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Hello, and welcome to 21 and 21. I'm Haley Bercow, and today I'm speaking with Alex Pruden.

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Alex is the CEO of Project 11, an applied R&D lab focused on the intersection of quantum

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computing and cryptography. He's also the chairman of Alio and previously worked at

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Andreessen Horwitz and Coinbase. Before all that, he served in the Army Special Forces.

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Alex, welcome to Presidio Bitcoin.

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It's great to be here. Thank you.

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Of course, and thanks for getting here early before all the quantum fun kicks off.

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Early bird gets the worm, right?

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Yes.

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Cool.

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Well, we're just going to try to get through as many questions as we can in 21 minutes.

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Ready to go?

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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Let's do it.

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So first question.

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You've been a VC, a builder, and a soldier.

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What sparked your passion in cryptography?

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I discovered Bitcoin as a soldier working in the Middle East.

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I was introduced to Bitcoin working with the Syrian rebels originally.

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And, yeah, and the idea really stuck with me because it is a form Bitcoin and, you know, cryptography generally, but Bitcoin specifically enables you to put your wealth in your head, right?

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If you have a brain wallet, you can just memorize your private key and go across the border and start all over.

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So that concept for me, just since I was working among people who were refugees from Syria and a conflict, it was really powerful.

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And that's what inspired me to get into Bitcoin, which inspired me to get into crypto and then cryptography specifically at Stanford.

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And that's just how I've come to love all these like deeply cryptographic technologies like zero knowledge and quantum and stuff.

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So very cool.

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So can you maybe tell our listeners a little bit more about Project 11 and then the Q-Day clock?

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Yeah, sure.

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So Project 11, you've said it already, it's an applied lab at the intersection of cryptography, quantum computing.

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and I think maybe I'll just say this.

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The mission is really future-proofing

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and future-building.

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So we're not doomsdayers.

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I actually think quantum computer

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is a great thing for humanity.

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We want it to happen,

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but we need to prepare for it

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and obviously there's a lot of implications

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to systems like Bitcoin.

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So we need to future-proof those systems

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and apply post-quantum cryptography to them.

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This applies to a lot of things beyond Bitcoin,

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but Bitcoin is our initial focus.

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But future-building is kind of the second piece

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where we can leverage quantum mechanics

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and quantum computing

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to build new cryptographic primitives

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that I hope get integrated someday

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into a future Bitcoin protocol

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and just future, you know,

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and define the way we communicate

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and interact in the future.

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So, yeah, so those are the focus.

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That's the focus of the company.

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Like I said, right now,

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we're mainly focused on future proofing

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Bitcoin specifically.

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So we have our initial product

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called Yellow Pages,

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which I can talk a little bit more about later,

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but that's the high level.

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How would you even define

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like a future proofed,

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like quantum resistant Bitcoin?

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Like what does that really even like

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mean? Yeah. So Bitcoin is a system based on public key cryptography. And the assumptions underneath

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current techniques for public key cryptography are all broken in a world of a quantum computer.

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So those schemes all need to get replaced. And what that means for Bitcoin is the underlying

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protocol needs to be able to verify new signatures. And so you need to replace the signature scheme

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inside the protocol. And then every, I think this is the thing a lot of people miss is every single

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wallet, UTXO, holder of Bitcoin has to migrate, right? So you could, you know, the scheme,

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the Bitcoin is arguably not secure as long as there's any Bitcoin that is stealable,

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quote unquote, or gettable by a quantum computer. I mean, people may argue that point,

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but fundamentally, that's what you need to do. You need to fix the underlying system and you

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need to get everyone to migrate to the new one. Well, maybe elaborating that on a little bit more

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kind of what's one thing that people misunderstand about preparing for the post quantum world?

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So I mentioned that everyone has to migrate. And I think that's often one that people misunderstand. I think the other thing that most people, a lot of people misunderstand is I think there's an assumption that we'll see this coming from a long way away and there'll be time to prepare.

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and I don't believe that's a good assumption

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and I don't believe it's a good assumption

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because if you think about

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the use cases for a quantum computer

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you know the most near term use case

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is cryptanalysis

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and the most economically profitable way

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to apply cryptanalysis

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is by breaking Bitcoin

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but if you tell everyone

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that's what you're doing

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obviously you could imagine a world

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where some chaos is introduced in the markets

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maybe a price goes down

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maybe people sell

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you know

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you accelerate people adopting some defense.

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So really you're not incentivized to tell anybody that you have this capability.

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I mean, this is even true for governments if they had it and they didn't care about Bitcoin,

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that they just cared about listening to each other's emails or reading each other's emails.

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The point being is like, if you have this tech capability, you're not incentivized to share it.

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And so we may only find out about it after the fact,

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which is why I think the attitude of we can wait to see when more developments happen is misguided.

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And so I think that to me is a misperception.

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Yeah.

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Got it. What are you thinking about with the intersection of AI and Bitcoin?

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Honestly, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the intersection. I think about

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cryptography and Bitcoin being an application of cryptography as being a very valuable counterweight

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to AI. I think because cryptography is fundamentally about empowering individuals,

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right and like you not your keys not your crypto or your keys only your crypto right

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um and if i if you encrypt your messages i can't read them this is very like empowering to

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individuals ai is a very powerful tool but i view it as a very centralizing tool i mean it really

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only works because it's sucked up the data of the entire internet up to this point and as it gets

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better and better it kind of relies on being able to know what you doing and and you know and by By the way like in the hands of a few people I think it can be a very powerful tool of control And that why I think cryptography and Bitcoin is a very important antidote to that in this day and age

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Have you vibe coded anything cool?

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I have a blog that I have vibe coded.

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Yeah.

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So and it's fun.

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I mean, look, I don't want to like doomsday AI.

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I think AI is a powerful technology.

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But I think, you know, cryptography is also important.

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That's it.

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Yeah, I've played with all the tools.

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Vibe coding is kind of fun.

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working with a bunch of very deeply technical engineers

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who focus on cryptography.

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If I were them, I would not be worried at all

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about being replaced by an AI.

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I think it can do front-end things.

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It can do simple stuff.

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But I think the deep subject matter expertise

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and high-stakes scenarios,

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I think it's a long way away from being able to do.

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So having kind of this passion in cryptography

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and this unique path to kind of falling down this rabbit hole,

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what narrative really spoke most to you that you think we could maybe like encourage others who are

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maybe not bitcoiners but have an interest in cryptography to like either work on bitcoin or

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kind of really start thinking more about it i mean maybe unique to me is i would say um that

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i mean i'm very passionate about the cryptography and uh but i didn't start out being very technical

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I was a Green Beret. I was a soldier. I didn't have a background at all in anything related to math or cryptography. And I got into it. And I think what I have kind of discovered through this process is it's amazing how much you can learn over time and how much knowledge you can build over time and approaching something like Bitcoin with a humble attitude and not pretending like you know everything, but just trying to learn something new every day.

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And by the way, Bitcoin isn't a very complicated and complex thing, right?

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There are many dimensions to it.

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That goes double when you start expanding beyond Bitcoin.

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But I think people who want to work on Bitcoin, who maybe are interested in the ideas that

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it represents, should be inspired by my story, potentially.

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Because I started from zero.

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And now I'm contributing in the way that I've described already.

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And I think anyone can do what I did.

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So I don't know.

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How did you even start?

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Were you watching YouTube videos, podcasts, books?

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Yeah.

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That was one of the less technical backgrounds.

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I mean, I was kind of just watching YouTube videos.

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And then I was fortunate to get to go to Stanford for my MBA.

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But I was moonlighting in the computer science school learning cryptography.

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And I did what I don't recommend doing this.

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But I skipped the basic computer science classes.

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I just kind of started straight with cryptography.

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But yeah, I just basically, I threw myself in situations that were uncomfortable and forced

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myself to learn.

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And it was hard.

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It took a while.

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but you got to start somewhere.

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I mean,

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it's kind of,

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I guess maybe the takeaway is

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don't worry about where to start,

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start somewhere.

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Have you read any recent books

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or listened to any articles

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or podcasts recently

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that have really like blew your mind

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or you want to recommend?

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Oh yeah.

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Well,

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so I just finished Life and Fate

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by Vasily Grossman.

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It's a piece of Russian literature

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in the 20th century.

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It's excellent.

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And I guess maybe the intersection

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between that book and Bitcoin

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is a big theme of that book

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is human freedom

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and kind of the innate desire

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of people to be free.

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And I think, you know,

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this is obviously very consistent

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with stuff that like Alex Gladstein says

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from the HRF,

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I think Bitcoin is free to money

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and Bitcoin empowers you

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like because it's a cryptographic tool.

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So definitely recommend Life and Fate.

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It's, you know,

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as you would expect of Russian literature,

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it's quite long,

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but it's very worth a read.

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I'll check it out.

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What do you think a world

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on the Bitcoin standard

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would look like in an ideal way for you?

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You know, honestly, I think it would look like

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individuals are broadly comfortable managing

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and taking care of or being responsible

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holders of their own cryptographic key material.

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I think, you know,

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and this is one of the perennial challenges

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with cryptography is this UI problem of,

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cryptographic objects and keys are easy to lose and it's hard to manage. I think that's what drives

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a lot of people towards centralized solutions, which kind of defeat the point. I think maybe

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I'll describe what I don't want to see first. What I don't want to see is the Bitcoin standard is

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adopted, but the only way you can send Bitcoin is through some centralized gateway. It's like,

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what are we even doing at that point? So I hope that the world, as the Bitcoin standard becomes

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a reality, I hope that we retain this self-sovereignty that was just a critical part of why Satoshi

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started it all.

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And I don't think that can be taken for granted at all.

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I mean, if you look at Bitcoin and the majority of holdings, it is not on individual wallets

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and most people don't do these basics.

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And there's two levels of that.

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One is people, I think, need to have more agency and they need to take more ownership

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that this is important.

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They need to invest in learning and understanding this and understand the stakes.

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And two, I think there's a lot of new, cool cryptographic and just technological ways to make that experience easier for people. So I'm hopeful those happen.

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Hopeful too. Are there any specific projects in the Bitcoin space that you're excited about right now?

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So you mentioned I was...

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So aside from P11,

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so that's what I spend most of my time on

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is focusing on the quantum stuff.

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But aside from that,

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as I mentioned,

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or you mentioned,

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I'm the president of the board

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for the Alio Foundation

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and Alio was a zero-knowledge

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cryptography company.

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And so there's a lot of interesting stuff

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happening with Bitcoin and ZK these days.

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So there's BitVM and Citria.

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I think it mostly focused around using ZK

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to help Bitcoin scalability.

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And I think those are both really cool.

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Yeah, so ZK on Bitcoin

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is something that I think is interesting Maybe in layman terms can you tell our listeners what ZK on Bitcoin is Sure Yeah So I mean first off what zero knowledge cryptography It basically a cryptographic technique to prove a fact without revealing it true and do so in a

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synced way. So you can prove a long statement with a short proof. That second piece is really

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how this is applied on Bitcoin because Bitcoin blocks a lot of transactions and over time,

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the blockchain gets large. And I think there's a desire for clients to be able to sync faster in a

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more trustless way without having to rely on a third party. And so you can generate cryptographic

247
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proofs saying like, hey, this series of blocks, all the transactions were correct. And you don't

248
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have to go through and verify all the signatures individually. So really, for the purposes of ZK

249
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on Bitcoin, the takeaway for everyone should be that this helps to compress the chain and make it

250
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more accessible to verify. Thank you for explaining that. No problem.

251
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What do you think the role of stable coins should be?

252
00:12:44,673 --> 00:12:50,793
Well, I think it's naive to assume that there will not be fiat currencies going forward.

253
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I think, you know, fundamentally, we live in a system of sovereign states, governments.

254
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We don't live, you know, that's the world we live in. And I think for a variety of reasons,

255
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those sovereign states and governments will issue their own currencies. So I think it's inevitable

256
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that stable coins will exist. As many fiat currencies as exist, stable coins will exist.

257
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And I think for a lot of reasons, that's a good thing. I think if you look at payments, for example,

258
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the preponderance of people prefer to conduct business in something that has a stable value,

259
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right? And this is kind of a benefit of something like a fiat currency.

260
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but obviously there are drawbacks

261
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which we're all

262
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we're obviously all living through

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in an era of inflation

264
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and like M2 money supply increasing

265
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and so this is why I think

266
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something like Bitcoin

267
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is very good

268
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because it's an escape valve

269
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from when those systems get abused

270
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so in short

271
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I see these things as

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I mean both of them

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stable coins are issued on blockchains

274
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and blockchain technology

275
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is kind of more inherently decentralized

276
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than the banking system

277
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so I think that's great

278
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and I think as instances of cryptocurrencies

279
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I think they balance each other out

280
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in many ways

281
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I think both are important

282
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Do you have any spicy Bitcoin takes?

283
00:14:05,254 --> 00:14:06,493
Ooh, spicy Bitcoin takes.

284
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I think my spiciest take is just,

285
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is that not to take for granted

286
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that price of Bitcoin

287
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equates to success of Bitcoin.

288
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I think, like I said,

289
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and I think, you know,

290
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especially these days,

291
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there's a lot of companies

292
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that are doing treasury strategies

293
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and a lot of big economic actors that have come into the space. And I don't think many of those

294
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people share the values of Satoshi and the early cypherpunks or the values that I think make

295
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this technology unique. And so I think while we can celebrate prices at all-time highs,

296
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and that's great, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that there's still a long way

297
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to go to actually really get Bitcoin adoption, not just in terms of like as an asset class,

298
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but in terms of the values that it represents. And that can't be taken for granted. And I think

299
00:15:05,113 --> 00:15:11,493
it sometimes is. For sure. Speaking about having a long way to go, are there any kind of projects

300
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that you would be excited about seeing other people build to help get to a future you want to see?

301
00:15:18,313 --> 00:15:23,573
Yeah, well, there's always a need for better wallets. I think there's a lot of great opportunity

302
00:15:23,573 --> 00:15:32,053
to, I think, build in newer forms of online identity

303
00:15:32,053 --> 00:15:34,953
into blockchains like Bitcoin.

304
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And so you need to kind of solve

305
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and going back to something I said earlier,

306
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that's a challenge for adoption is UX.

307
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It's always tricky, public key management.

308
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I think there's a lot of interesting approaches

309
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to use, for example, zero-knowledge cryptography

310
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to be able to prove that you're a real person

311
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inside of potentially a transaction on chain,

312
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stuff like that, I think is really cool.

313
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So I think products that help improve the UX for people and help onboard them into, again, like being their own self-sovereign agents in this world is something that I'm really excited about.

314
00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:14,673
Definitely. The UX needs to be easy for people who want to use it. It's definitely improving a lot, but there's still a ways to go.

315
00:16:14,973 --> 00:16:22,533
Yeah, like it's improving a lot. And I think everyone always says this and it sounds like a cop out, but, you know, like the Internet.

316
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was you i think it was the internet was around for 20 years before a browser even existed right

317
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and so um these things take time and it takes a while to understand how people use them and

318
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obviously as as adoption grows and different use cases happen there are new kind of ux needs and

319
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so this is this is not something that happens overnight it's kind of a perennial thing that

320
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has to adapt because people adapt right people change people evolve and so i think that you know

321
00:16:47,333 --> 00:16:50,633
that's why i think it's important to always stay on top of it and not just settle and this is

322
00:16:50,633 --> 00:16:55,433
something actually maybe just as a slightly other spicy take is that this is and by the way what i'm

323
00:16:55,433 --> 00:17:00,733
about to say bitcoin is true of every cryptocurrency the vast majority of intellectual energy goes into

324
00:17:00,733 --> 00:17:06,253
protocol improvements which are very important but going back to the quantum thing like there's this

325
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aspect where users have to migrate right and this is actually a project 11 like the problem that

326
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we're tackling there are people like hunter and the enduro folks that focus on bit 360 and i think

327
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that's all great the protocol has to get adjusted but i think there is this real ux problem emerges

328
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you have to move assets for one or the other. And I think a lot of energy gets paid or a lot of

329
00:17:24,113 --> 00:17:28,553
attention and energy gets put on the protocol level because it's kind of fun to comment on.

330
00:17:28,633 --> 00:17:32,073
And there's like a lot of interesting, cool stuff. But there's a lot of really important

331
00:17:32,073 --> 00:17:45,370
low fruit frankly at the UX level that I think people should pay more attention to Definitely It will be interesting to see kind of different ideas that come up to make that kind of easiest as possible Definitely

332
00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:48,970
Well, you are cruising through these questions. I appreciate it.

333
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:54,210
Okay. A few more questions. How do you think companies can

334
00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:58,110
best support open source developers and software?

335
00:17:59,650 --> 00:18:00,390
Pay them.

336
00:18:00,390 --> 00:18:02,590
is the easiest answer.

337
00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:03,990
Yeah, I think pay them.

338
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:07,490
I think, or alternative to paying them directly,

339
00:18:07,670 --> 00:18:11,070
I think they can contribute to nonprofit organizations

340
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:12,810
that basically incentivize the creation

341
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of this open source software.

342
00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:20,470
You know, and lastly, look, I think blockchains

343
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are kind of an incredible mechanism

344
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to incentivize the development of open source software.

345
00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:28,530
Let me just use zero-knowledge cryptography as an example.

346
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I mean, zero-knowledge cryptography has been around for almost as long as AI. And it was just not practical for 30 years. And many people thought it was never going to be practical. And then there was a cryptocurrency called Zcash, which actually kind of grew out of the Bitcoin community and emphasized privacy. And it used zero-knowledge cryptography.

347
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And that kind of led to an explosion of different protocols and development around these protocols that accelerated to the point where, like I said, you can use like these things are production ready enough to implement in Bitcoin, like do real time proving for identity and all kinds of things. So it's, it's, it's a great, that's, I mean, blockchain technology generally, or like decentralized blockchains are a great way to incentivize open source. But yeah, look, I think the challenge is always the public goods problem. People want the best thing and they don't want to pay for the best thing.

348
00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:18,390
And, you know, that's a good short-term strategy.

349
00:19:18,770 --> 00:19:19,790
It's a bad long-term strategy.

350
00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:23,850
And, you know, I think that's something I would ask companies to remember.

351
00:19:24,590 --> 00:19:24,950
Totally agree.

352
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:26,130
Someone that works at Spiral.

353
00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:26,930
I'm very pro.

354
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:29,510
Companies paying open source developers.

355
00:19:31,490 --> 00:19:32,170
Switching gears.

356
00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:38,310
What's something that you learned while you were in the Army Special Forces that shapes how you lead or build today?

357
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:39,870
Wow.

358
00:19:39,870 --> 00:19:48,810
I guess maybe one thing I learned culturally is that, you know, I've been all over the world.

359
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I've been to Afghanistan.

360
00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:50,470
I've been to Iraq.

361
00:19:50,750 --> 00:19:51,310
I've been to Turkey.

362
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:52,650
I've trained a bunch of other places.

363
00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:53,790
I've worked with Syrians.

364
00:19:55,330 --> 00:19:59,090
And people aren't that different from each other world over.

365
00:19:59,390 --> 00:20:03,070
I mean, it's easy, I think, if you just watch the news and be like, you know, it's like

366
00:20:03,070 --> 00:20:07,990
Muslims or Jews and Christians and Americans and French or Russians and South Africans.

367
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:29,330
You know, it's easy to like figure out these, you know, in group out groups in your head. But I think when you get down and you have a conversation like we're having, it's it's there's far more that unites us than divides us. And I think that's one of the reasons why I think something like crypto and Bitcoin is so universal, because I think it's empowering in a way that all people find valuable.

368
00:20:29,330 --> 00:20:54,490
And, you know, I think, frankly, many people outside of the U.S., even more so than within it, see the value proposition for that self-sovereignty that I was describing earlier. But yeah, that's something that I took away that I'm very happy for my army career to have given me was this appreciation for people, even in like the mountains of Afghanistan who don't even know what a computer looks like. They kind of want the same things as everybody else, like people down the street from me in Montana. So.

369
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:56,030
So it's very interesting.

370
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:57,750
Yes, Bitcoin is very cool

371
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:59,830
that it is such a universal currency

372
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and something that can connect us all.

373
00:21:02,170 --> 00:21:02,410
Definitely.

374
00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:02,970
Yeah.

375
00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:04,750
Okay, last question.

376
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:05,130
Okay.

377
00:21:05,250 --> 00:21:06,450
If you could leave our listeners

378
00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:08,390
with a single thought about Bitcoin,

379
00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:08,990
what would it be?

380
00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:14,510
Celebrate its successes,

381
00:21:15,210 --> 00:21:19,610
but don't underestimate the task ahead.

382
00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:20,890
There's no guarantee

383
00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:22,750
that the success to date guarantees

384
00:21:22,750 --> 00:21:24,110
that this will be something in the future.

385
00:21:24,110 --> 00:21:33,210
And that success will be guaranteed by people's continued contributions.

386
00:21:34,270 --> 00:21:36,490
To use an analogy for like the army, right?

387
00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:41,010
Like it's kind of, I think there's a quote, like liberty is maintained through the blood

388
00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:41,930
of patriots kind of thing.

389
00:21:42,010 --> 00:21:44,890
It's like kind of this way people try and convince you to join the army.

390
00:21:45,030 --> 00:21:49,190
But similarly to open source software and Bitcoin in particular, like the work is never

391
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:49,590
done.

392
00:21:49,650 --> 00:21:50,730
It always continues.

393
00:21:50,730 --> 00:22:05,070
And I think this is why it's important that for people that feel passionate about it, to not be afraid to contribute and not be afraid to contribute in any way they can to the discussion, to the technical parts, to both, to learn to do one or the other.

394
00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:07,530
And not just be a user.

395
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:08,950
Back to the open source software thing.

396
00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:11,570
Yeah, companies should pay, I think, open source developers.

397
00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:14,910
But look, people also have to want to contribute.

398
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:17,470
They have to pay in the sense of like, this is a community effort.

399
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:19,410
There's not a Bitcoin company, right?

400
00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:24,410
we are all the Bitcoin company. And there's the same public goods risk that everyone just phones

401
00:22:24,410 --> 00:22:28,870
it in, takes it for granted. And then suddenly we're in that bad world that I described earlier,

402
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:32,170
where like, yeah, Bitcoin exists, but like you can only access through your bank account. And

403
00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:35,750
then what are we doing? Right. And that has to be fought for. And so that's the thought I would

404
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:41,230
leave everyone with. It's a great lasting thought. So if our listeners want to learn more about you,

405
00:22:41,390 --> 00:22:44,750
follow along with what you're doing, what should they do, where should they go?

406
00:22:44,750 --> 00:23:06,830
Yeah. So X is kind of where you just find me. I'm on Noster, but I haven't posted as much there. So I'd say X. apruden08 is my handle. Project11.com is our website. And there's a blog there. So I've authored some stuff there. And the personal blog that I'm in the process of vibe coding is sadly not live yet.

407
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:09,810
But it is going to be called Homo Universalis.

408
00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:13,710
I have bought the domain name, Homo Universalis.xyz.

409
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:16,750
So maybe someday people can go there and there will be something.

410
00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:20,150
But anyway, X probably is the best place to start a prudent zero-eight.

411
00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:22,730
Well, keep a lookout for your Vibe Coded website.

412
00:23:23,050 --> 00:23:23,290
Great.

413
00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:25,250
Thank you so much for hopping on the show.

414
00:23:25,390 --> 00:23:28,910
I hope you enjoy the rest of your time at Presidio Bitcoin and the Quantum Bitcoin Summit.

415
00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:29,770
Thanks so much.

416
00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:30,310
It was really fun.

417
00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:30,730
Of course.

418
00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:31,110
Thank you.