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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 161 of the Free Cities podcast brought to you by the

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wonderful Veritas Villages. They are building off-grid freedom-oriented communities in Latin

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America but you already knew that didn't you? You're a regular listener to this show. You also

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know that these communities will appeal to people who like freedom and who are looking to live

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amongst like-minded people in places like Nicaragua, Panama and Costa Rica. And for the Bitcoiners,

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you also know you can buy your property with Bitcoin and you can spend Bitcoin at communities.

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They can even help you mine Bitcoin with the excess energy that your home will inevitably

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produce. www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities. Now, before I break down this episode,

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I want to implore you to listen to the end if you're interested, because after the conversation, I have dropped a small narrated addendum to this episode during the interview with today's guest, Sven.

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Sven Lorenz, he's a returning guest.

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He mentioned that he was going to write an article about what's been going on in Sark recently because so many people were coming up to him and asking him in real life.

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Now, he wrote that article and he wrote it just after our conversation.

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So I read it and I've compared it to our conversation.

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So I've added a few things which have transpired since we spoke.

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So make sure you carry on listening at the end.

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And now if you're a listener to this podcast, you'll hopefully know Sven.

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Sven's been on before.

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He's a Sark resident who was at the centre of the recent bid to rejuvenate the island

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by buying up the Flailing Sark property portfolio of the Barclay family.

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I'll put a link to my last interview with Sven in the show notes.

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He appeared alongside the senior of Sark.

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and between the two of them they gave me an overview of the island how it operates what it is

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and the problems it was facing at the time so that's a good sort of starter interview if you

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don't really know what SARC is and what's been going on there this episode is an update on the

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current situation in SARC since the bid to buy the property and rejuvenate the island which failed

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and i also talk with sven about the wider issue of confidence in government in general

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uh right here's the summary for the curious in this conversation sven reflects on sark as a

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microcosm of wider structural pressures facing small jurisdictions and increasingly europe

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itself he offers a sober assessment of an island grappling with stagnation demographic imbalance

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and missed opportunities for renewal, including a high profile investment effort that ultimately failed to materialize.

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That's the Sark bid, of course.

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From Sark, the discussion broadens into questions of capital, mobility and confidence in the future.

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Why people are beginning to move their money away and themselves.

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How governments respond when that happens and what it means to think seriously about where and how to build a life

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and a business in an era of growing constraint that's a pretty good summary actually and

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i did ask my ai to to speak a little bit more highbrow that actually does sound much better

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so well done ai i will try and be brief in this intro because i'm also going to record the addendum

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after this but a little bit of housekeeping there won't be any value for value comments this week

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sorry i mentioned that last week but then i've just realized that we're heading into the christmas

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holidays so I'm having to queue up three episodes in order to be able to actually take some time off

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over Christmas so unfortunately I won't have the comments to speak of what I will do instead is a

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bumper episode in the new year to kick the new year off let's say and in the meantime please

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consider subscribing to this podcast on fountain.fm I say this every week but it really does help this

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week you've got a bonus episode that was an interview with me talking about the state of the

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UK and early access to the normal show the show with Mark Edge that's six bucks a month please

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subscribe on Fountain with Bitcoin preferably or Fiat I also published last week a news episode

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it was a little experiment and it went down incredibly well that was a preview of the current

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goings-on in the honda and general elections which i gleaned from a big conversation that we had

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directly with our friends and colleagues in the country so from now on i'm going to start doing

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those much more regularly not on a particular day because news in this industry comes when it comes

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let's say so i'll be doing them as and when but subscribers you'll get early access to those too

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you lucky things right this is all part of the expansion plans that i have for this podcast

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interest is growing we're getting a lot of listeners and as we both grow as a media producer

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and as the industry grows in general it makes total sense to me to expand so that's what's

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going to be happening i'm going to be adding new bonus episodes new news episodes and possibly more

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i'm taking on quite a lot it's it's it's true but i can just see what's happening here in this

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industry we're starting to explode and i think it's important that we are there and we are at

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the center of it all as we currently are but going forward too right that's enough from me

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time for the conversation you know what to do other than of course fantasizing about living

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car free on a small quiet island off the coast of France. Yes, that's right. Just sit back,

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relax and enjoy my conversation with Sven Lorenz.

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Sven, excellent. Do you know what I just did?

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um i was like you know since since i last spoke to you i haven't really had any sort of sark updates

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or or any not even that many thoughts about it it's kind of like because it was all building up

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to such a crescendo it then fell off a cliff so what i just did was i i just did google news

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sark uk i thought i better see i but it's very very funny what what came out you know i was

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expecting to see drama with the barclay brothers and blah blah let me tell you the last this is the

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most recent six articles written about sark and this is just classic sark number one is the most

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recent sark tractor license fees could double as sark budget debate right number two winter ferry

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changes are really hard for sark pupils number three sark needs to put economic development top

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of agenda. That's the

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most radical one.

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Four, Sark dairy farmers give up.

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That sounds sad. So they had

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a UK farmer set up a dairy farm and they closed it now The Sark crew tackles very tricky cliff fire And the final one rare diseases sufferer

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Thanks, lifesavers in Sark.

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Basically, Sark doing Sark things.

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No one really mentioning we need, apart from that one thing, which is Sark.

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This is the Guernsey Press as well.

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The others are BBC, all BBC.

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You know, Sark needs to put economic development top of agenda.

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But all the rest of it seemed pretty depressing.

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Things closing down, things shutting.

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So, like, come on, you're the man on the ground.

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What's happening in Sark right now, regardless of all the other stuff?

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Is it, you know, did Sark have a bit of a lull after the result of all your sort of work came through?

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Or were people on the island not as invested in the idea so much as you were, obviously?

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So I'm obviously biased and I'm talking up my own book, but my expectation after our deal didn't come through was always that SARC at best was going to stagnate and probably was actually going to gently slide downhill.

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And I think it is a reasonable and possibly even quite objective assessment to say that this year SARC has definitely gone downhill, possibly edged towards call it crisis.

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Yesterday, the budget came out.

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Chief Police, the Parliament of the Ireland, has to approve the budget every year,

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and that meeting is coming up.

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My taxes are going up 21%.

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And that's a lot, considering, because they're not much, anyway.

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In percentage terms, it's a lot.

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Taxes across the board are going up massively.

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It's now being recognized that there is a backlog of infrastructure investments

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and more financial obligations coming down the road.

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I would say that even though there are no official statistics,

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businesses in Saak have generally not done all that well this year.

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You hear different things from different people.

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But what you can say is that the quality of tourism seems to decline further.

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We have the so-called T and P tourists,

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which are the worst kind of tourists

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because they're basically day trippers

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who come to the island often from cruise ships.

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They buy a tea, they use the facilities

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so they're basically costing the money

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because you need infrastructure for them

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and they don't really leave revenue on the island.

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And all of that is indicative of an island

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that I think it's a bit like, you know,

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the general situation in Europe

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where yes, things are great in a way

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and much of the rest of the world

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would love to have the same problems

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but it's sort of declining.

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It's, you know, cynics would say

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or would ask, have they given up the will to live?

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And is anything ever going to improve?

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And I think the headlines that you picked

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from the news sources there.

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I didn't even pick them.

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Indicative.

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That was it.

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That's all I had to go on.

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Yeah, I mean.

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Yes, and that's before you have mentioned

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the never-ending drama about the electricity company,

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which has now led to Guernsey offering a loan of a million and a half,

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which would not even begin to cover the investments needed,

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but would in a way move SARC away from being debt-free

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and not being answerable to anyone to then having a creditor

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that happens to be the neighboring bigger island.

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Are these developments that would make me, you know,

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enthuse me to buy a house there, build a business, invest into the future. No, I'm very happy to live

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there. I'm very open about I'm using the special status of Sark for my own advantage. I'm also

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giving something back to the community. I do pay my taxes. But am I building a future there? Not at

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all. I've said for years I'm renting because this island has huge issues. And they could only be

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unblocked, in my opinion, through either a major investment or a major initiative,

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everyone coming together, something big has to happen. All this small stuff that's being done,

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you know, if it's even getting done at all. I mean, you know, the electricity saga has been

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rumbling on for so many years that I've long stopped following it. It's not very inspiring,

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and it's a great place to live. If you're older, you know, then you can say, yeah,

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I'll just live out my days.

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You know, it's good enough for me.

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But is there a future for young people?

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Is there a prosperous, confident future for Sark as an independent and truly unique entity?

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There's a question mark.

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It strikes me a little bit, like you say.

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It's like there was an opportunity for massive change.

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and because it wasn't taken even sark with its such a small government goes back and does

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government things it's like we need more money so let's take more money let you know the opportunity

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was there for a solution and because it wasn't taken now and this is what i see in mainland

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uk you know like there's a failing government that's broke which is slowly fleecing people

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instead of basically inviting people to come in,

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bring their capital, bring all their productivity,

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and then sort of correct the problem that way.

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The way they seem to be addressing it is by saying,

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no, do you know what?

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Let's try and rinse a little bit more money out of the people

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that we've got, or maybe try and borrow a bit more.

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It seems like maybe the Sark government,

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even though it's tiny, is still doing the same thing.

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Pretty much.

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And I mean, this is where we're getting into politics and personalities.

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But I would say even more so after the recent wave of members of parliament stepping down.

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So there was another article that might pop up somewhere on Google if you look for it about, I think, in the last 12 months, six members of Sarg's parliament have stepped down, which is a third of them.

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And for what?

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I mean, not some, you know, just because they don't believe in the place anymore or because they.

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it's always a combination of reasons and i can't speak for them but i can you know point towards

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what they've said in public and which was printed in the media which is along the lines of

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not being heard no new ideas being considered sarg being run by a small elite that wants to keep you

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know other people from having a say even though they're member of parliament i mean none of this

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is unusual that's politics everywhere it's a microcosm of the uk it really isn't it i am

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For a long time, I've been saying that Sark's problems and challenges and also opportunities are really not all that unique.

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It's sort of like the same in every small island jurisdiction around the world.

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And sadly, now I'm inclined to say its problems and where it finds itself is not too dissimilar from the rest of Europe.

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Always with a caveat or with the addition that Sark is sort of at least 50 years behind the rest of Europe in many ways.

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which is the saving grace.

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So, you know, welfare entitlements have not grown out of proportions

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because there just basically is hardly any welfare system.

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And there is no major issue with debt that's been accumulated by governments.

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But it's going in that direction,

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and you can only live off past achievements for so long.

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And the demographics of the place, I think, are quite telling.

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There's the old saying that demography is destiny,

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and the average age of SAAC is now above 60 again.

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and I think I can say that now that I'm above 50 myself you know from a certain age you think

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differently and you probably also care less about the future because it's not going to be your future

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you just want to hold on to what you've got and this is the generational conflict that exists

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elsewhere in the world in across Europe and there was a certain period during the pandemic when

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sarks population was rejuvenated to a certain extent I had a bit of a hand in that and we've

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had churn in the meantime and things going back somewhat towards you know where we used to be in

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the average age is I think now I don think there an up official statistic but I would say just walking around you see the place is old It also physically falling apart And none of that is you know again coming back to what I said earlier inspiring to build a future in SAC

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That said, I'm having a great time there.

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My taxes, even though they're up 21%, I think most people would love to be in my place.

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It's all relative, you know, we're complaining about things that are actually not that bad.

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I take it your tax increase isn't a tractor license.

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What caused 21% of your taxes to go up then?

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Is that income tax or something?

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So we have a simple system in SARC, but it has several options.

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And I'll just explain one because that's the one that applies to me.

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You can basically say in simplified terms, I don't want to declare income.

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I don't want to declare assets.

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Instead, I pay a sort of flat tax that is based on the size of the property I inhabit.

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as owner or as tenant.

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And that's what I do.

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And the budget has come out.

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SARC needs money.

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SARC has been burning through its reserves for years.

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There's virtually nothing left now,

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which is very different to where SARC used to stand.

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Interestingly enough, it used to be pre-democracy,

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pre-2008 when democracy was introduced,

218
00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:56,716
that SARC actually, from what I know,

219
00:17:57,056 --> 00:17:58,896
had significant reserves.

220
00:17:59,096 --> 00:18:01,936
And they've been spent over the years.

221
00:18:01,976 --> 00:18:11,056
so now to generate more revenue taxes need to go up and 21 percent is you know for me it's not

222
00:18:11,056 --> 00:18:16,116
a big deal being very honest about it but for someone who has you know who lives off a regular

223
00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:21,156
employment salary i don't think their employment their salary is going up 21 percent this year

224
00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:26,096
different people have different increases i heard someone say 14 percent yesterday it depends a bit

225
00:18:26,096 --> 00:18:29,336
on your circumstances but yeah it's a massive increase and it's just indicative of what's

226
00:18:29,336 --> 00:18:32,716
happening and you you read the budget and you know exactly it's not going to be enough

227
00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:39,156
another victim of democracy then we can say quite quite uh i would i would also

228
00:18:39,156 --> 00:18:46,036
possibly democratic system possibly even more so lack of planning because issues that are arising

229
00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:50,416
now which are costing money have long been known could have been planned for could have been dealt

230
00:18:50,416 --> 00:18:57,556
with in a more uh creative way and that's what i mean about the democratic process though because

231
00:18:57,556 --> 00:19:01,356
often that is the result you get, trying to get consensus.

232
00:19:02,016 --> 00:19:05,536
If someone, and I think if I understand correctly,

233
00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:10,676
prior to the democratic system, it was a top-down system.

234
00:19:11,436 --> 00:19:16,916
Top-down, but dominated or operated by the landowners

235
00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:19,676
who have multi-generational interests

236
00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:22,956
rather than wanting to get through the next year's budget

237
00:19:22,956 --> 00:19:24,256
or the next election.

238
00:19:24,416 --> 00:19:26,216
That was the difference in my view.

239
00:19:26,216 --> 00:19:29,556
There's a lot of feudalist nostalgia on SAC when you speak to people.

240
00:19:30,336 --> 00:19:42,736
I don't think I asked this at the time, but when you were trying to generate the investment to sort of replenish the place,

241
00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:48,696
did you talk about the governance model changing or was it going to be considered exactly the same?

242
00:19:48,696 --> 00:20:03,476
Not at all. We would have never done that because we did not want to be seen to be even considering to do the same thing as the current large portfolio owners that everyone knows of have done in the past.

243
00:20:03,816 --> 00:20:07,616
We were not going to tell the place how it needs to be run.

244
00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:11,296
There is an existing system which we think is attractive overall.

245
00:20:11,436 --> 00:20:13,136
It has its flaws, but you can work with it.

246
00:20:13,136 --> 00:20:21,436
So whatever changes on the governance level would always be up to the voters, not any large investor.

247
00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:26,116
I mean, how much can you say about what actually happened?

248
00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:29,216
I mean, I know, obviously, a deal wasn't struck.

249
00:20:29,836 --> 00:20:34,416
But can you elaborate a bit on what the problem was or why it didn't happen?

250
00:20:34,896 --> 00:20:40,356
Because it seemed obviously, from my perspective at least, it seemed like a massive opportunity.

251
00:20:40,356 --> 00:20:47,696
and I think if what you're saying now about the fact that since then things aren't going great I'd

252
00:20:47,696 --> 00:20:54,056
say obviously and for no one right exactly there's no winners here there's absolutely no winners

253
00:20:54,056 --> 00:21:00,256
um so it's a no-brainer for me that getting the massive amount of investment would have been great

254
00:21:00,256 --> 00:21:06,256
other than maybe for some 60 to 70 year old people who just want to be left alone and don't want

255
00:21:06,256 --> 00:21:11,176
you know possibly I don't really know I've never even been there but can you explain kind of what

256
00:21:11,176 --> 00:21:17,656
happened and what you know it's actually pretty simple and I've never been shy to summarize what

257
00:21:17,656 --> 00:21:24,336
happened from my perspective so officially and on the surface we simply could not agree on a price

258
00:21:24,336 --> 00:21:31,196
for the transaction and you could in a way leave it at that but then you can also speculate whether

259
00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:39,776
any price would have gotten the transaction done and there may be legal or other reasons

260
00:21:39,776 --> 00:21:46,976
on the side of large property owners of SARC for why they didn't or maybe couldn't accept

261
00:21:46,976 --> 00:21:57,396
an offer or in fact any offer and I'm sort of I'd be you know I'd be risking getting into trouble

262
00:21:57,396 --> 00:22:01,156
for you know spelling that out further because that's you know like getting into all sorts of

263
00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:06,976
legal uh quandaries and slander and all sorts of stuff and i really honestly i don't care

264
00:22:06,976 --> 00:22:14,376
what was important for me is that we raised the money we had a plan a proposal and

265
00:22:14,376 --> 00:22:19,936
it wasn't accepted it didn't go anywhere and that's fine you know and then you just you know

266
00:22:19,936 --> 00:22:26,216
you move on with life um it's just as a you know speaking as a resident it's sad to say that in a

267
00:22:26,216 --> 00:22:31,716
you know the place is probably not going in a great direction right there a sense of i told you

268
00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:41,536
so floating around the island at all i mean if i all i can say is that i have also been outspoken

269
00:22:41,536 --> 00:22:48,896
that you know if no one and you know leave leave me aside you know leave leave us our group aside

270
00:22:48,896 --> 00:22:55,496
if no one unblocks the backlog of infrastructural investment

271
00:22:55,496 --> 00:22:58,036
and the lack of long-term planning on SARC,

272
00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:00,216
then the place will not do well.

273
00:23:00,456 --> 00:23:02,256
And it's common sense.

274
00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:03,076
It's not surprising.

275
00:23:03,336 --> 00:23:05,296
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

276
00:23:05,456 --> 00:23:07,336
If you live there, you see it on a daily basis.

277
00:23:08,016 --> 00:23:10,236
So would I say I told you so?

278
00:23:10,316 --> 00:23:12,056
No, because, you know, like...

279
00:23:12,056 --> 00:23:12,936
It's not enabling.

280
00:23:13,416 --> 00:23:14,936
It doesn't happen.

281
00:23:14,936 --> 00:23:17,076
And in a way, I'm in the luxurious position also.

282
00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:32,436
So unlike my colleague and friend, the senior of Sark, you know, who has a distinct long-term interest in the place by way of his family's presence and interest and title, I'm in the luxurious position to say, you know, I did my best and I delivered.

283
00:23:33,976 --> 00:23:39,436
My biggest worry at the time, to be very frank, was that I didn't raise the money that would have made me look unsuccessful.

284
00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:41,616
And we had the money and it didn't go anywhere.

285
00:23:42,136 --> 00:23:44,576
So from my perspective, I've just moved on and I do something else in my life.

286
00:23:44,576 --> 00:23:50,296
I'm not going to tie my entire existence to Sark, as many other people do.

287
00:23:51,496 --> 00:23:53,436
But yeah, it's just sad to see.

288
00:23:54,136 --> 00:23:57,276
So I'm going to pry a little bit because I'm interested.

289
00:23:58,136 --> 00:24:05,476
When you generate an amount of capital to invest, I'm assuming, I think you've told me this,

290
00:24:05,616 --> 00:24:10,336
that someone comes in, gives you a valuation, and then you generate that capital.

291
00:24:10,616 --> 00:24:12,196
Is there any negotiating after that?

292
00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:17,436
You said like you put your bid in, you show, okay, this is what we think it's worth, here's the money.

293
00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:24,196
And if they say no, isn't there a – I mean, you mentioned that maybe they weren't even ready to receive any bids.

294
00:24:24,896 --> 00:24:26,496
You don't know that from their side.

295
00:24:26,776 --> 00:24:28,056
Well, I would say two things.

296
00:24:28,176 --> 00:24:30,096
I mean, first of all, yes, there was.

297
00:24:30,416 --> 00:24:32,736
Will I share details of conversations that were held?

298
00:24:33,056 --> 00:24:33,456
No.

299
00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:35,536
But you can look up what's in the media.

300
00:24:35,696 --> 00:24:38,296
And in the media, it's very clear that we offered 20 million.

301
00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:40,336
The buyer says we wanted 100.

302
00:24:40,336 --> 00:24:47,476
and in a way that ends the conversation there and there. Did you say you heard that in the media or

303
00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:53,176
did they tell you that? No, no, we were told that as well. Why didn't their lawyer say we won 100

304
00:24:53,176 --> 00:25:06,634
million or something to you directly Presumably that would have been a Well again I don want to go into specific conversations that were had between you know multiple people at the table but so i mean i can say that other people who looked

305
00:25:06,634 --> 00:25:12,554
at this real estate value did at 16 we offered 20 you know so we already offered goodwill and a

306
00:25:12,554 --> 00:25:21,394
premium and then you know to look at 100 there's just no conversation to be had beyond that that's

307
00:25:21,394 --> 00:25:27,134
the public side of things you know fair enough fair enough there's two being okay well that so

308
00:25:27,134 --> 00:25:32,314
but what about your own personal opinion on the whole thing now then i think the last i spoke to

309
00:25:32,314 --> 00:25:37,174
you was an email when i heard that the deal had fallen through and and i think i said to you look

310
00:25:37,174 --> 00:25:44,034
you know is that it and you were like never say never well so again we're very open and i think

311
00:25:44,034 --> 00:25:47,154
i'm actually going to write an article about this before the end of the year just to update people

312
00:25:47,154 --> 00:25:49,134
because I'm getting regular questions, you know,

313
00:25:49,194 --> 00:25:52,334
being cornered on the Sark ferry literally yesterday, you know,

314
00:25:52,394 --> 00:25:55,614
and people being curious.

315
00:25:55,794 --> 00:25:57,414
And in a way, I want to be very transparent.

316
00:25:57,894 --> 00:26:03,534
And we have a so-called special purpose vehicle, an SPV, a company,

317
00:26:03,874 --> 00:26:05,014
which is just a shell.

318
00:26:05,194 --> 00:26:06,394
It's the Sark property company.

319
00:26:06,794 --> 00:26:07,854
We have retained that.

320
00:26:08,114 --> 00:26:09,954
All four of the directors are still directors.

321
00:26:10,614 --> 00:26:11,834
It's in good stead.

322
00:26:11,974 --> 00:26:12,794
It's ready.

323
00:26:12,794 --> 00:26:19,634
I have investors who are you know they would be delighted to take my call when I rang up all of

324
00:26:19,634 --> 00:26:24,234
our investors last time and I said we don't need your money after all literally half of them

325
00:26:24,234 --> 00:26:30,394
immediately replied when you need it again just let me know and now that I know so much more about

326
00:26:30,394 --> 00:26:36,334
it I'd invest a larger amount you know raising money once you've done it is so much easier to

327
00:26:36,334 --> 00:26:42,374
do it a second time just as much I have moved on with my life and I'm doing other things now

328
00:26:42,374 --> 00:26:46,234
So, yes, things could always be looked at a second time.

329
00:26:46,354 --> 00:26:47,574
Am I pursuing anything right now?

330
00:26:47,794 --> 00:26:51,514
Absolutely no, because I did invest two and a half years of my life on it,

331
00:26:51,614 --> 00:26:53,614
and I'm not going to make my life's mission.

332
00:26:54,094 --> 00:26:58,034
And sometimes you just also need to recognize there's not always a happy ending.

333
00:26:58,874 --> 00:27:04,914
So what would it take for you to take back up the mantle of trying to kickstart this again?

334
00:27:05,634 --> 00:27:09,634
Would it take, would someone need to come in from the other side, the Barclays side?

335
00:27:10,214 --> 00:27:14,914
I'd say that's a question I could only really answer together with my three other directors.

336
00:27:15,314 --> 00:27:18,674
So I'm not going to answer that one right now.

337
00:27:18,794 --> 00:27:20,414
But the SPV is there.

338
00:27:20,494 --> 00:27:21,614
We have access to capital.

339
00:27:22,454 --> 00:27:23,694
Sark is staffed for capital.

340
00:27:23,834 --> 00:27:24,454
You see that.

341
00:27:26,034 --> 00:27:28,794
Wouldn't take much to, you know, get things going.

342
00:27:28,974 --> 00:27:31,314
Just as much am I doing anything on that front right now?

343
00:27:31,714 --> 00:27:32,614
Absolutely no way.

344
00:27:32,774 --> 00:27:35,874
I'm very busy with very positive things that are happening in my life.

345
00:27:35,874 --> 00:27:39,414
So it's not even remotely on my to-do list.

346
00:27:39,634 --> 00:27:56,094
Well, I mean, that's a definitive answer. It's incredible, really, when you think about it. But when you look at the parties involved, there's three major parties. There's kind of you guys, there's the Barclays, the property owners, and then there's the people of Sark.

347
00:27:56,094 --> 00:28:03,614
And you can see the incentive for you guys and for the people of Sark to move forward.

348
00:28:03,714 --> 00:28:13,334
But the incentive for the other side is less obvious, especially if they're prepared to quote an extremely high fee.

349
00:28:13,334 --> 00:28:22,474
And the obvious question which anyone will ask is to what extent are they potentially harm strung by financial and legal issues that exist on their side?

350
00:28:22,474 --> 00:28:27,394
you can only speculate about that but you know that's the first question any lawyer would ask

351
00:28:27,394 --> 00:28:32,374
in this situation is this about money or are there other blockages that will prevent anything from

352
00:28:32,374 --> 00:28:37,534
happening and this is another reason why i'm you know not spending much time thinking about this

353
00:28:37,534 --> 00:28:42,714
because that's you know completely beyond my my judgment my insight or you know my power to do

354
00:28:42,714 --> 00:28:48,454
anything about do you have you did you say earlier that you'd noticed that the the tourism industry

355
00:28:48,454 --> 00:28:53,194
quailed a little bit since then as well? Is that a factor of anything or is that just

356
00:28:53,194 --> 00:28:59,514
nothing to do with the fact that there was a lot of press around the time when the bid was happening?

357
00:28:59,514 --> 00:29:05,614
No, no. I'd say it's fair to say that SARC tourism has been in a secular decline probably for decades

358
00:29:05,614 --> 00:29:11,234
which started with the Channel Islands, Guernsey, Jersey, SARC, Alderney were places where probably in

359
00:29:11,234 --> 00:29:17,534
the 60s and 70s you traveled for a bit of sunshine but then cheap flights came into existence and

360
00:29:17,534 --> 00:29:22,334
people from the UK prefer to travel to Spain where you've got guaranteed sunshine and everything else

361
00:29:22,334 --> 00:29:27,974
is a lot cheaper and that trend has probably become more pronounced with the the so-called

362
00:29:27,974 --> 00:29:33,534
cost of living crisis in the UK where prices are up dramatically taking a family from the UK to

363
00:29:33,534 --> 00:29:38,874
Guernsey is really expensive nowadays I know yeah I looked in we I looked into it I've got there's

364
00:29:38,874 --> 00:29:45,794
five of us yep I looked into it and yeah it's not cheap to get that very short distance by plane

365
00:29:45,794 --> 00:29:52,654
And then you add to it the question whether the tourism facilities and what's on offer has improved in the last couple of decades.

366
00:29:52,914 --> 00:29:57,374
And I mean, given Sark's dilapidated status, I think the question answers itself.

367
00:29:57,534 --> 00:30:00,434
Sark lives of its natural beauty and its heritage and its history.

368
00:30:01,214 --> 00:30:05,914
And there are some great facilities on the island, but overall it's not become exactly more competitive.

369
00:30:06,674 --> 00:30:08,954
Then Sark also occasionally gets a bit lucky.

370
00:30:09,194 --> 00:30:13,234
So this past year there has been a significant influx of French tourists.

371
00:30:13,234 --> 00:30:16,854
So somehow the French have now discovered that you can, you know, with effort.

372
00:30:17,874 --> 00:30:19,294
Do they come straight from Prague?

373
00:30:19,294 --> 00:30:22,674
No, and this is one of the major issues and that's been talked about forever.

374
00:30:23,334 --> 00:30:27,174
And that would be the most obvious thing to do to boost tourism.

375
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:30,814
But because that was something that the Barclay family wanted back in the days,

376
00:30:31,214 --> 00:30:33,054
it's always been turned down on the back of that.

377
00:30:33,134 --> 00:30:35,654
That's a Barclay idea, which is why this thing has not been anywhere.

378
00:30:35,654 --> 00:30:38,814
Did they want it for tourism reasons?

379
00:30:39,274 --> 00:30:43,374
Yep, they owned hotels and they wanted tourists to come from Normandie and Brittany,

380
00:30:43,514 --> 00:30:45,734
where you've got 20 million people visiting every year.

381
00:30:45,774 --> 00:30:48,114
So you need like half a percent of that to come to Sark and you're good.

382
00:30:48,214 --> 00:30:50,834
I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's very close to France.

383
00:30:51,294 --> 00:30:52,934
How long would a ferry ride be?

384
00:30:53,254 --> 00:30:54,714
An hour or something like that.

385
00:30:54,774 --> 00:30:57,514
It's a complete no-brainer. It's been talked about for 15 years.

386
00:30:57,914 --> 00:31:00,654
Every year it's like, oh, it's really going to happen now.

387
00:31:00,654 --> 00:31:04,334
You know, like we've got a good new team and nothing ever happens.

388
00:31:04,714 --> 00:31:07,414
But you were planning on upgrading the port as well.

389
00:31:07,414 --> 00:31:09,954
Would that have had an impact there as well?

390
00:31:10,454 --> 00:31:13,334
That could have certainly facilitated all sorts of other things.

391
00:31:15,174 --> 00:31:19,354
And instead people are coming to a port that has issues,

392
00:31:20,394 --> 00:31:24,534
starting with comfort and convenience and ending with health and safety.

393
00:31:24,634 --> 00:31:28,294
So French tourists are going to the UK and then flying to Guernsey?

394
00:31:28,534 --> 00:31:31,174
No, they come to Guernsey and Jersey first and then do a…

395
00:31:31,174 --> 00:31:32,734
Can you get directly from France to Guernsey?

396
00:31:32,734 --> 00:31:33,254
Yeah, you can.

397
00:31:33,854 --> 00:31:35,974
During summer of the year when the weather is nice.

398
00:31:35,974 --> 00:31:40,674
And what was the reason that that's just that is that just something on Instagram, probably that just kicked off?

399
00:31:41,214 --> 00:32:02,914
Something just kicked off. So, I mean, we had a couple of years when there were lots of cruise ships stopping over in Guernsey, and they then sent groups over to SAC, the famous T&P tourists. Now it's the French people coming. But overall, the numbers look okay, but the spend per visitor is not doing well, from what I hear anecdotally from a variety of business owners.

400
00:32:02,914 --> 00:32:07,534
presumably because they can't stay for too long either they can't stay for too long there is a

401
00:32:07,534 --> 00:32:12,014
cost of living crisis restaurant owners tell me you know people come in and order a meal but no

402
00:32:12,014 --> 00:32:17,894
drinks or just want tap water that sort of stuff it's true it's the same where i live in out in the

403
00:32:17,894 --> 00:32:25,014
rural england the part you know people don't go out as much as they used to especially you know

404
00:32:25,014 --> 00:32:30,834
when you consider that even a simple meal in the uk now is relatively expensive if you take your

405
00:32:30,834 --> 00:32:40,194
whole family out it's not like it was yeah i think i hate to sound negative but it there's a lot of

406
00:32:40,194 --> 00:32:44,894
it's a bit of a shit show at the moment isn't it everywhere it is and you could change things so

407
00:32:44,894 --> 00:32:49,394
easily and so quickly so for example in september i brought a group of 48 friends colleagues and

408
00:32:49,394 --> 00:32:56,274
readers to sarg for a weekend where we you know indulged quite lavishly in you know culinary

409
00:32:56,274 --> 00:33:02,994
delights and and other activities and business owners told me that one group coming in september

410
00:33:02,994 --> 00:33:07,314
which is off season made a significant difference for them it's like literally you know one person

411
00:33:07,314 --> 00:33:12,354
organizing one group already makes a difference in these businesses for it would be i don't know

412
00:33:12,354 --> 00:33:17,454
i'd say it'd be a perfect place to do retreats wouldn't it you know like business retreats

413
00:33:17,454 --> 00:33:19,954
whatever it would just be it's got

414
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:25,432
I mean, obviously, some people from our organization did such a thing.

415
00:33:25,932 --> 00:33:26,932
And you had a great time.

416
00:33:27,092 --> 00:33:27,272
Yeah.

417
00:33:27,372 --> 00:33:27,912
So I hear.

418
00:33:28,272 --> 00:33:28,792
Yeah, absolutely.

419
00:33:28,952 --> 00:33:30,032
It could all be done.

420
00:33:30,412 --> 00:33:36,852
And in a way, it's almost heartbreaking and a bit of a shocker, you know, why is so little happening?

421
00:33:36,852 --> 00:33:44,632
And as you said, you know, one of the headlines you read on Google News is about the ferry timetable being thinned out so much that even the residents complain.

422
00:33:45,372 --> 00:33:47,312
You know, then, you know, never mind tourists.

423
00:33:47,312 --> 00:34:02,972
Well, maybe to end on a, let's end this section on a positive note, maybe it'll come to a head. I mean, could you predict that it would come to a head? I mean, there must be even a point where everyone's losing out.

424
00:34:02,972 --> 00:34:10,172
this is generally how political change happens things have to get really bad before eventually

425
00:34:10,172 --> 00:34:19,432
they turn around is sark in a spot yet where it's really bad i i don't think it is um but that's just

426
00:34:19,432 --> 00:34:26,292
my subjective perception and other people may well disagree in any case i sort of i keep an open mind

427
00:34:26,292 --> 00:34:33,212
as to the entire thing. As I always keep saying, I'm just renting. I'm enjoying my time there. I've

428
00:34:33,212 --> 00:34:38,332
had some great years on Sark. My career has certainly advanced thanks to the exposure that

429
00:34:38,332 --> 00:34:45,872
I had through the whole attempt to invest in Sark. So I'm, you know, positively satisfied with my Sark

430
00:34:45,872 --> 00:34:50,632
experience and not making my future dependent on it. But I'm also in a, you know, very comfortable

431
00:34:50,632 --> 00:34:53,172
position. And I can easily say that for other people, it's quite different.

432
00:34:53,172 --> 00:35:00,632
right well let's talk about your other things that you're doing then let's turn this around

433
00:35:00,632 --> 00:35:06,472
it's all not it's not all dark doom and gloom um you're um you'll speak we're at the free cities

434
00:35:06,472 --> 00:35:13,292
conference obviously in prague welcome by the way and um and you're you're going to be talking

435
00:35:13,292 --> 00:35:19,552
and loosely speaking and i like this term vote with your money we've got vote with your feet

436
00:35:19,552 --> 00:35:21,012
We've got vote with your boat.

437
00:35:21,652 --> 00:35:27,032
Basically, we've got vote with everything except a little tick on a thing, which I think I could definitely get behind.

438
00:35:27,912 --> 00:35:30,632
But that's the title of what you're going to be talking about.

439
00:35:30,972 --> 00:35:36,652
And the subtitle is Investment Opportunities in the Era of Capital Flight.

440
00:35:38,332 --> 00:35:42,432
That's a very 21st century thing, isn't it?

441
00:35:42,532 --> 00:35:46,452
I mean, especially, I don't know how much you know about capital flight from the UK.

442
00:35:46,452 --> 00:35:55,952
But if what I read in the very normal press is anything, you know, is true, it appears there's a lot of capital flight from the UK.

443
00:35:55,952 --> 00:36:03,852
And I think probably a lot of it's spurred by potential government changes in taxation.

444
00:36:04,672 --> 00:36:06,792
I mean, you obviously know a lot about this.

445
00:36:07,432 --> 00:36:08,812
Why is there so much?

446
00:36:08,892 --> 00:36:10,632
Why are there so many millionaires leaving the UK?

447
00:36:10,772 --> 00:36:14,372
And why is there so much money leaving our shores?

448
00:36:15,372 --> 00:36:19,032
So I think there's a whole number of subjects that we can speak about here.

449
00:36:19,052 --> 00:36:22,092
But let's start with the most obvious one, which is what's in the media every day.

450
00:36:22,212 --> 00:36:29,052
People leaving the UK and people with money or professional skills or the ability to build companies they're leaving.

451
00:36:30,212 --> 00:36:40,372
I think what's driving it is not so much the absolute percentage tax rate or specific issues that they're upset about.

452
00:36:40,372 --> 00:36:48,552
I think what I see among my contemporaries is it's the fact that there's just no improvement in sight at all.

453
00:36:49,432 --> 00:36:58,392
When politics are bad and frustrating, you think, OK, in two years there's going to be another election and, you know, we just need to sit this one out and then it'll be fine again.

454
00:36:58,972 --> 00:37:02,192
And this time people are saying, no, there's just no way out.

455
00:37:02,192 --> 00:37:09,692
I mean, first of all, the Labour government will be in power for, I think, another three years now, unless anything dramatic happens.

456
00:37:10,372 --> 00:37:14,912
And even then, I mean, we've had how many years of the Tories?

457
00:37:14,912 --> 00:37:23,932
And they've basically pursued policies that made Tory, like conventional or traditional Tory voters, absolutely despise them like never before.

458
00:37:24,772 --> 00:37:34,912
And in terms of voting with your feet or voting with your money or your boat, there's this meme going around, which is basically that you can't vote your way out of this situation.

459
00:37:34,912 --> 00:37:38,192
because we are in some way, as cynics would say,

460
00:37:38,292 --> 00:37:41,492
in a uniparty system where it doesn't matter who you vote for,

461
00:37:41,972 --> 00:37:44,352
different politicians, same crap, basically.

462
00:37:45,712 --> 00:37:47,332
No matter who you vote for,

463
00:37:47,412 --> 00:37:49,912
they can't make the permanent bureaucracy,

464
00:37:50,612 --> 00:37:52,172
aka deep state, go away.

465
00:37:52,292 --> 00:37:55,512
They can't make the accumulated debt

466
00:37:55,512 --> 00:37:57,372
and the entitlements go away.

467
00:37:57,792 --> 00:37:59,752
You might be able to inflate your way out of it,

468
00:37:59,752 --> 00:38:01,872
but that's not exactly what you want either.

469
00:38:02,932 --> 00:38:04,712
And it's a hopeless situation.

470
00:38:04,912 --> 00:38:10,732
And I see, interestingly enough, a lot of people in the UK, also very much so in Germany,

471
00:38:11,472 --> 00:38:15,892
people who would not previously have done more than to just moan about it.

472
00:38:16,072 --> 00:38:21,012
I see them packing up, selling up and voting with their feet and taking their money with them.

473
00:38:21,092 --> 00:38:22,412
And that's a new development.

474
00:38:22,912 --> 00:38:25,212
And it's certainly, I think, building up.

475
00:38:25,492 --> 00:38:28,832
And it's going to be a continuous feature in the landscape.

476
00:38:29,332 --> 00:38:30,992
And that leads you to the next question.

477
00:38:31,052 --> 00:38:33,112
At what point are government going to say no more?

478
00:38:33,232 --> 00:38:34,452
You know, we're bleeding out here.

479
00:38:34,452 --> 00:38:36,812
We need capital controls again.

480
00:38:37,012 --> 00:38:39,272
And that's something I've been speaking about for years now.

481
00:38:39,392 --> 00:38:41,972
And it seems like we're getting closer to that point.

482
00:38:43,572 --> 00:38:48,052
So capital controls would be exit taxes and wealth taxes.

483
00:38:48,192 --> 00:38:49,112
Are they capital controls?

484
00:38:49,452 --> 00:38:52,792
So I think it's worth taking a step back and looking back in history.

485
00:38:52,792 --> 00:38:59,352
Capital controls used to be something fairly common until the 1980s, probably.

486
00:38:59,352 --> 00:39:11,612
It was not uncommon for countries, including Western countries, to basically tell its citizens you can only take a certain amount of money outside of the country every year and you need to invest it at home, etc., etc.

487
00:39:12,772 --> 00:39:20,232
We have forgotten how recent capital controls were a fairly common feature of the financial landscape.

488
00:39:20,592 --> 00:39:28,052
And I started talking about this subject in 2022 when I was at a conference for family offices in Vienna.

489
00:39:28,052 --> 00:39:32,052
and I pointed out in a presentation to them

490
00:39:32,052 --> 00:39:36,632
that the various supranational institutions

491
00:39:36,632 --> 00:39:38,772
had put new regulation in place

492
00:39:38,772 --> 00:39:41,592
to make capital controls easier in the future

493
00:39:41,592 --> 00:39:45,252
based around ideas such as capital controls

494
00:39:45,252 --> 00:39:50,912
are possible in circumstances related to national security

495
00:39:50,912 --> 00:39:54,392
which of course is always, you know, that's anything.

496
00:39:54,392 --> 00:39:59,372
and I found it very interesting that they introduced specific wording

497
00:39:59,372 --> 00:40:03,012
to allow capital controls as a preventative measure.

498
00:40:03,952 --> 00:40:06,392
So in between national security and a preventative measure,

499
00:40:06,492 --> 00:40:08,192
you can just do whatever you like.

500
00:40:08,332 --> 00:40:11,312
And once you give politicians power, they're going to use it to their advantage.

501
00:40:12,152 --> 00:40:14,472
And back in the days, if you spoke about capital controls,

502
00:40:14,552 --> 00:40:18,692
you were still somewhat like a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

503
00:40:18,692 --> 00:40:28,192
now what we're seeing I think is a the rise of several different ways how to directly or

504
00:40:28,192 --> 00:40:34,792
indirectly introduce capital controls one is for example exit taxes and they're always done in a

505
00:40:34,792 --> 00:40:40,332
very pernicious way where yes of course you're allowed to leave you know but you know it's just

506
00:40:40,332 --> 00:40:47,272
you just can't keep your company you have to sell your company and Germany is the know-how leader in

507
00:40:47,272 --> 00:40:54,332
this aspect they invented exit taxes in the 1920s and then the 1930s used one particular

508
00:40:54,332 --> 00:41:00,272
religious or ethnic group to really perfect the whole system of exit taxes and they've been a

509
00:41:00,272 --> 00:41:07,992
world leader in it ever since other countries are introducing it there are now issues or you know

510
00:41:07,992 --> 00:41:15,532
regulations like for example i think finland has just banned large numbers of foreigners from buying

511
00:41:15,532 --> 00:41:19,292
real estate in the country, which in a way is a sort of reverse capital control.

512
00:41:19,292 --> 00:41:20,072
You can't come in.

513
00:41:20,812 --> 00:41:22,212
And we're seeing more and more of that.

514
00:41:22,312 --> 00:41:29,972
And if the flow of capital to safe havens or perceived safe havens increases further,

515
00:41:29,972 --> 00:41:46,190
then you could see measures such as you can only take a certain amount outside of the country every year which is for example something South Africans have been used to ever like forever It going to come back It interesting You said that the meme now is

516
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:55,570
you know, this is happening, which is new. I agree. And it's not just people that are into

517
00:41:55,570 --> 00:42:01,770
finance and people are into this kind of stuff. It's normal people talking about it now. So

518
00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:08,650
So it's probably nearer to a bit of a flash, you know, kind of like a flashpoint than we think.

519
00:42:09,230 --> 00:42:14,870
Because already people are feeling the pain in daily life.

520
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:18,610
And according to this, it's going to get worse.

521
00:42:19,170 --> 00:42:23,810
Because capital control, do you include a wealth tax as a form of capital control?

522
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:24,530
Yeah, absolutely.

523
00:42:24,530 --> 00:42:24,850
Right.

524
00:42:24,850 --> 00:42:32,910
and I know from experience that when certain people start talking about wealth taxes it means

525
00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:40,530
it's coming it's just you know like it gets leaked out slowly but surely and it's one of the most

526
00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:46,330
egregious taxes I think are wealth taxes it's one of the most miserly taxes it's literally the one

527
00:42:46,330 --> 00:42:52,790
that they say right we've taxed you all the way up to the top and now we want the rest and it's

528
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:59,430
the worst the same with the exit tax it's like rather than being competitive to try and keep you

529
00:42:59,430 --> 00:43:03,670
here i'm just going to stop you leaving you know it's like when they put a wall up to stop you

530
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:08,850
going you know which side of the wall you're supposed to be on you know it's like the same

531
00:43:08,850 --> 00:43:15,910
thing happened in east germany we know that you know um but but i think i think when normal people

532
00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:22,090
in the pub start talking about, you know, these kind of things. And then it's quite serious.

533
00:43:22,830 --> 00:43:29,830
And like you say, I have a slightly different opinion. I think most, I see the uni party idea

534
00:43:29,830 --> 00:43:37,270
is real. And, but I see a lot of people on the ground talking about potentially a third party

535
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:42,650
idea. And from my perspective, I don't see any difference there. I think it doesn't matter what

536
00:43:42,650 --> 00:43:47,090
they say, they're still going to, even if they get into power, which it could, I would

537
00:43:47,090 --> 00:43:51,010
say at the moment currently, probably more likely than anything, they're still going

538
00:43:51,010 --> 00:43:57,950
to hit the same blob, the same mass of bureaucracy, the same hole in the same deficit, the same

539
00:43:57,950 --> 00:43:58,370
everything.

540
00:43:59,050 --> 00:44:02,390
And there's not a lot you can do when you're a government because you don't make money.

541
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:09,450
You either borrow it off you or me or institutions, or you take it from you or me or institutions.

542
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:12,490
and they haven't got any other options.

543
00:44:13,830 --> 00:44:17,130
So what is the answer apart from, you know,

544
00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:23,250
when I heard in the mainstream news that so many million millionaires,

545
00:44:23,470 --> 00:44:26,730
so many, was it 16,000 millionaires had left or whatever,

546
00:44:28,350 --> 00:44:32,530
I think they were probably the smart money thinking about it.

547
00:44:32,890 --> 00:44:35,690
There's probably smarter money that was even before them.

548
00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:42,410
but but i would imagine that that means that in the not too distant future um it's too late

549
00:44:42,410 --> 00:44:49,690
you're either paying when you leave or or you're not and that's pretty pretty bad for for your

550
00:44:49,690 --> 00:44:55,290
average i think middle class people you know i was thinking about it the other day i i'm sorry

551
00:44:55,290 --> 00:45:01,410
to rant on a bit but it's all it's all welling up in me now but i was thinking about our house that

552
00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:11,670
we own that's basically taken best part of 30 or 35 years to own this lovely big pile of stone

553
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:19,490
nobody else owns it apparently we do and now I'm thinking okay it's a it's potentially becoming a

554
00:45:19,490 --> 00:45:28,630
liability um so maybe then we'll save it we'll sell it and move to a better place and when I

555
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:34,490
went through every stage of this process i was basically being hammered selling it taxed i mean

556
00:45:34,490 --> 00:45:41,970
keeping it taxed selling it taxed taking the money abroad to look for a better life taxed you know and

557
00:45:41,970 --> 00:45:50,210
it's like they're so miserly so it's so wrong and broken and and you know so what do you do i mean

558
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:55,570
obviously you you would advise me to probably get the hell out would you i'm telling everyone

559
00:45:55,570 --> 00:46:00,730
And however hard and expensive it may be to leave,

560
00:46:01,170 --> 00:46:04,270
it's not going to get any cheaper and it's not going to get any easier.

561
00:46:05,470 --> 00:46:09,250
And to give you an example, I mean, or two examples,

562
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:15,730
I moved to the Channel Islands in 2017 because I saw bad things coming our way.

563
00:46:16,290 --> 00:46:20,770
And I was too early, but I moved to Sark at a time when 20% of the real estate was empty.

564
00:46:20,890 --> 00:46:23,870
So I could literally freely pick the house that I wanted to leave in.

565
00:46:23,870 --> 00:46:31,750
try moving to the Channel Islands now, you know, find anything and it'll be twice as expensive

566
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:36,130
and you may not even get anything closely resembling of what you want.

567
00:46:36,730 --> 00:46:42,490
And then again, capital controls and also just tightly sort of like connected to the subject of leaving.

568
00:46:43,450 --> 00:46:49,270
So three years ago, you could have gone to the Channel Islands and opened a bank account with a leading private bank

569
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:52,090
with an opening deposit of 250,000.

570
00:46:52,090 --> 00:46:55,010
that's been up to 2 million now.

571
00:46:55,250 --> 00:46:56,430
And it's a hard limit

572
00:46:56,430 --> 00:46:59,530
because the compliance regulations

573
00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:03,570
that banks are now under for non-resident clients

574
00:47:03,570 --> 00:47:06,730
have become so onerous that banks say,

575
00:47:06,730 --> 00:47:07,930
sorry, if you don't bring 2 million,

576
00:47:08,170 --> 00:47:10,010
we just literally can't deal with you, sorry.

577
00:47:10,570 --> 00:47:13,270
So it's just getting harder and harder to get in.

578
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:17,070
And I think that will only become more of a problem

579
00:47:17,070 --> 00:47:18,910
as more people move abroad.

580
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:21,390
That said, there are always options.

581
00:47:21,390 --> 00:47:24,610
and much as, for example, the Channel Islands have a very limited housing stock

582
00:47:24,610 --> 00:47:27,730
and are sort of like full, you have places like Dubai

583
00:47:27,730 --> 00:47:30,310
where you can just, you know, you just extend in the desert and you build.

584
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:32,230
So yes, there's always an option somewhere.

585
00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:37,270
But generally speaking, it won't get easier to extricate yourself

586
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:41,270
from your own country and it will not get easier to get in elsewhere.

587
00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:44,790
That's before we've spoken about second passport programs

588
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:47,270
and things like that, all of which become more and more regulated,

589
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:47,890
more expensive.

590
00:47:47,890 --> 00:47:54,910
so I'm a broken record I've been saying this for 25 years to people just leave

591
00:47:54,910 --> 00:48:02,870
but presumably there is a geo arbitrage there is competition worldwide for people

592
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:08,590
so it's you're talking about Europe the UK really Europe in the UK right

593
00:48:08,590 --> 00:48:12,590
yes absolutely I'm talking about Europe and the UK because I'm of a certain age where

594
00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:21,070
You know, most of my contemporaries want to stay somewhere close to Europe or in Europe because of family and parents and things like that.

595
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:23,010
Younger people may be more flexible.

596
00:48:23,170 --> 00:48:30,490
And the great news is that we live in the golden age of the digital nomad visa, the golden visa, and countries competing for the productive.

597
00:48:31,450 --> 00:48:34,890
And you also have more options than ever before.

598
00:48:34,990 --> 00:48:38,310
You need the money to pay for it, but you certainly have more options than ever before.

599
00:48:38,310 --> 00:48:41,430
And there's now this wonderful thing called the Internet where you can look up all this information.

600
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:47,670
in the 1990s when I wanted to read up about alternative you know tax residencies and

601
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:52,530
passports and all that sort of stuff you had to buy underground books you know like books from

602
00:48:52,530 --> 00:48:57,050
underground publishers and they were really expensive and you know it was much more tedious

603
00:48:57,050 --> 00:49:02,490
so in a way it's a great time to be alive and you just have to pick what's best for you and in a way

604
00:49:02,490 --> 00:49:09,210
the free cities conference where we're at these days is where I think the philosophy or the motto

605
00:49:09,210 --> 00:49:16,170
is very much don't try to change the system where you are because by god have we tried and it's not

606
00:49:16,170 --> 00:49:21,890
it's not moving just build something new elsewhere and that in a way includes build yourself a new

607
00:49:21,890 --> 00:49:29,230
life elsewhere where you are welcomed and liked and treated well and uh ironic well not ironically

608
00:49:29,230 --> 00:49:34,970
as a matter of fact there are more projects in the free city space than ever before and

609
00:49:34,970 --> 00:49:38,230
and there is a real sense of momentum right now.

610
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:42,750
And I'm probably one of the closest people to many of the projects.

611
00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:47,130
And I can definitely attest to the fact that I can feel it already,

612
00:49:47,710 --> 00:49:49,650
especially even in the last few months.

613
00:49:50,510 --> 00:50:05,028
And that why I mentioned the meme that you can vote with your feet has blossomed very quickly when you think about it I mean I think in this day and age with the internet I think everything does

614
00:50:05,688 --> 00:50:10,888
I don't think, I think a good idea when it sort of gets released out into the wild these

615
00:50:10,888 --> 00:50:15,728
days will basically flourish on account of the internet.

616
00:50:15,728 --> 00:50:21,648
And that is one of the ones that I can't believe how many people I know, real, what I would

617
00:50:21,648 --> 00:50:32,548
normal people talking about options like this um which is unfathomable especially in the UK because

618
00:50:32,548 --> 00:50:40,768
I don't know I love the UK I love where I live I love British culture I feel a fully immersed

619
00:50:40,768 --> 00:50:49,828
Brit I love it um but I'm still I'm I'm like I I think I'm like you except I actually do own a

620
00:50:49,828 --> 00:50:57,568
property in the UK. But I don't feel sentimental about it anymore. It's weird. It's been a couple

621
00:50:57,568 --> 00:51:04,668
of years that so many cogs have been turning in my mind that I suddenly realize I'm no longer

622
00:51:04,668 --> 00:51:11,448
sentimental about wanting to spend my old age in the UK. And it's really sad in one sense,

623
00:51:11,888 --> 00:51:17,948
but it's also exciting because I'm in this world, this world we're in now, which is super exciting.

624
00:51:17,948 --> 00:51:35,568
There's a lot of people doing a lot of things, but I'm one of those people that does have friends and family in Europe and I do want to stay, but I'm quite prepared to go now, you know, and really that's a major hurdle.

625
00:51:36,008 --> 00:51:37,428
That would have been a major hurdle for me.

626
00:51:37,428 --> 00:51:46,048
Yes, the number of people who are talking about this, considering it and potentially close to doing it has probably gone up by a hundredfold.

627
00:51:47,288 --> 00:51:54,908
It's not a specific figure, but it's gone up by so many multiples that I can't even begin to imagine how many people that's now.

628
00:51:55,328 --> 00:51:56,528
Everyone's speaking about it.

629
00:51:58,108 --> 00:52:00,448
Where do you advise then?

630
00:52:01,048 --> 00:52:04,728
Without too specific, do you just advise get out?

631
00:52:04,728 --> 00:52:12,768
Or where do you say, where are the best places to sort of migrate your capital to?

632
00:52:12,888 --> 00:52:15,428
Well, on the one hand, it depends on your individual circumstances.

633
00:52:15,608 --> 00:52:22,248
But the advice I always give is, you know, choose that one place that really appeals to you, even if it's not perfect.

634
00:52:22,708 --> 00:52:28,928
Just get out and learn and experience how it is to live in a different place.

635
00:52:29,148 --> 00:52:34,128
And then you improve and you optimize by moving on from there, if you have to.

636
00:52:34,728 --> 00:52:35,908
Just make that first step.

637
00:52:36,808 --> 00:52:45,088
I'm speaking to a lot of people who are in this forever loop of talking about what's the perfect place where I'm going.

638
00:52:45,168 --> 00:52:46,448
And there is no perfect place.

639
00:52:46,868 --> 00:52:50,988
And if you think about that for too long, then you will never move.

640
00:52:50,988 --> 00:52:54,668
And maybe some people just like speaking about it.

641
00:52:54,868 --> 00:53:00,468
But if you're serious about it, just move somewhere, rent something, try it out, and then move on if you don't like it.

642
00:53:00,468 --> 00:53:05,088
I think the reason a lot of people keep speaking about it is because they're deeply optimistic that things are going to change.

643
00:53:05,988 --> 00:53:06,988
That's my feeling.

644
00:53:07,408 --> 00:53:12,408
I really feel like I know, for example, there's been a few phases of people I know leaving the UK.

645
00:53:12,848 --> 00:53:16,468
The phase we're at now is we'll see what happens in three years.

646
00:53:16,848 --> 00:53:22,908
We'll see if reform or whoever it is do actually shake stuff up, which I don't think they will,

647
00:53:23,008 --> 00:53:25,248
because I thought Trump was going to shake things up.

648
00:53:25,248 --> 00:53:32,708
And, you know, he's kind of everything's bigger and more expensive and more money, more borrowing, everything, you know.

649
00:53:33,088 --> 00:53:34,228
So I don't imagine.

650
00:53:34,588 --> 00:53:41,088
Have you got any anecdotal evidence of the kind of phases people go through when they actually decide to go?

651
00:53:41,228 --> 00:53:44,848
You're saying like, get out and then sort of look back in hindsight.

652
00:53:45,288 --> 00:53:46,508
That's kind of what you're saying, isn't it?

653
00:53:46,528 --> 00:53:51,268
It's like, just try it, because if you don't try it, you'll never know what you're missing out on or whatever.

654
00:53:51,268 --> 00:53:56,808
do people tend to sort of like dip their toes and then and then realize it's the right thing or

655
00:53:56,808 --> 00:54:00,548
do you get a lot of people coming back do you get a lot of people just jumping feet first or

656
00:54:00,548 --> 00:54:06,968
so my experience my best experience and most useful insights about this i think are from

657
00:54:06,968 --> 00:54:13,428
living in sark and having helped a lot of people move to sark in one capacity or another and two

658
00:54:13,428 --> 00:54:20,648
things happen very often one is that they are utterly shocked how easy it was and how nice life

659
00:54:20,648 --> 00:54:23,148
was subsequently once they were on the other side of the wall.

660
00:54:25,348 --> 00:54:28,328
And the other thing is that in any jurisdiction,

661
00:54:28,528 --> 00:54:31,108
and even more so in a tiny island jurisdiction,

662
00:54:31,428 --> 00:54:35,328
you have, inevitably you have churn.

663
00:54:35,728 --> 00:54:37,768
People move somewhere and they realize

664
00:54:37,768 --> 00:54:40,048
it's not quite what I need or what I want.

665
00:54:40,528 --> 00:54:42,848
But then they're on the other side of the wall already,

666
00:54:42,848 --> 00:54:45,548
and then they don't move back to where they came from,

667
00:54:45,668 --> 00:54:47,288
but instead they move to somewhere else

668
00:54:47,288 --> 00:54:48,168
that might suit them better.

669
00:54:48,168 --> 00:54:56,448
and that's a recurring theme i see and in a way that i hope hope inspires people to you know

670
00:54:56,448 --> 00:55:02,708
take that jump and then just you know work your way forward from there what about actual investment

671
00:55:02,708 --> 00:55:10,508
wise then what what are the what are the options that mostly people sort of what routes to most

672
00:55:10,508 --> 00:55:17,328
people go down in those terms well i think everyone always constantly speaks about real

673
00:55:17,328 --> 00:55:22,068
estate, which I find utterly boring, I have to admit, because the real estate you live in is not

674
00:55:22,068 --> 00:55:27,888
an investment. I would say the most exciting investment to speak about is your business.

675
00:55:28,308 --> 00:55:35,688
Wealth is mostly created from setting up and growing businesses. And I would say in this day

676
00:55:35,688 --> 00:55:42,028
and age of the internet and global options, to call it, for lack of a better word,

677
00:55:42,028 --> 00:55:49,148
it's extraordinarily exciting to look at jurisdictions and potential places to live

678
00:55:49,148 --> 00:55:52,928
from the perspective of would I want to run a business from there would it be advantageous for

679
00:55:52,928 --> 00:55:59,008
my career as an entrepreneur as a business builder to be based there and I think that's really the

680
00:55:59,008 --> 00:56:08,628
number one aspect to look at the weather transport links the school system food culture time zones

681
00:56:08,628 --> 00:56:13,488
All of that is very, very important and everything always comes as a package and nothing is ever perfect.

682
00:56:13,668 --> 00:56:15,968
But ask yourself, where do you want to build a business?

683
00:56:16,068 --> 00:56:17,908
Because that's where you're probably going to make the most money.

684
00:56:18,468 --> 00:56:27,908
What do you think of the situation in America as an option for relocating capital, yourself, your family?

685
00:56:28,488 --> 00:56:32,248
I think America is one of the most underappreciated options.

686
00:56:32,828 --> 00:56:37,268
So I have myself been, you know, occasionally taking a curious look at that.

687
00:56:37,268 --> 00:56:41,228
and the reason for that is twofold first of all it's the world's biggest market

688
00:56:41,228 --> 00:56:47,268
so if you want to build a business and you want to have a domestic audience that you can sell to

689
00:56:47,268 --> 00:56:51,968
there's just nothing else unless you want to move to china you know and i don't speak chinese so

690
00:56:51,968 --> 00:56:59,448
that's not my option and the other one is that america offers many options because it's 50 or

691
00:56:59,448 --> 00:57:03,728
however many states and then these sort of jurisdictions that are part of it like puerto

692
00:57:03,728 --> 00:57:13,528
Rico and Guam and whatnot else. And in between the different state systems for tax and different

693
00:57:13,528 --> 00:57:21,348
loopholes, I think tax is not too bad. And it is by far outweighed by the economy and the market

694
00:57:21,348 --> 00:57:26,888
being so big that, as I always say, you know, I don't mind paying high taxes if my income is 10

695
00:57:26,888 --> 00:57:31,308
times higher than elsewhere. I'm still coming out ahead. It's just a lifestyle decision primarily.

696
00:57:31,308 --> 00:57:33,448
Some people love America, some people hate it.

697
00:57:33,748 --> 00:57:38,268
And it's not easy to get in, but there are so many interesting routes,

698
00:57:38,448 --> 00:57:40,188
some of which are underappreciated.

699
00:57:40,288 --> 00:57:41,168
It's all rapidly changing.

700
00:57:41,268 --> 00:57:45,348
I don't want to speak about individual visas because I'm not up to date on a day-to-day basis.

701
00:57:45,548 --> 00:57:49,388
But until fairly recently, the highly talented visa was a great route to get in.

702
00:57:49,448 --> 00:57:52,128
And I know 25-year-old kids who got in as highly talented,

703
00:57:52,288 --> 00:57:54,488
even though they were like medium talented maybe.

704
00:57:58,208 --> 00:57:59,228
Same with schools.

705
00:57:59,228 --> 00:58:04,508
Yeah, so yeah, the United States is a potentially great option and it just goes to show there are

706
00:58:05,108 --> 00:58:09,608
Different things work for different people. I'll tell you the most unusual option that you will never have heard about

707
00:58:10,148 --> 00:58:14,328
Go on. Well, you want to bet that I haven't heard about absolute shocker for you

708
00:58:15,968 --> 00:58:28,566
Right I like a good guessing game Give me a clue So no you won be able to guess Okay It the UK for me in my specific circumstances because what everyone has completely missed

709
00:58:28,566 --> 00:58:33,666
noticing, because it doesn't apply to most people, when the Labour government canned

710
00:58:33,666 --> 00:58:38,686
the non-DOM status, which was the ability for non-Brits to basically be based in the

711
00:58:38,686 --> 00:58:43,146
UK and only pay taxes on their local income and keep everything else outside of the country

712
00:58:43,146 --> 00:58:43,586
tax-free.

713
00:58:43,586 --> 00:58:57,206
When they canned that, they introduced a new set of rules that as a non-Brit, you can move to the UK and effectively live there as a non-dom for four years, provided you haven't lived there in the last 10 years.

714
00:58:58,126 --> 00:59:09,046
So because I've been away for 10 years, I could now move to the UK and spend four years there and only pay taxes on my local income and keep everything else outside of the country tax-free.

715
00:59:09,046 --> 00:59:12,606
Wow. So you mean as in SARC is not the UK?

716
00:59:13,106 --> 00:59:13,506
Correct.

717
00:59:13,586 --> 00:59:15,486
Yeah. So I could move to London.

718
00:59:16,446 --> 00:59:17,506
And pay no tax.

719
00:59:17,886 --> 00:59:21,346
Well, I would pay a bit on what I need, you know, to live and stuff.

720
00:59:21,506 --> 00:59:24,186
But I would probably, my global tax rate would be in the single digits.

721
00:59:26,226 --> 00:59:26,826
You're right.

722
00:59:26,926 --> 00:59:31,266
Limited to four years. Not ideal if you have family, you want to relocate everyone and, you know.

723
00:59:31,906 --> 00:59:34,386
Four years is four years in this day and age.

724
00:59:34,566 --> 00:59:42,366
That's one of the symptoms of this day and age, I think, is people don't think in 25 year, you know, batches.

725
00:59:42,366 --> 00:59:46,846
yeah yeah and i'm saying that as an you know to illustrate there are so many surprising options

726
00:59:46,846 --> 00:59:50,926
that you only find if you do a lot of research about this the world's your oyster

727
00:59:50,926 --> 01:00:00,606
yeah well i agree that the world's your oyster but i also have to you know acknowledge that

728
01:00:00,606 --> 01:00:07,806
my roots my family's roots are well and truly in the ground where we are and um i think

729
01:00:07,806 --> 01:00:14,886
I think I it's almost like I fall into the category of someone who would just have to take

730
01:00:14,886 --> 01:00:21,686
take the kick up the ass from the government there's not much I can do if they decide to start

731
01:00:21,686 --> 01:00:26,446
wealth taxing my property I'm in you know I mean I don't know how it works necessarily if it's

732
01:00:26,446 --> 01:00:34,226
anything like the US system then I'm in trouble because I've we've we've amassed like for like I

733
01:00:34,226 --> 01:00:40,706
say for 35 years we've been climbing the ladder of property so can i just add one thought here

734
01:00:40,706 --> 01:00:45,846
maybe also to just stress that it's not all about taxes really it's about you know you get into

735
01:00:45,846 --> 01:00:50,506
trouble if you tweet certain things if you've got certain opinions they might want to inject you

736
01:00:50,506 --> 01:00:55,006
certain substances they might want to lock you into your house for a year or two you add up all

737
01:00:55,006 --> 01:01:02,686
of these different factors it's not just about you know saving taxes it's just not a great place

738
01:01:02,686 --> 01:01:04,786
to live anymore in many ways, sadly.

739
01:01:05,306 --> 01:01:06,706
I agree with you.

740
01:01:06,886 --> 01:01:08,686
I do 100% agree.

741
01:01:08,846 --> 01:01:09,566
It's just that,

742
01:01:10,266 --> 01:01:12,906
and I think this is where countries

743
01:01:12,906 --> 01:01:16,686
have you really, you know, trapped,

744
01:01:17,006 --> 01:01:19,286
is that the longer you stay somewhere,

745
01:01:19,546 --> 01:01:21,026
the deeper your roots go.

746
01:01:21,486 --> 01:01:22,646
This is why countries, I think,

747
01:01:22,726 --> 01:01:25,146
like the Emirates, especially Dubai,

748
01:01:25,246 --> 01:01:25,946
somewhere like that,

749
01:01:26,346 --> 01:01:27,746
is still highly competitive

750
01:01:27,746 --> 01:01:29,466
because there's only been a few generations

751
01:01:29,466 --> 01:01:31,166
of people that have ever even lived there.

752
01:01:31,166 --> 01:01:36,906
and as a result their friends and family are probably still somewhere else you know 90% of

753
01:01:36,906 --> 01:01:43,646
is is is incomers and they'll be outgoers at the drop of a hat if things turn around

754
01:01:43,646 --> 01:01:49,706
and places like the UK they know that intrinsically they they can viscerally feel that

755
01:01:49,706 --> 01:01:54,846
that they can do all kinds of stuff before you get up and go and and unfortunately they they

756
01:01:54,846 --> 01:02:01,066
appear to be doing that and um I'm I'm one of the people who's kind of I don't know put it this way

757
01:02:01,066 --> 01:02:06,186
It's discussed at the kitchen table for the first time in the last few years, the option of moving.

758
01:02:06,346 --> 01:02:11,586
I think currently in its form, it's like, well, let's wait for the kids to reach a certain age and then do it.

759
01:02:11,906 --> 01:02:15,966
But, you know, if push comes to shove, it won't be that.

760
01:02:16,346 --> 01:02:17,266
I can assure you.

761
01:02:17,366 --> 01:02:18,086
I just know.

762
01:02:18,086 --> 01:02:25,986
What would be your line in the sand to leave Sark, to leave Europe?

763
01:02:25,986 --> 01:02:31,606
um my circumstances are probably a bit different in the sense that sort of every

764
01:02:31,606 --> 01:02:39,606
seven or ten years i tend to go for a significant life change and i i'm generally concerned that if

765
01:02:39,606 --> 01:02:43,806
you live in small island communities and i'm not in one for the first time i lived in the

766
01:02:43,806 --> 01:02:51,946
galapagos islands for quite some years as well um you become a bit too closely associated with

767
01:02:51,946 --> 01:02:57,866
that island and maybe a bit too focused on that you know island life and then it's good to throw

768
01:02:57,866 --> 01:03:04,266
yourself into a different situation again to make sure you remain competitive and you you know your

769
01:03:04,266 --> 01:03:11,646
life's not all about this one place that you live in i i've yeah god i i don't know i mean i'm having

770
01:03:11,646 --> 01:03:15,606
that debate with myself i mean i have no one to speak to at the kitchen table so you know i just

771
01:03:15,606 --> 01:03:21,066
make my own decisions but i'm talking to myself i i look at options and for me it's very much

772
01:03:21,066 --> 01:03:26,786
business and career driven and I've had some unbelievable opportunities offered to me because

773
01:03:26,786 --> 01:03:32,406
of the work that I did in Sark. None of them has come through to a point where I have signed

774
01:03:32,406 --> 01:03:39,926
anything but they're coming my way and you know will I be there forever? At the very least for me

775
01:03:39,926 --> 01:03:45,406
it's been obvious thing to maybe move to Guernsey you know where the infrastructure is better, better

776
01:03:45,406 --> 01:03:52,306
restaurants, less issues with, you know, transport and infrastructure and so on and so forth.

777
01:03:52,946 --> 01:03:56,426
I don't know. I'm looking at options, but right now I'm not going anywhere.

778
01:03:58,346 --> 01:04:02,686
I'll be honest, we've had Guernsey and Jersey up on right move a couple of times in the last few

779
01:04:02,686 --> 01:04:08,046
years. I mean, what I didn't realize is you have a two-tier or they have a two-tier

780
01:04:08,046 --> 01:04:13,666
housing market there, right? One for incomers and one for people from the area.

781
01:04:13,666 --> 01:04:18,526
absolutely yeah and the price differences are quite dramatic yeah it's like and twice as much

782
01:04:18,526 --> 01:04:22,306
if you're an income yeah and again there are so many loopholes and special regulations that you

783
01:04:22,306 --> 01:04:27,346
only are aware of once you really spend a bit of time researching that so for example for me

784
01:04:27,346 --> 01:04:34,066
once i've been in sark for eight years i gain the right to live in the cheap part of the guernsey

785
01:04:34,066 --> 01:04:39,726
housing market ah because you're a local at that point it's sort of it's a special thing for sark

786
01:04:39,726 --> 01:04:41,026
But are there many rentals?

787
01:04:41,066 --> 01:04:43,726
I can't imagine there would be many rentals in that market.

788
01:04:44,006 --> 01:04:45,006
Yeah, there's everything.

789
01:04:45,166 --> 01:04:46,906
I mean, Guernsey has 62,000 people.

790
01:04:47,186 --> 01:04:50,806
And I mean, I'm probably just used to there's just nothing on Sark.

791
01:04:50,806 --> 01:04:59,006
No, but I mean, like if you look at where I live, rentals were decimated by, for example, Airbnb, because I live in a tourist area.

792
01:04:59,006 --> 01:05:06,466
some people realized that renting someone their house for like a thousand a month or renting it

793
01:05:06,466 --> 01:05:12,966
out five days five days a month for a thousand is a better option and and as a result there were

794
01:05:12,966 --> 01:05:18,666
very few properties to to live in long term you can find rentals in guernsey and i i there i would

795
01:05:18,666 --> 01:05:23,866
have less hesitation to buy something because guernsey is not at in an existential risk like

796
01:05:23,866 --> 01:05:28,306
sark for example you know you buying a house in guernsey doesn't mean you end up with a stranded

797
01:05:28,306 --> 01:05:33,766
asset which in sark you may well end up doing but if the government whatever the uk government does

798
01:05:33,766 --> 01:05:40,926
what what's what are the implications on guernsey and jersey and sark for example sark nothing in the

799
01:05:40,926 --> 01:05:45,726
first instance nothing because these islands all govern themselves they're independent from the uk

800
01:05:45,726 --> 01:05:53,306
in the second instance yes there's a dialogue and guernsey and jersey can't do any wild things so

801
01:05:53,306 --> 01:05:59,786
if Guernsey tomorrow started to offer a business visa specifically for sanctioned Russian oligarchs,

802
01:05:59,946 --> 01:06:03,706
you know, they would get a call from London and, you know, would be told off for doing that,

803
01:06:04,146 --> 01:06:05,646
even though theoretically it's in their right.

804
01:06:05,746 --> 01:06:07,026
But I mean, none of that would ever happen.

805
01:06:07,846 --> 01:06:13,466
In Guernsey, and I speak about Guernsey because that's next door to me and I've spent a lot of time there.

806
01:06:13,466 --> 01:06:16,646
I know very little about Jersey, but that's just my ignorance.

807
01:06:18,906 --> 01:06:21,986
In Guernsey, things look pretty good for the long term.

808
01:06:21,986 --> 01:06:38,666
I mean, there's either no debt or just a little bit of debt. The GDP as a percentage of the overall, sorry, the tax, the taxation as a percentage of GDP is still only 24%, which in other parts of Europe is double that.

809
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:43,044
crime and it's still a very happy place.

810
01:06:43,404 --> 01:06:49,344
So as a microcosm, it's not falling foul of the same problems

811
01:06:49,344 --> 01:06:52,424
that larger states are falling for?

812
01:06:52,584 --> 01:06:53,684
Not at all, no.

813
01:06:53,764 --> 01:06:54,724
And what would the reason be?

814
01:06:54,824 --> 01:06:57,064
Just more wealthier people there?

815
01:06:58,524 --> 01:07:00,344
I think it's culture.

816
01:07:01,164 --> 01:07:02,764
I'm not an expert for Guernsey.

817
01:07:02,884 --> 01:07:06,364
I hesitate somewhat to, you know, like portray the island in a certain way.

818
01:07:06,364 --> 01:07:14,944
but Guernsey is as I always say like how the UK used to be in the 1980s there was a certain culture

819
01:07:14,944 --> 01:07:19,564
things are being done in a certain way that's respected they're being done in the right way

820
01:07:19,564 --> 01:07:25,284
there is community people speak to each other things are coordinated in a reasonable fashion

821
01:07:25,284 --> 01:07:31,664
and is it improving no it's not exactly getting much better there either but it's it's a bit like

822
01:07:31,664 --> 01:07:35,304
Switzerland you know like it's such a happy place that whatever you complain about if you live in

823
01:07:35,304 --> 01:07:41,384
switzerland 99 of the rest of the world would love to take your place switzerland also though

824
01:07:41,384 --> 01:07:47,564
relatively wealthy place one of the and we'll wrap it up money money helps i have a jewish

825
01:07:47,564 --> 01:07:54,844
friend who always says his mom told him whether you're poor or you're rich it's great to have money

826
01:07:54,844 --> 01:08:03,324
but i mean the truth the truth of the matter is whenever we discuss on this podcast

827
01:08:03,324 --> 01:08:10,364
options, geo-arbitrage options, basically, you really end up coming down to two sort of

828
01:08:10,364 --> 01:08:16,704
categories. One is you go to where the rich people are. The other is you go to where the system hasn't

829
01:08:16,704 --> 01:08:22,744
quite, you know, managed to get as ingrained somewhere like Paraguay or here. And they're the

830
01:08:22,744 --> 01:08:29,124
two options, unfortunately. And, you know, so that you see a lot of wealthy places around the world,

831
01:08:29,124 --> 01:08:30,464
which are doing absolutely fine.

832
01:08:30,544 --> 01:08:34,384
They're like isolated from what you see

833
01:08:34,384 --> 01:08:36,764
in these great large states,

834
01:08:36,884 --> 01:08:38,424
which are essentially failing.

835
01:08:38,604 --> 01:08:39,084
There's not, you know.

836
01:08:40,344 --> 01:08:42,644
And it's a sad thing, really.

837
01:08:42,944 --> 01:08:45,604
I mean, when I think it through,

838
01:08:45,704 --> 01:08:49,004
it's really sad to think that that's the system we're in.

839
01:08:49,204 --> 01:08:53,244
And that you and I, I think, both come to the conclusion

840
01:08:53,244 --> 01:08:55,224
that you can't actually fix it.

841
01:08:55,624 --> 01:08:56,444
You can't fix it.

842
01:08:56,444 --> 01:09:01,524
The only fix is a collapse fix, which is a terrible fix.

843
01:09:01,684 --> 01:09:02,824
It's the worst kind.

844
01:09:03,524 --> 01:09:05,504
But you can't unravel this.

845
01:09:05,824 --> 01:09:10,724
This is a bunch of string and so knotted, you cannot unravel it.

846
01:09:11,164 --> 01:09:12,424
You have to throw it away.

847
01:09:12,464 --> 01:09:16,144
Or in the case of what we do here, yeah, you have to build something new somewhere,

848
01:09:16,624 --> 01:09:31,408
which is inevitably in one of those countries that hasn quite amassed all this bureaucracy and red tape and you know But yeah I mean I don know Let not end on a let not end on a tell me something positive

849
01:09:31,728 --> 01:09:31,928
Come on.

850
01:09:32,288 --> 01:09:35,368
Well, what you just said, I would, I would second every word of that.

851
01:09:35,628 --> 01:09:40,728
On a positive note, I mean, to repeat what I said earlier, you have more options than ever before.

852
01:09:40,728 --> 01:09:44,648
And I mean, I'm old enough to remember, for example, in the 90s, when you want to fly somewhere,

853
01:09:44,728 --> 01:09:45,928
you had to go to a travel agency.

854
01:09:45,928 --> 01:09:49,468
They looked up the secret knowledge in their computer about the flight times.

855
01:09:49,608 --> 01:09:51,368
Then you had to make a bank transfer to them.

856
01:09:51,468 --> 01:09:54,388
Three days later, you picked up your paper ticket, which you needed at the airport.

857
01:09:55,268 --> 01:09:58,688
We live in a golden age of you've got your smartphone in your pocket.

858
01:09:59,428 --> 01:10:06,128
Countries are vying for the productive, the young, and anyone who's got at least a few dollars in their pockets.

859
01:10:08,308 --> 01:10:14,868
And it's sad to give up on the country that you grew up in, that gave you opportunities.

860
01:10:14,868 --> 01:10:17,308
that you feel deeply rooted in.

861
01:10:17,528 --> 01:10:19,128
But unfortunately,

862
01:10:19,708 --> 01:10:21,388
there is not always a happy ending

863
01:10:21,388 --> 01:10:22,348
for everything in life.

864
01:10:22,768 --> 01:10:24,948
And sometimes you just need to recognize reality

865
01:10:24,948 --> 01:10:26,548
for what it is and move on

866
01:10:26,548 --> 01:10:29,788
and deal with it in the best possible way.

867
01:10:29,888 --> 01:10:31,448
And I think this is why, you know,

868
01:10:31,488 --> 01:10:33,628
another reason why I'm at the Free Cities Conference

869
01:10:33,628 --> 01:10:34,348
this time again,

870
01:10:34,388 --> 01:10:35,568
because I want to see what's happening

871
01:10:35,568 --> 01:10:36,628
in this industry because,

872
01:10:37,388 --> 01:10:40,328
and I'm not getting paid to say this,

873
01:10:40,428 --> 01:10:42,448
but I think your industry,

874
01:10:42,448 --> 01:10:48,788
you know the team that you're working with you are about to take off in a way that I don't think

875
01:10:48,788 --> 01:10:56,788
people many people would think possibly yet and I think you're on the cusp of something absolutely

876
01:10:56,788 --> 01:11:02,908
dramatic and amazing and probably in a few years time we'll be you know at this conference in a

877
01:11:02,908 --> 01:11:06,508
different venue because so many more people will want to attend and we'll think back to you know

878
01:11:06,508 --> 01:11:10,388
the days when we met in Prague and there were a couple hundred people and you know we did these

879
01:11:10,388 --> 01:11:15,208
podcasts and stuff like that so i think great stuff is going to happen in new industries with

880
01:11:15,208 --> 01:11:22,488
a free cities movement geo arbitrage plan b all this stuff and all i can say is you know come to

881
01:11:22,488 --> 01:11:29,488
this event listen to the podcasts support the group by buying the books and the various other

882
01:11:29,488 --> 01:11:35,648
outputs that people affiliate with it have created i'm i'm only loosely part of it because you know

883
01:11:35,648 --> 01:11:40,528
the plan that I had didn't work out so I'm just basically a user of the whole alternative system

884
01:11:40,528 --> 01:11:48,288
and I love it you are a user but you are part of it Sven it's um because there is you know it's um

885
01:11:48,288 --> 01:11:53,808
it's a it's an ecosystem which is basically about living about living with people and about you know

886
01:11:53,808 --> 01:12:01,148
it's not some walled place that no one can come in it's not a gated you know it's a it's a it's a

887
01:12:01,148 --> 01:12:16,932
is an industry that needs all kinds of people basically and I do agree with you that the you know things like the fact that there are these new memes that appear in daily life about moving to other countries and moving to better places

888
01:12:17,432 --> 01:12:20,632
Those are the signals that we are in this time.

889
01:12:20,852 --> 01:12:27,052
And I know, and as you probably know, there's a lot of things about to pop, so to speak, in this industry.

890
01:12:27,452 --> 01:12:30,172
And we're all here for it.

891
01:12:30,172 --> 01:12:35,592
I mean, you know, so yeah, many thanks for popping in.

892
01:12:36,072 --> 01:12:38,572
I won't be able to be there for your talk, unfortunately,

893
01:12:38,712 --> 01:12:40,912
but I think I probably got the gist of it just then.

894
01:12:42,132 --> 01:12:43,472
Delighted to have this conversation.

895
01:12:43,732 --> 01:12:45,152
Looking forward to seeing you again in the future.

896
01:12:45,312 --> 01:12:48,112
And hope this was of use to your readers, followers.

897
01:12:48,432 --> 01:12:49,592
It will be, it will be.

898
01:12:49,732 --> 01:12:54,792
And I'm still, I'm still, I still think Sark will happen

899
01:12:54,792 --> 01:12:56,992
because it has to happen.

900
01:12:56,992 --> 01:13:05,512
like if sark sark's like um you know either sark happens the way that some in some shape or form

901
01:13:05,512 --> 01:13:13,992
the way you envisaged it or it just dies so so what it can't and it won't die no one's going to

902
01:13:13,992 --> 01:13:18,252
let sark die it's a beautiful place and it's got a history it's got people that are living there

903
01:13:18,252 --> 01:13:25,112
but it it it needs that there's no other what's the alternative like some form of communism

904
01:13:25,112 --> 01:13:31,992
that's not going to solve the problem so so i'm still i'm still there with it i think it i think

905
01:13:31,992 --> 01:13:36,172
one day just like you say one day we'll be sitting talking about the good old days when we all met up

906
01:13:36,172 --> 01:13:42,812
in prague we'll we may be on sark talking about it and and i because i think sark has to happen

907
01:13:42,812 --> 01:13:48,832
because i think when you have a resource when you have a resource like that somebody somewhere

908
01:13:48,832 --> 01:13:53,912
is going to make it happen because people look for things like that like you did people look

909
01:13:53,912 --> 01:14:00,252
look for for for things to transform like that and i think it will it's just difficult at the moment

910
01:14:00,252 --> 01:14:05,272
but um but good luck anyway and and thanks for popping in it's good to see you again i'll i'll

911
01:14:05,272 --> 01:14:08,232
we'll see where our paths cross next thanks tim

912
01:14:08,232 --> 01:14:18,112
right here's the addendum i mentioned at the beginning of this episode basically during the

913
01:14:18,112 --> 01:14:25,892
show as you heard Sven mentioned that he was about to write an article and in a couple of places he

914
01:14:25,892 --> 01:14:33,372
went into more detail than what we discussed in the show I will leave a link to the full article

915
01:14:33,372 --> 01:14:39,272
in the show notes so go and check that out what we did cover from the article I'll mention those

916
01:14:39,272 --> 01:14:44,332
things now because it'll just give you a good recap on what's going over there he talked about

917
01:14:44,332 --> 01:15:01,136
taxes rising sharply and reserves running out He talked about the Guernsey loan discussion offering one and a half million the big infrastructure backlog and the electricity saga as a major sort of risk factor

918
01:15:01,136 --> 01:15:09,476
on SARC. And then the demographics slash tourism decline. These were all quite a substantial part

919
01:15:09,476 --> 01:15:16,596
of the article but we already addressed those things what was new and i'll go into these now

920
01:15:16,596 --> 01:15:23,816
very briefly the tax overhaul that he mentioned is moving from talk to process the article reports

921
01:15:23,816 --> 01:15:31,916
that parliament explicitly confirmed in the november 2025 budget debate that there will be

922
01:15:31,916 --> 01:15:40,816
in quotes a big public consultation next year about a fairer way to raise tax revenue the secondly

923
01:15:40,816 --> 01:15:47,976
the guernsey loan that he mentioned has conditions that do raise autonomy questions

924
01:15:47,976 --> 01:15:57,616
his article says that sark pledged future alcohol tax revenue as collateral for the 1.5 million loan

925
01:15:57,616 --> 01:16:04,796
and obviously then raises the question of whether this could be a step towards debt servitude.

926
01:16:05,336 --> 01:16:06,996
One to look out for.

927
01:16:07,196 --> 01:16:11,116
Thirdly, the infrastructure numbers are put on the record.

928
01:16:11,116 --> 01:16:18,156
The article actually cites an internal document putting needs of around £20 million

929
01:16:18,156 --> 01:16:23,996
versus an annual government budget of £2.5 million.

930
01:16:23,996 --> 01:16:33,296
pounds and sven's estimate of 20 to 50 million is the total backlog in his article right finally

931
01:16:33,296 --> 01:16:41,536
electricity crisis he quotes the details much deeper and in his article he claims residents

932
01:16:41,536 --> 01:16:51,076
face a one pound 13 per kilowatt hour electricity cost which is incredible and actually sven says

933
01:16:51,076 --> 01:16:58,816
it's the world's highest electricity cost which was later reduced by government edict the company

934
01:16:58,816 --> 01:17:05,876
is claiming damages and the government is attempting nationalization and a taxpayer funded

935
01:17:05,876 --> 01:17:15,156
community-owned structure total costs for that could be double digit millions with what Sven

936
01:17:15,156 --> 01:17:23,676
calls a in inverted commas non-zero risk of bankrupting SARC right there you go that's all

937
01:17:23,676 --> 01:17:29,556
the latest stuff over and above what we already talked about in the interview many thanks for

938
01:17:29,556 --> 01:17:32,876
listening to this addendum and I will see you in the next one