1 00:00:00,540 --> 00:00:05,980 Welcome to 21 and 21. I'm Haley Burko, and today I'm speaking with Matt Pines. 2 00:00:06,660 --> 00:00:16,620 Matt is the Executive Director of the Bitcoin Policy Institute and a geopolitics and national security expert who applies a decade plus of experience to shaping U.S. Bitcoin policy. 3 00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:19,660 Matt, welcome to Presidio Bitcoin. 4 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:22,160 It's great to be here. My first time, great vibes. 5 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:24,680 First time, but hopefully not the last time. 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:31,860 Well, thank you for taking the time to jump on the show. And we're just going to get right into it. 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,440 Let's do it. 8 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:33,160 Let's do it. 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:44,260 Okay. First question for you. So you've had a somewhat unconventional path into the Bitcoin world. What made you shift your focus to Bitcoin? 10 00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:59,600 A few things. The first is my professional background, I feel like it made it inevitable that I would bring a combination of academic background in physics and philosophy, thinking about big questions and connecting them to public policy, which is what I did my master's in. 11 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,720 and then helping the government think about kind of a tail risk, 12 00:01:03,860 --> 00:01:05,960 sort of low probability, high consequence scenarios, 13 00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:09,580 you know, extended into cyber and geopolitics. 14 00:01:09,580 --> 00:01:11,180 While I had a personal interest in Bitcoin, 15 00:01:11,740 --> 00:01:14,260 I want to sort of think about the future of Bitcoin. 16 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:17,840 I couldn't help but look at it through the lens of my academic policy 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,920 and professional background. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,740 And it seemed like a sort of a natural fit. 19 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:25,280 And then David Zell DMed me during the pandemic 20 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,440 because I had written some random threads to nobody on Twitter 21 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,160 asking me if I would like to convert some of those threads into a, you know, white paper 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,080 for this made up think tank they were starting. And I figured, what the heck, I'll try it. And so 23 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,540 that was the start of my sort of journey into Bitcoin professionally as a national security 24 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:46,460 fellow for BPI when it first got started. And it's just been ever since kind of attracted me 25 00:01:46,460 --> 00:01:50,580 more and more and more until, you know, just early this year, I decided to sort of do the 26 00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:54,720 full pivot and become executive director, where I feel like that's where I can have the most 27 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,900 leverage. If the US government is going to be pivoting, which it seems to be in a pro-Bitcoin 28 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:04,460 direction, how to ensure that it steers in the right direction and mitigates any potential risks 29 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:09,180 while maximizes the upside for both America and Bitcoin itself. So this is the time to kind of go 30 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:16,020 all in. Definitely is the time. And so you're in DC for a lot of our listeners here, me who's in 31 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:21,920 San Francisco. Can you tell us a little bit about what the Bitcoin scene is like in DC these days? 32 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:24,480 It's small, but growing. 33 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,540 I would say growing up in D.C., 34 00:02:26,540 --> 00:02:29,080 which is where I was born in Silver Spring, Maryland. 35 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:30,540 So I've been around the D.C. area. 36 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,540 But before I got involved in Bitcoin, 37 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:33,580 it was not a Bitcoin city. 38 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:36,380 I think there has been keepers of the flame 39 00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:38,820 in terms of the Bitcoin meetups. 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,160 And there's a strong contingent of folks 41 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:41,880 that show up to those. 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,020 But I'd say relative to San Francisco or New York 43 00:02:45,020 --> 00:02:45,840 or Austin or Nashville, 44 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,900 it's definitely, it's got some room to grow. 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,840 I'm excited by the energy that has been 46 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:56,540 come out of the woodwork since the beginning of the year, really. And I'm really hoping that BPI 47 00:02:56,540 --> 00:03:00,260 can form as like a locus for some of these kind of cultural and community efforts in partnership 48 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:05,260 with PubKey over the course of the rest of the year. So I think the vibes are growing. I think 49 00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:09,580 definitely, you know, DC is a deal-making town. There's a lot of lobbyists, a lot of people in 50 00:03:09,580 --> 00:03:14,560 there that are transplants. So you kind of have to suss everyone out. You know, what's their 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,280 intentions? What are their motives? Are they Bitcoiners? Are they just sort of bandwagoning? 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,840 so that's that's a part of dc and it's a different culture than i think other other cities 53 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:29,700 but there is a there is a core bitcoin uh flame that is growing i love seeing the flame growing 54 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:35,800 and yes i'm excited to see what pup key does uh yeah i mean from our side it definitely we've seen 55 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:41,860 interest and attendance growing from the bpi summit i i haven't attended but um that's great 56 00:03:41,860 --> 00:03:46,220 that that's getting bigger. What do you think is resonating most with people? 57 00:03:47,220 --> 00:03:52,720 Well, I say to first order, right? The president has explicitly declared Bitcoin as a strategic 58 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,120 asset for the United States government, signing an executive order, creating a strategic Bitcoin 59 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:02,120 reserve, and going around and saying he wants America to be the Bitcoin superpower. So that's 60 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,860 just rhetoric coming out of the commander in chief, sitting in the White House has an effect 61 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:09,760 on everyone in DC that wouldn't normally pay attention to Bitcoin. Now they have to, right? 62 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,360 whether their views are formed and whether they're positive or negative. I think that's now 63 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,320 sort of the shaping process that's underway. But I think we're seeing kind of a dramatic 64 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,220 sort of tone shift, but also an Overton window shift in the types of policy conversations 65 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:26,200 that we can have with very serious people across the government. Folks from the national security 66 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:31,580 community, folks from the Department of State, folks from the Treasury, folks from energy and EPA, 67 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,040 across the board, folks at the White House. And on both sides of the aisle, there's a new set of 68 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,440 conversations that are now being had about Bitcoin at a very serious level. And so that's very 69 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:46,800 positive. I think that's sort of, you know, that spark has been lit. Obviously, there's risk here. 70 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,040 It's a very political town. And so the question of how much of these policy conversations get 71 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,400 tied into politics is sort of, you know, the work that we're trying to help do to separate out the 72 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,140 sort of long-term analysis of Bitcoin and the strategic national interest versus, you know, 73 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:06,020 the partisan politics that drives the news cycle. Do you have any advice to Bitcoiners on how they 74 00:05:06,020 --> 00:05:11,580 they can best communicate with policymakers or local government representatives? 75 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:18,200 Be authentic. In fact, we did a sort of first of its kind Bitcoin day on the hill on the day after 76 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:23,020 our Bitcoin policy summit. And we were really overwhelmed. We had about 120 Bitcoiners. These 77 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:27,580 were just, you know, everyday Bitcoiners who decided to come to this event, put on a suit, 78 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:31,960 and we organized essentially a series of structured meetings with almost half of the Senate 79 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,660 and about 60 or so House offices. 80 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,960 And in fact, I think there were more Democratic offices. 81 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,200 And it was a decent training. 82 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:41,740 We sort of said, this is polite. 83 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,280 Here are some talking points. 84 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:49,140 We want everyone to sort of resonate on the Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act 85 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:51,720 to sort of make sure that non-custodial tool developers are protected, 86 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,440 try to get that into the clarity bill. 87 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,000 But really, everyone had their own approach. 88 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,920 And it was about constituents speaking to their representatives 89 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,860 and saying, I use Bitcoin. 90 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:01,960 I think Bitcoin is good. 91 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:03,940 I think you represent me 92 00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:05,600 and I want you to protect Bitcoin 93 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,640 and to ensure that my interests 94 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:10,760 as a constituent of yours 95 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,060 are represented in DC. 96 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,440 And that's for everyone 97 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,280 to kind of take on their own shoulders 98 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:18,940 and just give your representative a call 99 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:19,880 or show up to their offices. 100 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:21,260 It's an open democracy. 101 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:24,140 And I think it was such a successful event. 102 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:25,940 We're probably gonna do another one 103 00:06:25,940 --> 00:06:27,620 maybe later this year, 104 00:06:27,620 --> 00:06:37,920 TBD on that But it seemed like such a high ROI event to actually have Bitcoiners from the district that are not lobbyists They not here representing a company or some special 105 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,920 interest. They're just everyday people saying that Bitcoin is important. And I think politicians, 106 00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:50,680 especially the representatives, they listen. And that resonates differently than a suit walking 107 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:56,780 the door with a, give me something. That's great advice. It's definitely a team effort from everyone, 108 00:06:56,780 --> 00:06:59,180 But thank you for all the work that you're doing local. 109 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,880 So what do you think a world on the Bitcoin standard should look like? 110 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:07,540 Should look like? 111 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:08,920 In your opinion. 112 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:11,960 Well, that's not a one minute answer. 113 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:19,120 I think there's some core principles of Bitcoin that I think our society would do well to adopt, 114 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:25,960 which is a sense of self-sovereignty, responsibility, integrity, openness, transparency, honesty. 115 00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:31,700 and technical rigor, right? So building on a foundation that is open to all, that's inspectable 116 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:37,040 by everyone, that ensures a level playing field. There's no in-group, there's no special interests, 117 00:07:37,140 --> 00:07:43,120 there's no insiders, there's no cleristry at the top that's dictating rules that everyone else has 118 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:49,840 to follow. And it's a consent that's given and that's adopted by the whole community. 119 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,980 And so I think about it more from a philosophical lens of how to construct 120 00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:59,420 political orders that are stable and legitimate as we enter an age of digital disruption. 121 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:05,060 I think the economic model, as our overall society and civilization goes through these 122 00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:11,060 technological shifts, the acceleration of AI, robotics, advanced manufacturing, 123 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,160 combination of that with the sort of rewriting of the social contract, that's going to inject 124 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,160 a huge amount of uncertainty and stability. And what comes out on the other end and what role 125 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,560 Bitcoin will play, I have no forecast, but I think the principles of Bitcoin are going to be 126 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,800 critical to ensure that we maintain kind of a pluralistic, decentralized structure. We don't 127 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,220 fall into sort of techno-authoritarianism or techno-totalitarianism. We sort of default to, 128 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:37,200 you know, the Borg, right? The hive mind that controls us and that dictates our whims and 129 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,840 desires. I think Bitcoin represents an ethos of pushing power to the edges as much as you can 130 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:49,740 and creating a stack of society that's built on as much as you can, energy, compute, money, 131 00:08:49,740 --> 00:08:51,520 and free expression, right? 132 00:08:51,580 --> 00:08:53,100 And it's like, that's the sovereign stack 133 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:54,1000 that as much as we can push 134 00:08:54,1000 --> 00:08:56,820 into the hands of every individual 135 00:08:56,820 --> 00:08:58,800 and family and, you know, 136 00:08:58,840 --> 00:08:59,920 pure organized social group, 137 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:01,160 the more we're going to have, I think, 138 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:02,580 something like democracy 139 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:03,840 and civil society flourish 140 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,620 throughout whatever disruptions come next. 141 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,840 So you're here 142 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,360 for the Quantum Bitcoin Summit. 143 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:13,020 I've heard you mention 144 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:15,960 potential risks of quantum computing 145 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:16,960 to Bitcoin. 146 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,560 From a policy standpoint, 147 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:23,940 What kind of government or institutional response do you think is needed? 148 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,280 Is this urgent? 149 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:33,120 I don't think there's an immediate response needed by the government in terms of like a law passed or a rule made or regulation. 150 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:34,460 I think that's definitely premature. 151 00:09:34,460 --> 00:09:42,540 I think we are seeing a development of the technology underlying quantum computing take a certain direction, 152 00:09:42,540 --> 00:09:47,840 which means that every stakeholder in Bitcoin or around Bitcoin has to pay attention and has to 153 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,500 start considering these questions in a deliberate fashion. That's why I'm here today to sort of 154 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:56,480 learn from the community, get a sort of a vibe check of where people are on one, 155 00:09:56,580 --> 00:10:01,260 the perception of the threat, the timeline of the threat, the way the threat might manifest 156 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:06,660 and what the potential impacts could be, how catastrophic they are, and then what then are 157 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:11,340 the distribution of mitigation options that we should consider in terms of software proposals, 158 00:10:11,340 --> 00:10:18,060 different addresses that we can move to hourglass sorts of you know sort of buying buying us some 159 00:10:18,060 --> 00:10:23,400 time or sort of other more radical propositions we're still i think um very early days and sort 160 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,460 of canvassing the set of possible solutions and in my view i think you know bitcoin and bitcoin 161 00:10:28,460 --> 00:10:33,060 developers need to have this conversation internally first the government of course is 162 00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:37,100 going to pay increasingly close attention to this as they have a street bitcoin reserve potentially 163 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:42,760 maybe they even get more Bitcoin. But from another perspective, the US government is developing and 164 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,260 probably has some of the most advanced quantum computers on the planet. So the threat that 165 00:10:47,260 --> 00:10:51,540 Bitcoin is and Bitcoiners are trying to mitigate, the US government probably has better insight into 166 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:55,600 the nature and timeline of the threat than almost any other entity on the planet. And so this is 167 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,340 going to set up a kind of a tension, right, between the inherent kind of suspicion inside the Bitcoin 168 00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:07,080 community for the US government as an actor and a set of actors that are both the political 169 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,460 side, which may not be pro-Bitcoin, but also like the quote, you know, deep state side, the folks, 170 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:16,460 you know, in these three-letter agencies. And I don't think there's going to be a clear path 171 00:11:16,460 --> 00:11:19,280 that's going to be laid out immediately. It's about taking it one step at a time, 172 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,540 being very deliberate and thoughtful, but also like looking ahead, right? If we do this, 173 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,780 then what happens? And thinking about the distribution of scenarios. And so that's why 174 00:11:26,780 --> 00:11:31,740 I'm here to kind of suss out like, what's the sense of these different possible scenarios? I 175 00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:36,980 have in my mind, you know, different possibilities, but there's inherent uncertainty here. But at the 176 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:43,440 timeline of the technology, the nature of how it might manifest in terms of the small number of 177 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,340 threat actors that you could model in terms of their intentions and capabilities to leverage a 178 00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:52,820 thought-tolerant quantum computer. And so it's a very complicated topic. It's very fraught with 179 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:59,520 both detailed fundamental physics and engineering and speculative assessments of how fast that might 180 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,960 progress, when you might trip the threshold, or having a feasible attack on an 181 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,360 on a on ecdsa and then what are the different trade-offs associated with different mitigation 182 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:18,760 strategies damison lop has his proposal um and i think this is about max matching both the 183 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,360 technical conversation the analysis the geopolitical kind of conversation in terms of as 184 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,120 bitcoin becomes a geopolitical asset it's going to pull in governments into this conversation 185 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,880 and then these more ethical or philosophical trade-offs what are the core commitments we have 186 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,820 to bitcoin what what might we have to give up in order to make certain mitigation decisions 187 00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:42,280 in terms of burning old coins or locking them up or putting time locks, etc. 188 00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:46,520 These are going to be inherent challenges to some basic principles that everyone thinks are core to Bitcoin. 189 00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:51,120 So there's no easy answer and there's no ruler from on high who's going to dictate it. 190 00:12:51,180 --> 00:12:53,120 It has to form out of these conversations. 191 00:12:53,380 --> 00:12:54,800 So this is why I'm happy to be here. 192 00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:58,740 We should have some really interesting conversations the next day and a half. 193 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:08,679 And hopefully we all have a lot to share after that But it great that we all getting together and like such a diverse group of people and these conversations are needed as you mentioned 194 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:14,759 So do you have any book recommendations 195 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:17,339 you've recently read that have been interesting? 196 00:13:18,339 --> 00:13:21,619 Ooh, book recommendations. 197 00:13:21,899 --> 00:13:22,059 Okay. 198 00:13:23,099 --> 00:13:25,279 It could be podcasts or movies too. 199 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:25,899 Yeah. 200 00:13:25,899 --> 00:13:47,219 Yeah. Global Discord is a great one by Paul Tucker. He was the number two at the Bank of England. And it's a kind of a technical book, philosophical book, but it is sort of written from inside the house of Bitcoiners sort of stipulated enemy. Right. But he's a very thoughtful guy, very, very smart, very intellectual. 201 00:13:47,219 --> 00:13:52,819 and it basically gives a critique of his peers, critique of the global central banking community 202 00:13:52,819 --> 00:13:56,519 and kind of the political order that it was premised on. 203 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:59,479 This kind of 20th century model of top-down technocratic governance 204 00:13:59,479 --> 00:14:04,539 that they viewed as being very successful, kind of presiding over an era of global peace, 205 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:09,619 financial integration, globalization, relatively low inflation after the 70s. 206 00:14:09,619 --> 00:14:16,519 And that imbued these modern-day high priests with a sense of maybe undeserved confidence 207 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:19,559 and maybe the sense of specialness as a tribe 208 00:14:19,559 --> 00:14:21,219 governing the rest of society 209 00:14:21,219 --> 00:14:24,519 and viewing money as like their thing that they own, 210 00:14:24,599 --> 00:14:26,239 that they sort of let society use. 211 00:14:26,339 --> 00:14:27,839 In fact, central bankers often refer to it 212 00:14:27,839 --> 00:14:28,959 as central bank money. 213 00:14:29,099 --> 00:14:30,679 It's like our, it's our money. 214 00:14:30,779 --> 00:14:32,879 We reserve the right to control how you use it or not. 215 00:14:33,319 --> 00:14:35,539 And so he really points a very strong light 216 00:14:35,539 --> 00:14:38,799 at this sort of, this tension now 217 00:14:38,799 --> 00:14:41,339 that exists both between democracy and central banks 218 00:14:41,339 --> 00:14:43,359 as well as the geopolitical order unraveling 219 00:14:43,359 --> 00:14:44,999 and putting a lot of tension on central banks 220 00:14:44,999 --> 00:14:46,299 being independent. 221 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:51,539 And geopolitical progress and national strategic interests come into play and oftentimes central banks get subsumed. 222 00:14:51,699 --> 00:14:58,519 And so we're talking and I think there was an article today about a letter that Trump had drafted, you know, that he was waving around in the Louisville office. 223 00:14:59,299 --> 00:15:02,579 That was apparently a letter that would fire, you know, Jerome Powell. 224 00:15:02,999 --> 00:15:05,699 And so these are live questions now we're seeing society kind of grapple with. 225 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:07,959 But he wrote this great book to kind of diagnose it. 226 00:15:08,899 --> 00:15:09,819 I'll check it out. 227 00:15:11,099 --> 00:15:15,679 How are you thinking about the intersection of Bitcoin and AI? 228 00:15:16,519 --> 00:15:33,199 So there's many different, I think, components of the intersection. I mean, the most obvious one we're seeing right now in the market is at the infrastructure level, the energy system, the grid system, where you're seeing Bitcoin miners sell to AI companies or become AI companies or stand up HPC subsidiaries or side businesses. 229 00:15:33,199 --> 00:15:40,359 and there's a even more potential integration as you have these big training runs or large compute 230 00:15:40,359 --> 00:15:45,479 clusters that have a differential power demand profile you can sort of put bitcoin in as a kind 231 00:15:45,479 --> 00:15:50,359 of a load balancer kind of one be a bit more efficient with use of energy but also maybe help 232 00:15:50,359 --> 00:15:55,579 optimize the use of that that power so that's like practical right happening right now there's a much 233 00:15:55,579 --> 00:16:01,419 larger maybe more speculative near future scenario where you have autonomous agents potentially even 234 00:16:01,419 --> 00:16:07,719 running economically viable businesses on their own. And what are they going to use to transact 235 00:16:07,719 --> 00:16:12,659 and save the earnings that they have from conducting these autonomous economic activities 236 00:16:12,659 --> 00:16:19,199 cross-border, essentially transnational? And if they can't hold bank accounts, it's going to be 237 00:16:19,199 --> 00:16:24,459 difficult for them to set up the normal sorts of infrastructure of a C-Corp or an LLC. And so the 238 00:16:24,459 --> 00:16:27,419 natural inclination would be to say, well, they might use a combination of stablecoins and Bitcoin. 239 00:16:27,419 --> 00:16:45,579 A bit more hypothetical, but I think the end state is going to be driven by these dynamics. And I think Bitcoin will be increasingly important to how we think about a digital economy that's riding on a compute infrastructure that's the foundation of modern civilization. 240 00:16:45,579 --> 00:16:49,039 and countries are going to have to decide 241 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:50,579 what's their sort of national policy 242 00:16:50,579 --> 00:16:52,239 for building this sort of sovereign stack. 243 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:54,339 Their sovereign energy layer, 244 00:16:55,119 --> 00:16:55,939 their compute layer, 245 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:57,119 their AI layer, 246 00:16:57,219 --> 00:16:57,879 and their money layer. 247 00:16:58,339 --> 00:16:59,219 And ultimately, I think countries 248 00:16:59,219 --> 00:17:00,519 are going to want to be as sovereign as possible. 249 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:02,519 But I think that desire 250 00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,479 is going to be fractal throughout society. 251 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:05,799 And it's not just going to be for individuals, 252 00:17:05,879 --> 00:17:07,399 it's going to be for these economic agents 253 00:17:07,399 --> 00:17:08,919 that are going to make increasingly 254 00:17:08,919 --> 00:17:10,119 what would look like 255 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,299 economically rational decisions. 256 00:17:11,779 --> 00:17:13,939 And I think even a smart AI would be like, 257 00:17:13,979 --> 00:17:14,779 well, maybe I don't want to hold 258 00:17:14,779 --> 00:17:17,059 long-term treasuries. It doesn't seem like a great 259 00:17:17,059 --> 00:17:18,759 place for me to store my wealth. 260 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:20,979 So that's going to be a fascinating development. 261 00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:22,659 But I think, yeah, Bitcoin and AI are going to be 262 00:17:22,659 --> 00:17:24,719 two core drivers. And 263 00:17:24,719 --> 00:17:26,879 the last point is they're both on 264 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:28,419 these hockey sticks. 265 00:17:29,079 --> 00:17:30,979 And so AI is on this hockey stick, and Bitcoin 266 00:17:30,979 --> 00:17:33,019 I think is also on this hockey stick. And it looks 267 00:17:33,019 --> 00:17:35,199 kind of like the hockey sticks might line up in the next few years. 268 00:17:35,859 --> 00:17:37,139 And so those interdependencies 269 00:17:37,139 --> 00:17:39,019 and that dynamic 270 00:17:39,019 --> 00:17:40,979 between those two accelerating phenomenon 271 00:17:40,979 --> 00:17:42,819 is going to be very important to look at. 272 00:17:42,819 --> 00:17:45,179 That's a lot of what BPAT is going to be focused on as well. 273 00:17:45,819 --> 00:17:48,319 It definitely feels like a hockey stick for sure, especially AI. 274 00:17:48,479 --> 00:17:50,299 Things are happening so quick. 275 00:17:50,399 --> 00:17:51,679 There's so much more you can do now. 276 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:53,919 And yeah, it will be really exciting to see. 277 00:17:55,439 --> 00:18:00,739 Do you have any dream projects that you would love to see Bitcoiners build? 278 00:18:02,339 --> 00:18:10,899 Ooh, one thing I think the market's lacking is a large, well-capitalized, 279 00:18:10,899 --> 00:18:16,759 ideally, you know, publicly listed sort of all-in-one Bitcoin services company that had, 280 00:18:17,159 --> 00:18:23,679 you know, everything from trading to custody to inheritance, tax planning, insurance, right? So 281 00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:27,479 imagine you took all the kind of great Bitcoin companies that we kind of know and love, and 282 00:18:27,479 --> 00:18:33,899 they're building really good verticals in different areas. My ideal would be to have like one-stop 283 00:18:33,899 --> 00:18:38,579 shopping where I could just be like, this is the greatest, this is the Bitcoin company. And it sort 284 00:18:38,579 --> 00:18:46,439 rivals you know the publicly listed um equities right now um but there isn't really a a a you know 285 00:18:46,439 --> 00:18:52,099 household name bitcoin publicly listed um you know all-in-one financial services company i think 286 00:18:52,099 --> 00:18:56,419 we're on that trajectory i think it'd be exciting to see in the next year or two whether something 287 00:18:56,419 --> 00:19:01,439 like that can take shape but just like speaking selfishly like i would want that right instead of 288 00:19:01,439 --> 00:19:05,759 having like account here to do this and another you know these are all great companies right but 289 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:08,479 eventually it would be nice to have at least 290 00:19:08,479 --> 00:19:10,339 and then have some competition, right? 291 00:19:10,379 --> 00:19:11,939 Have them kind of build something. 292 00:19:12,059 --> 00:19:14,559 So that I think is part of the institutionalization 293 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,179 and just more consumer friendliness of Bitcoin 294 00:19:17,179 --> 00:19:18,539 that I think it needs to catch up to. 295 00:19:19,979 --> 00:19:23,899 Maybe we can get some vibe-coded prototypes on this idea. 296 00:19:25,259 --> 00:19:27,319 Yeah, that's the other convergence of AI and Bitcoin. 297 00:19:27,459 --> 00:19:28,399 People can just start building stuff. 298 00:19:28,779 --> 00:19:29,639 You can just start building stuff. 299 00:19:29,779 --> 00:19:31,059 So shout out to the listeners 300 00:19:31,059 --> 00:19:48,099 if anyone wants to get started building on this a couple more questions so I have to ask you do you have any spicy bitcoin takes oh spicy bitcoin takes um i think uh china has more bitcoin than america 301 00:19:48,099 --> 00:19:55,259 right now which is a problem if you're you know someone sitting inside dc yeah i think china 302 00:19:55,259 --> 00:20:02,479 probably has i guess close to 200 000 bitcoin and i think we probably have depends if if you 303 00:20:02,479 --> 00:20:04,619 count Biffinex, but I think we probably have closer to 40. 304 00:20:06,959 --> 00:20:07,319 Wow. 305 00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:07,679 Yeah. 306 00:20:08,019 --> 00:20:08,779 Quite a big difference. 307 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,359 And the Bitcoin that's maybe not kind of that 40 is Bitcoin that's held by other government 308 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:13,839 agencies. 309 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:18,599 We'll see if they put it into the Street Bitcoin Reserve, though. 310 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:19,099 We'll see. 311 00:20:19,239 --> 00:20:19,699 As they're told. 312 00:20:19,999 --> 00:20:20,119 Yeah. 313 00:20:24,159 --> 00:20:25,699 One more optimistic note. 314 00:20:25,699 --> 00:20:29,019 What gives you hope now for Bitcoin's future? 315 00:20:29,019 --> 00:20:57,139 I just think, well, it's a bit cynical, right? But I think you get the call from your mom or your aunt and they say, oh, I just bought some Ibit, right? And you're like, that's not exactly what, not exactly Bitcoin. But I feel like that is the gateway. And their cost basis and their sort of unit bias is the share price of the ETF. 316 00:20:57,959 --> 00:21:04,999 Now, that's not the best way to kind of, you know, get someone into Bitcoin, but it's probably going to be the way people come into Bitcoin now. 317 00:21:05,779 --> 00:21:15,059 And so I think I'm optimistic that that is the largest funnel we've ever had to pull people into Bitcoin, to have them ask questions about it. 318 00:21:15,059 --> 00:21:18,219 Because once they have it in their portfolio, then they have some skin in the game. 319 00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:21,019 And now they want to understand what this thing is. 320 00:21:21,619 --> 00:21:24,719 And most, you know, humans are, you know, limited creatures. 321 00:21:24,719 --> 00:21:28,839 We have only so much time in the day to spend to like, like dig into something, right? 322 00:21:29,199 --> 00:21:40,179 And Bitcoiners are sort of self-selected to be curious about either the philosophy of political order and a changing digital society or the nature of money or cryptography or game theory or computer science. 323 00:21:40,239 --> 00:21:42,839 And so we have some sort of reason to care about Bitcoin that usually brought us in. 324 00:21:42,899 --> 00:21:44,639 And then we're like, oh, this is the greatest thing ever invented. 325 00:21:44,719 --> 00:21:46,119 Like, I'm going to like obsess about it. 326 00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:47,259 Most people are not like that. 327 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:50,659 Most people come in because they have a bit of financial exposure to it. 328 00:21:50,819 --> 00:21:51,799 And then they have to learn. 329 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:57,339 And so we're in this moment, I think, where more people are having exposure to Bitcoin and have skin in the game than have ever had it. 330 00:21:57,599 --> 00:21:59,279 So that's an exciting opportunity for education. 331 00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:00,719 Right. So I'm very hopeful. 332 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:06,719 Like there are now going to be millions more people with like open ears that are going to be curious to learn about Bitcoin. 333 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:20,019 And I think Bitcoiners now have this obligation to meet them where they are, to come with education materials, provide that easy on ramp that doesn't assume all the shibboleths, that isn't speaking in coded language or, you know, kind of the in-group canon. 334 00:22:20,019 --> 00:22:21,579 but like is digestible 335 00:22:21,579 --> 00:22:22,899 and it's like an easy way 336 00:22:22,899 --> 00:22:23,819 to get people to understand 337 00:22:23,819 --> 00:22:24,559 what this thing is 338 00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:25,219 and why it's important. 339 00:22:26,979 --> 00:22:28,719 It's definitely education is hard 340 00:22:28,719 --> 00:22:29,639 and it is hard too 341 00:22:29,639 --> 00:22:31,239 when you've been in space for a while 342 00:22:31,239 --> 00:22:32,739 to kind of go back to like 343 00:22:32,739 --> 00:22:33,899 where you were at 344 00:22:33,899 --> 00:22:34,799 at the very beginning 345 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:37,019 and maybe how your Bitcoin 346 00:22:37,019 --> 00:22:38,379 educational journey 347 00:22:38,379 --> 00:22:39,479 could have been improved. 348 00:22:40,199 --> 00:22:40,819 Yeah, I mean, 349 00:22:40,859 --> 00:22:41,859 I think there was a whole batch 350 00:22:41,859 --> 00:22:42,919 of Bitcoiners who created 351 00:22:42,919 --> 00:22:43,699 in the pandemic 352 00:22:43,699 --> 00:22:45,139 and they were just on Clubhouse 353 00:22:45,139 --> 00:22:46,219 listening to Twitter spaces 354 00:22:46,219 --> 00:22:48,019 or listening to Clubhouse spaces 355 00:22:48,019 --> 00:22:49,079 and then now it's Twitter spaces. 356 00:22:49,079 --> 00:23:13,359 Those are maybe not the best didactic tools. I think some of them were great, but like, you know, they're shouting fast or people in there that are just making stuff up and, you know, you challenge ideas, but you learn, you know, that's one way, but that's probably not the most efficient way to get, you know, a million people to like understand what this thing is. And so developing digestible content and making it resonate with people that, you know, come from a very different place than most Bitcoiners would be very important. 357 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:21,159 Totally. Last question. You could leave our listeners with a single thought about Bitcoin or anything else. What would it be? 358 00:23:21,159 --> 00:23:25,239 reality is malleable. 359 00:23:26,299 --> 00:23:27,619 I think one of the lessons 360 00:23:27,619 --> 00:23:28,859 I've taken over the past year 361 00:23:28,859 --> 00:23:30,879 is just how one contingent 362 00:23:30,879 --> 00:23:32,379 like world historical events are 363 00:23:32,379 --> 00:23:34,899 and how much like individual agency 364 00:23:34,899 --> 00:23:37,059 can do to shape the developments there. 365 00:23:37,479 --> 00:23:40,319 Like there are thousands of different 366 00:23:40,319 --> 00:23:42,759 little micro movements that happen 367 00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:44,599 in the world on any given day. 368 00:23:44,919 --> 00:23:47,079 And like more people than I think 369 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:48,539 recognize the fact that they might be 370 00:23:48,539 --> 00:23:50,279 in a position to shift some of those moments. 371 00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:51,939 and those can have dramatic outcomes. 372 00:23:52,059 --> 00:23:54,419 I think Bitcoin, the community that I've kind of, 373 00:23:54,419 --> 00:23:55,799 you know, plugged into the last few years 374 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:58,079 is remarkably small in terms of like 375 00:23:58,079 --> 00:23:59,979 the degree of close-knitness 376 00:23:59,979 --> 00:24:01,419 and just the number of people involved. 377 00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:03,759 And yet that community of pretty small people 378 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:06,979 is actually having like world historical effects, I think. 379 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:08,399 I think this moment in time 380 00:24:08,399 --> 00:24:10,679 is one of high agency and high leverage. 381 00:24:11,139 --> 00:24:12,799 But it's like recognizing that you have that 382 00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:14,919 and then picking your spots, 383 00:24:15,459 --> 00:24:16,559 not being overconfident, 384 00:24:16,679 --> 00:24:18,259 but also not shying away from the moment 385 00:24:18,259 --> 00:24:19,279 that might present it to you. 386 00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:33,319 And I think Bitcoiners are now in this tussle where like, ooh, the government likes Bitcoin, but I'm suspicious of that. And it's right to be suspicious, but also it's an opportunity because the government is, at least in the United States, nominally by and for the people. 387 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:46,499 And so if you use your voice and actually engage, you can actually put your hands on the gears and be like, this is actually the direction that we could all push in. And it doesn't take a whole lot to actually push things in the right direction, at least from your perspective. 388 00:24:46,499 --> 00:24:49,199 And so, yeah, just this power of agency is the most thing. 389 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,499 I mean, I was maybe a late awakener to that idea. 390 00:24:53,939 --> 00:25:03,279 I was, you know, doing the grind consulting, you know, hustling out PowerPoint decks and realizing that the average CEO is just going to do their own thing regardless, right? 391 00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:04,319 I'm just a hired gun. 392 00:25:05,179 --> 00:25:06,919 And so realizing you can just not do that. 393 00:25:07,219 --> 00:25:10,179 You can be like, okay, well, that's not where I'm having the most high impact. 394 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,059 I'm going to do something where I can have the most high impact. 395 00:25:12,159 --> 00:25:14,499 So find that thing you can have the highest impact and just go do it. 396 00:25:14,499 --> 00:25:21,159 that's fantastic advice well thank you so much for joining the show if our listeners want to 397 00:25:21,159 --> 00:25:25,879 learn more about you or anything you would suggest that they read or follow anything you 398 00:25:25,879 --> 00:25:31,499 want to shout what should they do yeah we'll follow our work um at uh you know btc policy.org 399 00:25:31,499 --> 00:25:39,639 um we're a 501c3 non-profit we've got um a great team 10 full-time staff 20 23 24 fellows now we're 400 00:25:39,639 --> 00:25:44,659 always looking for new fellows that have a willingness to to lend their expertise and to 401 00:25:44,659 --> 00:25:49,819 write white papers or contribute to to research or or education on Capitol Hill. So, you know, 402 00:25:49,819 --> 00:25:54,079 we're just a think tank that produces, you know, jibber jabber about Bitcoin to try to, 403 00:25:54,079 --> 00:25:58,099 you know, change hearts and minds inside D.C. So if that appeals to you, like support or engage. 404 00:25:58,639 --> 00:26:03,239 Fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on again. And I hope you enjoy the rest of your time at 405 00:26:03,239 --> 00:26:07,119 Presidio Bitcoin and the Quantum Bitcoin Summit and have a great time in San Francisco. 406 00:26:07,539 --> 00:26:08,159 Thanks for having me. 407 00:26:08,219 --> 00:26:08,559 Of course. 408 00:26:09,639 --> 00:26:39,619 Thank you.