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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 165 of the Free Cities podcast, brought to you by Veritas

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Villages, our wonderful lead sponsors of this show. They're building off-grid, freedom-oriented

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communities in Latin America. I'm sure you all knew that. You also know that their communities

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will appeal to you if you're a freedom lover looking to live amongst like-minded individuals

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in places like Nicaragua, Panama,

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and their new place in Costa Rica

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for the Bitcoiners amongst you.

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You can buy your property with Bitcoin

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and you can spend BTC at all their communities.

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And they can even help you mine Bitcoin

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with the excess energy

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that your home will inevitably produce.

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That's what they set their places up to do.

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Be energy self-sufficient.

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They're self-sovereign communities.

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It's www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities.

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Everything you could ever need to know about Veritas Villages is in the show notes,

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including some interviews with Patrick Hibbert, who's the founder of the company.

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And if you listen to those, there's hours of him talking.

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You'll get a good sense of who they are and whether or not you would like to do business with them.

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Right. New year, new plan for your self-sovereign life.

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Maybe it's a Veritas village or maybe the project in today's show should be on your radar.

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Rahim Tagisadegan.

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It's taken me a while to be able to say Tagisadegan.

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I can say it every time now.

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Rahim Tagisadegan is an Austrian economist and philosopher.

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Best known as the founder and director of Scalarium in Vienna.

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He's a real Austrian Austrian economist.

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scolariums and independent institute for advanced economic and philosophical study he works

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primarily in the austrian school tradition focusing on capital theory entrepreneurship

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epistemology and the limits of state intervention that was chat gpt's bio from my bio of rahim well

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he's been in the free city space for a very long time since the start you could say in fact he's

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the former director of the Free Cities Foundation, amongst other things.

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And today he joins me to talk about his project, Citadel Garden.

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Now, as you will no doubt hear if you listen on,

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this project is not a very public-facing project at all.

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Rahim has been kind enough to elaborate on much of the nuts and bolts of it,

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but really it's a very highly vetted project.

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However, if you're listening and you think you might make a good member of the project, Rahim has said that you can get in touch.

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More will be apparent as you listen on.

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Here is Fountain's summary using their AI.

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It's a pretty good one.

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And in this episode of the Free Cities podcast, Rahim Taghazadegan discusses Citadel Garden, a network of semi-private places offering plan B options for families seeking mobility and freedom inspired by Austrian economics and the Bitcoin ethos of optionality.

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key topics bitcoin citadels and mobility austrian economics and exit citadel.garden and proprietary

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communities and geopolitical concerns and mobility he talked about mobility twice anyway according to

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me does what it says on the tin as we say in the uk he discusses the project and everything you

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would probably need to know you will find in the next hour of conversation all will be revealed

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right i think it's time i gave a proper good shout out to my og subscribers on value for value that's

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fountain.fm in my case many thanks to justin bianchi origin drums nicholas shadrach set in stone

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ant christopher albanese bullish mike matthias you are my heroes guys and you really actually

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are making a difference to this show not least your subs give me a great mental boost when i

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see them coming into the free cities podcast account so many many thanks to you all and

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if you want to join these legends get on a value for value platform like i said earlier fountain.fm

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would be the one i would choose it's my favorite and there you can subscribe for six dollars a

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month for early access to every show bonus episodes and shout outs talking of shout outs

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if you're a subscriber you'll get a guaranteed one i did say before christmas i would start

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doing all the shout outs because my subscribers are quite quiet which is true so here we go i

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forgot to do it last week let's run through the shout outs mr rabbit change is a necessity talking

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about 163 yaron brooks episode about why atlas shrugged keeps happening to society p.s many

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thanks uh a salute a bit of beef a mushroom and a strong arm also about yaron brooks episode

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christopher albanese he's just throwing money at me no no comment at all thanks chris twice

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many thanks and that on top of a very generous private donation he gave us through stripe using

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fiat so thanks chris piaz again talking about vladimir leshko you will live forever if you

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choose to that was a longevity episode more salutes and mushrooms and strong arms and swen

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lawrences from piaz thank you demography is destiny talking about sark and uh geopolitics

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justin bianchi talking about swen lawrence's sark episode i was looking forward to the update

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on sark so was i it was quite a it's quite a sobering one i think that was episode 161 uh

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justin again just throwing some sats our way for mark edge's episode the freedom to leave many

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thanks and what do we have here finally gardus yep that just no message just to the podcast

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justin again justin bianchi favorite pod of the year that was 153 with daniel prince the grand

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conspiracy number two dan talking about all the latest conspiracy theories on his radar justin

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again talking about the prosper episode with trey goff which is one of my favorites from last year

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love the project best of luck to you guys at prosper right time for the alpha time for rahim

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time to also as always sit back relax and enjoy my conversation with rahim tagizad again

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We last met at BTC Prague and I got the kind of, I got the 101 on you, backstory, what you've done.

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And I think at the time you were talking about Bitcoin Citadels at BTC Prague and in a way now you you well it looks like you actually kind of in the process of making Bitcoin Citadels I mean obviously what you currently doing

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and this is what I'd like to start talking about, is based on everything you know and all the ideas

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about having Bitcoin Citadels. Is that fair to say? I know it's not exactly a, you know,

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I think a lot of Bitcoiners, when they think of a Bitcoin Citadel, they've got some kind of

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vision of something out of lord of the rings with big towers and and walls around the edge and stuff

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like that but what you're doing which is called wait a minute what is it called citadel.garden

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that's it citadel.garden it has characteristics of all this stuff is that fair to say well it's just

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a brand and citadel citadel is a meme the bitcoin citadel is a meme memes draw attention and then

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Sometimes they get shifted from the original meaning to something else.

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And it was meant to be a very negative meme, kind of mocking Bitcoiners.

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And it was turned into something positive because the reproach against Bitcoiners was,

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oh, you're just all going to get rich and then withdraw from society.

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And that's so evil and selfish.

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But if you see that mobility of like not endlessly complaining,

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but doing something differently and bearing all this uncertainty,

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then of course you can take it as something positively.

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Of course, with Bitcoin as a kind of exit from the fiat system

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and exit usually is much more powerful than voice,

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than just complaining what most people think politics is all about.

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The funny thing is though, I never used to think that the Citadel,

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as in the Bitcoin Citadel meme, was negative.

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because, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong,

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it came from an old Reddit.

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Was it the Reddit time traveler?

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Yeah, right.

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Okay.

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So it was a guy who said he was a time traveler

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from the future.

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And he said, don't buy it.

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We've got to stop Bitcoin

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because what happens in the future

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is all the Bitcoiners get so unbelievably wealthy.

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Yeah, like 100K,

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like unimaginable number at the time.

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Did he say that?

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Yeah.

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Did he say 100K?

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Well, he could have done some sums

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and worked out that that wasn't probably enough.

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But it was like at one.

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And then, of course, it'll be more and more like millions.

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Yeah, but he must have realized that it would be divided amongst many more people by that point.

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But yeah, his idea was that society became two-tiered and the super wealthy were the Bitcoiners.

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And they kind of blocked themselves away in Citadels and everyone lived without Bitcoin.

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Is that right?

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Now, I didn't necessarily think that was...

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I thought it was probably quite true, actually, because I thought not in the sense that it was Bitcoiners necessarily, but in the sense that it was happening amongst people.

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you know it didn't need to be a bitcoin or it just needed to be pure people who understood the fiat

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system and consequently the bitcoin standard and against people that what you would call a normie

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that didn't understand any of this stuff and therefore missed this kind of transitional

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opportunity that appears to be presenting itself so i didn't necessarily think it was negative but

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but you you think you think the majority of people saw that as a negative oh it was meant to be

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negative really yeah do you ever know who it was then like who was the who was the guy that

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really no i mean there was a name attached to the italian one i don't even remember right but it was

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it was but was it someone trying to was it like someone shit posting or was it someone actually

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trying to to to to sort of you know create that's a good question no i i thought it was a thoughtful

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posting and it had some truth in it and it was seen as a challenge by bitcoiners yes this issue

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of being perceived because still to this day there's this meme of saying have fun staying poor

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if to the normies who don't get it and of course there's a risk but then it's really hard to

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understand that the world is shaped like it is and will have with or without bitcoin there'll be a

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many tired society and there'll be those who have an exit and those who don't those who have options

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and those who don't have options bitcoin just offers more options and not exclusively to the

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super wealthy because you could be early in beer and you're still early in bitcoin you don't have

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to be super wealthy to get into bitcoin you have to be super wealthy to get into the hottest we see

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deals these days that bring you like the unicorn multiples but with bitcoin you can have those

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unicorn multiples without being super rich what do you think about the meme now you yourself

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personally do you think it's is that a negative no no now it's uh predominantly positive so a lot

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A lot of Bitcoin is referred to it.

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And of course, Bitcoin has become a much more broadly perceived phenomenon

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and has reached more corners of society.

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And it's not this like, oh, I have never seen a Bitcoin.

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And if I met one, he was this really strange guy.

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It's in particular, I live in Switzerland and there's something very common.

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You have like Bitcoin on the back of the public buses

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because the banks are reversing it already.

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So it's not these exclusive elites somewhere hiding in a citadel.

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So the citadel theory, would you say it began with Bitcoin, but now it's just living?

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Oh, no, no.

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The theory behind this is much earlier and it's inspired by the Austrian School of Economics

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and that realism that realized pretty early on that you should not bank yourself on the

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institutions in a society that is in a civilizational crisis.

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and really the biggest hope for liberty is mobility of people and mobility of capital.

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And just Bitcoin emerged in the side of mobility of capital thing.

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And once you have mobile capital, probably you realize that you can be more mobile

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and you have more options for mobility as a person.

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And it's still true to these days and has been truer and truer.

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And it's also behind the free cities scene mainly.

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More and more people realizing that there are actually options.

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because with the rise of the centralized nation states,

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mode of living has become very common.

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It does seem like there is no alternative.

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Like you have your credit rate to pay back

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because you have to afford the house that you live in

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because the job is nearby and the job pays for the credit

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that you have to pay back.

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So you're in this kind of loop and you're very dependent

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and you get very anxious if you have doubts

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about the institutional structure around you.

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And then either you're really angry about anyone voicing some criticism because like, oh, you're making it fail.

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It's terrible. It could be so good. Everything could work out great if you all just carry it along.

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Or you have the opposite, like really people losing all the trust and then be destructive and realizing, okay, you have to like break it down.

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If you can change it, destroy it around you.

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Did you go through a process of evolution of the idea of the Citadel?

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Was it because what you've set up now is basically a network and the meme that the Bitcoin, the Citadel meme that I know at least was one place.

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I didn't know it had a kind of like a network component to it, which was it was more like batting down the hatches and live inside this.

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I like the city-states, like the old medieval city-states.

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One place with a barricade around it, and that's where everyone's going to live.

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But you're very much about a number of places which give you, I suppose, that optionality.

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Is that the point?

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Yes, but of course there's some evolution.

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But I was early in a lot of things because I'm in that tradition that I realized some of the constraints of today pretty early.

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in particular if you try to bridge practice and theory,

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what I've always tried to do.

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So I had a deep interest in many aspects,

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in the monetary aspects and the mobility of capital

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and what it means for wealth allocation

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and, of course, in the mobility of people.

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I've been involved with many things

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and seen many things come and go

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and tried to devil in a lot of those things and took my lessons from that And a few of the lessons I learned we can go through that what led me to the path

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It's nothing revolutionary.

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In the inside, it's a gradual understanding of a few things.

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And one thing is that we shouldn't wait for the perfect place

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to come around for a kind of utopia, the promised utopia.

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Politics is overrated, generally.

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Like there's always sometimes people are so fed up that it's reform or again time for reform.

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Unfortunately, the empirical record of those reforms is frustrating.

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So politics is an attention game.

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It's not evil in itself.

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This attention is very natural that we flock towards that attention.

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But generally, I would not bank on any politician and any national jurisdiction

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to be the greatest place forever.

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Of course, we vote with our feet

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by choosing relatively better jurisdictions,

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but that's never a process where we say,

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okay, now that's my utopia.

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It's always within our constraints

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and usually our family constraints,

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where you got to be

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and how can you improve that a little bit

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and how can you adapt your lifestyle

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to that a little bit.

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Of course, you have many more options

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once your salary is location independent

222
00:18:00,116 --> 00:18:03,016
or upkeep its location independent

223
00:18:03,016 --> 00:18:06,996
because that was really one of the tricks of centralization

224
00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:11,236
is when industry and finance became more state controlled

225
00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:15,216
and you have this relationship between the stationary bandits

226
00:18:15,216 --> 00:18:17,656
as economists like to call.

227
00:18:18,336 --> 00:18:21,036
The political structures and those generating wealth

228
00:18:21,036 --> 00:18:24,136
that are for protection is a protection racket

229
00:18:24,136 --> 00:18:28,296
because a lot of the early industry in particular

230
00:18:28,296 --> 00:18:32,696
needed that really stationary dependency on one location.

231
00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:35,436
That's like the good location where you have the energy,

232
00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:37,416
where you have the trade access,

233
00:18:37,816 --> 00:18:39,076
and then you want to be protected.

234
00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:40,976
And of course, you want to have to give something

235
00:18:40,976 --> 00:18:42,196
for this protection racket.

236
00:18:42,996 --> 00:18:46,216
And part of it is that every entrepreneur in the West

237
00:18:46,216 --> 00:18:48,516
is an employee of the government

238
00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:51,176
and has to keep the taxes.

239
00:18:52,496 --> 00:18:54,196
And this principle of tax farming

240
00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:56,036
has been going on for a long time.

241
00:18:56,036 --> 00:19:02,676
It was the Romans that probably not the first ones, but pretty early had it as a business, tax farming.

242
00:19:03,216 --> 00:19:04,236
And that has been going on.

243
00:19:04,336 --> 00:19:10,136
So once you can get off of the tax farming scheme, then you have more options as a person.

244
00:19:11,136 --> 00:19:16,616
And that, of course, means that either you move to a relatively better jurisdiction.

245
00:19:17,216 --> 00:19:24,876
But then if you have a strong passport that comes from like the geopolitical structure of the world,

246
00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:30,636
Europe was happy. Most of Europe is aligned with the strongest power, the US.

247
00:19:30,836 --> 00:19:34,476
So European passports and American passports give you a lot of mobility.

248
00:19:34,696 --> 00:19:38,356
There's lots of countries you can enter without becoming a citizen

249
00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:43,676
or somehow be in some contractual relationship with their governments.

250
00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:48,276
So because we are tourists, we're seen as tourists to be milked

251
00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:50,676
and lots of places need that or depend on it.

252
00:19:50,676 --> 00:19:58,396
so you can now these days have zero tax and very little regulation it's very hard to beat that

253
00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:04,316
as one location so even having like the lowest tax location i live in tog which is a tax oasis

254
00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:09,836
in switzerland tog oh in switzerland it's a place in switzerland it's a place it's a canton in

255
00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:15,676
switzerland that has the lowest taxes it's like a kind of alpine monaco it's very expensive

256
00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:17,496
while you have pretty low taxes,

257
00:20:18,016 --> 00:20:23,256
but still it does not beat me not having a residence there

258
00:20:23,256 --> 00:20:24,676
and just being there as a tourist.

259
00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:27,996
And I could still have this quality of life,

260
00:20:28,096 --> 00:20:30,396
but I can't stay there the whole year round.

261
00:20:30,496 --> 00:20:31,296
And that's the issue.

262
00:20:31,456 --> 00:20:35,756
So if I was location independent and would be able to somehow move,

263
00:20:35,976 --> 00:20:38,956
and if I was alone as a single guy, that's easy.

264
00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:42,796
I would not stay in Switzerland the whole year.

265
00:20:42,796 --> 00:20:45,776
I would love to visit and visit frequently.

266
00:20:46,136 --> 00:20:49,656
And then you have the kind of like visa run, but it's the residency run.

267
00:20:49,736 --> 00:20:53,996
Every three months you leave and then you spend time elsewhere

268
00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:55,696
where the weather is better in that season.

269
00:20:55,936 --> 00:20:57,056
And then you come back.

270
00:20:57,576 --> 00:20:58,936
That's a pretty great lifestyle.

271
00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:00,416
If you have family, that's an issue.

272
00:21:00,496 --> 00:21:01,536
I have family, I have children.

273
00:21:02,076 --> 00:21:05,956
And that was the motivation that I really need something more.

274
00:21:06,536 --> 00:21:11,536
And I don't want to wait until the end of my life,

275
00:21:11,536 --> 00:21:12,896
like liberty in our lifetime

276
00:21:12,896 --> 00:21:14,356
that's our motto

277
00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:17,216
I would love to see more places emerge

278
00:21:17,216 --> 00:21:19,576
like the Emirates

279
00:21:19,576 --> 00:21:20,436
like Singapore

280
00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:22,536
that offer the kind of network effect

281
00:21:22,536 --> 00:21:23,856
of lots of interesting people

282
00:21:23,856 --> 00:21:25,256
or Zug in Switzerland

283
00:21:25,256 --> 00:21:27,256
still a great location

284
00:21:27,256 --> 00:21:28,816
there's 2 million people

285
00:21:28,816 --> 00:21:30,216
in my area

286
00:21:30,216 --> 00:21:31,856
that I can reach

287
00:21:31,856 --> 00:21:33,276
with a relatively high quality

288
00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:35,316
very wealthy entrepreneurial people

289
00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:36,036
on average

290
00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:37,636
high trust society

291
00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:40,396
so that's good network effects

292
00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:48,156
before you go on sorry did it where you have they got autonomy then this the place you live in in

293
00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:53,056
switzerland does it have a degree of autonomy to decide that it has less tax than the neighboring

294
00:21:53,056 --> 00:21:58,556
place there's something unique about switzerland switzerland has the luck that the religions and

295
00:21:58,556 --> 00:22:07,236
the languages are not uh homogeneous it's they are intersections you have like different languages

296
00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:11,976
and different religions, and they don't overlap entirely.

297
00:22:12,116 --> 00:22:16,076
It's not like the French are Catholic, and the Germans are not.

298
00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:19,536
So you have this mix of the two main drivers of identity,

299
00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:22,356
language and religion that don't overlap.

300
00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:27,736
And so Switzerland is the last remaining piece of old Europe.

301
00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:30,936
It still has lost most of it,

302
00:22:31,256 --> 00:22:34,016
because of course Switzerland is going the same direction as every other place.

303
00:22:34,016 --> 00:22:39,716
but it was really hard to centralize really difficult to centralize and they have not

304
00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:48,436
emerged one language religion kind of identity in other places so you still have the cantonal

305
00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:55,176
autonomy it's very restricted for swiss and european standards but so much better than most

306
00:22:55,176 --> 00:22:59,116
places in europe because it's really small switzerland is a small place and within it

307
00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:03,596
it has more competition than a typical EU country compared to another EU country.

308
00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:08,196
And so it was the poorest cantons, actually, that figured out,

309
00:23:08,376 --> 00:23:10,456
okay, maybe we just lower taxes.

310
00:23:10,916 --> 00:23:14,316
Usually, like you increase taxes, you figure you make more money

311
00:23:14,316 --> 00:23:16,676
and spend more on government and get riches.

312
00:23:17,096 --> 00:23:18,276
Of course, it's the other way around.

313
00:23:18,376 --> 00:23:21,296
So by lowering taxes, they made more money and more money.

314
00:23:21,836 --> 00:23:24,756
And now the Canton of Riches, Zug, is the richest canton.

315
00:23:25,176 --> 00:23:27,996
And unfortunately, they have deadly law of autonomy

316
00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:33,576
that you have to pass on the bulk of that income to the central state in Switzerland.

317
00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,276
But still they keep some of it and they can,

318
00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:41,936
and it's one of the very few places in Europe where the population of democratic votum,

319
00:23:42,136 --> 00:23:44,996
like this majority thing, which usually doesn't make that much sense,

320
00:23:45,416 --> 00:23:46,776
would agree to have lower taxes.

321
00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:49,876
And where their politicians would propose to have lower taxes,

322
00:23:50,296 --> 00:23:53,896
just to tell you, okay, our tax income has increased again this year.

323
00:23:53,896 --> 00:24:00,656
We don't know what to spend it on anyway, because everyone is at the highest quality imaginable.

324
00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:03,276
We would have to pass it on to the central state.

325
00:24:04,236 --> 00:24:06,476
So let's just give it back to our citizens.

326
00:24:07,036 --> 00:24:08,216
And that's the amazing thing.

327
00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:14,216
Isn't it true that in Switzerland, compared to most places, you send far less back to the central government?

328
00:24:14,216 --> 00:24:25,316
I know in the UK, I think all of the tax that the councils make get sent to the central office and then they kind of have to get it back by doing what they're told, which is a terrible system.

329
00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:28,036
But in Switzerland, it's much better.

330
00:24:28,416 --> 00:24:32,956
But it's still compared to shitholes like the UK and Germany and so on.

331
00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:36,716
It's much better compared to European history and Switzerland, as it could be.

332
00:24:36,816 --> 00:24:37,316
It's terrible.

333
00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:42,856
and it's saddening a lot of Swiss people, the original Swiss people,

334
00:24:42,856 --> 00:24:46,016
in particular in these old Swiss cantons, like,

335
00:24:46,016 --> 00:24:49,956
Schweiz is next to Zug and it's like these original Swiss cantons.

336
00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:54,176
They have a very different mentality to French speaking close to the French border

337
00:24:54,176 --> 00:25:07,214
and the big cities That the big challenge in Switzerland It the big city So even Switzerland is not a perfect place Even the Canton of Zugi is not a perfect place It all trade So one of the insights was I not going to wait to have a perfect place

338
00:25:07,214 --> 00:25:16,314
And I still like to endorse and do everything I can do to use that competition of jurisdictions and help politicians.

339
00:25:16,314 --> 00:25:22,694
I've been consulting politicians who try to appeal to voters by improving their jurisdictions.

340
00:25:22,694 --> 00:25:28,294
but usually it's a very high, a low chance of success and big trade-offs.

341
00:25:28,574 --> 00:25:33,114
And the much better way is to figure out how to allow that mobility of people in capital.

342
00:25:34,034 --> 00:25:39,434
And the biggest challenge I saw is it's very hard to combine with family life

343
00:25:39,434 --> 00:25:42,474
and with building something like longer term.

344
00:25:42,994 --> 00:25:48,194
So the kind of middle class entrepreneurs, you have a lot of digital nomads.

345
00:25:48,194 --> 00:25:55,694
It's like I work with my laptop kind of thing, a lot of hustling, like something that's easily to be sold online.

346
00:25:56,434 --> 00:26:06,194
But I was more interested in like the old European family company people that have families because they are not afraid of commitments.

347
00:26:06,374 --> 00:26:08,654
They are not consumptive in the orientation.

348
00:26:08,654 --> 00:26:17,174
They are not up for the next like Instagrammable location and need to consume and go on vacation, which is a very proletarian thing.

349
00:26:17,174 --> 00:26:21,474
I think that you constantly need to go for vacation because you have your bullshit job.

350
00:26:22,434 --> 00:26:27,934
You need to get a permission to get away from for at least a week, like not think about that bullshit.

351
00:26:29,314 --> 00:26:33,934
And so I'm more and that's my approach as well.

352
00:26:34,034 --> 00:26:41,254
I'm interested in those people who still figure out the location independence is worthwhile, but want to combine it.

353
00:26:41,254 --> 00:26:48,114
So I started building explicitly smaller, decentralized locations

354
00:26:48,114 --> 00:26:50,314
that don't bank on the perfect jurisdiction,

355
00:26:50,894 --> 00:26:55,194
but bank that there are some places that depend on Thailand tourism,

356
00:26:55,674 --> 00:26:57,194
are pretty attractive locations,

357
00:26:57,514 --> 00:27:00,074
but they treat tourists much better than their own citizens,

358
00:27:00,654 --> 00:27:02,734
which is terrible, the perspective of the citizens,

359
00:27:02,894 --> 00:27:03,834
but that's the way it is.

360
00:27:04,794 --> 00:27:10,094
And so I could spend time in Europe for these days.

361
00:27:10,094 --> 00:27:15,714
I wouldn't recommend anyone to take residency in Europe or in Western Europe.

362
00:27:16,234 --> 00:27:19,874
Some Eastern European locations still have relatively okay deals.

363
00:27:20,214 --> 00:27:23,614
Switzerland is an okay deal if you have the money to afford it.

364
00:27:24,614 --> 00:27:28,034
But the typical Western European country like France and Italy,

365
00:27:28,554 --> 00:27:31,114
Italy, if you have a very, very high income,

366
00:27:31,254 --> 00:27:33,934
then it's the 200Ks and 300K flat tax.

367
00:27:34,034 --> 00:27:37,134
That's great and shows you there's some little bit of competition still available.

368
00:27:37,134 --> 00:27:40,034
Greece, but generally it's a trap.

369
00:27:40,094 --> 00:27:47,114
like it's only would tell you the one euro houses because the one the get tax farming they want to

370
00:27:47,114 --> 00:27:53,714
family settle to italy and move their wealth with them and then you're trapped because if you start

371
00:27:53,714 --> 00:28:00,094
a business in europe it's all like this capital gains thing and exit taxes on you get your first

372
00:28:00,094 --> 00:28:04,854
investor and it's a valuation suddenly of a few millions which means nothing for the entrepreneurs

373
00:28:04,854 --> 00:28:09,894
like oh finally someone believes in it as well and i get a valuation and you text on the base of that

374
00:28:09,894 --> 00:28:14,934
a bullshit made-up number and you can't leave the country anymore because you have to pay up front

375
00:28:14,934 --> 00:28:19,854
the exit tax on the kind of affiliation before we actually before we talk about what you are actually

376
00:28:19,854 --> 00:28:25,054
doing this is bringing up a question that probably i should wait till the end but i've got to ask it

377
00:28:25,054 --> 00:28:30,114
now because i just really want to know the answer but everything you're saying involves mobility

378
00:28:30,114 --> 00:28:37,574
and from what we know historically of governments in the end they constrict mobility if you think

379
00:28:37,574 --> 00:28:41,834
about it when you follow that when you follow that trajectory you mentioned exit taxes just now

380
00:28:41,834 --> 00:28:49,914
that's the that's kind of stage one you know stage five is a wall stopping you from getting out right

381
00:28:49,914 --> 00:28:55,714
do you think that do you think that's a possibility in in europe do you think do you think this kind

382
00:28:55,714 --> 00:29:00,954
of i mean when you look at the idea of say flag theory and geo arbitrage it's gaining in popularity

383
00:29:00,954 --> 00:29:06,974
there's no question about that right and the obvious answer from a state is not to become

384
00:29:06,974 --> 00:29:13,174
more competitive it's actually to stop you going and and uh you know with with the right digital

385
00:29:13,174 --> 00:29:18,474
tools that's pretty easy in this day and age certainly with a tax code it's easy but also

386
00:29:18,474 --> 00:29:24,794
in the end with literally just like a east germany west germany wall you know do you think that could

387
00:29:24,794 --> 00:29:29,994
happen in our life oh it's happening of course it's a constant struggle but i'm not that pessimistic

388
00:29:29,994 --> 00:29:36,414
uh two things i mean i've observed the space for a very long time and i always was afraid like don't

389
00:29:36,414 --> 00:29:42,374
share that with anyone because if it gets too popular like they make it impossible nothing of

390
00:29:42,374 --> 00:29:47,194
that kind really has happened like in the sense that it was directly a reaction to it being more

391
00:29:47,194 --> 00:29:53,914
popular it's just when governments have issues they will try to figure out a way to get more

392
00:29:53,914 --> 00:29:59,134
money out of you and it's happening all the time but also you see the immediate impact like the uk

393
00:29:59,134 --> 00:30:03,634
abolished the extraterritorial taxation,

394
00:30:03,934 --> 00:30:05,214
the non-DOM thing,

395
00:30:05,714 --> 00:30:11,354
and that led to a huge influx into Switzerland,

396
00:30:11,514 --> 00:30:12,814
for example, and other places from British people.

397
00:30:12,814 --> 00:30:14,614
But they're not going to change their policy on that, though.

398
00:30:15,014 --> 00:30:16,714
That's not going to affect them at all.

399
00:30:16,814 --> 00:30:18,254
I don't think they look at that and go,

400
00:30:18,374 --> 00:30:20,054
oh, dear, we've made a mistake.

401
00:30:20,154 --> 00:30:20,954
We better backtrack.

402
00:30:21,014 --> 00:30:21,914
We better do something different.

403
00:30:22,214 --> 00:30:23,354
I think they double down.

404
00:30:24,334 --> 00:30:27,174
They try and stop everyone else leaving at that point.

405
00:30:27,534 --> 00:30:28,194
That's what I'm saying.

406
00:30:28,194 --> 00:30:31,114
Is this trajectory an inevitable thing?

407
00:30:31,334 --> 00:30:37,834
Are we going to reach a point where the idea of travel in our lifetimes

408
00:30:37,834 --> 00:30:40,854
is going to be incredibly difficult or very restrictive?

409
00:30:41,454 --> 00:30:42,694
That's all possible.

410
00:30:42,974 --> 00:30:46,514
It's just new options have been emerging over the last few decades

411
00:30:46,514 --> 00:30:49,394
and turnarounds happened that were unimaginable.

412
00:30:49,774 --> 00:30:53,734
Like that Italy and Greece would call back the millionaires

413
00:30:53,734 --> 00:30:55,934
that had left the countries.

414
00:30:55,934 --> 00:31:02,634
of course after financial crisis or almost a financial crisis so the uk probably has to go

415
00:31:02,634 --> 00:31:08,174
to shit more but it's still a shithole country it's for europe it's a shithole country the uk

416
00:31:08,174 --> 00:31:14,214
and a lot of british are not all satisfied and germany is getting there and france is getting

417
00:31:14,214 --> 00:31:21,314
there uh so of course i mean france is considering exit or this nation-based taxation even uh that's

418
00:31:21,314 --> 00:31:29,314
a terrible thing that's but for to me it's like the vicious circle of a dying system and yeah it

419
00:31:29,314 --> 00:31:36,034
will hit those that were not early enough to get out of course there's a high probability that

420
00:31:36,034 --> 00:31:41,534
you'll be trapped in france or germany if you have not made the move by then or you don't have

421
00:31:41,534 --> 00:31:48,654
options and the options are there's no certainty it's just the more options you have the better

422
00:31:48,654 --> 00:31:54,114
one of it is always your own savings your own financial independence that just offers more

423
00:31:54,114 --> 00:31:58,854
possibilities because if all your livelihood depends on one thing and then it's your real

424
00:31:58,854 --> 00:32:05,814
estate maybe then you're really trapped really hard to get out at that point so of course

425
00:32:05,814 --> 00:32:11,654
everyone who observes what's happening has to plan in advance and think about the plan b

426
00:32:11,654 --> 00:32:15,054
and lots of people think about it

427
00:32:15,054 --> 00:32:19,354
and the whole world changing into a more multipolar structure.

428
00:32:19,854 --> 00:32:22,514
Now it seems entirely impossible that the French

429
00:32:22,514 --> 00:32:27,554
would be able to execute that kind of policy on the world

430
00:32:27,554 --> 00:32:29,814
like the US has been doing.

431
00:32:30,554 --> 00:32:33,334
France was a big power, but it's a ridiculous power.

432
00:32:33,334 --> 00:32:37,614
They can't even maintain the puppet regimes in Africa

433
00:32:37,614 --> 00:32:42,854
with the French military forces that they sent there

434
00:32:42,854 --> 00:32:45,714
and their made-up money that they sent there.

435
00:32:46,854 --> 00:32:50,214
So I wouldn't be too afraid of dying institutions

436
00:32:50,214 --> 00:32:53,894
unless I was dependent like a food or a serve.

437
00:32:54,474 --> 00:32:56,974
And that, unfortunately, is the reality for many Europeans.

438
00:32:56,974 --> 00:33:01,594
But, I mean, it doesn't help us to worry too much about other people.

439
00:33:02,254 --> 00:33:04,794
I don't mean it in a selfish way.

440
00:33:04,794 --> 00:33:12,794
It's like there is a lot of misery on the planet and our optimism is not sustained from

441
00:33:12,794 --> 00:33:19,034
like the majority getting something immediately and it seems to be still in the majority in

442
00:33:19,034 --> 00:33:19,954
many European places.

443
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:24,612
still think it's in their interest because they'll be beneficiaries of these whole structures.

444
00:33:25,912 --> 00:33:31,412
So we can't be endlessly compassionate about those choices.

445
00:33:31,652 --> 00:33:34,132
Every positive change happens for small minorities.

446
00:33:34,672 --> 00:33:36,452
And it goes back to the Citadel thing.

447
00:33:36,452 --> 00:33:42,192
Of course, you can blame all those people that were in time leaving and taking their options,

448
00:33:42,352 --> 00:33:44,112
and you can spend all your time complaining.

449
00:33:44,272 --> 00:33:46,892
That's just not a good way to look at life.

450
00:33:46,892 --> 00:33:54,252
of course we are all late at many things myself i've been early in a lot but then executing on

451
00:33:54,252 --> 00:34:00,192
that was always a challenge so i think for that early i was in theory i consider myself very late

452
00:34:00,192 --> 00:34:05,612
in a lot of practical things because it's this uncertainty that makes it very difficult so i

453
00:34:05,612 --> 00:34:14,132
would not judge anyone but i don't want to be like measured in this wrong principle of equality

454
00:34:14,132 --> 00:34:20,312
like everyone has to be miserably and equally miserable and if not if there's not this one

455
00:34:20,312 --> 00:34:25,672
solution you press a button everyone is happy instantly then it's unjust and it doesn't work

456
00:34:25,672 --> 00:34:31,852
no so i'm optimistic because it seems to me over the last few decades there are more options coming

457
00:34:31,852 --> 00:34:40,612
so it's there's no solution or a red pill or blue pill in the case in my case you see i i've noticed

458
00:34:40,612 --> 00:34:49,092
all the signs I've taken certain precautions but I own a large property in the UK and a family

459
00:34:49,092 --> 00:34:56,852
embedded in that place and so I've really been on a process of a kind of cope and part of that cope

460
00:34:56,852 --> 00:35:05,192
is to distance myself from being sentimental about that place and also about the house ever

461
00:35:05,192 --> 00:35:11,112
being an asset that that that was a big change for me in the last couple of years was realizing

462
00:35:11,112 --> 00:35:16,452
my house isn't an asset because it's one of those things that i've we've paid off the mortgage and

463
00:35:16,452 --> 00:35:24,272
really it's so saddening to think that actually now that might become a liability to me if they

464
00:35:24,272 --> 00:35:30,792
something like a property tax or a you know a wealth tax or any of these things and that's

465
00:35:30,792 --> 00:35:36,292
really really makes me angry when i think about it but i've made my peace with it because the

466
00:35:36,292 --> 00:35:42,072
trade-off is my children have an ancestral home that they've grown up in that they love and we

467
00:35:42,072 --> 00:35:47,192
love where we live we live in the perfect i think i live the the best version of a life i could live

468
00:35:47,192 --> 00:35:52,192
in the uk if you forget all the politics and all the other stuff and that and i'm paying for that

469
00:35:52,192 --> 00:35:58,212
now and it's not i i've let go of the fact that it might be an asset and more that it's a liability

470
00:35:58,212 --> 00:36:01,172
but it gives us a really a lot in return.

471
00:36:01,772 --> 00:36:03,032
And I suppose in the future,

472
00:36:03,312 --> 00:36:05,992
if the day comes that I ever want to leave the UK,

473
00:36:06,412 --> 00:36:08,072
almost certainly the government are going to want

474
00:36:08,072 --> 00:36:10,912
a large chunk of that if I decide to sell it

475
00:36:10,912 --> 00:36:12,872
and try and invest it in another country.

476
00:36:12,872 --> 00:36:15,332
By that stage, I think I already missed the boat.

477
00:36:15,432 --> 00:36:16,972
I mean, the fact that, I don't know,

478
00:36:17,072 --> 00:36:22,472
earlier on, one of his slides had net outflows from the UK

479
00:36:22,472 --> 00:36:26,232
and I'm assuming all that data was correct,

480
00:36:26,332 --> 00:36:27,392
but it's abysmal.

481
00:36:28,212 --> 00:36:31,812
And you know that those people are already ahead of you.

482
00:36:32,352 --> 00:36:35,072
Those are the people that I should be.

483
00:36:35,172 --> 00:36:39,352
And I look at them and I go, yeah, I'm not that mobile with capital.

484
00:36:40,012 --> 00:36:41,772
I've got a very vested interest.

485
00:36:41,772 --> 00:36:49,252
I think I plan to be, but I have to wait for my kids to reach a certain age, I think, before I do that.

486
00:36:49,372 --> 00:36:50,472
Because they're embedded.

487
00:36:51,072 --> 00:36:52,272
And it would be bad.

488
00:36:52,272 --> 00:36:58,612
It would be a mental health decision in many ways for my children to say, look, why not?

489
00:36:58,852 --> 00:37:04,772
Why don't we just sacrifice a part of our lives for this thing?

490
00:37:04,772 --> 00:37:09,152
I know I used to think that an investment in a house was great and it's good.

491
00:37:09,252 --> 00:37:12,192
And one day we can take some of that capital and do something with it.

492
00:37:12,312 --> 00:37:15,312
But actually, no, I've made my peace with it.

493
00:37:15,432 --> 00:37:17,012
And it's just a shame.

494
00:37:17,012 --> 00:37:46,012
And when you look at the people that want a cut of that money, which are a bunch of idiotic sort of semi-socialist failing business owner, politician types, it's like we're reaching that point in the curve where it's so depressing that you've got all the productive people here and all the unproductive people here in the governmental jobs.

495
00:37:46,012 --> 00:37:48,192
telling these people what to do.

496
00:37:48,312 --> 00:37:50,052
And it just doesn't work.

497
00:37:50,272 --> 00:37:52,892
And the only option I see now is go.

498
00:37:53,672 --> 00:37:55,252
Like there's no, I have no,

499
00:37:55,572 --> 00:37:57,952
I have no thoughts of changing it from the inside.

500
00:37:58,092 --> 00:38:00,352
I have no thoughts of effecting a change.

501
00:38:00,412 --> 00:38:04,432
I see no political option with voting for a party.

502
00:38:04,592 --> 00:38:05,272
None of that stuff.

503
00:38:05,412 --> 00:38:05,492
Yeah.

504
00:38:05,832 --> 00:38:06,272
None of that stuff.

505
00:38:06,272 --> 00:38:08,492
But be aware it can be overwhelming.

506
00:38:08,732 --> 00:38:09,892
And it apparently is.

507
00:38:10,292 --> 00:38:11,952
So you're coping a lot.

508
00:38:12,132 --> 00:38:13,972
I see that, but it's not black and white.

509
00:38:14,092 --> 00:38:15,152
I mean, you're not stupid.

510
00:38:15,152 --> 00:38:21,652
in choosing an ancestral place where your family's grown up has good memories uh texas is not

511
00:38:21,652 --> 00:38:27,512
everything so everyone takes these choices in life it's just i think you have made the first

512
00:38:27,512 --> 00:38:33,592
and hardest step and it's kind of realism it's like realizing okay you were fed a story that was

513
00:38:33,592 --> 00:38:40,612
wrong and you bought into it not because you're stupid or you're evil it's just it was uh it

514
00:38:40,612 --> 00:38:48,652
worked out well for a while and uh so you went along with that so let me tell you what uh i

515
00:38:48,652 --> 00:38:56,172
what my offer is and and and what's this project still a little garden and uh it's meant to be

516
00:38:56,172 --> 00:39:02,852
a gradual thing i'm not selling uh rendering base kind of utopia let's like let's move because a lot

517
00:39:02,852 --> 00:39:07,672
of that is cope and larping it's like okay yes i can imagine that place that i probably will never

518
00:39:07,672 --> 00:39:14,692
moved to but still it's like hope on the horizon from the investment perspective you realized

519
00:39:14,692 --> 00:39:22,152
already the house is not a good investment in particular house that you live in we can talk

520
00:39:22,152 --> 00:39:28,652
about investment a long time the simplest advice is stack bitcoin we can talk a lot about that

521
00:39:28,652 --> 00:39:36,092
but it's a mobile asset that's still monetizing so the biggest upside for you

522
00:39:36,092 --> 00:39:44,692
if you can like any cash flow that's available anything or if you ever managed to sell that house

523
00:39:44,692 --> 00:39:52,972
and maybe there's like a sell and rent options available and and or sell parts or sell it in

524
00:39:52,972 --> 00:39:59,492
parts or whatever you'll figure out for most it's like you have one good offer and then you take

525
00:39:59,492 --> 00:40:05,872
take it and you're happy about it but it's better to cut your losses and not retain the sunk

526
00:40:05,872 --> 00:40:14,932
losses kind of thing when you've done that and more and more of the kind of reserve assets you

527
00:40:14,932 --> 00:40:21,512
hold is in bitcoin what i didn't do i would never now at this stage sell bitcoin for real estate

528
00:40:21,512 --> 00:40:28,452
even if it wasn't a free city or potential free city real estate is just a shitty investment

529
00:40:28,452 --> 00:40:33,712
usually it may have upside but then the entrepreneurial uncertainty is so high

530
00:40:33,712 --> 00:40:41,412
the only way you make money with real estate is you get cheap fiat credit and you're not living

531
00:40:41,412 --> 00:40:48,632
in it yourself you can rent it out at high returns short-term rent something like that but it takes a

532
00:40:48,632 --> 00:40:54,312
lot of entrepreneurial engagement with that kind of asset to make it work so it's not bad in itself

533
00:40:54,312 --> 00:41:00,952
if you do it as a business just real estate is great i love it as a thing as the physical like

534
00:41:00,952 --> 00:41:11,532
amenities that we live in and what i did is i did not sell my bitcoin i put this bitcoin in a swiss

535
00:41:11,532 --> 00:41:17,812
private bank which was a trade-off i thought that's like one at least switzerland because

536
00:41:17,812 --> 00:41:22,992
it's that's wealthy has already this infrastructure of like insured custody that's not part of the

537
00:41:22,992 --> 00:41:29,672
bank balance sheet and all these specialized services that should make it as legally and

538
00:41:29,672 --> 00:41:32,052
technologically safe as possible.

539
00:41:32,052 --> 00:41:34,332
Of course, self-custody is always preferable.

540
00:41:34,332 --> 00:41:48,150
But now I can use Bitcoin as a collateral like I used my shares as collateral and everyone who wealthy to a certain degree does that It just makes sense That how fiat you need fiat money for daily life

541
00:41:48,310 --> 00:41:51,710
You don't want to sell assets necessarily for fiat money.

542
00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:52,810
That's what you do.

543
00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:55,670
So with that Lombard credit, now I have some fiat.

544
00:41:55,830 --> 00:41:58,770
I take a long Bitcoin bet and a short Euro bet.

545
00:41:58,890 --> 00:41:59,870
I only take Euro credit.

546
00:42:01,330 --> 00:42:04,210
I may be wrong, but that's my assessment of the Eurozone.

547
00:42:04,990 --> 00:42:15,230
And with that and pooling some Bitcoin, I started investing in locations that are starting with locations that are easily reachable for Europeans.

548
00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:21,090
And then gradually going out from there, just as little hops as something you could make a holiday at.

549
00:42:21,250 --> 00:42:26,470
But it's small enough to be manageable and not to be a huge risk.

550
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:30,430
But big enough to have these economies of scale.

551
00:42:30,430 --> 00:42:39,310
it's all 25 houses which means there'll be enough kids if ever it's occupied all the kids will have

552
00:42:39,310 --> 00:42:45,730
similarly aged kids and you have the economies of scale to provide a neighborhood with the services

553
00:42:45,730 --> 00:42:51,190
for like-minded people where you could stay more than two weeks and a nice family holiday

554
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:58,490
you could spend months and you could start spending months and it could be your refuge

555
00:42:58,490 --> 00:43:01,210
if something happens

556
00:43:01,210 --> 00:43:03,990
it's all tourist locations

557
00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:06,310
so it's always a good reason why you are there

558
00:43:06,310 --> 00:43:08,650
officially it's always a tourist location

559
00:43:08,650 --> 00:43:10,350
it's all

560
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:12,370
I have a Swiss holding company

561
00:43:12,370 --> 00:43:13,270
that does all that

562
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:15,710
Switzerland is one of the very few European countries

563
00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:17,970
that still has an anonymous share registry

564
00:43:17,970 --> 00:43:18,970
shareholder registry

565
00:43:18,970 --> 00:43:21,430
and then I have daughter companies

566
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:23,870
in various attractive locations

567
00:43:23,870 --> 00:43:24,890
that treat tourists well

568
00:43:24,890 --> 00:43:25,810
that are reachable

569
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:28,250
and that could be refugees

570
00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:29,970
I'm not living there now.

571
00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:34,810
It's a really difficult part of it is that's real estate.

572
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:39,330
You need to have real estate in order to shape these physical surroundings of where you want to live.

573
00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:47,390
And I finished building the first one, which was incredibly painful.

574
00:43:48,430 --> 00:43:51,810
But I think I took a few good decisions.

575
00:43:52,110 --> 00:43:56,730
And it helped that I was not selling something before I figured it out.

576
00:43:56,730 --> 00:43:59,450
and I figured it out the hard way with my money and my time

577
00:43:59,450 --> 00:44:01,590
and my frustration tolerance for bureaucrats.

578
00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:05,470
Anyone who built something in real life sees that.

579
00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:06,330
Where was it?

580
00:44:06,690 --> 00:44:08,650
The first one is in Istria.

581
00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:10,290
It's like the Croatian Tuscany.

582
00:44:11,310 --> 00:44:11,630
Croatia.

583
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:15,710
It's central, like for cultural Europeans,

584
00:44:15,930 --> 00:44:18,230
one of the central locations where we're in 30 minutes.

585
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:21,070
You have three countries with some of the richest culture

586
00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:23,470
and most beautiful places and the Mediterranean.

587
00:44:23,890 --> 00:44:24,870
Can you describe it?

588
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:27,290
How much land is it?

589
00:44:27,590 --> 00:44:29,330
How many buildings are there?

590
00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:30,530
What's there?

591
00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:35,010
Every location should have space for 25 families,

592
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:37,910
plus a few visitors, plus some shared amenities.

593
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:39,530
25 detached places?

594
00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:40,230
Houses.

595
00:44:40,450 --> 00:44:41,230
Houses, houses.

596
00:44:41,310 --> 00:44:41,850
Actually houses.

597
00:44:41,850 --> 00:44:42,710
So what does that mean?

598
00:44:43,170 --> 00:44:44,170
What's that in real terms?

599
00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:45,670
Hectares or acres or whatever?

600
00:44:46,330 --> 00:44:48,650
I mean, big gardens close together?

601
00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:49,250
It's big.

602
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:51,990
It's relatively big,

603
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:54,770
even though that's our smallest location,

604
00:44:54,870 --> 00:45:03,350
but it's still big enough that i'm not a believer in the commune i saw only the value in community

605
00:45:03,350 --> 00:45:10,390
when i had kids and that for kids the best that was during the pandemic where of course i was

606
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:17,430
scouting on where to go and then just the best of just go out to the countryside and find neighbors

607
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:23,990
with similar age kids and then have a space where they are safe to go and meet those other kids which

608
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:25,430
which was a challenge during the pandemic

609
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:26,970
because I had to convince the other parents

610
00:45:26,970 --> 00:45:31,170
that it was safe to let the kids play together.

611
00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:34,330
But that's when I realized, okay, it needs that little.

612
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:36,870
It's just, it needs some kind of safe space

613
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:38,770
that the kids can run out

614
00:45:38,770 --> 00:45:40,310
and I don't have to worry about them.

615
00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:41,230
I'm still very close.

616
00:45:41,310 --> 00:45:44,250
I can always fetch them and spend time with them,

617
00:45:44,830 --> 00:45:45,710
but they don't need me.

618
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:46,770
They can be independent.

619
00:45:46,930 --> 00:45:48,050
They can discover the world.

620
00:45:48,530 --> 00:45:50,310
And that's like, I think when you're saying

621
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:52,330
it needs a village to raise a child kind of thing.

622
00:45:52,330 --> 00:45:53,510
It needs a safe neighborhood

623
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:58,490
where you don't have to helicopter parents your kids which in many cities is the case and then

624
00:45:58,490 --> 00:46:04,010
it's screen time and like keep them trapped in their little apartments or in school where it's

625
00:46:04,010 --> 00:46:10,930
like prison-like institution and the main service is just they keep your kids safe when you think

626
00:46:10,930 --> 00:46:20,230
at least so that you can work and do your stuff so that's why the main community is about the

627
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:28,350
children so it's not detached gardens with with fences between them but it's private homes where

628
00:46:28,350 --> 00:46:34,910
you can have your privacy and it's one huge park-like garden where the kids will roam around

629
00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:43,350
where you take your hike and and walk around do you know what before you go on you i i my family

630
00:46:43,350 --> 00:46:50,010
we have a history of traveling in a motorhome in an RV.

631
00:46:50,610 --> 00:46:53,110
And what you're describing is basically campsites.

632
00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:54,850
They have the same mentality.

633
00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:57,650
This is what we've always liked about campsites

634
00:46:57,650 --> 00:47:00,430
is when you arrive at a place, you set up,

635
00:47:00,490 --> 00:47:03,250
you don't have a garden, but the kids leave the thing

636
00:47:03,250 --> 00:47:04,810
and you don't see them all day.

637
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:08,010
And the kids are having the adventures of their lifetime

638
00:47:08,010 --> 00:47:09,130
within this enclosed area.

639
00:47:09,250 --> 00:47:10,830
And it's exactly the same thing.

640
00:47:10,830 --> 00:47:16,790
it's just that you've got these stationary buildings instead you know yeah it really works

641
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:22,830
i mean it's the most perfect i think probably if you look to our historical past it's that's how we

642
00:47:22,830 --> 00:47:27,070
used to live back in the day you know a long time ago that was my main need like this community

643
00:47:27,070 --> 00:47:31,990
children need other children and they need this kind of safe space that's not overprotective

644
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:38,230
that's only the only ingredients i need and then i don't need a commune that provides everything for

645
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:44,250
me because anyone who can live that life and be location independent either has financial means

646
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:50,370
or a location independent business that means you need accessibility you need relatively okay

647
00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:55,410
infrastructure for that so that's why i look for locations that are accessible i'm not looking for

648
00:47:55,410 --> 00:48:01,210
the eco village kind of it has a lot of eco village flair because of course kids need nature

649
00:48:01,210 --> 00:48:05,970
and a safe and healthy environment and of course we'll have some agriculture and fruit trees

650
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:11,690
and have you not but it's not meant to be a self-sustaining thing because that's usually an

651
00:48:11,690 --> 00:48:17,470
error but the right concept about the self-sustaining is that there is freedom in poverty

652
00:48:17,470 --> 00:48:22,630
if you don't have anything to lose you are free in a certain sense but then i wouldn't invest in

653
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:29,010
the thing then i like offer my labor to stay as you can do with ecovillages and profit off this

654
00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:33,970
poverty and if i have something left then i'd rather keep these reserves for when i'm old and

655
00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:39,190
can't offer that much labor to be at an acre village so it's it's meant to be

656
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:42,610
for location you've been entrepreneurs that need to travel that have an

657
00:48:42,610 --> 00:48:47,110
airport within 30 minutes the second location is within 10 minutes to an

658
00:48:47,110 --> 00:48:52,230
airport but still all private you don't see the neighbors but you can walk five

659
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:57,550
minutes and find a shop and other people does it have anything except

660
00:48:57,550 --> 00:49:03,550
accommodation on within the boundary yeah yeah anything that makes sense for

661
00:49:03,550 --> 00:49:08,350
the parents and that's like what does everyone want to have kind of wellness space there's a

662
00:49:08,350 --> 00:49:14,190
indoor outdoor pool and a wellness area fitness area no nothing so because it's not it's not

663
00:49:14,190 --> 00:49:19,850
remote uh it feels remote but it's accessible it's like it's not meant to be self-sustaining

664
00:49:19,850 --> 00:49:23,770
because then i would need to build the next singapore or let's say a thousand people

665
00:49:23,770 --> 00:49:31,870
village that's above my pay grade uh a thousand people uh villages um that's like an order of a

666
00:49:31,870 --> 00:49:36,650
maybe investment it's still it's a lot of capital committed committed to actually build something

667
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:40,230
like that and not just work on the renderings and sell them and get the money flushing through

668
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:48,690
but actually get it built out there's a lot of capital invested and as i try to do it without

669
00:49:48,690 --> 00:49:54,630
selling bitcoin it's like twice the capital needed because i got a 50 ltv and because i'm conservative

670
00:49:54,630 --> 00:50:08,908
and the risk averse it even more so like three times the capital to build but i can do it in a very safe way and i don have to feel bad about offering someone that option because i not

671
00:50:08,908 --> 00:50:15,388
selling something to make a quick buck i honestly think is one of my better investments that's why i

672
00:50:15,388 --> 00:50:23,548
did it myself and i would not recommend anyone to do real estate without doing the business buy a plot

673
00:50:23,548 --> 00:50:34,108
somewhere or get credit to buy something because real estate and I saw that in

674
00:50:34,108 --> 00:50:41,708
reality now again means you have to do with fiat a lot it's like you don't

675
00:50:41,708 --> 00:50:45,928
really own it it's within the jurisdiction a lot of people and

676
00:50:45,928 --> 00:50:49,648
authorities want to tell you what to do with that real estate and lots of issues

677
00:50:49,648 --> 00:50:55,148
in which taxes and fees and utilities and notaries and lawyers,

678
00:50:55,408 --> 00:50:58,588
all these parasites flocking around that.

679
00:50:59,008 --> 00:51:00,268
And it's really painful.

680
00:51:00,728 --> 00:51:03,748
And I see a lot of the service is could it be possible

681
00:51:03,748 --> 00:51:09,848
to have this kind of ownership without handling the fiat side of real estate.

682
00:51:09,848 --> 00:51:15,188
And I think the best way is actually something that has been around for a while.

683
00:51:15,188 --> 00:51:20,888
It's what Spencer McCallum called the proprietary community.

684
00:51:22,388 --> 00:51:23,688
I never heard that before.

685
00:51:23,988 --> 00:51:24,688
Oh, okay.

686
00:51:24,748 --> 00:51:25,288
The proprietary.

687
00:51:26,388 --> 00:51:27,028
Proprietary.

688
00:51:27,448 --> 00:51:28,128
Proprietary.

689
00:51:28,228 --> 00:51:28,908
Proprietary.

690
00:51:29,208 --> 00:51:30,128
Sorry, my English.

691
00:51:30,548 --> 00:51:31,188
Proprietary.

692
00:51:31,328 --> 00:51:32,648
Proprietary community.

693
00:51:33,048 --> 00:51:33,608
Explain it.

694
00:51:33,748 --> 00:51:35,268
What is the proprietary community?

695
00:51:35,268 --> 00:51:45,168
He realized that a lot of the old settlements were like all these parceled out plots with neighbors that don't know each other.

696
00:51:45,188 --> 00:51:46,268
and have no coherent thing.

697
00:51:46,348 --> 00:51:48,568
That's why people always look for politics

698
00:51:48,568 --> 00:51:50,428
to solve the problems and the conflicts

699
00:51:50,428 --> 00:51:52,688
and the infrastructure and so on.

700
00:51:52,728 --> 00:51:54,688
Then he realized something happening in the US

701
00:51:54,688 --> 00:51:56,988
with the shopping mall and the hotel,

702
00:51:57,188 --> 00:51:58,468
the hotel industry emerging.

703
00:51:58,688 --> 00:52:01,648
He realized, he shows very well how in history,

704
00:52:01,768 --> 00:52:05,128
he figured out that actually there's so much more value

705
00:52:05,128 --> 00:52:08,528
in not like parceling out the hotel rooms,

706
00:52:09,068 --> 00:52:13,248
but providing service with that.

707
00:52:13,248 --> 00:52:15,708
and it's better to shape something.

708
00:52:15,988 --> 00:52:17,708
And then he has the example of the shopping mall.

709
00:52:18,028 --> 00:52:19,628
Of course, not an attractive thing to live,

710
00:52:19,708 --> 00:52:24,648
but just as the concept where you wet the shop owners

711
00:52:24,648 --> 00:52:26,728
and it's a clear contractual.

712
00:52:26,808 --> 00:52:28,348
He means the difference is not coercive.

713
00:52:28,428 --> 00:52:29,748
It's a contractual arrangement.

714
00:52:30,348 --> 00:52:32,268
But there's clear ownership, clear responsibility

715
00:52:32,268 --> 00:52:34,848
and good incentives that you offer something.

716
00:52:35,688 --> 00:52:39,028
And if it's good, it increases in value.

717
00:52:39,408 --> 00:52:40,888
If it's bad, it doesn't.

718
00:52:40,888 --> 00:52:47,908
and so it's more entrepreneurial in a sense you offer something but you don't have and that's

719
00:52:47,908 --> 00:52:52,888
something i realized when i talked to many families during the pandemic after like what

720
00:52:52,888 --> 00:52:58,308
should we do oh my god we have all these problems the cope like because you can you have parents

721
00:52:58,308 --> 00:53:05,468
you have children you can't now leave everything and go to latin america and be free if you are

722
00:53:05,468 --> 00:53:10,828
because if you happen in the wrong latin american country suddenly you were in the worst place

723
00:53:10,828 --> 00:53:18,268
imaginable even worse than europe so that's really hard to take that uncertainty i realized oh no it

724
00:53:18,268 --> 00:53:24,428
does not work if you have like 25 families agreeing on how to do it and build it out and everyone

725
00:53:24,428 --> 00:53:32,108
gets his plot and then they i saw that usually does not work out that's why almost all intentional

726
00:53:32,108 --> 00:53:37,308
communities fail it's not because voluntary cooperation doesn't fail it's because it doesn't

727
00:53:37,308 --> 00:53:44,108
have a contractual basis and it's better actually to not fragment the ownership of the whole because

728
00:53:44,108 --> 00:53:52,908
every plot depends in value on everything else and you can still have ownership but it's like

729
00:53:52,908 --> 00:54:00,188
financing a ship going overseas a highly uncertain thing you don't fractionalize the ship by everyone

730
00:54:00,188 --> 00:54:04,888
has a room on the ship and one part of the ship and you have to sail and i have to rudder

731
00:54:04,888 --> 00:54:13,048
kind of thing as we have shares that was a big in innovation in europe that there are other ways to

732
00:54:13,048 --> 00:54:20,828
legally have a legally certain property with better incentives like is that how the the croatia

733
00:54:20,828 --> 00:54:28,088
property works then 25 people have all owned a share in the whole place uh no uh it's even more

734
00:54:28,088 --> 00:54:36,068
than that because i think it'll be even then too risky to bet it all on croatia okay more locations

735
00:54:36,068 --> 00:54:44,788
oh so more locations me as a family if i wanted to be a part of this so is it true you've got five

736
00:54:44,788 --> 00:54:49,808
or you're planning five locations or you have five we already have four and uh we're scouting

737
00:54:49,808 --> 00:54:57,728
the fifth okay so say you've got five locations so the idea is i buy a share of five locations

738
00:54:57,728 --> 00:55:05,748
and then as a result i have the option to live in any one of them and how do you work out well

739
00:55:05,748 --> 00:55:11,628
but i don't have a house i have the option to be in the whole place you're a co-owner of everything

740
00:55:11,628 --> 00:55:17,308
which is mostly bitcoin that's why a lot of the people that go along and i've only very recently

741
00:55:17,308 --> 00:55:25,328
let in other families in the thing originally was just a private idea with a friend of mine

742
00:55:25,328 --> 00:55:27,828
to just pull our Bitcoin and do something that we need

743
00:55:27,828 --> 00:55:29,108
and then it makes sense.

744
00:55:30,388 --> 00:55:34,888
And then you usually make that Bitcoin as a capital investment.

745
00:55:35,028 --> 00:55:36,148
It goes into the collateral.

746
00:55:37,288 --> 00:55:40,828
It's an added diversification that still the Bitcoin is there.

747
00:55:40,888 --> 00:55:45,268
You have a legal owner of all the stock of Bitcoin,

748
00:55:45,848 --> 00:55:47,828
but it's not in your person anymore.

749
00:55:47,908 --> 00:55:49,548
It can't be taken from your person.

750
00:55:49,548 --> 00:55:54,028
You have shares, which are a bit better for the fiat kind of rails,

751
00:55:54,028 --> 00:55:56,728
and its anonymous shares in a Swiss company

752
00:55:56,728 --> 00:55:58,048
with good legal protection.

753
00:55:58,828 --> 00:56:00,548
So, of course, it's a trade-off.

754
00:56:00,768 --> 00:56:05,828
But with that, still, you'd prefer self-custody Bitcoin and shares.

755
00:56:05,948 --> 00:56:08,488
But with the trade-off now, you are a co-owner of a holding

756
00:56:08,488 --> 00:56:10,308
that's mainly backed by Bitcoin

757
00:56:10,308 --> 00:56:15,228
and then now owns additional daughter companies

758
00:56:15,228 --> 00:56:18,308
that own plots and own the houses and own the locations.

759
00:56:19,008 --> 00:56:22,268
And as a shareholder, you can now reserve based on your shares.

760
00:56:22,268 --> 00:56:28,608
you can freeze those shares you are not selling those shares and then you like say okay i block

761
00:56:28,608 --> 00:56:35,348
that house i want to be there and it's just like one option of course our own it is to make it as

762
00:56:35,348 --> 00:56:42,008
flexible for the shareholders so if you want to get out can the share price go up and down

763
00:56:42,008 --> 00:56:49,528
like yes it'll go it will go up yeah it could go down well whatever because it follows it will

764
00:56:49,528 --> 00:56:50,528
follow Bitcoin closely.

765
00:56:50,528 --> 00:56:51,128
Oh, okay, right.

766
00:56:51,188 --> 00:56:53,148
So the backing, the Bitcoin backing is what?

767
00:56:53,248 --> 00:56:58,428
It's a Bitcoin treasury company, which is not public and will not do the hype of the

768
00:56:58,428 --> 00:57:02,288
Bitcoin treasury companies, which has not been going that well.

769
00:57:02,468 --> 00:57:06,788
So it'll have an MNAF of close to one, usually close to one.

770
00:57:06,788 --> 00:57:13,948
But the idea is if you want to, say you want to leave the scheme and you want to sell that

771
00:57:13,948 --> 00:57:17,528
option, then the same person pays the same amount of Bitcoin.

772
00:57:18,308 --> 00:57:20,748
So the price of Bitcoin might have changed,

773
00:57:20,828 --> 00:57:22,748
but the actual amount of Bitcoin would be the same.

774
00:57:22,808 --> 00:57:23,088
Is that right?

775
00:57:23,128 --> 00:57:23,428
Yes.

776
00:57:23,528 --> 00:57:26,148
It's not as liquid as holding Bitcoin in self-custody.

777
00:57:26,288 --> 00:57:27,168
Again, that's the trade-off.

778
00:57:27,888 --> 00:57:31,448
But it's much, much more liquid than holding a share in a venture,

779
00:57:32,088 --> 00:57:35,048
which is always like you have a share based on the valuation

780
00:57:35,048 --> 00:57:37,788
of a future success of a venture usually,

781
00:57:38,328 --> 00:57:39,508
which is very liquid.

782
00:57:39,988 --> 00:57:42,308
That's why people don't look at the price every day

783
00:57:42,308 --> 00:57:45,288
if they have ventures and that's one advantage.

784
00:57:45,288 --> 00:57:51,428
or real estate which is also very illiquid it's much more liquid because it's a share

785
00:57:51,428 --> 00:57:59,128
backed by very liquid form of capital so i think the trade-off is okay and how do you work out

786
00:57:59,128 --> 00:58:06,728
who has what when and as in buildings you know like say you've got these five locations all

787
00:58:06,728 --> 00:58:13,008
around the world and i i now want to be in i don't know where panama i don't know where the

788
00:58:13,008 --> 00:58:14,628
Where are the other locations?

789
00:58:14,628 --> 00:58:25,926
I won reveal all of the locations Oh okay fair enough So how do I know that there gonna be a place for me there Do I have to book it Is there a bit of software that does all this

790
00:58:26,326 --> 00:58:27,686
Yes, yes.

791
00:58:27,966 --> 00:58:28,246
Okay.

792
00:58:28,946 --> 00:58:34,746
But it'll be a very fair and clear system

793
00:58:34,746 --> 00:58:37,126
because you are a co-owner actually.

794
00:58:38,366 --> 00:58:42,866
And then if we see there's like more need,

795
00:58:42,866 --> 00:58:45,666
because we have so many shareholders

796
00:58:45,666 --> 00:58:46,886
and so little houses,

797
00:58:47,186 --> 00:58:47,986
it would make sense

798
00:58:47,986 --> 00:58:49,666
because more shareholders means more capital,

799
00:58:50,446 --> 00:58:51,346
means more locations

800
00:58:51,346 --> 00:58:54,346
and more expansion of existing locations.

801
00:58:54,966 --> 00:58:56,786
How much of it's up and running at the moment then?

802
00:58:57,286 --> 00:58:59,106
Like how much of it can you personally use

803
00:58:59,106 --> 00:59:00,226
with your family, for example?

804
00:59:00,886 --> 00:59:03,086
Can you go to the Croatia one and live there?

805
00:59:04,166 --> 00:59:04,606
Almost.

806
00:59:05,186 --> 00:59:06,386
The building is finished.

807
00:59:06,466 --> 00:59:08,706
Now we just do the interior finishes,

808
00:59:09,826 --> 00:59:12,006
having kitchens and furniture.

809
00:59:12,006 --> 00:59:14,306
What are you going to do as an individual?

810
00:59:14,906 --> 00:59:17,226
Are you going to go and live there for six months straight away or something?

811
00:59:17,286 --> 00:59:17,686
Not yet.

812
00:59:17,926 --> 00:59:18,106
No.

813
00:59:18,106 --> 00:59:18,426
No.

814
00:59:18,626 --> 00:59:23,926
For me and the part of the shareholders, it's a pure plan B insurance kind of thing.

815
00:59:24,206 --> 00:59:24,706
Oh, really?

816
00:59:24,886 --> 00:59:25,066
Yes.

817
00:59:25,206 --> 00:59:27,026
So you'll leave them empty in case.

818
00:59:27,766 --> 00:59:29,386
No, I don't have to leave it empty.

819
00:59:30,346 --> 00:59:33,406
It's a refuge I can use as a shareholder.

820
00:59:33,426 --> 00:59:33,766
Oh, sure. Right. Okay.

821
00:59:34,526 --> 00:59:40,326
And so, yeah, part of the shareholders don't use them out.

822
00:59:40,326 --> 00:59:40,866
so it's

823
00:59:40,866 --> 00:59:42,286
I don't see

824
00:59:42,286 --> 00:59:42,566
that the

825
00:59:42,566 --> 00:59:43,346
at the current

826
00:59:43,346 --> 00:59:43,766
stage

827
00:59:43,766 --> 00:59:44,326
it's not at all

828
00:59:44,326 --> 00:59:44,746
the problem

829
00:59:44,746 --> 00:59:45,306
that we have

830
00:59:45,306 --> 00:59:45,926
like so many

831
00:59:45,926 --> 00:59:47,106
people living

832
00:59:47,106 --> 00:59:47,406
there

833
00:59:47,406 --> 00:59:48,446
it's oversubscribed

834
00:59:48,446 --> 00:59:49,006
on the living

835
00:59:49,006 --> 00:59:49,866
side

836
00:59:49,866 --> 00:59:50,966
it's because

837
00:59:50,966 --> 00:59:52,246
it's a pretty

838
00:59:52,246 --> 00:59:53,506
high level

839
00:59:53,506 --> 00:59:54,386
of initial

840
00:59:54,386 --> 00:59:54,906
investment

841
00:59:54,906 --> 00:59:56,486
which is

842
00:59:56,486 --> 00:59:57,126
about the

843
00:59:57,126 --> 00:59:57,786
price of a

844
00:59:57,786 --> 00:59:58,086
house

845
00:59:58,086 --> 00:59:59,126
but in one

846
00:59:59,126 --> 00:59:59,386
of the

847
00:59:59,386 --> 00:59:59,786
settlements

848
00:59:59,786 --> 01:00:00,226
so then

849
01:00:00,226 --> 01:00:01,026
compared to

850
01:00:01,026 --> 01:00:01,826
a UK home

851
01:00:01,826 --> 01:00:02,166
or so

852
01:00:02,166 --> 01:00:02,766
it's a relatively

853
01:00:02,766 --> 01:00:03,206
low

854
01:00:03,206 --> 01:00:05,026
amount of

855
01:00:05,026 --> 01:00:05,286
money

856
01:00:05,286 --> 01:00:06,866
of course

857
01:00:06,866 --> 01:00:07,506
we'd like

858
01:00:07,506 --> 01:00:09,746
rent out

859
01:00:09,746 --> 01:00:13,326
to compatible families,

860
01:00:13,566 --> 01:00:15,606
a part of the places that are not used

861
01:00:15,606 --> 01:00:17,706
if we don't use them ourselves.

862
01:00:18,366 --> 01:00:19,906
So there will always be a buffer

863
01:00:19,906 --> 01:00:26,566
for shareholders that actually need it

864
01:00:26,566 --> 01:00:27,526
and want to use it.

865
01:00:27,866 --> 01:00:28,806
But you don't have to.

866
01:00:29,246 --> 01:00:33,546
And for me, that makes it much easier now

867
01:00:33,546 --> 01:00:35,466
because otherwise I would have to convince

868
01:00:35,466 --> 01:00:37,346
my whole family for that one location

869
01:00:37,346 --> 01:00:42,546
and that one spot now and make all that investment up front it usually does not happen

870
01:00:42,546 --> 01:00:48,666
and then like we take a guess and then it doesn't work out and then it's all gone

871
01:00:48,666 --> 01:00:56,666
it's the kind of thing now i i think it's much better to have kind of insurance that you know

872
01:00:56,666 --> 01:01:04,446
there are locations for people who value freedom the more come in the better it scales the more

873
01:01:04,446 --> 01:01:09,806
choices we have but we already have pretty good choices whenever that becomes relevant

874
01:01:10,686 --> 01:01:16,606
and it's for some it may be relevant because they may figure out okay i live in germany i have a

875
01:01:16,606 --> 01:01:21,966
good life it's good i could move to switzerland or i could do that lifestyle and you compare and you

876
01:01:21,966 --> 01:01:26,526
figure out wow it's like from value for me personally it's much higher than being in

877
01:01:26,526 --> 01:01:33,566
switzerland now for me it could be that switzerland goes further to the worse and either i have to

878
01:01:33,566 --> 01:01:39,966
leave or want to leave or I just spend part of the year elsewhere and I just want to have

879
01:01:39,966 --> 01:01:45,366
more options that for me is freedom have as many options as possible without giving away

880
01:01:45,366 --> 01:01:51,326
the thing that mostly gives me those options and that's the upside of Bitcoin still appreciating

881
01:01:51,326 --> 01:01:58,306
so when at the moment so the plan is five locations but at the moment if you more okay if you want to

882
01:01:58,306 --> 01:02:04,306
buy in do you buy into one and then do you have to add capital at a later stage or is there

883
01:02:04,306 --> 01:02:09,726
it's it how does it work is it is that the advantage of being early i suppose right so

884
01:02:09,726 --> 01:02:16,026
that's an incentive to come in early is so as the as it progresses you end up with more properties

885
01:02:16,026 --> 01:02:21,786
at your disposal oh right that's interesting and how public's this i mean oh not at all not at all

886
01:02:21,786 --> 01:02:28,286
i mean you've got a website right yes it's like okay not at all was exaggerated so it's free city

887
01:02:28,286 --> 01:02:34,546
conference there was two other conferences that i are you looking for people to come and buy at

888
01:02:34,546 --> 01:02:42,286
places or not i'm open to people to join i think if it makes sense to them and it's really started

889
01:02:42,286 --> 01:02:50,026
from big kind of families pooling their bitcoin to do something that is of value to everyone and

890
01:02:50,026 --> 01:02:56,666
the more people join in the better economies of scale to do that it's like a family fund of people

891
01:02:56,666 --> 01:03:03,226
who have similar values but are at different stages of their life maybe so for everyone has

892
01:03:03,226 --> 01:03:08,266
a different way of looking at we have some families that are actually already living at one location

893
01:03:08,266 --> 01:03:14,266
not right there but close to it and want to move in once the house is ready a kind of thing and we

894
01:03:14,266 --> 01:03:19,066
have people think i don't think i'll ever live at one of those locations but it's good to know

895
01:03:19,066 --> 01:03:23,826
that i can go and it's going to be part of something that seems productive and seems to

896
01:03:23,826 --> 01:03:29,266
offer more options to people that don't have that wealth that I enjoy and maybe have less options

897
01:03:29,266 --> 01:03:34,886
because of course the economics of it makes a lifestyle possible to people that is reserved to

898
01:03:34,886 --> 01:03:39,746
the ultra high net worth if you have the money for a second and third home that can stay empty

899
01:03:39,746 --> 01:03:46,146
the whole year like many wealthy people do of course you probably don't need it you would need

900
01:03:46,146 --> 01:03:52,646
it if you figure out well having my own luxury condo is like having your own yacht a pain in the

901
01:03:52,646 --> 01:03:59,646
usually with the upkeep and then you don't have the right community around if you have children

902
01:03:59,646 --> 01:04:07,706
that is maybe important and all these little trade-offs and variables and I think the overall

903
01:04:07,706 --> 01:04:13,946
like risk value structure is better if you do it in that joint are you ever planning on making it

904
01:04:13,946 --> 01:04:20,946
like a normal like a normal business like a you know a public a lot like a lot of the people

905
01:04:20,946 --> 01:04:23,166
emerging in the free city space at the moment.

906
01:04:23,326 --> 01:04:27,146
They're offering freer places,

907
01:04:27,846 --> 01:04:29,526
the option to buy into a freer place

908
01:04:29,526 --> 01:04:30,966
and there's different levels of autonomy.

909
01:04:31,646 --> 01:04:33,786
Are you ever planning on running it like that?

910
01:04:34,026 --> 01:04:34,186
No.

911
01:04:34,786 --> 01:04:37,026
The trade-off is that I value privacy

912
01:04:37,026 --> 01:04:38,526
and it's important.

913
01:04:38,846 --> 01:04:40,746
And I don't think it's a good idea

914
01:04:40,746 --> 01:04:43,186
to do the political game.

915
01:04:43,746 --> 01:04:46,126
I don't want to have like a raise of flag

916
01:04:46,126 --> 01:04:48,826
before I have a reason to raise a flag.

917
01:04:48,826 --> 01:04:50,846
because I don't want to live in a country

918
01:04:50,846 --> 01:04:52,546
where the government considers me an enemy.

919
01:04:53,126 --> 01:04:55,726
It's just, I think, the risk side

920
01:04:55,726 --> 01:04:57,746
lowers the value for me a lot.

921
01:04:57,966 --> 01:04:58,826
I don't have to.

922
01:04:58,906 --> 01:04:59,966
I'm privileged, of course.

923
01:05:00,086 --> 01:05:01,006
I have a good passport

924
01:05:01,006 --> 01:05:02,966
and the wealth to be mobile

925
01:05:02,966 --> 01:05:04,066
and live at any place.

926
01:05:04,406 --> 01:05:06,186
So why would I go to a place?

927
01:05:06,606 --> 01:05:08,206
So this kind of sovereignty thing,

928
01:05:08,326 --> 01:05:08,946
I love.

929
01:05:09,326 --> 01:05:11,086
I would love to see places

930
01:05:11,086 --> 01:05:13,246
that can leverage all the network effects

931
01:05:13,246 --> 01:05:14,546
of attracting entrepreneurs

932
01:05:14,546 --> 01:05:16,426
to build businesses on location,

933
01:05:16,586 --> 01:05:17,826
industry on location.

934
01:05:17,966 --> 01:05:18,566
That's amazing.

935
01:05:18,826 --> 01:05:42,206
We are getting there in our lifetime probably, but it's a billion dollars investment, I think, and not the hundreds, millions that I think are possible to raise now for the niche that we are in and that I'd be comfortable in running that kind of risk return calculus.

936
01:05:42,206 --> 01:05:47,046
So I'd avoid any kind of public, like, oh, that's our free space.

937
01:05:48,646 --> 01:05:55,046
Because, and we saw it in the pandemic, and afterwards, don't draw too much attention to it.

938
01:05:55,466 --> 01:06:00,066
I believe in the decentralized, bottom-up way and being very pragmatic.

939
01:06:00,546 --> 01:06:05,506
Because if it's about you and your family, of course, from the real political thing, like, what would be great?

940
01:06:05,506 --> 01:06:12,346
I love people taking risks and putting up the flag and being the markers for the freedom movement.

941
01:06:12,686 --> 01:06:16,626
That's all amazing just from the very pragmatic view of a family father.

942
01:06:18,466 --> 01:06:21,906
Privacy is a crucial counterpart of liberty.

943
01:06:22,486 --> 01:06:23,186
Yeah, it's interesting.

944
01:06:23,766 --> 01:06:30,926
That idea has come onto my radar recently a lot more as a good strategy.

945
01:06:30,926 --> 01:06:32,406
You know, Jaco Mazzucco.

946
01:06:32,406 --> 01:06:39,966
I was chatting to him the other day and we were talking in depth about free cities and Bitcoin and all this kind of stuff and he said

947
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:47,704
what about just making a place and just keeping it a secret and and i and i thought yeah actually

948
01:06:47,704 --> 01:06:51,524
and by the end of the conversation i'm like yeah this is a really valid strategy and

949
01:06:51,524 --> 01:06:55,904
there are plenty of people doing it we just don't know about it there's i mean the whole free city

950
01:06:55,904 --> 01:07:01,584
spectrum of autonomy you know with intentional communities at one end you know who knows what

951
01:07:01,584 --> 01:07:07,584
else is out there if you live in the middle of idaho on a ranch uh with with your family and

952
01:07:07,584 --> 01:07:13,744
friends yeah well it's a it's a trade-off always you can't keep it entirely private if it's not only

953
01:07:13,744 --> 01:07:21,824
you yeah we don't have this kind of reclusive sworn groups of people that stay together that

954
01:07:21,824 --> 01:07:27,744
would be a religious group yes that can keep a secret like that in a community because you need

955
01:07:27,744 --> 01:07:33,904
scale you need a kind of network effect of course me and my three best buddies maybe can manage to

956
01:07:33,904 --> 01:07:40,304
keep such a secret so i knew it's a trade-off you know so i need some scale because otherwise i can

957
01:07:40,304 --> 01:07:46,384
always be on my own and have my little reclusive private uh chalet in the alps no one knows about

958
01:07:46,384 --> 01:07:51,904
and but i don't get that of attracting other people and finding other people

959
01:07:52,704 --> 01:07:57,584
it would be great if i could be entirely public because then i have much more people so it's a

960
01:07:57,584 --> 01:08:05,744
fairly small project on the people side it's a big capital investment because it needs that in

961
01:08:05,744 --> 01:08:12,384
in order to work out but that's that's why i go that way and try to find the trade-off and reach

962
01:08:12,384 --> 01:08:18,384
out to the few people i realize yeah it could be something for me and then it's at this stage where

963
01:08:18,384 --> 01:08:23,024
i just look at potential shareholders too because it needs a lot of capital up front to then have

964
01:08:23,024 --> 01:08:29,984
more options and then i hope that gradually i find out how to work out this trade-off between

965
01:08:29,984 --> 01:08:35,824
privacy and public so of course it's not entirely private someone who is like the evil could figure

966
01:08:35,824 --> 01:08:41,904
out uh where that place is can be entirely secretive about it that's always the challenge

967
01:08:42,864 --> 01:08:50,544
but i figure if i don't talk about it at all then it would only be me and my best buddies who knew

968
01:08:50,544 --> 01:08:57,264
about it I don't know whether I know you were sitting in on Tim Stern's talk his place out in

969
01:08:57,264 --> 01:09:11,346
Venezuela is it Venezuela yes yes you know the system they have there it literally interview everyone that wants to live there I mean that obviously another option but I hilarious like they really have

970
01:09:11,346 --> 01:09:16,786
literally meetings with a picture of someone what they do for a living how much their net worth is

971
01:09:16,786 --> 01:09:21,406
what they're like and they all vote yes or no and I don't like that guy that I mean that is one way

972
01:09:21,406 --> 01:09:28,466
to do it i suppose um but um you're always interesting i mean i've never heard about it

973
01:09:28,466 --> 01:09:35,426
probably i know i know people that do it completely privately but not that's very common i know a lot

974
01:09:35,426 --> 01:09:40,246
of families that do it i mean it's very common even around where i live for families to live on

975
01:09:40,246 --> 01:09:46,386
the same plot and they specifically buy plots that have buildings outbuildings that can do up and then

976
01:09:46,386 --> 01:09:51,746
you get the generational living thing which is phenomenal i i really do believe in generational

977
01:09:51,746 --> 01:09:57,546
living i think it's something that needs to come back i think it really does but i don't know of

978
01:09:57,546 --> 01:10:03,886
anyone doing what you're doing which is kind of like semi semi-private it's in many ways it's a

979
01:10:03,886 --> 01:10:09,626
compromise in between like it's a lot of trade-offs it's not entirely location independent but it's not

980
01:10:09,626 --> 01:10:15,706
entirely dependent on the location uh it's not the best solution for every family for a lot of

981
01:10:15,706 --> 01:10:22,766
family it'll be too mobile for other families it's it's too stationary because it depends on you like

982
01:10:22,766 --> 01:10:27,586
coming back to the similar places and then be with similar families and adopt yourself a little bit

983
01:10:27,586 --> 01:10:35,106
if you want that continue continuous social environment but that's that's your choice

984
01:10:35,106 --> 01:10:40,806
so but i i mean that's one of the insights on austrian economics it's all about trade-offs

985
01:10:40,806 --> 01:10:45,866
and opportunity costs and having more options rather than less options.

986
01:10:45,866 --> 01:10:50,906
So am I right in thinking that if someone listening to this

987
01:10:50,906 --> 01:10:54,566
could contact you and introduce themselves to you

988
01:10:54,566 --> 01:10:55,926
and there could be a dialogue to be had,

989
01:10:56,046 --> 01:10:58,286
they could easily be part of it.

990
01:10:58,426 --> 01:10:58,646
Yes.

991
01:10:58,926 --> 01:10:59,386
Absolutely.

992
01:10:59,786 --> 01:11:00,306
Interesting.

993
01:11:00,966 --> 01:11:01,686
Well, there you go.

994
01:11:02,526 --> 01:11:07,346
I think that's a fair place to end.

995
01:11:07,426 --> 01:11:08,746
Actually, something I just thought of.

996
01:11:08,746 --> 01:11:14,566
I interviewed someone the other day that knows you quite well Leon Vancombe do you know Leon

997
01:11:14,566 --> 01:11:33,848
right I just I noticed it in speaking to you now where you and him maybe he learned the ideas from you but he his ideas on real estate are incredibly influenced by what you saying I imagining I hope so I spoke to him for two hours and he is I mean

998
01:11:33,868 --> 01:11:39,348
he's a real estate guy as well. And he is restructuring his whole business to basically

999
01:11:39,348 --> 01:11:43,448
get out of the real estate aspect of it and into the Bitcoin aspect. And according to him,

1000
01:11:43,968 --> 01:11:49,168
he thinks the whole thing is repricing as we speak now. And I assume you do as well.

1001
01:11:49,168 --> 01:11:56,108
you know the the money is moving from real estate one of the primary sources is the money moving

1002
01:11:56,108 --> 01:12:03,308
from real estate into bitcoin wow i'm a good i mean i say that's good to hear but obviously

1003
01:12:03,308 --> 01:12:09,208
i've got a big bit of real estate that's quite a large part of my net worth unfortunately

1004
01:12:09,208 --> 01:12:15,408
um but uh hey so be it you know like that's that's the way it's going to be i'm i've got

1005
01:12:15,408 --> 01:12:21,648
i've got my plan b's i've got my plan b's anyway right and thanks that's very fascinating you know

1006
01:12:21,648 --> 01:12:26,988
i'm just going to i'm just going to clarify what it is because just based on what i've i think i've

1007
01:12:26,988 --> 01:12:37,368
just learned network of semi-private places which are plan b options for families it's very family

1008
01:12:37,368 --> 01:12:42,008
it's nothing to do because specifically because that's the limiting factor uh you don't have to

1009
01:12:42,008 --> 01:12:47,188
need to have a family but if you have a family your options are usually more restricted because

1010
01:12:47,188 --> 01:12:52,008
if you're a single guy you could like live in the middle of africa and be happy and take all the

1011
01:12:52,008 --> 01:12:59,128
risks and and be at the war line and take all the value options in the world if you have a family

1012
01:12:59,128 --> 01:13:06,068
it's it's you care about safety accessibility and this network of other families and the network

1013
01:13:06,068 --> 01:13:13,968
grows and as more and more trusted people become a part of it and then it becomes a kind of network

1014
01:13:13,968 --> 01:13:21,948
of plan b options or even just options you know and the options are very much inspired by the

1015
01:13:21,948 --> 01:13:26,528
notion that being a tourist in a country is better than being a resident of the country

1016
01:13:26,528 --> 01:13:35,108
phenomenal and it's and if people want to find out about it it's um citadel.garden right rahim

1017
01:13:35,108 --> 01:13:36,208
Thank you, Tim.

1018
01:13:36,208 --> 01:13:39,068
Fab. Really interesting. Really, really interesting.

1019
01:13:39,068 --> 01:13:41,588
I'm really happy people are doing stuff like this.

1020
01:13:41,588 --> 01:13:53,990
I noticed this year at the conference that there lots of people doing different versions of this now Because you know this whole thing when it first started it was very much about complete sovereignty

1021
01:13:54,790 --> 01:13:57,290
You know, it was all about we're going to create sovereign places

1022
01:13:57,290 --> 01:13:59,270
or we're going to get semi-sovereign places.

1023
01:13:59,550 --> 01:14:03,970
And now this other end of the market is like evolving,

1024
01:14:04,110 --> 01:14:11,230
which is more realistic in many ways, much more shorter term available.

1025
01:14:11,230 --> 01:14:16,110
you know there's none of that long-term negotiation and interestingly I had this

1026
01:14:16,110 --> 01:14:21,570
conversation with you know Liberland you know Vitt right I was talking to Vitt I've interviewed

1027
01:14:21,570 --> 01:14:27,690
him the other day at their Serbia location you know they have yes dark and I said Vitt this is

1028
01:14:27,690 --> 01:14:33,970
Liberland I said we're living he said like you've got none other problems here no one's banging on

1029
01:14:33,970 --> 01:14:38,290
the door no one's waking you up at night knocking down your structures you're all living here and

1030
01:14:38,290 --> 01:14:39,110
It's actually pretty cool.

1031
01:14:39,170 --> 01:14:41,410
And you've got a nice lake and nice little buildings and stuff.

1032
01:14:42,190 --> 01:14:42,930
And it's true.

1033
01:14:43,150 --> 01:14:43,750
And he's dead.

1034
01:14:43,910 --> 01:14:46,050
You know, look, Liberland is a lot of things.

1035
01:14:46,130 --> 01:14:46,510
Yeah, sure.

1036
01:14:46,850 --> 01:14:48,110
There's this bit of land.

1037
01:14:48,850 --> 01:14:50,670
But Liberland's an idea as well.

1038
01:14:51,010 --> 01:14:54,010
We've got a Liberland community coming up in Paraguay.

1039
01:14:54,070 --> 01:14:55,550
We've got a Liberland community here.

1040
01:14:55,670 --> 01:15:01,550
It's like the network state kind of idea of Liberland is also a very important part of it.

1041
01:15:02,170 --> 01:15:07,170
And I'm starting to see a lot of the ideas, like, mature.

1042
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:08,390
Do you know what I mean?

1043
01:15:08,610 --> 01:15:10,650
Like the Free City ideas are maturing

1044
01:15:10,650 --> 01:15:14,350
and they're all moving, I think, in the same direction.

1045
01:15:14,450 --> 01:15:17,450
It's like a spectrum of ideas all moving in the same direction.

1046
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:19,690
It's really, really inspiring.

1047
01:15:20,050 --> 01:15:23,670
And, you know, I think we're entering a new phase of all this stuff, I think.

1048
01:15:23,890 --> 01:15:24,590
It's really phenomenal.

1049
01:15:24,590 --> 01:15:27,230
And, yeah, I'm really happy that you're doing something like that

1050
01:15:27,230 --> 01:15:31,410
because it's just another arrow in the quiver, you know,

1051
01:15:31,470 --> 01:15:32,410
and it's all good.

1052
01:15:32,510 --> 01:15:32,870
It's all good.

1053
01:15:32,970 --> 01:15:34,690
But thanks for coming and telling us about it

1054
01:15:34,690 --> 01:15:36,330
and thanks for being so candid,

1055
01:15:36,330 --> 01:15:39,950
seeing as though it's kind of like a secret project.

1056
01:15:40,750 --> 01:15:41,490
It's secretive.

1057
01:15:41,690 --> 01:15:46,030
But we've got a pretty large number of listeners these days.

1058
01:15:46,370 --> 01:15:48,610
So you may get a few phone calls,

1059
01:15:48,810 --> 01:15:50,470
but hopefully it's all the good people.

1060
01:15:50,730 --> 01:15:51,930
Anyway, but thanks for coming in.

1061
01:15:52,050 --> 01:15:52,750
It's been great to see you.

1062
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:53,110
Thanks, Tim.

1063
01:16:06,330 --> 01:16:06,830
you