1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,320 Christoph, welcome to 21 in 21. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:04,720 Thanks so much for having me. 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,920 This feels super special being here in San Francisco, first of all, then in this Bitcoin 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:10,460 space. 5 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:13,560 On top of that and having a design week, it feels crazy. 6 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:15,640 There's so much going on. 7 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,100 It's so great to have you in town. 8 00:00:17,260 --> 00:00:22,440 For those of you that don't know Christoph, Christoph Ono, he's also known as Germany's 9 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,420 best kept secret, GBKS on social. 10 00:00:25,420 --> 00:00:27,920 and he's a UX and product designer 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,600 working on open source design 12 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,820 and the Bitcoin ecosystem. 13 00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:32,520 He's largely involved 14 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:33,840 with the Bitcoin design community. 15 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:34,580 He co-founded 16 00:00:34,580 --> 00:00:35,800 the Bitcoin Design Foundation 17 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,300 and has for a long time 18 00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:38,660 been part of the extended 19 00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:39,520 Spiral crew 20 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:40,920 through our grant program. 21 00:00:41,700 --> 00:00:43,240 Yes, it's quite a handful. 22 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:44,280 Yes, you do a lot. 23 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:45,420 It's fun. 24 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:46,060 I like it. 25 00:00:46,660 --> 00:00:47,140 That's great. 26 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,280 And you're about to do even more 27 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,820 because now I'm going to ask you 28 00:00:51,820 --> 00:00:52,700 a bunch of questions. 29 00:00:53,020 --> 00:00:53,400 Go for it. 30 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:53,780 I'm ready. 31 00:00:54,020 --> 00:00:54,240 Okay. 32 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:55,560 You're ready. 33 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,620 So my first question, which you kind of briefly already mentioned, 34 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,960 is that you're here all the way from Germany for the Bitcoin Design Week. 35 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,580 Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about it and how you think it's going so far? 36 00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:12,020 It's been really incredible. 37 00:01:12,340 --> 00:01:14,680 This is the first time that we're in the Bitcoin Design community. 38 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,340 We're actually organizing our own events. 39 00:01:16,340 --> 00:01:21,400 So far, we've done some satellite events like BTC Prague Design Track at the DevHack Day. 40 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:36,540 And this is really a whole week just about design, which I don't think, I didn't feel like we ever, that's something that we would ever do. And it's so awesome. It's been a great collaboration with you guys from Presidio here, from the co-working space. It's a perfect place for it. 41 00:01:36,540 --> 00:01:53,920 And it's super exciting to be able to get the San Francisco crowd in here and just talk about the things that we slave over day by day for the last five years, pretty much, and trying to get Bitcoin more into the world and adopted and used by people. 42 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,580 It feels very special. 43 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,220 And it's been two really great days. 44 00:01:58,340 --> 00:01:59,500 People are engaged. 45 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:00,680 We've had some really good talks. 46 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,920 And it's been a great atmosphere. 47 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,100 So I'm excited for today and then two more days tomorrow and Friday. 48 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:09,040 Yeah, the next few days, we're going to be having full days. 49 00:02:09,140 --> 00:02:12,760 So we've been having kind of these after work events, which have been really well attended. 50 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:15,060 So shout out to you guys. 51 00:02:15,140 --> 00:02:17,240 I mean, this has been like a full house so far. 52 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:18,780 Yeah, I appreciate it. 53 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:23,800 And the really nice thing was I did a talk that was planned for like 25, 30 minutes on Monday. 54 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,240 And then it turned out in an hour because people had so many questions. 55 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,540 And then other people in the audience answered those questions. 56 00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:31,200 And we went all over the place. 57 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:32,540 And it was super cool. 58 00:02:32,540 --> 00:02:34,740 So I did not expect so much engagement. 59 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:35,720 Really appreciate that. 60 00:02:35,720 --> 00:03:04,100 Yes, I've, well, I didn't make a Monday night, but last night I thought it was really interesting. I'm going tonight, tomorrow, the next few days. So we'll be sure to give everybody an update once it's done. But yes, I'm excited for all of the good things that come out of it. So one of the themes of the week is designing future money. What does that mean kind of compared to designing for traditional fintech finance apps? 61 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,120 Yeah, we have a very crazy ambition. 62 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,020 It's absolutely insane what Bitcoin is trying to do, right? 63 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,160 And that was kind of the vision here. 64 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,520 And though it's called design future money, it's not like designing, making Bitcoin better, right? 65 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,980 We wanted to really tackle the topic of money itself. 66 00:03:20,260 --> 00:03:28,600 So Monday also we picked up on the history of money a little bit, barter, gold, fiat money backed by gold, and then government backed fiat money today. 67 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,660 and then the idea of what money could look like in the 21st century 68 00:03:31,660 --> 00:03:33,440 with all this exciting tech that we have 69 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,760 and kind of what we would want from that money 70 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,640 and then kind of how Bitcoin fits into that, right? 71 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,300 So really starting from the basics of what we're trying to achieve 72 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:45,420 and then what a solution might look like 73 00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:48,180 and then digging deep into how that's actually been playing out 74 00:03:48,180 --> 00:03:51,760 now that we're 15 years into the Bitcoin experiment 75 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,940 and then kind of what should happen next, 76 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:57,200 how that could play out in maybe the next 15 years. 77 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:03,840 So it's, you know, we're not assuming that people who come here know Bitcoin or are convinced by Bitcoin already bought. 78 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,640 And we really wanted to start from the basics here, which has also been in preparing some of the talks. 79 00:04:08,740 --> 00:04:09,880 It's been a really great exercise. 80 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:15,520 Makes us, you know, research and really think about what we're doing and be able to articulate it very clearly. 81 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:22,000 Yes, I actually met somebody last night and it was his first Bitcoin meetup ever. 82 00:04:22,660 --> 00:04:25,660 He just found it on Luma and was really excited about it. 83 00:04:25,660 --> 00:04:27,340 So that was really fun to hear about. 84 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,760 So I'm glad that it feels so approachable and exciting for people. 85 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,360 Yeah, it's been a nice mix of people. 86 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:35,960 Some devs are here, some investors are here, 87 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,440 people from different companies, 88 00:04:38,020 --> 00:04:41,040 from some of the well-known companies here in the area as well. 89 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,020 And the conversations have been all over the place, 90 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:47,600 which is awesome because then you get these different viewpoints 91 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,440 and you kind of learn about the role of money too 92 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:52,800 and everyone learns from each other 93 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,460 and then we can figure out what we're going to do with Bitcoin 94 00:04:55,460 --> 00:04:58,280 to address all this stuff and make it even better. 95 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,500 Well, one of the other unique things of this event, 96 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,960 being in San Francisco and kind of part of Presidio Bitcoin's mission generally, 97 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,260 is trying to bridge this gap between Bitcoin and Silicon Valley. 98 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:14,120 What opportunity do you think for designers that are here locally 99 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,000 that maybe have more of that big tech or startup experience? 100 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,880 Like, what do you think that they can be doing for Bitcoin? 101 00:05:21,580 --> 00:05:23,440 Why should they be excited about Bitcoin? 102 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:43,740 You know, I'll go back to what excited me about Bitcoin. When I started getting into Bitcoin, I had about 15 years of experience in the digital design space, working for design agencies, freelancing, working with startups, working with big companies. And I thought, I kind of know the internet. I know we can do it. I've seen it all. We've got to figure it out. 103 00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:48,480 And then this thing came around and it's like, what, we can do money as well? 104 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:49,340 That's a thing. 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:50,280 It is possible. 106 00:05:50,580 --> 00:05:53,360 And anyone can contribute and we can build our own applications. 107 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:58,460 And they don't have to look like whatever, you know, your bank would create or what a 108 00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:01,060 global corporation would create. 109 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:16,422 It can be what I want it to be what we as a community want it to be So I think there a really awesome design space and a lot of creativity and freedom And the people that work in this space they think that way too They not bound by you know 110 00:06:16,442 --> 00:06:17,922 let's say starting with like our, you know, 111 00:06:17,962 --> 00:06:19,902 our corporate requirements, business model, 112 00:06:19,982 --> 00:06:20,522 or this and this. 113 00:06:20,582 --> 00:06:23,022 It's like, no, really broadly, 114 00:06:23,182 --> 00:06:24,282 what should this be like? 115 00:06:24,322 --> 00:06:25,302 What do we want it to be? 116 00:06:25,882 --> 00:06:27,502 And so for me as a designer, 117 00:06:27,502 --> 00:06:29,642 that's obviously really, really exciting, right? 118 00:06:29,722 --> 00:06:31,322 We have all this creative freedom. 119 00:06:32,002 --> 00:06:40,322 So I think that's something, if anyone likes to tinker, is a little bit adventurous, wants to explore, this is just an amazing space to be in. 120 00:06:40,962 --> 00:06:45,342 And they can go to the Bitcoin design community, Discord? 121 00:06:46,022 --> 00:06:48,082 Yes, bitcoin.design, that's the place to go. 122 00:06:48,082 --> 00:06:53,642 So we have tons of materials, like resources, UI kit, the Bitcoin design guide. 123 00:06:53,642 --> 00:06:55,762 and then the heart of it is this Discord 124 00:06:55,762 --> 00:06:57,742 which is basically meant as an open place 125 00:06:57,742 --> 00:06:59,822 where you can join and 126 00:06:59,822 --> 00:07:01,802 people share projects that they're working on 127 00:07:01,802 --> 00:07:03,882 they discuss challenges they're working on 128 00:07:03,882 --> 00:07:05,602 or they look for 129 00:07:05,602 --> 00:07:06,722 contributors 130 00:07:06,722 --> 00:07:09,062 and we also have a newsletter 131 00:07:09,062 --> 00:07:11,682 sometimes Discord, we're all part of 132 00:07:11,682 --> 00:07:13,362 lots of telegrams and discourse and whatnot 133 00:07:13,362 --> 00:07:15,802 if you can't keep up with everything, just sign up for the newsletter 134 00:07:15,802 --> 00:07:17,922 we do design review calls 135 00:07:17,922 --> 00:07:20,022 and all this stuff, so if you just join in there 136 00:07:20,022 --> 00:07:21,042 poke around a little bit 137 00:07:21,042 --> 00:07:22,342 there's usually 138 00:07:22,342 --> 00:07:25,222 you'll find something interesting. 139 00:07:25,722 --> 00:07:27,182 Open source takes a little bit 140 00:07:27,182 --> 00:07:29,182 moment to kind of find your place 141 00:07:29,182 --> 00:07:31,202 as it is with any community. If you move to 142 00:07:31,202 --> 00:07:32,982 a different city, if you join 143 00:07:32,982 --> 00:07:35,282 a tennis club or so, it takes a moment. 144 00:07:35,402 --> 00:07:36,122 It's the same here. 145 00:07:36,842 --> 00:07:39,162 But I think generally, I think we have a very open 146 00:07:39,162 --> 00:07:41,462 friendly, approachable space and there's a lot of 147 00:07:41,462 --> 00:07:43,162 really cool projects happening. 148 00:07:43,722 --> 00:07:45,402 Events like this one here. 149 00:07:45,882 --> 00:07:46,862 Yes. Come here. 150 00:07:47,562 --> 00:07:49,422 If you're local to San 151 00:07:49,422 --> 00:07:51,262 Francisco and you're curious about Bitcoin, we 152 00:07:51,262 --> 00:07:55,262 pretty much have an event every Thursday. Sadly, Christoph is not here every Thursday, 153 00:07:55,662 --> 00:08:02,462 but I am. And we have Builder, which happens the third Thursday of the month. So next week, 154 00:08:02,562 --> 00:08:06,942 if I get this podcast out in time, I'll show it because the Builder event is next week. So 155 00:08:06,942 --> 00:08:12,322 we're actually trying to get a lot of designers at Builder and hopefully getting Builder events 156 00:08:12,322 --> 00:08:18,122 more worldwide because it's a great opportunity for people who are design, product, marketing 157 00:08:18,122 --> 00:08:25,342 minded who also are intrigued by AI vibe coding to kind of get together and really talk about 158 00:08:25,342 --> 00:08:33,262 what's possible to build with bitcoins it's fun some cool stuff yes um so you obviously do a lot 159 00:08:33,262 --> 00:08:37,602 I've known you for a while I feel like your name is everywhere I don't know how you have time for 160 00:08:37,602 --> 00:08:43,322 everything thank you for your contributions what are you currently really excited about right now 161 00:08:44,242 --> 00:08:58,462 So something I have been excited about and I'm still very excited about is that we're actually redesigning Satoshi's original client, the Bitcoin Qt desktop application, which still looks kind of like the way it looked when we hit it come out 12 years ago or so. 162 00:08:58,882 --> 00:09:00,162 We're rebuilding it from scratch. 163 00:09:00,262 --> 00:09:02,522 It's been a project that's been in the works for four years. 164 00:09:02,702 --> 00:09:06,922 It implements tons of best practices that we have in the Bitcoin design guide and the 165 00:09:06,922 --> 00:09:07,862 Bitcoin design community. 166 00:09:08,422 --> 00:09:14,622 Updates this desktop-based QT wallet to something that works cross-platform, initially mostly 167 00:09:14,622 --> 00:09:18,842 in desktop, but the design is also going to work on Android devices, for example, maybe 168 00:09:18,842 --> 00:09:20,042 iOS in the future too. 169 00:09:20,662 --> 00:09:22,382 So I think this is a major upgrade, right? 170 00:09:22,382 --> 00:09:28,662 this is kind of the first Bitcoin wallet ever that set the tone for, you know, this whole, 171 00:09:28,842 --> 00:09:33,082 you know, Bitcoin ecosystem and even the larger crypto ecosystem around it, right? 172 00:09:33,562 --> 00:09:39,482 And if we can get that one up to date with the latest best practices, make it super usable, 173 00:09:39,982 --> 00:09:42,922 it has the most reviewed code base. 174 00:09:43,042 --> 00:09:44,522 Of course, it's Bitcoin Core, right? 175 00:09:45,542 --> 00:09:51,242 So it takes its time as everything with Bitcoin Core, but I think we're so close. 176 00:09:51,242 --> 00:09:52,282 I'm so excited about it. 177 00:09:52,382 --> 00:09:56,762 So BitcoinCore.app is the website for it if you like design documentation. 178 00:09:57,562 --> 00:09:59,582 And there's an alpha version out. 179 00:09:59,682 --> 00:10:01,202 You can make Cygnet transactions. 180 00:10:01,462 --> 00:10:02,262 You can run a node. 181 00:10:03,082 --> 00:10:07,382 Still figuring out some of the integration stuff with the Bitcoin Core code base. 182 00:10:07,682 --> 00:10:10,262 But that is something I am feeling so close. 183 00:10:10,902 --> 00:10:14,802 And it'll be such an amazing thing to have out there in people's hands. 184 00:10:15,342 --> 00:10:20,542 And you know, that might get, potentially, it allows billions of Android devices to run 185 00:10:20,542 --> 00:10:21,022 their own nodes. 186 00:10:21,022 --> 00:10:26,442 that's that is that is a big deal that is a big deal so this is going to be totally self-custodial 187 00:10:26,442 --> 00:10:31,842 wallet that people can just like download on their phone correct just like right now the bitcoin qt 188 00:10:31,842 --> 00:10:35,662 wallet you double click it it runs a node and you have your wallet that's how it's basic i mean 189 00:10:35,662 --> 00:10:40,382 bitcoin was launched as a desktop application basically and this is the same thing except that 190 00:10:40,382 --> 00:10:46,222 it looks modern has best practices baked in and it also runs on your android device just tap it 191 00:10:46,222 --> 00:10:47,582 It runs a node. 192 00:10:47,902 --> 00:10:52,662 Of course, it takes some time on an Android device to do your IBD, your initial block download. 193 00:10:53,202 --> 00:10:57,542 But then you have a full wallet, self-custodial, run your own node, be part of the network. 194 00:10:58,302 --> 00:10:59,282 And that's super cool. 195 00:10:59,842 --> 00:11:08,402 This must have been really fun for designers, too, to kind of have a big say in the UX to really promote a good user experience, especially for new people. 196 00:11:08,402 --> 00:11:18,962 It feels like a lot of responsibility because we wanted to make sure that we also build a very universal design foundation and design system that over the decades to follow, ideally. 197 00:11:19,182 --> 00:11:22,862 We wanted to build for the long term this design system and this UI as well. 198 00:11:23,022 --> 00:11:32,162 So if, let's say, five years now or 10 years now, this is being iterated, that there are clear guidelines, that it will stay coherent, that new features can be implemented well. 199 00:11:32,542 --> 00:11:34,602 This is something that the old project didn't have, right? 200 00:11:34,602 --> 00:11:40,982 so it felt it was super cool but also just felt kind of very heavy and meaningful and 201 00:11:40,982 --> 00:11:47,582 a little bit historical i guess yeah and i this is another example of designers working with 202 00:11:47,582 --> 00:11:53,782 developers um how has that experience been how do you go about kind of working with 203 00:11:53,782 --> 00:12:01,482 developers and getting them really thinking about design um so the way i i really dislike the idea 204 00:12:01,482 --> 00:12:02,642 And I see it all the time. 205 00:12:02,642 --> 00:12:03,862 I've done design for 20 years. 206 00:12:03,862 --> 00:12:06,942 I so many times I see like there's there's a gap between them or so. 207 00:12:07,142 --> 00:12:10,862 But the reality is we all work together and it's not just designers and developers. 208 00:12:10,862 --> 00:12:11,862 We just do different things. 209 00:12:11,862 --> 00:12:26,384 We work on the same thing There are translators project managers people who review the code people who manage the build system We all just working on one thing and we just do different things and we talk about the overlaps and everything And that it We have a goal 210 00:12:26,384 --> 00:12:32,564 to make something cool and we just work together to do that. Now with the design process, a good 211 00:12:32,564 --> 00:12:38,324 design process, in my experience, oftentimes I say designing is planning that where you do not 212 00:12:38,324 --> 00:12:40,124 figure out your design in code. 213 00:12:40,364 --> 00:12:41,644 You do that ahead of time. 214 00:12:42,124 --> 00:12:43,544 So we've designed 215 00:12:43,544 --> 00:12:46,504 years ahead for the project 216 00:12:46,504 --> 00:12:47,964 of what the implementation is. 217 00:12:48,544 --> 00:12:49,984 So we've designed features 218 00:12:49,984 --> 00:12:52,084 like silent payments 219 00:12:52,084 --> 00:12:54,244 or hardware external 220 00:12:54,244 --> 00:12:56,404 signers and whatnot that will not 221 00:12:56,404 --> 00:12:58,344 make it into the application until maybe next 222 00:12:58,344 --> 00:13:00,524 year. But by designing 223 00:13:00,524 --> 00:13:02,484 ahead of time, by doing the designs, by doing 224 00:13:02,484 --> 00:13:04,044 the prototyping, doing the documentation, 225 00:13:04,744 --> 00:13:06,544 anyone can participate and review 226 00:13:06,544 --> 00:13:10,784 it and say, yeah, this is well thought out, this is going to work for me and all this stuff. 227 00:13:10,784 --> 00:13:16,144 And then when development comes around, development becomes much easier because everyone's already on 228 00:13:16,144 --> 00:13:21,024 board, everyone's seen it, everyone's tried it out in a prototype, and it makes for a much, 229 00:13:21,024 --> 00:13:26,384 much smoother process. It does take some time to get used to, generally. It's a lot more documentation, 230 00:13:27,424 --> 00:13:32,224 but I do think it's a more thorough and productive process. 231 00:13:32,224 --> 00:13:46,704 I love that. That's actually someone has told me that in the past when I was having like imposter syndrome with like getting a new job and moving. She was just kind of like, you know, we kind of all just like do the same thing. We just like build stuff, make it cool. Like, so yeah, I love that you think that too. 232 00:13:48,604 --> 00:13:56,244 Are there any other projects that the design community has like helped make an impact on and like what kind of UX tweaks have you done? 233 00:13:57,044 --> 00:13:58,664 Yeah, it's been a lot of different projects. 234 00:13:58,864 --> 00:14:00,284 You know, it's been five years. 235 00:14:00,544 --> 00:14:03,824 Actually, check out five.bitcoin.design, like F-I-V-E, 236 00:14:03,984 --> 00:14:06,104 because we just created a five-year report 237 00:14:06,104 --> 00:14:09,984 that shows all the 80-plus projects 238 00:14:09,984 --> 00:14:12,944 that the community has kind of touched in one way or another. 239 00:14:13,064 --> 00:14:15,084 Some things were, you know, very small things, 240 00:14:15,084 --> 00:14:16,864 like just having a bit of a design review session, 241 00:14:16,964 --> 00:14:19,024 giving feedback, and other projects were founded 242 00:14:19,024 --> 00:14:20,944 and created and maintained by the community, 243 00:14:21,424 --> 00:14:24,144 like the Bitcoin Sign Kit, Bitcoin Icons, 244 00:14:24,344 --> 00:14:25,584 the design guide. 245 00:14:26,244 --> 00:14:32,824 Saving Satoshi, it's something I worked on, which is an educational project for if you want to learn Bitcoin coding through a sci-fi story. 246 00:14:33,324 --> 00:14:34,164 Appreciate that one. 247 00:14:35,284 --> 00:14:47,404 And so, you know, early on, a long time ago, Spectre came to the community and they had some very, very specific design problems, UX problems that they wanted some help with. 248 00:14:48,064 --> 00:14:49,504 That was an early one. 249 00:14:49,864 --> 00:14:54,604 Then we've done a ton of design review sessions where people get together. 250 00:14:54,604 --> 00:14:57,764 We talk about a specific part of the user flow. 251 00:14:57,904 --> 00:14:58,464 We give feedback. 252 00:14:58,564 --> 00:14:59,164 We summarize it. 253 00:14:59,244 --> 00:14:59,784 We send it back. 254 00:14:59,884 --> 00:15:04,204 And then teams often, it's kind of up to them in a way to then kind of start implementing it. 255 00:15:04,604 --> 00:15:12,644 But sometimes a little bit hard for me personally to know exactly what comes out at the end and to measure the impact there. 256 00:15:13,564 --> 00:15:14,884 But let me see. 257 00:15:14,964 --> 00:15:16,004 What are some other examples? 258 00:15:16,544 --> 00:15:20,164 Wallet Scrutiny is someone where we did a whole redesign of their website. 259 00:15:21,324 --> 00:15:23,524 And yeah, I can't think of any other. 260 00:15:23,524 --> 00:15:30,904 But go to the website, five.bitcoindotdesign, 80 plus projects that touched in one way or another. 261 00:15:31,224 --> 00:15:40,004 But that's also the cool thing that it's a community of several thousand people that even for me who spends a lot of time on there, I can't even keep, say, on top of everything that's happening. 262 00:15:40,184 --> 00:15:41,604 It's just kind of buzzing. 263 00:15:42,784 --> 00:15:44,144 Yeah, it's a really good report. 264 00:15:44,724 --> 00:15:45,744 Very well designed. 265 00:15:45,864 --> 00:15:46,664 I love the website. 266 00:15:47,184 --> 00:15:48,544 That's the past five years. 267 00:15:49,124 --> 00:15:56,384 What's your vision for the next five years for either the Bitcoin design community or maybe the Bitcoin design foundation? 268 00:15:57,524 --> 00:15:59,744 Yeah, so it's a community. 269 00:15:59,884 --> 00:16:02,424 I'm not the person who should say, this is what we're going to do, right? 270 00:16:02,464 --> 00:16:07,644 It's meant to be really where the technology goes, where the people go, what they want to work on. 271 00:16:07,644 --> 00:16:11,544 Everyone can kind of have their own say in what they want to do. 272 00:16:12,504 --> 00:16:13,924 Now, we've seen some patterns, 273 00:16:14,064 --> 00:16:16,824 and I think the part being the Bitcoin Design Foundation, 274 00:16:16,964 --> 00:16:19,224 it has become more of a go-to point where people say, 275 00:16:19,324 --> 00:16:20,324 hey, we'd love to do this. 276 00:16:20,484 --> 00:16:23,424 For example, a year ago, we've had Bitshala reach out, 277 00:16:23,864 --> 00:16:25,424 which is an organization in India, 278 00:16:25,544 --> 00:16:27,084 does a lot of developer education 279 00:16:27,084 --> 00:16:29,844 and organized a lot of events there in Bangalore, I think. 280 00:16:30,264 --> 00:16:32,964 And they said, well, we have a developer education track. 281 00:16:33,044 --> 00:16:36,164 We'd love to have a design track as well. 282 00:16:36,164 --> 00:16:37,104 And we make that happen. 283 00:16:37,344 --> 00:16:39,464 So we're like, cool, of course we'll do that. 284 00:16:39,464 --> 00:16:43,044 So we've gotten some inbound requests around education. 285 00:16:43,584 --> 00:16:45,964 Bitcoin Datas wanted to have a workshop, Plan B. 286 00:16:46,504 --> 00:16:49,024 Eric did a workshop there recently. 287 00:16:49,784 --> 00:16:54,984 So building out more the education track, there's been a lot of interest in doing that. 288 00:16:55,144 --> 00:17:00,024 We'll need some more support if you love doing education, if you like design to help us. 289 00:17:00,444 --> 00:17:01,004 There's something. 290 00:17:01,004 --> 00:17:07,664 then another tricky thing where i think the community and foundation are well placed is to 291 00:17:07,664 --> 00:17:13,524 support interoperability for example a new feature comes out silent payments for example 292 00:17:13,524 --> 00:17:18,004 it's not really clear how it should surface in the interface how we communicate how this 293 00:17:18,004 --> 00:17:22,984 new thing works to people we in the community we can bring people together we can figure out 294 00:17:22,984 --> 00:17:28,544 what that maybe should be like and then we can work with different projects to implement that 295 00:17:28,544 --> 00:17:29,304 in the interfaces. 296 00:17:29,504 --> 00:17:31,324 So not everyone has to reinvent the wheel. 297 00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:32,564 And then in the end, 298 00:17:32,584 --> 00:17:34,424 different users have a very similar experience 299 00:17:34,424 --> 00:17:36,284 where they can simply just use their Bitcoin 300 00:17:36,284 --> 00:17:39,064 without everyone having to figure out 301 00:17:39,064 --> 00:17:41,344 how the interface works and how it ties in. 302 00:17:42,384 --> 00:17:44,564 Those are some big areas. 303 00:17:45,364 --> 00:17:46,904 Lots of exciting things to come. 304 00:17:48,664 --> 00:17:50,064 Shifting gears a little bit. 305 00:17:51,504 --> 00:17:53,844 Are there any designers or thinkers 306 00:17:53,844 --> 00:17:55,364 that have really influenced 307 00:17:55,364 --> 00:17:58,144 the way that you approach Bitcoin design? 308 00:17:58,544 --> 00:17:59,464 or Bitcoin generally? 309 00:18:00,404 --> 00:18:01,784 Does it have to be Bitcoin? 310 00:18:01,804 --> 00:18:03,444 No, it's not. Sorry, it doesn't have to be about Bitcoin. 311 00:18:03,684 --> 00:18:04,824 Just design, generally. 312 00:18:05,224 --> 00:18:08,684 Yeah. So I studied traditional graphic design 313 00:18:08,684 --> 00:18:10,104 or visual communication design. 314 00:18:10,664 --> 00:18:12,184 So, you know, I have your classics like, 315 00:18:12,304 --> 00:18:13,484 what is it, Dieter Rams, 316 00:18:13,564 --> 00:18:16,404 who came up with 10 principles of design, 317 00:18:17,644 --> 00:18:20,504 you know, less but better, for example, 318 00:18:20,664 --> 00:18:33,986 or design Check it out Check it out Dieter Rams He also inspired you know johnny ive and apple and all of this stuff so i come back to a lot of these type of things but for me it uh i started on the 319 00:18:33,986 --> 00:18:40,706 internet when i studied design you know i would go to the library i would pop up tons of books and 320 00:18:40,706 --> 00:18:45,346 magazines around this i would learn from everything it was product design architecture graphic design 321 00:18:45,346 --> 00:18:52,426 fashion design anything and then on the internet even when my teacher in my school our teacher 322 00:18:52,426 --> 00:18:58,086 would show us certain i would go on the internet there was a broad global world of of of design 323 00:18:58,086 --> 00:19:03,586 that you instantly had access to you can learn from anyone out there um so it's been just a ton 324 00:19:03,586 --> 00:19:10,086 of different people from all over the globe uh all over the place and uh even today i don't 325 00:19:10,086 --> 00:19:12,326 necessarily look to certain people. 326 00:19:13,166 --> 00:19:15,106 But let's say I want to get design inspiration. 327 00:19:15,306 --> 00:19:17,186 It's as simple as going to the grocery store. 328 00:19:17,726 --> 00:19:23,886 If you look, for example, the design of craft beer cans or bottles, super different than 329 00:19:23,886 --> 00:19:28,746 if you go to the makeup section and skincare products, for example. 330 00:19:29,566 --> 00:19:33,406 All over the place, design inspiration for me is really everywhere. 331 00:19:33,766 --> 00:19:38,366 And the thing that's important with design is that sometimes we're very blind to what's 332 00:19:38,366 --> 00:19:39,026 in front of us. 333 00:19:40,086 --> 00:19:45,566 being able, like, when you use, you know, your iPhone or your Android phone, 334 00:19:45,646 --> 00:19:48,206 or so if you pay really close attention to how you feel in different moments, 335 00:19:48,286 --> 00:19:50,706 how you react to them, the patterns that they're used to, 336 00:19:50,746 --> 00:19:52,326 where you get stuck in all of this stuff, 337 00:19:52,906 --> 00:19:56,426 you can actually learn a lot from that and then use that in your design work 338 00:19:56,426 --> 00:19:58,006 or even observing people. 339 00:19:58,246 --> 00:20:01,586 Like, when I take the bus or the subway, I don't stare at people. 340 00:20:01,686 --> 00:20:02,946 Of course not. I never would. 341 00:20:03,306 --> 00:20:05,886 But I do kind of look over my shoulder a little bit and see, like, 342 00:20:05,886 --> 00:20:07,286 you know, how are they using TikTok? 343 00:20:07,606 --> 00:20:09,586 Like, how are they navigating? Where are they getting stuck? 344 00:20:09,586 --> 00:20:11,546 Do they have accessibility tools enabled? 345 00:20:11,786 --> 00:20:17,026 If you pay attention, a lot of people have made the text a bit bolder and bigger than the default settings or so. 346 00:20:17,106 --> 00:20:18,586 That gives you all some insights. 347 00:20:19,266 --> 00:20:23,106 So for me, it is really all over the place. 348 00:20:23,866 --> 00:20:30,546 We just need to be off our phones and paying attention and just having our creative, observant mindset going. 349 00:20:31,106 --> 00:20:36,126 Yeah, I mean, the world is like a super inspiring and amazing place, right? 350 00:20:36,126 --> 00:20:39,626 And we have access to all the history of all information in the world. 351 00:20:40,626 --> 00:20:41,506 It's all right there. 352 00:20:41,906 --> 00:20:42,866 You know, just need to learn. 353 00:20:42,986 --> 00:20:45,806 And even with AI now, we can completely question ourselves. 354 00:20:46,046 --> 00:20:52,306 If we create a new design, throw it into Cloud or JetGPD, ask it to review it, it does a pretty good job, right? 355 00:20:52,666 --> 00:20:55,986 We have so much power and information at our fingertips. 356 00:20:56,226 --> 00:20:57,606 It's an amazing place to be in. 357 00:20:58,246 --> 00:20:58,506 Yeah. 358 00:20:59,546 --> 00:21:00,066 It's amazing. 359 00:21:00,226 --> 00:21:01,046 Well, I love that. 360 00:21:01,426 --> 00:21:02,426 A couple more questions. 361 00:21:02,426 --> 00:21:08,026 So I guess kind of like leaning into just being inspired by a lot of things around you. 362 00:21:08,266 --> 00:21:15,166 Are there any kind of books or articles or podcasts that you've listened to recently that blew your mind that you would like to share? 363 00:21:15,166 --> 00:21:23,406 So a book that blew my mind several years ago was called Understanding Comics, but I think his name is Scott MacLeod. 364 00:21:23,746 --> 00:21:25,306 And it is about comics, right? 365 00:21:25,806 --> 00:21:31,486 How comics work, how stories are told panel by panel, how when we read it, 366 00:21:31,486 --> 00:21:36,086 how our expectations like all the subconscious stuff that happens from the different perspectives 367 00:21:36,086 --> 00:21:42,466 or how time is told through different panels and it is such an amazing and interesting analysis of 368 00:21:42,466 --> 00:21:48,266 how we perceive information and how text and image work together complement each other um 369 00:21:48,266 --> 00:21:54,566 it's kind of surprising but this is some design book that i think is absolutely amazing so 370 00:21:54,566 --> 00:21:56,586 understanding comics, I would totally 371 00:21:56,586 --> 00:21:58,226 recommend that one. 372 00:21:59,446 --> 00:22:00,926 On the other hand, 373 00:22:01,366 --> 00:22:02,546 I feel like 374 00:22:02,546 --> 00:22:04,686 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I think 375 00:22:04,686 --> 00:22:06,506 there was a much better design community 376 00:22:06,506 --> 00:22:07,326 online. 377 00:22:08,546 --> 00:22:10,526 There was a time, a long time ago, 378 00:22:10,626 --> 00:22:12,886 with Flash, early 2000s 379 00:22:12,886 --> 00:22:14,666 or so, where it really felt like we're 380 00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:16,166 breaking new territory, we're 381 00:22:16,166 --> 00:22:18,646 discovering new ground here with this digital design. 382 00:22:19,126 --> 00:22:20,646 And now things are a little bit more established 383 00:22:20,646 --> 00:22:23,166 and there's less of an 384 00:22:23,166 --> 00:22:24,366 adventurous spirit around. 385 00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:29,906 But we can have that in Bitcoin because there's a lot of ground here and new things to explore. 386 00:22:30,826 --> 00:22:34,806 But yeah, I'm less so inspired by digital design these days. 387 00:22:34,926 --> 00:22:38,606 Maybe it's also just having more experience and having seen more things. 388 00:22:38,706 --> 00:22:40,206 So no particular design podcast. 389 00:22:40,926 --> 00:22:48,946 I also think, you know, this probably goes for a lot of people that COVID kind of killed a lot of meetups and these kind of inspirational in-person events. 390 00:22:49,406 --> 00:22:49,726 We're back. 391 00:22:50,326 --> 00:22:51,706 We're back here at Presidio Bitcoin. 392 00:22:52,486 --> 00:22:53,266 Yeah, now we can do it. 393 00:22:53,266 --> 00:22:53,946 Now we can do it. 394 00:22:53,946 --> 00:22:56,546 Just took, you know, years to get a restart. 395 00:22:56,866 --> 00:23:01,086 But I could ask you so many more questions, but we're out of time. 396 00:23:01,406 --> 00:23:03,106 So really quick, last question. 397 00:23:03,846 --> 00:23:10,426 If you could leave our listeners with a single thought about Bitcoin or just anything, what would it be? 398 00:23:10,766 --> 00:23:12,326 I think it is super simple. 399 00:23:12,326 --> 00:23:16,386 We need to make magic internet money feel more magical. 400 00:23:16,986 --> 00:23:17,546 That's it. 401 00:23:17,546 --> 00:23:25,266 No matter how you get there, if you want to use it, it should feel trustworthy and magical and powerful and empowering. 402 00:23:25,806 --> 00:23:26,206 Right. 403 00:23:26,406 --> 00:23:28,266 And we just need to work towards that. 404 00:23:28,506 --> 00:23:29,466 That's it, basically. 405 00:23:29,746 --> 00:23:31,246 And it's hard to get there, right? 406 00:23:31,286 --> 00:23:31,666 I get it. 407 00:23:31,686 --> 00:23:33,506 But that's a simple goal. 408 00:23:34,006 --> 00:23:34,846 It's good to have simple goals. 409 00:23:35,486 --> 00:23:37,226 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. 410 00:23:37,226 --> 00:23:46,866 If our listeners want to follow along your work, learn more about you, well, one, they should definitely subscribe to your sub stack because you are a good sub stack writer. 411 00:23:46,866 --> 00:23:48,246 but where else 412 00:23:48,246 --> 00:23:49,266 what else should they do 413 00:23:49,266 --> 00:23:50,746 my sub stack is at 414 00:23:50,746 --> 00:23:51,506 gbks 415 00:23:51,506 --> 00:23:52,486 Germany's best kept secret 416 00:23:52,486 --> 00:23:53,946 dot sub stack 417 00:23:53,946 --> 00:23:54,726 dot com 418 00:23:54,726 --> 00:23:55,486 and these days 419 00:23:55,486 --> 00:23:56,686 I actually 420 00:23:56,686 --> 00:23:57,766 kind of get boring 421 00:23:57,766 --> 00:23:58,066 and 422 00:23:58,066 --> 00:23:59,786 just recommend my LinkedIn 423 00:23:59,786 --> 00:24:00,546 which is also 424 00:24:00,546 --> 00:24:01,646 Germany's best kept secret 425 00:24:01,646 --> 00:24:02,586 or Christoph Ono 426 00:24:02,586 --> 00:24:03,446 there 427 00:24:03,446 --> 00:24:04,046 those are kind of 428 00:24:04,046 --> 00:24:04,946 good places to see 429 00:24:04,946 --> 00:24:05,986 what's going on 430 00:24:05,986 --> 00:24:06,606 easy 431 00:24:06,606 --> 00:24:07,506 well 432 00:24:07,506 --> 00:24:09,026 thanks for coming here 433 00:24:09,026 --> 00:24:09,886 and 434 00:24:09,886 --> 00:24:11,026 really excited for the next 435 00:24:11,026 --> 00:24:11,946 few days of 436 00:24:11,946 --> 00:24:12,886 Bitcoin Design Week 437 00:24:12,886 --> 00:24:13,446 same here 438 00:24:13,446 --> 00:24:14,046 fingers crossed 439 00:24:14,046 --> 00:24:14,726 it'll be awesome 440 00:24:14,726 --> 00:24:15,666 if you can still make it 441 00:24:15,666 --> 00:24:16,446 you know 442 00:24:16,446 --> 00:24:16,806 amazing 443 00:24:16,806 --> 00:24:18,026 and we'll also try to make sure 444 00:24:18,026 --> 00:24:19,046 we'll make sure to do 445 00:24:19,046 --> 00:24:20,066 a post a follow-up 446 00:24:20,066 --> 00:24:20,686 and summaries 447 00:24:20,686 --> 00:24:22,306 and all of this stuff online. 448 00:24:22,686 --> 00:24:23,786 Yeah, I think that the recordings 449 00:24:23,786 --> 00:24:25,346 of the past few days 450 00:24:25,346 --> 00:24:26,466 maybe are on 451 00:24:26,466 --> 00:24:27,406 Presidio Bitcoin's YouTube. 452 00:24:27,646 --> 00:24:28,006 I'm not sure, 453 00:24:28,186 --> 00:24:29,646 but we'll get those all 454 00:24:29,646 --> 00:24:30,366 live for people. 455 00:24:30,686 --> 00:24:30,826 Yep. 456 00:24:31,326 --> 00:24:31,606 Awesome. 457 00:24:31,946 --> 00:24:32,146 Great. 458 00:24:32,506 --> 00:24:33,106 Thanks so much.