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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 159 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Brought to you as always by Veritas Villages, their building off-grid freedom-oriented communities in Latin America.

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and according to me at least these communities should appeal to you if you're a freedom lover

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looking for a great plan b option or in fact as many have chosen already a plan a home for the

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bitcoiners amongst you you can buy your property with bitcoin and you can spend bitcoin at

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communities they can even help you mine bitcoin with the excess energy that your self-sufficient

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home will inevitably produce www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities for more info please

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mention the free cities podcast sent you and check the show notes for previous interviews

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i've conducted with patrick who runs the company you can listen to him talking about everything

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veritas villages and get the best idea of what they're up to and if you would like to do business

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with them right. I said last week I'd bring you another dispatch from Honduras this week because

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it's Honduran General Elections Week and here it is. However, I was expecting to have an election

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result to talk about with you already. By the way, it's Tuesday, the Tuesday after the Sunday

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election when I'm recording this introduction and I'm looking at Polymarket right now.

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the degenerates over there have been betting on the result and the graph well basically it's looked

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like a concertina for the last couple of days that means it's oscillating between two people

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fortunately i suppose for us it's fluctuating between two candidates who are favorable towards

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zedais that's nasrala from the liberal party and asfura from the national party although i would

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say Asfura would be the more favourable for the ZA regime. And in fact, as we saw just before the

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election, that was the candidate that Trump openly came out and backed at the last minute. Let's have

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a look what the news wires are saying. The BBC is saying the two leading candidates to be president

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of Honduras were locked in a, inverted commas, technical tie on Monday, with a razor-thin margin

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separating them. People are also, by the looks of it, reporting that Asfura is ahead at the moment,

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at least on Tuesday, by 515 votes. God only knows what is going on over there.

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It's Honduras after all. At least, though, the authoritarian lefties have been kicked out.

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Interestingly, today's guest mentioned the potential problem of these two parties not

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joining forces and deciding to campaign separately but in our discussion that was the chance that it

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might offer the libre party they're the left-wing party an opportunity to sneak in at the last

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minute well that hasn't happened so it's good to see another country in that part of the world

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rejecting socialism wholeheartedly right today's guest yes it's massimo mazzone founder and president

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of a number of large companies and business conglomerates working in Latin America.

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But more interestingly for us, of course, he's the mastermind behind Ciudad Morazan,

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the other, in inverted commas, free city in Honduras that we always talk about.

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He's a staunch libertarian.

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Massimo is a big fan of the book Entrepreneurial Communities, An Alternative to the State.

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if you don't know that book give it a look it brings up the idea of entrecoms and this is the

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model that massimo has used for his community they seek to replace the functions of a traditional

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state across the board if they can the big difference between morazan and prospera the

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place you all know is that in an intercom like morazan all property and that's residential or

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commercial is leased to people not sold to people in Prospera you can buy property you can invest

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in the infrastructure they're looking for outside investment Morazan is a private

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service-oriented city offering leases instead of ownership and as far as I understand that

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simplifies many things administration and enforcement and ensures that the operator

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It retains control over things like standards, maintenance and compliance, etc.

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Very different model to Prospera.

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Certainly, as Massimo put it last time I spoke to him,

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it's the inverted commas project of my life.

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He does seem to hold it very close to his heart.

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Often referred to as a libertarian city without any libertarians.

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morazan's almost exclusively populated by blue-collar local honduran workers living in

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quite stark contrast to the neighboring city of cheloma which is state run now you don't ever hear

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a huge amount about morazan and according to me this is for two main reasons one is that massimo

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initially funded the whole project himself and is not looking for investment so he's not interested

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in selling the idea to outsiders. Secondly though, more importantly, probably, the many hit pieces

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written about ZAs, which is where a lot of people do actually hear about them,

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conveniently choose to ignore Morazan when they're reporting in Honduras. And the main reason for

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that is that Morazan doesn't adhere to the usual negative talking points that those kind of articles

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love to focus on now i think that's a big shame obviously it's a great project and i could easily

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argue this the most successful free city project in the world that depends on which metric you use

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of course but if it's number of residents i'm pretty sure morazan is number one right quick

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summary from fountain of the key topics of this conversation free cities movement the oligarch

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free city conspiracy i'm asking everyone about this one and massimo is a great person to ask

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because i i always think of him as an oligarch but he probably doesn't anyway so your dad morizan

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in honduras libertarianism and governance economic development and investment politics

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in honduras and international influence that really didn't give much away did it

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okay it's basically me and massimo having a bit of a chinwag in prague hope you enjoy it many

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thanks to our subscribers on fountain and please consider doing the same yourself if you're into

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the value for value platforms six dollars a month will give you special access to things like bonus

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episodes and early episodes sometimes and more and obviously you just might want to support us

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and the work we're doing here at the free cities podcast right if you're not into that well quick

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review on Apple or Spotify would be greatly appreciated. It only takes a moment and makes

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a huge difference, I'm told. Right, let's jump into the discussion. And if you're watching the

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video version of this, you can see that Massimo really is sitting back and relaxing. I didn't

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notice this at the time So you probably should do as well Sit back relax and enjoy my conversation with Massimo Mazzoni

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Because, you know, when you look at the free cities thing, it's like a spectrum, right?

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You've got, you know, you've got the Liberland at one end, full-blown sovereignty.

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They're looking to describe, and then you've got intentional communities at the other end.

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And all the stuff in between.

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but they're moving they're moving together i can see that and now because a lot of the the the

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the intentional community end of the market is really starting to buzz which is people just

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saying do you know what let's just forget forget all the the sovereignty stuff to begin with let's

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just create the place and and and it's easier in a way to start with the thing it's easier i mean if

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you are a full-fledged libertarian it's not what you're looking for but they move the overton window

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and it helps if they have success like the one of patrick for example they move the overton window

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yeah but they are like patrick patrick's thing is i i'm it's funny it's interesting i'm not sure

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Patrick realizes how big Patrick's thing could be because he he's got it's a great idea and there's

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a demand for it and all you have to do is build it that's my impression of it just by looking at it

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and um because I'm seeing now just by talking to people that lots of people are having that same

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idea in different ways some people are more public than others some people are quite quiet about it

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They just want to do it and be left alone.

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They don't even want to sell the idea.

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They just want to make it for themselves, you know.

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And it's, yeah, it's, you know, it's happening.

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And people are people that it's a decentralized network of people looking for freedom and autonomy.

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And since 2020, there's this massive push of new people starting to think.

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And now more, it's like the guerrilla army of people looking for freedom cannot be beaten because they're decentralized.

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They're all over the place.

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They're hiding and ducking and diving and making this and doing that.

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And it's, yeah, it's really, it's really, really super, super.

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Yeah, I agree.

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COVID increased the demand by 30 times.

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There are people that would never be libertarian and then became libertarian.

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But Patrick is very effective because he can fill his community pretty far.

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If you think about the Free Stater, I mean he's more successful than the Free Stater,

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if you think about it, smaller of course, but with all the publicity, advertising,

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that the Free Stater had in the United States, they could move only, what, 10, 12,000 people in 20 years.

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and he moved hundreds of people.

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Yeah.

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Well, the funny thing is,

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I just mentioned this to Rahim.

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I was talking to Rahim before you.

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And I was in Liberland recently

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and talking to VIT.

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But do you know about the setup of Liberland?

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On the Serbian side of the river,

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they have a small area called,

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and they just bought some land.

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It's an old campground, really.

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It had a clubhouse and stuff.

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And they basically based themselves there.

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because it's on the other side of the river from actual liberland and it's a place you can go in

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it's in a different country it's neutral this kind of stuff and and i was laughing i'm saying

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look this is liberland we were in arc i said we're here he said like you don't have any hassle

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if you go over there people give you shit they're always trying to knock your houses down they're

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doing that but here like we're living this beautiful life swimming in the lake saunas all

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this kind of stuff and and it was a joke but there was a lot of truth there you know the idea

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and and this is where i think all you all these different parts of the free cities movement come

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together the the network state idea the idea that there is this group of people who share this idea

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in the case of liberland it's liberland liberland is the idea and you can have a liberland like they

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do they've got in um one of the south american countries or central american countries there's

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community of Liberland is there that is just living together. So the idea of Liberland is a

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decentralized idea, as well as the fact, yes, it is a place. It is a place in Kornusiga, what they call it,

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which is that little bit of land that no one claims. But it's also in that little pocket of Serbia. And

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that's the best place to be. It sounds almost like a diaspora of, a phantom diaspora, people of

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liberland that now are around the world setting their community one day they will go back to their

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promised land in the danube yeah maybe that's how that that idea begins life

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they're dispossessed people they never even had their land to begin with they just

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decided they were dispossessed yeah i don't know it's just i don't know i'm i'm very i'm very

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excited i'm excited about what's happening with you as well i by the way i laughed out loud when

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you sent me that email i don't know whether you remember yeah i i i could i i was i almost spat

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my coffee out um i i won't expose i won't say exactly what it was but i sent you an email so

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will you come on the podcast and you you sent back yeah something which is very anti-government

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Well, I said that I just don't care what they think.

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I mean, last year and the year before, the year before you invited me and I said that my lawyers suggested me not to come because I tend to put the food on my mouth.

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But at this point, I don't care what they think.

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I mean, we already sued them and so I don't think anything worse can happen.

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right well that's in that's where i'd like to start then because i i just did a quick google

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search on news to see what people would talk i did it across across all languages and got

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chatty butita sort of you know i was trying to get a sense because you know massimo you're the

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you're very quiet and secretive not secretive you don't shout and talk about morizan and it's

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obvious why you're not interested really in attracting people there necessarily certainly

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not in the west you don't need investment there necessarily you know um so you are one of the

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projects that i i don't hear much about your sister company your sister well sister project

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you know the other z a that everyone knows prosper is always in the news um and they have high profile

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people going there and they have all this kind of stuff um so so i did a i did a look to see of

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what's happening and there's literally nothing happening even in the news all that there was in

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2025 was about you know the ZA Morazan lawsuit new arbitration against Honduras company promoting

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ZA Files lawsuit there was nothing else that's the only story right yeah and I mean also because

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in Choloma now basically everybody knows us because he has a relative inside or and they just

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don't believe anymore to the lies of Libre, the party government.

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And so they just let us alone.

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In these years, for example, theoretically, we do not exist, right?

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But nobody of authority shows up.

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the people of the Ministry of Education or, I don't know, the equivalent of the IRS to check the business inside, you know, the small business we have.

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The police came once because he said that some of our one tenant of us had stolen a car and it was true I mean the owner had Apple things or something the car was there A tracking device yeah

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So we went with our security to talk to the guy, and the guy basically disappeared and left the car there.

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so we gave the car back to the police. The owner didn't even want to put a criminal complaint.

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So we are even starting to work with the local police. I know my people of security call the local

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police when there are new tenants to know if, you know, a little bit of background to avoid

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They are marero criminals.

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They call sometimes to know if a person,

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like a certain person lives with us.

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So we are becoming normal in the society of Choloma.

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So do you think then that,

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because Prospero wasn't left alone, right?

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I think people did turn up there and try and close gates

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and do all kinds of stuff.

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Nothing happened in the end.

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But do you think the distinction,

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and I'm always, I will always make this distinction between you and Prospero in being that you are basically a place for local Hondurans.

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And Prospero is more likely to be a place of incomers.

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I know that a lot of people in Prospero who work there are Hondurans, but the kind of, you know,

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and you see this a lot when journalists fly to Honduras to find out about the ZAs.

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They've never come out.

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Almost never come to, you know.

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To us, yeah.

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Yeah. In fact, I'm always calling them out. I mean, there's a, in fact, there's a new one. You're going to love this, right? Actually, I want to know your opinion on this because recently, this was like a few, like about a week ago. There's, I doubt you know this person, but there's a, there's a very, I, someone who I respect, a very well respected sort of investigative journalist called Whitney Webb. Have you ever heard of her?

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she does whitney webb is very um thorough in investigations and she tends to join the dots

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very high levels corruption conspiracy this kind of stuff right and but they also syndicate

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articles by other authors and she she syndicated an article by a british journalist it was called

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city states without limits right and it's a massive article really long like a thousand you

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know like 10 000 words all about so almost a book yeah yeah and in two parts i mean i'm guessing

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10 000 words it took me a long time to read it i don't normally read things that long but but i was

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just enthralled because basically because in fact i you're the perfect person to talk about this

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actually i'll give you a synopsis of it basically the synopsis was this guy had basically put

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together and like i say it was going out on a very legitimate channel that i thought that i

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normally respect it said a powerful group of silicon valley oligarchs are pushing for the

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construction of privatized city states aligned with a global network and they want to move away

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from nation states to create an international network of city states so it's a conspiracy of

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oligarchs now i kind of well it's respectfully call you an oligarch okay i'm not not a tech one

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But I think in that case, they were referring to the network state of Balaji.

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Yes, they are.

205
00:20:14,576 --> 00:20:16,336
This is pretty open.

206
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I mean, Balaji is like this.

207
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They want to create a network of city-state with a certain level of autonomy from the state.

208
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We just happen not to have anything to do with that.

209
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We are completely another segment.

210
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I hope they are successful, but if Banachi come to Sudamora-san, I would go away disgusted by the idea of living in a place like that.

211
00:20:44,336 --> 00:20:52,276
I know, but the point is, the point is, Massimo, that the way it's written is it's a grand conspiracy.

212
00:20:52,696 --> 00:21:03,916
It's literally a conspiracy of tech oligarchs who want to live in city states and outside of the rule of the government and stuff, which, like I say, is kind of true.

213
00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:05,856
But it's not a conspiracy.

214
00:21:06,416 --> 00:21:08,396
They openly say that.

215
00:21:08,816 --> 00:21:09,176
Yeah.

216
00:21:09,316 --> 00:21:09,576
OK.

217
00:21:09,576 --> 00:21:17,816
So you don't, I mean, do you think there's any dark way to look at this?

218
00:21:18,056 --> 00:21:20,176
No, it's not dark.

219
00:21:20,316 --> 00:21:25,496
I mean, it's a political aspiration of Palazs in Naval and this group.

220
00:21:25,656 --> 00:21:27,916
We don't know really how many people they are.

221
00:21:29,216 --> 00:21:35,776
And yes, it does as a part of natural rights.

222
00:21:35,776 --> 00:21:39,676
But it's especially frontier.

223
00:21:40,096 --> 00:21:43,016
It's a part of utilitarian.

224
00:21:43,256 --> 00:21:52,776
I mean, they realize that in a place in which there is not a political process as suffocating

225
00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:58,076
as there is everywhere in democratic states, they could do great things.

226
00:21:58,776 --> 00:22:00,956
And they are open about that.

227
00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:09,436
and I don't think they really want to secede or to have a complete,

228
00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:13,616
they just want to have a pretty advanced level of autonomy,

229
00:22:14,076 --> 00:22:19,436
so it's not easy, but not necessarily seceding.

230
00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:21,916
And the thing is, it's not a conspiracy,

231
00:22:23,216 --> 00:22:27,276
because Balaji talked about this one day and the day after also.

232
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I think that the way it was pitched was that someone like Peter Till, for example, who's getting a lot of bad press at the moment.

233
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He's he's he's I think anyway, and certainly where I look, he's been painted as the Antichrist, almost Peter Till, because he's part of Palantir and he's part of this and that.

234
00:22:43,556 --> 00:22:57,156
But the idea is that they they believe and there's this new thing called the dark enlightenment, which is an idea that there needs to be an elite class that rules and all this kind of stuff.

235
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and they're part of it and you know i mean i can i i certainly can kind of see that there's truth

236
00:23:05,016 --> 00:23:11,336
in it in a way and they certainly do believe this stuff but whether or not it's a massive conspiracy

237
00:23:11,336 --> 00:23:20,116
is is a is a strange concept because i i i'm part of this movement in a way and i see the people and

238
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i interact with them and you know like say take destiny or uh destiny is a good example because

239
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he's a he's a what do you make of destiny for example what's your impression of knowing what's

240
00:23:31,496 --> 00:23:38,036
going on there and knowing who's involved first of all it's extremely serious i mean there are

241
00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:48,256
surely tens of millions and very likely hundreds of millions behind destiny it they spent at least

242
00:23:48,256 --> 00:23:52,136
five years, maybe more on that.

243
00:23:53,416 --> 00:23:59,196
And there are people that are another order of magnitude

244
00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:04,536
in terms of the resource they can move compared to the usual people

245
00:24:04,536 --> 00:24:08,656
we're talking about, with the exception of these guys in Silicon Valley.

246
00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:15,736
And so I'm extremely happy that they did it because,

247
00:24:15,736 --> 00:24:21,916
Because as I told you last time, I really don't care which one of the various ways of

248
00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:23,976
reaching liberty is going to happen.

249
00:24:23,976 --> 00:24:26,716
I just want at least one to work, right?

250
00:24:26,716 --> 00:24:29,416
So it's another option.

251
00:24:29,416 --> 00:24:41,316
Now I had the opportunity to talk with Olivier once and he's clearly a libertarian.

252
00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:49,876
It was a strange position that it's not only against the coercive state, it's also for some

253
00:24:49,876 --> 00:25:06,174
reason against the power of corporation so it doesn want a corporate governance in destiny And as you know my model which is the Entrecom is totally corporate

254
00:25:06,174 --> 00:25:15,334
But the idea is that if you have 50,000 Entrecoms in competition, liberty comes from that.

255
00:25:16,654 --> 00:25:23,514
So it's very different, if you want, inside libertarianism.

256
00:25:23,514 --> 00:25:25,454
but still a libertarian place.

257
00:25:25,934 --> 00:25:28,374
And I actually tried to challenge him and said,

258
00:25:28,474 --> 00:25:30,054
but you're a libertarian place.

259
00:25:30,134 --> 00:25:35,194
So if I buy some land and I build some building

260
00:25:35,194 --> 00:25:38,074
and I rent them and being my land,

261
00:25:38,154 --> 00:25:39,814
I decide that there are some rules,

262
00:25:39,814 --> 00:25:43,134
like not spitting the floor or things like this.

263
00:25:44,094 --> 00:25:48,074
So how are you going to stop me?

264
00:25:48,214 --> 00:25:51,774
I mean, it's not very libertarian to stop me

265
00:25:51,774 --> 00:25:53,314
if I buy from other people.

266
00:25:53,514 --> 00:25:57,514
And it didn't really have an answer.

267
00:25:57,514 --> 00:26:01,514
Anyway, any one of these things,

268
00:26:01,514 --> 00:26:07,514
small like a small community that has nothing in terms of autonomy,

269
00:26:07,514 --> 00:26:13,514
or big like destiny, or super big like the Brunei thing,

270
00:26:13,514 --> 00:26:19,514
any one, it's another opportunity that something will stick in the wall.

271
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And the good thing of this is that if one stick, it will create an ecosystem because it will suck the capital and the best people from the world.

272
00:26:30,874 --> 00:26:38,154
The people that want to be free, which means they don't want endouts from the government.

273
00:26:38,314 --> 00:26:42,834
They want to produce themselves for themselves.

274
00:26:43,234 --> 00:26:47,594
And these are the people that pay most of the taxes in the world.

275
00:26:47,594 --> 00:26:55,874
So once one of these places works, it will be a magnet and the other country will have to compete.

276
00:26:56,014 --> 00:26:58,894
And the only way to compete is to offer something even better.

277
00:26:59,634 --> 00:27:06,474
So I am extremely optimistic that if something sticks, then it will work.

278
00:27:08,314 --> 00:27:11,674
There is obviously, actually, before I go on, can you do us a favor?

279
00:27:11,754 --> 00:27:13,574
Can you put that bottle on that side? Thanks.

280
00:27:13,574 --> 00:27:17,794
I agree that theoretically

281
00:27:17,794 --> 00:27:20,254
it will make the state

282
00:27:20,254 --> 00:27:21,894
have to compete more

283
00:27:21,894 --> 00:27:24,174
but often we don't see that

284
00:27:24,174 --> 00:27:24,994
we see the opposite

285
00:27:24,994 --> 00:27:28,234
the state just basically decides not to compete

286
00:27:28,234 --> 00:27:30,994
and just makes new laws and legislations

287
00:27:30,994 --> 00:27:32,394
or blocks things

288
00:27:32,394 --> 00:27:34,754
that seems to be the modus operandi

289
00:27:34,754 --> 00:27:35,434
at the moment

290
00:27:35,434 --> 00:27:36,794
if you look to Europe

291
00:27:36,794 --> 00:27:39,174
I'm talking about other states

292
00:27:39,174 --> 00:27:40,354
but yes

293
00:27:40,354 --> 00:27:42,174
now you have

294
00:27:42,174 --> 00:27:50,334
centripetal forces of cartelization, for example, the 12% minimum.

295
00:27:51,134 --> 00:28:00,994
So on one side, they say, okay, to avoid that this guy use their feet

296
00:28:00,994 --> 00:28:06,554
to look for the best place to stay, let's do this law of 12%.

297
00:28:06,554 --> 00:28:12,554
But then to have a cartel of so many countries is difficult.

298
00:28:12,554 --> 00:28:20,374
So at the same time, they stab the other in the back, like the Italian law that you pay

299
00:28:20,374 --> 00:28:28,214
100,000 euro and you don't have to pay other income taxes.

300
00:28:29,294 --> 00:28:30,294
It's unbelievable.

301
00:28:30,534 --> 00:28:32,774
But there are a lot of people that are going to Italy.

302
00:28:32,774 --> 00:28:42,554
I mean, it was unthinkable because taxes were so high.

303
00:28:42,714 --> 00:28:45,394
Now, Italy, it's a place where you live very well.

304
00:28:45,534 --> 00:28:49,314
So if you don't have the problem of taxes, it's actually a pretty good place to go.

305
00:28:49,394 --> 00:28:54,694
And they were so successful that they went to 200 and now to 300.

306
00:28:56,234 --> 00:29:01,074
And yeah, and then Spain and Portugal tried.

307
00:29:01,074 --> 00:29:11,014
But the case of Portugal was, you know, that they eliminated it because the local socialists said that they were taking all the best houses.

308
00:29:11,914 --> 00:29:18,034
So at the same time, there is a tendency to cartelization, which is awful.

309
00:29:18,634 --> 00:29:27,894
But nature, competition, also push them to separate and to provide something new.

310
00:29:27,894 --> 00:29:37,974
So I am hopeful and relatively optimist that in the next three, five years, something will become more.

311
00:29:38,094 --> 00:29:39,774
I actually think more than one.

312
00:29:40,654 --> 00:29:48,874
And then some, this type of competition will force other country to compete.

313
00:29:49,214 --> 00:29:50,014
Well, we'll see.

314
00:29:50,294 --> 00:29:51,254
What about Europe, though?

315
00:29:51,514 --> 00:29:55,174
A lot of people think of Europe as a bit of a lost cause in that sense.

316
00:29:55,174 --> 00:30:02,414
I mean all the places where you know free city projects are popping up don't tend to be

317
00:30:02,414 --> 00:30:08,394
the UK Europe these kind of places yeah and it doesn't look like they will either because

318
00:30:08,394 --> 00:30:18,474
they're not desperate enough I was with I met what's the name of the guy that invented

319
00:30:18,474 --> 00:30:22,394
Paul Romer.

320
00:30:22,514 --> 00:30:23,274
Paul Romer.

321
00:30:23,294 --> 00:30:24,954
Paul Romer 12 years ago.

322
00:30:25,354 --> 00:30:27,914
So it was the first version, not the red.

323
00:30:28,234 --> 00:30:31,674
And he wanted to meet potential entrepreneurs

324
00:30:31,674 --> 00:30:36,294
that were interested in doing that

325
00:30:36,294 --> 00:30:37,894
because there was nobody interested.

326
00:30:38,134 --> 00:30:39,534
I mean, the typical families,

327
00:30:39,594 --> 00:30:41,494
they were not interested in these things.

328
00:30:41,494 --> 00:30:45,654
It was an idea of Pepe Lobo, Juan Orlando,

329
00:30:45,654 --> 00:30:47,814
or Otavio Sanchez and him.

330
00:30:49,354 --> 00:30:51,994
And so he asked me at the end,

331
00:30:52,374 --> 00:30:54,174
so what do you think about it?

332
00:30:54,174 --> 00:30:56,554
I said, living in Honduras is great.

333
00:30:56,674 --> 00:30:58,374
I've been a libertarian all my life,

334
00:30:58,694 --> 00:30:59,994
and it's here, it's happening.

335
00:31:00,234 --> 00:31:02,354
So I'm very happy.

336
00:31:02,574 --> 00:31:04,074
Being a libertarian in general,

337
00:31:04,294 --> 00:31:06,454
I would have preferred that this would have happened

338
00:31:06,454 --> 00:31:09,634
in a place with rule of law and space.

339
00:31:09,634 --> 00:31:13,174
So I made the example of Canada, Australia, Finland.

340
00:31:13,174 --> 00:31:20,354
And he looked at me as I was stupid and he said, only desperate countries do desperate things.

341
00:31:20,934 --> 00:31:23,314
And Europe is not desperate enough.

342
00:31:24,194 --> 00:31:25,674
There will come a moment.

343
00:31:26,954 --> 00:31:37,374
And the political class, it's even kind of committing suicide, allowing all this unfiltered immigration.

344
00:31:37,374 --> 00:31:41,414
It's creating a blowback enormous.

345
00:31:41,414 --> 00:31:44,174
I don't understand why they do it.

346
00:31:44,234 --> 00:31:49,094
I don't understand what is for them.

347
00:31:50,434 --> 00:31:54,274
Well, I mean, there's two answers to that.

348
00:31:54,354 --> 00:31:58,554
One is it's incompetence, and the other one is it's an intentional thing.

349
00:31:58,974 --> 00:32:00,814
There's a grand conspiracy.

350
00:32:02,434 --> 00:32:07,314
I think probably if you actually dig down into it,

351
00:32:07,314 --> 00:32:14,014
there's an incentive model that basically draws the wrong people into positions of power now

352
00:32:14,014 --> 00:32:19,134
because they don't compete in the in the real world very well so they choose the kind of

353
00:32:19,134 --> 00:32:26,214
the the legislative world or the political world where they never lose their job and as a result

354
00:32:26,214 --> 00:32:30,294
you end up with the shit show we've got now which is all the terrible people in power and all the

355
00:32:30,294 --> 00:32:35,734
all the productive people basically trying to release themselves from from the terrible people

356
00:32:35,734 --> 00:32:40,874
and more often than not that these days it just means leaving it just means arbitrage with another

357
00:32:40,874 --> 00:32:45,814
country right right but it doesn't make too much sense in the public choice sense i mean

358
00:32:45,814 --> 00:32:51,854
politicians are not necessarily stupid usually they are not they are parasites but they are not

359
00:32:51,854 --> 00:33:01,334
stupid so yes they are corrupt because they need money for the campaigns but to allow i mean what's

360
00:33:01,334 --> 00:33:04,094
but in your country, I mean, what is happening with,

361
00:33:04,094 --> 00:33:07,894
it just doesn't help Stammer, what's the name of you?

362
00:33:07,894 --> 00:33:08,734
Stammer.

363
00:33:08,734 --> 00:33:09,874
Stammer, it doesn't help him,

364
00:33:09,874 --> 00:33:12,614
it just create a blowback for the blowback.

365
00:33:12,614 --> 00:33:13,614
So, it's-

366
00:33:13,614 --> 00:33:15,934
Yeah, but Stammer, I think, is-

367
00:33:15,934 --> 00:33:16,774
A true believer.

368
00:33:16,774 --> 00:33:18,294
Is involved, no, no, I don't think,

369
00:33:18,294 --> 00:33:19,934
I mean, he is a, he's very sociable,

370
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:26,872
Socialist at heart. I mean, when you look back to his past, he's been involved in very socialist movements and ideas.

371
00:33:26,872 --> 00:33:34,792
So there's that side of it. But also he's one of those politicians who's very much not an independent thinker.

372
00:33:34,872 --> 00:33:41,392
And he's part of a much bigger blob, the World Economic Forum, this kind of stuff.

373
00:33:41,732 --> 00:33:44,312
And I don't know. I don't know what happens at that level.

374
00:33:44,312 --> 00:33:51,232
it might but but i think at that level people talk about things on a much bigger scale and they do

375
00:33:51,232 --> 00:33:56,952
talk about i don't know maybe you know people they do talk about the movement of people on mass from

376
00:33:56,952 --> 00:34:04,452
one place to another in order to elicit some you know result or you know the the rise and fall of

377
00:34:04,452 --> 00:34:09,692
nations you know there's kind of stuff that someone like me i can i can speculate on but i'll never

378
00:34:09,692 --> 00:34:16,472
at the moment be sat at a table discussing an actual plan to create those things the question

379
00:34:16,472 --> 00:34:21,232
is does that stuff happen i think it does i mean maybe you know you've probably sat at a lot bigger

380
00:34:21,232 --> 00:34:29,232
tables than me but not really right okay politicians right but but that might be a i mean with one of

381
00:34:29,232 --> 00:34:33,892
the solutions that i i look at when i think about it because i've when i look at someone like starmer

382
00:34:33,892 --> 00:34:38,312
He's not a very impressive person at all.

383
00:34:38,792 --> 00:34:41,652
He's really the opposite of an impressive person.

384
00:34:41,732 --> 00:34:42,672
He's very limp-wristed.

385
00:34:43,672 --> 00:34:47,072
And when he speaks, he can't speak candidly

386
00:34:47,072 --> 00:34:49,992
because he has to think about everything he says

387
00:34:49,992 --> 00:34:52,972
because basically he's saying what someone else has told him.

388
00:34:53,572 --> 00:34:55,992
He could never sit down like you and me here

389
00:34:55,992 --> 00:34:57,412
and just talk shit or whatever.

390
00:34:57,632 --> 00:35:00,312
He couldn't do that because in the end,

391
00:35:00,392 --> 00:35:02,752
I would be able to run rings around him intellectually

392
00:35:02,752 --> 00:35:07,272
because I could just point out the idiosyncrasies of what he's saying and then it would all go to

393
00:35:07,272 --> 00:35:14,072
shit. So I don't know. I think something's happening in the world. I think you could

394
00:35:14,072 --> 00:35:20,892
easily say that, you know, like we all know that the financial system needs to be reset, right?

395
00:35:20,952 --> 00:35:26,592
That seems blatantly obvious. You know, everyone's now middle class people all over the world are

396
00:35:26,592 --> 00:35:32,752
starting to realize shit things aren't good for us at the moment and we know that historically

397
00:35:32,752 --> 00:35:40,212
things get reset normally wars big wars tend to reset an economy they you know whether they have

398
00:35:40,212 --> 00:35:46,432
that option now who knows but there's other there's other ways to reset and maybe at that

399
00:35:46,432 --> 00:35:52,132
high level these are the conversations that are being had and they involve the destruction of

400
00:35:52,132 --> 00:35:54,832
things that normal people hold very close to their hearts.

401
00:35:55,152 --> 00:35:55,572
I don't know.

402
00:35:56,032 --> 00:36:00,112
I think this is a little bit conspirative.

403
00:36:00,412 --> 00:36:01,212
Sure, sure.

404
00:36:01,272 --> 00:36:09,372
If you read, for example, the typical example is the rumble of August or July

405
00:36:09,372 --> 00:36:11,452
before the First World War.

406
00:36:11,452 --> 00:36:16,132
I mean, there were just stupid people stumbling toward the war.

407
00:36:16,252 --> 00:36:18,112
It was not a conspiration at all.

408
00:36:18,112 --> 00:36:23,472
it was just stupid and ego-driven people

409
00:36:23,472 --> 00:36:33,572
that it was like a chronicle of a foretold death of Garcia Lorca.

410
00:36:35,392 --> 00:36:36,452
So I don't know.

411
00:36:36,512 --> 00:36:38,032
I tend not to believe in these things.

412
00:36:38,152 --> 00:36:40,832
But I do believe that there are reset

413
00:36:40,832 --> 00:36:46,452
because the current Ponzi scheme that is the Western state,

414
00:36:46,452 --> 00:36:52,692
I mean, what killed it completely is the demographic crisis.

415
00:36:53,872 --> 00:36:57,552
And they could solve it with immigration,

416
00:36:57,712 --> 00:37:00,032
but not with immigration they are living now,

417
00:37:00,152 --> 00:37:03,492
because this guy comes to live, most of them, not all,

418
00:37:03,892 --> 00:37:08,872
but most of them come to live at the expenses of people

419
00:37:08,872 --> 00:37:12,132
that already live at the expense of a few guys.

420
00:37:12,132 --> 00:37:20,572
and so something will happen i hope it's not going to be disruptive and violent like a war

421
00:37:20,572 --> 00:37:27,192
maybe our movement will be a solution in a way because people will start to move and and

422
00:37:27,192 --> 00:37:33,672
and the state will have to bring because they don't have the money so they will have to bring

423
00:37:33,672 --> 00:37:39,972
down the welfare and to check to change the incentive of society well i mean not only that

424
00:37:39,972 --> 00:37:44,392
but our movement will be able to release the pressure.

425
00:37:45,372 --> 00:37:46,192
I mean, look at Dubai.

426
00:37:47,172 --> 00:37:48,792
People flock to Dubai,

427
00:37:49,472 --> 00:37:51,892
but nobody goes there to take welfare.

428
00:37:52,932 --> 00:37:55,372
I mean, the more places like Dubai that exist,

429
00:37:55,672 --> 00:37:59,272
the more opportunity there is for people to just do stuff

430
00:37:59,272 --> 00:38:00,792
rather than go somewhere.

431
00:38:01,172 --> 00:38:02,252
And that does work.

432
00:38:02,352 --> 00:38:02,932
I mean...

433
00:38:02,932 --> 00:38:03,352
Absolutely.

434
00:38:03,532 --> 00:38:04,192
I live in Monaco.

435
00:38:04,292 --> 00:38:05,412
It's the perfect example.

436
00:38:05,592 --> 00:38:07,132
They don't have any taxes.

437
00:38:07,132 --> 00:38:12,892
the only taxes there is 20% VAT that they have to split with the French.

438
00:38:12,892 --> 00:38:20,912
So with 10% VAT, they have the most functioning city I saw in my life.

439
00:38:21,052 --> 00:38:21,712
It's perfect.

440
00:38:22,192 --> 00:38:22,392
Yeah.

441
00:38:22,552 --> 00:38:25,272
Well, talking of functioning cities then, let's talk about Morazan.

442
00:38:26,532 --> 00:38:33,752
And what can you tell me about the current state of play with the ZA law?

443
00:38:33,872 --> 00:38:35,632
Here's my take from, I mean,

444
00:38:35,632 --> 00:38:42,872
I'm obviously in I'm investigating on the internet but it looks like the law was rescinded

445
00:38:42,872 --> 00:38:49,372
the government were then sort of pushed into a corner to make a move because they they said right

446
00:38:49,372 --> 00:38:56,132
you're illegal and they didn't do anything and they didn't actually do anything and this suit

447
00:38:56,132 --> 00:39:01,592
that as per the agreement you had the right to then sue them for an extremely large amount of

448
00:39:01,592 --> 00:39:08,592
money all the ZAs could and that was part of the backup plan if this ever happened which went into

449
00:39:08,592 --> 00:39:17,472
effect and now I'm told that politically the consensus there are there the the the the politicians

450
00:39:17,472 --> 00:39:25,432
that were saying we're going to shut down the ZAs are now saying we've beaten the ZAs and what they

451
00:39:25,432 --> 00:39:27,372
mean is there's no new ZAs coming

452
00:39:27,372 --> 00:39:29,512
online, which is true

453
00:39:29,512 --> 00:39:31,572
but the ZAs that exist

454
00:39:31,572 --> 00:39:33,472
are basically, looks like you're

455
00:39:33,472 --> 00:39:35,532
going to survive. So we have to unpack

456
00:39:35,532 --> 00:39:37,192
this. Regarding your

457
00:39:37,192 --> 00:39:39,172
first question, why they

458
00:39:39,172 --> 00:39:41,312
are us, prosper

459
00:39:41,312 --> 00:39:43,172
much more than us, it's

460
00:39:43,172 --> 00:39:45,512
I believe, first of all, because

461
00:39:45,512 --> 00:39:46,592
they're much more visible

462
00:39:46,592 --> 00:39:48,692
but also because

463
00:39:48,692 --> 00:39:51,272
they have a few

464
00:39:51,272 --> 00:39:53,232
person in crawfish

465
00:39:53,232 --> 00:39:55,372
rock that have an incentive

466
00:39:55,372 --> 00:40:00,092
because they are receiving money, but not from the government necessarily,

467
00:40:00,092 --> 00:40:07,432
from international stupid ONG to harass Prospera.

468
00:40:07,492 --> 00:40:08,972
We don't have anybody like this.

469
00:40:09,232 --> 00:40:13,932
At the beginning, they thought we were going to expropriate because of all the lies,

470
00:40:14,052 --> 00:40:15,612
but now they don't care.

471
00:40:16,072 --> 00:40:19,192
Many works in Sudamora San.

472
00:40:19,732 --> 00:40:24,092
So we don't have any group of people that really want...

473
00:40:24,092 --> 00:40:30,872
as an incentive to keep, you know, motoring every day.

474
00:40:33,352 --> 00:40:44,332
The government itself, it's like it's afraid of moving.

475
00:40:45,352 --> 00:40:50,892
And so in our case, the only thing it did, which is important,

476
00:40:50,892 --> 00:40:53,552
is to take out the custom office.

477
00:40:54,632 --> 00:40:59,652
And I understand that they did the same with Prospera,

478
00:40:59,812 --> 00:41:02,212
but they didn't do it with Orchidia,

479
00:41:02,332 --> 00:41:03,872
because if they did with Orchidia,

480
00:41:03,972 --> 00:41:05,192
there is a revolution there,

481
00:41:05,272 --> 00:41:07,312
because all the city of San Marcos de Colón

482
00:41:07,312 --> 00:41:11,592
lives because of Orchidia.

483
00:41:13,772 --> 00:41:19,892
And it's like they think that we get a better opportunity

484
00:41:19,892 --> 00:41:28,652
opportunity of getting more money if they come to us. I don't think there is any difference.

485
00:41:28,652 --> 00:41:51,550
So they basically left us alone Now with the election of course they have to say something because people ask they kind of stupid also because they said if the opposition arrive they will let the ZD work

486
00:41:51,770 --> 00:41:59,990
But, I mean, you just said that you eliminated the ZD for good with the decision of the Constitutional Court.

487
00:42:00,090 --> 00:42:03,370
And now you say that they have to vote for you to avoid the ZD.

488
00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:06,290
I mean, it's strange.

489
00:42:06,450 --> 00:42:07,930
But they are starting to use it.

490
00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:14,730
You know, the election is going to be in 29 days, the 29th of November.

491
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:21,250
So now it's a very hot moment in politics there.

492
00:42:22,270 --> 00:42:28,570
And so in the last few weeks, there is a little bit more talk about the ZD.

493
00:42:28,570 --> 00:42:41,950
And also the decision of the Supreme Court came the week after the famous video of Carlos Zelaya surfaced.

494
00:42:42,070 --> 00:42:45,690
I don't know if you know all this inside baseball of Honduras.

495
00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:54,930
There was the brother of Mel Zelaya, which is the husband of Osomar Zelaya, the president, and Mel is the boss.

496
00:42:54,930 --> 00:42:58,110
Carlos Zelaya is a famous

497
00:42:58,110 --> 00:42:59,950
Narcotrafficker, everybody knows

498
00:42:59,950 --> 00:43:01,110
He's a narcotrafficker

499
00:43:01,110 --> 00:43:02,590
They're related

500
00:43:02,590 --> 00:43:04,450
He's the brother of men

501
00:43:04,450 --> 00:43:05,270
Really?

502
00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:07,870
Carlos Zelaya

503
00:43:07,870 --> 00:43:10,130
And he was

504
00:43:10,130 --> 00:43:13,430
The vice president of the Congress

505
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:15,370
Because he's in the

506
00:43:15,370 --> 00:43:16,350
You know

507
00:43:16,350 --> 00:43:19,790
After his brother

508
00:43:19,790 --> 00:43:21,890
And they caught him

509
00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:23,090
Well they caught him

510
00:43:23,090 --> 00:43:32,730
probably the American let out a video in which is with three famous

511
00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:38,770
narcotraffickers that now they are in jail forever in the US in which this guy

512
00:43:38,770 --> 00:43:46,370
were giving him money and so there was a moment in which there was a lot of

513
00:43:46,370 --> 00:43:52,390
attacks in the press everywhere again because they did the attorney general

514
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:54,850
which is a person of them, didn't do anything.

515
00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:59,190
And so there was a lot of pressure of civil society.

516
00:43:59,850 --> 00:44:05,090
And so mysteriously, the constitutional court

517
00:44:05,090 --> 00:44:09,010
that had three years to decide, decided in that week.

518
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:17,890
They had to divert, to bring a new different cycle of news.

519
00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:19,050
Sorry, interrupt you.

520
00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:20,530
No, no, I was about to interrupt you.

521
00:44:20,530 --> 00:44:26,070
Sorry, I just got to get this straight. I don't know who these people are and how they're related to each other

522
00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:28,330
the

523
00:44:28,330 --> 00:44:34,170
What the guys you would then the narco guys and then they can this story you're just telling

524
00:44:34,850 --> 00:44:37,290
Explain again who that was in the political sense

525
00:44:37,850 --> 00:44:42,990
Carlos Zelaya is the older brother of Mel Zelaya

526
00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:49,350
Mel Zelaya is the one that was president at 12 years ago and right

527
00:44:49,350 --> 00:44:53,310
Right. But he's not running again in the new elections, right?

528
00:44:53,550 --> 00:44:54,150
Mel Zelaya.

529
00:44:54,330 --> 00:44:54,490
Yeah.

530
00:44:54,670 --> 00:45:02,130
No, because there is still the article in the Constitution that says that a president cannot be re-elected.

531
00:45:02,130 --> 00:45:12,330
Right. So that has a negative impact on the ZAs because his brother was the guy that basically was in power when the law was created.

532
00:45:12,330 --> 00:45:14,450
I don't think the ZA has nothing to do with that.

533
00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:21,630
I mean, the video that surfaced, I think it had a very bad impact on them, on the Partito

534
00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:22,630
Libre.

535
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:26,770
And so they needed a new cycle of news.

536
00:45:26,770 --> 00:45:32,870
And so they called because they packed the cold in a disgusting way.

537
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:40,930
So they, you know, like the meme that says, the one of the meme that says,

538
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:46,470
release the bomb or release a new news to make.

539
00:45:47,690 --> 00:45:49,050
Keep everyone watching.

540
00:45:49,050 --> 00:45:49,930
Yeah.

541
00:45:50,750 --> 00:45:59,290
And because there was no reason to decide in that moment for the Constitutional Court.

542
00:45:59,290 --> 00:46:10,330
So, and is there any relationship between the current opposition, who seem to be doing quite well, and this government?

543
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:18,810
Are they, this former government, are they, is that going to have any effect on them and on their ability to win the next election?

544
00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:27,030
There is a relationship between the Liberal Party, the National Party, with the Libre,

545
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:29,030
with the party in government.

546
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:38,710
Well, first of all, there is always relationship because these guys are the same political economic

547
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:40,710
elite.

548
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:42,990
They're mixed up.

549
00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:49,550
But of course we are under election and now it's getting very hot.

550
00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:53,110
I mean there are something that is dangerous.

551
00:46:53,110 --> 00:47:03,270
The head of the UNFORCE asked to get the result of the election before it's published.

552
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:07,710
He said according to the Constitution it's completely smoking because the Constitution

553
00:47:07,710 --> 00:47:09,710
doesn't say it.

554
00:47:09,710 --> 00:47:12,750
Why?

555
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:22,070
There are many theories. I think it's actually a good sign because I think Libre asked him

556
00:47:22,070 --> 00:47:36,230
to defend. He's a man of the current government of Libre. And I think he has been asked to

557
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:46,470
defend fraud and in the army there are lower levels, at the level of coronel or so, that are

558
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:55,190
clearly not going to do that. So this guy Roosevelt, as his name, wants to have the real result

559
00:47:56,230 --> 00:48:03,670
in order if he has to intervene, and will probably be the need to intervene because somebody will

560
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:12,050
come in the street, he can show the guys, his people, the ones that go hitting in the

561
00:48:12,050 --> 00:48:17,010
head the protesters or even shooting, that the real results are that.

562
00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:18,650
I think this is the only reason.

563
00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:26,070
There are other theories, but when you see the politics of Honduras, it's like when you

564
00:48:26,070 --> 00:48:31,890
read the Sasha, it's an old Italian writer.

565
00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:40,710
is like it appears there are a lot of last time we spoke you said that you'd stopped building

566
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:47,650
you'd you'd stop the industry was moving out i think at the time what's the current state of

567
00:48:47,650 --> 00:48:57,490
no we we built since then uh industry left the because it's simple i mean these guys

568
00:48:57,490 --> 00:49:00,190
sell stuff in Honduras

569
00:49:00,190 --> 00:49:02,030
or export and they

570
00:49:02,030 --> 00:49:04,130
are at the mercy of

571
00:49:04,130 --> 00:49:06,090
the government so they could not stay

572
00:49:06,090 --> 00:49:07,990
there. They left. Now the

573
00:49:07,990 --> 00:49:09,850
industrial space is completely

574
00:49:09,850 --> 00:49:11,950
rented but it's

575
00:49:11,950 --> 00:49:13,290
rented as a warehouse

576
00:49:13,290 --> 00:49:15,430
of a company outside

577
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:17,890
so they don't have

578
00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:19,970
workers. Their workers are

579
00:49:19,970 --> 00:49:21,790
not inside because if they are inside

580
00:49:21,790 --> 00:49:23,930
they have to follow our labor

581
00:49:23,930 --> 00:49:25,830
law and if they follow our

582
00:49:25,830 --> 00:49:32,070
they are afraid that the government will go against them.

583
00:49:32,070 --> 00:49:37,830
So, yes, we have been building, but the original budget,

584
00:49:37,830 --> 00:49:42,150
the one that we were executing, I mean, we've been unlucky

585
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:46,070
because we got the charter in December 2020.

586
00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:51,030
And the objective was to spend 150 million in three years

587
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:54,070
to complete the community.

588
00:49:54,070 --> 00:50:09,328
But then arrived COVID in March just three months after And yes we could work but everything was slow So we could probably do in that year one fifth of what we were supposed to do

589
00:50:09,968 --> 00:50:17,448
And then in November 21, this guy won, the Libre won.

590
00:50:17,928 --> 00:50:21,848
And so we didn't build much.

591
00:50:21,848 --> 00:50:27,828
At that point, I decided not to build anymore to see what was happening.

592
00:50:28,628 --> 00:50:30,408
But there is a lot of enthusiasm.

593
00:50:30,648 --> 00:50:38,348
When I go there, I see all this guy that says, my tenants, I live very well here.

594
00:50:38,468 --> 00:50:40,608
Why don't you build other houses?

595
00:50:41,568 --> 00:50:43,848
My mother wants to come here.

596
00:50:43,848 --> 00:50:57,848
and a big school outside arrived, asked us to come to Ciudad Morassan because it's safe.

597
00:50:57,848 --> 00:51:04,848
And we are now building the building of the school, because before we had only 25 kids

598
00:51:04,848 --> 00:51:11,848
or something like that, so they were inside houses. We didn't need a building.

599
00:51:11,848 --> 00:51:16,628
This school already has 250 kids apart of our 25.

600
00:51:16,908 --> 00:51:19,908
So we have to build and rent something for them.

601
00:51:20,328 --> 00:51:21,988
So there is all this enthusiasm.

602
00:51:22,548 --> 00:51:26,008
And so I'm probably investing $2 or $3 million per year,

603
00:51:26,088 --> 00:51:28,528
no more than that, just to keep the ball rolling.

604
00:51:28,528 --> 00:51:30,368
It's nothing to do with the original.

605
00:51:31,428 --> 00:51:34,228
I mean, $50 million per year in Honduras,

606
00:51:34,408 --> 00:51:36,748
you will see thousands of people working there.

607
00:51:36,868 --> 00:51:40,948
Now you see 80, 100, no more than that.

608
00:51:40,948 --> 00:51:51,708
it's small constructions so if so you're building again but but um tentatively and is that residential

609
00:51:51,708 --> 00:52:01,128
yes what since the last time we talked we finished 44 houses the new block of 44 houses

610
00:52:01,128 --> 00:52:09,988
the townhouse like before we just finished one month ago the or two months ago the building with

611
00:52:09,988 --> 00:52:15,148
70 studios and seven commercial spaces.

612
00:52:15,148 --> 00:52:20,828
And we wanted to build something not really industrial, logistical,

613
00:52:20,828 --> 00:52:29,188
like small warehouses, like the one in the US.

614
00:52:29,188 --> 00:52:30,628
But then the school arrived.

615
00:52:30,628 --> 00:52:35,108
So we have only one group of people that build.

616
00:52:35,108 --> 00:52:38,108
So we diverted the people to the school

617
00:52:38,108 --> 00:52:39,748
because in February they start,

618
00:52:40,228 --> 00:52:44,248
and the school in Honduras start in February

619
00:52:44,248 --> 00:52:45,548
and finish in November.

620
00:52:45,828 --> 00:52:49,168
So there are 250 people coming in,

621
00:52:49,228 --> 00:52:50,448
and I have to find a place.

622
00:52:51,048 --> 00:52:55,988
But on the 29th of November, when the election happens,

623
00:52:55,988 --> 00:53:02,268
if it goes the other way, so if it goes to the right,

624
00:53:03,088 --> 00:53:07,108
is that a signal to you that full speed ahead again?

625
00:53:07,108 --> 00:53:16,728
No, no, because we have to reach an agreement. So let's see. And the percentage have improved, right?

626
00:53:16,948 --> 00:53:27,108
But to be able to start again, there must be a series of things. Each one is very plausible, but everything has to happen.

627
00:53:27,108 --> 00:53:36,328
So the first thing is that this government must lose. And politically, this government is at the end.

628
00:53:36,328 --> 00:53:41,608
I don't believe there is more than 20% of people that would vote Libre.

629
00:53:42,168 --> 00:53:45,968
But unfortunately, the opposition didn't go with a single ticket.

630
00:53:46,648 --> 00:53:51,128
In Honduras, there is no second round.

631
00:53:51,928 --> 00:53:55,528
So if they do some fraud, I mean, fraud is possible.

632
00:53:57,208 --> 00:54:06,268
5%, maybe 10%, or you go to the fraud like the one of Maduro in Venezuela.

633
00:54:06,328 --> 00:54:12,808
But this was not even fraud, it was just fake, the results that he said.

634
00:54:12,808 --> 00:54:20,968
And there is no way the Americans would allow something like happening in Venezuela.

635
00:54:20,968 --> 00:54:25,208
But they can still 5, 6, 7, I don't know.

636
00:54:25,208 --> 00:54:28,648
Because in that case, you do it at the ballot.

637
00:54:28,648 --> 00:54:35,568
You basically pay money to the representative of the other party.

638
00:54:35,568 --> 00:54:38,328
and so they change the count.

639
00:54:42,108 --> 00:54:46,608
If the opposition would go together,

640
00:54:46,988 --> 00:54:50,028
there was no way Libre would have won.

641
00:54:50,248 --> 00:54:53,928
But in this case, if the opposition is going separated,

642
00:54:54,168 --> 00:54:55,968
you can win with a plurality.

643
00:54:57,088 --> 00:54:59,868
Still, I think Libre will lose.

644
00:55:00,068 --> 00:55:03,868
Let's say that there is 80% possibility that the opposition wins.

645
00:55:03,868 --> 00:55:07,068
but even if the opposition wins

646
00:55:07,068 --> 00:55:09,468
we have to reach an agreement

647
00:55:09,468 --> 00:55:14,868
and the well is poisoned

648
00:55:14,868 --> 00:55:17,008
and so even the opposition

649
00:55:17,008 --> 00:55:20,468
doesn't want to again take

650
00:55:20,468 --> 00:55:22,248
at the end of the day

651
00:55:22,248 --> 00:55:27,368
Libre with the calling the Supreme Court

652
00:55:27,368 --> 00:55:29,648
resolved the problem for them

653
00:55:29,648 --> 00:55:33,308
so for them to proactively

654
00:55:33,308 --> 00:55:42,688
go back to this issue, can happen only if Prospera wins something they cannot pay.

655
00:55:43,728 --> 00:55:50,968
Which I, my estimate, if it's more than $500 million,

656
00:55:51,328 --> 00:55:55,828
probably they do not have the money to pay and they will try to get an agreement.

657
00:55:56,308 --> 00:55:59,868
But would they pay even if it was $250 million? Would they actually pay that?

658
00:55:59,868 --> 00:56:06,328
Well, they have to pay because 10% of the GDP of Honduras is international cooperation.

659
00:56:06,908 --> 00:56:13,128
Technically, international cooperation, at least 50% of it, is not a gift.

660
00:56:13,388 --> 00:56:14,148
It's a loan.

661
00:56:14,728 --> 00:56:17,708
Yeah, but we're talking about governments here, Central American ones as well.

662
00:56:17,788 --> 00:56:21,408
They don't keep their promises often, do they?

663
00:56:21,408 --> 00:56:42,188
No, but if they don't pay arbitration of the CIADI, of the ICSID, the worldwide cooperation, most of it, technically cannot give money to Honduras.

664
00:56:42,188 --> 00:56:47,448
The money of the cooperation is 10% of the GDP of Honduras.

665
00:56:47,668 --> 00:56:50,588
It's $2,500 million per year.

666
00:56:51,408 --> 00:56:58,308
And given that most of it is theoretically loans, everybody knows that these loans will

667
00:56:58,308 --> 00:56:59,788
never be paid, right?

668
00:56:59,788 --> 00:57:06,228
But they are technically loans and they are prevented to make loans to people that it's

669
00:57:06,228 --> 00:57:08,988
a dead pit at the SIAD, at the ICSID.

670
00:57:08,988 --> 00:57:12,168
So they cannot not pay.

671
00:57:12,168 --> 00:57:14,548
That's impossible.

672
00:57:14,548 --> 00:57:21,088
If they don't have the money to pay, they have to reach an agreement.

673
00:57:21,088 --> 00:57:31,648
So the first thing is that I'm sure Prosper, I'm sure we will win, but it must be big enough

674
00:57:31,648 --> 00:57:34,148
to make the government move.

675
00:57:34,148 --> 00:57:41,708
And I estimate that this is maybe 500 million, because it also gives a political cover to

676
00:57:41,708 --> 00:57:43,268
the guy of the opposition.

677
00:57:43,268 --> 00:57:54,288
Look, I am against the ZD myself, but if I pay $1 billion, we are basically bankrupt.

678
00:57:54,288 --> 00:57:57,608
So I'm trying to fix the problem.

679
00:57:57,608 --> 00:58:04,268
The good thing is that I'm going to fix with these three ZDs and we won't have other ZDs.

680
00:58:04,268 --> 00:58:08,848
I mean, it gives a good political cover.

681
00:58:08,848 --> 00:58:12,968
Now I don't know what will be the money given to Prospera.

682
00:58:12,968 --> 00:58:25,146
I talking about Prospera because we compared to Prospera small mosquitoes right But Prospera is coming with something big By the way you probably know that they brought back from 10 to 1

683
00:58:25,766 --> 00:58:26,906
You heard it, right?

684
00:58:26,906 --> 00:58:31,206
The famous 10.7 that they asked two weeks ago,

685
00:58:31,326 --> 00:58:34,906
they said that they reduced it to 1.7 billion.

686
00:58:35,346 --> 00:58:36,306
I really don't know why.

687
00:58:36,486 --> 00:58:40,626
Also because we are close to the election.

688
00:58:41,246 --> 00:58:43,586
It's not nice for us,

689
00:58:43,586 --> 00:58:45,386
but they must have

690
00:58:45,386 --> 00:58:47,466
the reason. But Prosper did that themselves

691
00:58:47,466 --> 00:58:50,806
Yes I understand

692
00:58:50,806 --> 00:58:53,146
so in the Sioux now Prospera

693
00:58:53,146 --> 00:58:54,786
is asking not for

694
00:58:54,786 --> 00:58:56,866
10.7 which frankly

695
00:58:56,866 --> 00:58:59,026
between us was a ridiculous amount

696
00:58:59,026 --> 00:59:01,466
but it's asking for 1.7

697
00:59:01,466 --> 00:59:02,806
which is still a lot of money

698
00:59:02,806 --> 00:59:04,486
Well maybe that was a PR thing

699
00:59:04,486 --> 00:59:07,106
because there was a little bit of a backlash

700
00:59:07,106 --> 00:59:07,786
wasn't there?

701
00:59:08,386 --> 00:59:10,566
It doesn't necessarily make

702
00:59:10,566 --> 00:59:12,966
Why do it one month

703
00:59:12,966 --> 00:59:15,846
before the election. I don't understand.

704
00:59:15,846 --> 00:59:17,286
Yeah, pass. I don't know.

705
00:59:17,286 --> 00:59:23,126
There's something that they know. I don't know. But anyway, 1.7 is still a lot of money.

706
00:59:23,126 --> 00:59:29,686
They actually spent 250 million. Now, you know that the exit doesn't look what you spent,

707
00:59:29,686 --> 00:59:37,206
but the NPV of future flow. But at the very minimum, I assume they have to give back what they

708
00:59:37,206 --> 00:59:46,046
they spent. So it should be between, at this moment, I guess it's between 250 and theoretically

709
00:59:46,046 --> 00:59:52,966
1.7. But I hope it's going to be like 1 billion, right? So in this case, the government has

710
00:59:52,966 --> 01:00:01,726
to. But what are the possibilities of 1 billion? I have no idea. Let's say 50%. So we had

711
01:00:01,726 --> 01:00:06,726
The first thing Libre has to lose, 80%, and then 50%.

712
01:00:06,726 --> 01:00:09,846
So the possibility of 40% now.

713
01:00:09,846 --> 01:00:14,666
At this point, okay, there is the interest of the government to reach an agreement, but

714
01:00:14,666 --> 01:00:17,646
they actually have to reach an agreement with Prospera.

715
01:00:17,646 --> 01:00:23,486
And we have nothing to say here because the level of autonomy that Prospera needs is much,

716
01:00:23,486 --> 01:00:26,066
much higher than the one we need.

717
01:00:26,066 --> 01:00:29,566
So whatever is good for Prospera, it's good for us.

718
01:00:29,566 --> 01:00:36,506
On the other hand, the government will never reach an agreement with us and not Prospera.

719
01:00:36,506 --> 01:00:38,326
If they reach an agreement, it's for the two.

720
01:00:38,326 --> 01:00:42,106
So basically, I'm out of the negotiation because I don't count anything.

721
01:00:42,106 --> 01:00:45,286
It's Prospera and the government.

722
01:00:45,286 --> 01:00:50,366
And so what is the possibility they reach an agreement?

723
01:00:50,366 --> 01:00:54,466
Prospera really needs a pretty strong autonomy.

724
01:00:54,466 --> 01:00:57,766
Eric is a tough negotiator, by the way.

725
01:00:59,686 --> 01:01:01,266
Sometimes I think too tough.

726
01:01:01,826 --> 01:01:07,646
And there are things that are very difficult to accept for the government.

727
01:01:08,406 --> 01:01:11,246
So how many possibilities do they reach an agreement?

728
01:01:11,426 --> 01:01:18,966
There is also the possibility that maybe Prospera finds something in Africa

729
01:01:18,966 --> 01:01:21,966
and says, give me the money, give me the $800 million.

730
01:01:22,526 --> 01:01:23,046
Fuck you.

731
01:01:23,046 --> 01:01:27,326
I mean, I tried to do it, but I'm going there now.

732
01:01:28,406 --> 01:01:38,766
So again, I don't know how to give this possibility, but let's say another 50% that if the government has intention to reach an agreement, they actually reach an agreement.

733
01:01:39,126 --> 01:01:45,326
So the 40% that we were, it's going to be 20% because these things are sequential, right?

734
01:01:46,226 --> 01:01:51,126
So even if the possibilities are still very low.

735
01:01:51,126 --> 01:01:55,646
I estimated close to 10% last year.

736
01:01:57,046 --> 01:02:02,426
And what I think it changed is the possibility of Libre going down a lot

737
01:02:02,426 --> 01:02:05,366
to no more than 20%.

738
01:02:05,366 --> 01:02:09,206
And the possibility of reaching an agreement

739
01:02:09,206 --> 01:02:16,946
if there is a strong decision of the exit

740
01:02:16,946 --> 01:02:19,166
increased a little bit

741
01:02:19,166 --> 01:02:21,326
because I see that

742
01:02:21,326 --> 01:02:22,986
many people in Honduras

743
01:02:22,986 --> 01:02:24,126
not only in Choloma

744
01:02:24,126 --> 01:02:28,086
start to question the narrative

745
01:02:28,086 --> 01:02:29,166
start to say

746
01:02:29,166 --> 01:02:31,946
I mean, say the only thing

747
01:02:31,946 --> 01:02:34,106
that brought is work

748
01:02:34,106 --> 01:02:35,346
work especially

749
01:02:35,346 --> 01:02:38,126
not in Prosper and not with us

750
01:02:38,126 --> 01:02:40,346
but in Orkidia

751
01:02:40,346 --> 01:02:42,766
place where to live

752
01:02:42,766 --> 01:02:44,926
which is our case

753
01:02:44,926 --> 01:02:51,546
and a lot of exposure with important people

754
01:02:51,546 --> 01:02:54,186
and even celebrities with Prospera.

755
01:02:54,366 --> 01:02:57,666
I mean, people with tens of billions of dollars

756
01:02:57,666 --> 01:02:58,586
came to Prospera.

757
01:02:58,646 --> 01:02:59,626
You know who they came.

758
01:02:59,826 --> 01:03:02,446
Even the Kardashian came.

759
01:03:03,446 --> 01:03:06,006
So, yeah, one of the Kardashians.

760
01:03:06,006 --> 01:03:07,226
I think the fat one came.

761
01:03:07,386 --> 01:03:08,266
One of the three.

762
01:03:08,306 --> 01:03:09,266
I don't know that.

763
01:03:09,266 --> 01:03:11,166
I know the tech guys that came and stuff.

764
01:03:12,006 --> 01:03:14,886
Yes, but so the people in...

765
01:03:14,886 --> 01:03:20,066
Well, for the Kardashians, for the day-to-day people, the population in Honduras is more

766
01:03:20,066 --> 01:03:22,666
important than Tim Draper, definitely.

767
01:03:22,666 --> 01:03:26,046
So they say, fuck it, this thing is working.

768
01:03:26,046 --> 01:03:29,826
And they basically are not doing anything bad.

769
01:03:29,826 --> 01:03:31,966
After four years, I don't see anything bad.

770
01:03:31,966 --> 01:03:36,966
So a lot of people are starting to question the narrative.

771
01:03:36,966 --> 01:03:43,786
Not enough, but maybe it will help the politician to do something more to make a Prospera happy.

772
01:03:43,786 --> 01:04:02,386
Are you saying that according to the litigation, according to the suing part of this deal, will nobody ever agree on just dropping that if they just say, look, you know, they re-resinned the law or something like that?

773
01:04:02,426 --> 01:04:03,526
Or is that just never going to happen?

774
01:04:03,886 --> 01:04:12,406
Does it have to go down the route of suing the government, even if the new government get in and they kind of and they obviously kind of pro-ZEA?

775
01:04:12,406 --> 01:04:14,406
Look, I mean, we are in Honduras.

776
01:04:14,866 --> 01:04:23,286
So, in theory, the finding of the Supreme Court cannot be changed.

777
01:04:24,046 --> 01:04:27,006
So, in theory, we do not exist.

778
01:04:27,566 --> 01:04:31,846
If they want to bring again the Z, they have to do a new law.

779
01:04:32,126 --> 01:04:33,166
There is no other way.

780
01:04:33,966 --> 01:04:35,526
So, they will negotiate.

781
01:04:35,526 --> 01:04:42,806
Now, being Honduras, they can even say the next constitutional court that the

782
01:04:42,806 --> 01:04:48,426
previous constitutional finding was anti-constitutional. No, no, I saw things

783
01:04:48,426 --> 01:04:57,306
more radical than this. So I don't know, they might find a way of inventing that

784
01:04:57,306 --> 01:05:04,146
in that case the Constitution. I mean, just to understand the enormity of

785
01:05:04,146 --> 01:05:09,566
the finding of the Constitutional Court. The head of the Constitutional Court is a lady

786
01:05:09,566 --> 01:05:18,546
whose book is the Constitutional book in the university and it's written that the decision

787
01:05:18,546 --> 01:05:24,866
of the Supreme Court cannot be exalted. And it's written in the Constitution that cannot

788
01:05:24,866 --> 01:05:30,186
be exalted. And they do it, and I don't know if they wrote it in the finding, I think they

789
01:05:30,186 --> 01:05:36,406
wrote even in the finding, but definitely they said in an interview, yes, the Constitution

790
01:05:36,406 --> 01:05:43,826
impede us to take a decision ex ante, but this was so grave that we decided to take an

791
01:05:43,826 --> 01:05:45,706
ex ante definition.

792
01:05:45,706 --> 01:05:47,846
I mean, this is the level.

793
01:05:47,846 --> 01:05:57,686
We decided that we, the guardian of the Constitution, we decided that the Constitution do not apply.

794
01:05:57,686 --> 01:06:05,066
So I mean, in Honduras, the Constitutional Court is political.

795
01:06:05,066 --> 01:06:10,806
The problem is the Constitutional Court changes every seven years, so they will still have

796
01:06:10,806 --> 01:06:13,446
like three years.

797
01:06:13,446 --> 01:06:20,606
On the other end, the Constitutional Court members have a tendency of changing political

798
01:06:20,606 --> 01:06:26,246
tendency when there is another guy in power.

799
01:06:26,246 --> 01:06:34,366
And there is also the possibility of taking out, I mean, to create a crisis and to nominate

800
01:06:34,366 --> 01:06:36,406
a new constitutional court.

801
01:06:36,406 --> 01:06:38,126
So everything can happen.

802
01:06:38,126 --> 01:06:39,966
So what do you, so, all right.

803
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:48,724
up in a sec, but what, what are you, you yourself, you know, Massimo, what are you preparing for?

804
01:06:49,004 --> 01:06:54,664
Like you say you're starting building again, tentatively. Is that, is that for the foreseeable

805
01:06:54,664 --> 01:07:01,304
future? Is that what you're going to keep doing? Let's see what happened now.

806
01:07:01,304 --> 01:07:11,744
at the end now it's becoming a charity because given that I don't have the the

807
01:07:11,744 --> 01:07:18,044
seventy thousand dollar of taxes that I had when for more than one year I have

808
01:07:18,044 --> 01:07:25,484
to put some money if I have the rent but with the public service I'm putting

809
01:07:25,484 --> 01:07:32,044
like 25-30 thousand dollars every month. So there will be one day that I have to stop

810
01:07:32,044 --> 01:07:40,104
this. But this is the most important project to my art that I have. So it's very difficult

811
01:07:40,104 --> 01:07:49,764
for me to cut. So I will see. Now in one month, let's see if the government is kicked off.

812
01:07:49,764 --> 01:07:55,044
And if the new guy comes, I will probably wait for one or two years if they reach an

813
01:07:55,044 --> 01:08:05,164
agreement we see well that's i'm i'm going to take that as a positive i think that's pretty positive

814
01:08:05,164 --> 01:08:10,504
i honestly don't believe you'll ever stop doing it to be honest massimo i think you can say that

815
01:08:10,504 --> 01:08:15,564
now but i think when it comes to it when you're at a town hall meeting and you can see all those

816
01:08:15,564 --> 01:08:20,364
people in front of you i don't think you'll ever give it up yeah but you have to consider that i am

817
01:08:20,364 --> 01:08:26,704
really a libertarian and I believe that destroying money it's actually a negative for society.

818
01:08:27,164 --> 01:08:32,364
I don't have anything against charity but charity is sterile. I mean when the person that put the

819
01:08:32,364 --> 01:08:40,304
money dies or is not interested anymore the initiative is killed. If you invent a new business

820
01:08:40,304 --> 01:08:46,924
model like we I don't know if we invented already existed but our business model was working so

821
01:08:46,924 --> 01:08:51,744
So when it works, not only you can grow with the flow that it creates,

822
01:08:51,904 --> 01:08:53,404
but other people copy you.

823
01:08:53,624 --> 01:08:56,064
So there is an entire new industry.

824
01:08:57,104 --> 01:08:59,104
And this makes me proud.

825
01:08:59,484 --> 01:09:03,804
I mean, yes, there is, in a libertarian logic,

826
01:09:04,464 --> 01:09:08,724
there is the beauty of the market working,

827
01:09:08,724 --> 01:09:10,424
not even the money that you make,

828
01:09:10,584 --> 01:09:15,924
but you are creating almost in a prometheus sense.

829
01:09:15,924 --> 01:09:18,924
You're creating something new from...

830
01:09:18,924 --> 01:09:22,164
But you can do it when you make money.

831
01:09:22,344 --> 01:09:25,604
If you don't make money, you're actually destroying wealth.

832
01:09:26,704 --> 01:09:32,964
And also, yes, the eyes of the kids that play safe in the night,

833
01:09:33,264 --> 01:09:35,304
it's very nice.

834
01:09:35,564 --> 01:09:37,524
And there is the profit if you make profit.

835
01:09:37,664 --> 01:09:41,204
There are all reasons why an entrepreneur does this.

836
01:09:41,204 --> 01:09:50,204
But starting to lose money and sending the money there is really against my deep belief.

837
01:09:50,204 --> 01:10:06,702
Because I believe it a form of destruction of money Frankly it not much for me the It really doesn change the needle But it ideological against everything in me to lose money

838
01:10:07,042 --> 01:10:08,162
Would you do another one then?

839
01:10:08,942 --> 01:10:11,262
Would you take it to another country if an opportunity arose?

840
01:10:11,262 --> 01:10:12,162
I've been asked.

841
01:10:12,582 --> 01:10:14,662
I am 60, Tim.

842
01:10:15,642 --> 01:10:16,982
I'm kind of tired.

843
01:10:17,122 --> 01:10:19,242
These things need decayed.

844
01:10:19,242 --> 01:10:25,362
Even with Sudamora San, I knew I could have brought it maybe to 50,000 people and then

845
01:10:25,362 --> 01:10:29,282
maybe somebody else in 50 years would have completed.

846
01:10:30,922 --> 01:10:36,482
Now, it's not only, it's first of all a question of age.

847
01:10:36,682 --> 01:10:39,322
Second, it's a question of geography.

848
01:10:39,542 --> 01:10:42,802
Honduras, I spent 20 years of my life in Honduras.

849
01:10:42,802 --> 01:10:48,782
I mean, if I have an opportunity to do it in, say, Tanzania, I don't know shit about Tanzania.

850
01:10:49,242 --> 01:10:52,402
I go there at 60 years old and I start to build.

851
01:10:53,962 --> 01:10:57,922
Surely I will invest money with some entrepreneur

852
01:10:57,922 --> 01:11:00,222
that will do things like this,

853
01:11:00,322 --> 01:11:03,542
but I most likely will not be the entrepreneur.

854
01:11:05,982 --> 01:11:10,002
Well, let's stay positive then.

855
01:11:10,862 --> 01:11:12,602
Let's end on a positive one.

856
01:11:13,082 --> 01:11:17,342
Yeah, but we are positive at the beginning.

857
01:11:17,342 --> 01:11:24,442
there are so many things that something will happen yeah but massimo i'm positive i've got

858
01:11:24,442 --> 01:11:32,082
the luxury of observing more than it being involved i love i i'm involved as much as i can

859
01:11:32,082 --> 01:11:38,402
but there's a limit my my strengths are in you know putting the message out often and things

860
01:11:38,402 --> 01:11:43,802
like that i'd love to be involved in different ways but i've ended up doing this in in this

861
01:11:43,802 --> 01:11:50,462
movement and I love it and it's very important as well but it does give me the luxury of being

862
01:11:50,462 --> 01:11:57,282
somewhat um disconnected from the actual day-to-day bullshit that you have to deal with which is what

863
01:11:57,282 --> 01:12:03,062
you're describing here and and I have I have other parts of my life that have drudgery and bullshit

864
01:12:03,062 --> 01:12:09,862
as well and I don't like them and I come here for the refuge you know but if this place is the place

865
01:12:09,862 --> 01:12:14,002
that you try to run away from because there's a lot of bullshit and a lot of this and a lot of

866
01:12:14,002 --> 01:12:19,362
socialism and a lot then yeah i mean i i don't know how these things operate i don't know what

867
01:12:19,362 --> 01:12:27,422
the what the mechanism is um i just know that there's a lot of people who are getting turned

868
01:12:27,422 --> 01:12:35,422
on to the idea of free places in all their myriad of forms and what you're doing has been

869
01:12:35,422 --> 01:12:40,242
as one of the pioneering ones and one of the best.

870
01:12:40,802 --> 01:12:48,822
I think what I love about Morazan is it's like a really honest version

871
01:12:48,822 --> 01:12:51,042
of what we're trying to do here.

872
01:12:51,042 --> 01:12:54,982
And you were the person, Masmo, that turned me on to the idea

873
01:12:54,982 --> 01:12:57,502
that free cities are for local people.

874
01:12:57,802 --> 01:13:01,162
And I had never thought of it before until I spoke to you

875
01:13:01,162 --> 01:13:06,922
Because I came in with the kind of digital nomad, sort of prosperer, sort of, you know.

876
01:13:07,242 --> 01:13:20,540
And the truth is when you actually think about it when you go home and think about it yes you are creating free places not for libertarians just for normal people

877
01:13:20,540 --> 01:13:23,700
And I've kind of got Mark Edge to thank for that as well.

878
01:13:23,820 --> 01:13:34,440
He was, you and him together, talking to you guys separately, made me realize, yeah, libertarian utopias, in inverted commas, and I know there's no utopias,

879
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:39,900
but they're not necessarily places where loads of libertarians come.

880
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,180
They're places where normal people go looking for a better standard of living.

881
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,960
And the better standard of living is freedom.

882
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:48,880
And freedom is the thing.

883
01:13:49,140 --> 01:13:52,620
Freedom is the thing which is causing people to,

884
01:13:53,460 --> 01:13:57,740
their preference to change to saying, I want to be there, not here.

885
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:00,620
And that's what I love about what you're doing,

886
01:14:00,620 --> 01:14:03,900
because you've kind of unashamedly done that.

887
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:06,320
And you don't publicize it much.

888
01:14:06,380 --> 01:14:08,360
Very hard to find out anything about Morazan.

889
01:14:08,780 --> 01:14:13,160
If they have taped it, watch my presentation today

890
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:17,900
because 80% of the time it was Ursula, the mayor, that talked.

891
01:14:18,020 --> 01:14:19,300
And she said exactly that.

892
01:14:19,460 --> 01:14:21,160
I came with my...

893
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:24,120
She's a madre soltera, a single mother.

894
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,340
I came with my daughter to find a safe place.

895
01:14:27,580 --> 01:14:29,300
I couldn't believe it. It was so easy.

896
01:14:29,420 --> 01:14:34,180
Then I opened the cafeteria without asking for permission.

897
01:14:34,440 --> 01:14:37,520
I decided on Saturday and on Monday it was open.

898
01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:41,920
And at that point I asked around, there was Alex.

899
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:45,120
Alex is always there.

900
01:14:45,220 --> 01:14:46,620
He said, yes, we are libertarian.

901
01:14:46,860 --> 01:14:50,160
And she started to learn about libertarianism.

902
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,340
And he said, I am libertarian, she said.

903
01:14:53,340 --> 01:15:01,940
And she also started to read books and started to grow a solid doctrine behind.

904
01:15:01,940 --> 01:15:09,180
But the reason she came is that it was a nice place to live without bullshit, without the

905
01:15:09,180 --> 01:15:18,400
police that extortionate you, with the school that works and with the developer that at

906
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:23,520
the end is, if you want, the guy that put the money like the state that actually go there

907
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:30,140
and listen to things like you have to fumigate more and the day after there is a fumigation.

908
01:15:30,140 --> 01:15:34,640
Because they are customers, I have to fulfill the customer.

909
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,260
And it's exactly what you say.

910
01:15:36,260 --> 01:15:45,440
I mean, these are everyday people that find a libertarian society.

911
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:49,120
It's the best society to live.

912
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:58,020
And people that move to Choloma prefer to come to us than to go to somewhere else.

913
01:15:58,020 --> 01:16:14,260
Do you think it's important to put a name on it? You just mentioned the lady I just met recently, the one who was speaking. Ursula. Ursula, who came there basically for a better standard of living. And now she's reading, I don't know, whatever, Ayn Rand, whoever.

914
01:16:14,260 --> 01:16:17,460
Is it important to know all that?

915
01:16:17,460 --> 01:16:22,600
Does that help solidify that idea?

916
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:35,918
Or is it just like okay I like it here I going to stay here Is it important to put a name to it libertarian No So most of them they say when they know

917
01:16:36,038 --> 01:16:38,818
ah, they're libertarian, oh, good, nice thing.

918
01:16:39,538 --> 01:16:46,318
But others are more curious, like Ursula, and started to ask.

919
01:16:46,318 --> 01:16:52,738
But the effect can even be, I mean, she told you that,

920
01:16:52,738 --> 01:16:56,258
I knew about the mother because mother and father are separated,

921
01:16:56,398 --> 01:17:01,098
but she told me also the father, they were both hard libre.

922
01:17:01,378 --> 01:17:03,518
I mean, the party that is against us.

923
01:17:04,018 --> 01:17:07,318
And they said, and I was talking with them a few,

924
01:17:07,758 --> 01:17:11,078
a couple of months ago, with the mother, not with the father.

925
01:17:11,778 --> 01:17:15,778
And she told me, I will never vote again libre in my life

926
01:17:15,778 --> 01:17:18,218
because they lied to me.

927
01:17:18,438 --> 01:17:20,338
I mean, now my daughter is here.

928
01:17:20,338 --> 01:17:27,058
I come here to see my granddaughter and I realized this beautiful place that does nothing.

929
01:17:27,058 --> 01:17:30,718
I was lied and I will never vote.

930
01:17:30,718 --> 01:17:37,578
And she doesn't really even maybe, definitely shared about the word libertarianism, but she's

931
01:17:37,578 --> 01:17:41,918
not interested at all to understand what this libertarianism means.

932
01:17:41,918 --> 01:17:49,458
But the idea that this party betrayed her, it's a vote less for the son of a bitch.

933
01:17:49,458 --> 01:17:51,938
Well, look, I'm grateful for the place.

934
01:17:52,018 --> 01:17:57,298
And I think you're actually one of the best examples of this,

935
01:17:57,418 --> 01:18:00,938
specifically because of that thing.

936
01:18:01,258 --> 01:18:04,758
And I love that about it because I think amongst libertarians,

937
01:18:04,878 --> 01:18:09,058
especially Western libertarians, the idea is that, right,

938
01:18:09,098 --> 01:18:13,598
we need to get all the libertarians together and everything will be fine.

939
01:18:13,598 --> 01:18:15,178
And that's actually probably...

940
01:18:15,178 --> 01:18:18,958
It's the old Dine Rand idea of Gerd Gurch.

941
01:18:18,958 --> 01:18:23,338
the problem if you put the two libertarian together they start to fight immediately

942
01:18:23,338 --> 01:18:30,818
well look good luck with with it all obviously you don't need my luck and i don't think you'll

943
01:18:30,818 --> 01:18:36,038
ever give it up um massimo i think you'll be doing it till the day you die even if it gets

944
01:18:36,038 --> 01:18:43,378
really bad because um otherwise what's the point what's the point if you you know i i i understand

945
01:18:43,378 --> 01:18:51,138
I understand your point about it being antithetical to an ideology that destroying capital is a bad thing.

946
01:18:51,258 --> 01:18:54,518
But maybe in the longer term, it's not.

947
01:18:54,978 --> 01:18:59,118
It's more short-term destruction of capital, long-term creation of capital.

948
01:18:59,458 --> 01:18:59,998
Who knows?

949
01:19:00,158 --> 01:19:01,938
You know, the chart's up to the right.

950
01:19:02,018 --> 01:19:03,518
Anyway, thanks for coming in.

951
01:19:03,618 --> 01:19:04,318
Really appreciate it.

952
01:19:04,338 --> 01:19:04,978
I love talking to you.

953
01:19:05,018 --> 01:19:05,398
Thank you.

954
01:19:05,398 --> 01:19:09,658
I mean, coming here, we talk only to the interview.

955
01:19:09,658 --> 01:19:14,558
but really seems like seeing an old friend and catching up.

956
01:19:14,698 --> 01:19:15,578
It's beautiful.

957
01:19:15,978 --> 01:19:16,138
Good.

958
01:19:16,658 --> 01:19:16,898
Very.

959
01:19:17,018 --> 01:19:19,858
And we shared a coffee downstairs, which is very Italian.

960
01:19:19,978 --> 01:19:24,878
I know you're Honduran, but you can't take the Italy out of an Italian.

961
01:19:25,038 --> 01:19:25,778
So thanks for coming in.

962
01:19:25,938 --> 01:19:27,858
And yeah, I'll see you in another year or so.

963
01:19:28,118 --> 01:19:28,558
Thank you.

964
01:19:39,658 --> 01:19:53,618
That I would help

965
01:19:57,758 --> 01:19:59,718
and help you explain

966
01:19:59,718 --> 01:20:00,998
what the to me

967
01:20:00,998 --> 01:20:02,118
With show

968
01:20:02,118 --> 01:20:02,898
your comment

969
01:20:02,898 --> 01:20:04,498
and follow us

970
01:20:04,498 --> 01:20:06,058
Can youorthy advice

971
01:20:06,058 --> 01:20:07,318
if you want to

972
01:20:07,478 --> 01:20:08,378
write,

973
01:20:08,378 --> 01:20:09,378
You words on it

974
01:20:09,378 --> 01:20:09,638
You're the rootpay