1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,760 Hello, and welcome to 21 and 21. I'm Haley Burko, and today I'm speaking with Alex Gladstein. Alex is the Chief Strategy Officer at the Human's Right Foundation, and a powerful advocate for how Bitcoin can empower people living in authoritarian societies. Alex, it's so great to see you again at Presidio Bitcoin. 2 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,560 I love coming here. Love what you guys are doing here. 3 00:00:21,220 --> 00:00:25,820 Well, I always appreciate an Alex visit. You've been here a few times, so thank you for taking this time. 4 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:26,820 Won't be the last. 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,180 Great. We love that. 6 00:00:28,180 --> 00:00:31,980 I think you've seen this show before, so I'm going to start this clock. 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:32,620 Let's go. 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,620 We're going to get into it. Let's go. 9 00:00:36,540 --> 00:00:42,260 Before you came such a strong voice for Bitcoin, what got you into the human rights space? 10 00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:52,960 So in short world events, I was in high school during 9-11 and the Iraq war, the American invasion of Iraq. 11 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:55,880 And it made me very curious about the world around me. 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:04,200 and I wanted to seek knowledge that would help me interpret and help me understand what was going on. 13 00:01:04,340 --> 00:01:07,780 So I started looking at international relations in college. 14 00:01:08,020 --> 00:01:09,280 I was actually going to go into hard sciences. 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,440 I probably would have ended up like one of these engineers here. 16 00:01:12,340 --> 00:01:15,480 But I went to international relations and Middle Eastern studies 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,040 and I started looking at that part of the world 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,000 and that's what led me to my internship at the Human Rights Foundation 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,800 was looking at civil liberty stuff. 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,560 so really the spark was trying to understand the the wider world around me 21 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:35,980 i guess if you already had an interest in hard science maybe bitcoin was kind of 22 00:01:35,980 --> 00:01:42,960 perfect blend of this equation of all of your interests i mean bitcoin's a mirror i always 23 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:48,600 say that it's reflects back at you what uh what you want to see and it reflects back at me 24 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,060 everything that i want to say all the things i'm interested in i can find it in bitcoin 25 00:01:52,060 --> 00:01:59,080 And yeah, it's been my greatest teacher, I would say, for sure, of any course or college session or seminar. 26 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,100 Bitcoin's taught me the most about the world around me. 27 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,680 So you obviously have done a lot. 28 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:08,840 You do a lot. 29 00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:09,560 You write. 30 00:02:09,740 --> 00:02:10,440 You speak. 31 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:11,780 Travel. 32 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:12,680 You put on events. 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,300 What's some of the things that are most top of mind to you right now? 34 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:43,080 Well, you all did a event here that looked at the intersection between Bitcoin and AI a few months ago. And that's something I'm pretty consumed with, especially the open source AI tool stuff. How can activists use that? So we've started a new program at Ahrefs that seeks to sort of take the blueprint of what we've done with the Bitcoin program, with the financial freedom program, and then do what worked best with AI tools. 35 00:02:43,080 --> 00:03:01,620 So we're going to do two things, kind of like how at the Bitcoin program at HRF, we have a CBDC tracker that tracks the rise of CBDCs all around the world. And we have research that looks at how governments are attacking Bitcoin users. And at the same time, we're just heavily investing in open source Bitcoin work and communities and education around the world. 36 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:07,220 so same thing we're going to expose and track how governments are using ai to repress people 37 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:12,060 but we're also going to heavily heavily invest in and support open source tooling for for activists 38 00:03:12,060 --> 00:03:17,160 so they can scale their work and it's probably the thing i've changed my mind the most on 39 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:23,180 five years ago if you'd asked me i really thought ai was a communist state control thing that was 40 00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:27,880 going to be a disaster for civil liberties and there still is some of that obviously but i'm now 41 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,180 so much more bullish on the impact it's going to have for individual freedom. 42 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:37,180 Well, I was actually going to ask you later on about AI and the intersection with Bitcoin. 43 00:03:37,540 --> 00:03:40,320 So I'm glad that you're thinking about it already. 44 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:44,460 I mean, obviously in San Francisco, AI is like a really hot topic. 45 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:46,060 It's like everywhere you look. 46 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:47,140 But mostly buzzwords. 47 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:48,340 Mostly buzzwords. 48 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,740 But also using it a lot as a tool and work, especially kind of on the creative marketing side. 49 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:56,380 But just in general, like I use AI a lot. 50 00:03:56,380 --> 00:04:01,520 I'm curious if you're seeing human activists using AI too, and if so, how? 51 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,100 Well, I think it started with LLMs, right? 52 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,160 So just helping with research and writing is huge. 53 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:24,360 I mean, just the fact that you can say, because you have to understand that human rights activists and small NGOs spend a lot of their time reporting to donors and filing grant reports and writing grant proposals and interacting with their donor base is a huge chunk of their work. 54 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,820 and if you're a founder who's really focused on street activism or some sort of creative activism 55 00:04:28,820 --> 00:04:33,120 or the thing that you're doing like environmentalism or investigative reporting or labor rights, 56 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,680 whatever it is, it sucks to have to spend all your time raising money and reporting to people. 57 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,000 So the fact that now you can just use a state-of-the-art LLM and just be like, hey, 58 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,660 please scour the web for the work we've done in the last year and use some of these documents too 59 00:04:47,660 --> 00:04:54,120 and write me a 24-page report on our successes. And then you just send that out or, you know, 60 00:04:54,360 --> 00:05:00,240 hey, you know, write a letter that goes to the people who support this foundation that's kind 61 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,180 of like ours. I want it in this tone, in this style, and I want you to help us raise money 62 00:05:05,180 --> 00:05:10,040 with it. And then it's like, it can expand what's possible with a small team by 10x. 63 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,900 And that's just the LLM stuff. I think we're getting to the point where, I mean, 64 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:19,220 keynotes, graphic designs, animations, we're not quite there yet, but you can see that within the 65 00:05:19,220 --> 00:05:22,540 next year, we'll be there. Like right now, the graphic design stuff doesn't, it's still like 66 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:26,380 confused, but like we're going to get there and it's just going to wipe out so much of the tedious 67 00:05:26,380 --> 00:05:30,720 work that activists have to do. And it's going to make it a joy for them to do that. All the vibe 68 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,160 coding stuff is just going to be so huge. I think so. It already is for many. I mean, I've seen 69 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,040 activists that don't know how to code. They're already vibe coding stuff that work in protests 70 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:45,600 to coordinate like things like the bit chat type idea that Jack created. Other people have created 71 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,140 similar things for protests specifically, like already, like in the last two months. So we're 72 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:52,780 excited to be at that intersection of vibe coding for human rights. 73 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:57,900 It is crazy how much you can do, especially as like a less technical person. 74 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:12,655 So it incredible to hear that activists can really use AI in ways that can empower them and their productivity and work and impact So what do you think the ideal role of government is if any 75 00:06:13,475 --> 00:06:14,575 Well, that's quite a question. 76 00:06:15,235 --> 00:06:20,815 Well, for starters, I like government for the people. 77 00:06:20,815 --> 00:06:22,775 I think government should serve its people. 78 00:06:23,755 --> 00:06:29,235 And when you think about the word democracy, like the Greek root, I mean, it's really supposed to be people-powered government. 79 00:06:30,195 --> 00:06:35,795 And that's very different from an oligarchy or a tyranny or any other, you know,ocracy that you can think of, right? 80 00:06:37,115 --> 00:06:38,915 And I think we're on the pathway there. 81 00:06:39,955 --> 00:06:41,095 There's no perfection. 82 00:06:41,775 --> 00:06:43,335 There's nothing even close, right? 83 00:06:43,335 --> 00:06:52,335 But I do think, generally speaking, what we have is in the right direction in a place like America, domestically at least, where you have... 84 00:06:52,775 --> 00:06:56,555 a federal government in charge of certain things. But a lot really needs to be done, 85 00:06:56,615 --> 00:06:59,175 I think, more at the community level, at the local level, at the state level. 86 00:06:59,995 --> 00:07:03,695 So I like the fact that we have that kind of system. It's not great when there's like central 87 00:07:03,695 --> 00:07:08,115 bureaucracy, like in the EU that, you know, is making decisions for all these different people, 88 00:07:08,215 --> 00:07:13,655 all these different cultures. And that's tough. It leads to tough outcomes. So I think local 89 00:07:13,655 --> 00:07:18,535 governance is really important. And I hope to see a world with a lot more local governance. 90 00:07:18,535 --> 00:07:25,455 and you know at the end of the day government is there to to mediate disputes and to help 91 00:07:25,455 --> 00:07:31,955 prevent people inflicting violence on each other and those are two of its most important roles 92 00:07:31,955 --> 00:07:36,995 and and i hope to see a reduction of what the the sort of federal government does 93 00:07:36,995 --> 00:07:42,295 and maybe stronger local government structures so that would be that would be interesting to me 94 00:07:42,295 --> 00:07:51,435 kind of on that topic of you know local government the power of bitcoin and there's just generally 95 00:07:51,435 --> 00:07:57,635 just a lot of narratives around bitcoin and how people get into it um have you seen the human 96 00:07:57,635 --> 00:08:03,155 rights angle kind of shift maybe perspective of people those who are skeptical of bitcoin or 97 00:08:03,155 --> 00:08:09,435 anti-bitcoin yeah for sure but it takes an open mind right it's you know it's like all the 98 00:08:09,435 --> 00:08:13,315 arguments about Bitcoin mining. If you think Bitcoin is useless, of course, it's a waste of 99 00:08:13,315 --> 00:08:17,555 energy. If you don't understand what it does. So I think the work we do in helping explain to people 100 00:08:17,555 --> 00:08:21,195 that it's actually this really revolutionary human rights tool is very important because once you 101 00:08:21,195 --> 00:08:25,255 understand its utility, then you look at things like the power use and the criminality aspects 102 00:08:25,255 --> 00:08:29,355 differently. Once you know it's this thing that's so important and we have to work on it, 103 00:08:29,835 --> 00:08:35,415 then it changes completely the framework of all the other FUD. Like the FUD dice that Nick Carter 104 00:08:35,415 --> 00:08:39,775 once made, you know, has all those things on all the different FUDs. That really changes once you 105 00:08:39,775 --> 00:08:43,775 understand that this thing's of vital importance for civilization. Once you understand that, 106 00:08:43,855 --> 00:08:50,735 then we can have different conversations about mining and energy use and criminality and 107 00:08:50,735 --> 00:08:58,195 volatility and all these other things. So I think ultimately the human rights piece is important, 108 00:08:58,395 --> 00:09:02,915 but people still have to be open to it. There are still so many people in denial who won't even talk 109 00:09:02,915 --> 00:09:07,795 about it. They just, you know, they're like, oh, you're just making this up. There's a heavy, 110 00:09:07,955 --> 00:09:13,235 heavy amount of salt out there. It's really tough, even today still. But we're winning. I mean, 111 00:09:13,355 --> 00:09:17,195 we're getting there. It's like nuclear power. I mean, we're always going to have some deniers. 112 00:09:17,755 --> 00:09:23,655 It just sucks that like 90% of the world is still like full on denial mode or ignorant about it. 113 00:09:23,915 --> 00:09:27,695 I think in the next decade, that's going to change completely, though. And I do think Bitcoin 114 00:09:27,695 --> 00:09:32,555 is going to be driven a lot by activism in the same way that technologies like 115 00:09:32,555 --> 00:09:38,415 PGP and Signal and then even Twitter itself were, you know, one of Twitter's big moments was the 116 00:09:38,415 --> 00:09:42,295 Arab Spring, right? That really turned it from like a micro blogging community in San Francisco 117 00:09:42,295 --> 00:09:47,135 to like a global events thing. That's what Jack said. And I agree. So I think human rights 118 00:09:47,135 --> 00:09:50,995 communities are really going to push Bitcoin too, because they're the ones that really need money 119 00:09:50,995 --> 00:09:56,075 that the government can't control. Yes, it can be hard for people who live in the United States or 120 00:09:56,075 --> 00:10:01,475 countries that have more privileges to see the use case for Bitcoin as much? 121 00:10:01,475 --> 00:10:06,595 We need to check our financial privilege, basically. That's what I think. 122 00:10:06,895 --> 00:10:13,935 Yes. What do you think, like, what's a world on the Bitcoin standard look like to you? 123 00:10:14,955 --> 00:10:20,635 That's a really great question. I think ultimately, as an American, it's a world where 124 00:10:20,635 --> 00:10:26,595 we have more of the best sides of our nature as a country and a society and less of the bad sides 125 00:10:26,595 --> 00:10:32,415 of our nature as a society and as a country. I think that in a Bitcoin standard, people have 126 00:10:32,415 --> 00:10:37,575 more power over their lives, more power over what they can do with their time. 127 00:10:38,355 --> 00:10:42,695 These are huge generalizations, but I do think they're, I believe them to be true, I think. 128 00:10:43,215 --> 00:10:46,815 I think the government will be less wasteful in terms of being able to do things like 129 00:10:46,815 --> 00:10:52,215 expensive foreign wars in places that the average citizen can't name, crazy sort of 130 00:10:52,215 --> 00:10:57,935 militarized policing and industrial prison complexes that the average person doesn't 131 00:10:57,935 --> 00:11:03,655 really want to see. There's a lot of excesses in our current system, war on drugs type stuff, 132 00:11:04,235 --> 00:11:07,995 massive amounts of surveillance. A lot of this is done without consent of the people because 133 00:11:07,995 --> 00:11:14,155 it's been able to be funded by essentially by the national credit card. So if that's not possible 134 00:11:14,155 --> 00:11:20,115 to do anymore, if spending really requires consent of the people, and if you basically 135 00:11:20,115 --> 00:11:25,195 have to tax for it or get them to give you money in the form of bonds, which is how we 136 00:11:25,195 --> 00:11:28,375 used to fund warfare back in the day, and we used to fund all these social programs this 137 00:11:28,375 --> 00:11:36,635 way, then I think we'll have a more collaborative society that's both more prosperous and dynamic 138 00:11:36,635 --> 00:11:38,095 at home, but especially abroad. 139 00:11:38,735 --> 00:11:41,195 I do think if Bitcoin standard is going to completely change the way America interacts 140 00:11:41,195 --> 00:11:43,375 with the rest of the world, and I think in a good way. 141 00:11:43,375 --> 00:11:49,395 I think we have a chance to be a lot more collaborative and less exploitative with the rest of the world. 142 00:11:49,575 --> 00:11:51,755 So I'm super excited about that. 143 00:11:51,835 --> 00:11:58,135 And as far as how does it look like specifically, we could just think about the fact that everybody will earn the same currency. 144 00:11:58,215 --> 00:12:14,630 So you won be able to do this game that companies play today where they pay someone way less in some other country just because they make some other currency No everybody going to earn sats And you may not I don know if we going to be on chain I don know That for a different discussion but I don know if everybody going to be on chain but everybody going to be denominated in sats 145 00:12:14,770 --> 00:12:17,770 I think, obviously, in a Bitcoin standard. So it's a little different than when you, 146 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:23,610 today you have Naira and dollars and pesos and lira and governments can devalue people's time 147 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:27,890 in half because they're on different standards, 180 different standards. Under one standard, 148 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:31,290 that's at least one thing you can't do anymore. You can't just like press a red button and just 149 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:36,750 steal from everybody. If everybody's on sats, the idea of currency devaluation goes away. 150 00:12:37,310 --> 00:12:41,630 The idea of these overnight massive currency devaluations that billions of people have 151 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:46,330 suffered from go away. So Bitcoin standard did not fix everything, but it does address 152 00:12:46,330 --> 00:12:51,250 quite a bit in terms of, I think, fundamental individual human dignity and control over your 153 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:58,730 time and control over the fruit of your labor. So you just said the word sats four times. 154 00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:01,090 Yeah. I'm a sats maximalist. 155 00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:02,170 Okay, your stats, Michael. 156 00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:07,330 Obviously, there's a lot of talk going on about how we speak about the fractions. 157 00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:08,250 Yes, sure. 158 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:09,590 Your team stats? 159 00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:15,690 I mean, I would confess that it's not at my top of my priority list, and I don't mind either way. 160 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:21,650 I would just observe that it's an organic phenomenon, and I don't see any issue with stats. 161 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:29,790 Like, if you look at how the dollar and the dollar system evolved with denominations, you know, it used to just be, 162 00:13:29,790 --> 00:13:33,970 you'd walk into a store and it'd be like one or two or they wouldn't even say what what you know 163 00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:38,730 cents or dollars it's just like a thing and it changed over time so we'll see i don't think it's 164 00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:43,970 one of the biggest priorities not not not an obstacle in my mind like people do not get a 165 00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:47,210 human rights act this is not something that somebody actually gets confused about that i've 166 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:51,330 seen but now maybe other people have different experiences so they know the difference between 167 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:55,890 sats and bitcoin and it's not if you depend on it you learn pretty quickly yeah that like 168 00:13:55,890 --> 00:14:01,290 100 million sats is different from 100 million Bitcoin, which doesn't exist. So yeah, but it's 169 00:14:01,290 --> 00:14:06,610 got to take someone, if someone's actually like using it in their business, or they're sending 170 00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:11,270 money to a friend abroad, they immediately, they'll have to understand, they will learn about 171 00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:16,590 that. It's not that complicated, in my view. Plus, I like honoring Satoshi. So we'll see. 172 00:14:18,610 --> 00:14:24,570 So leaning more into people using Bitcoin as a form of money or just relying on it, 173 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:30,110 What are some of the UX challenges that you've heard from activists in regards to Bitcoin? 174 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:42,390 Well, I mean, going back a few years, the idea of like a Bolt 12 offer or a lightning address was something that was really wanted back in the day, like three, four or five years ago. 175 00:14:42,450 --> 00:14:46,970 We started doing this work with activists, I guess more than that now. 176 00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:49,090 And those exist now, which is super cool. 177 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:51,110 Like the idea of a lightning address is very helpful. 178 00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:58,450 and having alphanumeric bolt 12 really cool 12 cash type stuff if you can rig it up the right way 179 00:14:58,450 --> 00:15:05,090 i think what we need now is more like um you know because bitcoin is like this push system or 180 00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:10,890 whatever so more of something where it's like you're on the internet and you want to donate 181 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:17,790 or buy something you can just have your alphanumeric identity or email or whatever it is 182 00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:25,010 set up in such a way where it can be almost like debited from um that's obviously not what's really 183 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:29,270 happening because bitcoin doesn't really work like that but that it's that it's plugged in in 184 00:15:29,270 --> 00:15:33,290 some way where you don't have to generate do an invoice every time and interact with it like 185 00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:39,270 definitely the invoices have improved a lot since a while ago but the ideal world is one where you're 186 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:45,010 not you can load something in that's some sort of static identity at least that doesn't betray 187 00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:50,550 your secrets that can just be like interacted with by merchants you know so that would be the 188 00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:54,710 next level for me like if we could get there and i know some people have already gotten there in 189 00:15:54,710 --> 00:16:00,110 some ways which is cool uh like using bitcoin admin money is so much easier than it used to be 190 00:16:00,110 --> 00:16:05,090 like whether you strike or cash up on the custodial side or like i'll be on the self-custodial side 191 00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:08,870 and you're like i was just buying something on the internet yesterday with lightning and i was just so 192 00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:14,990 shocked by how easy it was just go to the store through the thing in my uh shopping cart put in 193 00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:21,450 where i wanted to be shipped and then hit pay and then scan the code and it was done and it was just 194 00:16:21,450 --> 00:16:27,070 amazing and and that was not the case five years ago so we've made a lot of strides i think 195 00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:31,290 being money that we can actually use and i think what square is going to do with the 196 00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:35,170 the readers is going to be really interesting like that's going to start to get very exciting 197 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:37,730 and I'm going to be spending a lot of Bitcoin. 198 00:16:37,870 --> 00:16:38,590 Yeah, it's going to be fun. 199 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:40,150 I'm excited for it too. 200 00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,770 So HRF does a lot with funding open source contributors. 201 00:16:47,650 --> 00:16:50,570 What would you say kind of some of the biggest learnings 202 00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:52,750 of the grant program have been? 203 00:16:53,510 --> 00:16:55,870 Well, at first it was like hard to find good projects 204 00:16:55,870 --> 00:16:59,050 in five years ago when we started the program. 205 00:16:59,710 --> 00:17:03,610 Now it's like a deluge of people coming to us with ideas 206 00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:12,650 And there are way too many ideas that we can possibly fund is what I've learned, is that the space is really maturing. 207 00:17:13,090 --> 00:17:17,350 Whereas five years ago, you didn't have that many Bitcoin educational initiatives in South America. 208 00:17:17,550 --> 00:17:18,490 Like, this just didn't really exist. 209 00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:20,750 Today, there's dozens and dozens and dozens, right? 210 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:24,190 So they keep multiplying every day all around the world. 211 00:17:24,530 --> 00:17:31,470 Translation projects, hubs, spaces like Presidio Bitcoin, places like local hosts that are supporting local developers, 212 00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:39,790 uh ux design projects merchant adoption stuff each world region has so much of that each going on 213 00:17:39,790 --> 00:17:44,990 and uh we just see it in the deluge of cool projects that get submitted to us 214 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:50,930 cold storage multi-sig all kinds of interesting stuff new wallets that do different things 215 00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:56,650 um all kinds of lightning and e-cash things complementary tech with nostr it's just uh 216 00:17:56,650 --> 00:18:01,450 it's dizzying now so what i've learned is that the space has like really matured and the number 217 00:18:01,450 --> 00:18:04,270 of people dedicating their lives to Bitcoin 218 00:18:04,270 --> 00:18:18,205 and Bitcoin related stuff is orders of magnitude more than it was in let say before the pandemic You know it just we really really matured So big lesson there Any specific projects that are doing impactful stuff that you want to shout 219 00:18:18,805 --> 00:18:26,245 I mean, I really like what Africa Free Routing is doing and what BTC Data are doing in Africa. 220 00:18:26,585 --> 00:18:28,365 I mean, Africa Free Routing, you should follow them. 221 00:18:28,445 --> 00:18:33,225 They're like doing these incredible live boot camps where you take developers and they start 222 00:18:33,225 --> 00:18:33,985 hacking lightning. 223 00:18:33,985 --> 00:18:36,565 and there's 20, 30, 40, 50 people in the room 224 00:18:36,565 --> 00:18:37,445 and they were in Benin 225 00:18:37,445 --> 00:18:39,485 and now they're going to be in Zambia 226 00:18:39,485 --> 00:18:40,765 and they're going all over the continent. 227 00:18:40,925 --> 00:18:41,385 It's amazing. 228 00:18:42,185 --> 00:18:43,585 And those people are all going to have skills 229 00:18:43,585 --> 00:18:45,225 that they can, especially with AI tools, 230 00:18:45,325 --> 00:18:47,505 that now they can like work for companies abroad 231 00:18:47,505 --> 00:18:48,645 and they can get paid in sats 232 00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:50,025 or they can at least do stuff 233 00:18:50,025 --> 00:18:51,265 with companies like Stackwork 234 00:18:51,265 --> 00:18:52,405 where they can do micro jobs. 235 00:18:52,605 --> 00:18:54,565 Like it's getting very exciting. 236 00:18:54,805 --> 00:18:58,745 Like a replet equipped lightning engineer anywhere 237 00:18:58,745 --> 00:19:00,345 who can get paid in Bitcoin, 238 00:19:00,905 --> 00:19:02,185 you know, can start basically competing 239 00:19:02,185 --> 00:19:04,165 with someone who just got a PhD from Stanford. 240 00:19:04,365 --> 00:19:06,145 Like it's getting really exciting on that front. 241 00:19:06,765 --> 00:19:09,385 BTC Data does work with helping women 242 00:19:09,385 --> 00:19:10,725 in different communities in Africa 243 00:19:10,725 --> 00:19:12,145 learn how to use Bitcoin, 244 00:19:12,245 --> 00:19:12,965 how to save in it, 245 00:19:13,005 --> 00:19:13,905 and how to use it as a, 246 00:19:14,545 --> 00:19:16,225 like a sword and a shield basically 247 00:19:16,225 --> 00:19:17,885 to fight for their place in society. 248 00:19:18,065 --> 00:19:20,085 So those two projects are just 249 00:19:20,085 --> 00:19:21,865 sort of totally next level, I think. 250 00:19:21,965 --> 00:19:24,105 And hopefully we see a lot more like that. 251 00:19:26,525 --> 00:19:27,525 A couple more minutes. 252 00:19:27,945 --> 00:19:28,485 A few more questions. 253 00:19:28,485 --> 00:19:32,165 So I have to get at least one spicy question for you. 254 00:19:32,185 --> 00:19:35,425 Do you have any controversial Bitcoin opinions? 255 00:19:36,625 --> 00:19:38,025 Controversial Bitcoin opinions. 256 00:19:38,945 --> 00:19:41,685 Well, obviously, it was very controversial that I thought it was. 257 00:19:43,925 --> 00:19:48,305 There's nuance, but that I didn't think that simping for Bukele was like a good idea. 258 00:19:48,865 --> 00:19:51,125 That one, I got a lot of heat for that one. 259 00:19:53,705 --> 00:19:55,425 That one's that one's probably been the toughest. 260 00:19:55,685 --> 00:19:58,965 I mean, I mean, from day one, I was very excited about the Bitcoin law in El Salvador. 261 00:19:58,965 --> 00:20:03,965 in as much as I just think if you're going to have legal tender, I mean, any country that has 262 00:20:03,965 --> 00:20:07,545 legal tender, we should definitely have Bitcoin as legal tender also. So I thought that was a step 263 00:20:07,545 --> 00:20:11,345 in the right direction. And I thought it was just going to be interesting and cool for there to be 264 00:20:11,345 --> 00:20:16,505 like an open environment for the support of things like remittances in Bitcoin and things like that. 265 00:20:17,325 --> 00:20:22,305 But at the same time, I had observed to that point that this leader was showing a lot of 266 00:20:22,305 --> 00:20:28,005 authoritarian signs. And those have really obviously amplified. And, you know, I went there 267 00:20:28,005 --> 00:20:32,585 or four years ago. And since then, he's like, you know, basically gotten rid of term limits, 268 00:20:32,965 --> 00:20:37,245 dismantled any possible opposition, murdered opponents. It's getting really dicey down there. 269 00:20:37,845 --> 00:20:43,385 So from a civil liberties point of view, like, don't get me wrong, he's clearly presided over 270 00:20:43,385 --> 00:20:48,225 a lot of security and safety. But those are not the same thing as freedom. They're different things. 271 00:20:48,425 --> 00:20:51,645 So the question is, can you do both, which is really what you want in a society? You want to 272 00:20:51,645 --> 00:20:56,085 be free and safe. You don't just want to be safe and you don't just want to be free. You want both. 273 00:20:56,085 --> 00:21:23,825 And I just don't think that that model is going to do well. And that's been a very spicy take because everybody loved him for the Bitcoin stuff. But to be honest, like, yeah, I mean, he's bought some Bitcoin, but we don't know who controls it. We don't really know how much he has. Who's got the keys? It's taxpayer money. The taxpayers have no control over it. So it's been, you know, and it's been super disappointing that he started taking money from the IMF and now is scrapping a lot of the Bitcoin stuff that I thought was most exciting in the first place. 274 00:21:23,825 --> 00:21:25,705 none of the mining really came to fruition. 275 00:21:25,825 --> 00:21:26,705 There's no Bitcoin city. 276 00:21:26,905 --> 00:21:28,525 So a lot of these things were promises 277 00:21:28,525 --> 00:21:29,885 that he very wisely made 278 00:21:29,885 --> 00:21:31,505 because he got super famous 279 00:21:31,505 --> 00:21:34,385 and it was sexy to be the Bitcoin dictator or whatever. 280 00:21:35,425 --> 00:21:37,785 But I think a lot of that stuff's falling away 281 00:21:37,785 --> 00:21:38,845 and we're seeing, you know, 282 00:21:39,365 --> 00:21:41,245 that maybe the commitment to Bitcoin 283 00:21:41,245 --> 00:21:43,145 is not really what it once was. 284 00:21:44,205 --> 00:21:46,045 But at least he's not shitcoining, I guess. 285 00:21:46,045 --> 00:21:48,965 That's a, yet, that's a positive. 286 00:21:49,805 --> 00:21:50,925 That is a positive. 287 00:21:51,525 --> 00:21:52,825 Okay, one more question 288 00:21:52,825 --> 00:21:55,025 And we'll have it be a positive one. 289 00:21:55,185 --> 00:21:55,385 Okay. 290 00:21:57,245 --> 00:22:00,645 What gives you the most hope for Bitcoin's future? 291 00:22:02,105 --> 00:22:11,645 I think that each adoption cycle, like we're in right now, another cycle, brings in a whole new wave of new people who weren't in Bitcoin before. 292 00:22:12,165 --> 00:22:14,425 And they add incredible things to Bitcoin. 293 00:22:14,745 --> 00:22:15,385 Absolutely incredible. 294 00:22:15,385 --> 00:22:38,285 And I still believe this, that in 2050, when, if there is still a Time magazine or whatever, we'll see legacy media. But let's say Time magazine still exists and it's still doing like top 10 lists or whatever. When Time magazine does its top 10 most important people in Bitcoin's history, I still think that six or seven of those people at least aren't in Bitcoin yet. 295 00:22:38,285 --> 00:23:03,985 I think they're going to come in through these adoption cycles. They might be entrepreneurs, industrialists, designers, developers doing stuff at a civilizational level that today are like not interested in Bitcoin. But the next cycle, the one after that, the one after that is going to bring everybody in. So I'm most excited for all the human capital that's going to be drawn into this project that we're all working on together and how it's going to drive us even further. And that's just something I'm super, super bullish about. 296 00:23:03,985 --> 00:23:08,665 I love that answer and especially you know emphasizes that people aren't too late and 297 00:23:08,665 --> 00:23:13,805 there's not at all we're at the beginning early innings here early innings remember that like 298 00:23:13,805 --> 00:23:18,965 99% of UX designers still aren't working on Bitcoin 99% of developers still aren't working 299 00:23:18,965 --> 00:23:24,265 on Bitcoin like we're we're not there yet we're not there yet but good start though good start 300 00:23:24,265 --> 00:23:31,745 we're doing good yeah start um well that was the last of my questions that I have time for 301 00:23:31,745 --> 00:23:33,765 so for our listeners 302 00:23:33,765 --> 00:23:35,405 if they want to reach out to you 303 00:23:35,405 --> 00:23:36,485 where can they learn more 304 00:23:36,485 --> 00:23:37,305 any suggestions 305 00:23:37,305 --> 00:23:38,905 books they should read 306 00:23:38,905 --> 00:23:41,185 sure so you can go to href.org 307 00:23:41,185 --> 00:23:43,085 and check out our financial freedom page 308 00:23:43,085 --> 00:23:44,365 if you want to learn about our programs 309 00:23:44,365 --> 00:23:45,565 or webinars or grants 310 00:23:45,565 --> 00:23:48,365 you can follow me on x at Gladstein 311 00:23:48,365 --> 00:23:51,565 I also in my profile have my Nostra and Pub 312 00:23:51,565 --> 00:23:55,105 if you want to follow me on a better social network 313 00:23:55,105 --> 00:23:56,025 that can't be stopped 314 00:23:56,025 --> 00:23:58,925 where you have your control over your data and identity 315 00:23:58,925 --> 00:24:00,485 and choice over what client to use 316 00:24:00,485 --> 00:24:01,645 go over there 317 00:24:02,545 --> 00:24:05,065 And then you can take a look at some of my books, 318 00:24:05,405 --> 00:24:07,005 Check Your Financial Privilege or Hidden Repression, 319 00:24:07,225 --> 00:24:09,965 and hopefully some new stuff I have coming out soon. 320 00:24:10,125 --> 00:24:11,645 So thanks for having me on. 321 00:24:11,825 --> 00:24:13,145 Of course, you're always welcome here. 322 00:24:13,345 --> 00:24:13,685 Amazing. 323 00:24:14,105 --> 00:24:14,725 Great, thank you. 324 00:24:14,825 --> 00:24:15,145 Thank you.