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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast.

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My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 139 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Well, today's show is sponsored, as always, by our most fantastic supporters

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and the purveyors of the best luxury freedom-oriented communities in Latin America.

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That's right, Veritas Village Coronado in Panama, to be more specific.

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and yes i'm being specific because they have just announced a new community in panama that's the

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chirokee veritas village only a few minutes drive from the costa rica border same setup as coronado

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solar powered homes close to nature but also amenities a community of freedom lovers health

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and convenience on your doorstep there's a new hospital seven minutes away and an international

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airport 30 minutes away anyway www.ecovillages.life forward slash free cities for more info on their

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Coronado development if you're interested in the new one you'll have to send them a direct message

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through that page there's not a lot of info out there yet they are marketing it to their loyal

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customers first and it's hot off the presses anyway mention us if you have dealings with them

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many thanks okay announcement over today's show is a very unique one it is in fact the first show

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i have ever recorded that was not done in person now you know me i'm an in-person podcast nazi

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is one way you could put it i suppose always have been and i know i've broken my own rule here but

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There is a reason. Let me digress.

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Nicholas Anzinger is a Prospera resident and the co-founder of Infinita City,

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which is a science and biotech network city also based in Prospera.

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What's interesting for us, though, and the reason for this conversation in the first place,

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is that Nicholas has been at the heart of community building in Prospera for longer than anyone else I can think of.

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The story is that a few weeks ago I spoke to a gentleman by the name of Gonzalo Hall on this podcast.

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He's a digital nomad influencer who's been involved in setting up very popular nomad villages

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and who recently became aware of the Free Cities ecosystem.

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That's episode 130, by the way, titled Why Most Digital Nomads Have Never Heard of Prospera.

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yes excuse the incendiary title but it helps with clicks anyway um obviously as a new person

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in the space there is a little bit of i've just discovered free cities and i'm here to fix them

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but truthfully as a fresh face in the ecosystem with a history of community building gonzalo

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is also the perfect person to hear their opinion on what's going on and i got that in our previous

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interview when he was quite vocal about what he thought Prospera was doing wrong on the PR and

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community building side. Anyway, Nicholas got in touch after that episode and said, hey, let me tell

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you what's actually going on here. So this episode is a bit of a kind of reply to the Gonzalo Hall

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episode, but also an update on what's happening on the ground in Prospera. Obviously, with Nicholas

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residing on a tropical island in Honduras and myself in the hills of the Welsh borders. My

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Free Cities podcast budget didn't quite stretch to a Prospera trip in order to record in person.

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Yes, even with all the new paying subscribers on Fountain. I know, hard to believe, isn't it? Anyway,

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we hooked up online a few days ago and here's the lowdown and latest from Prospera from someone

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who's living there and running a successful business in what we all know as the most well-known

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free city in the world quick summary from fountain about the episode this conversation centers on

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prospera and how its community navigates public relations and skepticism particularly in response

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to criticisms by influencer consalo hall nicholas shares his journey to prospera through his ventures

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infinita vc and infinita city the discussion addresses misconceptions about prospera

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concerns about its effect on the nearby crawfish rock community and the political challenges

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related to honduras's reputation nicholas highlights efforts to build trust through

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community engagement correcting misinformation and attracting investment while positioning

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infinita as a layer two business helping prospera scale despite new backing from figures like brian

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armstrong and balaji nicholas emphasizes the long-term effort needed to build a sustainable

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and appealing community pretty much does what it says on the tin there this will be the most

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up-to-date information on prospera you'll probably get today hot off the presses or the view from the

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trenches as i like to say anyway thanks again nicholas and to my fountain subscribers helping

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to keep this content flowing you'll always be the ogs the first ones to support us regularly cb

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bullish mike matthias cousin vinnie dovidas christopher albanese many thanks for your

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support and don't forget as a subscriber which you can do via the fountain app you get early access

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to some shows like the three and a half hour epic with the extremely popular ben gunn which ran a

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couple of weeks ago and bonus episodes on the following weeks after those two part episodes

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the latest bonus episode is with gg if you know who gg is you'll know how interesting that episode

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is right time to dream about leaving your god forsaken overtaxed and overregulated life

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and move to a tropical island in Central America as you sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Nicholas Anziger.

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Yes, as I was saying, that's part of the reason why I don't like doing online interviews.

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um yeah the other reason i'm much preferring person but it's just like difficult with all

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the other stuff well yeah exactly but you see here's my theory like i say as a filmmaker is

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that um if you if you really can be bothered it does make a difference it certainly makes a

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difference to me for example if i sit down if i put some earphones in and i listen to a podcast

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that was recorded in person my experience is a thousand times better it's worth it even though

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it's an absolute ball like traveling around and doing all the lugging all your gear and stuff

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and yeah sure i could put out two episodes a week probably as well if i was doing it online but um

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i find the conversation very difficult when the person's not there i don't know how you you do all

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yours online right yeah um i i mean i wouldn't say the difference is a thousand times right i enjoy

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in person much better personally as an interviewer but the listening experience i don't know it's hard

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to say for me i listen to lots of other podcasts and i'm not sure i can tell the difference

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but it's definitely easier to organize for me to get all these interviews especially with like

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running a whole company as well yeah oh no i can definitely tell i think i don't know it's just

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even the background noise you know uh things like that matter to me and also i just find the general

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um i don't know maybe i'm probably from a different generation to you as well i think

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you're very much more of a kind of pro at that so i but you're also pro at that so i think you

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have much more of an you you look at or listen to details that i don't correct yeah anyway well

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it's good to see you anyway and i should probably give a little bit of background

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behind this um i think we did actually meet once quite a long time ago in prad adopting bitcoin

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in el salvador that's right we did we did you were just getting started with the podcast so

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really impressive how how big it's become now yeah we did funnily enough we started the we

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started in prosper that was we started with that we we sort of launched in prosper which was great really when you probably when i look back in if i still alive in another 30 years as well

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it will seem quite a monumental thing how long have you been how long have you been in prosper

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yourself in australia since 2022 right and i came there for the first time late march and i've

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basically been there since. What brought you there in 2022? I read Scott Alexander's blog post,

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right? Which was April, 2021, right? So it's the famous Bay Area blogger. He wrote an article

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called Prospectus on Prospera, which was very thorough and very interesting and stimulating.

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He highlighted everything that was interesting about Prospera and that got Prospera actually

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quite a lot of interest from investors and like myself right so that article was very important

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i think in their history and um you were you what were you doing at the time like what was it that

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you were looking for that that meant that that kind of like grabbed your attention so i was a

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nomad right so i listened to your podcast recently with gongelo right so i think there's something

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to exploring that thesis which is which i should say as well that is the whole point of this

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conversation and the reason we're actually recording it yeah like over the internet because

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we both live in very different countries and i just can't get out to see you just for one interview

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but i think it's an important conversation to have because like i was about to say earlier you're

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you're kind of responding in a way to what gonzalo was talking about which was

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so if you look back at um episode 130 if you're listening to this um gonzalo hall who's a sort of

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like a digital nomad influencer type guy had just kind of heard about prospera um and the whole free

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cities movement in general i mean he's gone he's dived feet first in now but when i had a conversation

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with him he he was he was baffled at the way that prospera was dealing with its kind of community

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and public relations and all this kind of stuff,

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which is kind of like his expertise.

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He started the first co-working space in Madeira

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and turned it into a huge project and things like that.

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And Nicholas, who's been basically living on Prospera since 2022

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and who's probably at the heart of the community on Prospera,

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I would say, sent me a message and said,

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hey, look, you know, like, let me tell you what's going on at Prospera then.

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And so this is why this conversation's happened.

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And sure, I'd love to do it in person,

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but flying out to Prospera for one interview is a little bit too above my budget.

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But anyway, so carry on. Sorry to butt in.

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Yeah, we were digital nomads at the time, and that was because of COVID.

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I met my now wife just then, basically in the first week before the lockdowns and the travel restrictions started.

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So I was on a business trip in New York in March 2020,

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and we had this like legendary 24 hour before sunrise date, very romantic. And then we went

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our separate ways. I went back to Berlin at the time when I was living and she stayed in New York

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and we planned to reunite after and book flights to London. But then all flights were canceled

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because of COVID. And we select, no, now we just met someone so special. So we said, all right,

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we're going to go to the first country to let both of us in. Right. And so we held out for like

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four and a half months, kept talking every day. And kind of one of our premises was that we wanted

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to A, see the world and B, go after our wildest and most ambitious dreams and kind of start our

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own businesses. Right. So four and a half months later, we reunited in Croatia and basically from

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then on put our lives in backpacks and were mobile. And for those two years, until we came

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to Prosper, we were kind of exploring different businesses, started different projects. And we

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were also discovering that Mexico was the ultimate travel hack because Mexico was easy to get in and

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out of. From Mexico, you can go to the United States and Europe and it was easy to get in.

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So for an American or the European, that was the ideal place. And that's where we got into

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Latin American culture. That's where we discovered just how much arbitrage there is when you earn

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sort of a Western salary in dollars and then live in a place like Mexico, especially Mexico City,

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how much of a great life you can have there. And then I read the article on Prospera,

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And it wasn't that far.

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So we were quite flexible.

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So we were like, let's check this out.

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And then I felt, both of us felt from that trip that there was something very special

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going on here that we want to be a part of.

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Did you already have a business idea before that you were thinking of implementing in

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Prospera?

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Because obviously that's one of the biggest attractions to Prospera for most people, because

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there's plenty of beautiful places you can live around the world.

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Prospera is one of those places.

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it's on the beach it's a little tropical island it's lovely but really what probably attracts most

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people is the opportunity regulatory or or you know tax or whatever you know yeah i think uh yes

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and no in a way or or in a i think the story is quite good right so i was actually thinking about

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the kind of things that i would need prosper for before i knew it existed right so i was a founder

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mostly in like big data and analytics. So I knew how to well handle large data sets and things like

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that. And I wanted to go into one of the biggest industries with and solve some of the biggest

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problems in the world. And healthcare seemed kind of obvious to me because of COVID. And I learned

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that we have all this amazing science and technology available. But at the same time, the path for new

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inventions, new drugs, new therapies to get to market, it's like super long, right? During the

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pandemic, we had all these crazy restrictions. We had all these like blockages of like testing by

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the CDC. And also like operation warp speed was better than usual. But then afterwards, we weren't

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like iterating and sort of inserting the vaccines within your genome sequencing. So it would be more

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effective for subsequent variants. So all that struck me as tremendously irrational. And sort of

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doing a business in this super regulated space just doesn't make sense. You can add small band-aids

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in some parts of the system, potentially make a lot of money with it, but you can't really

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fundamentally change or fix it. We have a sick care system and that's very much hard-coded into

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the regulations. And then I kind of went down the whole rabbit hole of Milton Friedman, David

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Friedman, Tom Sowell, and also the whole public choice theory thing. And it was kind of understanding

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that's systematic. It's due to the way we do regulations. But it was kind of just an

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intellectual curiosity. And I was always like, hey, you should do a real business. Eventually,

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you need to make an income. And you should stick to what you know. And that was kind of,

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hey, build something with software and build analytics. So I was actually working on a

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different software that was unrelated to that, nothing regulatory. But I had these two things

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in my mind. On the one hand, my mind was gravitating towards that, but I just didn't know

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how to. And I was listening or reading about sea setting at the time, but it just seemed utopian

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to me. And I was like, hey, I'm an entrepreneur. I want to build something that can actually make

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a difference. And then I came to Prosper and there was just an unlock. There was just like,

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all of a sudden, how I was thinking about the world and what seemed now practically possible

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were coming together, right? Hey, some of the stuff like the faster path to market, the regulatory,

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the problems with housing regulations, the problems with education, all of that,

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we can do different here. Like here's this flexible system where you can design sort of

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new or different regulations. And that's then led me down to basically start with Infinita VC,

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the VC fund, because I could share all these ideas or connect with all these startups that

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were at the forefront and directly facing these regulatory barriers. And I'm also doing a podcast

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about that called Stranded Technologies. And then sort of halfway in, after one and a half years,

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I kind of realized, you know, Prosper really needs a growth industry. It really needs to prove

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that this governance innovation can solve some of the biggest problem in the world.

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And to me, just the most scalable and highest upside area just seemed to me biotech and

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healthcare.

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Sort of back into what I was starting to originally think about.

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And basically, if we're able to solve the problem for one biotech company to go to market

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and eventually go to a big market like the United States, then we could do it for hundreds

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of companies versus in some other areas like crypto.

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I think you can use the regulatory advantages for very interesting crypto companies or insurance

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companies or like, you know, the drone companies or robotics, but every time would be kind of very

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custom to you. And it would not scale so much to other companies versus in biotech and healthcare.

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Here we design a playbook and then hundreds of companies can do the same thing.

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This then led me to start Infinita City, which started sort of as the Vitalia Pub-Up City that

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you might have heard of And now we basically bringing people in biotech and then crypto to Prospera We do demo days with them We do startup mentorship and advisory We also exploring to build new labs and clinics

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We're also looking for these companies to help them expand. So we recently passed the enabling

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legislation in Montana. So we have access to the largest market in the world and sort of aim to be

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this you know decentralized longevity city with the first hub in prospera second in montana and

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then several hubs around the world wow that's eliciting so many questions in me before we before

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we talk anything about what you're doing in prospera i want to i want to start with um the the

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sort of community question which is what kind of like brought us back together originally and what

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gonzalo mentioned um so and it's good that you were a former nomad as well because what gonzalo

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was talking about was that he was surprised how prosper didn't appear to be sort of trying to

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attract um digital nomads now i personally don't have a problem with that because i you know i

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speak to a lot of people in this movement and really digital nomads aren't necessarily considered

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a large block of people that really need attracting it's more especially in free city type projects

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it's more about local people you want to get you want to get real people from the real country

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coming because nomads tend to be unreliable but what gonzalo is saying and he i think he really

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he kind of did convince me back the other way to say look that there may be a small block of people

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but what they do is create a buzz around a place and and that definitely does elicit more interest

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in a place and sure maybe only 20 of them stay 10 of them stay long term or whatever but that

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doesn't matter they're the kind of first movers they're the canary in the coal mine kind of thing

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if they if if a place gets the the okay from nomads often it goes on to great things but then

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also on the other side of that is and i think i saw on the news a couple of days ago in mexico

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same thing's happening again protests in a mexico from locals saying stop gentrifying our places

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because we can't afford them and stuff so i don't know what's what's your what's your take on that

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whole digital nomad thing yeah um i also listened to the interview and i was initially a bit skeptical

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um probably a bit less than you were but then afterwards leaving very inspired from the interview

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when back three years ago, I basically started testing what could be the sort of target audience

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for Prosper, right? So we know we had to create local jobs, right? So we knew we had to work with

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people on the island and had to attract mainland Hondurans. And we did that. And it was especially

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speaking to the startup community, right? And then I was kind of looking at different verticals,

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like all of them, or generally I was looking for entrepreneurs, right? Because the biggest factor

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that makes people stay here is that they have jobs, that they have something to do, right?

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So you need the entrepreneurs to create these jobs. And I was basically looking by different

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industries, right? So now my hypothesis was kind of like, let's find the kind of industries where

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there's the highest upside or the highest value. And I was kind of adjacently thinking a bit about

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digital nomads, but kind of also discarding the thesis a bit because my idea was like,

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hey, I'm not finding the right entrepreneurs there.

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The kind of entrepreneurs I'm looking for

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are in this very specialized biotech or crypto area.

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But among nomads, that's just probably one in a hundred

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or one in a thousand is doing that.

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And sort of the honeypots to find these kinds of people

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are kind of elsewhere.

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But I think what I really underestimated

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is the switching costs.

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right so for people to move to a different place um just like the switching costs are so high

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right so you know the more you're into your career or into like a family life the higher

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switching costs are right so it's harder for you to emotionally say goodbye to like friends or

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family to convince your wife or your children especially women in school and also when you're

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kind of more established then you have like status attached to you and your environments right so you

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have to give data and start a new, right? So you're basically speaking then to younger people,

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that's established people that don't have as high switching costs, but they often don't have a lot

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of income, right? So it's very hard for you as an organization to sustain yourself on that.

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And then I think what I underestimated, that's what I underestimated. And then sort of the

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argument with digital nomads is the switching costs are low, right? Because these people are

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kind of already flexible and are already looking. And that's probably, as Gonzalo said,

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like, you know, in my case, I was looking kind of for the cannery and the coal mine

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entrepreneurs in their fields. But you also need a lot of entrepreneurs who do content, who do,

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you know, who do restaurants here, who, you know, do traditional businesses,

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not necessarily some VC funded startups. But I think with that interview and Gonzalo also being

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here in Prosper, I think we really have a good chance to double down on that thesis. Because

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as I tell you, from doing this for three years, it's been really hard to bring people and build

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community and prosper. Yeah, it's funny. By the end of speaking with him, I realized you just want

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to get everyone to come. That was the kind of thing I was thinking to myself, yeah, why sort of

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like blacklist a group of people because of xyz why not just be get everyone i mean i know that

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obviously you have to allocate money to places and build certain types of accommodation you know

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obviously digital nomads don't want lovely luxury villas they probably want co-working spaces and

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small cheaper places maybe i don't know but but still it's like of course you know everyone should

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come and i i do probably now believe in the kind of thesis that there are first movers who tend to

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be nomads you get you get pre-nomads who are just like people like yourself you're just like weird

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something weird's happening i gotta go and have a look this sounds great you know then you get

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that first mover and they tend to be digital nomads and i do think they're part of the process

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I think you often find that in cities when areas become cool.

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You know, there's a group of people that move in first when it's cheap and they make it cool.

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And then they get priced out later by someone else, etc, etc, etc.

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However, with Prosper, I think you can hopefully you can keep everyone good because you've got this option to build everything if you want.

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This is the beauty of it.

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And this is the other thing that I kind of drew from Gonzalo's speaking to him was there is the potential to do anything there.

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You really don't have to not do certain things because it's all ready to be done.

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It's all available to be built, literally, physically, but also digitally, you know, everything.

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And really, that's, you know, quite astonishing when you think about it.

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I'm not sure there are many other places in the world where you can actually do that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I mean, what I might say is where I think he might be a bit too over-optimistic is,

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now, one big barrier is simply the brand of Honduras here, right?

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So people hear Honduras and they don't hear Roatan, right?

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So you know that Roatan is a tropical paradise.

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If it was a US state, it would be the fourth safest US state, right?

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It's very easy to get here, flights or whatever, and sort of a bit higher level of amenities.

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But we hear Honduras and they're kind of eerie about it.

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And I understand that.

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It was the same for me when I came there for the first time.

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So even coming to Mexico for the first time, even though I had a lot of travel experience,

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and then Honduras as well, you kind of postpone it.

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And then especially if you hear about the political trouble, you're like, eh.

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So in that sense, that makes it a bit harder than when you're Portugal or I think Medellin

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Colombia is also now more established as a nomad hub or like Chiang Mai, Thailand. I mean,

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yeah, come on, easy. So nomad paradise. But I think that is one thing that is just making it

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difficult to establish that. And the other thing is, I do also think he underestimates a bit that

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much of the nomad community is a bit more left-wing than he thinks. So I actually had some

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people exploring that thesis or introducing Prosper in their communities. And some of the

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people that actually Gonzalo himself mentioned, and they said that he's getting very strong feedback.

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It's not necessarily that these people are super left-wing relative to the general population

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elsewhere, but it's just like if you have these Guardian articles, it just makes people like,

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okay, it's not something that the consensus right now is accepting. It's still something like,

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You know, what do other people think?

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It might be this bad thing or whatever, you know, so you need to give it a chance and

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to like really sort of become a very strong advocate or like have very strong reasons that have to do with like supporting the idea the ideas behind that sort of realizing that sort of what the world thinks about it right now

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the mainstream media that we're not consuming, right? I mean, you know, in the free city space,

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prosper is like great and whatever. But now in the normal world, you people read the Guardian

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or the New York Times, right? So I think he might underestimate that a bit. But still,

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I think the potential is much higher than what I initially thought from digital nomads.

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So I think we have a really good chance now to explore that thesis.

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I think you're absolutely right about the political leanings of people.

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Because I met Gonzalo at a sort of invite-only nomad summit in Morocco.

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And yeah, there was probably two or three free market guys there drifting around, being quite quiet.

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and not that that was a problem or anything because I don't have any problem with what I

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believe and I've tested the thesis over and over again and I would say also the me of 15 years ago

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would would be would have been that guy as well I worked in the media for years and without really

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knowing who I was I there were certain things I just took for granted and the narrative around

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to prosper is super strong in that sense the kind of colonialism aspect to it which which you know

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it's very hard to combat because it it makes a lot of sense as well if you're if you if you read an

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article that says oh look people are building this place um um you know that that basically

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it's going to cause this disparity in income between you know this place and this place uh

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that's not fair and it's it's easy to to believe that that's true and in one sense it kind of is

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but in another sense it's like well what are you going to do nothing like what what are you going

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to do you either make a place better according to what you think or you don't it's it's it's like

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there's no such thing as everyone being happy with your decision but i have to say that i know a

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number of people friends of mine one in particular who was very left-wing who went to prosper and

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completely changed his opinion on it and on everything actually he came away politically

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different and i think that's the truth i i don't see many people go there uh and and come back um

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with the same opinion um and and and so i you know i mean what is your experience i mean in

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In Prospera's case, the very compelling narrative that you often hear is that the local community Crawfish Rock, which is next door, which is a very simple community of people fishing, a few people doing simple jobs, but nothing, you know, a very sleepy little village on the beach, is somehow going to be negatively impacted by this.

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um so what's someone who lives there and you who knows people there and goes there and what's the

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what's your opinion on it yeah i mean i've brought about 1,500 people right the last like two years

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right so and i can confirm what you're saying right so um people are liking it far more than

325
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they initially thought right so even when you're already positively inclined to these ideas

326
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you're even more excited afterwards, right? Because it's like very impressive when you see

327
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Christine Bay, when you see the Do Not Tower now, the Circular Factory, when you hear about the gene

328
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therapies. So just like alone, the visuals are like very exciting for people and like, whoa.

329
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And then if you're into the ideas and hear like about the regulatory system and like the legal

330
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ideas, you're like, wow, this can really change the world in so many important ways.

331
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So almost everyone, like 90, 95% of people have this far exceeding their expectations.

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And we regularly have people here like journalists with different political opinions that are not inclined to like it. And there's a very small number that kind of does the whole thing, talks to us and still writes something kind of disingenuous about it. It's a very small number.

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And we had a much larger number of more left-wing journalists that wrote about it and put in some negative, tendentious kind of things to please their audience.

334
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But the same kind also were very honest and giving our arguments.

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So there was this piece in this left-wing Honduran magazine called Contra Corriente, which said some things to the extent it's like these tech bros or whatever.

336
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but it was like some of the most empathetic and true content about us in terms of who we actually

337
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are and what we want to do and what we're actually saying right so i think it really does have that

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effect on people right so i think we have some practice now um sort of addressing arguments or

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concerns i think prosper did very good work instead of hey you know the the coral reef is protected by

340
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environmental statute like we have labor rights that in a way exceed what's currently available

341
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and you thought it through. It's not no regulation. Everyone learns, okay, this is not

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no regulation. Why has everyone taught me before that this is no regulation? The first thing that

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I hear about it as I see is these very long regulations or you do things. So there must be

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something false about what these other people told me. And I think that makes you a bit more

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open-minded. I liken a bit to, you know, back in the days, you know, a lot of people were like

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skeptical, sort of everyone said Jordan Peterson, that's like this right-wing guy or whatever,

347
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don't listen to him. And then you listen to him as like this very reasonable guy. So that kind of

348
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makes you question, what else are they kind of trying to steer me away from and sort of makes

349
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you more open-minded and listening. And I think there is this, there's definitely this effect.

350
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And when it comes to the community relations here in Prospera with like Crawfish Rock and like the surrounding business community, I can't really compare it with anything.

351
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But my feeling is that it's far better than people think from the outside.

352
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And that's to like 20, 30 people, a percent of people in Crawfish Rock are employed, right?

353
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They tend to have, you know, to think very good about the jobs that they're getting or the opportunity.

354
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I think paradoxically, many of them don't even understand what this is all about, right?

355
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and some might even sort of hold a negative opinion.

356
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I think we're generally,

357
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but I think it's generally much less common

358
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and still people appreciate

359
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that it's bringing something good, right?

360
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And it's better jobs than elsewhere.

361
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So they might have sort of helped

362
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these two opinions at the same time.

363
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And then I think also what Gonjalo says,

364
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really critical to develop good relations

365
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with the business community.

366
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My impression is that we're doing pretty good there, right?

367
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So I'm not aware really of any business

368
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that's not doing business of us

369
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because we're us. I very regularly interact with other business people from the island.

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Among almost every business person that I've talked to on the island, the sentiment towards

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prospects is very positive. And as a final indicator, maybe cab drivers or taxi drivers.

372
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So people constantly come here and use taxi drivers as a barometer. And my impression or

373
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rough data collection was that four in five taxi drivers are positive towards us. And that is

374
00:35:39,584 --> 00:35:44,724
pretty good right because there's more of a people um element to what taxi drivers might be thinking

375
00:35:44,724 --> 00:35:53,904
about this what about um going back to crawfish um bay um what i tried to find out what the

376
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worries were you know and because i i can understand that there are real worries there and

377
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one worry which is irrefutable is that oh my god they're building a big city near us

378
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and i can't refute that that's absolutely true but when i i didn't see anyone who seemed to be

379
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complaining about that i saw land grabs things like that which as far as i know that can't happen

380
00:36:18,244 --> 00:36:23,544
isn't that isn't that true yeah like what so so what what are the main worries from people who

381
00:36:23,544 --> 00:36:29,844
live in the little community next door yeah i mean it's a bit hard to distinguish between like

382
00:36:29,844 --> 00:36:34,964
genuine worries and what is kind of you know what people told them to worry about and therefore

383
00:36:34,964 --> 00:36:41,544
they're influenced by it right so um i'm not sure i can recall sort of the whole dispute but you know

384
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the main kind of loud mouths against us who like speak about all the line grabbing they have their

385
00:36:47,504 --> 00:36:53,204
own political or local interests right so the story was something like you know prosper was

386
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providing water for a more reasonable price and they were before kind of the water monopoly

387
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and a lot of people depended on them and they're themselves in a position of power in that community

388
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and kind of see their local power in a way.

389
00:37:06,804 --> 00:37:10,604
It's a bit like regulatory capture and special interests there, right?

390
00:37:12,144 --> 00:37:15,924
Which, again, as you say, is almost impossible to avoid.

391
00:37:16,724 --> 00:37:20,544
So, the concerns about land grabs or something like that

392
00:37:20,544 --> 00:37:23,184
don't seem real for that reason, right?

393
00:37:23,284 --> 00:37:26,924
So, it kind of goes back to this visit that Eric had

394
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and he was trying to explain,

395
00:37:30,005 --> 00:37:35,485
explain like, no, we can't appropriate land. And it was trying to explain. So Eric is a very

396
00:37:35,485 --> 00:37:40,965
rational guy, right? And he's just like explaining it to people. Currently, the Honduran government

397
00:37:40,965 --> 00:37:48,085
has a right to expropriate you, right? They do so left and right, right? And they had to kind of,

398
00:37:48,805 --> 00:37:54,225
and the ZAs do too, right? So in a kind of weird way, I'm not sure I know the entire legal

399
00:37:54,225 --> 00:38:02,005
technicalities but they deliberately designed a way so they could not do that right so and it was

400
00:38:02,005 --> 00:38:06,965
just like explaining that and then like someone recorded that and put it like entirely out of

401
00:38:06,965 --> 00:38:12,085
context sort of making it seem like that he was talking that he would expropriate where he was

402
00:38:12,085 --> 00:38:17,185
saying or explaining the entire opposite hey we set ourselves up so we can't do that right

403
00:38:17,185 --> 00:38:22,505
you mean that was just politically they cut the section out where he said both the condurin

404
00:38:22,505 --> 00:38:28,385
government and prospera could appropriate and then cut there before he said but we've actually

405
00:38:28,385 --> 00:38:33,965
designed our constitution or whatever to say we can't do that on purpose you know they can

406
00:38:33,965 --> 00:38:40,525
yeah exactly so does it always seem probably politically motivated right and i think

407
00:38:40,525 --> 00:38:45,945
um you know of course in my position i'm not working for prosper so i can criticize them but

408
00:38:45,945 --> 00:38:52,145
i also understand how hard it is for them i think they um were not sort of setting the story straight

409
00:38:52,145 --> 00:38:56,925
back then. So in some of these PR moments, I think it's very important to very quickly set the story

410
00:38:56,925 --> 00:39:02,205
straight. And back then, they just weren't because I think it was also very new territory for them.

411
00:39:03,125 --> 00:39:08,885
And that, I think, then made the round. And that was sort of then material for other people just

412
00:39:08,885 --> 00:39:14,545
to repeat the claim and for the then opposition, who later became the Honduran government, to double

413
00:39:14,545 --> 00:39:20,945
down on expropriation. It's like this scare image that you can implant on people. So even if they're

414
00:39:20,945 --> 00:39:26,125
not there it just seems something that's plausible to them and just like a fear you can instrumentalize

415
00:39:26,125 --> 00:39:33,825
you're absolutely right though that the the the creation the sort of prosperer uh billionaire

416
00:39:33,825 --> 00:39:43,365
tax avoiding uh frankenstein medicine sort of image that's created is super compelling

417
00:39:43,365 --> 00:39:51,965
except when you go there like that's the the pure nature of it in its entirety is the moment you go

418
00:39:51,965 --> 00:39:58,625
there you realize in the first instance quite a lot that actually that's not true but then slowly

419
00:39:58,625 --> 00:40:05,025
but surely if you dig a little bit deeper um you you you realize that what's going on there is

420
00:40:05,025 --> 00:40:11,985
as good as could be done in that situation you want to make a place better you want to start

421
00:40:11,985 --> 00:40:17,425
from scratch uh you want to give everyone the opportunity to do whatever they want and try and

422
00:40:17,425 --> 00:40:22,805
make it better this is probably the best model that we've ever come up with so so if you're not

423
00:40:22,805 --> 00:40:29,905
happy with this model then please tell us how to do it not you can't do it you know but how how do

424
00:40:29,905 --> 00:40:35,445
we make it better you know and as someone that's been speaking about these things for now over two

425
00:40:35,445 --> 00:40:42,165
years, I can't. I find it compelling. I find it the correct way to do it. I find it the fair way

426
00:40:42,165 --> 00:40:49,185
to do it as much as possible. And also, what's interesting about Prospera and the ZAs in general

427
00:40:49,185 --> 00:40:55,245
is, and this is one of my bugbears about journalists who come to Prospera, is they never

428
00:40:55,245 --> 00:41:01,125
go to Ciudad Morazan, because that does not fit that narrative in the slightest, right?

429
00:41:01,125 --> 00:41:07,885
and for those listening who don't know what ciudad morizan is the other well-known um zed a which has

430
00:41:07,885 --> 00:41:12,225
been sort of like dubbed the blue collar zed a because it's pretty much apart from two foreigners

431
00:41:12,225 --> 00:41:19,865
it's uh an almost 100 local hondurans living a better life inside the free city than their

432
00:41:19,865 --> 00:41:25,685
neighbors which is one of the most dangerous parts of honduras and um you can't go there and spin the

433
00:41:25,685 --> 00:41:32,125
same kind of narrative it has no billionaires other than the guy that built it the one guy

434
00:41:32,125 --> 00:41:39,465
who built it is a sort of like his passion project to help hondurans and um and you know this is the

435
00:41:39,465 --> 00:41:45,105
beauty of this system it's like cool you know you can do you can do it you can create a competing

436
00:41:45,105 --> 00:41:51,505
one well currently obviously we're in that's slightly different because of what's happening

437
00:41:51,505 --> 00:41:58,125
with the government but in its original state the whole point is you can do these things and you can

438
00:41:58,125 --> 00:42:03,105
experiment and you can try and create something better than than what's already there you know

439
00:42:03,105 --> 00:42:08,745
yeah and i think that's also ultimately the argument that works with people right from

440
00:42:08,745 --> 00:42:14,505
wherever on the political spectrum they are right so you know we're trying something here we're going

441
00:42:14,505 --> 00:42:20,205
about it in a very responsible way right sort of and according to the ideas that we think work

442
00:42:20,205 --> 00:42:24,285
and if they don't work, then we'll learn about that.

443
00:42:24,725 --> 00:42:26,745
And you can try your version of this,

444
00:42:26,905 --> 00:42:29,705
sort of a bit more of like a socialized healthcare system

445
00:42:29,705 --> 00:42:31,045
or whatever, right?

446
00:42:31,085 --> 00:42:33,045
Are you happy with the current political system?

447
00:42:33,205 --> 00:42:35,325
You're criticizing that all the time, right?

448
00:42:35,465 --> 00:42:37,365
So you get the half of the time,

449
00:42:37,445 --> 00:42:39,645
you get what you want or what you think you want,

450
00:42:39,645 --> 00:42:41,505
but you're also often disappointed by that.

451
00:42:41,905 --> 00:42:43,085
Then the other half of the time,

452
00:42:43,665 --> 00:42:45,965
you have like a government or an administration

453
00:42:45,965 --> 00:42:47,985
that you think is pure evil, right?

454
00:42:47,985 --> 00:42:57,525
So is that, why can't you let you build your place with the kind of people that you think best represent your values and what you think is a better way of doing it?

455
00:42:57,965 --> 00:42:59,705
I think that ultimately works on people.

456
00:42:59,825 --> 00:43:02,305
They kind of see, yeah, that kind of makes sense.

457
00:43:03,725 --> 00:43:04,885
Yeah, true.

458
00:43:05,185 --> 00:43:09,825
But unfortunately, in reality, that means many places don't get built.

459
00:43:10,505 --> 00:43:16,365
And it's a hard truth to face, especially if you've believed in a certain system your whole life.

460
00:43:16,365 --> 00:43:25,185
but the truth is and i hope to see the day when these kind of theories work work in real life if

461
00:43:25,185 --> 00:43:29,605
we have hundreds of thousands of competing places i'm not sure it will happen in my life but it'd be

462
00:43:29,605 --> 00:43:36,205
lovely but you will notice very quickly which systems have people moving to them and which don't

463
00:43:36,205 --> 00:43:44,625
and unfortunately for non sort of free market aligned people i i have a sneaky suspicion that

464
00:43:44,625 --> 00:43:49,885
those free marketplaces will be the ones that thrive because we're seeing it happen in real

465
00:43:49,885 --> 00:43:55,485
life now and uh you know like i say it's a it's probably a hard pill to swallow for certain people

466
00:43:55,485 --> 00:44:01,565
it forces you to be proactive productive you you have to you really have to do something you have

467
00:44:01,565 --> 00:44:07,485
to add value you really do and i'm i i i don't think everyone aligns with those principles

468
00:44:07,485 --> 00:44:14,385
because and you know i don't know yeah but at the same time you know some of the places

469
00:44:14,385 --> 00:44:20,905
You see that often in places that seem like more socialist or to the left that actually

470
00:44:20,905 --> 00:44:22,065
are capitalist, right?

471
00:44:22,105 --> 00:44:23,765
Like Sweden, right?

472
00:44:23,825 --> 00:44:31,265
Or you're like your whatever consciousness, longevity camp or whatever in Bali or something

473
00:44:31,265 --> 00:44:31,745
like that.

474
00:44:31,825 --> 00:44:37,365
Like these things have some elements of like a left-wing ideology that they cater to or

475
00:44:37,365 --> 00:44:42,565
like impulses or wishes or desires in us that have to do with like care, right?

476
00:44:42,565 --> 00:44:46,825
As opposed to we're like commercializing everything or whatever, right?

477
00:44:46,825 --> 00:44:51,885
So some people and, you know, I myself sometimes don't want, you know, my relationships to be

478
00:44:51,885 --> 00:44:56,865
entirely driven by that or whatever, but the underlying mechanism is capitalist, right?

479
00:44:57,005 --> 00:45:04,585
So I still think there is place for, you know, free cities that are sort of less explicitly

480
00:45:04,585 --> 00:45:10,245
branded as like libertarian projects, but still sort of have a working business model

481
00:45:10,245 --> 00:45:15,585
and capitalist mechanisms but sort of deliver sort of a product to people that isn't necessarily

482
00:45:15,585 --> 00:45:20,365
that explicitly brandless that well i think the main problem with those kind of places

483
00:45:20,365 --> 00:45:27,385
which it would be great to see how it plays how it would play out but really in systems with

484
00:45:27,385 --> 00:45:36,125
like large social care systems or social socialized systems people have to put into those systems

485
00:45:36,125 --> 00:45:41,765
and unfortunately they're also very attractive to people that don't put in

486
00:45:41,765 --> 00:45:47,945
and if truth be told you probably end up with more people taking out than putting in

487
00:45:47,945 --> 00:45:54,525
I think we'll have to wait and see because in a way it will be a free market of ideas

488
00:45:54,525 --> 00:45:59,125
at the moment unfortunately we have those socialized systems without being asked if we

489
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:03,665
want to put in or not we don't have the option not in my country anyway you have to put in

490
00:46:03,665 --> 00:46:09,725
but if we if i had the choice no of course i'd much rather a different system but um yeah i don't

491
00:46:09,725 --> 00:46:18,245
know i i've got a question about um the the the strategy like what before we go on actually can

492
00:46:18,245 --> 00:46:24,845
you define exactly like your role in the community there does prosper have a person in charge of

493
00:46:24,845 --> 00:46:30,585
community relations or is it just that you've been there so long and you you're you know you've

494
00:46:30,585 --> 00:46:34,065
organize lots of events and that kind of stuff it's not an official title right

495
00:46:34,065 --> 00:46:40,885
yeah so um i have an independent business i'm not part of prosper though i'm an advisor to them

496
00:46:40,885 --> 00:46:45,925
right so i have some skin in the game i have a lot of skin in the game that's my success is

497
00:46:45,925 --> 00:46:57,800
staked on the success of prosper right so um when i came there three years ago i kind of noticed that um you that Prosper just didn do enough yet with community and bringing people or whatever

498
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,380
So I just saw that as a gap that I started filling.

499
00:47:00,980 --> 00:47:05,420
So I started organizing these conferences with the VC fund, bringing startups and people.

500
00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:09,320
Then with Vitalia, we got like 500 people to come.

501
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:15,300
And then with Infinita, now a very large percentage of the people are here have come through us.

502
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:21,820
right so um but i chose to have my own business and i think in a way the separation

503
00:47:21,820 --> 00:47:27,680
makes sense right or is kind of an important potential industry distinction for us

504
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:34,380
um and biology observed that actually when he looked at prospera and vitalia now infinita right

505
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:40,560
so he was saying hey prospera is kind of this layer one they focus on like the jurisdiction

506
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,440
getting a limited degree of sovereignty

507
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,880
and layer two is built on that.

508
00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:50,880
And you have layer twos in blockchain or in crypto

509
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,340
because the layer one is often sometimes not that scalable.

510
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:57,680
So they don't have the bandwidth to do the other things

511
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,180
versus the layer two can reduce transaction costs,

512
00:48:01,260 --> 00:48:03,140
especially for specific kinds of users.

513
00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:05,380
Like this is your Ethereum layer two

514
00:48:05,380 --> 00:48:08,180
that makes DeFi or lending or whatever super easy.

515
00:48:08,180 --> 00:48:14,060
right and it kind of makes sense because the layer one and going back from the analogy to

516
00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:19,260
our industry the layer one and the layer two have to do very different be good at very different

517
00:48:19,260 --> 00:48:26,380
things right so to do what prosper does you can't like go out there shouting this is who we are we

518
00:48:26,380 --> 00:48:31,260
are like these tech bros or whatever and get like huge social media following of like the tens of

519
00:48:31,260 --> 00:48:38,240
thousands of people, because that's not the kind of discretion or approach that governments like.

520
00:48:38,780 --> 00:48:42,580
And look, another very material thing, it makes it harder to buy land if you announce it everywhere,

521
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:48,480
because your prices get higher. So when you look at Solano County, they sort of clandestinely

522
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,760
bought all the land, and they didn't want everyone to know that they're doing that,

523
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,680
which seems a bit shadowy in some of the hit pieces. But you need to do that, because otherwise

524
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:04,480
you get like huge land prices instead right so that's the kind of layer one work you need to be

525
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:11,040
more quiet a bit more kind of um sort of presentable to governments versus the layer two you

526
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:15,480
need to create a lot of buffs you need to create excitement with people and bring people you need

527
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:21,280
to kind of be out there and sort of you know be maybe a bit like controversial or just you know

528
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:27,040
say things that kind of get attention and get people excited so maybe that distinction generally

529
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,780
makes sense. So companies like Prosper can be layer ones that have multiple layer twos.

530
00:49:32,340 --> 00:49:39,280
So we have the Infinita layer two, which focuses on longevity and crypto. And now a couple of

531
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:44,980
friends, probably people you know that presented recently in Prague are working on a Bitcoin layer

532
00:49:44,980 --> 00:49:50,220
two, sort of a Bitcoin district. So you do some of the real estate and things like that.

533
00:49:50,860 --> 00:49:56,760
I think that is important to notice. So Prosper could have done much more with

534
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,180
community development or whatever but you know a few years ago it was just like the diplomatic

535
00:50:01,180 --> 00:50:06,180
stuff the Honduran government whatever that always has urgency like whenever you do PR

536
00:50:06,180 --> 00:50:12,160
um you know that's just like the most urgent thing and there's like a new fire each time

537
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:17,840
so you know the other stuff with community development it's just like very hard and

538
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:22,540
organizations can't it's very hard for organizations to get good at multiple things at the same time

539
00:50:22,540 --> 00:50:30,840
So that's kind of a niche or an important gap that I filled in Prospera in bringing and building community.

540
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:36,180
And now Prospera has Lonus, the VP of growth, who started about a year ago.

541
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:44,420
I'm very happy that he's there now because now he's taking some of the learnings that I took and does that for Prospera as well.

542
00:50:44,540 --> 00:50:46,280
So it's not just me alone doing that.

543
00:50:46,620 --> 00:50:50,620
And sort of the kind of work also for anyone in the industry who's thinking about that.

544
00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:52,740
it's very hard work, right?

545
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:53,840
Instead of getting people here,

546
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,220
you kind of need to drag them.

547
00:50:55,780 --> 00:50:58,220
You need to do it like in a very personalized way,

548
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,180
create these opportunities for them to come,

549
00:51:01,260 --> 00:51:01,920
like the events,

550
00:51:02,060 --> 00:51:03,880
and you won't get sponsorship for the events

551
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,280
because, you know, nobody knows about your events.

552
00:51:06,660 --> 00:51:08,880
So you kind of have to do it in a very bootstrap way.

553
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,260
So it's like very, very hard work

554
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:12,860
and very few people can do it, right?

555
00:51:12,860 --> 00:51:15,420
So, and that's offering like multipliers

556
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:16,520
that bring a lot of people.

557
00:51:17,020 --> 00:51:19,160
And, you know, Dushan is bringing a lot of people,

558
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,640
Max from Minicircle, now me, now Lonus.

559
00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:25,140
So having a community developer who's able to bring people

560
00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:28,020
is really, really crucial and really hard, right?

561
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,120
So you've seen that we had sort of the peak moments here in Cross,

562
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,620
but we had when we got the visits from Balaji Srinivasan

563
00:51:35,620 --> 00:51:37,360
and Naval Ravikant at the same time,

564
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,340
from Brian Armstrong and from Tim Braper.

565
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,060
Like we got these people here

566
00:51:41,060 --> 00:51:43,120
and we're still not like overrun by people.

567
00:51:43,820 --> 00:51:46,620
So is that what it takes to make these projects successful?

568
00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:51,980
that it's like a very it's very difficult kind of business model a go-to-market to pull off

569
00:51:51,980 --> 00:51:57,840
but i think we're getting closer right so my thesis was always you know it's hard and there's

570
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,900
like a very low conversion rate and sort of the people that come don't have a lot of you know

571
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:08,120
income and necessarily get your economic base but now we're starting to see little by little there

572
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,320
is permanent residence especially the duna building made a big difference i think we're

573
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:19,120
probably at now like 40 or 50 percent filled with permanence right and then these people start and

574
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:24,840
then that hopefully creates some sort of a network effect where like every additional person that's

575
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:30,080
now considering moving gets a higher value out of it because there's more existing community there

576
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,1000
right so the reason that people go to like san francisco even though the city is like is like you

577
00:52:35,1000 --> 00:52:42,020
know garbage in many ways is simply because there's so many other smart peers that they want to have

578
00:52:42,020 --> 00:52:47,720
there right so i think if we continue little by little we'll be at a point where um we sort of

579
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:53,620
gain network effects and it's just a much easier sell for people to move here i think it's interesting

580
00:52:53,620 --> 00:53:00,760
what you say about when you had that influx of very high profile people that came um i've learned

581
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:06,540
that actually from running this podcast is and the theory right from the start for me was always

582
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:12,420
it's a slow grind it's like a melt up it's a slow grind and it's just up and to the right which is

583
00:53:12,420 --> 00:53:19,560
true and you do get pumps every now and then from you know famous people on the podcast you're well

584
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:25,600
known people but they tend to retrace back to that line which is up and to the right in a sort

585
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:30,660
of like 45 degree angle or whatever and it's interesting because i've spoken to a number of

586
00:53:30,660 --> 00:53:36,240
people about this and i think a lot of people when they discover the idea of free cities or free

587
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:42,400
private cities like um you know prosper is they think oh my god everyone's going to hear about this

588
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,400
and then everyone's going to want to do it because it just makes so much sense but it's actually not

589
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,660
true it's a much slower process than that i find people who say the same thing about libertarian

590
00:53:51,660 --> 00:53:56,500
ideas as soon as they discover them they're like my god how did i not know this shit i've got to

591
00:53:56,500 --> 00:54:01,240
tell everyone and when they discover this everyone's going to believe this and it's not true either you

592
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:07,840
know it's always a sort of quite small number of people but it has to be said though that what's

593
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,840
happening in prosper currently is quite amazing because what what i mean this is me as an outside

594
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:21,820
observer i watched the honduran government literally face up to this project and say

595
00:54:21,820 --> 00:54:27,560
you are illegitimate we're shutting you down and within a pretty short time after that i saw the

596
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:33,120
biggest influx of new money coming into prosper to sort of build it than ever before so what was

597
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,700
that all about like how did how did that even happen it seemed like the complete opposite of

598
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:44,080
what would happen yeah i mean the short story on that specific part is that some of the money

599
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:49,400
agreements were made kind of before and actually that did ruling did actively make it harder it

600
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:55,420
did not make sure i mean it's still it's still a terrible time it would have been because i mean

601
00:54:55,420 --> 00:55:03,160
And I know that because I'm speaking to Sioudad Morozan, who kind of put all their things on hold at that particular time.

602
00:55:03,259 --> 00:55:04,780
It's like, no, we're not going to build anymore.

603
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:05,739
We're not going to do anything.

604
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,280
We've got to see what happens here because we're basically being told we're illegitimate.

605
00:55:09,420 --> 00:55:14,660
I'm not going to put a load of money in and build new buildings if we're going to have them all knocked down.

606
00:55:14,820 --> 00:55:18,560
So how come Prosperate is absolutely thriving more than ever now?

607
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:24,719
yeah i mean i think um so back then three years ago when i came here for the first time

608
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,499
it was almost in the same week where i was there after i kind of already suddenly mentally made

609
00:55:29,499 --> 00:55:34,920
the decision hey i want to be here that the new government came into power but you know i was

610
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:41,580
always like okay it might not work but if it works i'm gonna write history right because if it if we

611
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:49,019
survived his government and I was believing people like Jorge. So Jorge Colindres for me has been

612
00:55:49,019 --> 00:55:54,499
like a big anchor, like his confidence, his boldness, his like, you know, I've been doing

613
00:55:54,499 --> 00:55:59,540
this for 10 years and, you know, they may charge me with treason or whatever. This is like, how can

614
00:55:59,540 --> 00:56:07,320
you sort of stay, how can you sort of not gravitate towards that boldness, right? Sort of

615
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:22,574
or feel emboldened right The guy is going the higher risk than I am here as a fighter right So I just felt okay I believe in this guy and I believe in Prospera And if we succeed if we fail the story is we got the best legal framework and international

616
00:56:22,574 --> 00:56:27,114
protections in history, and it still fails. So imagine what they would do to our industry.

617
00:56:27,254 --> 00:56:32,714
It would succeed. Then we survived even like a hostile socialist government in a country like

618
00:56:32,714 --> 00:56:38,214
Underworld. So imagine what that means for our industry instead of the delta between these two

619
00:56:38,214 --> 00:56:44,914
different outcomes. So I was just like, okay, I'm all in on this. Even if the chance is like 10%,

620
00:56:44,914 --> 00:56:48,554
that will be enough for me. Because if we make this work, then we're going to make history.

621
00:56:49,214 --> 00:56:53,414
And it has probably also something to do with just my incentives. I'm just not a billionaire yet.

622
00:56:53,574 --> 00:56:58,154
I'm not yet rich. I feel like it's the time of my life to make these kinds of risks,

623
00:56:58,854 --> 00:57:03,614
which is what many people like Brian Armstrong or any of these people made early in their careers.

624
00:57:03,854 --> 00:57:07,374
This is the time when you want to make big bets. Of course, it's harder for you to do when you're

625
00:57:07,374 --> 00:57:12,214
already very wealthy or have kids, whatever, because then much of that or your reputation

626
00:57:12,214 --> 00:57:17,974
can be tarnished. But I think in Prospera, what people are really underestimated or what people

627
00:57:17,974 --> 00:57:23,414
are not seeing is that we're all upstarts. So the core people like Jorge and even Eric himself,

628
00:57:23,414 --> 00:57:29,634
his whole bet is on Prospera. There is no plan B. This is the thing for him. So yes,

629
00:57:29,714 --> 00:57:35,394
he's going to place his bet here. And I think that really led or bred a sort of resilience in

630
00:57:35,394 --> 00:57:41,814
prosper. And that was kind of infectious and that made it possible because this is a big deal to be

631
00:57:41,814 --> 00:57:48,474
under threat by a government like that. It attracted people to investments. So I think

632
00:57:48,474 --> 00:57:55,114
the investment was partly part of that confidence and partly also based on the insights.

633
00:57:55,654 --> 00:57:59,934
Hey, it could actually work. So you have the resilience there and the people committed enough

634
00:57:59,934 --> 00:58:05,734
to do it and again as a venture capitalist if i give this like a 20 25 chance you know then the

635
00:58:05,734 --> 00:58:12,454
outcome is like 10 or 50 or 100 times that is a very good expected value calculation right so

636
00:58:12,454 --> 00:58:16,734
you're supposed to have a backup though in that in that particular instance

637
00:58:16,734 --> 00:58:23,454
you're supposed to be investing in a number of projects yeah of course right so the kind of

638
00:58:23,454 --> 00:58:27,674
exactly but also the kind of investors that got the money and they are invested in other things

639
00:58:27,674 --> 00:58:32,954
right yeah which is we here we we aren't right so this is our one thing and that's kind of also

640
00:58:32,954 --> 00:58:39,654
necessary i think to make something like that succeed it's true though that if you if you win

641
00:58:39,654 --> 00:58:47,014
at this one if you defeat the socialist government who wants to shut you down that is a massive

642
00:58:47,014 --> 00:58:53,154
precedent a massive precedent and i've always said this about prospera is and it's what i respect

643
00:58:53,154 --> 00:58:58,854
most about what's going on there is you are at the sharp end of the wedge literally and you will

644
00:58:58,854 --> 00:59:06,154
face all the problems you are paving the way for other people to deal with way down the line even

645
00:59:06,154 --> 00:59:11,774
your the way you're building community you you know you've you worked out quite quickly hey if

646
00:59:11,774 --> 00:59:18,374
we hold events here it really it really works it's really good people come here you'll see now

647
00:59:18,374 --> 00:59:24,954
new startup societies new free cities they'll probably mimic your model because it works you

648
00:59:24,954 --> 00:59:30,454
know but you will found this stuff even what you were saying earlier about being quite quiet about

649
00:59:30,454 --> 00:59:37,734
things in the first few years that's really solid advice because at the time you might be there

650
00:59:37,734 --> 00:59:41,334
thinking shit we really need to promote this because we're not having enough people interested

651
00:59:41,334 --> 00:59:45,634
there's not enough investment but actually as you've shown maybe it's a good idea to be quiet

652
00:59:45,634 --> 00:59:50,774
in the first few years and take the hit before you actually start moving into that realm where

653
00:59:50,774 --> 00:59:57,334
you really start trying to attract people in more of a public way. Can I ask you about that big round

654
00:59:57,334 --> 01:00:02,594
of investment from, you know, Brian Armstrong and Coinbase and people like that? Where's that going?

655
01:00:02,694 --> 01:00:07,494
Do you happen to know? Do you know what's happening to that money? What's it designed for?

656
01:00:07,494 --> 01:00:14,214
Is it some general pot of money or, you know? Yeah, I mean, I'm not speaking for Prospera

657
01:00:14,214 --> 01:00:21,814
presenting them. What I can say is generally it is to make the layer two strategy work.

658
01:00:22,934 --> 01:00:28,694
So with Infinita and Vitalia, we kind of set a precedent. So Prosper's business model

659
01:00:28,694 --> 01:00:36,394
does not want to rely on us building all the real estate and bringing everyone because that's

660
01:00:36,394 --> 01:00:41,994
really difficult to scale. But with Infinita, we're renting, leasing some of the space,

661
01:00:41,994 --> 01:00:46,634
bringing around people kind of brilliant in this district that can be sort of their go-to-market

662
01:00:46,634 --> 01:00:53,014
strategy so their idea or pitch with the fundraise was that's how we scale this is how we bring more

663
01:00:53,014 --> 01:00:57,954
people this is why they're now doing like the bitcoin district and have like announcement for

664
01:00:57,954 --> 01:01:03,814
people to build like a wellness district or you know financial district and all these things right

665
01:01:03,814 --> 01:01:08,854
so that's the main thing right so the money is spent on making prosper bro enter the next stage

666
01:01:08,854 --> 01:01:12,234
in terms of all its financials and commercial.

667
01:01:12,674 --> 01:01:14,814
And the go-to market, the layer two strategy

668
01:01:14,814 --> 01:01:16,174
is what needs to work for that.

669
01:01:16,634 --> 01:01:19,214
So that could entail things like funding

670
01:01:19,214 --> 01:01:22,434
some of these new projects, building a lab.

671
01:01:23,014 --> 01:01:25,994
As you might've seen, they are advertising jobs

672
01:01:25,994 --> 01:01:29,834
for biotech and wet lab infrastructure and clinic.

673
01:01:30,514 --> 01:01:31,814
So these are the kinds of things

674
01:01:31,814 --> 01:01:35,014
that would allow people to spend more time here

675
01:01:35,014 --> 01:01:37,394
to stay here or something that would contribute

676
01:01:37,394 --> 01:01:42,874
towards the efforts of some of these layer two projects like ours i'm actually i'm planning on

677
01:01:42,874 --> 01:01:48,974
putting this out within a week this particular recording so it might be worth just giving us your

678
01:01:48,974 --> 01:01:55,954
view on the current situation with the government or what do you've you know morale number one at

679
01:01:55,954 --> 01:02:01,574
local morale but also what's actually going on because obviously the government backed themselves

680
01:02:01,574 --> 01:02:07,234
into a little corner where they had to act and it appears that they didn't really act is that

681
01:02:07,234 --> 01:02:13,614
doing government things again or what yeah i mean um i'm trying not to celebrate too soon

682
01:02:13,614 --> 01:02:17,854
right because we were also very optimistic before the supreme court ruling right and

683
01:02:17,854 --> 01:02:23,714
i wasn't really expecting that um others were sort of but um broadly speaking the morale was

684
01:02:23,714 --> 01:02:29,594
very high back then then that happened now again the morale is super high um you know we're very

685
01:02:29,594 --> 01:02:34,514
certain that the government is not going to be re-elected like the approval ratings and polls

686
01:02:34,514 --> 01:02:35,614
are abysmal.

687
01:02:37,094 --> 01:02:40,074
And so the change in government is very likely.

688
01:02:40,774 --> 01:02:44,534
We do see the other alternative administrations

689
01:02:44,534 --> 01:02:45,694
as aligned with us.

690
01:02:45,974 --> 01:02:49,194
So almost all of the major candidates have visited

691
01:02:49,194 --> 01:02:50,554
and know about the project.

692
01:02:50,874 --> 01:02:51,814
They see its value.

693
01:02:52,014 --> 01:02:55,154
We've proven we can get the politicians' pictures

694
01:02:55,154 --> 01:02:57,334
with Tim Draper or Brian Armstrong.

695
01:02:57,974 --> 01:02:59,934
That makes them look good, and that's good for the country.

696
01:03:00,414 --> 01:03:02,614
So I think the message that this can be good

697
01:03:02,614 --> 01:03:09,214
for either alternative or future administration is very strong, is very resonant and very good.

698
01:03:09,914 --> 01:03:17,774
And that also coupled with the arbitration claims and settling that, we are pretty confident in that setup right now.

699
01:03:19,294 --> 01:03:24,314
And it seems even that the current government is retreating from some of its claims.

700
01:03:24,974 --> 01:03:30,074
So I'm not sure if you know about Fernando Garcia, who was the anti-ZEA commissioner.

701
01:03:30,074 --> 01:03:35,234
where he was kind of the main responsible to get rid of the days it's like this old school marxist

702
01:03:35,234 --> 01:03:41,634
right and you know he signed in an interview a couple of weeks ago um sort of he had this

703
01:03:41,634 --> 01:03:49,174
face-saving story so he was saying like oh we got rid of like 27 zs but the last three ones we

704
01:03:49,174 --> 01:03:52,874
couldn't get rid of because they have the international protections right so he was

705
01:03:52,874 --> 01:03:57,694
having the story of how he had this like success anyway he just couldn't go away what are the 27

706
01:03:57,694 --> 01:04:02,654
is that is he got rid of i don't understand i don't know yeah i know there's some other

707
01:04:02,654 --> 01:04:07,594
applications that went in i know at least one or two i think oh right i'm sure it was 27

708
01:04:07,594 --> 01:04:15,014
where that number is coming from yeah but i mean i know if at least one way that's true right so

709
01:04:15,014 --> 01:04:19,714
the new government came into power and like the application was submitted but they came in and

710
01:04:19,714 --> 01:04:27,714
they killed the application right so right so okay so and when's the um when is the election

711
01:04:27,714 --> 01:04:34,034
due just out of interest in november i think in early november well really so quite close now

712
01:04:34,034 --> 01:04:37,454
so is there a lot of canvassing happening at the moment is there a lot are there a lot of

713
01:04:37,454 --> 01:04:44,794
politicians politicking around honduras already yeah i mean i'm not that involved in that right

714
01:04:44,794 --> 01:04:50,534
now we can't say much other than so when i hear the news from you know from cordial system people

715
01:04:50,534 --> 01:04:55,654
right so back then in the supreme with the supreme con ruling we kind of all work together to get

716
01:04:55,654 --> 01:05:04,414
some of these meetings and do some of these things um but since then i i'm not really um seeing or

717
01:05:04,414 --> 01:05:10,274
hearing a lot of that is my impression that prosper has now a much better response than before right

718
01:05:10,274 --> 01:05:16,894
So through some of these iterations, they were realizing they have to be very present in Tegel Sigal, have a narrative, have a story.

719
01:05:17,574 --> 01:05:23,214
Since then, they hired a guy who was specifically just focusing on these kind of relations.

720
01:05:23,974 --> 01:05:29,614
So I do think that, or it seems to me, I'm quite confident right now in Prost's ability to navigate those politics.

721
01:05:30,394 --> 01:05:45,369
Can you give me a bit of a rundown on what it like day to day these days do you live in doona tower yeah you do i mean man i peter went there there our ceo peter was there a couple of weeks ago and

722
01:05:45,369 --> 01:05:51,509
he did a walkthrough with uh on what's going on there and it's pretty impressive as to be said

723
01:05:51,509 --> 01:05:56,629
last time i was there was you know when we started this podcast so more than two years ago and the

724
01:05:56,629 --> 01:06:00,969
doona tower was being built there were you know but it really does look like the kind of place

725
01:06:00,969 --> 01:06:06,789
that you can almost just hang out and live in now i i'm not sure there were thousands of people

726
01:06:06,789 --> 01:06:12,209
walking around but can you describe your day-to-day life yeah uh boy i'm honestly really

727
01:06:12,209 --> 01:06:18,529
enjoying living there right so um i mean it's drop dead gorgeous right so you knew that already

728
01:06:18,529 --> 01:06:23,389
and that was the tune that's how you have really nice views um i'm living on the third floor and

729
01:06:23,389 --> 01:06:29,789
i start my day sort of you know i would like to work out a bit more early i should do more of that

730
01:06:29,789 --> 01:06:30,649
I don't always do that.

731
01:06:30,889 --> 01:06:35,449
But like I go to the co-working space very early and just like work a lot from there.

732
01:06:35,549 --> 01:06:37,449
Other people drop in, some team members.

733
01:06:37,689 --> 01:06:40,809
We do whiteboard sessions, you know, later in the day.

734
01:06:41,289 --> 01:06:45,529
We might just often like rooftop barbecues and parties going on, right?

735
01:06:45,529 --> 01:06:47,209
So we have this like infinity pool.

736
01:06:47,629 --> 01:06:54,449
Then in the P1 lab space, they often do like parties or have like a food lab or like growing

737
01:06:54,449 --> 01:06:55,849
like plants together.

738
01:06:56,469 --> 01:06:59,169
So some people here have these like little gardening projects.

739
01:06:59,169 --> 01:07:03,089
We have a football group that's going out every Sunday.

740
01:07:03,389 --> 01:07:06,389
We have our regular scuba diving groups.

741
01:07:06,729 --> 01:07:11,429
We have our regular like Pilates and yoga groups, right?

742
01:07:11,469 --> 01:07:16,689
So we have this like restaurant on site there now, Spirit Animal, and sort of people hang

743
01:07:16,689 --> 01:07:17,789
out there very regularly.

744
01:07:18,269 --> 01:07:20,549
So now it really feels like a real community.

745
01:07:21,049 --> 01:07:24,069
Like you know everyone and you're kind of aligned with everyone.

746
01:07:24,249 --> 01:07:26,589
So you always have like something interesting to talk about.

747
01:07:26,589 --> 01:07:30,329
boy I honestly really really enjoy that

748
01:07:30,329 --> 01:07:32,009
and we're sort of adding more and more

749
01:07:32,009 --> 01:07:33,369
kind of to the life stack

750
01:07:33,369 --> 01:07:34,849
of what you'd have

751
01:07:34,849 --> 01:07:36,729
sort of in another developed society

752
01:07:36,729 --> 01:07:38,109
so my wife for example

753
01:07:38,109 --> 01:07:39,489
she was always complaining

754
01:07:39,489 --> 01:07:40,609
that she doesn't have like

755
01:07:40,609 --> 01:07:42,289
the New York City level gym classes

756
01:07:42,289 --> 01:07:43,509
and now she does

757
01:07:43,509 --> 01:07:45,269
right now she's a really good instructor

758
01:07:45,269 --> 01:07:46,889
and that she's going to

759
01:07:46,889 --> 01:07:48,869
sometimes they come into the Duna building

760
01:07:48,869 --> 01:07:49,649
to do things

761
01:07:49,649 --> 01:07:54,609
so I really think Duna added so much value

762
01:07:54,609 --> 01:07:55,929
and we now have a real community

763
01:07:55,929 --> 01:08:01,829
and when like when you say you go to the co-working space etc like who else is there

764
01:08:01,829 --> 01:08:08,269
and how many people are there and oh yeah is it is it i mean yeah is it still the infinita co-working

765
01:08:08,269 --> 01:08:14,349
space yeah um so you should definitely visit some time right so it's it's a bit fluctuating right so

766
01:08:14,349 --> 01:08:19,589
um you know currently is a bit of a low month right but then sometimes we do these like theme

767
01:08:19,589 --> 01:08:24,069
months or events right so and when we have something like the draper challenge you have

768
01:08:24,069 --> 01:08:28,129
100 plus people there. So the co-working space is really full and vibrant.

769
01:08:28,909 --> 01:08:32,209
During normal times, on an average low-season

770
01:08:32,209 --> 01:08:36,129
day, you might have three to five people there that are working there during the day.

771
01:08:37,889 --> 01:08:39,689
But the space is just gorgeous.

772
01:08:39,989 --> 01:08:42,669
We have this Honduran artist in this land, Núiz.

773
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:48,269
He made this traditional mural art depicting ancient

774
01:08:48,269 --> 01:08:52,029
Mayan symbols. And he just got

775
01:08:52,029 --> 01:08:59,849
super interested in the whole like cyberpunk thing and is now like making murals on like crypto on

776
01:08:59,849 --> 01:09:07,009
robots on like biohacking and engineering so his murals on the co-working space just have this like

777
01:09:07,009 --> 01:09:13,209
epic futuristic vibe so it's just like a really cool space to head out you know you have good

778
01:09:13,209 --> 01:09:18,609
chairs you can sit on you have extra monitors you even have like a small kitchenette there

779
01:09:18,609 --> 01:09:23,549
and not kitchenette but you have a small like fridge where you can buy food right and you can

780
01:09:23,549 --> 01:09:29,149
pay there in crypto with a qr code you have a little mini mart where you can also pay in crypto

781
01:09:29,149 --> 01:09:35,029
if you know need toilet paper late at night or something like that or water so um you know one

782
01:09:35,029 --> 01:09:41,029
of the rooms is for presentations so we do mini conferences there and you know we could even we

783
01:09:41,029 --> 01:09:46,389
even do like karaoke nights there because we have a projector yeah and is that is that co-working

784
01:09:46,389 --> 01:09:53,569
space you called it the infinita infinita right so that's not a generally available co-working

785
01:09:53,569 --> 01:09:58,429
space or or is it is that just for people working in the biotech um it's for it's for infinita

786
01:09:58,429 --> 01:10:04,729
members um and but we want to make it really easy for people so we allow people in at like 15 bucks

787
01:10:04,729 --> 01:10:10,329
per day okay and what about families on site because that's always one of the things when i

788
01:10:10,329 --> 01:10:18,129
think about the tough nuts to crack in in a startup city or a free city it's families how do you get

789
01:10:18,129 --> 01:10:24,049
families there you know have you got any families yet yeah there are a bunch of families right so

790
01:10:24,049 --> 01:10:28,789
there are a bunch of people a bunch of families with children and they like you know take them

791
01:10:28,789 --> 01:10:35,729
take them around in the sort of walk around in the first level around the co-work and so yeah

792
01:10:35,729 --> 01:10:39,869
there are a couple of families there i'm not sure i know of at least one with two children is they're

793
01:10:39,869 --> 01:10:48,269
fairly regularly to another one um that i see from time to time we have plenty of visitors with

794
01:10:48,269 --> 01:10:55,429
families as well um yeah and then also you still have sort of the pristine bay part right so you

795
01:10:55,429 --> 01:10:59,809
know eric has his three children there and he has the school there which has like 50 or 60 children

796
01:10:59,809 --> 01:11:04,489
so i do think it's quite possible with children or with families like i'm planning to have a family

797
01:11:04,489 --> 01:11:12,289
year so all right good luck um the i want to talk a little bit about what you're doing infinita

798
01:11:12,289 --> 01:11:18,049
infinita how do i say i can't get it right infinita i say infinita but i'm not correcting

799
01:11:18,049 --> 01:11:26,709
people on the pronunciation okay infinita and correct me if i'm wrong but you you are you

800
01:11:26,709 --> 01:11:31,489
involved in project your own projects or are you a kind of umbrella organization that try and

801
01:11:31,489 --> 01:11:36,889
promote these kind of projects and help them yeah we're an umbrella organization right so we want

802
01:11:36,889 --> 01:11:42,669
to create a faster go-to-market for biotech and healthcare companies right so currently takes 14

803
01:11:42,669 --> 01:11:50,089
years with the fda right so and we just want to reduce that timeline right so um by the way of

804
01:11:50,089 --> 01:11:54,729
the prosper regulatory system the medical reciprocity and the sort of more streamlined

805
01:11:54,729 --> 01:12:00,449
regulations and things like that um and then also through other jurisdictions like montana give access

806
01:12:00,449 --> 01:12:01,429
to a very large market.

807
01:12:02,329 --> 01:12:05,449
So in practice, we worked a bit like an accelerator.

808
01:12:05,889 --> 01:12:07,829
So we bring startups, we advise them,

809
01:12:07,889 --> 01:12:09,889
we do demo days for them, we help them get investment.

810
01:12:10,429 --> 01:12:11,909
So we've got a startup that's more than 20

811
01:12:11,909 --> 01:12:13,349
or even 30 million in investment.

812
01:12:14,069 --> 01:12:16,069
But the next step really is that we develop

813
01:12:16,069 --> 01:12:19,089
kind of an end-to-end pathway for them.

814
01:12:19,349 --> 01:12:23,009
So you can do your testing here or animal studies

815
01:12:23,009 --> 01:12:26,549
or there, sort of maybe a new lab in Prospera.

816
01:12:27,309 --> 01:12:29,789
Then you can do like a phase one trial there

817
01:12:29,789 --> 01:12:36,149
And then, you know, could you collect additional data like in Montana, maybe you can give it to a larger set of patients.

818
01:12:36,929 --> 01:12:39,729
And then, you know, that increases your chances with the FDA.

819
01:12:40,189 --> 01:12:49,369
So we want to get people or companies to the whole pipeline and then get part of the revenue from treating patients from equity and from royalties and the assets that they're developing.

820
01:12:50,609 --> 01:12:54,029
Explain when you say Montana, explain what that is.

821
01:12:54,169 --> 01:12:54,849
I don't understand.

822
01:12:55,949 --> 01:12:57,409
Montana is a U.S. state, right?

823
01:12:57,409 --> 01:13:01,729
yeah but what's what why why are you working with montana what's happening there

824
01:13:01,729 --> 01:13:09,049
yeah so um you know the question i always get in prosper is okay great i can you know iterate a

825
01:13:09,049 --> 01:13:14,329
bit faster here um and i can do cheaper clinical trials and give it to some patients but you know

826
01:13:14,329 --> 01:13:18,989
i'm funded by vcs i need to become a multi-billion dollar company i need to get to a large market

827
01:13:18,989 --> 01:13:23,849
right and you might have heard of minicircle which is sort of the first pioneering biotech

828
01:13:23,849 --> 01:13:28,289
company that does that did the gene therapy clinical trial here you know pottery got the

829
01:13:28,289 --> 01:13:34,289
injection and several hundreds of people like the folistatin gene therapy right so that was kind of

830
01:13:34,289 --> 01:13:38,289
the template that we wanted to emulate and now we have some other companies like unlimited bio

831
01:13:38,289 --> 01:13:43,749
it's also doing gene therapy you can also get the chip implants now but yeah the question i always

832
01:13:43,749 --> 01:13:47,969
get is well how do you get to a big market right a mini circle is kind of you know it's talking to

833
01:13:47,969 --> 01:13:55,089
other jurisdictions to like Mexico, Costa Rica, Japan, Dubai. But the ultimate price is to be

834
01:13:55,089 --> 01:14:00,709
approved in the United States, right? Under the FDA, it's like 50% of the global markets in

835
01:14:00,709 --> 01:14:12,929
biopharma, right? So what got to my attention was Montana's right to try laws, right? So right to try

836
01:14:12,929 --> 01:14:17,809
is a federal law by now,

837
01:14:17,929 --> 01:14:20,969
and there's more than 30 or 40 US states

838
01:14:20,969 --> 01:14:22,149
that have a right to try law.

839
01:14:22,829 --> 01:14:23,849
And it basically says,

840
01:14:24,209 --> 01:14:27,609
well, why shouldn't you be allowed to try a drug

841
01:14:27,609 --> 01:14:28,889
even if it's not approved yet?

842
01:14:29,529 --> 01:14:31,629
And the premise is it has to be at least safe

843
01:14:31,629 --> 01:14:34,709
because safety testing is actually a smaller part

844
01:14:34,709 --> 01:14:36,089
of the overall regulatory cost,

845
01:14:36,489 --> 01:14:38,209
much more about the efficacy part

846
01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:40,389
that adds a ton of the cost to the process.

847
01:14:40,389 --> 01:14:46,369
So, right to try was basically, hey, if it's safe, then you should be allowed to get access

848
01:14:46,369 --> 01:14:49,149
to a drug or treatment even before it's FDA approved.

849
01:14:49,149 --> 01:14:52,269
But there was a very strong limitation.

850
01:14:52,269 --> 01:14:57,009
The limitation says, okay, you need to be terminally ill.

851
01:14:57,009 --> 01:14:59,969
And then the condition for that is quite strong.

852
01:14:59,984 --> 01:15:07,344
needs to approve it. You need to be dying at your bed. And also, the commercial incentives

853
01:15:07,344 --> 01:15:14,624
are not very good for it because for a company, when you give people this treatment and try to

854
01:15:14,624 --> 01:15:20,704
prevent them from dying, they might die anyway because they're in critical conditions. And then,

855
01:15:20,704 --> 01:15:26,464
was it because of the drug or because of the natural condition? And you have to report that

856
01:15:26,464 --> 01:15:32,964
death as an adverse event. That adverse event often lets the FDA shut you down.

857
01:15:33,924 --> 01:15:39,744
Not a good way to do things or to do science, right? So the FDA is not following the science

858
01:15:39,744 --> 01:15:43,164
always, right? Because they're following the political incentives, right? Because any of

859
01:15:43,164 --> 01:15:47,544
these things kind of makes them look bad and makes people like, something happened or whatever.

860
01:15:48,104 --> 01:15:54,724
So the solution really came with Montana in October, 2023, when they said in Montana,

861
01:15:54,724 --> 01:15:57,544
and states regulate medical services.

862
01:15:57,804 --> 01:15:59,404
They don't, the FDA does drug development.

863
01:16:00,304 --> 01:16:02,644
So this is like fine-tuned legal distinctions.

864
01:16:03,604 --> 01:16:06,304
And Montana said, hey, right to try.

865
01:16:06,464 --> 01:16:08,504
This goes under medical services here.

866
01:16:08,504 --> 01:16:13,804
So doctors are allowed to treat patients under right to try.

867
01:16:14,284 --> 01:16:18,484
And they're allowed to treat any patient, not just terminally ill.

868
01:16:19,304 --> 01:16:20,904
Now that is huge, right?

869
01:16:20,904 --> 01:16:25,564
because it allows two things, right?

870
01:16:25,604 --> 01:16:29,384
It allows for drug companies or clinics

871
01:16:29,384 --> 01:16:31,644
that don't only treat terminally ill patients

872
01:16:31,644 --> 01:16:33,844
where they have that risk of adverse events, right?

873
01:16:33,844 --> 01:16:35,364
It allows a broader set of therapies.

874
01:16:35,904 --> 01:16:39,764
And also second, it allows sort of a more preventative

875
01:16:39,764 --> 01:16:42,804
and the longevity paradigm to take hold, right?

876
01:16:42,804 --> 01:16:46,064
So the longevity paradigm and sort of disease prevention

877
01:16:46,064 --> 01:16:49,464
doesn't neatly fit into the current regulatory model,

878
01:16:49,464 --> 01:16:53,384
which is kind of sick care and sort of symptom palliation, treating people when they're sick,

879
01:16:53,764 --> 01:16:58,824
not preventing them in the first place. So that was a really big revolutionary change in Montana.

880
01:17:00,104 --> 01:17:06,064
And when I looked at it, I was like, great, but still there's some work to do in creating a clear

881
01:17:06,064 --> 01:17:13,284
regulatory pathway. So that's why we recently worked on passing a new law in Montana that sort

882
01:17:13,284 --> 01:17:18,844
of makes that sort of creates a very clear regulatory pathway, reduces the risks for

883
01:17:18,844 --> 01:17:24,664
providers of these therapies even further, and increases the economic upside for companies

884
01:17:24,664 --> 01:17:26,444
providing these therapies to patients.

885
01:17:27,184 --> 01:17:32,524
So that, you know, is now a very exciting opportunity to get for two things, right?

886
01:17:32,564 --> 01:17:35,464
So to get patients medicine of the future, right?

887
01:17:35,464 --> 01:17:39,364
Stuff that's like 10 years before it's widely allowed, right?

888
01:17:39,364 --> 01:17:46,604
and second to allow biotech companies to get data much faster and cheaper that they can then use for

889
01:17:46,604 --> 01:17:52,104
trials and to iterate on their patient profile and sort of to increase their chances to be approved

890
01:17:52,104 --> 01:18:00,124
under the fda or the united states eventually here lies the part of prosper that always makes

891
01:18:00,124 --> 01:18:04,364
me feel uncomfortable and i'm sure makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable when you talk about

892
01:18:04,364 --> 01:18:11,344
things like this is you know this idea this kind of frankenstein monster type you can do what you

893
01:18:11,344 --> 01:18:18,224
want experimenting on people you even mentioned chips in your in your in your skin that scares

894
01:18:18,224 --> 01:18:22,224
the crap out of me i'm never getting a chip in my skin i don't think what is that for by the way is

895
01:18:22,224 --> 01:18:27,564
that for paying for things or is that uh is that is that something you can like open doors pay for

896
01:18:27,564 --> 01:18:32,444
things right now just use it for a gimmick right so you can like see my website or my business card

897
01:18:32,444 --> 01:18:39,104
with it yeah i that stuff that's i'm i'm on the kind of it's the mark of the beast side with regards

898
01:18:39,104 --> 01:18:44,364
to that kind of stuff but but but the truth is that a lot of people do find stuff like that

899
01:18:44,364 --> 01:18:50,084
uncomfortable and and especially when they hear that you get your you're kind of working around

900
01:18:50,084 --> 01:18:54,524
things to make things go faster blah blah blah most people would look at that and go

901
01:18:54,524 --> 01:19:01,244
shit that that's dangerous what are they doing like why why they're doing unregulated things

902
01:19:01,244 --> 01:19:06,644
What's the general comeback conversation that you have when people bring that to your table?

903
01:19:08,224 --> 01:19:11,864
Yeah, I mean, similar to the whole story of Prosper in general, right?

904
01:19:11,884 --> 01:19:16,984
So my business, including Montana and everything, is kind of very inspired by these kinds of ideas, right?

905
01:19:17,124 --> 01:19:21,784
You know, I think the moral premise of right to try is established.

906
01:19:22,364 --> 01:19:30,124
Like if you tell someone on the street, hey, should someone be allowed to take a drug that's safe, even if it's not yet proven effective?

907
01:19:30,664 --> 01:19:33,244
Yes, we do that all the time, right?

908
01:19:33,244 --> 01:19:35,444
So you have supplements all the time that are not proven.

909
01:19:36,304 --> 01:19:41,364
And, you know, people want to have the autonomy to choose, right?

910
01:19:41,404 --> 01:19:43,884
So I think that argument is generally widely accepted.

911
01:19:44,224 --> 01:19:47,044
And they also want to choose to say no, right?

912
01:19:47,044 --> 01:19:51,604
So I think with COVID and with all the restrictions and all the vaccine mandates, I think there

913
01:19:51,604 --> 01:19:56,684
was a bit of a, like, you know, I want to do it on my own terms, right?

914
01:19:56,684 --> 01:19:59,684
I don't want to be forced to take something new, right?

915
01:19:59,684 --> 01:20:03,584
So I think that reduced a bit trust in the existing system, right?

916
01:20:03,584 --> 01:20:10,644
So not only from the angle it doesn't allow all the interesting new stuff that I want,

917
01:20:10,704 --> 01:20:16,604
but also, hey, it pushes all the new stuff that I don't yet want or trust on me, right?

918
01:20:16,644 --> 01:20:24,444
So I think the idea to have a genuine choice and autonomy is very compelling to people.

919
01:20:24,604 --> 01:20:29,044
I was kind of very surprised actually that especially in Montana or generally in red states,

920
01:20:29,044 --> 01:20:34,404
people are like, you know, listen to Joe Rogan and like, you know, these peptides and stem cells

921
01:20:34,404 --> 01:20:39,644
and, you know, gene therapies and all of that, that sounds really cool. And I want that, right?

922
01:20:39,704 --> 01:20:45,324
And sort of the idea that pharma is treating a sick care or whatever, like we want the preventative

923
01:20:45,324 --> 01:20:52,004
paradigm, like the lifestyle changes, the PDRT, all of that, that actually has a much bigger appeal

924
01:20:52,004 --> 01:20:53,244
than you think now, right?

925
01:20:53,424 --> 01:20:56,504
So, and, you know, some of the,

926
01:20:56,504 --> 01:20:58,644
some of the, you know, sci-fi

927
01:20:58,644 --> 01:20:59,624
and out there stuff,

928
01:21:00,124 --> 01:21:01,904
and very quickly reassuring people,

929
01:21:02,304 --> 01:21:03,884
actually we're not that innovative

930
01:21:03,884 --> 01:21:05,644
and prosper on these things, right?

931
01:21:05,704 --> 01:21:07,404
Instead of the gene therapies that were used,

932
01:21:07,844 --> 01:21:09,064
you know, almost anyone can agree

933
01:21:09,064 --> 01:21:10,884
that that method to inject it

934
01:21:10,884 --> 01:21:11,844
into the body was saved.

935
01:21:11,924 --> 01:21:13,564
Like that's already proven, right?

936
01:21:13,604 --> 01:21:14,904
It's just like, you know,

937
01:21:15,404 --> 01:21:16,664
it's just like very expensive

938
01:21:16,664 --> 01:21:18,204
to do within the United States, right?

939
01:21:18,204 --> 01:21:19,484
But the pathway is already proven.

940
01:21:19,944 --> 01:21:21,224
And like the ships and implants,

941
01:21:21,224 --> 01:21:25,604
you know, Neuralink is doing that. And much of the stuff was done in the United States before.

942
01:21:25,684 --> 01:21:29,944
And it's basically at the level of like tattoos or piercings, which is in fact how it's regulated

943
01:21:29,944 --> 01:21:35,584
there. So much of this stuff is really not that scary when you actually see it and when you

944
01:21:35,584 --> 01:21:41,324
actually get the whole education on it, right? The actual scary stuff that I also see, that's

945
01:21:41,324 --> 01:21:46,564
done in research lab in the United States, right? So that's done at like Harvard, you know, that's

946
01:21:46,564 --> 01:21:51,224
done in like Stanford sort of, for example, like replacing the full body of someone of like a

947
01:21:51,224 --> 01:21:55,324
mouse, of course, not a person, but that stuff, you know, we get some of the scientists here to

948
01:21:55,324 --> 01:22:00,564
talk about it, but we don't actually do it in Prosper, right? So I think I, you know, I'm giving

949
01:22:00,564 --> 01:22:05,844
people a whole picture of these things and that's really like about medical autonomy and your

950
01:22:05,844 --> 01:22:11,404
decision and things like that. And that usually works like, well, and then of course people are

951
01:22:11,404 --> 01:22:15,344
like, okay, but there should be oversight. Like there could be accountability and there should

952
01:22:15,344 --> 01:22:21,204
be regulation like yes of course here's how we do it xyz right so can you explain i show them hey

953
01:22:21,204 --> 01:22:26,624
can you explain how it works the accountability while you're on it yeah yeah yeah and of course

954
01:22:26,624 --> 01:22:31,604
there's the prosper model right so the prosper model is that you have to convince an insurer

955
01:22:31,604 --> 01:22:37,464
right so you have to be regulated if you're in health care right you have to be insured right so

956
01:22:37,464 --> 01:22:43,484
and the insurer then gives you a policy that you have to be under right and you have to negotiate

957
01:22:43,484 --> 01:22:48,584
with the insurer, hey, but you can't go with something crazy, right? Where you have like no

958
01:22:48,584 --> 01:22:51,884
oversight and can do whatever you want that has no liability. It just doesn't work in the

959
01:22:51,884 --> 01:22:56,484
prosper legal system, right? So if you don't have insurance, you have extremely strong liabilities

960
01:22:56,484 --> 01:23:02,044
and you can get severely punished if you do that, right? And if you do it in a regulated way, well,

961
01:23:02,424 --> 01:23:07,624
the insurer is not going to agree to something that is like very reckless and crazy, right?

962
01:23:07,624 --> 01:23:11,544
Because then they have to pay if you mess up, right? And at the same time, they also don't

963
01:23:11,544 --> 01:23:15,984
want to over-regulate you, right? Because otherwise that increases the cost of doing business for them

964
01:23:15,984 --> 01:23:20,844
and gives them less customers and things like that. So the insurance regulatory flexibility model

965
01:23:20,844 --> 01:23:25,284
and practice how it works is of course people pick and choose. They don't like innovate on

966
01:23:25,284 --> 01:23:30,244
every new regulation. We're just like, okay, we do this part of what the FDA and what the WHO does,

967
01:23:30,704 --> 01:23:35,304
right? Especially for the safety stuff. That makes sense anyway. It's not the most extensive part.

968
01:23:35,544 --> 01:23:51,519
We just do the same stuff right It just like we can save a lot of money in the administration because the Garm Clinic or another clinic in Prosper that would do that or it has an IRB which can improve these studies And they just have a lower cost of doing business

969
01:23:51,519 --> 01:23:57,759
for the company. You need to pay 20K to get a meeting with the FDA, where it takes like three

970
01:23:57,759 --> 01:24:05,979
months. And then it costs 150K to submit your investigative new drug application. That's just

971
01:24:05,979 --> 01:24:11,439
like a lot of cost of doing business right so just by you can do the same rules but just like a more

972
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:15,299
startup more business-friendly administration they're often already save a lot of money

973
01:24:15,299 --> 01:24:20,219
right so and you know that explaining that to people sort of the difference between safety and

974
01:24:20,219 --> 01:24:26,259
how regulations work um that quickly resonates right and that we can especially do the safety

975
01:24:26,259 --> 01:24:32,899
stuff pretty much the same way it must be your hardest battle pr battle i would imagine not not

976
01:24:32,899 --> 01:24:41,119
least prosper has got its own problems but then the sort of biotech industry itself has even more

977
01:24:41,119 --> 01:24:46,459
versions of that and even harder and deeper and stronger versions of that i'd say

978
01:24:46,459 --> 01:24:54,899
stronger versions of that that narrative competing you know the prosperous problem is

979
01:24:54,899 --> 01:25:00,219
it's unregulated that's what people think oh it's this free-for-all which is fine but but in the

980
01:25:00,219 --> 01:25:05,979
biotech industry that's even worse i would imagine you know you're you're you're facing more

981
01:25:05,979 --> 01:25:11,519
almost see it as like um almost like i and i think it might be also an important learning for

982
01:25:11,519 --> 01:25:17,419
industry right so um it's a bit my suspicion i'm not sure i have enough experience to confirm

983
01:25:17,419 --> 01:25:25,259
but it's not a good idea to be too like hidden or not say like who you are right so we're kind

984
01:25:25,259 --> 01:25:31,979
of self-censoring kind of polishing our language like it's about like innovation or it's about like

985
01:25:31,979 --> 01:25:38,599
um you know you can have messages that are more kind of politically speaking to like a more

986
01:25:38,599 --> 01:25:45,199
mainstream audience and whatever and sort of hide yourself behind sort of press releases and things

987
01:25:45,199 --> 01:25:50,219
like that and i think that was sort of prosperous approach which was kind of my biggest critique

988
01:25:50,219 --> 01:25:56,219
so that they were not out there enough with their personal authentic voice.

989
01:25:56,359 --> 01:25:57,279
That's who we are.

990
01:25:57,879 --> 01:26:01,079
If you're trying to hide that you're libertarian or whatever

991
01:26:01,079 --> 01:26:05,279
and that you want to work on some of the future, people figure it out.

992
01:26:06,359 --> 01:26:10,719
Then they make up what you're not saying in their head or in their stories.

993
01:26:11,179 --> 01:26:12,379
Then they accuse you of things.

994
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:17,319
But when you're out there and telling the real story

995
01:26:17,319 --> 01:26:20,559
and sort of not hiding behind it, right?

996
01:26:20,599 --> 01:26:22,079
Sort of, hey, you know, yes,

997
01:26:22,119 --> 01:26:23,819
we want to do regulatory faster.

998
01:26:23,939 --> 01:26:24,979
We want to do things faster.

999
01:26:25,219 --> 01:26:27,039
And here's how we do it, right?

1000
01:26:27,119 --> 01:26:28,919
We're, you know, we're thoughtful about it.

1001
01:26:28,959 --> 01:26:30,319
We're not responsible about it.

1002
01:26:30,659 --> 01:26:32,999
So this way people don't have to make things up

1003
01:26:32,999 --> 01:26:33,699
on their minds.

1004
01:26:33,979 --> 01:26:35,659
And, you know, when, then when people

1005
01:26:35,659 --> 01:26:37,779
who are not yet on either side or the other

1006
01:26:37,779 --> 01:26:39,519
see the different stories and like,

1007
01:26:39,519 --> 01:26:42,719
hey, you know, this is actually a very thoughtful person.

1008
01:26:42,839 --> 01:26:44,479
And that article says there's no regulation.

1009
01:26:44,699 --> 01:26:45,479
Like, that's not true.

1010
01:26:45,819 --> 01:26:47,259
Like I listened to the person who's like,

1011
01:26:47,319 --> 01:26:55,259
I have their story in mind. So I do think we do want to be sort of genuine and authentic and

1012
01:26:55,259 --> 01:27:01,699
saying who we are and what we do. I do think we should under-highlight sort of the ideological

1013
01:27:01,699 --> 01:27:07,819
premise. So we should communicate what we do in terms of how it can add a benefit to you.

1014
01:27:08,159 --> 01:27:12,459
Not necessarily in like, this is like your libertarian enclave or paradise or whatever.

1015
01:27:12,459 --> 01:27:19,459
I think that's a mistake anyway to assume you need to build a society of libertarian society with libertarians, right?

1016
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:20,299
For various reasons.

1017
01:27:20,779 --> 01:27:31,859
I think as a free private city, you know, the underlying mechanisms, the underlying libertarian philosophy and economics works because it adds more value to people's lives, right?

1018
01:27:31,879 --> 01:27:38,359
And so we need to highlight that value that it adds to people's lives rather than making it about like your ideology or your model of the world.

1019
01:27:38,359 --> 01:27:44,119
and then i think you should have a story or a narrative um that is authentically and genuinely

1020
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:50,999
you put it out there tell people that story like i have honestly not gotten much if any strong

1021
01:27:50,999 --> 01:27:55,319
backlash like the whole biotech thing sort of you were saying hey maybe there's like you more than

1022
01:27:55,319 --> 01:28:02,539
prosper whatever for me personally it hasn't been right interesting i think you know maybe it is

1023
01:28:02,539 --> 01:28:08,039
you know and i'm not doing anything like special in the pr department but from the beginning i was

1024
01:28:08,039 --> 01:28:13,019
not trying to hide anything it's like yeah these are the chips here's how they work like here's the

1025
01:28:13,019 --> 01:28:17,379
gene therapy here's how it works here's how we do all the safety stuff right so i think that didn't

1026
01:28:17,379 --> 01:28:22,499
give people as much opportunity to like lie about it or present the story that is not true

1027
01:28:22,499 --> 01:28:30,019
i hear what you're saying about um not necessarily pitching prosper as a libertarian paradise or

1028
01:28:30,019 --> 01:28:35,859
whatever not least because even uttering the word libertarian already you're dealing with

1029
01:28:35,859 --> 01:28:43,159
a huge amount of different misconceptions and conceptions, perceptions in general about what

1030
01:28:43,159 --> 01:28:51,059
that even means. But also, I don't think it's even important. I mean, Morazan is a libertarian

1031
01:28:51,059 --> 01:28:56,999
utopia, basically, and there's not a single libertarian in there. I think it was Mark Edge

1032
01:28:56,999 --> 01:29:01,639
that said it. You don't need libertarians to create libertarian utopia. And that's a really,

1033
01:29:01,639 --> 01:29:08,919
really deep and important understanding to have i think like you're saying all you need to do is

1034
01:29:08,919 --> 01:29:15,699
tell people how it benefits them and by default they're probably aligning with a bunch of principles

1035
01:29:15,699 --> 01:29:21,159
which are quite libertarian in their nature and um yeah it's been a it's been an interesting

1036
01:29:21,159 --> 01:29:27,799
journey for me to come to that conclusion and and we now have a working example in not in um

1037
01:29:27,799 --> 01:29:33,259
in Morazan, the other Zedai, where it is. If you look at the way it runs and how it operates,

1038
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:37,939
it's very libertarian. But not a single person living in there even knows what that word means,

1039
01:29:37,979 --> 01:29:43,899
I would imagine. Exactly. And I think you see also in Morazan how community-oriented it is,

1040
01:29:44,299 --> 01:29:50,259
and how cooperative people are, and the same in Prospera. The experience very much there is

1041
01:29:50,259 --> 01:29:54,259
this very community-oriented, people are cooperating and helping each other a lot.

1042
01:29:54,259 --> 01:30:01,579
It's sort of the whole stereotype that libertarians, I think it's kind of a bit true.

1043
01:30:01,679 --> 01:30:08,039
I think there are some people that are kind of more on the kind of libertarian stereotype

1044
01:30:08,039 --> 01:30:13,099
that you'd expect sort of a bit less cooperative, like very focused kind of on themselves and

1045
01:30:13,099 --> 01:30:14,839
how to get an advantage out of that.

1046
01:30:15,379 --> 01:30:22,219
And these people in Prospera, I've seen, are not having the best time because they're not

1047
01:30:22,219 --> 01:30:25,779
integrating themselves well into the community.

1048
01:30:25,779 --> 01:30:29,359
And they're just not good at sort of the community cooperation

1049
01:30:29,359 --> 01:30:31,599
looking out for each other part, right?

1050
01:30:31,759 --> 01:30:36,259
So that's why it's very important to just not filter

1051
01:30:36,259 --> 01:30:37,599
just like for ideology.

1052
01:30:37,839 --> 01:30:38,799
I mean, that can help.

1053
01:30:38,959 --> 01:30:41,059
I think it can give people an additional kind of,

1054
01:30:41,159 --> 01:30:43,079
hey, I get why you guys are doing that.

1055
01:30:43,099 --> 01:30:44,159
And I'm excited about that.

1056
01:30:44,219 --> 01:30:45,139
I think that can change a lot.

1057
01:30:45,539 --> 01:30:47,999
But most of all, you want to select for people that are fit,

1058
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,299
like that vibe with the community, that fit in,

1059
01:30:51,299 --> 01:30:52,679
that have something to contribute.

1060
01:30:53,099 --> 01:30:55,999
And that just adds a lot of value to their lives, right?

1061
01:30:56,659 --> 01:30:59,479
And you generally build a society that's cooperative.

1062
01:30:59,819 --> 01:31:00,579
And that's very important.

1063
01:31:01,679 --> 01:31:03,439
Yeah, like we were saying earlier,

1064
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:05,639
this is a free market of living together.

1065
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:11,059
And hopefully, if it's not working for you,

1066
01:31:11,219 --> 01:31:13,119
you'll go to where it is working for you.

1067
01:31:13,579 --> 01:31:15,379
And if you can't find a place,

1068
01:31:15,399 --> 01:31:17,399
that might mean that the way you're doing it

1069
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:21,259
is not generally a good way to be doing things.

1070
01:31:21,299 --> 01:31:28,379
And that goes for very intense libertarians as well as communists and whoever, you know.

1071
01:31:29,559 --> 01:31:31,979
But yeah, that's what I love about it most.

1072
01:31:32,559 --> 01:31:40,939
Have you ever, can you give me a lowdown on what you know about sort of other potential projects around the world that you're actually excited about?

1073
01:31:41,019 --> 01:31:47,579
Especially in the boots on the ground kind of free private city or whatever kind of way.

1074
01:31:47,579 --> 01:31:58,299
because we hear so much about Prospera and obviously Morazan a bit less, but because you are living examples of what this model can produce.

1075
01:31:58,739 --> 01:32:04,219
But when you look at the rest of the kind of market of living together, there seems to be a lot in the pipeline,

1076
01:32:04,919 --> 01:32:09,979
a lot of sort of vaporware, which is just people creating ideas, but nothing really happening.

1077
01:32:09,979 --> 01:32:16,739
and then across the spectrum but I'm more interested in the really you know the boot

1078
01:32:16,739 --> 01:32:22,059
the you know like Prospera these kind of projects have you got wind of any other projects like that

1079
01:32:22,059 --> 01:32:35,454
around the world yeah I mean you know Prospera and Morazan I think are by far the leaders in the space right so I don see much that comes close at least when you care about the regulatory autonomy part right

1080
01:32:35,494 --> 01:32:41,674
So there are some of the private city projects in Africa, like Tatu City, for example, that

1081
01:32:41,674 --> 01:32:43,074
Tyler Cron has visited.

1082
01:32:43,874 --> 01:32:45,174
I think it's Steven Jennings.

1083
01:32:45,174 --> 01:32:50,654
So that's like a very serious business and sort of a scalable model to build a better

1084
01:32:50,654 --> 01:32:52,814
city with many of the services private.

1085
01:32:52,814 --> 01:32:58,734
and not sure how much that allows in terms of like legal or regulatory autonomy right so like

1086
01:32:58,734 --> 01:33:04,994
some of the indian private cities like gorgon or lavasa i think right so these are almost like

1087
01:33:04,994 --> 01:33:10,894
already sort of the more established um markets that's the more established projects on the market

1088
01:33:10,894 --> 01:33:20,014
right on the newer ones um you know i'm keen to see um how itana works out in nigeria right

1089
01:33:20,014 --> 01:33:26,434
he just recently had a change of ceo and i met the new ceo in zanzibar i think he's a really good guy

1090
01:33:26,434 --> 01:33:33,554
right so i think the concept of sort of having a delaware in nigeria sort of in terms of like the

1091
01:33:33,554 --> 01:33:38,574
business and corporation that you do and then like have a co-working space campus with good

1092
01:33:38,574 --> 01:33:44,634
functioning electricity especially in such a dense entrepreneurial hub such as lagos is i think a

1093
01:33:44,634 --> 01:33:51,274
very good idea. And, you know, besides the new CEO, Mayowa, there's also Ian Oluwa Abojeji behind it,

1094
01:33:51,714 --> 01:33:56,194
who is like the most iconic tech entrepreneur from Africa, right? So he's like a friend of

1095
01:33:56,194 --> 01:34:00,914
Joe Lonsdale and some of our friends who are supportive of this movement, right? So I think

1096
01:34:00,914 --> 01:34:08,094
that has tremendous potential. I haven't been there myself, but I find the model of small farm

1097
01:34:08,094 --> 01:34:13,934
cities in Malawi also very exciting, right? So at least in Pachulis Talang, that just makes a lot

1098
01:34:13,934 --> 01:34:20,234
sense when I see the videos. So similar to Morazan, but even on the agricultural side instead of the

1099
01:34:20,234 --> 01:34:26,954
blue collar worker side. So making these small farms and having a minimalist city community

1100
01:34:26,954 --> 01:34:32,654
and then teaching people there to how property rights work and how they formalize it,

1101
01:34:33,134 --> 01:34:36,854
giving them education in business. I think that's a very good model.

1102
01:34:36,854 --> 01:34:44,414
um but yeah um then there is not much um there's not much after that right so i do think um you

1103
01:34:44,414 --> 01:34:49,234
know what biology is doing um is exciting in malaysia right so i think he's collecting a lot

1104
01:34:49,234 --> 01:34:54,314
of experience and iterating there and he's not sure if you heard about that project yet in network

1105
01:34:54,314 --> 01:35:00,174
school he's yeah they've opened a natural education center there right is it a university

1106
01:35:00,174 --> 01:35:05,854
almost really yeah and it's like you know it's in this place close to singapore in malaysia

1107
01:35:05,854 --> 01:35:12,254
which has like 700 000 apartments like it's a ready-made city wow and it's empty it's a ghost

1108
01:35:12,254 --> 01:35:17,654
town right so it's been this like chinese real estate developer conglomerate and it's developed

1109
01:35:17,654 --> 01:35:22,674
it and then i don't know it was covet or something like the plants didn't pan out so it's a bit weird

1110
01:35:22,674 --> 01:35:28,014
it's a bit of a ghost town but on the other hand it's so much space available that has this very

1111
01:35:28,014 --> 01:35:34,414
nice solarpunk vibe sort of a nice speech and then you know biology is able to get a lot of people

1112
01:35:34,414 --> 01:35:39,954
there like and really good people from tech especially from asia from india right so um

1113
01:35:39,954 --> 01:35:43,974
you know he's someone who's iterating very fast so maybe you can also get like meaningful autonomy

1114
01:35:43,974 --> 01:35:50,174
there so i think definitely a force to be reckoned with right and i haven't read yet much about it

1115
01:35:50,174 --> 01:35:55,554
but very much looking forward to like titus's new project right so not sure if that's yet public

1116
01:35:55,554 --> 01:36:00,754
right it's public but not spoken about just yet because it's going through a lot of

1117
01:36:00,754 --> 01:36:06,674
you know as you discovered the first year two years it's very important to be

1118
01:36:07,254 --> 01:36:13,314
pretend under the radar because you know otherwise too many conclusions get drawn before

1119
01:36:13,314 --> 01:36:19,574
something substantial exists and and it's true it's absolutely true it's a great insight to get

1120
01:36:19,574 --> 01:36:26,894
actually because the sometimes the the you know you feel this urge to talk about something really

1121
01:36:26,894 --> 01:36:34,934
especially in this space because we have um so many potential projects and everyone wants to be

1122
01:36:34,934 --> 01:36:39,674
the next person to say wow we've got a new free city that's being built but actually we're playing

1123
01:36:39,674 --> 01:36:45,454
the long game here and everyone knows that we are playing the long game and um it may not be

1124
01:36:45,454 --> 01:36:51,734
something we we ever see in our own lifetimes but it doesn't matter this is a sort of this is a

1125
01:36:51,734 --> 01:36:56,874
change that's happening and it doesn't just change like that we're we're living through that time in

1126
01:36:56,874 --> 01:37:02,714
history where we're probably at the complete opposite end of the spectrum complete you know

1127
01:37:02,714 --> 01:37:08,454
we we're talking about moving the sort of like you know the goalpost just to the center even

1128
01:37:08,454 --> 01:37:10,674
is going to take a long time.

1129
01:37:10,674 --> 01:37:15,354
So, yeah, it's one of those things.

1130
01:37:16,034 --> 01:37:19,874
Actually, I can see we've been quite a long time already,

1131
01:37:19,954 --> 01:37:22,114
but I've got one last question before we go.

1132
01:37:23,474 --> 01:37:24,654
What about the future?

1133
01:37:25,334 --> 01:37:27,214
And let's talk Prosper here,

1134
01:37:27,274 --> 01:37:28,874
since you're the man on the ground in Prosper.

1135
01:37:30,574 --> 01:37:32,254
What do you see?

1136
01:37:34,014 --> 01:37:37,674
What do you expect and what do you want to unfold?

1137
01:37:38,454 --> 01:37:44,154
over the next period of time i don't know you choose the time period yourself

1138
01:37:44,154 --> 01:37:50,354
yeah i mean um so this year is of course very crucial i mean my thesis has always been

1139
01:37:50,354 --> 01:37:55,434
right if we make prosper work as sort of the flagship and if we can prove that we survive

1140
01:37:55,434 --> 01:38:01,874
like even a hostile socialist government then i think that can like give our industry you know

1141
01:38:01,874 --> 01:38:09,254
free cities, a 10x boost. And I think that's necessary because when more people are doing it,

1142
01:38:09,334 --> 01:38:15,394
then it's more robust. Then people kind of get the value out of it. And why haven't we been doing

1143
01:38:15,394 --> 01:38:22,194
that before? I think broadly speaking, Prosper is an example of a model that works as a win-win

1144
01:38:22,194 --> 01:38:27,434
for existing governments. So that's, I think, the very crucial part about it. So I think at any

1145
01:38:27,434 --> 01:38:31,654
given time, there are like, you know, 10, 15, 20 governments that are open to these things.

1146
01:38:31,954 --> 01:38:36,134
And now that we have more experience, how to actually get deals and how to actually like

1147
01:38:36,134 --> 01:38:41,834
build stuff and how to survive even against setbacks or whatever, the things we need to

1148
01:38:41,834 --> 01:38:46,554
put in place against that is on the legal side and on the PR side and things like that.

1149
01:38:46,554 --> 01:38:52,414
I think that will be tremendously valuable, right? So like to see sort of hundreds of projects

1150
01:38:52,414 --> 01:38:56,754
in the next 15, 20 years,

1151
01:38:57,314 --> 01:38:58,434
like successful projects.

1152
01:38:59,234 --> 01:39:00,914
And sort of my goal is,

1153
01:39:00,974 --> 01:39:01,714
or my contribution,

1154
01:39:02,334 --> 01:39:05,174
I want this especially to fit new technology.

1155
01:39:05,914 --> 01:39:08,334
So I think new technology like biotech

1156
01:39:08,334 --> 01:39:08,974
and like crypto,

1157
01:39:09,234 --> 01:39:10,534
like the robotics and all of that,

1158
01:39:11,194 --> 01:39:13,254
just the current regulatory model or paradigm

1159
01:39:13,254 --> 01:39:14,194
just doesn't work.

1160
01:39:14,814 --> 01:39:16,694
So we're slowing things down

1161
01:39:16,694 --> 01:39:20,754
and that is to the detriment of progress

1162
01:39:20,754 --> 01:39:23,954
for that the entire humanity could benefit from, right?

1163
01:39:23,954 --> 01:39:28,414
So I'd like to see these new cities harbor like the next SpaceX

1164
01:39:28,414 --> 01:39:30,714
or the next like space station.

1165
01:39:31,574 --> 01:39:34,874
And, you know, maybe my dream was always when I read science fiction

1166
01:39:34,874 --> 01:39:37,134
I was young that we have sort of an underwater city

1167
01:39:37,134 --> 01:39:40,174
and a city above the clouds and something like that, right?

1168
01:39:40,214 --> 01:39:44,434
But we're really able to build the industries of the future there

1169
01:39:44,434 --> 01:39:47,414
and are building sort of accelerating

1170
01:39:47,414 --> 01:39:54,174
and bringing to the science and technology that we have at hand to benefit all of humanity,

1171
01:39:54,374 --> 01:39:59,794
right? So the improved governance, I think, to me, is the vehicle for all that positive change that

1172
01:39:59,794 --> 01:40:06,014
can come out of technology. You mentioned earlier, actually, that one of your first inroads into this

1173
01:40:06,014 --> 01:40:11,134
world was through seasteading. Is that right? You're hearing about the ideas around seasteading.

1174
01:40:11,134 --> 01:40:18,614
now seasteading and biotech to me are literally best friends and floating cities off off the coast

1175
01:40:18,614 --> 01:40:27,154
of you know continents and or like that seems like the perfect way to use a floating city i mean

1176
01:40:27,154 --> 01:40:32,114
is anyone talking about that at prosper because you've obviously an island not that you'd necessarily

1177
01:40:32,114 --> 01:40:37,794
need i mean you've got the land-based version but yeah yeah i mean in prosper i think it's a bit less

1178
01:40:37,794 --> 01:40:41,794
feasible right because of the coral reefs like it has a barrier reef and that you know we want

1179
01:40:41,794 --> 01:40:47,374
to meticulously protect right so there's not much to talk about there recently but i love seasteading

1180
01:40:47,374 --> 01:40:53,134
like in fact i was like having the idea of seasteading before i knew it existed right so i was

1181
01:40:53,134 --> 01:40:58,174
like on this long hike once in like laos or something like that and i thought that was like

1182
01:40:58,174 --> 01:41:03,654
the coolest idea ever i even started drafting like a novel that was about seasteading like the

1183
01:41:03,654 --> 01:41:07,614
political changes that would come with it and i didn't know about pottery and about resetting at

1184
01:41:07,614 --> 01:41:20,449
the time So I think that definitely a seasteading I would be very excited to have seasteading as the ultimate frontier i think what it ultimately depends on is you know some important breakthroughs

1185
01:41:20,449 --> 01:41:25,969
in technology and to make it cost viable plus like some of the legal challenges that patrie

1186
01:41:25,969 --> 01:41:32,049
always talks about would like the flag or whatever but um i i do see seasteading as kind of still

1187
01:41:32,049 --> 01:41:39,489
part of the ultimate ideal for sure yeah me too as well but it is the most i don't know it's not

1188
01:41:39,489 --> 01:41:45,589
it's not radical but it is the most you know i speak to joe quirk a lot on this podcast and i

1189
01:41:45,589 --> 01:41:53,009
just got utmost respect for him staying with it because when you hear the ideas of seasteading

1190
01:41:53,009 --> 01:41:58,789
it's amazing it's true everything he says is true everything he says about you know having a city

1191
01:41:58,789 --> 01:42:04,969
that can move is perfect and works and the technology is not too far away even for the big

1192
01:42:04,969 --> 01:42:12,689
ones and but really it's just one of those ideas that i think yeah 100 years maybe 200 years maybe

1193
01:42:12,689 --> 01:42:18,869
you know but he's just grinding every day trying to get people to understand that this is this is

1194
01:42:18,869 --> 01:42:25,929
this is going to happen and i think it will because it makes so much sense and in fact you know it is

1195
01:42:25,929 --> 01:42:35,309
it is a stage on from prosper it's like prosper with another defense mechanism which is okay we

1196
01:42:35,309 --> 01:42:40,549
can actually go you know we get if the socialists want to come in and shut us down it's like well

1197
01:42:40,549 --> 01:42:45,429
hell we're just going to move somewhere else then which is quite mind-blowing in in one sense and

1198
01:42:45,429 --> 01:42:52,169
if if prosper works i would say if prosper lives and thrives into the future i would say

1199
01:42:52,169 --> 01:42:59,349
that people will then understand we need to make floating cities because there is there

1200
01:42:59,349 --> 01:43:04,949
people will hopefully choose the what especially in a regulatory environment or in if you want an

1201
01:43:04,949 --> 01:43:11,069
independence they will choose the one that is the safest for their for what they want and moving

1202
01:43:11,069 --> 01:43:18,669
cities is a step up from sedentary cities like prosper you know um so yeah i mean i just i just

1203
01:43:18,669 --> 01:43:25,969
can't believe people can think and and promote them so hard now and i just think of them as a

1204
01:43:25,969 --> 01:43:31,629
futuristic technology but i suppose you probably have a similar a similar angle on biotech because

1205
01:43:31,629 --> 01:43:36,949
a lot of what the biotech stuff and the robotic stuff it's all i don't know we're just going

1206
01:43:36,949 --> 01:43:43,129
through that period aren't we this acceleration of people having crazy ideas and 10 years later

1207
01:43:43,129 --> 01:43:45,989
they're suddenly popping up in real life.

1208
01:43:46,889 --> 01:43:47,409
Yeah.

1209
01:43:47,969 --> 01:43:48,489
Yeah.

1210
01:43:48,569 --> 01:43:53,849
I mean, ultimately, that's what we want, right?

1211
01:43:54,049 --> 01:43:56,469
And I think we underestimate how precious that is.

1212
01:43:57,109 --> 01:44:01,329
I think the impression that we're doing a ton of progress

1213
01:44:01,329 --> 01:44:03,789
is not entirely true, right?

1214
01:44:03,829 --> 01:44:06,449
So you might have heard Peter Thiel talk about that

1215
01:44:06,449 --> 01:44:08,129
in The Great Stagnation, right?

1216
01:44:08,169 --> 01:44:10,609
So you had much of the innovation in the world of bits,

1217
01:44:10,609 --> 01:44:12,409
but much less so in the world of atoms.

1218
01:44:13,129 --> 01:44:18,909
let's learn, mask is really the notable exception, but you know, what if, and then if you look like

1219
01:44:18,909 --> 01:44:23,909
why that is, you know, of course it's like cultural or whatever. Um, but I do think the

1220
01:44:23,909 --> 01:44:29,069
regulatory part plays more of a role than people think, right. It's often like very specific,

1221
01:44:29,069 --> 01:44:35,309
like the nuclear regulatory commission, the EPA and all of that, um, that you could just like

1222
01:44:35,309 --> 01:44:40,749
not have. Right. And I just do think it has an impact, um, right. Because as an entrepreneur

1223
01:44:40,749 --> 01:44:42,609
and going through all these bureaucratic hoops,

1224
01:44:42,749 --> 01:44:44,109
you're just less likely to do it.

1225
01:44:44,589 --> 01:44:46,769
You have to be someone of the gravitaser stamina

1226
01:44:46,769 --> 01:44:48,329
of Elon Musk to do that.

1227
01:44:48,789 --> 01:44:51,569
And I think with much less of that and prosper,

1228
01:44:51,729 --> 01:44:54,289
I think we can have like a 50x improvement

1229
01:44:54,289 --> 01:44:55,729
in terms of the regulation.

1230
01:44:56,609 --> 01:44:59,249
Maybe, and I do think there is a reason to believe

1231
01:44:59,249 --> 01:45:02,369
that gives you 50 times more Elon Musk's,

1232
01:45:02,489 --> 01:45:05,289
or the Elon Musk that exists can do more.

1233
01:45:06,189 --> 01:45:07,589
And I think that's a good thing.

1234
01:45:07,589 --> 01:45:13,869
right so you know i rather have sort of more influence and power by people like you on mask

1235
01:45:13,869 --> 01:45:17,969
even though you know i don't believe i don't agree with everything he says rather than you

1236
01:45:17,969 --> 01:45:23,429
know with the current nation states and governments right so i think a future where the entrepreneurs

1237
01:45:23,429 --> 01:45:27,929
really the driving force or the engine of creation in the world sort of you know the randian

1238
01:45:27,929 --> 01:45:34,329
archetype or whatever i do think if we make that work then you know i think our world could be a

1239
01:45:34,329 --> 01:45:40,409
much better place and we could truly accelerate in so many of these areas including the sea setting

1240
01:45:40,409 --> 01:45:46,789
and going to other planets and things like that and sort of even potentially reversing or halting

1241
01:45:46,789 --> 01:45:53,369
or reversing aging right and make us live far longer or even give us a choice as to when we

1242
01:45:53,369 --> 01:45:59,129
you know for how long we're able to we want to be on this planet i think it's no coincidence that

1243
01:45:59,129 --> 01:46:07,149
the stagnation of technological advance and innovation seems to coincide with a period in

1244
01:46:07,149 --> 01:46:10,889
time when the state is the largest has ever been in the history of the world. I think

1245
01:46:10,889 --> 01:46:18,989
we all understand that, especially over here in Europe, you see innovators shaking their heads,

1246
01:46:19,589 --> 01:46:22,549
saying, no, we're not going to do that here. Let's go and try and find somewhere where we can

1247
01:46:22,549 --> 01:46:28,009
actually do what we want to do. And that's the situation we find ourselves in. And

1248
01:46:28,009 --> 01:46:35,289
prospera and places like prospera are at the front sharp end of the wedge in in innovating

1249
01:46:35,289 --> 01:46:41,489
this you know and changing it hopefully i think you're already seeing that it is it is working

1250
01:46:41,489 --> 01:46:45,949
and it is changing well nicholas thanks thanks for spending some time shame we didn't get to do

1251
01:46:45,949 --> 01:46:53,989
in person but um i i want to come over and um take a look around again soon i don't know when

1252
01:46:53,989 --> 01:46:58,849
it will be because it's a long way from here but yes maybe in september in september we have to

1253
01:46:58,849 --> 01:47:04,549
bio frontiers month including a summit on september five to seven what does that involve

1254
01:47:04,549 --> 01:47:11,329
what will that involve if i came in september then yeah so we have a lot of um we do this month

1255
01:47:11,329 --> 01:47:16,129
kind of for people who want to explore living in prospera and in this case we're specifically

1256
01:47:16,129 --> 01:47:21,349
speaking to entrepreneurs in biotech and health care but not everyone will be that right so they

1257
01:47:21,349 --> 01:47:25,989
will come from able to other things it will just be like a good time it will be you know very busy

1258
01:47:25,989 --> 01:47:32,369
very fun and very exciting um to let us go living in prosper and then um we're encouraging people to

1259
01:47:32,369 --> 01:47:37,249
do some of their own like science experiments bring new therapies that people could do here

1260
01:47:37,249 --> 01:47:44,349
you know work with the clinic um to offer some of these things um you know the usual conference of

1261
01:47:44,349 --> 01:47:49,809
course we'll have like some very cool biotech companies and ceos and some of the major speakers

1262
01:47:49,809 --> 01:47:52,829
in the longevity field and in the science coming.

1263
01:47:53,549 --> 01:47:58,369
So I think a very good time to explore living in Prosper.

1264
01:47:58,729 --> 01:48:02,309
Just out of interest, where do people stay when they come now?

1265
01:48:03,489 --> 01:48:04,889
In Duna predominantly.

1266
01:48:05,489 --> 01:48:05,749
Duna.

1267
01:48:05,909 --> 01:48:09,809
So Duna has a lot of rental units as well for situations like this.

1268
01:48:10,749 --> 01:48:10,929
Yeah.

1269
01:48:10,929 --> 01:48:15,649
So as I mentioned, sort of about half is probably filled with permanent residence

1270
01:48:15,649 --> 01:48:16,909
and the other half is seasonal.

1271
01:48:16,909 --> 01:48:20,989
and of course there's plenty of spaces outside where you can stay and of course like pristine

1272
01:48:20,989 --> 01:48:25,449
bay or las verandas right so we still have like infinita dome in the pristine bay vicinity

1273
01:48:25,449 --> 01:48:29,909
so we do some of the larger conferences there so from las verandas you have an easy way there

1274
01:48:29,909 --> 01:48:35,389
and did i see recently that there are now 20 20 bucks a night places to stay

1275
01:48:35,389 --> 01:48:42,629
in in prospero is that right for for yes we built a new hostel right so we produce like from local

1276
01:48:42,629 --> 01:48:48,349
materials um you know one of our guys in the community um a hundred guy who builds like these

1277
01:48:48,349 --> 01:48:54,329
bunk beds and we use some of the model units um to have a hospital so we can stay now for 20 bucks

1278
01:48:54,329 --> 01:49:00,069
a night i i mean it's not it's nice i wouldn't i wouldn't underplay it i saw the photos it looks

1279
01:49:00,069 --> 01:49:07,249
beautiful it looks lush you know beautiful but um you make it sound like it's a it's a hostel but

1280
01:49:07,249 --> 01:49:10,749
It's actually nice from what I saw anyway.

1281
01:49:11,249 --> 01:49:11,549
Great.

1282
01:49:11,689 --> 01:49:12,069
Well, thanks.

1283
01:49:12,069 --> 01:49:12,569
It's a very nice house.

1284
01:49:12,709 --> 01:49:14,849
I'll try and make it in September.

1285
01:49:15,589 --> 01:49:21,169
But I suppose it would be a great place to do a round of interviews, wouldn't it, at that particular time?

1286
01:49:21,669 --> 01:49:26,249
I probably do a Prosper update and right close to the election as well.

1287
01:49:26,489 --> 01:49:29,709
So, you know, also interesting time.

1288
01:49:30,209 --> 01:49:30,669
Well, great.

1289
01:49:30,809 --> 01:49:31,949
Good luck with everything.

1290
01:49:32,209 --> 01:49:34,009
And thanks for chatting.

1291
01:49:34,049 --> 01:49:35,269
It's been great for an update.

1292
01:49:35,269 --> 01:49:40,629
I'm going to put this one out quickly so everyone can sort of get their latest on, you know, on what's going on there.

1293
01:49:41,669 --> 01:49:43,469
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on, Tim.