we got married in the spring

958
01:18:18,803 --> 01:18:23,883
That desert sunset, I'll never forget

959
01:18:23,883 --> 01:18:26,763
The way you looked in that light

960
01:18:26,763 --> 01:18:33,963
When the night time comes and we're all alone is when you show me that you're mine

961
01:18:33,963 --> 01:18:40,663
Could you be my backseat driver, baby, tell me which way to go

962
01:18:40,663 --> 01:18:47,963
We could gaze all night through the sunroof, counting the stars as they glow

963
01:18:47,963 --> 01:18:55,623
I've been to the end of continents, living cities old and new

964
01:18:55,623 --> 01:19:02,243
But my best adventures, they all start with you

965
01:19:02,243 --> 01:19:18,383
Will you be my backseat driver, baby?

966
01:19:18,543 --> 01:19:20,683
Tell me which way to go

967
01:19:20,683 --> 01:19:25,123
We could gaze all night through the sunroof

968
01:19:25,123 --> 01:19:27,943
Counting the stars as they glow

969
01:19:27,943 --> 01:19:31,123
I've been some crazy places

970
01:19:31,123 --> 01:19:32,923
Seen a million faces

971
01:19:32,923 --> 01:19:35,923
Lived a lifetime enough or two

972
01:19:35,923 --> 01:19:38,363
But my best adventures

973
01:19:38,363 --> 01:19:42,443
They all start with you

974
01:19:42,443 --> 01:19:49,803
They all start with you

975
01:19:49,803 --> 01:19:51,803
Oh, oh, oh, oh