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Welcome to 21 and 21. I'm Haley Burko, and today I'm speaking with Taj Dreja.

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Taj is a Bitcoin developer, researcher, and well-known as the co-creator of the Lightning Network.

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He spent years advancing Bitcoin scalability and privacy with past roles at MIT Digital Currency Initiatives, Lightning Labs, and LightSpark.

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Taj, welcome to Presidio Bitcoin.

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Thanks. Great to be here.

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Yes. Thank you for getting here bright and early to record this podcast.

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No problem. East Coast time for me. So, yeah.

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You're up and ready to go. Cool. We're just going to get right into it. 21 minutes. Let's go.

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First question. So you've obviously done a lot. What's top of mind for you right now?

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Top of mind. I'm actually a little worried. It feels like, you know, Bitcoin is currently about

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at its highest price ever in dollar terms and you know close and many other currencies but it is a

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sort of weird like are people actually using it like blocks are sort of empty sometimes sort of

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full uh it's all these like etfs and stuff um and actually i'm here you know for this interview but

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also in in san francisco for a conference about post-quantum bitcoin and i'm kind of worried about

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that as well because it feels like it could be another big controversial thing that divides a lot

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of people who work on Bitcoin. And hopefully it isn't. But yeah, so it's this kind of weird thing

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where it's like, I'm worried more about Bitcoin, despite it, like maybe from an external appearance

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being like, everything's great. Like, it's awesome. Price goes up. So it's like, yeah,

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we still haven't really solved scalability and long term fees and post quantum and all these

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things. So I guess top of mind is, how do we like not get complacent? Or how do we like translate

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this to getting more people on board to working on it rather than just sort of like party

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ossification everything's great so that's what I think about a lot. Yes you're here for the

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quantum bitcoin summit which kicks off in a couple hours. We got here early to get this in beforehand

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yeah and so that is clearly top of mind for you and lots of other people working on like a diverse

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range of things and so i saw you recently proposed a quantum resistance upgrade yeah maybe in layman's

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terms for our listeners if that's possible can you kind of talk a little bit more about what that's

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about sure so i think the the goal of it is basically have something where your coins can be

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safe today um without almost any changes to bitcoin um you still so i i came up like i haven't posted

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but I came up with a catchy name for it, Lifeboat, where it's like, okay, like it's not the way you

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get around, but it's like, if your main thing stops working, you have a lifeboat, right? You're okay.

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And you can sort of get around with that. But the main idea is you can use a sort of commit reveal

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scheme where your Bitcoins normally are secured by your private key. And it's like, you know,

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not your keys, not your coins. Like this key is the most important thing. But most Bitcoins are

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protected by another thing called pay to pub key hash. So you don't actually post your direct pub

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key, you post the hash. The quantum computer in theory would break this sort of private key in

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that if it sees a public key, it can get the private key, but it cannot from a hash get the

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public key. So you sort of still have a secret. It's just that now your secret is your public key

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and you can kind of use that to move Bitcoin around. It's not good, right? It's like way worse,

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but it is a way to say like hey you don't have to panic like if this actually does happen

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you can still move your coins your coins are basically safe but it's slower and it's sort

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of awkward and you need to change the software but it's like you don't have to do anything right

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now it's not like oh everyone needs to upgrade everyone needs to migrate so it's it's a sort of

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like reassuring like here's how we can deal with this if this problem happens so is this something

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that you think developers should mainly be thinking about or will end users and i guess

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wallets also be effective and have to do something yeah i i guess it's mostly developers i think if

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there's one sort of takeaway for average you know people who are not programming it but like bitcoin

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and use it is don't reuse addresses uh that's the one i mean that's already been something

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developers have sort of said for ever like hey just use an address once um but i totally understand

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that like people it's inconvenient and and you know doesn't doesn't always work but um the a lot

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as far as i know most of the quantum recovery schemes it work a lot better if you haven't

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used addresses more than once um so if you like it and to be technical it's if you receive multiple

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payments on the same address that doesn't really break it but it's if you've received then sent

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and like spent that those coins and then received again that means the public key is now

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you know, broadcast to everyone.

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So that's sort of a problem.

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So basically the only takeaway for users is like,

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and this is a lot of times wallet software

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also has to implement it,

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is, you know,

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try not to use addresses more than once.

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That's like the safest.

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Maybe again, in layman's terms,

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just we have a broad range of listeners

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kind of even talk about

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why we're even really concerned

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about quantum computers in the first place.

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Right.

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So it's kind of weird

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because like I'm not super,

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like my personal opinion is like,

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this is probably not going to happen.

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but I do worry that there's enough people that think it will that it could be a problem.

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So the idea is Bitcoin is secured by sort of two things.

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There's the proof of work, which is like hash functions.

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And then there's the signatures, which are elliptic curve signatures.

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And if you're not familiar with these, they seem like,

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okay, they're both these sort of math things.

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If you really look at it the hash functions aren really math They just sort of like these random you know like hey take this number and then swap it with that number and then like you know shuffle it around and then look at it backwards And they like

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there's no real mathematical theory behind it.

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It's kind of like, it's fun and it seems to work,

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but there's, it's like, okay, that works.

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And then there's the elliptic curve signatures,

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which are sort of more like fancy math.

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The problem is there's this area of research

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called quantum computing,

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where it's like, hey,

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if we make this special kind of computer,

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which we haven't really gotten to work yet,

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it could break the elliptic curve signatures.

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The idea that like right now with elliptic curves,

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you have a private key, which is just a random number.

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You essentially multiply it by this point on a curve,

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which is this complicated sort of graph thing.

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And then you have a public key.

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And the idea is no one can figure out your private key

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from your public key.

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But one of the things that a quantum computer can do

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is figure out your private key from your public key.

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And this is a this is a paper by a researcher named Shores. It's called Shores algorithm from like 1994. And so everyone's sort of known forever for far, far before Bitcoin was even invented that if a quantum computer existed, yeah, all this ECDSA stuff, all this RSA stuff, it would all be broken. It wouldn't be useful anymore. But it hasn't mattered because these computers don't exist.

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and so i've i've talked to people for years or like hey what about post you know what about

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quantum computers um and most bitcoin people sort of dismissed it for some reason it's gotten more

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popular in the last couple years two years maybe and i think it's there's maybe some progress in

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like research i'm like oh we're we're making you know getting closer to making these things

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i'm still pretty skeptical that it will happen any time in the next 10 20 30 years it seems very far

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off. But it is it is a risk. It's sort of like, well, if it happened and it just breaks all keys,

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like that's kind of the end of Bitcoin. Like, what do you do? So I do think it makes sense to

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prepare for it, even if you think it's not that likely. Maybe like the boom in AI and how fast

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technology has been moving in other sectors is like making people more concerned or. Yeah, I mean,

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they're not like I have heard that from people, but it's like they're not related. Like AI is

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completely different hardware, completely different software. And then the quantum

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computers are like really more of physics, science experiments. Um, but of course, I mean,

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of course there's people are like, Oh yeah, quantum AI, you know, like anytime there's anything,

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it's like people raise money and sort of sell it. Um, I've talked to people who work on quantum

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computing and it's like, yeah, this is, it's not something that works yet, but it's like really

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interesting research. And so, yeah, there is more fear about it. I think it's a bit overblown,

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but at the same time, it's like, no, we should have a plan, right? Because even if I think

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there's only a 1% chance of this happening in the next 10 years, well, multiply Bitcoin's,

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whatever it is, 2 trillion times 1%, okay, that's still like a ton of money. It's still very worth

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making sure that even the somewhat unlikely problems are dealt with. Because that's sort

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of all of Bitcoin, like, I don't know, if you run Bitcoin and you have a full node with

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all the blocks, you still have like almost 200 gigabytes of these rev files.

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It's only there for reorgs.

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It's never going to happen.

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And like, you know, like half the code in Lightning Network is dealing with like justice

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transactions and they like never happen.

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You know, so it's sort of like, yeah, most of Bitcoin is working on these like scenarios

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that never happen to make sure that they don't screw things up.

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So I think it's like very much in keeping.

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It's like, OK, let's have like a detailed good plan for quantum computing, even though it may never happen.

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It's just like we're ready for it.

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Definitely good to have a plan.

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Well, I'm excited to hear all the conversations that happen in the next day and a half.

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And hopefully we'll all have a lot to think about and share after that.

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So we were kind of briefly just talking about this, that it seems like maybe there's a lot of people that could be interested in Bitcoin,

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especially maybe universities that haven't like fully jumped in how do you think we can get this

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kind of like next generation and future minds to be excited about bitcoin it's hard it'd be it so

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like i don't tell people i work on bitcoin like it's like i ran an office and like i'm just like

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oh i work on cryptography or something because it's like it's gotten very political right so

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So like I went to the Las Vegas Bitcoin conference a few like a month or two ago.

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And it's got like, I don't know, all it's like, you know, the vice president of the United States of America spoke.

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I didn't go to that because like I don't think he knows.

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I don't think he's going to tell me anything.

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I don't know about Bitcoin.

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But anyway, it's just like, yeah, when it started, it was sort of this anarchist, decentralized, you know, like separate money in state kind of thing.

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um and now it's like you know and i i think i coined the term bitcoin is the currency of enemies

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when i was talking about discrete law contract and it's like yeah like i might not like some

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politicians or i might not like any of them right like i i sort of got into bitcoin because i'm like

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oh this seems like a really cool way to like not have the sort of standard governments that we have

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and it's sort of even you know better than democracy in some ways um so it's it's gotten

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that way but it doesn't have to be right like the bitcoin itself it's just this currency anyone can

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use it um so i think if it stays around through this and you know and then other you know different

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types of people like it more then it's sort of okay to work on um but i i think it's any time

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the price goes up and people who are not involved to some extent it pushes them away and they're

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like well you know there this like jealousy thing and it like oh I knew about it back in 2015 but I thought it was stupid and it didn buy any You might not It might be hard to say well I guess it not stupid It might be just like no no it stupid because now it worth a thousand times more or something So it is it a hard sort of controversial thing to work on

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Um, and I think another issue with it is, you know, 90, whatever percent of the Bitcoins have been mined. Uh, I've, you know, taught students and like, sometimes I think of that, like it's, it's going to be hard to get more new people. There are new people coming on. I think that's great. But at the same time, it's like when I started, I could mine Bitcoins with my GPU, right? This is like 2012. And, you know, I could get a couple and like, hold on to them or, you know, maybe I didn't, but whatever.

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but if you like talk to someone who's like 18 today and like starting college it's like well

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when bitcoin came out like they were who or something you know like there's no way they

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could have gotten into this and now it's like there's so many you know it was it is a very

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front-loaded thing um and so it's sort of like man four years for having is pretty quick you know

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the first four years half of all bitcoin that'll ever exist got mine and like probably a lot of

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those are lost but it is a sort of it makes it a little more difficult to like get lots of people

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involved because there's a perception that like, okay, this is already, you know, it's done.

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And it's definitely not. But at the same time, like, I think it's super important. And it's,

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you know, the world is getting sort of more techno dystopian. And I think that Bitcoin can

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like help a lot with these things. So there's definitely still people like getting involved

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and really interested in it. So that's great. Seems like that with the rise of AI, and there's

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It's maybe easier to become a builder that for certain people, that's kind of fun.

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And Bitcoin can unlock a lot of different things.

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In a more optimistic note, what's happening today that gives you the most hope for Bitcoin's future?

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So there's a much better ecosystem of development than there was even a few years.

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You know, there's like Presidio Bitcoin.

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It's like, wow, all these people are working on it.

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There's all these different organizations.

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um there's a lot of funding there's a lot more people getting into development um of bitcoin

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and so i think that's great um this and and it's like an actual way you can like make money and

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work on things and even though it's open source like when it started there was no way to make

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money it was like completely volunteer um and now i think it's great that there are stable like

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it's sort of a career kind of like i've worked on it for over 10 years and it's like yeah that's

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That's how I make money.

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I work on Bitcoin stuff.

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Like it works.

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So I think that's like really hopeful.

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And also it's getting more.

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It does feel like it's sort of like crypto,

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like all the, I don't know, NFT, DeFi,

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like all this other stuff has sort of died down

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and people are like, wait,

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actually Bitcoin's kind of useful.

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Even if it doesn't do all these other random things

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that we were looking at,

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because that's from the beginning.

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I was like, I think money's enough, right?

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Like, I think if you like remake money, like you don't really have to do other things.

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Um, and I think that's getting hold of where people are like, oh yeah, like it's money

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and that's really important.

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Um, so I think that's, that's a really good trend.

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And I think also people arguing about it is also good.

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Like there's, there's people arguing about all these somewhat, I think somewhat silly

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things like people were arguing about like filters and spam and op return and all these

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things.

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and I think they're not particularly important right like I don't in the big picture like these

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are pretty small details of bitcoin but it is a cool way that like people are learning about it

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and they're like oh I want it like I need to run a node so I can run knots it's like well I think

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that's kind of silly but sure run a node right um same same with a year or two ago there's like

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what is it ordinals and brc20 and all this stuff I think it's kind of dumb but people were running

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nodes because of it people were learning about bitcoin because of it and so it's like even if

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this is a use case you think is kind of silly or maybe it's a fad, it still gets people involved.

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And if people are like, oh, I got involved in Bitcoin because of like, you know, JPEG, NFTs,

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but now I realize it's actually useful. Like, okay, great. Like, so it's sort of whatever

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weird thing that people might complain about, it still gets people involved. And then once,

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you know, not all of them, but once they start working on Bitcoin and using it,

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a lot of people stick around. They're like, okay, actually, this is pretty cool.

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tension is good yes yeah do you have any dream projects that you would like to see

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somebody build i mean i don't know what a dream project um i think we're still

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a way i think we're still it's still hard to use it's still like i help a bunch of people

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use bitcoin it's still hard to like run a full node have a wallet with it um even little things

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like BIP39 seed phrases, 39, 30, aren't supported in Bitcoin core. Right. And that would be something

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cool. Like that's a pretty easy thing to put in. So there's lots of little things like that,

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but I think usability is a hard one where there's a lot of people who leave money on exchange or

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something like that. It's just because they're too scared to use an actual node and run it

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themselves. And so, you know, that's a hard problem, but I think, and we're, you know,

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getting there but that's something i would want to see and then let's see dream project

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i don't know that it's like project like there's lots of cool things being built and

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i want to build lots of things too and like never get around to it um so so but i think one of the

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big ones is like okay we we still need to work on usability um and then i guess the other dream

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that I think would be cool which people might disagree I think client diversity is a good thing Like I think part of the idea in bitcoin is like it open source that doesn just mean you can like look at the code it means you can write the

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whole thing from scratch if you want and i know a lot of people say like no that's a bad idea don't

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do this um but i feel like long term it it can't it shouldn't just be you know core or it's like a

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group of people that work on this one software project because you you don't want to be seen as

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in control and so i feel like as it gets more bigger and like more political and government

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starts saying like hey what is bitcoin like maybe we want to regulate this because that's what we do

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um i think it would be better if there were multiple implementations that were actually used

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um because then it's easier to sort of say like well we were just working on this software

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right but if it's 99% of the nodes run this software it's a sort of point where people can

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say hey why don't you change your software um so that's sort of a dream project that maybe someday

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there will be like a several competitive and like you know very compatible like implementations

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we're not we have btcd and like people work on that and i think it's cool um but it's you know

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right now it's sort of bitcoin core is the one everyone the best one that has all the mindshare

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which is like it makes sense um but as it gets bigger like yeah maybe we could have all the other

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implementation so i know and i know people disagree but yeah we'll see what happens things

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have changed a lot since you've been in the space so you're at mit's digital currency initiative um

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how do you think uh which does a great job of funding that we can better support open source

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developers what can companies or universities do that that's helpful it's so the fun like the

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funding and open source landscapes like way better than it used to be um one of the things i'm looking

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at is like education um so and that's that's one of the things i wonder about too is if there are

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people who are interested in this like all around the world is you are universities the best way or

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as like some kind of online thing or in person so i guess here presidio bitcoin has you know a lot

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of people coming um but yeah like how to get people educated and involved in like building

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these things um there's and it's not that there's no one doing this there's tons of people doing it

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but i think it's still really important that like either students or people who are already you know

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working on computer stuff learn how it works and also like education for people who might not be

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programmers but want to know how this stuff works um so i like a cool story is like my dad didn't

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buy bitcoin and i was like tell him hey the bitcoin and then he's like i don't understand

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it so i'm not gonna buy it which is like okay and then he sort of retired he still works part-time

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he sort of retired and then i saw him at like thanksgiving he's like so how do they determine

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the generator point of the elliptic curve i'm like whoa okay so and then he like bought some bitcoin

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right because he's like i get it now like you know learn about it so so i think that's a big part as

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you you don't want or i personally i think it's a little dangerous if you have a huge user base

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that doesn't really know about how it works right they're just like oh it's bitcoin you just

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buy etfs or buy micro strategy and it goes up and you make money it's like

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okay but i think it's a lot sort of safer and more robust if you have a lot of people who are

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like oh it's bitcoin and maybe i'm not a programmer but like i've heard of that you know like i've

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heard of this is how this works and i like have some understanding and run software um so i think

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even education for people who may not be developers but just users is also important education's tough

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there's definitely better education coming out and it keeps coming which is great uh one more

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question sure maybe end with a non-bitcoin question or it can be bitcoin too have you

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do you have any recent books or articles or podcasts that have blew your mind that

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or you've been thinking about that you want to recommend um thank you maybe not at the moment so

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So I have a little and I'm mostly dealing, you know, like Bitcoin and then watching a lot of kids.

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There are some cool kids.

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Do you have an itty bitty?

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No, I guess I like Mr. Mr. Rogers goes to the U.S. Mint in one of the videos and sees how like money is made.

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So it's like, oh, cool.

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He's got connections.

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But yeah, I'm trying to think what what do I recommend?

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You know, delving Bitcoin.

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That's OK.

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That's OK.

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You can think about it.

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We can end with a different question.

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So if you could label our listeners with a single thought, what would it be?

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Bitcoin is what people think it is.

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So if you think, oh, it's totally safe, it's totally fine, like it can be redefined.

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And I think that's one of the scariest parts and also most powerful parts.

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So it's, you know, you determine what Bitcoin is.

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so to that extent

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like know what it is

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and know what

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what you want it to do

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and you may

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be faced with choices

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in the future

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of what Bitcoin is

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like that happened

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sort of with Forks

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back in 2017

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I wouldn't be surprised

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if that continues to happen

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as it gets bigger

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so it's really up to everyone

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who has Bitcoin

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and uses it

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to like determine its future

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Fantastic

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well if our listeners

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want to learn more

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about what you're doing

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or follow you

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what should they do

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I should make a website

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I guess I use Twitter sometimes.

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It's just T-Dryja.

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I think I made a Noster, but I can't get it to work really well.

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I should.

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But yeah, Twitter or I, yeah, I guess on Delving Bitcoin mailing lists, stuff like that.

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Or, you know, just like come to a conference, bug me, ask me questions.

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Perfect.

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Well, thank you for coming here so early in the morning.

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and I hope you have a great time

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at Presidio Bitcoin

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and the Quantum Bitcoin Summit.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Of course.

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Thank you.