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Kyle, welcome to Presidio Bitcoin and 21 and 21.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Excited to be here and just this week.

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Like this will be a great week here for you guys and excited to be a part of it.

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Yeah.

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For those of you that don't know Kyle, he's the principal design director at Block.

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He's leading project to make Bitcoin everyday money.

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He's been at Block for a long time and has eight plus years at the company.

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He's helped shape branding, marketing, and product design and held leadership roles such as head of brand creative at Cash App.

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I've seen his talent firsthand.

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He's been kind enough to help us on the spiral side.

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My team helped us with design and branding, including our super sweet logo.

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Yeah, happy to be here and just love the agenda and the programming for the week.

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Well, it's about to get started, so let's get to it.

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Cool.

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It's my first question for you.

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So yes, you're here for Bitcoin Design Week. Can you tell our listeners more about what you plan to talk about today?

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Yeah, definitely. My talk is about the state of Bitcoin brand creative.

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I think in the time since Bitcoin's origin, like there's been a few different chapters of how things have looked and a lot of good work.

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but I think there's room for diversification

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in how things look

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and like more visual interest

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as we bring the next like 96% of people

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on the planet into this universe.

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So just gonna share some of the cash app highlights

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from my time there on Bitcoin projects

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and talk about our approach a bit.

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I'm very much inspired by artists,

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how they work and how they live, honestly.

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So we'll be injecting some of that into it as well.

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I'm excited.

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Awesome.

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So as a designer, like what got you originally interested in Bitcoin to begin with?

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Good question.

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I was working in Chicago at a few financial institutions as a contractor doing essentially like, I guess it was kind of a fusion of product design and brand design at the time.

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This is kind of 2012, 2013-ish.

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And I'd started to hear about Bitcoin in the background and just started to witness.

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I was getting into like trusts and like setting up family offices and designing for that and kind of getting a peek behind the curtain of the 1%.

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and just formed my own opinions that like I wasn't super interested in that world and like

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continuing to serve them. So it was kind of a perfect storm of getting a taste of that and

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also finding something that could be a more fair and like balanced solution. I was immediately

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hooked and you know here we are now um well i get that so one of the themes of design week is

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designing future money what does that kind of mean and how do how can we think about that compared to

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what we have now yeah designing future money i love the phrase it's very like conjures up like

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so many thoughts i think for me i get more into the like great we have a new reserve how do we

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how do we make the layer two on top of that like work for everyone historically like i was talking

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about with the the one percenters the family offices like they have all these very specialized

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tax optimization folks on their teams that are,

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it's like an army of financial people

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optimizing everything for them.

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I think something like Bitcoin mixed with open source,

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it's like you can set up something like that for everyone

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and like financial savviness can be had by all.

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It doesn't need to be an elite thing

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run by an army of operators.

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So that's like the high level abstract.

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Yeah. I have a deeper cut, though.

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You have a deeper cut? Oh, yeah. Let's go deep.

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I think money could fade into the background a little bit more.

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I don't know. I've always been intrigued by more local economies, circular economies, and measure of labor.

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But I think if Bitcoin really, or something like it, really, we nail it, I think it can move money.

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out of the forefront of people's minds.

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Like this is generation over generation,

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like long time out,

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but maybe we don't have to think about it as much

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and we can focus on the tasks at hand

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and the trades can be automated in the background

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and the labor can be captured.

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There's something really utopian

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that I can't quite articulate yet

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that I'm pretty excited about.

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Is there something that like you think we can do

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on the design side to help make money not so?

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So the forefront of our minds.

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So stressful.

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So stressful.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think it's, we're kind of just getting started.

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Like as a currency, Bitcoin is so young.

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I think we're pushing in all the right ways, having things like this design week and all the boot camps and like sprint projects.

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Like it's great.

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I think eventually we might have to, I don't know,

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like learn from that financial realm of financial advice

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and like how to layer some of that into this

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on top of the currency but I think we can figure that out Yeah Well I know that you fascinated with Bitcoin and kind of the intersection with the arts Like maybe that this kind of cultural side can help

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Absolutely.

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Money feel less stressful, more fun.

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Yeah.

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My observation with artists is

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I always like to talk about

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how there's two paths in history.

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There's kind of the oral and written history

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that's captured and

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edited and perfected

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ends up on Wikipedia

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or kind of in the written dialogue

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and then there's the

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artist version of history

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that takes, you know, it's not as actively

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captured, it takes a few years to get

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validated and put through the

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collector system but

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I don't know

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since the early times

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of religion, like art

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has been a big piece of history as well

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and kind of

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an easier way for people to experience history.

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And I think artists now,

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because of the times we're living in,

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it used to be just encode beauty

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or like paint from the scene.

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And now it's very different.

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There's a lot of complex things happening,

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like Bitcoin and all the communication things happening.

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So artists are encoding societal dialogues

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in really fascinating ways

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that are layered, complex,

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but stimulating and hard hitting.

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Yeah.

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Very cool.

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And you told me that one project in particular

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that you think is cool is SatShip?

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Yeah.

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I'm kind of a,

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I know this is a little bit spicy,

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but anything in the like Ordinal, SatShip,

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like all the things happening around

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the asset behind the money,

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I think it's really interesting.

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um authenticity provenance like a lot of those things end up being transferred from generation

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to generation in addition to money and like sometimes outweigh the money and value so

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mapping actual physical goods to a shared global system of value is is pretty fascinating to me i

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know there are a lot of like projects heating up in this space i don't i don't have a particular

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favorite but i'm just super optimistic about that realm um well kind of leaning on spicy hot takes

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i know that you have a lot of thoughts on kind of the sats first bitcoin discussion and for

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listeners that don't know there's kind of discussions going around on how we best display

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the fractions of bitcoin which is currently mostly in sats um but there's people who want

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to change that denomination to just be Bitcoin.

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Yeah.

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I think my initial reaction to it,

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I was a little like,

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whoa, don't change anything.

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This is like the holy book.

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Like, come on.

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After like processing a bit more,

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talking to some folks in the community,

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I've come around to the system.

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I just, I get really,

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the designer in me gets very kind of OCD about logic.

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So if there's any pieces of the change

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that seem confusing or, I don't know, room for interpretation.

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I like to just button that all up.

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So I don't know if anyone else is in this camp.

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I'm kind of in the camp of let's preserve some of the original history

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as we make this transition and let's create a symbol

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in addition to just the BTC ticker

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that can be a shorthand in interface design

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and in brand design

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that specifically indicates original whole coin.

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I know we might not need that in the next 96%,

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but I think it'll just make the logic a lot easier

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and the interface design cleaner.

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Yeah, it sounds like harmless and innocent,

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but I think those are big things.

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Totally.

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And I just love like,

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The whole system, like everyone having dialogues about this and like working through it together.

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It's a really, as a designer, like I observe a lot of the technical conversations and it's like a little over my head sometimes.

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But I trust that everyone's like figuring out the right thing.

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This is one that I've been a little closer to and pretty impressed with just everyone's pretty open and working through it.

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Yeah.

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It's definitely like a big change.

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I mean, maybe, you know, 96% of the population doesn't know what a SAT is.

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But, I mean, there's been a lot of people who have been in the Bitcoin space for a while that definitely do know what it is.

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And so it's shifting.

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But I think what influenced me is like Bitcoin has such a big network effect, the name, the brand.

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And so we want to bring people to use Bitcoin as everyday money.

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Yeah.

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Just leaning into that can really help.

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Absolutely.

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and I kind of think of the

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I'm sure we all have these conversations of like

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I'm too late like it's too late

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like just making

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that more accessible breaking that unit

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down making it approachable

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I think that's going to be a net win in the

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long term and I don't

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know maybe maybe there's like

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a separate schedule of

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the having that we need to

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like

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in my mind I was like this is kind of a

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it's not the same but it's like a stock split

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maybe we need to have a term for this if we need to execute it again

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in 10 or 12 years like that could very much be an option based on some of the

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speculation of where this all goes so I just like the logic to be very sound and

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the system to be buttoned up in case we need to repeat it I agree it makes sense shifting the conversation for a sec one question I was gonna to ask you earlier but then you already told me it was I was going to ask you if you a cats or dogs person

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Oh, yeah. Cats all the way.

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We actually love senior cats.

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We rescue senior cats, and we know a lot about Persians.

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So we love the cats.

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Hello to Reggie.

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Is Reggie your cat?

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Yeah, we got Reggie.

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We got Ronald.

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and um oh my gosh no that's two we have two right now two right now yeah yeah but sometimes you have

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more we love them yeah i love that uh another non-bitcoiny question is are there any like

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designers or thinkers that kind of have influenced how you approach design yeah

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um so many i'm very very much a product of my environment i think uh

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an early helper of mine that kind of opened my my mind to like a very concept first approach

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design and art uh was a friend in chicago steve juris he he's worked on all sorts of

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government brand projects and worked on the obama campaign he's he's very sharp and he's very

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across many mediums but he's always like brought a concept first approach to every project and

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every aspect of his life um a lot of a lot of healthy dialogues with him uh yeah i think he's

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he's a big kind of early and ongoing mentor that i check in with from time to time really respect

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yeah i've talked to a lot of designers this week which has been fun since we normally have a lot of

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engineer technical folks uh in the office um and a couple of them have really mentioned this fact

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of like being influenced by our environment

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and just being observant

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has really been something that I've enjoyed hearing

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and just, yeah, I would love your thoughts on that.

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Yeah, I think like I'm coming from being on site

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with like customer research last week.

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Like part of being a good designer

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is being a good observer.

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It informs your taste.

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It informs like the context of which you're empathetic

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to making decisions in design work.

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and it also just informs your happiness like i'm i'm very happy when i'm in spaces that stimulate me

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i'm very happy when they're beautiful and like not classically beautiful like beauty beauty can be

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very personal and uh yeah that's kind of the job of designers and artists is to help help translate

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that, bring it to projects and observation is such a huge part of that.

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Well, this is why I like this week and just the Bitcoin design community in general is

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so important that, you know, everyone has their strength and the ecosystem and what

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we're trying to build, but encouraging, you know, developers, you know, marketers, everybody

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to like work together with design, I think can really bring a product, you know, to the

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people much better.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, it takes a village on all fronts. The team I'm starting to work with a lot more at Block, or a few teams rather, we have kind of an ecosystem around this. It's like so many specialized roles and experts that just help rally around a good core need and bring design in at the right time. So, yeah.

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it's a good time to bring design into bitcoin uh one of our missions at presidio bitcoin is to try

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to bit bridge this gap between bitcoin and silicon valley like how can we get designers in silicon

244
00:15:47,631 --> 00:15:53,451
valley more excited about bitcoin either maybe just on the side everyone you know has their job

245
00:15:53,451 --> 00:16:02,291
they need to make a living or working on it full time yeah i think about that a lot um

246
00:16:02,291 --> 00:16:11,391
it's a lot of bitcoin like even i at the start like i come from a family my dad's a

247
00:16:11,391 --> 00:16:18,931
retired software engineer um like i have some technical chops but i'm just not as deep like

248
00:16:18,931 --> 00:16:24,671
i've listened to a few of these podcasts and a few of them i'm like whoa okay i'm i'm in the deep

249
00:16:24,671 --> 00:16:30,671
end i love it i gotta like get on this level i think democratizing and like translating information

250
00:16:30,671 --> 00:16:38,591
will help that but uh for me it's about bringing bringing kind of an artist lens into the into the

251
00:16:38,591 --> 00:16:47,231
fold um artists are always if they're if they're succeeding or trying to they have to self-sustain

252
00:16:47,231 --> 00:16:54,331
and they're they're kind of a perfect candidate to like stimulate us and talk about aesthetics

253
00:16:54,331 --> 00:17:00,091
and concepts but also separately the way they live their lives and like self-fund and have to

254
00:17:00,091 --> 00:17:02,151
work with institutions and galleries.

255
00:17:02,671 --> 00:17:04,151
Like, there's a lot

256
00:17:04,151 --> 00:17:05,951
to be learned there and they're just really fun

257
00:17:05,951 --> 00:17:06,671
to hang out with.

258
00:17:07,811 --> 00:17:09,371
Designers are fun, but

259
00:17:09,371 --> 00:17:11,851
artists are the most fun.

260
00:17:12,772 --> 00:17:13,931
We love

261
00:17:13,931 --> 00:17:14,711
having fun.

262
00:17:16,252 --> 00:17:18,111
Do you see Bitcoin

263
00:17:18,111 --> 00:17:19,591
itself as an art?

264
00:17:20,731 --> 00:17:21,151
Oh,

265
00:17:21,451 --> 00:17:23,391
I like that question a lot.

266
00:17:25,431 --> 00:17:29,871
I see it as

267
00:17:29,871 --> 00:17:37,051
utility that can enable art yeah there's something beautiful about it but i still

268
00:17:37,051 --> 00:17:54,657
feel like romantic in me wants to be like yes but uh i think it needs to play a utility role and empower art yeah maybe if we can do a better job at telling that side that would get artists and designers more excited about working on it

269
00:17:54,897 --> 00:17:55,297
Agreed.

270
00:17:56,097 --> 00:17:57,177
A few more minutes.

271
00:17:57,757 --> 00:18:01,257
Do you have any dream projects that you would love to see

272
00:18:01,257 --> 00:18:05,217
either a designer or a developer or anyone in the Bitcoin space build?

273
00:18:06,717 --> 00:18:11,157
I think a Bitcoin forward art gallery would be really cool.

274
00:18:11,157 --> 00:18:13,357
like just on a small local level

275
00:18:13,357 --> 00:18:16,837
zooming out to something bigger

276
00:18:16,837 --> 00:18:19,097
I think at least in the US market

277
00:18:19,097 --> 00:18:21,277
there's a lot of room for

278
00:18:21,277 --> 00:18:25,477
improvement in how Bitcoin travels

279
00:18:25,477 --> 00:18:27,417
in the philanthropy realm

280
00:18:27,417 --> 00:18:29,797
like this is a very specific technical thing

281
00:18:29,797 --> 00:18:30,437
but when you

282
00:18:30,437 --> 00:18:32,417
when you use some of the services

283
00:18:32,417 --> 00:18:33,097
where

284
00:18:33,097 --> 00:18:34,717
you can

285
00:18:34,717 --> 00:18:37,977
you can bring Bitcoin into a charitable giving account

286
00:18:37,977 --> 00:18:40,577
you have to go through like a

287
00:18:41,157 --> 00:18:43,717
appraiser and get your Bitcoin appraised.

288
00:18:44,137 --> 00:18:52,557
And it's just kind of a random law firm that will charge way too much money to authenticate

289
00:18:52,557 --> 00:18:53,197
your Bitcoin.

290
00:18:53,697 --> 00:18:54,937
And it's very goofy.

291
00:18:54,937 --> 00:18:59,237
So we should, we should create a better, that might need some policy change too.

292
00:18:59,377 --> 00:18:59,857
I don't know.

293
00:18:59,937 --> 00:19:06,517
I don't know exactly what's involved in that, but it's a little goofy and felt like friction.

294
00:19:06,837 --> 00:19:07,017
Yeah.

295
00:19:07,657 --> 00:19:08,817
That definitely, yeah.

296
00:19:09,517 --> 00:19:10,657
Want to minimize friction.

297
00:19:10,817 --> 00:19:11,077
Yeah.

298
00:19:11,157 --> 00:19:14,097
It felt like the old fiat world kind of grabbing.

299
00:19:14,837 --> 00:19:19,037
Yeah, we definitely don't want to bring the old fiat world into the Bitcoin sphere.

300
00:19:19,457 --> 00:19:20,657
We're better than that.

301
00:19:23,537 --> 00:19:29,177
I guess kind of going back to your role at Block when you're really focused on making Bitcoin everyday money.

302
00:19:29,537 --> 00:19:32,877
How do you think that like we can get that to happen?

303
00:19:34,257 --> 00:19:38,457
Yeah, I think it's bringing it out of the reserve space.

304
00:19:38,457 --> 00:19:42,517
and like, you know, we have a lot of brands and businesses that block.

305
00:19:42,657 --> 00:19:46,457
We've got mining, we've got the storage wallet.

306
00:19:48,457 --> 00:19:51,517
We have Cash App and Square.

307
00:19:52,597 --> 00:19:56,597
I think it's like working on more products and services

308
00:19:56,597 --> 00:20:03,597
in that side of the world where we can get it into like the everyday space.

309
00:20:03,597 --> 00:20:07,077
so I'm pretty confident

310
00:20:07,077 --> 00:20:08,477
we can get there

311
00:20:08,477 --> 00:20:10,877
and use some of the layer 2

312
00:20:10,877 --> 00:20:13,117
projects that we've been investing in

313
00:20:13,117 --> 00:20:15,057
shouts out to

314
00:20:15,057 --> 00:20:16,117
Spiral on LDK

315
00:20:16,117 --> 00:20:18,777
but I

316
00:20:18,777 --> 00:20:20,737
I think I'll

317
00:20:20,737 --> 00:20:22,397
leave that to Block to talk about

318
00:20:22,397 --> 00:20:23,417
in some of our releases

319
00:20:23,417 --> 00:20:25,277
we're going to do some stuff today

320
00:20:25,277 --> 00:20:28,617
which I'm nervous to present

321
00:20:28,617 --> 00:20:30,617
because my deck sucks and I know that you

322
00:20:30,617 --> 00:20:32,657
probably have a very good one, I'm not a designer

323
00:20:32,657 --> 00:20:33,217
but

324
00:20:33,217 --> 00:20:34,817
the copy is good.

325
00:20:35,057 --> 00:20:35,397
Yeah.

326
00:20:36,217 --> 00:20:37,277
Of just like

327
00:20:37,277 --> 00:20:38,317
different ways

328
00:20:38,317 --> 00:20:39,137
that we can get people

329
00:20:39,137 --> 00:20:40,037
in the community

330
00:20:40,037 --> 00:20:41,457
non-block

331
00:20:41,457 --> 00:20:42,257
to kind of help,

332
00:20:42,337 --> 00:20:42,657
you know,

333
00:20:43,297 --> 00:20:44,597
onboard their local merchants

334
00:20:44,597 --> 00:20:45,577
to accepting Bitcoin.

335
00:20:45,697 --> 00:20:46,277
Maybe fun,

336
00:20:46,477 --> 00:20:47,157
creative ways

337
00:20:47,157 --> 00:20:48,097
we can get people

338
00:20:48,097 --> 00:20:49,557
like excited about Bitcoin

339
00:20:49,557 --> 00:20:50,657
to use it as money.

340
00:20:50,877 --> 00:20:51,257
Absolutely.

341
00:20:51,677 --> 00:20:52,937
I think incentivizing

342
00:20:52,937 --> 00:20:53,777
with like,

343
00:20:54,637 --> 00:20:55,457
like giveaways

344
00:20:55,457 --> 00:20:56,377
or special nights.

345
00:20:56,497 --> 00:20:57,397
Like I think about

346
00:20:57,397 --> 00:20:58,697
some of my favorite spots

347
00:20:58,697 --> 00:20:59,317
in my neighborhood

348
00:20:59,317 --> 00:21:00,117
back home.

349
00:21:00,437 --> 00:21:00,617
Like,

350
00:21:01,177 --> 00:21:02,097
we have this great

351
00:21:02,097 --> 00:21:10,077
sourdough pizza joint that I love and he's a he's a square seller it's like and he loves we we connect

352
00:21:10,077 --> 00:21:17,377
about um cars I like cars and the history of automotive and he he hosts like cars and coffee

353
00:21:17,377 --> 00:21:22,677
type events and like pizza nights and it's like oh we could we could slide the bitcoin topic into

354
00:21:22,677 --> 00:21:28,677
that and like I think event event-based activations where there's there's room for dialogue and

355
00:21:28,677 --> 00:21:35,537
education and uh exploring the topic a bit more are always always a hit in like early adoption

356
00:21:35,537 --> 00:21:42,077
cycles totally also i didn't know you were a cars and they're in san francisco i don't know if you

357
00:21:42,077 --> 00:21:47,717
know the motoring club but there is specifically a cars and coffee place there's also a designer

358
00:21:47,717 --> 00:21:55,357
here who's very into cars and coffee too josh gotta meet josh yeah um i'll connect you yeah

359
00:21:55,357 --> 00:22:07,237
Okay. Last quick question. Then we get to design week. If you could leave our listeners with like a final thought about Bitcoin or something else, what would it be?

360
00:22:07,237 --> 00:22:09,717
ooh final thought

361
00:22:09,717 --> 00:22:13,037
I think if you're involved

362
00:22:13,037 --> 00:22:13,737
keep it up

363
00:22:13,737 --> 00:22:15,017
you're doing a great job

364
00:22:15,017 --> 00:22:16,197
if you're not

365
00:22:16,197 --> 00:22:19,397
it might seem like this weird

366
00:22:19,397 --> 00:22:20,997
unapproachable

367
00:22:20,997 --> 00:22:21,977
I'm more speaking to like

368
00:22:21,977 --> 00:22:22,857
some of the creatives

369
00:22:22,857 --> 00:22:23,977
and artists out there

370
00:22:23,977 --> 00:22:25,857
it might be a little

371
00:22:25,857 --> 00:22:28,617
scary or intimidating

372
00:22:28,617 --> 00:22:29,997
but start small

373
00:22:29,997 --> 00:22:30,937
get involved

374
00:22:30,937 --> 00:22:34,337
read the white paper

375
00:22:34,337 --> 00:22:36,337
like start very small

376
00:22:36,337 --> 00:22:37,217
get into it

377
00:22:37,237 --> 00:22:38,337
Try out a wallet.

378
00:22:38,857 --> 00:22:42,157
Like, ask someone you know who's into it.

379
00:22:42,917 --> 00:22:50,277
Just learn about the space and learn about some of the implications of where this is all coming from globally.

380
00:22:50,777 --> 00:22:52,917
And I don't know.

381
00:22:53,037 --> 00:22:57,937
I think it's going to be interesting just seeing that 4% start to tick up and go higher.

382
00:22:58,197 --> 00:23:00,297
So get involved would be the advice.

383
00:23:01,077 --> 00:23:02,037
Perfect advice.

384
00:23:02,197 --> 00:23:05,437
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, for coming to San Francisco,

385
00:23:05,437 --> 00:23:07,717
and for coming to Design Week.

386
00:23:07,797 --> 00:23:08,857
It's so fun to have you.

387
00:23:08,977 --> 00:23:10,177
Yeah, excited to be here.

388
00:23:10,297 --> 00:23:11,077
Thanks for having me.

389
00:23:11,077 --> 00:23:11,297
We'll report back.

390
00:23:11,457 --> 00:23:11,557
Yeah.

391
00:23:11,677 --> 00:23:11,997
Absolutely.

392
00:23:12,417 --> 00:23:13,317
Oh, one thing.

393
00:23:13,417 --> 00:23:15,657
If our listeners want to follow your work

394
00:23:15,657 --> 00:23:17,077
or contact you,

395
00:23:17,077 --> 00:23:17,917
where should they go?

396
00:23:19,737 --> 00:23:22,397
Noster, I've had one internet screen name

397
00:23:22,397 --> 00:23:23,217
my whole life.

398
00:23:23,357 --> 00:23:24,497
It's Kyle Loves You.

399
00:23:24,637 --> 00:23:25,857
I'm very optimistic.

400
00:23:26,357 --> 00:23:27,277
It's spelt goofy

401
00:23:27,277 --> 00:23:29,357
because I chose my screen name in middle school.

402
00:23:30,257 --> 00:23:33,097
K-Y-L-E-L-U-V-S-E-W.

403
00:23:33,097 --> 00:23:41,377
love it perfect okay thank you so much awesome thanks hayley