Christoph, welcome to 21 in 21.
Thanks so much for having me.
This feels super special being here in San Francisco, first of all, then in this Bitcoin
space.
On top of that and having a design week, it feels crazy.
There's so much going on.
It's so great to have you in town.
For those of you that don't know Christoph, Christoph Ono, he's also known as Germany's
best kept secret, GBKS on social.
and he's a UX and product designer
working on open source design
and the Bitcoin ecosystem.
He's largely involved
with the Bitcoin design community.
He co-founded
the Bitcoin Design Foundation
and has for a long time
been part of the extended
Spiral crew
through our grant program.
Yes, it's quite a handful.
Yes, you do a lot.
It's fun.
I like it.
That's great.
And you're about to do even more
because now I'm going to ask you
a bunch of questions.
Go for it.
I'm ready.
Okay.
You're ready.
So my first question, which you kind of briefly already mentioned,
is that you're here all the way from Germany for the Bitcoin Design Week.
Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about it and how you think it's going so far?
It's been really incredible.
This is the first time that we're in the Bitcoin Design community.
We're actually organizing our own events.
So far, we've done some satellite events like BTC Prague Design Track at the DevHack Day.
And this is really a whole week just about design, which I don't think, I didn't feel like we ever, that's something that we would ever do. And it's so awesome. It's been a great collaboration with you guys from Presidio here, from the co-working space. It's a perfect place for it.
And it's super exciting to be able to get the San Francisco crowd in here and just talk about the things that we slave over day by day for the last five years, pretty much, and trying to get Bitcoin more into the world and adopted and used by people.
It feels very special.
And it's been two really great days.
People are engaged.
We've had some really good talks.
And it's been a great atmosphere.
So I'm excited for today and then two more days tomorrow and Friday.
Yeah, the next few days, we're going to be having full days.
So we've been having kind of these after work events, which have been really well attended.
So shout out to you guys.
I mean, this has been like a full house so far.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
And the really nice thing was I did a talk that was planned for like 25, 30 minutes on Monday.
And then it turned out in an hour because people had so many questions.
And then other people in the audience answered those questions.
And we went all over the place.
And it was super cool.
So I did not expect so much engagement.
Really appreciate that.
Yes, I've, well, I didn't make a Monday night, but last night I thought it was really interesting. I'm going tonight, tomorrow, the next few days. So we'll be sure to give everybody an update once it's done. But yes, I'm excited for all of the good things that come out of it. So one of the themes of the week is designing future money. What does that mean kind of compared to designing for traditional fintech finance apps?
Yeah, we have a very crazy ambition.
It's absolutely insane what Bitcoin is trying to do, right?
And that was kind of the vision here.
And though it's called design future money, it's not like designing, making Bitcoin better, right?
We wanted to really tackle the topic of money itself.
So Monday also we picked up on the history of money a little bit, barter, gold, fiat money backed by gold, and then government backed fiat money today.
and then the idea of what money could look like in the 21st century
with all this exciting tech that we have
and kind of what we would want from that money
and then kind of how Bitcoin fits into that, right?
So really starting from the basics of what we're trying to achieve
and then what a solution might look like
and then digging deep into how that's actually been playing out
now that we're 15 years into the Bitcoin experiment
and then kind of what should happen next,
how that could play out in maybe the next 15 years.
So it's, you know, we're not assuming that people who come here know Bitcoin or are convinced by Bitcoin already bought.
And we really wanted to start from the basics here, which has also been in preparing some of the talks.
It's been a really great exercise.
Makes us, you know, research and really think about what we're doing and be able to articulate it very clearly.
Yes, I actually met somebody last night and it was his first Bitcoin meetup ever.
He just found it on Luma and was really excited about it.
So that was really fun to hear about.
So I'm glad that it feels so approachable and exciting for people.
Yeah, it's been a nice mix of people.
Some devs are here, some investors are here,
people from different companies,
from some of the well-known companies here in the area as well.
And the conversations have been all over the place,
which is awesome because then you get these different viewpoints
and you kind of learn about the role of money too
and everyone learns from each other
and then we can figure out what we're going to do with Bitcoin
to address all this stuff and make it even better.
Well, one of the other unique things of this event,
being in San Francisco and kind of part of Presidio Bitcoin's mission generally,
is trying to bridge this gap between Bitcoin and Silicon Valley.
What opportunity do you think for designers that are here locally
that maybe have more of that big tech or startup experience?
Like, what do you think that they can be doing for Bitcoin?
Why should they be excited about Bitcoin?
You know, I'll go back to what excited me about Bitcoin. When I started getting into Bitcoin, I had about 15 years of experience in the digital design space, working for design agencies, freelancing, working with startups, working with big companies. And I thought, I kind of know the internet. I know we can do it. I've seen it all. We've got to figure it out.
And then this thing came around and it's like, what, we can do money as well?
That's a thing.
It is possible.
And anyone can contribute and we can build our own applications.
And they don't have to look like whatever, you know, your bank would create or what a
global corporation would create.
It can be what I want it to be what we as a community want it to be So I think there a really awesome design space and a lot of creativity and freedom And the people that work in this space they think that way too They not bound by you know
let's say starting with like our, you know,
our corporate requirements, business model,
or this and this.
It's like, no, really broadly,
what should this be like?
What do we want it to be?
And so for me as a designer,
that's obviously really, really exciting, right?
We have all this creative freedom.
So I think that's something, if anyone likes to tinker, is a little bit adventurous, wants to explore, this is just an amazing space to be in.
And they can go to the Bitcoin design community, Discord?
Yes, bitcoin.design, that's the place to go.
So we have tons of materials, like resources, UI kit, the Bitcoin design guide.
and then the heart of it is this Discord
which is basically meant as an open place
where you can join and
people share projects that they're working on
they discuss challenges they're working on
or they look for
contributors
and we also have a newsletter
sometimes Discord, we're all part of
lots of telegrams and discourse and whatnot
if you can't keep up with everything, just sign up for the newsletter
we do design review calls
and all this stuff, so if you just join in there
poke around a little bit
there's usually
you'll find something interesting.
Open source takes a little bit
moment to kind of find your place
as it is with any community. If you move to
a different city, if you join
a tennis club or so, it takes a moment.
It's the same here.
But I think generally, I think we have a very open
friendly, approachable space and there's a lot of
really cool projects happening.
Events like this one here.
Yes. Come here.
If you're local to San
Francisco and you're curious about Bitcoin, we
pretty much have an event every Thursday. Sadly, Christoph is not here every Thursday,
but I am. And we have Builder, which happens the third Thursday of the month. So next week,
if I get this podcast out in time, I'll show it because the Builder event is next week. So
we're actually trying to get a lot of designers at Builder and hopefully getting Builder events
more worldwide because it's a great opportunity for people who are design, product, marketing
minded who also are intrigued by AI vibe coding to kind of get together and really talk about
what's possible to build with bitcoins it's fun some cool stuff yes um so you obviously do a lot
I've known you for a while I feel like your name is everywhere I don't know how you have time for
everything thank you for your contributions what are you currently really excited about right now
So something I have been excited about and I'm still very excited about is that we're actually redesigning Satoshi's original client, the Bitcoin Qt desktop application, which still looks kind of like the way it looked when we hit it come out 12 years ago or so.
We're rebuilding it from scratch.
It's been a project that's been in the works for four years.
It implements tons of best practices that we have in the Bitcoin design guide and the
Bitcoin design community.
Updates this desktop-based QT wallet to something that works cross-platform, initially mostly
in desktop, but the design is also going to work on Android devices, for example, maybe
iOS in the future too.
So I think this is a major upgrade, right?
this is kind of the first Bitcoin wallet ever that set the tone for, you know, this whole,
you know, Bitcoin ecosystem and even the larger crypto ecosystem around it, right?
And if we can get that one up to date with the latest best practices, make it super usable,
it has the most reviewed code base.
Of course, it's Bitcoin Core, right?
So it takes its time as everything with Bitcoin Core, but I think we're so close.
I'm so excited about it.
So BitcoinCore.app is the website for it if you like design documentation.
And there's an alpha version out.
You can make Cygnet transactions.
You can run a node.
Still figuring out some of the integration stuff with the Bitcoin Core code base.
But that is something I am feeling so close.
And it'll be such an amazing thing to have out there in people's hands.
And you know, that might get, potentially, it allows billions of Android devices to run
their own nodes.
that's that is that is a big deal that is a big deal so this is going to be totally self-custodial
wallet that people can just like download on their phone correct just like right now the bitcoin qt
wallet you double click it it runs a node and you have your wallet that's how it's basic i mean
bitcoin was launched as a desktop application basically and this is the same thing except that
it looks modern has best practices baked in and it also runs on your android device just tap it
It runs a node.
Of course, it takes some time on an Android device to do your IBD, your initial block download.
But then you have a full wallet, self-custodial, run your own node, be part of the network.
And that's super cool.
This must have been really fun for designers, too, to kind of have a big say in the UX to really promote a good user experience, especially for new people.
It feels like a lot of responsibility because we wanted to make sure that we also build a very universal design foundation and design system that over the decades to follow, ideally.
We wanted to build for the long term this design system and this UI as well.
So if, let's say, five years now or 10 years now, this is being iterated, that there are clear guidelines, that it will stay coherent, that new features can be implemented well.
This is something that the old project didn't have, right?
so it felt it was super cool but also just felt kind of very heavy and meaningful and
a little bit historical i guess yeah and i this is another example of designers working with
developers um how has that experience been how do you go about kind of working with
developers and getting them really thinking about design um so the way i i really dislike the idea
And I see it all the time.
I've done design for 20 years.
I so many times I see like there's there's a gap between them or so.
But the reality is we all work together and it's not just designers and developers.
We just do different things.
We work on the same thing There are translators project managers people who review the code people who manage the build system We all just working on one thing and we just do different things and we talk about the overlaps and everything And that it We have a goal
to make something cool and we just work together to do that. Now with the design process, a good
design process, in my experience, oftentimes I say designing is planning that where you do not
figure out your design in code.
You do that ahead of time.
So we've designed
years ahead for the project
of what the implementation is.
So we've designed features
like silent payments
or hardware external
signers and whatnot that will not
make it into the application until maybe next
year. But by designing
ahead of time, by doing the designs, by doing
the prototyping, doing the documentation,
anyone can participate and review
it and say, yeah, this is well thought out, this is going to work for me and all this stuff.
And then when development comes around, development becomes much easier because everyone's already on
board, everyone's seen it, everyone's tried it out in a prototype, and it makes for a much,
much smoother process. It does take some time to get used to, generally. It's a lot more documentation,
but I do think it's a more thorough and productive process.
I love that. That's actually someone has told me that in the past when I was having like imposter syndrome with like getting a new job and moving. She was just kind of like, you know, we kind of all just like do the same thing. We just like build stuff, make it cool. Like, so yeah, I love that you think that too.
Are there any other projects that the design community has like helped make an impact on and like what kind of UX tweaks have you done?
Yeah, it's been a lot of different projects.
You know, it's been five years.
Actually, check out five.bitcoin.design, like F-I-V-E,
because we just created a five-year report
that shows all the 80-plus projects
that the community has kind of touched in one way or another.
Some things were, you know, very small things,
like just having a bit of a design review session,
giving feedback, and other projects were founded
and created and maintained by the community,
like the Bitcoin Sign Kit, Bitcoin Icons,
the design guide.
Saving Satoshi, it's something I worked on, which is an educational project for if you want to learn Bitcoin coding through a sci-fi story.
Appreciate that one.
And so, you know, early on, a long time ago, Spectre came to the community and they had some very, very specific design problems, UX problems that they wanted some help with.
That was an early one.
Then we've done a ton of design review sessions where people get together.
We talk about a specific part of the user flow.
We give feedback.
We summarize it.
We send it back.
And then teams often, it's kind of up to them in a way to then kind of start implementing it.
But sometimes a little bit hard for me personally to know exactly what comes out at the end and to measure the impact there.
But let me see.
What are some other examples?
Wallet Scrutiny is someone where we did a whole redesign of their website.
And yeah, I can't think of any other.
But go to the website, five.bitcoindotdesign, 80 plus projects that touched in one way or another.
But that's also the cool thing that it's a community of several thousand people that even for me who spends a lot of time on there, I can't even keep, say, on top of everything that's happening.
It's just kind of buzzing.
Yeah, it's a really good report.
Very well designed.
I love the website.
That's the past five years.
What's your vision for the next five years for either the Bitcoin design community or maybe the Bitcoin design foundation?
Yeah, so it's a community.
I'm not the person who should say, this is what we're going to do, right?
It's meant to be really where the technology goes, where the people go, what they want to work on.
Everyone can kind of have their own say in what they want to do.
Now, we've seen some patterns,
and I think the part being the Bitcoin Design Foundation,
it has become more of a go-to point where people say,
hey, we'd love to do this.
For example, a year ago, we've had Bitshala reach out,
which is an organization in India,
does a lot of developer education
and organized a lot of events there in Bangalore, I think.
And they said, well, we have a developer education track.
We'd love to have a design track as well.
And we make that happen.
So we're like, cool, of course we'll do that.
So we've gotten some inbound requests around education.
Bitcoin Datas wanted to have a workshop, Plan B.
Eric did a workshop there recently.
So building out more the education track, there's been a lot of interest in doing that.
We'll need some more support if you love doing education, if you like design to help us.
There's something.
then another tricky thing where i think the community and foundation are well placed is to
support interoperability for example a new feature comes out silent payments for example
it's not really clear how it should surface in the interface how we communicate how this
new thing works to people we in the community we can bring people together we can figure out
what that maybe should be like and then we can work with different projects to implement that
in the interfaces.
So not everyone has to reinvent the wheel.
And then in the end,
different users have a very similar experience
where they can simply just use their Bitcoin
without everyone having to figure out
how the interface works and how it ties in.
Those are some big areas.
Lots of exciting things to come.
Shifting gears a little bit.
Are there any designers or thinkers
that have really influenced
the way that you approach Bitcoin design?
or Bitcoin generally?
Does it have to be Bitcoin?
No, it's not. Sorry, it doesn't have to be about Bitcoin.
Just design, generally.
Yeah. So I studied traditional graphic design
or visual communication design.
So, you know, I have your classics like,
what is it, Dieter Rams,
who came up with 10 principles of design,
you know, less but better, for example,
or design Check it out Check it out Dieter Rams He also inspired you know johnny ive and apple and all of this stuff so i come back to a lot of these type of things but for me it uh i started on the
internet when i studied design you know i would go to the library i would pop up tons of books and
magazines around this i would learn from everything it was product design architecture graphic design
fashion design anything and then on the internet even when my teacher in my school our teacher
would show us certain i would go on the internet there was a broad global world of of of design
that you instantly had access to you can learn from anyone out there um so it's been just a ton
of different people from all over the globe uh all over the place and uh even today i don't
necessarily look to certain people.
But let's say I want to get design inspiration.
It's as simple as going to the grocery store.
If you look, for example, the design of craft beer cans or bottles, super different than
if you go to the makeup section and skincare products, for example.
All over the place, design inspiration for me is really everywhere.
And the thing that's important with design is that sometimes we're very blind to what's
in front of us.
being able, like, when you use, you know, your iPhone or your Android phone,
or so if you pay really close attention to how you feel in different moments,
how you react to them, the patterns that they're used to,
where you get stuck in all of this stuff,
you can actually learn a lot from that and then use that in your design work
or even observing people.
Like, when I take the bus or the subway, I don't stare at people.
Of course not. I never would.
But I do kind of look over my shoulder a little bit and see, like,
you know, how are they using TikTok?
Like, how are they navigating? Where are they getting stuck?
Do they have accessibility tools enabled?
If you pay attention, a lot of people have made the text a bit bolder and bigger than the default settings or so.
That gives you all some insights.
So for me, it is really all over the place.
We just need to be off our phones and paying attention and just having our creative, observant mindset going.
Yeah, I mean, the world is like a super inspiring and amazing place, right?
And we have access to all the history of all information in the world.
It's all right there.
You know, just need to learn.
And even with AI now, we can completely question ourselves.
If we create a new design, throw it into Cloud or JetGPD, ask it to review it, it does a pretty good job, right?
We have so much power and information at our fingertips.
It's an amazing place to be in.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
Well, I love that.
A couple more questions.
So I guess kind of like leaning into just being inspired by a lot of things around you.
Are there any kind of books or articles or podcasts that you've listened to recently that blew your mind that you would like to share?
So a book that blew my mind several years ago was called Understanding Comics, but I think his name is Scott MacLeod.
And it is about comics, right?
How comics work, how stories are told panel by panel, how when we read it,
how our expectations like all the subconscious stuff that happens from the different perspectives
or how time is told through different panels and it is such an amazing and interesting analysis of
how we perceive information and how text and image work together complement each other um
it's kind of surprising but this is some design book that i think is absolutely amazing so
understanding comics, I would totally
recommend that one.
On the other hand,
I feel like
10 years ago, 15 years ago, I think
there was a much better design community
online.
There was a time, a long time ago,
with Flash, early 2000s
or so, where it really felt like we're
breaking new territory, we're
discovering new ground here with this digital design.
And now things are a little bit more established
and there's less of an
adventurous spirit around.
But we can have that in Bitcoin because there's a lot of ground here and new things to explore.
But yeah, I'm less so inspired by digital design these days.
Maybe it's also just having more experience and having seen more things.
So no particular design podcast.
I also think, you know, this probably goes for a lot of people that COVID kind of killed a lot of meetups and these kind of inspirational in-person events.
We're back.
We're back here at Presidio Bitcoin.
Yeah, now we can do it.
Now we can do it.
Just took, you know, years to get a restart.
But I could ask you so many more questions, but we're out of time.
So really quick, last question.
If you could leave our listeners with a single thought about Bitcoin or just anything, what would it be?
I think it is super simple.
We need to make magic internet money feel more magical.
That's it.
No matter how you get there, if you want to use it, it should feel trustworthy and magical and powerful and empowering.
Right.
And we just need to work towards that.
That's it, basically.
And it's hard to get there, right?
I get it.
But that's a simple goal.
It's good to have simple goals.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
If our listeners want to follow along your work, learn more about you, well, one, they should definitely subscribe to your sub stack because you are a good sub stack writer.
but where else
what else should they do
my sub stack is at
gbks
Germany's best kept secret
dot sub stack
dot com
and these days
I actually
kind of get boring
and
just recommend my LinkedIn
which is also
Germany's best kept secret
or Christoph Ono
there
those are kind of
good places to see
what's going on
easy
well
thanks for coming here
and
really excited for the next
few days of
Bitcoin Design Week
same here
fingers crossed
it'll be awesome
if you can still make it
you know
amazing
and we'll also try to make sure
we'll make sure to do
a post a follow-up
and summaries
and all of this stuff online.
Yeah, I think that the recordings
of the past few days
maybe are on
Presidio Bitcoin's YouTube.
I'm not sure,
but we'll get those all
live for people.
Yep.
Awesome.
Great.
Thanks so much.