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Mo, thanks so much for joining the 21 and 21 show today.

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Thank you so much for having me here, Haley.

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Of course.

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Really appreciate it.

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I'm so excited that you're here.

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For those of you that don't know Mo, she's a UX researcher and designer and a co-founder

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of the Bitcoin Design Foundation.

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She's also a longtime Bitcoin pal who I originally met years ago through her receiving a spiral

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grant and joining the Bitcoin design community.

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It's been an absolute, like, it's like a blessing getting to do this kind of work,

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like getting paid to do something that you would just do for fun anyway.

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It's amazing.

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It's one of the most amazing opportunities to get to do this.

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And then meeting you in person and then just developing this sort of friendship

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through time has also been super amazing.

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It's amazing.

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I'm very grateful for that.

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Yeah.

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Well, I'm very grateful that you fell into this path and that you're here.

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And now we get to have this conversation.

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We get to vibe.

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Yeah.

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Are you ready for it?

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Let's do it.

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Okay, let's do it.

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All right.

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So my first question for you is, what brings you to Presidio Bitcoin?

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So I had a three-week period where I could do whatever I wanted.

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So I was like, okay, I have three weeks.

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Let me head over to San Francisco and see what's going on in Bitcoin Presidio.

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And this is relatively new.

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So I reached out to you and, you know, you said reach out to Alex.

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And then here I am now, it's my third week and I'm working out of the Presidio offices.

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And it's been absolutely amazing to meet all of the builders here.

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Everyone's super fun.

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Everyone's super nice.

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I'm so glad that you could make it.

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Yeah.

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Well, for those who don't know, can you tell our listeners a bit more about the Bitcoin

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Design Foundation, also the Bitcoin Design Community?

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So the Bitcoin Design Foundation and Bitcoin Design Community are essentially two separate

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separate entities or you know objects and they both serve each other so my role in the bitcoin

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design community is really supporting the ecosystem of builders in the bitcoin ecosystem

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the community source supports the ecosystem of builders by building tools and resources

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for the whole bitcoin ecosystem of builders the role of the bitcoin design foundation is then to

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support designers, give designers grants who work on very niche areas within the ecosystem.

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So they work, for example, mainly on privacy, or they could work on e-cash, and then we give them

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out grants to work on these specific niche areas. So it's been super nice. It's been a very big

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transition as a leader, moving from a grantee to now being a person who distributes grants and

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builds those relationships. Yeah, it's awesome to see. Originally,

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designers were part of the bitcoin design community which spiral was funding individual designers and

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now we have the bitcoin design foundation so spiral funds that and then you and krista kind of go

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from there which is amazing it's been amazing yeah it's been really amazing yeah it's a year now it's

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it's actually it's a full year that the bitcoin design foundation has existed bitcoin design

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community we're going on five years now and we're producing the the report which is going to be a

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live website which i shared with you and um yeah it's time flies i feel like it's like my fourth

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year now it's amazing so great yeah so you have a background in ux research yes and then you

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developed an interest for bitcoin what inspired you to kind of merge both those worlds i love that

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question so much. So my background is in marketing. I always worked as a marketing consultant for

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startups, you know, helping them in terms of how do they enter into a market. And then for a long

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time, I had an online business, an online store, and then I didn't find the challenge in what I was

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doing anymore. So I was like, what can I do? Full transparency, I was actually trying to become

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a developer in the space. And then it was like, no, this is, whoa, this is another realm. So I

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stopped that and then while i was studying front-end development i discovered ux design and i was like

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what is this and then when i discovered ux design it was amazing to see things i was genuinely

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interested in design and research coming together and so i decided then to dedicate my time to

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something that would you know bring freedom to my fellow humans to to to our fellow humans um

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and I see financial freedom as a big pillar in that yeah that's amazing I didn't know that you

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were starting off as a developer I literally tried my hand at that and there was at some

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point where I was trying to figure out this thing and then I spent like a whole week with broken

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code and at some point I went on various forums trying to fix what was broken and I just no one

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could help me and then I was like you know sinking feeling in my heart like this is really hard it's

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hard being a developer. You have to have a huge amount of patience to sit with broken code and

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fix that. So I have a huge amount of respect for developers because I have a lot of empathy for

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what they do. Yeah, it definitely is. It's tricky when you get stuck. And I'm sure,

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well, maybe even that experience helped you empathize even more with Bitcoin developers. And

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why is it so important for developers to work with designers?

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Well, you know, we're essentially a team, you know, we both, so to start off with, we both have the same goal.

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We want more Bitcoin adoption.

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Like that's the goal of both the developers and the designers.

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We just approach it using different tools.

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So the tool that we as designers use are the visual experience and the interactive experience and the developers use the code.

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But these two experiences essentially meet each other.

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And so if we work together in the best way, we can bring the best experience for the people using these applications.

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And as I said, we want the same goal.

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So essentially the developers work on the experience that goes on behind and also the experience that goes on visually.

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And we then come in on the visual experience on the interactive experience And we also come in with data as well that can lead these product decisions So we a team We here We a team Des

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Team Bitcoin.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're a team. Yeah.

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What are some projects that Bitcoin design community has helped with and some developers

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that they've worked with and what has been, you know, the outcome of that?

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So the top two projects that are coming to mind, we've worked with so many projects.

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We're actually putting together the report right now.

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We've worked with over 80 projects over the last five years, which is a massive number of projects that we've worked with.

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It blows my mind that we've actually gotten to touch so many different projects in different ways, in different capacities.

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But the two that come to mind are Bitcoin Core app, which is being worked on at the moment.

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And that's Christoph is leading that.

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And I've worked on that together with him for a long time.

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And that's going to be, you know, that's a project for the whole ecosystem, which is very important for the whole ecosystem.

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And I led research on that project.

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And Christoph is now, you know, taking the baton and continuing working on that project for the whole ecosystem.

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The other one is Wallet Scrutiny, which we were introduced to by Steve, which was super fun to work with that project.

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and we sprinted with them for a period of three months

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in the process of developing the website from scratch.

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So that was fun.

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Those are two projects that have come to mind, yeah.

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Are there any projects right now

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that you're particularly excited about

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or ones that you think could use some help?

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So I'm excited about my own personal project

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that I'm bringing to the ecosystem.

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So when I started off as a spiral grantee,

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I started working on the Bitcoin UX Research Toolkit,

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which is a toolkit for Bitcoin builders to improve their product experience by putting in front of users at different stages of the product.

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So that one I'm really excited.

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But now what's happening is we're finding that there's been a lot of research that has been done on projects which haven't been publicly made available to the rest of the ecosystem.

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So I'm now bringing together that together with the Bitcoin UX research toolkit.

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And I'm going to be putting all of this data on one website, which is a unique challenge

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because it's a traditional website that I'm building.

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And I'm not a developer.

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So I'm using a lot of AI to help me to just like figure stuff out.

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So it's like me and Claude.

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And we're like, how do you do this?

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Like, why isn't this working?

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Okay, your code is broken there.

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So I'm just constantly doing that.

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Web coding is fun.

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It is fun.

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So it's vibe coding in the sense where I'm using a traditional website template, but then anything that's broken or that I don't understand, I'm leaning into AI to help me to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

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So this is going to be fun.

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So I'm very excited about that.

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I'm excited about the five-year report coming out for the Bitcoin design community and showing its proof of work for the last few years.

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So I'm excited about that.

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I'm also very much excited about AI.

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I'm excited about how AI is going to enter into the is already entering into the builders process.

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And I'm excited about how we can facilitate that, which we're already doing.

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So that's I'm very excited about that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, as someone who's also less technical, AI just makes it way easier to build, to get your ideas on paper, to show something.

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It's kind of changing the whole way that I feel like we kind of come up with like proposals.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You're technical.

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You're so, I think we're both technical,

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but we wouldn't really classify ourselves as that.

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But yeah, you know, I feel like you become technical

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by default by just being in this ecosystem

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where like sponges we just absorb.

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But I'm having a lot of fun with AI

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and, you know, building like,

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something that I was interested in building,

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which I spoke to Steve about was, you know,

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really looking at all of the wallets,

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like the open GitHub repositories

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and really collecting that information together.

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So using an AI model to process, for example,

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the GitHub repositories of open source wallets

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and really finding out like, okay,

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what are the main things that users are finding issues about?

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What are the main things that are being worked on

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at the moment by the developers

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to really have like a feel in what's going on

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right now at this moment?

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And also historical view of what has been going on.

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So yeah, lots of fun things.

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Lots of fun things.

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Another fun thing that you're working on is Bitcoin Design Week in San Francisco.

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Yes.

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So you're coming back.

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Can you tell everyone a bit more about that and how they can get involved?

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So Bitcoin Design Week, I'm very excited about Bitcoin Design Week.

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Very grateful that, you know, you guys here at Presidio are, you know, allowing us to host this here in this space.

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So Bitcoin Design Week, 15th to the 19th of September.

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I'll be back in a month.

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Bitcoin Design Week is all about reimagining the future of money. What does Bitcoin look like right now in terms of its user experience? And what could that potentially look like in the future?

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So we're inviting the San Francisco UX designers and the builder community to join us to think through what this experience would look like.

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And we're bringing together some of the best UX designers, Bitcoin UX designers in the space.

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It's going to be a week long.

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It's a la carte.

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So each day is not necessarily linked to another day.

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We have evening sessions where we're going to dive into who are we building for.

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We're going to have vibe coding with Matt, Matt Belez.

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Matt's been amazing to work together with on this um it's a new you know working relationship

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and he's been absolutely amazing to work together with on this and lead this

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lead this design week that we're having um so you know come come and join us and reimagine

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let let dive into the current problem spaces and the current friction points in the bitcoin user experience And then let extrapolate into the future into what would Bitcoin look like if it were integrated with a lot of the big mainstream Silicon Valley products

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It's going to be fun.

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It's going to be a fun week.

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I'm excited.

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It's going to be really fun.

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Yes.

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And it kind of goes along with our mission

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at Presidio Bitcoin to try to bridge

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the gap between Silicon Valley and Bitcoin

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and really show how there's so many ways

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that like we should all work together

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and also like why people should be excited

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about the future of Bitcoin.

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Like Bitcoin can kind of have this reputation

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of maybe being slow or boring,

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but like that's definitely like not the case.

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And it's an introduction,

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it's an invitation to designers as well.

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Like why should you work on Bitcoin?

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You know, a lot of us make a decision

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to work on Bitcoin.

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Many of the people that I've met

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from a philosophical perspective.

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So it's really inviting designers,

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really inviting Silicon Valley designers into this experience that we've been, you know,

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living as working as UX designers in the ecosystem.

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So it's the thing, the special thing about working in this ecosystem is you have the

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freedom to carve your own path, which is very different to working in a traditional company

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setting where you have maybe a little bit less freedom.

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and here's the freedom for identifying,

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well, this is what I think the ecosystem needs

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and this is what I'm going to,

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this is my talents

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and how can I match that

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to what the ecosystem needs?

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It's very unique and it's very flat as well.

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You know, there's no sort of hierarchy

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in decisions and in structure.

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So anything goes, you know,

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which I absolutely love.

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Yes.

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So if anyone listening is in San Francisco

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or wants to come visit September 15th and 19th,

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I'll put the link in the description with the website so you can sign up or you can message either one of us, but spread the word.

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So something else that on the spiral side, specifically me and Matt, are thinking a lot about is how to encourage people to think of Bitcoin as money, like using it as a form of payment.

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There's this dominant narrative of it being a store of value, kind of number go up.

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how do you think that we can make better design practices or to encourage people to use bitcoin

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as money um from a you know i i also always speak with my data hat on because i've always been you

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know the voice of the users in the ecosystem and so you know what i noticed a lot of and something

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that i'm very excited about is a lot of the the research that i've done on the use cases and the

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needs of political activists so you know what we're seeing a lot of is we have we have the

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humanitarian approach, which are activists, political activists who have been literally

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silenced by, you know, they've had their traditional financial system taken out of their hands

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because they've spoken up for themselves. And then we have the other side, which is also very

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humanitarian, ladies. We have the unbanked. So for me, it's really diving into, you know,

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what are the use cases of people who've had their financial freedom or their communication

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freedom so that's being nostre you know the potential of nostre as well what if what are

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the potential of these tools to to of this technology of bringing putting this back the

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power back into the hands of people so for me that's kind of the angle with which i approach it

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it's it's where people who have been disempowered by the traditional systems how can we use the

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freedom technology to really empower them so for me it's it's it's diving into those areas and you

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know speaking and connecting with these people and sitting in front of the people who are building

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the stuff that you're using like let's sit in front of them and let's let's feel um you know

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intuitively how they're feeling about using this this this product that we're building

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and then the other side of it is you know building relationships with developers as well

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and and empowering them in their building process to to incorporate this this knowledge

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into their building process.

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The voices of the users, essentially.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Are there any dream projects

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that you would want to see somebody build,

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besides what you're building out right now already

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to kind of align with that vision?

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So it's actually something

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that Steve and I spoke about this morning.

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So something that Steve spoke about

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was how does AI, you know,

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AI is now simply emerging.

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It's already here.

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There's no way that we can, you know,

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move away from it. So I've been using AI in my process as a builder and as someone working

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ecosystem now. And I've just discovered that there's certain ways that I've been using AI

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that no one knows about. So I would be really excited to see how, you know, something that

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Steve and I discussed this morning was, you know, how does, how can AI support the whole product

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development process? So something that we spoke about was what would the Bitcoin design guide

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actually look like if we incorporated AI into it and then build that as a resource to support the

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builder community. So I'm very excited and I'm very excited about really diving down deeper into that

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rabbit hole. You know, we're planning to host some design calls in the Bitcoin design community.

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I'm actually supposed to put them on. I was actually supposed to put it online yesterday,

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but we're planning to host these AI design calls where it's basically like, okay, here's the Bitcoin

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design guide. Let's take your wallet interface and let's put it into the Bitcoin. Let's take the

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Bitcoin design guide and AI, and then let's put the Bitcoin design guide into AI and let's then

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communicate with it and ask it, well, how can we improve the user interface using this as a tool,

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using this as a resource? So there's just so many ways and possibilities. And that's the fun stuff.

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Like that's now like, yeah, that's going to be fun. Oh, I love that. I would love to be involved.

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That's so fun.

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That's so fun.

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And I think that that will enable, will want people to move faster and more efficiently,

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but also maybe new builders who don't have certain skill sets or know where to start,

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it seems like it just going to enable a lot We at the point now where you can basically make screenshots of your so let say you a wallet builder You can basically make screenshots of the wallet you building

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You can then upload those screenshots into an AI tool. Then as another resource in terms of

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knowledge base, you would upload the Bitcoin design guide. And then you would ask it for

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advice in terms of, hey, am I following design practices? And then you have literally a design

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sidekick you have a design sidekick you can i'm excited about what the whole product team looks

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like using ai like that's something that i'm i've been really crunching on um yeah bitcoin design

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sidekick there you go there we go bitcoin design sidekick like that's what it is right it's just a

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sidekick like you can be a solar builder or you can be a team of three people and you can have this

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resource you don't have to set up any meetings you can just basically just chat with it ask it for

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some help and then you have an answer in five seconds i mean what else could you want no meetings

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there we go free help how to get things done quick super quick answers and then you know what if

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what if the what if the ai model builds its own knowledge base of well your product vision right

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so imagine it builds a you know an you know a knowledge base of your vision that you have for

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your product your vision your target market that you have for your product and then it's like okay

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well it brings the bitcoin design guide in the bitcoin design guide the community resources that

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we've built um it brings data in and then you feed that data into the ai model and then next to that

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you have your vision that you would like to see you have your target market that you want to serve

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and then you're having this massive product conversation with this design slash product

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sidekick. I mean, that's the future. And then coming off of that, imagine if that existed

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and then you're onboarding, like let's say I'm a small startup or a big company or a commercial

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company and I want to onboard a new UX designer or I want to onboard a new person onto my product

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team. Well, I don't spend a week onboarding them. I just say, here is our product knowledge base.

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Go chat with the product knowledge base.

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And our product knowledge base will onboard you.

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So we don't need to have a week-long onboarding process.

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Here's all of the data.

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Here's all of the information.

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Here's the vision.

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Here's what's been working well.

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Here's what's not been working well.

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Go have fun with it.

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Go chat with it.

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Go ask it all the questions you want to ask.

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And then you're good to go.

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I mean, that's so cool.

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This seems very aligned with Builder, which is our new monthly meetup,

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which I think you need to start a local version.

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Okay, fun.

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Fun.

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You come to Presidio Bitcoin

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and you leave with lots of new assignments and ideas.

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This is exactly what it feels like.

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We are busy here.

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Very busy, very busy, yeah.

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Well, just a couple, one more question.

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So what do you think the best way is for companies

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or for individuals to support the Bitcoin Design Foundation?

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yeah so you can support in two ways you can support with your time so your time our time

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is our most valuable resource who we spend our time with how we spend our time and you know

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spending your time contributing to improving the bitcoin ecosystem contributing to the bitcoin

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design community you're not just contributing to a singular project you're contributing to an

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a toolkit that is there to serve the entire Bitcoin ecosystem.

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So when you then jump into the community

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and you help us to improve the existing resources

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that we have, such as the Bitcoin design guide,

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such as the Bitcoin UX research toolkit,

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such as the Bitcoin UI kit,

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you're essentially helping tools and resources

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that help the entire ecosystem of builders.

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So as a developer, you can help us

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by letting us know what's working for you

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within these resources and what's working well for you and what's not working well for you.

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And as a designer, you can help us by improving these resources because we're noticing that

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designers are using a lot as well to kind of onboard themselves. So you can help us to improve

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these resources. From a support standpoint, we are a non-profit. So by donating to the Bitcoin

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Design Foundation, you're then actually helping us support the larger ecosystem, support us in

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giving out grants to designers who are working on niche specific projects such as e-cash,

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such as privacy focused technology. You know, we've given out niche grants and shout out to

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all of the grantees as well who've done the work. So yeah, you know, there's contribution in time

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and there's contribution in resources as well. So those would be the two ways. Yeah.

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Amazing. And we'll include the links to all of the above so people can either figure out if they want to contribute time, resources, or if they're new, they can just get started and get started learning.

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And B, you know, my main thing would just be to be curious, you know. I think the main thing that has helped me to grow professionally within the ecosystem is just really remaining curious. Your curiosity will eventually lead you to stuff that you enjoy, you know.

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So be curious, you know, come in and feel and see where your path is, because there is no clear path here.

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You can literally carve your own path as someone in the space.

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Amazing.

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There you go.

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Well, if people want to reach out to you, they want to follow your work, where should they go?

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So I'm on Noster and I'm on Twitter.

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Well, not called Twitter anymore.

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Sorry, X.com.

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so on x.com you can find me as m-o-u-x design and on nostril it's the same great well well people

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know where to go well thanks so much for joining the show i hope you enjoy the rest of your time

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at procedure bitcoin and we'll see you here again soon i feel so welcome being here thank you so much

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of course