Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast
of the Free Cities Foundation.
Hello and welcome to this episode number 165 of the Free Cities podcast, brought to you by Veritas
Villages, our wonderful lead sponsors of this show. They're building off-grid, freedom-oriented
communities in Latin America. I'm sure you all knew that. You also know that their communities
will appeal to you if you're a freedom lover looking to live amongst like-minded individuals
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and their new place in Costa Rica
for the Bitcoiners amongst you.
You can buy your property with Bitcoin
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Everything you could ever need to know about Veritas Villages is in the show notes,
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You'll get a good sense of who they are and whether or not you would like to do business with them.
Right. New year, new plan for your self-sovereign life.
Maybe it's a Veritas village or maybe the project in today's show should be on your radar.
Rahim Tagisadegan.
It's taken me a while to be able to say Tagisadegan.
I can say it every time now.
Rahim Tagisadegan is an Austrian economist and philosopher.
Best known as the founder and director of Scalarium in Vienna.
He's a real Austrian Austrian economist.
scolariums and independent institute for advanced economic and philosophical study he works
primarily in the austrian school tradition focusing on capital theory entrepreneurship
epistemology and the limits of state intervention that was chat gpt's bio from my bio of rahim well
he's been in the free city space for a very long time since the start you could say in fact he's
the former director of the Free Cities Foundation, amongst other things.
And today he joins me to talk about his project, Citadel Garden.
Now, as you will no doubt hear if you listen on,
this project is not a very public-facing project at all.
Rahim has been kind enough to elaborate on much of the nuts and bolts of it,
but really it's a very highly vetted project.
However, if you're listening and you think you might make a good member of the project, Rahim has said that you can get in touch.
More will be apparent as you listen on.
Here is Fountain's summary using their AI.
It's a pretty good one.
And in this episode of the Free Cities podcast, Rahim Taghazadegan discusses Citadel Garden, a network of semi-private places offering plan B options for families seeking mobility and freedom inspired by Austrian economics and the Bitcoin ethos of optionality.
key topics bitcoin citadels and mobility austrian economics and exit citadel.garden and proprietary
communities and geopolitical concerns and mobility he talked about mobility twice anyway according to
me does what it says on the tin as we say in the uk he discusses the project and everything you
would probably need to know you will find in the next hour of conversation all will be revealed
right i think it's time i gave a proper good shout out to my og subscribers on value for value that's
fountain.fm in my case many thanks to justin bianchi origin drums nicholas shadrach set in stone
ant christopher albanese bullish mike matthias you are my heroes guys and you really actually
are making a difference to this show not least your subs give me a great mental boost when i
see them coming into the free cities podcast account so many many thanks to you all and
if you want to join these legends get on a value for value platform like i said earlier fountain.fm
would be the one i would choose it's my favorite and there you can subscribe for six dollars a
month for early access to every show bonus episodes and shout outs talking of shout outs
if you're a subscriber you'll get a guaranteed one i did say before christmas i would start
doing all the shout outs because my subscribers are quite quiet which is true so here we go i
forgot to do it last week let's run through the shout outs mr rabbit change is a necessity talking
about 163 yaron brooks episode about why atlas shrugged keeps happening to society p.s many
thanks uh a salute a bit of beef a mushroom and a strong arm also about yaron brooks episode
christopher albanese he's just throwing money at me no no comment at all thanks chris twice
many thanks and that on top of a very generous private donation he gave us through stripe using
fiat so thanks chris piaz again talking about vladimir leshko you will live forever if you
choose to that was a longevity episode more salutes and mushrooms and strong arms and swen
lawrences from piaz thank you demography is destiny talking about sark and uh geopolitics
justin bianchi talking about swen lawrence's sark episode i was looking forward to the update
on sark so was i it was quite a it's quite a sobering one i think that was episode 161 uh
justin again just throwing some sats our way for mark edge's episode the freedom to leave many
thanks and what do we have here finally gardus yep that just no message just to the podcast
justin again justin bianchi favorite pod of the year that was 153 with daniel prince the grand
conspiracy number two dan talking about all the latest conspiracy theories on his radar justin
again talking about the prosper episode with trey goff which is one of my favorites from last year
love the project best of luck to you guys at prosper right time for the alpha time for rahim
time to also as always sit back relax and enjoy my conversation with rahim tagizad again
We last met at BTC Prague and I got the kind of, I got the 101 on you, backstory, what you've done.
And I think at the time you were talking about Bitcoin Citadels at BTC Prague and in a way now you you well it looks like you actually kind of in the process of making Bitcoin Citadels I mean obviously what you currently doing
and this is what I'd like to start talking about, is based on everything you know and all the ideas
about having Bitcoin Citadels. Is that fair to say? I know it's not exactly a, you know,
I think a lot of Bitcoiners, when they think of a Bitcoin Citadel, they've got some kind of
vision of something out of lord of the rings with big towers and and walls around the edge and stuff
like that but what you're doing which is called wait a minute what is it called citadel.garden
that's it citadel.garden it has characteristics of all this stuff is that fair to say well it's just
a brand and citadel citadel is a meme the bitcoin citadel is a meme memes draw attention and then
Sometimes they get shifted from the original meaning to something else.
And it was meant to be a very negative meme, kind of mocking Bitcoiners.
And it was turned into something positive because the reproach against Bitcoiners was,
oh, you're just all going to get rich and then withdraw from society.
And that's so evil and selfish.
But if you see that mobility of like not endlessly complaining,
but doing something differently and bearing all this uncertainty,
then of course you can take it as something positively.
Of course, with Bitcoin as a kind of exit from the fiat system
and exit usually is much more powerful than voice,
than just complaining what most people think politics is all about.
The funny thing is though, I never used to think that the Citadel,
as in the Bitcoin Citadel meme, was negative.
because, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong,
it came from an old Reddit.
Was it the Reddit time traveler?
Yeah, right.
Okay.
So it was a guy who said he was a time traveler
from the future.
And he said, don't buy it.
We've got to stop Bitcoin
because what happens in the future
is all the Bitcoiners get so unbelievably wealthy.
Yeah, like 100K,
like unimaginable number at the time.
Did he say that?
Yeah.
Did he say 100K?
Well, he could have done some sums
and worked out that that wasn't probably enough.
But it was like at one.
And then, of course, it'll be more and more like millions.
Yeah, but he must have realized that it would be divided amongst many more people by that point.
But yeah, his idea was that society became two-tiered and the super wealthy were the Bitcoiners.
And they kind of blocked themselves away in Citadels and everyone lived without Bitcoin.
Is that right?
Now, I didn't necessarily think that was...
I thought it was probably quite true, actually, because I thought not in the sense that it was Bitcoiners necessarily, but in the sense that it was happening amongst people.
you know it didn't need to be a bitcoin or it just needed to be pure people who understood the fiat
system and consequently the bitcoin standard and against people that what you would call a normie
that didn't understand any of this stuff and therefore missed this kind of transitional
opportunity that appears to be presenting itself so i didn't necessarily think it was negative but
but you you think you think the majority of people saw that as a negative oh it was meant to be
negative really yeah do you ever know who it was then like who was the who was the guy that
really no i mean there was a name attached to the italian one i don't even remember right but it was
it was but was it someone trying to was it like someone shit posting or was it someone actually
trying to to to to sort of you know create that's a good question no i i thought it was a thoughtful
posting and it had some truth in it and it was seen as a challenge by bitcoiners yes this issue
of being perceived because still to this day there's this meme of saying have fun staying poor
if to the normies who don't get it and of course there's a risk but then it's really hard to
understand that the world is shaped like it is and will have with or without bitcoin there'll be a
many tired society and there'll be those who have an exit and those who don't those who have options
and those who don't have options bitcoin just offers more options and not exclusively to the
super wealthy because you could be early in beer and you're still early in bitcoin you don't have
to be super wealthy to get into bitcoin you have to be super wealthy to get into the hottest we see
deals these days that bring you like the unicorn multiples but with bitcoin you can have those
unicorn multiples without being super rich what do you think about the meme now you yourself
personally do you think it's is that a negative no no now it's uh predominantly positive so a lot
A lot of Bitcoin is referred to it.
And of course, Bitcoin has become a much more broadly perceived phenomenon
and has reached more corners of society.
And it's not this like, oh, I have never seen a Bitcoin.
And if I met one, he was this really strange guy.
It's in particular, I live in Switzerland and there's something very common.
You have like Bitcoin on the back of the public buses
because the banks are reversing it already.
So it's not these exclusive elites somewhere hiding in a citadel.
So the citadel theory, would you say it began with Bitcoin, but now it's just living?
Oh, no, no.
The theory behind this is much earlier and it's inspired by the Austrian School of Economics
and that realism that realized pretty early on that you should not bank yourself on the
institutions in a society that is in a civilizational crisis.
and really the biggest hope for liberty is mobility of people and mobility of capital.
And just Bitcoin emerged in the side of mobility of capital thing.
And once you have mobile capital, probably you realize that you can be more mobile
and you have more options for mobility as a person.
And it's still true to these days and has been truer and truer.
And it's also behind the free cities scene mainly.
More and more people realizing that there are actually options.
because with the rise of the centralized nation states,
mode of living has become very common.
It does seem like there is no alternative.
Like you have your credit rate to pay back
because you have to afford the house that you live in
because the job is nearby and the job pays for the credit
that you have to pay back.
So you're in this kind of loop and you're very dependent
and you get very anxious if you have doubts
about the institutional structure around you.
And then either you're really angry about anyone voicing some criticism because like, oh, you're making it fail.
It's terrible. It could be so good. Everything could work out great if you all just carry it along.
Or you have the opposite, like really people losing all the trust and then be destructive and realizing, okay, you have to like break it down.
If you can change it, destroy it around you.
Did you go through a process of evolution of the idea of the Citadel?
Was it because what you've set up now is basically a network and the meme that the Bitcoin, the Citadel meme that I know at least was one place.
I didn't know it had a kind of like a network component to it, which was it was more like batting down the hatches and live inside this.
I like the city-states, like the old medieval city-states.
One place with a barricade around it, and that's where everyone's going to live.
But you're very much about a number of places which give you, I suppose, that optionality.
Is that the point?
Yes, but of course there's some evolution.
But I was early in a lot of things because I'm in that tradition that I realized some of the constraints of today pretty early.
in particular if you try to bridge practice and theory,
what I've always tried to do.
So I had a deep interest in many aspects,
in the monetary aspects and the mobility of capital
and what it means for wealth allocation
and, of course, in the mobility of people.
I've been involved with many things
and seen many things come and go
and tried to devil in a lot of those things and took my lessons from that And a few of the lessons I learned we can go through that what led me to the path
It's nothing revolutionary.
In the inside, it's a gradual understanding of a few things.
And one thing is that we shouldn't wait for the perfect place
to come around for a kind of utopia, the promised utopia.
Politics is overrated, generally.
Like there's always sometimes people are so fed up that it's reform or again time for reform.
Unfortunately, the empirical record of those reforms is frustrating.
So politics is an attention game.
It's not evil in itself.
This attention is very natural that we flock towards that attention.
But generally, I would not bank on any politician and any national jurisdiction
to be the greatest place forever.
Of course, we vote with our feet
by choosing relatively better jurisdictions,
but that's never a process where we say,
okay, now that's my utopia.
It's always within our constraints
and usually our family constraints,
where you got to be
and how can you improve that a little bit
and how can you adapt your lifestyle
to that a little bit.
Of course, you have many more options
once your salary is location independent
or upkeep its location independent
because that was really one of the tricks of centralization
is when industry and finance became more state controlled
and you have this relationship between the stationary bandits
as economists like to call.
The political structures and those generating wealth
that are for protection is a protection racket
because a lot of the early industry in particular
needed that really stationary dependency on one location.
That's like the good location where you have the energy,
where you have the trade access,
and then you want to be protected.
And of course, you want to have to give something
for this protection racket.
And part of it is that every entrepreneur in the West
is an employee of the government
and has to keep the taxes.
And this principle of tax farming
has been going on for a long time.
It was the Romans that probably not the first ones, but pretty early had it as a business, tax farming.
And that has been going on.
So once you can get off of the tax farming scheme, then you have more options as a person.
And that, of course, means that either you move to a relatively better jurisdiction.
But then if you have a strong passport that comes from like the geopolitical structure of the world,
Europe was happy. Most of Europe is aligned with the strongest power, the US.
So European passports and American passports give you a lot of mobility.
There's lots of countries you can enter without becoming a citizen
or somehow be in some contractual relationship with their governments.
So because we are tourists, we're seen as tourists to be milked
and lots of places need that or depend on it.
so you can now these days have zero tax and very little regulation it's very hard to beat that
as one location so even having like the lowest tax location i live in tog which is a tax oasis
in switzerland tog oh in switzerland it's a place in switzerland it's a place it's a canton in
switzerland that has the lowest taxes it's like a kind of alpine monaco it's very expensive
while you have pretty low taxes,
but still it does not beat me not having a residence there
and just being there as a tourist.
And I could still have this quality of life,
but I can't stay there the whole year round.
And that's the issue.
So if I was location independent and would be able to somehow move,
and if I was alone as a single guy, that's easy.
I would not stay in Switzerland the whole year.
I would love to visit and visit frequently.
And then you have the kind of like visa run, but it's the residency run.
Every three months you leave and then you spend time elsewhere
where the weather is better in that season.
And then you come back.
That's a pretty great lifestyle.
If you have family, that's an issue.
I have family, I have children.
And that was the motivation that I really need something more.
And I don't want to wait until the end of my life,
like liberty in our lifetime
that's our motto
I would love to see more places emerge
like the Emirates
like Singapore
that offer the kind of network effect
of lots of interesting people
or Zug in Switzerland
still a great location
there's 2 million people
in my area
that I can reach
with a relatively high quality
very wealthy entrepreneurial people
on average
high trust society
so that's good network effects
before you go on sorry did it where you have they got autonomy then this the place you live in in
switzerland does it have a degree of autonomy to decide that it has less tax than the neighboring
place there's something unique about switzerland switzerland has the luck that the religions and
the languages are not uh homogeneous it's they are intersections you have like different languages
and different religions, and they don't overlap entirely.
It's not like the French are Catholic, and the Germans are not.
So you have this mix of the two main drivers of identity,
language and religion that don't overlap.
And so Switzerland is the last remaining piece of old Europe.
It still has lost most of it,
because of course Switzerland is going the same direction as every other place.
but it was really hard to centralize really difficult to centralize and they have not
emerged one language religion kind of identity in other places so you still have the cantonal
autonomy it's very restricted for swiss and european standards but so much better than most
places in europe because it's really small switzerland is a small place and within it
it has more competition than a typical EU country compared to another EU country.
And so it was the poorest cantons, actually, that figured out,
okay, maybe we just lower taxes.
Usually, like you increase taxes, you figure you make more money
and spend more on government and get riches.
Of course, it's the other way around.
So by lowering taxes, they made more money and more money.
And now the Canton of Riches, Zug, is the richest canton.
And unfortunately, they have deadly law of autonomy
that you have to pass on the bulk of that income to the central state in Switzerland.
But still they keep some of it and they can,
and it's one of the very few places in Europe where the population of democratic votum,
like this majority thing, which usually doesn't make that much sense,
would agree to have lower taxes.
And where their politicians would propose to have lower taxes,
just to tell you, okay, our tax income has increased again this year.
We don't know what to spend it on anyway, because everyone is at the highest quality imaginable.
We would have to pass it on to the central state.
So let's just give it back to our citizens.
And that's the amazing thing.
Isn't it true that in Switzerland, compared to most places, you send far less back to the central government?
I know in the UK, I think all of the tax that the councils make get sent to the central office and then they kind of have to get it back by doing what they're told, which is a terrible system.
But in Switzerland, it's much better.
But it's still compared to shitholes like the UK and Germany and so on.
It's much better compared to European history and Switzerland, as it could be.
It's terrible.
and it's saddening a lot of Swiss people, the original Swiss people,
in particular in these old Swiss cantons, like,
Schweiz is next to Zug and it's like these original Swiss cantons.
They have a very different mentality to French speaking close to the French border
and the big cities That the big challenge in Switzerland It the big city So even Switzerland is not a perfect place Even the Canton of Zugi is not a perfect place It all trade So one of the insights was I not going to wait to have a perfect place
And I still like to endorse and do everything I can do to use that competition of jurisdictions and help politicians.
I've been consulting politicians who try to appeal to voters by improving their jurisdictions.
but usually it's a very high, a low chance of success and big trade-offs.
And the much better way is to figure out how to allow that mobility of people in capital.
And the biggest challenge I saw is it's very hard to combine with family life
and with building something like longer term.
So the kind of middle class entrepreneurs, you have a lot of digital nomads.
It's like I work with my laptop kind of thing, a lot of hustling, like something that's easily to be sold online.
But I was more interested in like the old European family company people that have families because they are not afraid of commitments.
They are not consumptive in the orientation.
They are not up for the next like Instagrammable location and need to consume and go on vacation, which is a very proletarian thing.
I think that you constantly need to go for vacation because you have your bullshit job.
You need to get a permission to get away from for at least a week, like not think about that bullshit.
And so I'm more and that's my approach as well.
I'm interested in those people who still figure out the location independence is worthwhile, but want to combine it.
So I started building explicitly smaller, decentralized locations
that don't bank on the perfect jurisdiction,
but bank that there are some places that depend on Thailand tourism,
are pretty attractive locations,
but they treat tourists much better than their own citizens,
which is terrible, the perspective of the citizens,
but that's the way it is.
And so I could spend time in Europe for these days.
I wouldn't recommend anyone to take residency in Europe or in Western Europe.
Some Eastern European locations still have relatively okay deals.
Switzerland is an okay deal if you have the money to afford it.
But the typical Western European country like France and Italy,
Italy, if you have a very, very high income,
then it's the 200Ks and 300K flat tax.
That's great and shows you there's some little bit of competition still available.
Greece, but generally it's a trap.
like it's only would tell you the one euro houses because the one the get tax farming they want to
family settle to italy and move their wealth with them and then you're trapped because if you start
a business in europe it's all like this capital gains thing and exit taxes on you get your first
investor and it's a valuation suddenly of a few millions which means nothing for the entrepreneurs
like oh finally someone believes in it as well and i get a valuation and you text on the base of that
a bullshit made-up number and you can't leave the country anymore because you have to pay up front
the exit tax on the kind of affiliation before we actually before we talk about what you are actually
doing this is bringing up a question that probably i should wait till the end but i've got to ask it
now because i just really want to know the answer but everything you're saying involves mobility
and from what we know historically of governments in the end they constrict mobility if you think
about it when you follow that when you follow that trajectory you mentioned exit taxes just now
that's the that's kind of stage one you know stage five is a wall stopping you from getting out right
do you think that do you think that's a possibility in in europe do you think do you think this kind
of i mean when you look at the idea of say flag theory and geo arbitrage it's gaining in popularity
there's no question about that right and the obvious answer from a state is not to become
more competitive it's actually to stop you going and and uh you know with with the right digital
tools that's pretty easy in this day and age certainly with a tax code it's easy but also
in the end with literally just like a east germany west germany wall you know do you think that could
happen in our life oh it's happening of course it's a constant struggle but i'm not that pessimistic
uh two things i mean i've observed the space for a very long time and i always was afraid like don't
share that with anyone because if it gets too popular like they make it impossible nothing of
that kind really has happened like in the sense that it was directly a reaction to it being more
popular it's just when governments have issues they will try to figure out a way to get more
money out of you and it's happening all the time but also you see the immediate impact like the uk
abolished the extraterritorial taxation,
the non-DOM thing,
and that led to a huge influx into Switzerland,
for example, and other places from British people.
But they're not going to change their policy on that, though.
That's not going to affect them at all.
I don't think they look at that and go,
oh, dear, we've made a mistake.
We better backtrack.
We better do something different.
I think they double down.
They try and stop everyone else leaving at that point.
That's what I'm saying.
Is this trajectory an inevitable thing?
Are we going to reach a point where the idea of travel in our lifetimes
is going to be incredibly difficult or very restrictive?
That's all possible.
It's just new options have been emerging over the last few decades
and turnarounds happened that were unimaginable.
Like that Italy and Greece would call back the millionaires
that had left the countries.
of course after financial crisis or almost a financial crisis so the uk probably has to go
to shit more but it's still a shithole country it's for europe it's a shithole country the uk
and a lot of british are not all satisfied and germany is getting there and france is getting
there uh so of course i mean france is considering exit or this nation-based taxation even uh that's
a terrible thing that's but for to me it's like the vicious circle of a dying system and yeah it
will hit those that were not early enough to get out of course there's a high probability that
you'll be trapped in france or germany if you have not made the move by then or you don't have
options and the options are there's no certainty it's just the more options you have the better
one of it is always your own savings your own financial independence that just offers more
possibilities because if all your livelihood depends on one thing and then it's your real
estate maybe then you're really trapped really hard to get out at that point so of course
everyone who observes what's happening has to plan in advance and think about the plan b
and lots of people think about it
and the whole world changing into a more multipolar structure.
Now it seems entirely impossible that the French
would be able to execute that kind of policy on the world
like the US has been doing.
France was a big power, but it's a ridiculous power.
They can't even maintain the puppet regimes in Africa
with the French military forces that they sent there
and their made-up money that they sent there.
So I wouldn't be too afraid of dying institutions
unless I was dependent like a food or a serve.
And that, unfortunately, is the reality for many Europeans.
But, I mean, it doesn't help us to worry too much about other people.
I don't mean it in a selfish way.
It's like there is a lot of misery on the planet and our optimism is not sustained from
like the majority getting something immediately and it seems to be still in the majority in
many European places.
still think it's in their interest because they'll be beneficiaries of these whole structures.
So we can't be endlessly compassionate about those choices.
Every positive change happens for small minorities.
And it goes back to the Citadel thing.
Of course, you can blame all those people that were in time leaving and taking their options,
and you can spend all your time complaining.
That's just not a good way to look at life.
of course we are all late at many things myself i've been early in a lot but then executing on
that was always a challenge so i think for that early i was in theory i consider myself very late
in a lot of practical things because it's this uncertainty that makes it very difficult so i
would not judge anyone but i don't want to be like measured in this wrong principle of equality
like everyone has to be miserably and equally miserable and if not if there's not this one
solution you press a button everyone is happy instantly then it's unjust and it doesn't work
no so i'm optimistic because it seems to me over the last few decades there are more options coming
so it's there's no solution or a red pill or blue pill in the case in my case you see i i've noticed
all the signs I've taken certain precautions but I own a large property in the UK and a family
embedded in that place and so I've really been on a process of a kind of cope and part of that cope
is to distance myself from being sentimental about that place and also about the house ever
being an asset that that that was a big change for me in the last couple of years was realizing
my house isn't an asset because it's one of those things that i've we've paid off the mortgage and
really it's so saddening to think that actually now that might become a liability to me if they
something like a property tax or a you know a wealth tax or any of these things and that's
really really makes me angry when i think about it but i've made my peace with it because the
trade-off is my children have an ancestral home that they've grown up in that they love and we
love where we live we live in the perfect i think i live the the best version of a life i could live
in the uk if you forget all the politics and all the other stuff and that and i'm paying for that
now and it's not i i've let go of the fact that it might be an asset and more that it's a liability
but it gives us a really a lot in return.
And I suppose in the future,
if the day comes that I ever want to leave the UK,
almost certainly the government are going to want
a large chunk of that if I decide to sell it
and try and invest it in another country.
By that stage, I think I already missed the boat.
I mean, the fact that, I don't know,
earlier on, one of his slides had net outflows from the UK
and I'm assuming all that data was correct,
but it's abysmal.
And you know that those people are already ahead of you.
Those are the people that I should be.
And I look at them and I go, yeah, I'm not that mobile with capital.
I've got a very vested interest.
I think I plan to be, but I have to wait for my kids to reach a certain age, I think, before I do that.
Because they're embedded.
And it would be bad.
It would be a mental health decision in many ways for my children to say, look, why not?
Why don't we just sacrifice a part of our lives for this thing?
I know I used to think that an investment in a house was great and it's good.
And one day we can take some of that capital and do something with it.
But actually, no, I've made my peace with it.
And it's just a shame.
And when you look at the people that want a cut of that money, which are a bunch of idiotic sort of semi-socialist failing business owner, politician types, it's like we're reaching that point in the curve where it's so depressing that you've got all the productive people here and all the unproductive people here in the governmental jobs.
telling these people what to do.
And it just doesn't work.
And the only option I see now is go.
Like there's no, I have no,
I have no thoughts of changing it from the inside.
I have no thoughts of effecting a change.
I see no political option with voting for a party.
None of that stuff.
Yeah.
None of that stuff.
But be aware it can be overwhelming.
And it apparently is.
So you're coping a lot.
I see that, but it's not black and white.
I mean, you're not stupid.
in choosing an ancestral place where your family's grown up has good memories uh texas is not
everything so everyone takes these choices in life it's just i think you have made the first
and hardest step and it's kind of realism it's like realizing okay you were fed a story that was
wrong and you bought into it not because you're stupid or you're evil it's just it was uh it
worked out well for a while and uh so you went along with that so let me tell you what uh i
what my offer is and and and what's this project still a little garden and uh it's meant to be
a gradual thing i'm not selling uh rendering base kind of utopia let's like let's move because a lot
of that is cope and larping it's like okay yes i can imagine that place that i probably will never
moved to but still it's like hope on the horizon from the investment perspective you realized
already the house is not a good investment in particular house that you live in we can talk
about investment a long time the simplest advice is stack bitcoin we can talk a lot about that
but it's a mobile asset that's still monetizing so the biggest upside for you
if you can like any cash flow that's available anything or if you ever managed to sell that house
and maybe there's like a sell and rent options available and and or sell parts or sell it in
parts or whatever you'll figure out for most it's like you have one good offer and then you take
take it and you're happy about it but it's better to cut your losses and not retain the sunk
losses kind of thing when you've done that and more and more of the kind of reserve assets you
hold is in bitcoin what i didn't do i would never now at this stage sell bitcoin for real estate
even if it wasn't a free city or potential free city real estate is just a shitty investment
usually it may have upside but then the entrepreneurial uncertainty is so high
the only way you make money with real estate is you get cheap fiat credit and you're not living
in it yourself you can rent it out at high returns short-term rent something like that but it takes a
lot of entrepreneurial engagement with that kind of asset to make it work so it's not bad in itself
if you do it as a business just real estate is great i love it as a thing as the physical like
amenities that we live in and what i did is i did not sell my bitcoin i put this bitcoin in a swiss
private bank which was a trade-off i thought that's like one at least switzerland because
it's that's wealthy has already this infrastructure of like insured custody that's not part of the
bank balance sheet and all these specialized services that should make it as legally and
technologically safe as possible.
Of course, self-custody is always preferable.
But now I can use Bitcoin as a collateral like I used my shares as collateral and everyone who wealthy to a certain degree does that It just makes sense That how fiat you need fiat money for daily life
You don't want to sell assets necessarily for fiat money.
That's what you do.
So with that Lombard credit, now I have some fiat.
I take a long Bitcoin bet and a short Euro bet.
I only take Euro credit.
I may be wrong, but that's my assessment of the Eurozone.
And with that and pooling some Bitcoin, I started investing in locations that are starting with locations that are easily reachable for Europeans.
And then gradually going out from there, just as little hops as something you could make a holiday at.
But it's small enough to be manageable and not to be a huge risk.
But big enough to have these economies of scale.
it's all 25 houses which means there'll be enough kids if ever it's occupied all the kids will have
similarly aged kids and you have the economies of scale to provide a neighborhood with the services
for like-minded people where you could stay more than two weeks and a nice family holiday
you could spend months and you could start spending months and it could be your refuge
if something happens
it's all tourist locations
so it's always a good reason why you are there
officially it's always a tourist location
it's all
I have a Swiss holding company
that does all that
Switzerland is one of the very few European countries
that still has an anonymous share registry
shareholder registry
and then I have daughter companies
in various attractive locations
that treat tourists well
that are reachable
and that could be refugees
I'm not living there now.
It's a really difficult part of it is that's real estate.
You need to have real estate in order to shape these physical surroundings of where you want to live.
And I finished building the first one, which was incredibly painful.
But I think I took a few good decisions.
And it helped that I was not selling something before I figured it out.
and I figured it out the hard way with my money and my time
and my frustration tolerance for bureaucrats.
Anyone who built something in real life sees that.
Where was it?
The first one is in Istria.
It's like the Croatian Tuscany.
Croatia.
It's central, like for cultural Europeans,
one of the central locations where we're in 30 minutes.
You have three countries with some of the richest culture
and most beautiful places and the Mediterranean.
Can you describe it?
How much land is it?
How many buildings are there?
What's there?
Every location should have space for 25 families,
plus a few visitors, plus some shared amenities.
25 detached places?
Houses.
Houses, houses.
Actually houses.
So what does that mean?
What's that in real terms?
Hectares or acres or whatever?
I mean, big gardens close together?
It's big.
It's relatively big,
even though that's our smallest location,
but it's still big enough that i'm not a believer in the commune i saw only the value in community
when i had kids and that for kids the best that was during the pandemic where of course i was
scouting on where to go and then just the best of just go out to the countryside and find neighbors
with similar age kids and then have a space where they are safe to go and meet those other kids which
which was a challenge during the pandemic
because I had to convince the other parents
that it was safe to let the kids play together.
But that's when I realized, okay, it needs that little.
It's just, it needs some kind of safe space
that the kids can run out
and I don't have to worry about them.
I'm still very close.
I can always fetch them and spend time with them,
but they don't need me.
They can be independent.
They can discover the world.
And that's like, I think when you're saying
it needs a village to raise a child kind of thing.
It needs a safe neighborhood
where you don't have to helicopter parents your kids which in many cities is the case and then
it's screen time and like keep them trapped in their little apartments or in school where it's
like prison-like institution and the main service is just they keep your kids safe when you think
at least so that you can work and do your stuff so that's why the main community is about the
children so it's not detached gardens with with fences between them but it's private homes where
you can have your privacy and it's one huge park-like garden where the kids will roam around
where you take your hike and and walk around do you know what before you go on you i i my family
we have a history of traveling in a motorhome in an RV.
And what you're describing is basically campsites.
They have the same mentality.
This is what we've always liked about campsites
is when you arrive at a place, you set up,
you don't have a garden, but the kids leave the thing
and you don't see them all day.
And the kids are having the adventures of their lifetime
within this enclosed area.
And it's exactly the same thing.
it's just that you've got these stationary buildings instead you know yeah it really works
i mean it's the most perfect i think probably if you look to our historical past it's that's how we
used to live back in the day you know a long time ago that was my main need like this community
children need other children and they need this kind of safe space that's not overprotective
that's only the only ingredients i need and then i don't need a commune that provides everything for
me because anyone who can live that life and be location independent either has financial means
or a location independent business that means you need accessibility you need relatively okay
infrastructure for that so that's why i look for locations that are accessible i'm not looking for
the eco village kind of it has a lot of eco village flair because of course kids need nature
and a safe and healthy environment and of course we'll have some agriculture and fruit trees
and have you not but it's not meant to be a self-sustaining thing because that's usually an
error but the right concept about the self-sustaining is that there is freedom in poverty
if you don't have anything to lose you are free in a certain sense but then i wouldn't invest in
the thing then i like offer my labor to stay as you can do with ecovillages and profit off this
poverty and if i have something left then i'd rather keep these reserves for when i'm old and
can't offer that much labor to be at an acre village so it's it's meant to be
for location you've been entrepreneurs that need to travel that have an
airport within 30 minutes the second location is within 10 minutes to an
airport but still all private you don't see the neighbors but you can walk five
minutes and find a shop and other people does it have anything except
accommodation on within the boundary yeah yeah anything that makes sense for
the parents and that's like what does everyone want to have kind of wellness space there's a
indoor outdoor pool and a wellness area fitness area no nothing so because it's not it's not
remote uh it feels remote but it's accessible it's like it's not meant to be self-sustaining
because then i would need to build the next singapore or let's say a thousand people
village that's above my pay grade uh a thousand people uh villages um that's like an order of a
maybe investment it's still it's a lot of capital committed committed to actually build something
like that and not just work on the renderings and sell them and get the money flushing through
but actually get it built out there's a lot of capital invested and as i try to do it without
selling bitcoin it's like twice the capital needed because i got a 50 ltv and because i'm conservative
and the risk averse it even more so like three times the capital to build but i can do it in a very safe way and i don have to feel bad about offering someone that option because i not
selling something to make a quick buck i honestly think is one of my better investments that's why i
did it myself and i would not recommend anyone to do real estate without doing the business buy a plot
somewhere or get credit to buy something because real estate and I saw that in
reality now again means you have to do with fiat a lot it's like you don't
really own it it's within the jurisdiction a lot of people and
authorities want to tell you what to do with that real estate and lots of issues
in which taxes and fees and utilities and notaries and lawyers,
all these parasites flocking around that.
And it's really painful.
And I see a lot of the service is could it be possible
to have this kind of ownership without handling the fiat side of real estate.
And I think the best way is actually something that has been around for a while.
It's what Spencer McCallum called the proprietary community.
I never heard that before.
Oh, okay.
The proprietary.
Proprietary.
Sorry, my English.
Proprietary.
Proprietary community.
Explain it.
What is the proprietary community?
He realized that a lot of the old settlements were like all these parceled out plots with neighbors that don't know each other.
and have no coherent thing.
That's why people always look for politics
to solve the problems and the conflicts
and the infrastructure and so on.
Then he realized something happening in the US
with the shopping mall and the hotel,
the hotel industry emerging.
He realized, he shows very well how in history,
he figured out that actually there's so much more value
in not like parceling out the hotel rooms,
but providing service with that.
and it's better to shape something.
And then he has the example of the shopping mall.
Of course, not an attractive thing to live,
but just as the concept where you wet the shop owners
and it's a clear contractual.
He means the difference is not coercive.
It's a contractual arrangement.
But there's clear ownership, clear responsibility
and good incentives that you offer something.
And if it's good, it increases in value.
If it's bad, it doesn't.
and so it's more entrepreneurial in a sense you offer something but you don't have and that's
something i realized when i talked to many families during the pandemic after like what
should we do oh my god we have all these problems the cope like because you can you have parents
you have children you can't now leave everything and go to latin america and be free if you are
because if you happen in the wrong latin american country suddenly you were in the worst place
imaginable even worse than europe so that's really hard to take that uncertainty i realized oh no it
does not work if you have like 25 families agreeing on how to do it and build it out and everyone
gets his plot and then they i saw that usually does not work out that's why almost all intentional
communities fail it's not because voluntary cooperation doesn't fail it's because it doesn't
have a contractual basis and it's better actually to not fragment the ownership of the whole because
every plot depends in value on everything else and you can still have ownership but it's like
financing a ship going overseas a highly uncertain thing you don't fractionalize the ship by everyone
has a room on the ship and one part of the ship and you have to sail and i have to rudder
kind of thing as we have shares that was a big in innovation in europe that there are other ways to
legally have a legally certain property with better incentives like is that how the the croatia
property works then 25 people have all owned a share in the whole place uh no uh it's even more
than that because i think it'll be even then too risky to bet it all on croatia okay more locations
oh so more locations me as a family if i wanted to be a part of this so is it true you've got five
or you're planning five locations or you have five we already have four and uh we're scouting
the fifth okay so say you've got five locations so the idea is i buy a share of five locations
and then as a result i have the option to live in any one of them and how do you work out well
but i don't have a house i have the option to be in the whole place you're a co-owner of everything
which is mostly bitcoin that's why a lot of the people that go along and i've only very recently
let in other families in the thing originally was just a private idea with a friend of mine
to just pull our Bitcoin and do something that we need
and then it makes sense.
And then you usually make that Bitcoin as a capital investment.
It goes into the collateral.
It's an added diversification that still the Bitcoin is there.
You have a legal owner of all the stock of Bitcoin,
but it's not in your person anymore.
It can't be taken from your person.
You have shares, which are a bit better for the fiat kind of rails,
and its anonymous shares in a Swiss company
with good legal protection.
So, of course, it's a trade-off.
But with that, still, you'd prefer self-custody Bitcoin and shares.
But with the trade-off now, you are a co-owner of a holding
that's mainly backed by Bitcoin
and then now owns additional daughter companies
that own plots and own the houses and own the locations.
And as a shareholder, you can now reserve based on your shares.
you can freeze those shares you are not selling those shares and then you like say okay i block
that house i want to be there and it's just like one option of course our own it is to make it as
flexible for the shareholders so if you want to get out can the share price go up and down
like yes it'll go it will go up yeah it could go down well whatever because it follows it will
follow Bitcoin closely.
Oh, okay, right.
So the backing, the Bitcoin backing is what?
It's a Bitcoin treasury company, which is not public and will not do the hype of the
Bitcoin treasury companies, which has not been going that well.
So it'll have an MNAF of close to one, usually close to one.
But the idea is if you want to, say you want to leave the scheme and you want to sell that
option, then the same person pays the same amount of Bitcoin.
So the price of Bitcoin might have changed,
but the actual amount of Bitcoin would be the same.
Is that right?
Yes.
It's not as liquid as holding Bitcoin in self-custody.
Again, that's the trade-off.
But it's much, much more liquid than holding a share in a venture,
which is always like you have a share based on the valuation
of a future success of a venture usually,
which is very liquid.
That's why people don't look at the price every day
if they have ventures and that's one advantage.
or real estate which is also very illiquid it's much more liquid because it's a share
backed by very liquid form of capital so i think the trade-off is okay and how do you work out
who has what when and as in buildings you know like say you've got these five locations all
around the world and i i now want to be in i don't know where panama i don't know where the
Where are the other locations?
I won reveal all of the locations Oh okay fair enough So how do I know that there gonna be a place for me there Do I have to book it Is there a bit of software that does all this
Yes, yes.
Okay.
But it'll be a very fair and clear system
because you are a co-owner actually.
And then if we see there's like more need,
because we have so many shareholders
and so little houses,
it would make sense
because more shareholders means more capital,
means more locations
and more expansion of existing locations.
How much of it's up and running at the moment then?
Like how much of it can you personally use
with your family, for example?
Can you go to the Croatia one and live there?
Almost.
The building is finished.
Now we just do the interior finishes,
having kitchens and furniture.
What are you going to do as an individual?
Are you going to go and live there for six months straight away or something?
Not yet.
No.
For me and the part of the shareholders, it's a pure plan B insurance kind of thing.
Oh, really?
Yes.
So you'll leave them empty in case.
No, I don't have to leave it empty.
It's a refuge I can use as a shareholder.
Oh, sure. Right. Okay.
And so, yeah, part of the shareholders don't use them out.
so it's
I don't see
that the
at the current
stage
it's not at all
the problem
that we have
like so many
people living
there
it's oversubscribed
on the living
side
it's because
it's a pretty
high level
of initial
investment
which is
about the
price of a
house
but in one
of the
settlements
so then
compared to
a UK home
or so
it's a relatively
low
amount of
money
of course
we'd like
rent out
to compatible families,
a part of the places that are not used
if we don't use them ourselves.
So there will always be a buffer
for shareholders that actually need it
and want to use it.
But you don't have to.
And for me, that makes it much easier now
because otherwise I would have to convince
my whole family for that one location
and that one spot now and make all that investment up front it usually does not happen
and then like we take a guess and then it doesn't work out and then it's all gone
it's the kind of thing now i i think it's much better to have kind of insurance that you know
there are locations for people who value freedom the more come in the better it scales the more
choices we have but we already have pretty good choices whenever that becomes relevant
and it's for some it may be relevant because they may figure out okay i live in germany i have a
good life it's good i could move to switzerland or i could do that lifestyle and you compare and you
figure out wow it's like from value for me personally it's much higher than being in
switzerland now for me it could be that switzerland goes further to the worse and either i have to
leave or want to leave or I just spend part of the year elsewhere and I just want to have
more options that for me is freedom have as many options as possible without giving away
the thing that mostly gives me those options and that's the upside of Bitcoin still appreciating
so when at the moment so the plan is five locations but at the moment if you more okay if you want to
buy in do you buy into one and then do you have to add capital at a later stage or is there
it's it how does it work is it is that the advantage of being early i suppose right so
that's an incentive to come in early is so as the as it progresses you end up with more properties
at your disposal oh right that's interesting and how public's this i mean oh not at all not at all
i mean you've got a website right yes it's like okay not at all was exaggerated so it's free city
conference there was two other conferences that i are you looking for people to come and buy at
places or not i'm open to people to join i think if it makes sense to them and it's really started
from big kind of families pooling their bitcoin to do something that is of value to everyone and
the more people join in the better economies of scale to do that it's like a family fund of people
who have similar values but are at different stages of their life maybe so for everyone has
a different way of looking at we have some families that are actually already living at one location
not right there but close to it and want to move in once the house is ready a kind of thing and we
have people think i don't think i'll ever live at one of those locations but it's good to know
that i can go and it's going to be part of something that seems productive and seems to
offer more options to people that don't have that wealth that I enjoy and maybe have less options
because of course the economics of it makes a lifestyle possible to people that is reserved to
the ultra high net worth if you have the money for a second and third home that can stay empty
the whole year like many wealthy people do of course you probably don't need it you would need
it if you figure out well having my own luxury condo is like having your own yacht a pain in the
usually with the upkeep and then you don't have the right community around if you have children
that is maybe important and all these little trade-offs and variables and I think the overall
like risk value structure is better if you do it in that joint are you ever planning on making it
like a normal like a normal business like a you know a public a lot like a lot of the people
emerging in the free city space at the moment.
They're offering freer places,
the option to buy into a freer place
and there's different levels of autonomy.
Are you ever planning on running it like that?
No.
The trade-off is that I value privacy
and it's important.
And I don't think it's a good idea
to do the political game.
I don't want to have like a raise of flag
before I have a reason to raise a flag.
because I don't want to live in a country
where the government considers me an enemy.
It's just, I think, the risk side
lowers the value for me a lot.
I don't have to.
I'm privileged, of course.
I have a good passport
and the wealth to be mobile
and live at any place.
So why would I go to a place?
So this kind of sovereignty thing,
I love.
I would love to see places
that can leverage all the network effects
of attracting entrepreneurs
to build businesses on location,
industry on location.
That's amazing.
We are getting there in our lifetime probably, but it's a billion dollars investment, I think, and not the hundreds, millions that I think are possible to raise now for the niche that we are in and that I'd be comfortable in running that kind of risk return calculus.
So I'd avoid any kind of public, like, oh, that's our free space.
Because, and we saw it in the pandemic, and afterwards, don't draw too much attention to it.
I believe in the decentralized, bottom-up way and being very pragmatic.
Because if it's about you and your family, of course, from the real political thing, like, what would be great?
I love people taking risks and putting up the flag and being the markers for the freedom movement.
That's all amazing just from the very pragmatic view of a family father.
Privacy is a crucial counterpart of liberty.
Yeah, it's interesting.
That idea has come onto my radar recently a lot more as a good strategy.
You know, Jaco Mazzucco.
I was chatting to him the other day and we were talking in depth about free cities and Bitcoin and all this kind of stuff and he said
what about just making a place and just keeping it a secret and and i and i thought yeah actually
and by the end of the conversation i'm like yeah this is a really valid strategy and
there are plenty of people doing it we just don't know about it there's i mean the whole free city
spectrum of autonomy you know with intentional communities at one end you know who knows what
else is out there if you live in the middle of idaho on a ranch uh with with your family and
friends yeah well it's a it's a trade-off always you can't keep it entirely private if it's not only
you yeah we don't have this kind of reclusive sworn groups of people that stay together that
would be a religious group yes that can keep a secret like that in a community because you need
scale you need a kind of network effect of course me and my three best buddies maybe can manage to
keep such a secret so i knew it's a trade-off you know so i need some scale because otherwise i can
always be on my own and have my little reclusive private uh chalet in the alps no one knows about
and but i don't get that of attracting other people and finding other people
it would be great if i could be entirely public because then i have much more people so it's a
fairly small project on the people side it's a big capital investment because it needs that in
in order to work out but that's that's why i go that way and try to find the trade-off and reach
out to the few people i realize yeah it could be something for me and then it's at this stage where
i just look at potential shareholders too because it needs a lot of capital up front to then have
more options and then i hope that gradually i find out how to work out this trade-off between
privacy and public so of course it's not entirely private someone who is like the evil could figure
out uh where that place is can be entirely secretive about it that's always the challenge
but i figure if i don't talk about it at all then it would only be me and my best buddies who knew
about it I don't know whether I know you were sitting in on Tim Stern's talk his place out in
Venezuela is it Venezuela yes yes you know the system they have there it literally interview everyone that wants to live there I mean that obviously another option but I hilarious like they really have
literally meetings with a picture of someone what they do for a living how much their net worth is
what they're like and they all vote yes or no and I don't like that guy that I mean that is one way
to do it i suppose um but um you're always interesting i mean i've never heard about it
probably i know i know people that do it completely privately but not that's very common i know a lot
of families that do it i mean it's very common even around where i live for families to live on
the same plot and they specifically buy plots that have buildings outbuildings that can do up and then
you get the generational living thing which is phenomenal i i really do believe in generational
living i think it's something that needs to come back i think it really does but i don't know of
anyone doing what you're doing which is kind of like semi semi-private it's in many ways it's a
compromise in between like it's a lot of trade-offs it's not entirely location independent but it's not
entirely dependent on the location uh it's not the best solution for every family for a lot of
family it'll be too mobile for other families it's it's too stationary because it depends on you like
coming back to the similar places and then be with similar families and adopt yourself a little bit
if you want that continue continuous social environment but that's that's your choice
so but i i mean that's one of the insights on austrian economics it's all about trade-offs
and opportunity costs and having more options rather than less options.
So am I right in thinking that if someone listening to this
could contact you and introduce themselves to you
and there could be a dialogue to be had,
they could easily be part of it.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Interesting.
Well, there you go.
I think that's a fair place to end.
Actually, something I just thought of.
I interviewed someone the other day that knows you quite well Leon Vancombe do you know Leon
right I just I noticed it in speaking to you now where you and him maybe he learned the ideas from you but he his ideas on real estate are incredibly influenced by what you saying I imagining I hope so I spoke to him for two hours and he is I mean
he's a real estate guy as well. And he is restructuring his whole business to basically
get out of the real estate aspect of it and into the Bitcoin aspect. And according to him,
he thinks the whole thing is repricing as we speak now. And I assume you do as well.
you know the the money is moving from real estate one of the primary sources is the money moving
from real estate into bitcoin wow i'm a good i mean i say that's good to hear but obviously
i've got a big bit of real estate that's quite a large part of my net worth unfortunately
um but uh hey so be it you know like that's that's the way it's going to be i'm i've got
i've got my plan b's i've got my plan b's anyway right and thanks that's very fascinating you know
i'm just going to i'm just going to clarify what it is because just based on what i've i think i've
just learned network of semi-private places which are plan b options for families it's very family
it's nothing to do because specifically because that's the limiting factor uh you don't have to
need to have a family but if you have a family your options are usually more restricted because
if you're a single guy you could like live in the middle of africa and be happy and take all the
risks and and be at the war line and take all the value options in the world if you have a family
it's it's you care about safety accessibility and this network of other families and the network
grows and as more and more trusted people become a part of it and then it becomes a kind of network
of plan b options or even just options you know and the options are very much inspired by the
notion that being a tourist in a country is better than being a resident of the country
phenomenal and it's and if people want to find out about it it's um citadel.garden right rahim
Thank you, Tim.
Fab. Really interesting. Really, really interesting.
I'm really happy people are doing stuff like this.
I noticed this year at the conference that there lots of people doing different versions of this now Because you know this whole thing when it first started it was very much about complete sovereignty
You know, it was all about we're going to create sovereign places
or we're going to get semi-sovereign places.
And now this other end of the market is like evolving,
which is more realistic in many ways, much more shorter term available.
you know there's none of that long-term negotiation and interestingly I had this
conversation with you know Liberland you know Vitt right I was talking to Vitt I've interviewed
him the other day at their Serbia location you know they have yes dark and I said Vitt this is
Liberland I said we're living he said like you've got none other problems here no one's banging on
the door no one's waking you up at night knocking down your structures you're all living here and
It's actually pretty cool.
And you've got a nice lake and nice little buildings and stuff.
And it's true.
And he's dead.
You know, look, Liberland is a lot of things.
Yeah, sure.
There's this bit of land.
But Liberland's an idea as well.
We've got a Liberland community coming up in Paraguay.
We've got a Liberland community here.
It's like the network state kind of idea of Liberland is also a very important part of it.
And I'm starting to see a lot of the ideas, like, mature.
Do you know what I mean?
Like the Free City ideas are maturing
and they're all moving, I think, in the same direction.
It's like a spectrum of ideas all moving in the same direction.
It's really, really inspiring.
And, you know, I think we're entering a new phase of all this stuff, I think.
It's really phenomenal.
And, yeah, I'm really happy that you're doing something like that
because it's just another arrow in the quiver, you know,
and it's all good.
It's all good.
But thanks for coming and telling us about it
and thanks for being so candid,
seeing as though it's kind of like a secret project.
It's secretive.
But we've got a pretty large number of listeners these days.
So you may get a few phone calls,
but hopefully it's all the good people.
Anyway, but thanks for coming in.
It's been great to see you.
Thanks, Tim.
you