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Welcome to the Free Cities Podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 129 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Well, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, wherever you are in the world.

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And this is your weekly reminder that countrywide power outages are a thing and they're something that's worth contemplating.

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you may have seen and i mentioned it on last week's show that spain and portugal experienced

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major power outages recently for me it was a couple of days ago i'm recording this in advance

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i quote houses offices trains traffic lights and even madrid open tennis tournament were all hit

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causing chaos for millions of people now you may wonder why this happened i did and the two answers

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that most easily come to mind are incompetency and of course conspiracy but to be honest either

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way it doesn't matter which one it was it matters that it happened and if you are the kind of person

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that would like to insulate yourself from these kinds of problems in life then I would like to

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introduce you to Veritas Village our most excellent sponsor for this episode. Now Veritas

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developments. Their very latest project is in Panama which is in the process of being built

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and you can own a property there a perfect climate for growing your own food too if that's your kind

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get in touch with them to see working models of their setups and learn how you could own a piece

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of this project and of course the peace of mind that comes along with owning it www.ecovillages.life

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forward slash podcast please use that link so they know that we sent you or just jump into the show

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notes and click on the link in there back to today's show and it's a fascinating one ian underwood

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My guest has been, well, a planetary scientist, an artificial intelligence researcher for NASA,

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the director of the renowned Ask Dr. Maths service, the co-founder of Bardo Farm and

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Shaolin Rifleworks, and a popular speaker at Liberty-related events.

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he's also written 20 books on liberty related subjects i'll give you some of the names to give

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you an idea of the way he thinks barefoot learning political conversation in three jokes the lie

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behind licensing and the libertarian case for public schools now we had a very long and interesting

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conversations a two-hour one and very i found it pretty hard to sum up what we spoke about so i'm

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actually quite interested to hear what the AI made of this conversation. We did cover quite a

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bit of ground. Okay, let's see. Timothy Allen engages in a thought-provoking discussion.

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Blimey AI, you always say that. Just think up something new. Maybe I should instruct it too.

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With Ian exploring the multifaceted relationship between individual rights, government authority,

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and societal norms. The conversation begins with a dive into the nuances of gun ownership across

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cultures, particularly contrasting American perspectives with European views on self-defense

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and government power. Ian shares his insights on the philosophical underpinnings of governance,

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emphasizing the importance of consent and individual rights. The dialogue evolves into

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a broader examination of how technology reshapes our understanding of governance,

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community interactions and the potential for new models of societal organisation. As they navigate

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topics such as the role of education in shaping responsible citizens, the implications of social

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credit systems and the evolving landscape of political discourse, the conversation challenges

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listeners to reconsider the foundations of their beliefs about freedom, responsibility

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and the purpose of government. Now that's actually pretty good for once. AI, well done.

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It was quite a mind-blowing conversation for me actually because Ian introduced me to

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a new model of governance that he has come up with himself. The AI didn't really pick up on it

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too much there but listen out for the part where Ian lays out his new and phenomenally interesting

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model of governance a sort of version of extreme personal responsibility that uses 21st century

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technology to create what looks like an extremely equitable system for all. Ian's a really interesting

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bloke I have to say and I love conversations like this. I was genuinely impressed with this idea

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and as far as we know we discussed it it's actually a new idea if you don't think so I'd

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love to hear from you because I've always thought there's no new ideas in the world these days but

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I'd love to talk about it more with somebody else anyway I very much hope to make another trip

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back to Ian and his wife's 300 acre off-grid homestead in New Hampshire and record another

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interview sometime in the meantime many thanks Ian and enjoy this one folks it's a good one as

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I said last week there will be no Bitcoin strategic reserve and NOSTA comments this week since I'm

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recording this intro in advance again and we'll be away speaking in Morocco at the Plumia Connect

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Summit so I'll be bringing back the comments next week along with some very new and obviously

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stimulating conversations from my trip see you soon and always remember to enjoy these conversations

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the way they are intended by myself you guessed it just sit back relax and enjoy my conversation with

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ian underwood

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that's pretty much it you don't need a permit for an air rifle but you do for a shotgun

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and there's quite strict rules about it.

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You have to keep it in a special type of cupboards,

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a metal cupboard, and you're not allowed to keep the ammo there.

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You have to keep that somewhere else.

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And can they come and inspect anytime they want?

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Probably.

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I don't know because I only have an air rifle.

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But they're, yeah, I mean, they're not.

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It's very difficult to kill someone with an air rifle,

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But you would never do anything other than shoot small animals, really.

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I mean, and the American view on it, depending on who you're talking to, it's not necessarily about self-defense, right?

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It's about defending yourself from your government.

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I know.

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Yeah, that is a common misconception amongst Europeans.

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I've talked a lot about that on this podcast.

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And that was a big lesson for me, actually.

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Yeah.

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Like we aren't forced in Europe to have the debate about a number of things that you do.

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Guns is one of them.

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Abortion.

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Things like this.

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We just don't have it forced on us.

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So we don't have to choose a side.

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But I do enjoy the process of deciding.

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And with both of those, both guns and abortion, I can see the value of both arguments.

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and my conclusion is with abortion or no my conclusion with the guns for example is

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that yes protecting yourself from your government is phenomenal um

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the and being able to defend yourself of course but if i was given a choice between a very

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a culture with a huge amount of guns or a culture with no guns currently i'd still go for the no

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guns one because there's almost no gun crime at all like and there's no accidental deaths by guns

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etc etc but obviously yeah you would probably look back over us and go well look your government's

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treating you like pieces of shit and if you had guns you wouldn't be so it's very hard to say

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because yeah we're all we're living in different scenarios if i was living here i'm almost certain

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i would own a load of guns and i would be the same as that but there's the option's not there

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I mean, it's a different culture, certainly.

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But also, you don't get the choice of a society with no guns because you can make them in your garage.

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They're not complicated machinery.

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You can spend thousands of dollars and get a very nice, precise one.

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But something that will just shoot at this distance and protect you or hurt somebody, it's a tube.

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It's a metal tube, you know?

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Right.

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What about the ammunition, though?

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I reload my own ammunition.

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And you can have black powder.

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You can literally, if you want to, make black powder at home.

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You can melt lead into balls.

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You could use whatever technology they had in, say, 1830, you know, out in the western United States.

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You could do all that yourself, you know, and you can make the parts on any kind of machinery.

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If you've got a mill and you've got a lathe, you can make a gun.

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So it's not, it's sort of like saying, let's have a society without arithmetic.

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You can't because somebody is going to figure it out and then you can do it.

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So that's sort of the discussion that you have a lot in America is people say, yes, we should have no guns.

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And it's like, you can't have no guns.

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You can, because people who want guns are always going to have them.

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So the question is only whether everybody else can have them.

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The people who won't do the damage, the people who won't harm anybody, you can take them away from them.

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because if they're law-abiding, they'll let you and they'll say,

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well, I guess I have to give up my guns.

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But the people who really need to use guns as tools are always going to have them.

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I think that was my conclusion is that the arms race in guns has started

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and it can't be stopped.

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So in the U.S., you can't backtrack.

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So you have to look at where you are and then make a decision based on that.

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And the decision has to be, if you want to be fair, if you want to be free,

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is it's up to everyone to do what they want to do right yes but it's almost like we didn't sorry

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about it it's almost like we didn't really we haven't gone down that route yet and as a result

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nobody thinks about it no one thinks about guns even it's it's very rare to see a policeman with

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a gun no no local policeman would would have a gun you have specialist gun units that okay that

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operate in cities i thought that had changed when i was a kid i knew that you know the london

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bobbies would just have a nightstick and that was it but i thought that changed and you now see

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them on street corners in in cities yeah in the middle of westminster where the politicians are

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and right and they're not handguns and i don't think they're whatever automatic i don't know

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what they are yeah but um no it's it's it really doesn't exist the whole culture of it and right

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I think most people would say that's good.

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And because they would look at a place like America and say,

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you've had,

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you have a lot more deaths from due to guns than we do.

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And you know that because there's mistake,

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accidental deaths that if the gun wasn't there would happen.

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And, but the truth is the answer is it doesn't matter because the arms race has begun and,

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and it can't stop because if you try and stop it,

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then you basically let only a certain number of people have guns

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and they're either criminals or the government.

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Right.

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Because everyone else, if you're law abiding, is going to give it up.

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Right. Yeah.

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And so that's exactly the why.

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I mean, people who are for gun ownership will try to bring that argument up

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as much as they can, that this is not about hunting.

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It's not about the guy who's trying to rob you.

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It's about your government saying,

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we're going to start putting people in jail for saying the wrong things or we're going to start

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making people you know take this injection or that injection or get this medical procedure

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or we're going to start saying you can't raise certain animals and at a certain point you just

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say well you can try you know here's a question then because i i've had this question with a

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number of people what is the actual reality of somebody you know um combating their government

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with a weapon like in real in real life because i've when i think it through i think

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it's going to be very difficult say say right you know the government says right you're not

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allowed to have i don't know something in your garden here and it really pisses you off and

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they come around to take it away and you and they're like no i'm gonna i'm gonna confront this

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at that point it's you and it's them and they're more powerful than you right right so what what's

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the reality of something like that actually happening like say they start creating femur

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camps and they start putting dissident minds in camps and stuff like that okay so there there's i

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have an anecdote and i have a historical thing from just not too recent not too far in the in

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the past where uh the bureau of land management was trying to take kick ranchers off of land that

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they'd been using for you know decades and some government agents showed up and said we're gonna

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kick all your cattle off and kick you off and they brought 100 friends with ars and the government

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backed down they're just like we can't win this this is uh what's the name of the guy i want to

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say brody but um just look up bureau land management standoff and you'll find it um so that was an

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example right yeah go into that a little bit so they the the federal government was it or the

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federal government backed down from a bunch of guys with guns absolutely some of those guys ended

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up going to jail but then getting i think the guy who led it got released on it because this trial

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wasn't conducted properly. We know there's a guy here, I think his name's Jerry Loomis,

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and he took a plea deal. And so when all the other guys got off, he was stuck in jail.

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But the government just, they backed down because it's like, well, there's 20 of us,

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and there's 100 of you, and what are we going to do?

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And what about the law itself that elicited this? Did that get backtracked?

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It was, it was, the whole thing was, it wasn't clear what the law was and what their rights were.

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but they're like, we've been here. Our fathers were here. Our grandfathers were here. We've been

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grazing this land. There's no reason for the federal government to own in the first place,

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which was a different issue, but you can't just come and kick us off. So, that's one example.

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There's a much older historical example, which is Athens, Tennessee, I believe, where there was

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a lot of local corruption, and they were rigging elections, and a bunch of guys had just come back

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from the war and they were all armed and they drove that government out of town. So it does

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happen. The anecdote that I have is, so in America, when you buy more than one gun at a time,

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there's a special form. The ATF requires the gun dealer to fill out and send to the chief of police,

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the local chief of police. And we happened to be talking to our local chief of police about this

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one day. And we said, so what do you do with those forms? He said, I shred them. And we're like,

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why do you do that? He's like, I don't want to know what anybody has. Because if they ever give

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me the order to go around and confiscate people's guns, I'm going to resign because I might get them

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from the first house. And I could get lucky and get them from the second house. But by the time I

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get to the third house, I'm toast. Right? So, part of it is, it's like a mutually assured destruction,

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right? Nobody wins if you actually use nuclear weapons. But the thing is to have a credible

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threat and so the purpose of having an armed citizenry is not it's to not have those fights

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right it's to make those fights so costly for the government that they will always be looking for

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some means other than direct force to try to push you around it's the the meme is true the european

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mind cannot comprehend that it's really interesting because and i think if you if you go into it it

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must have something to do with your literally your dna and your your your your amendments and

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your bills that allow you know that your um just the historical nature of the american person you

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know it is and we're there is a lot of europe envy in america where we look oh they're they're

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so civilized and so wonderful and we should be more like them and then there's you know the other

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part saying, no, no, no, we're different and we want to be different. So, one of the books that

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I have is called Politics and Three Jokes. And there are three jokes that lead to three questions.

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So, just as an experiment, I'd like to try this. So, my contention in the book is if you're going

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to get into a serious political discussion with somebody where you're actually trying to solve

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some problem, there are three questions that you should compare answers on. So, the first question

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is what's the purpose of government so as a an englishman or a european what would you say it is

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well i wouldn't say as an englishman necessarily necessarily the purpose of government well i i i

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know the theories whether or not i really understand whether this is correct or not

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i mean i would say it's the smallest thing it could be and probably it depends how big your

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country is if but if your country is too large um then because i think government should be you know

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local as local as possible but if you're talking about like a an overall government i would say

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it's probably protecting the kind of perimeter of your place like and protecting the rights of

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your property so your ownership of things however i would still want that to be done

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on a smaller level than say in the US.

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I think the federal government is like,

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it's too big an area of land to be in charge of, I think.

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Okay, but those are all mechanisms

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and how big a government should be.

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I'm just saying, let's say you didn't have a government

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and you're suddenly thinking, hey, we need to have one.

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Why?

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Why do you have a government?

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What job is it supposed to do?

227
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And so I'll just give you the answer.

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No, no, no, don't tell me.

229
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I want to give you an answer.

230
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So the point here is that there are lots of different answers.

231
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There is no right answer.

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But I want to think it through so I can hear, because I want to hear your response to what I say.

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So we've got no, I mean, right at the moment, we don't have a government.

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Let's face it.

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Yeah, we're going to form a government.

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Why are we going to do that?

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But we're literally living as, we're anarchists right now, you and me.

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There's no one telling us what to do.

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We're sitting here.

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We don really need one by the looks of it Not in your property and what you doing here and your neighbors and but if we go out far enough there may be a threat from the outside and if your

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country's large enough if that threat's down you know 700 miles away it may not be of concern to

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you but in the future it might so you might appreciate someone mind you they'll probably

243
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sort it out down there won't they i don't know really so what so what are they doing for me right

244
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yeah exactly i don't know so the funny thing is you ask people and there are a lot some people say

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you know and you'll hear politicians say this the the job of the government is to protect people

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to protect people's lives or to protect their property you'll hear taught in schools i've heard

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kids tell me oh the purpose of government is to do things for people that they can't do for

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themselves or the the purpose is to make things fair or to make things equitable or to keep people

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happy or whatever. So, I'm just saying there are lots of answers and none of those are specifically

250
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wrong. But say I agree with Thomas Jefferson that the point of government is to protect your rights

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or I agree with Frederick Bastiat that government is nothing more than organized self-defense.

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If I start from that answer and you start from an answer about we're here to protect people

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or we're here to do something or you know redistribute wealth or whatever we're really

254
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not going to agree on what counts as a valid solution right i think the way my thought process

255
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works if i analyze it now is that i always start with myself what can i do and as it gets larger

256
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and larger as an issue i ask myself can i do it with my neighbors the people i know as soon as it

257
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gets to the point where i need to if i need to include people that have no knowledge of me that's

258
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probably where the point that where the government might exist but um in all honesty i could live in

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like where your guys live and i could live here and never have contact with the government my

260
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whole life sure yes you know if i really wanted to so i really don't you know i mean you could but

261
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there is a government and it is doing things for you that you don't really notice like here here's

262
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one of the things that you would like to have in a civilized place. I should be able to drive away

263
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from my house for the day or two days or a week and come back and all my shit will still be here.

264
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That's what I want. And that's one of the things that government is in some sort of unorganized,

265
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inchoate, not well understood way providing for me. Now, whether you call that protecting my

266
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property or protecting my rights, that's a discussion that needs to be had. But the thing

267
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is i am agreeing you know that that you have rights and i will not transgress your rights and

268
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i have rights and you won't transgress mine and the government is just there that if one of us

269
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steps out of line you have a way in an organized way to come in and do something about it so that

270
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it is just one way but i'm saying it's just one answer but do you think that in that particular

271
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instance is it better to have the government mean intermediate or the people that live around here

272
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Like, wouldn't you rather deal with them direct?

273
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Well, the people are the government in that case, right?

274
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They are.

275
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We agree that we have a mutual protection society.

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So it looks more like NATO than like the English government or the American government where NATO just says, look, you're France, I'm Germany.

277
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You be France.

278
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I'll be Germany.

279
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I'm not going to tell you what to do.

280
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You're not going to tell me what to do.

281
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But if somebody attacks you, I'll help.

282
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And if somebody attacks me, you'll help.

283
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So in that sense, Germany and France are protecting each other's sort of right to exist and to be who they are and to live the way they want.

284
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They're not imposing any values on it.

285
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They're just saying, you have certain rights as a country.

286
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We have certain rights as a country.

287
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If somebody from outside tries to disturb that, we will help each other.

288
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And if your government is a government that just protects rights, that's about it.

289
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It is a very small government.

290
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And all it's doing is saying, if people attack each other, we will make it easy for the other people who would not like to be attacked to protect each other.

291
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That's it.

292
00:24:41,149 --> 00:24:43,169
So that is, again, that's one version.

293
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The point is, if you think that government is about redistributing wealth or making things fair, then like any question that we think about medical care, gun control, education, we're just, we might as well not even talk, right?

294
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So the second question then is from where does government get its legitimate power?

295
00:25:02,729 --> 00:25:04,209
Well, where does it get its power?

296
00:25:04,609 --> 00:25:05,489
Where does it get its power?

297
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We allow them, we say, we will allow you to intermediate between us.

298
00:25:11,249 --> 00:25:13,009
So when you say we, what do you mean we?

299
00:25:13,309 --> 00:25:13,809
Well, me.

300
00:25:14,389 --> 00:25:15,229
And you and me.

301
00:25:15,489 --> 00:25:18,369
And if we disagree, then what?

302
00:25:18,609 --> 00:25:21,609
Well, then you'll be fighting the government and I won't.

303
00:25:21,849 --> 00:25:25,309
Or you'll be fighting the government and I won't, or we'll both be fighting the government

304
00:25:25,309 --> 00:25:30,189
if we're talking about thousands of people, and the government will take action,

305
00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:33,109
what gives it the power to take action?

306
00:25:33,449 --> 00:25:40,129
Well, it's a kind of an agreed abstract force, like I say.

307
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And if the more, and you know, I'm not a fan of democracy,

308
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but in the sense that if enough people agree that this abstract force exists

309
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and they can convince other people, then it kind of does.

310
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So that's the exact issue then for, in some senses, if enough people agree, okay?

311
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So some people will say the source of government power is majority rule.

312
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If enough people vote, then it gets to do this.

313
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Now, here's an interesting thing.

314
00:26:10,129 --> 00:26:20,309
If that's actually true, if majority rule is the source of the power and not just a mechanism for exercising power, then there's no such thing as rights, right?

315
00:26:20,309 --> 00:26:28,330
You cannot talk about the right to say no in a situation where enough people can do anything.

316
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So, that leads you to a contradiction right away.

317
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And so, people who think, oh, well, majority rule, blah, blah, blah, that's how we do things, and I have rights.

318
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It's like that's an immovable object and an irresistible force in the same universe.

319
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They can't exist.

320
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So, you have to make that choice.

321
00:26:45,109 --> 00:26:48,649
You have rights, or majority rule is a source of whatever.

322
00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:57,749
So, again, I would go back to Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence where he just says, governments get their legitimate power from the consent of the governed.

323
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And then people will say, oh, well, consent is majority rule.

324
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And then you say, well, here's an interesting thing.

325
00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:04,509
Go look at our federal constitution.

326
00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:06,429
Sorry, you don't have one.

327
00:27:06,489 --> 00:27:08,209
But we have a federal constitution.

328
00:27:08,369 --> 00:27:11,049
It has an Article 5 which says, here's how to amend the constitution.

329
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If it turns out that we've said the wrong thing or done the wrong thing, you need to do something, here are the steps that you go through.

330
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And then it says at the end, except whatever you do, you cannot deprive any state of equal suffrage in the Senate, equal representation in the Senate without its consent.

331
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So, 49 states say Hawaii only needs one senator.

332
00:27:33,529 --> 00:27:33,969
You know what?

333
00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:35,330
Hawaii can say, bite me.

334
00:27:36,129 --> 00:27:37,129
That's consent.

335
00:27:37,409 --> 00:27:38,749
That's not majority rule.

336
00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:45,409
So, you can't make a serious argument that anybody who set up the system confused majority rule of consent.

337
00:27:45,409 --> 00:27:51,689
They clearly knew the difference. So, again, if people think, well, you know, where you get

338
00:27:51,689 --> 00:27:56,949
government from is majority rule or just whoever is the strongest or whoever's the smartest,

339
00:27:57,169 --> 00:28:02,369
there's lots of ways to answer that. And you look around the world, right? In some countries,

340
00:28:02,749 --> 00:28:08,989
we get our power from God. In some countries, well, we have a king who got his power from God.

341
00:28:08,989 --> 00:28:14,269
In some countries, it's just whoever is the baddest dude is the guy, right?

342
00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:17,330
Those are all answers, right?

343
00:28:18,049 --> 00:28:23,489
But the American answer, as I think of it, is government operates from consent.

344
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So, if I believe that government protects rights and operates from consent, and you think something else,

345
00:28:29,969 --> 00:28:36,849
then our chances of deciding how should we have socialized medicine, or how should we run public schools,

346
00:28:36,849 --> 00:28:39,409
or who should be able to have what kinds of guns where,

347
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:44,090
we're just not even having the same conversation, right?

348
00:28:44,409 --> 00:28:47,349
And then the third question is, when is it okay to violate a principle?

349
00:28:47,729 --> 00:28:53,009
Can you say there's absolute freedom of speech unless somebody's feelings are going to be hurt

350
00:28:53,009 --> 00:28:58,070
or unless it might hurt us in a war effort or unless, unless, unless?

351
00:28:58,289 --> 00:29:00,669
Or do you just say, look, you can say whatever the hell you want?

352
00:29:01,309 --> 00:29:03,509
Well, I am that.

353
00:29:03,509 --> 00:29:07,769
I don't think if I believe in freedom of speech therefore I believe you should be able to say

354
00:29:07,769 --> 00:29:12,409
anything you want and you can I mean you can I can say anything I want right now right uh I believe

355
00:29:12,409 --> 00:29:17,589
actually there are people in England right now who are in prison yeah but what I mean is but I still

356
00:29:17,589 --> 00:29:23,149
can like I still can I could I could say anything I want right now I might have to deal with the

357
00:29:23,149 --> 00:29:32,149
consequences obviously but um yeah the the but in reality I appreciate that I'll probably choose not

358
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:38,489
to say certain things just because it causes hassle that i don't need or that you know you know

359
00:29:38,489 --> 00:29:43,209
that would be my response but yeah i i'm an absolutist in that but that's in your personal

360
00:29:43,209 --> 00:29:47,309
life as opposed to a bunch of other people getting together and saying that you can't say this you

361
00:29:47,309 --> 00:29:51,209
can't say this you can't say that or you must say this you must use these pronouns you must say this

362
00:29:51,209 --> 00:29:57,889
oath every day whatever that so these are the three questions though right what what do we have

363
00:29:57,889 --> 00:30:03,349
government for in the first place where does it get its power and if you stated something as a

364
00:30:03,349 --> 00:30:10,529
principle when is it okay to ignore that and if you don't agree on those then you're going nowhere

365
00:30:10,529 --> 00:30:16,129
right and i think this is one of the things that americans many americans would have very different

366
00:30:16,129 --> 00:30:20,409
answers than many europeans and that's sort of like they can't get their head around this idea

367
00:30:20,409 --> 00:30:24,269
they're like why would i want to fight my government my government's me and it's us all together and

368
00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:31,989
oh that's it's i think that's it i think that you've just hit it there that we do see our we're

369
00:30:31,989 --> 00:30:40,189
we we don't have the historical dna telling us that it's them and us we we think of the government

370
00:30:40,189 --> 00:30:47,509
as being people that help us to yeah you know but here it's much more that you were outlaws in a way

371
00:30:47,509 --> 00:30:52,689
you there was you had the freedom and then it was taken away by government rather than the other way

372
00:30:52,689 --> 00:30:59,369
around weird you know yeah kind of i mean it's it's it's maybe less about i mean to me it may

373
00:30:59,369 --> 00:31:03,889
have more to do with the fact that like there wasn't in america and then suddenly there was

374
00:31:03,889 --> 00:31:09,109
and like feeling in england it's like try to think of a time before there was an england it's just

375
00:31:09,109 --> 00:31:14,969
it's a weird concept you know or if you're in france or jordan it's like when when was there

376
00:31:14,969 --> 00:31:21,889
never this but this thing this america it it didn't exist and then it was created on purpose

377
00:31:21,889 --> 00:31:29,149
it was designed in a way that other countries were not they just grew organically and we were like

378
00:31:29,149 --> 00:31:33,769
okay screw that stuff we're not going to do any of this where you know and here's our bill of rights

379
00:31:33,769 --> 00:31:38,070
all the things that we hated that england did to us we're not going to do them to ourselves

380
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:42,589
and we're going to have this structure and here are the limits and and they wrote all this down

381
00:31:42,589 --> 00:31:51,109
we don't follow it but that's the design right so i think that where gun control is concerned or

382
00:31:51,109 --> 00:31:57,449
even things like, you know, socialized medicine or education. It's like, so I look at, and this is

383
00:31:57,449 --> 00:32:01,769
a sort of a meme, I think that's the right word, but an idea I'm trying to plant in people's heads

384
00:32:01,769 --> 00:32:10,529
all the time is, there are two, I think, primary tools that you use to resist a government that's

385
00:32:10,529 --> 00:32:16,949
trying to do too much. The first one is arms, and the second one's education. And so, I look at arms

386
00:32:16,949 --> 00:32:19,929
And the American idea is like, hands off.

387
00:32:20,729 --> 00:32:27,509
We have a Second Amendment, and you are not allowed to tell us what guns we can have, where we can take them, what we can do with them.

388
00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:30,029
I mean, we obviously can't commit crimes with them.

389
00:32:30,449 --> 00:32:36,570
But beyond that, you just don't – you don't get to tell us what we can have any more than China could tell you what to have, right?

390
00:32:37,089 --> 00:32:39,949
We might have to fight you someday, and you don't get to tell us.

391
00:32:40,509 --> 00:32:43,849
So that, to me, I look at education exactly the same way.

392
00:32:43,849 --> 00:32:50,289
It's like for all the reasons that the government should not be involved in guns, government should not be involved in education, right?

393
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:59,169
I've got a t-shirt over here that I just had made for a friend, which it's got a picture of Linus from the comics for Peanuts.

394
00:32:59,889 --> 00:33:10,349
And he's talking to – he's in school and talking to somebody behind him and says, nobody will give you the education you need to overthrow them, which I think sums it up perfectly, right?

395
00:33:11,329 --> 00:33:16,149
The government would never give you the guns that you would need to remove it from power.

396
00:33:16,409 --> 00:33:21,849
The government is never going to give you the education that you would need to remove

397
00:33:21,849 --> 00:33:24,689
it from power or to know that you should remove it from power.

398
00:33:25,229 --> 00:33:31,049
So, to me, the idea that government should be involved in either of those things or in

399
00:33:31,049 --> 00:33:32,009
religion, right?

400
00:33:32,209 --> 00:33:37,929
It's just, there are just certain areas where there just should be no government involvement

401
00:33:37,929 --> 00:33:40,309
and education to me is one of them.

402
00:33:40,349 --> 00:33:43,709
So that drives my thinking about education in large part, right?

403
00:33:44,409 --> 00:33:51,349
Sometimes I'm thinking about, okay, given that everybody's going to ignore that and we're going to have something anyways, here are better and worse ways to do it.

404
00:33:51,989 --> 00:33:57,669
But to me, guns and education, I mean, guns and education.

405
00:33:57,929 --> 00:33:59,869
I've got a good title for the podcast anyway.

406
00:34:00,289 --> 00:34:01,869
That will get a few people watching.

407
00:34:02,269 --> 00:34:02,549
Yeah.

408
00:34:02,729 --> 00:34:03,669
Guns and education.

409
00:34:04,229 --> 00:34:06,169
So, like, what do you think?

410
00:34:06,269 --> 00:34:06,469
Go on.

411
00:34:06,589 --> 00:34:08,589
What is your answer to those?

412
00:34:08,589 --> 00:34:15,629
to those ones i like jeffersons i really if if i could just get rid of the government we have and

413
00:34:15,629 --> 00:34:20,089
say i'm going to take one sentence from the declaration of independence that men form

414
00:34:20,089 --> 00:34:24,869
governments to protect their rights and those governments derive their legitimate powers

415
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:31,029
from the consent of the people i would start with that and say if you take that sentence seriously

416
00:34:31,029 --> 00:34:36,729
it doesn't matter whether you have a congress or a dictator or whether you have a direct democracy

417
00:34:36,729 --> 00:34:41,349
or whatever, as long as you don't do anything that isn't directly protecting rights, and

418
00:34:41,349 --> 00:34:47,529
as long as you don't take away people's consent, I don't give a crap how you do the mechanics

419
00:34:47,529 --> 00:34:48,029
of it.

420
00:34:48,369 --> 00:34:52,889
On the other hand, if we say, oh, we have this very nice constitutional republic, blah, blah,

421
00:34:53,010 --> 00:34:53,169
blah.

422
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:58,189
But if the representatives in that republic don't acknowledge that there are any limits

423
00:34:58,189 --> 00:35:00,909
to what they do, then that's not an improvement over anything.

424
00:35:01,010 --> 00:35:02,329
It's not an improvement over a king.

425
00:35:02,409 --> 00:35:03,810
It's not an improvement over a dictator.

426
00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:11,990
the key idea is are there limits and what are those limits so that you know i'm just wondering

427
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:17,950
where the where the anarchists fit into this or or more to the point people have a real issue in

428
00:35:17,950 --> 00:35:22,429
the a lot of circles are revolving with the social contract and in a way you're kind of describing

429
00:35:22,429 --> 00:35:27,689
there is still a social contract are you saying that there's there's limits to how free you can be

430
00:35:27,689 --> 00:35:34,990
like actually naturally you know so so again i think nato is an instructive thing you don't have

431
00:35:34,990 --> 00:35:39,829
a country doesn't have to join nato right it could just say you know what screw you guys we're going

432
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:45,810
our own way on the other hand if suddenly they get invaded they can't go to nato and say hey

433
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:52,109
help us because you just told us you didn't need our help so in that sense and that's why like

434
00:35:52,109 --> 00:35:58,269
Bastiat very clearly just said, properly done, government is nothing more than organized

435
00:35:58,269 --> 00:35:58,889
self-defense.

436
00:35:59,429 --> 00:36:01,089
I have the right to defend myself.

437
00:36:01,450 --> 00:36:06,209
I will do a better job of defending myself if I can count on other people to help me.

438
00:36:06,889 --> 00:36:10,249
And to make that happen, they have to count on me to help them.

439
00:36:10,909 --> 00:36:14,169
And that is the extent of the social contract in that sense.

440
00:36:14,209 --> 00:36:15,849
It's just mutual self-defense.

441
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:18,149
And beyond that, I don't get to tell you what to think.

442
00:36:18,209 --> 00:36:19,369
I don't get to tell you what to say.

443
00:36:19,369 --> 00:36:22,569
I don't get to tell you what to eat or drink or smoke or inject.

444
00:36:22,729 --> 00:36:25,889
I don't get to tell you how you get sex.

445
00:36:26,029 --> 00:36:30,089
I don't get to tell you anything except if you get attacked, I'll help.

446
00:36:30,329 --> 00:36:31,470
If I get attacked, you'll help.

447
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:37,869
What makes me think, though, is that countries and governments are formed from individuals.

448
00:36:38,810 --> 00:36:47,049
And the problem is that when individuals are allowed to be individuals, they kind of group together in sort of little teams, don't they?

449
00:36:47,049 --> 00:36:48,970
And the government are the same.

450
00:36:49,369 --> 00:36:51,470
The government's going to have a team, isn't it?

451
00:36:51,549 --> 00:36:58,529
But I would actually, I wouldn't really accept that because I think people think of themselves in America.

452
00:36:58,529 --> 00:36:59,549
I think this is true.

453
00:36:59,549 --> 00:37:01,629
And this is one of the fundamental questions.

454
00:37:01,829 --> 00:37:08,749
Does society exist for the benefit of individuals or do individuals exist for the benefit of society?

455
00:37:08,929 --> 00:37:14,450
And if you go someplace like communist China and you look at their constitution, they are a constitutional republic too.

456
00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:20,950
it actually says right there it's like we're mostly interested in the harmony of the whole

457
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:25,329
and their philosophy is sort of like you're like a cell on a body and if we got to get rid of you

458
00:37:25,329 --> 00:37:31,109
because you're causing trouble well that's just too bad you have no rights in that sense right

459
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:38,009
you're you're not important the whole thing is important whereas in America you use things like

460
00:37:38,009 --> 00:37:45,649
national security and, you know, defense to try to make people think of themselves that way. But

461
00:37:45,649 --> 00:37:52,089
there's a great author named Richard Mitchell, who wrote a wonderful book called The Gift of Fire,

462
00:37:52,089 --> 00:37:57,749
and one of the chapters in it is called The Land of We All. And the whole chapter is about the

463
00:37:57,749 --> 00:38:03,389
trouble you get into when you misuse the word we. Like we say, hey, we went to the moon. It's like,

464
00:38:03,409 --> 00:38:07,729
you know what? I didn't. I had nothing to do with that. Or we gave up slavery. It's like,

465
00:38:08,009 --> 00:38:13,729
I never gave up slavery. I never even had the choice of giving up slavery, right? We did this,

466
00:38:13,850 --> 00:38:18,889
we will stand with Israel, we will do, you know, we will fight the, we will stand with Ukraine,

467
00:38:19,149 --> 00:38:25,689
we will, you know, eradicate whatever. That's just not a proper use of the word we unless

468
00:38:25,689 --> 00:38:33,569
you literally think of yourself as some smaller part of a larger organism. But if you think of

469
00:38:33,569 --> 00:38:37,950
yourself as an individual, then that's just an abuse of English.

470
00:38:38,629 --> 00:38:39,850
What about we the people then?

471
00:38:41,330 --> 00:38:48,830
It's a bad use of it. You can't have we the people decide to do something except if each

472
00:38:48,830 --> 00:38:53,069
of us needs to supply consent, then there is no we the people. There are some groups

473
00:38:53,069 --> 00:38:56,450
of people. And this is like my, I'm in the middle of writing something where it's like,

474
00:38:57,290 --> 00:39:02,629
I want, but the idea of something like a foreign policy, the more I think about it seems very

475
00:39:02,629 --> 00:39:06,429
strange to me, right? And if you go back to George Washington saying, look, we should just

476
00:39:06,429 --> 00:39:11,889
have commerce with everybody and not get entangled. And one of the ways to do that is we constantly

477
00:39:11,889 --> 00:39:19,589
think we, the people, America, have to have a tariff against Canada or against China, as opposed

478
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:24,790
to just saying, I'm a person, there's a person in France, there's a person in China, I would like to

479
00:39:26,429 --> 00:39:32,389
engage in commerce, I should be able to do it. Or if I think that Israel needs to defeat

480
00:39:32,389 --> 00:39:38,810
Hamas, I can go there, or I can send them money, or I can send them ammunition, or I can act as an

481
00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:44,369
individual, right? And so, the theme of the thing I'm writing, and I'm going to have hats made up,

482
00:39:44,369 --> 00:39:51,069
it's going to make America Americans again, right? Individuals who act as individuals and who can

483
00:39:51,069 --> 00:39:57,830
deal with individuals, as opposed to making up this fiction, you know? And so, what Mitchell would

484
00:39:57,830 --> 00:40:04,889
say is like you take a statement like, we, you know, we must support Ukraine. And it's like,

485
00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:09,229
okay, so first of all, let's actually think about what we say, what we mean by we, what we mean is

486
00:40:09,229 --> 00:40:13,989
some part of the American people, but we don't even mean that we actually mean

487
00:40:13,989 --> 00:40:21,609
some subset of a group of people who have been elected to represent the American people. And

488
00:40:21,609 --> 00:40:25,229
then you look at that, and they have been elected because they had certain views,

489
00:40:25,229 --> 00:40:28,749
but they disagree with the people who elected them on other views.

490
00:40:28,810 --> 00:40:31,409
And by the time you actually say what's going on,

491
00:40:31,810 --> 00:40:34,830
you basically say this group of people who have authority

492
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:37,889
without any real source of legitimate power

493
00:40:37,889 --> 00:40:41,569
are acting, using the resources of those other people

494
00:40:41,569 --> 00:40:43,509
to screw those people over.

495
00:40:44,089 --> 00:40:47,609
And when you look at it that way, it's like nobody wants to be part of that.

496
00:40:47,669 --> 00:40:51,049
Whereas we stand with Ukraine, that can make your belly purr

497
00:40:51,049 --> 00:40:54,609
and you feel good and you're like, yeah, I'm part of something important.

498
00:40:54,609 --> 00:40:59,569
Whereas if everybody just had to act as an individual, I think you would have very different outcomes.

499
00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:04,569
Isn't that collective, though, a function of the fact that government needs to pay for itself?

500
00:41:04,709 --> 00:41:24,879
And really if you track it back hard enough they need a collective Well what are you paying for That the thing If all you paying for is mutual self that not terribly expensive Yeah I know I saying on the way it runs at the moment you know like it a self disaster We in that sense is a marketing technique

501
00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:31,139
You say we, and then you feel either good or at the moment bad about it, right? And politics have

502
00:41:31,139 --> 00:41:35,679
become more and more divisive here so that people are starting to say, not my president,

503
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:40,719
not my country doing this. I am not a part of that, which I think is actually a good thing,

504
00:41:40,779 --> 00:41:44,959
because if I'm not a part of that, then what I am at. And you hope that they'll actually think

505
00:41:44,959 --> 00:41:50,759
about that and say, oh, I'm an individual. And oh, well, they're individuals too. So what if we all

506
00:41:50,759 --> 00:41:57,339
just interacted as individuals? Okay, that would be a very different thing. But you can't do that

507
00:41:57,339 --> 00:42:02,399
as long as you people think the purpose of government is to redistribute wealth, or to

508
00:42:02,399 --> 00:42:07,879
make people feel good or to prevent people from feeling bad or whatever however though individuals

509
00:42:07,879 --> 00:42:14,639
sooner or later realize that um they're more powerful in groups sure groups end up becoming

510
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:20,479
you know i mean my i don't know what your theory on the evolution of government is in in general but

511
00:42:20,479 --> 00:42:25,579
when i thought it through it's almost if you track it back far enough it's like

512
00:42:25,579 --> 00:42:31,299
you know some say we we were hunter gatherers we didn't really need a government at that point

513
00:42:31,299 --> 00:42:34,679
We became farmers.

514
00:42:35,779 --> 00:42:38,859
And then we had assets that needed protecting, basically.

515
00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:39,219
Right.

516
00:42:39,499 --> 00:42:41,559
And we've got a choice at that point.

517
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,819
We either protect them or we pay someone to protect them.

518
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,759
So someone comes in, I'll protect them.

519
00:42:47,919 --> 00:42:48,799
You go and do the work.

520
00:42:48,879 --> 00:42:49,839
I'll protect the assets.

521
00:42:50,359 --> 00:42:51,499
You pay me some of the assets.

522
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:52,039
We're all good.

523
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:54,719
And then that's when it starts at that point.

524
00:42:54,799 --> 00:42:56,159
And it will always evolve.

525
00:42:56,419 --> 00:42:58,959
And there is an organic growth that comes to that, right?

526
00:42:58,959 --> 00:43:05,599
And so some people get thought of as protectors and then their children become the leaders of the protectors and it grows in all different kinds of ways.

527
00:43:06,259 --> 00:43:18,179
But at a certain point, you also get enough consciousness as individuals and enough reasoning ability as individuals that you can evaluate things and maybe do things that are counterintuitive.

528
00:43:18,899 --> 00:43:22,919
So evolution sort of always does the next thing that seems obvious.

529
00:43:22,919 --> 00:43:28,219
and the point of reasoning, the point of learning to be a critical thinker, to use a term that you

530
00:43:28,219 --> 00:43:34,239
like, is to say, maybe I don't have to do the obvious thing. Maybe I could do the non-obvious

531
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:39,579
thing. And that's science, right? That's technology. Those are the things where we say,

532
00:43:40,139 --> 00:43:44,439
well, this will be the easy, obvious thing to do, but what if I just take that off the table

533
00:43:44,439 --> 00:43:48,759
and put it over there and I think of what are the other things I might do? And then you can

534
00:43:49,439 --> 00:43:59,459
Maybe find a way, if we're smart and lucky, you can find a way to head off what would be that normal splintering into tribes and incessant fighting.

535
00:43:59,839 --> 00:44:04,699
And you say, maybe if we agree to a few simple rules, we'll all leave each other alone.

536
00:44:04,799 --> 00:44:13,239
And the energy and effort and money and blood that we put into fighting, we could put into making things and growing things and writing things and creating art, right?

537
00:44:13,259 --> 00:44:15,199
That sounds like a utopia to me, though.

538
00:44:15,299 --> 00:44:18,319
Okay, but you're always aiming for something, right?

539
00:44:18,319 --> 00:44:21,139
A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for, right?

540
00:44:21,179 --> 00:44:24,319
You should always have something that you're going for, and in some sense, you can look

541
00:44:24,319 --> 00:44:26,839
at the Declaration of Independence as that.

542
00:44:26,919 --> 00:44:28,219
This is what we would like to have.

543
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:29,699
Will we be able to get it?

544
00:44:30,059 --> 00:44:31,219
Well, here's the Constitution.

545
00:44:31,399 --> 00:44:35,459
Yeah, we're apparently not going to get it yet, but maybe later we can, right?

546
00:44:35,539 --> 00:44:41,859
So, I don't think the fact that you can't do something immediately argues against it.

547
00:44:42,559 --> 00:44:43,339
It's hard.

548
00:44:43,339 --> 00:44:44,559
You know?

549
00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:57,559
But, okay, I say that the next evolutionary stage of what's going on in the American experiment is more of an individualization.

550
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:00,139
I mean, is that what it takes?

551
00:45:00,479 --> 00:45:06,279
Probably on the grand scale as well, secession of states, making them smaller.

552
00:45:06,279 --> 00:45:09,539
I mean, I think when I look at it, I see it as a function.

553
00:45:09,739 --> 00:45:14,299
The problems are much, much of the problems are a function of the size of this place.

554
00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:15,959
that you're trying to govern.

555
00:45:16,659 --> 00:45:17,979
And also, I mean, you think,

556
00:45:18,179 --> 00:45:19,779
especially when you think about it in terms of Europe,

557
00:45:21,019 --> 00:45:24,519
Europe's a similar idea in many ways now

558
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:25,959
because the European Union

559
00:45:25,959 --> 00:45:28,919
has got its own little power center here

560
00:45:28,919 --> 00:45:29,699
and blah, blah, blah.

561
00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:32,079
And it seems very absurd to me

562
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:34,519
when I think there's Romania over there

563
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:37,339
and there's the UK there when we were in the EU.

564
00:45:37,339 --> 00:45:39,539
And it's like, should they really be governed

565
00:45:39,539 --> 00:45:41,379
by the same border governors?

566
00:45:41,619 --> 00:45:43,839
And I think of the US as the same.

567
00:45:43,839 --> 00:45:53,279
I know you have more of a national identity, but, you know, people are very different here than the people I know in California, for example.

568
00:45:53,459 --> 00:45:55,799
And actually, it's a long way away.

569
00:45:56,039 --> 00:45:57,199
It's a really long way away.

570
00:45:57,499 --> 00:45:58,039
It is.

571
00:45:58,479 --> 00:46:04,339
I mean, my feeling about that is basically you are more willing to help the people that you actually know and like and trust.

572
00:46:04,499 --> 00:46:04,819
Okay.

573
00:46:04,899 --> 00:46:11,559
And so the farther you try to extend the reach, and I think this is maybe what you're getting at, I don't really care about a lot of people in California.

574
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:14,279
I certainly don't care about a lot of people in Africa or Belgium.

575
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:27,119
I know one family in Belgium that I care about, which sort of leads me to my next point, which is that up to a certain level in time, everything is geographically defined.

576
00:46:27,419 --> 00:46:31,419
And that's largely because of the difficulty of travel and communication, right?

577
00:46:31,739 --> 00:46:40,879
So you can't – you divide into states and you divide the states into counties and counties into cities because if you're going to make decisions, you can't all just pick up the phone and call.

578
00:46:40,879 --> 00:46:43,439
Well, now you can, actually, okay?

579
00:46:44,219 --> 00:46:46,559
And so, here's the thing.

580
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:51,499
So, you ever heard this phrase, ontology recapitulates phylogeny?

581
00:46:52,279 --> 00:46:52,539
No.

582
00:46:53,439 --> 00:46:55,119
I'd love to hear it explained that.

583
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:56,739
Ontology, what's that?

584
00:46:57,479 --> 00:46:57,919
Recapitulates.

585
00:46:58,939 --> 00:47:01,499
Ontology recapitulates phylogeny.

586
00:47:01,939 --> 00:47:04,119
Even if I think of that, I still don't know what it means.

587
00:47:04,359 --> 00:47:07,619
I love it because it's very dense and it packs a lot of things.

588
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,499
What does the third word even mean, though?

589
00:47:09,499 --> 00:47:20,259
It is the – so, what it says is your evolutionary growth, the stages you went through to become a human are reenacted during your growth as an embryo.

590
00:47:21,339 --> 00:47:27,919
So, at a certain point, you have gills, for example, when you're an embryo because somewhere in your evolutionary development, you had gills.

591
00:47:28,019 --> 00:47:29,699
You have a tail that then goes away.

592
00:47:29,699 --> 00:47:41,839
You have, so it's not true, but it's true enough, okay, that you can use it as a guiding principle, sort of as a way to, it's true enough that you can use it to think about.

593
00:47:41,919 --> 00:47:48,279
So I have another phrase similar to that, which I like, which is topology obviates geography.

594
00:47:48,279 --> 00:47:56,699
okay if i have people who can connect with anyone anywhere then the fact that they live next to each

595
00:47:56,699 --> 00:48:01,819
other becomes less and less important to the point of not being important at all okay so here's an

596
00:48:01,819 --> 00:48:07,299
example of this so like people in america will say well we have to have these elections we have to

597
00:48:07,299 --> 00:48:11,759
have these states and we have to you know have the electoral college and we need to get people

598
00:48:11,759 --> 00:48:16,959
into congress so we can get single-payer health european countries can do it so that's europe

599
00:48:16,959 --> 00:48:21,919
envy again, right? Well, England does this. And so, how many people are there in England?

600
00:48:22,839 --> 00:48:23,999
60-something million.

601
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:29,559
Right. There are more registered Democrats in America than there are in England. So,

602
00:48:29,659 --> 00:48:31,339
if registered Democrats- People in England, you mean.

603
00:48:31,339 --> 00:48:36,919
Then there are, sorry, yes, then there are people in England. So, if registered Democrats

604
00:48:36,919 --> 00:48:42,799
wanted to have a single-payer health system, they could have it tomorrow. And all they'd

605
00:48:42,799 --> 00:48:46,359
have to do is give up this whole idea that you have to do the same thing as the guy who

606
00:48:46,359 --> 00:48:52,799
lives next to you, right? You just, you give your bank account information to the Democratic Party,

607
00:48:52,799 --> 00:48:58,559
and you go to the doctor, and they send the bill to the Democratic Party, and you pay maybe $5,000

608
00:48:58,559 --> 00:49:03,979
a year to help everybody, and George Clooney pays $78 million, right? Warren Buffett, all these guys,

609
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:07,299
they're paying more, but that's your idea, right? That the more you have, the more you should pay.

610
00:49:08,139 --> 00:49:13,659
All you have to do is leave everybody else the hell out of it, and you can do that if you give

611
00:49:13,659 --> 00:49:20,299
up the idea that the way to do things is through geographically based politics. You connect with

612
00:49:20,299 --> 00:49:24,539
the people that you and you could do education that way, you could do healthcare that way,

613
00:49:24,959 --> 00:49:28,919
you could do all the all the things where the government redistributes money, you could do it

614
00:49:28,919 --> 00:49:36,499
that way, you do it directly, topologically in a network, rather than by fighting to bring people

615
00:49:36,499 --> 00:49:39,639
along with you who absolutely hate what you're trying to do.

616
00:49:39,639 --> 00:49:46,699
well arguably i mean that as a function of the internet that probably will transpire i mean

617
00:49:46,699 --> 00:49:54,699
versions of that already do there are new borders being sort of like you know written across the

618
00:49:54,699 --> 00:49:58,799
globe based on what's happening on the internet right i mean in our movement the free cities

619
00:49:58,799 --> 00:50:05,859
movement it's a very much there's two two ideas behind the evolution of it one is it's bottom up

620
00:50:05,859 --> 00:50:12,199
yeah and the other is it's top down that and the a lot of the times the bottom up stuff is uh online

621
00:50:12,199 --> 00:50:19,519
manifesting in real life and i'm i'm an anecdotal evidence of that i mean currently almost everyone

622
00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:24,399
i know on a day-to-day basis i know through the internet i don't know from my geographical reason

623
00:50:24,399 --> 00:50:30,819
place at all but um and the technology is already there to implement that idea i would have thought

624
00:50:30,819 --> 00:50:43,099
But I mean, let's think, why wouldn't it? I mean, obviously, the geographical government wouldn't like it to begin with, because it would put their nose out of shame.

625
00:50:43,099 --> 00:50:50,299
It could. And yet, like the Democratic Party should be thrilled about this. They can get what they want, right?

626
00:50:50,299 --> 00:50:55,179
At a certain point, you hope, and this is I'm trying to get people with these ideas.

627
00:50:55,339 --> 00:50:57,039
Thank you for spreading this virus.

628
00:50:57,619 --> 00:51:06,019
I'm trying to get people to get the idea that by letting go of something that no longer serves your purpose, you can get the thing you want, right?

629
00:51:06,099 --> 00:51:14,019
And the image I have in my mind is you're like trying to swim across a pond and somebody has a, you know, you're wearing a backpack full of rocks.

630
00:51:14,799 --> 00:51:18,639
If you just take the backpack off, you can swim.

631
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:20,399
You can go to where you want.

632
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:21,039
Do you know what, though?

633
00:51:21,439 --> 00:51:27,339
The Democrats, well, the modern day Democrats might be worried that no one would pay it.

634
00:51:27,799 --> 00:51:30,059
Well, and that would be interesting, wouldn't it?

635
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:31,819
And that would be a very, you know.

636
00:51:31,819 --> 00:51:44,019
But no, but we have a similar joke in the free cities movement, which is the idea of free cities are that you have a myriad of competing cities, for example.

637
00:51:44,019 --> 00:51:51,019
and the joke is that if you had a left-wing city everyone that would go there would be

638
00:51:51,019 --> 00:51:56,959
looking for a free handout and there'd be no one to give the handouts so so like you know the eye

639
00:51:56,959 --> 00:52:01,619
is a bit similar with this plan it's like maybe there wouldn't be a lot of democrats prepared to

640
00:52:01,619 --> 00:52:06,419
stump up the money because you know i don't know it is but the point i'm just making is it was that

641
00:52:06,419 --> 00:52:12,119
that the ideas evolve and the technology evolves right and so the technology actually in some sense

642
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:18,459
liberates you to try ideas that you couldn't have tried in 1600 or 1700 or 1900. Now we're free to

643
00:52:18,459 --> 00:52:23,299
try those things. And so in that sense, that actually allows you to scale back government

644
00:52:23,299 --> 00:52:29,099
in a system, in a sort of gradual way to say each of these functions, like any function where

645
00:52:29,099 --> 00:52:32,959
government's taken money from some people and given it to other people, you can do that

646
00:52:32,959 --> 00:52:38,219
with smaller groups than everyone. And they are still big groups. And that's the point of like,

647
00:52:38,219 --> 00:52:42,439
the democratic party is bigger than the population of several countries

648
00:52:42,439 --> 00:52:45,919
individual countries it's a really good idea actually it would

649
00:52:45,919 --> 00:52:50,059
it would it would show what the it would it would be a free market

650
00:52:50,059 --> 00:52:53,579
and it would actually show the truth of the human

651
00:52:53,579 --> 00:52:58,299
experience yeah really it would be really interesting right and not hard to

652
00:52:58,299 --> 00:53:01,439
implement at all you just this technology wouldn't be hard you just

653
00:53:01,439 --> 00:53:04,799
have to completely change everyone's mind on a lot of stuff exactly and

654
00:53:04,799 --> 00:53:18,679
Well, also, if you think about it, the physical monopoly, the mafia, let's call it what it is, they won't like this because they run the physical world based on geography, don't they?

655
00:53:19,039 --> 00:53:19,239
Yes.

656
00:53:20,319 --> 00:53:23,099
They'll basically lose a lot of money, presumably.

657
00:53:23,419 --> 00:53:25,939
Or they'll just find new ways to do things.

658
00:53:26,059 --> 00:53:31,179
I have a friend who jokes that the way that the government grows is they look at whatever the mob is doing.

659
00:53:31,319 --> 00:53:32,299
Oh, we're running numbers?

660
00:53:32,419 --> 00:53:33,379
Let's have the lottery.

661
00:53:33,379 --> 00:53:34,419
We're doing this?

662
00:53:34,419 --> 00:53:36,439
Oh, we're doing alcohol.

663
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:38,739
Let's sell alcohol in state stores, right?

664
00:53:38,819 --> 00:53:41,839
And so you look for the thing that they're doing next.

665
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:46,679
And you go, oh, well, we could just co-opt that and make it a state function.

666
00:53:46,739 --> 00:53:48,339
They'll own the platform that.

667
00:53:48,679 --> 00:53:49,879
And they'll take a cut probably.

668
00:53:50,439 --> 00:53:50,839
Sure.

669
00:53:51,039 --> 00:53:52,479
But you hit it on the head, right?

670
00:53:52,919 --> 00:53:58,039
You need to change the way people think about what government is, which is why I like those three questions.

671
00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:04,979
If your conception of government is that it's not about redistributing wealth, then okay, let's just cut that part out.

672
00:54:05,359 --> 00:54:06,939
And we'll do it some other way.

673
00:54:07,279 --> 00:54:14,259
And the beauty of it is, it's like I said, the Democratic Party, if they were serious about this, could have single-payer health next month.

674
00:54:15,579 --> 00:54:16,219
They could do it.

675
00:54:16,299 --> 00:54:17,379
The technology is there.

676
00:54:17,759 --> 00:54:19,599
This is not rocket science.

677
00:54:20,059 --> 00:54:21,679
This is not curing a disease.

678
00:54:22,399 --> 00:54:24,599
This is not like trying to figure out how do we get rid of malaria.

679
00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:29,139
This is just, we know how to move money from some people to other people and then to businesses.

680
00:54:30,139 --> 00:54:31,339
That's a known quantity.

681
00:54:31,779 --> 00:54:37,979
The only thing that's missing is the idea that maybe we don't have to force that on people who don't want it.

682
00:54:38,199 --> 00:54:39,719
Or fight to get other people.

683
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:40,679
Or fight to get it, yes.

684
00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:42,639
To get people to believe in it, basically.

685
00:54:42,819 --> 00:54:42,899
Yeah.

686
00:54:43,179 --> 00:54:45,779
So, you know, so those are the…

687
00:54:45,779 --> 00:54:46,679
I mean, yeah.

688
00:54:47,059 --> 00:54:48,899
Did you invent that idea or is that…

689
00:54:48,899 --> 00:54:50,379
As far as I know, I did, yeah.

690
00:54:50,739 --> 00:54:52,599
And I wrote two pieces on it.

691
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:59,959
The second one is about, there's a second component of this, which is sort of the moralistic component, that you want to punish vices and sins, right?

692
00:55:00,699 --> 00:55:03,159
And there, again, the technology has brought you along.

693
00:55:03,539 --> 00:55:10,619
It used to be, well, we pass a law and everybody in this geographical area can't, you know, buy alcohol or pay for sex or whatever.

694
00:55:10,739 --> 00:55:13,039
But it's like, well, or smoke pot.

695
00:55:13,139 --> 00:55:19,639
But it's like, okay, what if you could, and I got this idea from, I read about, there's, I think Pennsylvania does this.

696
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:24,499
If you live in Pennsylvania, you can put yourself on a list and you say, I don't want to gamble.

697
00:55:25,019 --> 00:55:29,179
And any casino that finds you in it can just throw you out and keep your money.

698
00:55:29,619 --> 00:55:33,639
So they're punishing you without making gambling illegal, right?

699
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:36,279
It's sort of a distributed punishment system.

700
00:55:36,379 --> 00:55:43,759
It's like, okay, if I think, if I'm very conservative and I think I shouldn't commit adultery and I shouldn't take drugs and I shouldn't do this and this and this,

701
00:55:44,099 --> 00:55:48,339
I can put on a body camera and I can have people monitoring me 24-7.

702
00:55:48,339 --> 00:55:54,319
and everybody else can do those things but i can't what about this though because there will be

703
00:55:54,319 --> 00:56:02,159
instances where say we have that system here you'll be you'll be you'll you'll you know you'll

704
00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:06,179
be accepting basically a different bunch of rules to your neighbor over there yes but what about when

705
00:56:06,179 --> 00:56:12,979
your i your different rules start encroaching on them say it was you can smoke pot here but they

706
00:56:12,979 --> 00:56:20,079
can't and the smell of smoke wafts into there so there are already things in place that the people

707
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:24,939
don't fight that much about which are externalities like i can't i can't open a factory

708
00:56:24,939 --> 00:56:29,139
next to my neighbor i can't play noise at all days and that there those are already dealt with

709
00:56:29,139 --> 00:56:33,999
but in most cases why should that prevent me from sitting in my house and watching a movie

710
00:56:33,999 --> 00:56:38,859
with some friends we're all smoking pot and eating cheetos and laughing who gives a crap

711
00:56:38,859 --> 00:56:45,639
So, you mean you would have, if everyone agreed on something, it would be universal.

712
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,399
And if they didn't, then it would be very specific.

713
00:56:49,939 --> 00:56:50,599
So, yeah, okay.

714
00:56:50,699 --> 00:56:55,199
I mean, I would just get rid of the first part and say everybody agrees to what they will be punished for.

715
00:56:55,659 --> 00:56:58,359
And if you're not on that list, then you don't get punished for it.

716
00:56:58,539 --> 00:57:00,399
But what about like criminal law and stuff?

717
00:57:00,859 --> 00:57:07,239
So, criminal law, that has more to do with, so this gets into government by consent.

718
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,499
because people you say well i'd like to have government by consent people like what would

719
00:57:10,499 --> 00:57:16,359
that look like and here's how it looks like to me everybody sits down and you make a list and the

720
00:57:16,359 --> 00:57:22,999
looks like this i don't want anyone else to do x to me i don't want them to kill me i don't want

721
00:57:22,999 --> 00:57:31,619
them to rape me assault me destroy my property steal my property uh pollute my land right and

722
00:57:31,619 --> 00:57:37,539
the funny thing is you do this with groups and you run out of things after like 15 things. You're

723
00:57:37,539 --> 00:57:41,899
just like, okay, that's about it. If nobody does those things to me, I'm pretty happy.

724
00:57:42,899 --> 00:57:45,919
And so that is government by consent. You essentially are just saying,

725
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:51,419
I don't want anybody to do these to me. So if I do them to somebody else, I consent to be punished.

726
00:57:52,439 --> 00:57:57,379
And that's it. And anything that doesn't fit on that framework, like I don't think those two

727
00:57:57,379 --> 00:58:01,539
people should be able to trade money for sex. Well, screw you. That's not part of government

728
00:58:01,539 --> 00:58:07,119
by consent. Your consent is not needed there, right? Or these people should have to give money

729
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:12,759
to this or not have to give money or educate these kids or do whatever. You've got all the things

730
00:58:12,759 --> 00:58:17,359
that you're worried about, right? Well, what if somebody steals from me? What if somebody breaks

731
00:58:17,359 --> 00:58:21,819
into my house? What if somebody assaults me? Those are all taken care of through a consent mechanism.

732
00:58:22,359 --> 00:58:26,799
And what you're then doing is layering something on top of that to say, but some people want to be

733
00:58:26,799 --> 00:58:30,839
punished for things that don't fit in that framework, great, they could hire people to do it.

734
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:35,239
The Republican Party could set up a thing where they have AI monitoring body cams,

735
00:58:35,359 --> 00:58:39,779
and if they catch you in a hotel room with somebody who's not your wife, they punish you.

736
00:58:39,779 --> 00:58:44,259
If they catch you snorting cocaine or injecting a drug or gambling or whatever,

737
00:58:44,459 --> 00:58:47,279
they punish you, but they leave everybody else the hell alone.

738
00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:52,839
It's like a digitization of the golden rule, basically, isn't it?

739
00:58:52,839 --> 00:58:56,659
It is, yeah. And so that's one of the things when I think about libertarianism,

740
00:58:56,659 --> 00:59:00,659
And one of my formulations of it is the Hillel version of the golden rule, right?

741
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:05,939
Which I like better than the standard one, which is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

742
00:59:05,979 --> 00:59:09,339
Because that opens things like, well, I would like people to give me free dental care.

743
00:59:09,979 --> 00:59:10,799
It's like, okay.

744
00:59:11,439 --> 00:59:15,059
Hillel's version is what's hateful to you, don't do to anybody else.

745
00:59:17,399 --> 00:59:19,139
Hateful is a contentious word though, isn't it?

746
00:59:19,839 --> 00:59:21,079
And this is what I would say.

747
00:59:21,159 --> 00:59:23,839
What you don't want people to do to you, don't do to them.

748
00:59:23,839 --> 00:59:26,159
But it's a completely negative formulation.

749
00:59:26,159 --> 00:59:30,179
It doesn't allow for anybody forcing anybody to do anything.

750
00:59:30,299 --> 00:59:31,979
It's just these are things I don't want to do.

751
00:59:32,359 --> 00:59:33,919
I don't want them done to me.

752
00:59:34,639 --> 00:59:36,179
Therefore, I won't do them to other people.

753
00:59:36,339 --> 00:59:37,059
It's really interesting.

754
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:39,439
So I like that model.

755
00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:44,719
You write down everything that you don't want people to do to you,

756
00:59:44,759 --> 00:59:47,439
and that forms the basis of governance.

757
00:59:47,619 --> 00:59:47,819
Yeah.

758
00:59:48,499 --> 00:59:50,299
And it's, yeah.

759
00:59:50,659 --> 00:59:52,179
And anything else is like that's up to you.

760
00:59:52,179 --> 00:59:53,759
Did you say you've written that and put it in a book?

761
00:59:53,759 --> 01:00:06,359
I, those two things, those are in Granite Rock, and I can give you the, they will be in a book called The Proper Use of Political Parties, because you have these giant political parties that could do all this stuff and not drag anybody else along.

762
01:00:06,359 --> 01:00:15,099
Instead of fighting over temporary control so we can steer the bus this way and then they steer it back the other way, you know, oh, now I'm in office.

763
01:00:15,259 --> 01:00:16,459
I will repeal.

764
01:00:16,659 --> 01:00:17,899
I mean, I don't know if you saw this.

765
01:00:17,979 --> 01:00:18,979
Trump is signing things.

766
01:00:19,319 --> 01:00:23,199
I'm repealing Joe Biden's repeal of my previous order.

767
01:00:23,379 --> 01:00:25,879
And it's just like, this is such a…

768
01:00:25,879 --> 01:00:27,079
Well, it's better than in a lot of countries.

769
01:00:27,199 --> 01:00:29,419
They just kill the people that could.

770
01:00:30,059 --> 01:00:30,199
Yeah.

771
01:00:30,459 --> 01:00:32,959
And so, yes, it's all being done on paper and that's good.

772
01:00:32,959 --> 01:00:49,719
But the idea is that, yeah, you have these political parties that are just trying to get these small majorities and eke this out so I can have two years of control and try to shove things through against people who hate it and are using every parliamentary and legal procedure to get in my way.

773
01:00:50,059 --> 01:00:53,139
They're the bag of rocks on my back swimming across the pond.

774
01:00:53,419 --> 01:00:54,739
What if I just let go of them?

775
01:00:55,299 --> 01:00:55,939
Just boop.

776
01:00:56,899 --> 01:00:59,039
That sinks to the bottom and I swim on.

777
01:00:59,039 --> 01:01:04,939
now i see why you were going on about the individual though because what it takes for that

778
01:01:04,939 --> 01:01:13,119
to become a reality is to completely switch your perspective on governance you absolutely do has to

779
01:01:13,119 --> 01:01:21,099
reside totally in you yes but it but it's a really good idea because and i can't even imagine it in

780
01:01:21,099 --> 01:01:26,839
real life but i just know it's a good idea it's like because um the technology is really simple you

781
01:01:26,839 --> 01:01:31,399
I mean, to digitize that is a piece of piss, as we would say.

782
01:01:31,499 --> 01:01:35,139
It's like, you know, here are 20 questions, probably,

783
01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:36,899
or whatever you think that you might be.

784
01:01:37,339 --> 01:01:40,859
And now an algorithm just pairs all those up together.

785
01:01:40,859 --> 01:01:42,259
And every time you interact with someone,

786
01:01:42,759 --> 01:01:58,148
the only problem is that you have to monitor it And then someone knows all that information which makes me feel a little bit unsettled so these are technical questions but i photography could sort actually cryptography could could actually sort that and it solves like the counterfeiting problem right

787
01:01:58,148 --> 01:02:04,088
maybe maybe i get a badge and it just says i have not signed up for any vice or sin control well if

788
01:02:04,088 --> 01:02:09,968
i really did but i temporarily want to do something bad i could put that badge on if it's just a badge

789
01:02:09,968 --> 01:02:14,048
i mean anybody can have badges made i have badges that were made you know they they're the same

790
01:02:14,048 --> 01:02:30,268
But the blockchain, right? Gosh, if only we had a technology that you couldn't fake. Oh, we have one. So again, the technology actually makes – I did a thing called the age of consent, which is not what you think.

791
01:02:30,948 --> 01:02:37,508
But it has to do with through history, you always have to get somebody's consent to act, right?

792
01:02:37,608 --> 01:02:40,388
And for a while, it's like you have to get the consent of the king.

793
01:02:40,988 --> 01:02:46,548
And then you have to get consent of the legislature or in Canada, you have to get essentially the consent of your neighbors.

794
01:02:47,248 --> 01:02:51,628
And at a certain point, you would like to move towards you just need your own consent.

795
01:02:51,628 --> 01:02:55,908
And the technology at each age has enabled the change, right?

796
01:02:55,908 --> 01:03:00,508
So when the king has the army, that's how it works.

797
01:03:00,628 --> 01:03:05,068
But suddenly you get to America and the people have more guns than the king.

798
01:03:05,748 --> 01:03:08,288
Now they can have a different kind of consent, right?

799
01:03:08,308 --> 01:03:08,568
Do you know what?

800
01:03:08,988 --> 01:03:13,788
That, your idea should become a computer game first.

801
01:03:14,308 --> 01:03:17,668
It would be so easy to do that, like a Sims type game.

802
01:03:18,688 --> 01:03:20,968
But it would be interesting because I would like to see it modeled.

803
01:03:21,148 --> 01:03:23,048
I would like to see what would happen.

804
01:03:23,048 --> 01:03:26,568
Because at the moment, I'm trying to grasp it in its entirety.

805
01:03:26,748 --> 01:03:30,428
And that's quite difficult because who knows how humans will interact.

806
01:03:30,568 --> 01:03:32,548
Like human action is a creep.

807
01:03:32,988 --> 01:03:38,488
But I want to see what happens when people adopt that.

808
01:03:38,568 --> 01:03:41,848
It's like extreme ownership of themselves.

809
01:03:42,508 --> 01:03:42,728
It is.

810
01:03:43,368 --> 01:03:45,528
Extreme responsibility for yourself too.

811
01:03:45,528 --> 01:03:45,728
Yeah, it is.

812
01:03:46,228 --> 01:03:48,348
But which is kind of anarchism, right?

813
01:03:49,028 --> 01:03:49,948
I mean, really?

814
01:03:50,228 --> 01:03:50,788
It is.

815
01:03:50,788 --> 01:04:02,308
And the only thing that keeps it from being anarchism and that, again, is Jefferson's conception of government or Bastiat's conception of government is you recruit some people to help you with your anarchism.

816
01:04:02,468 --> 01:04:07,508
I want to do what I want to do, but sometimes what I want to do requires me to go away for three days.

817
01:04:07,568 --> 01:04:09,428
And when I come back, I want my shit to be here.

818
01:04:09,768 --> 01:04:09,948
Right.

819
01:04:10,088 --> 01:04:14,348
So I recruit, we recruit each other for what you might call it.

820
01:04:14,468 --> 01:04:16,808
And so I guess I tend to call it minarchism.

821
01:04:16,808 --> 01:04:23,088
like what's the smallest thing you need to to actually do the things that you do need

822
01:04:23,088 --> 01:04:29,048
which is self-defense extended in your self-defense should exist in your absence for

823
01:04:29,048 --> 01:04:39,288
some period of time in that in your model who um who implements the rules like say i am someone who

824
01:04:39,288 --> 01:04:46,628
doesn't want to ever rob from someone and then someone robs from me or i rob from someone so

825
01:04:46,628 --> 01:04:49,628
Right. What happens to me? Who does it?

826
01:04:49,628 --> 01:05:07,388
So this is the same way that you have police forces now, except they do a lot less. So that is, in fact, you do create institutions to carry this out. Right. And if you look at, say, the Bill of Rights, I mean, you have things like, okay, I have a right not to be searched, but it's not an absolute right.

827
01:05:07,388 --> 01:05:21,988
Because in order to protect my other rights, I say, look, if you've got enough evidence that I did something wrong and you can convince a judge to search and you know what you're looking for, you don't just get to search everywhere and take everything.

828
01:05:22,128 --> 01:05:25,308
You know there's a specific thing, there's a murder weapon or something.

829
01:05:26,248 --> 01:05:28,028
Then I consent to that.

830
01:05:28,028 --> 01:05:52,508
I say, look, because if somebody steals from me or hurts me, I want you to have that power to find the evidence so that we can prosecute, so we don't have feuds. Great, so I consent to that. And that's what something like the Fourth Amendment actually is doing. It's placing a limit on your absolute right to privacy. It's like, well, in order to protect my right to privacy in a much bigger sphere, I will give it up in a much smaller sphere, right?

831
01:05:52,508 --> 01:05:54,568
And so that's the same thing that would happen.

832
01:05:54,648 --> 01:05:56,408
All these ideas have been sitting around.

833
01:05:57,408 --> 01:06:02,108
What's missing is sort of the, there's always this idea, well, we need government to do all this stuff.

834
01:06:02,148 --> 01:06:03,108
And I'm saying you don't.

835
01:06:03,428 --> 01:06:09,548
You don't need government to enforce, to punish people for sins and vices that don't involve anybody else.

836
01:06:09,668 --> 01:06:12,208
You don't need government to redistribute money.

837
01:06:13,148 --> 01:06:17,648
And if you take those things away, what's left is very, very small.

838
01:06:17,648 --> 01:06:26,848
The dystopian version of that as well is that you don't even often really need any of that. I mean, the social credit score system is exactly that.

839
01:06:26,848 --> 01:06:31,268
exactly and you could i was just trying to go through my mind whether you could implement a

840
01:06:31,268 --> 01:06:38,668
social credit system in this model without it becoming dystopian because really it would be

841
01:06:38,668 --> 01:06:44,428
it would work it would actually work but you would still need some things to be adjudicated in real

842
01:06:44,428 --> 01:06:50,848
life but because you would have something would have to say that that actually happened yes you

843
01:06:50,848 --> 01:06:57,648
actually did steal from that person or you did you know yes but really the the the the you know

844
01:06:57,648 --> 01:07:03,428
can't believe i'm advocating for social credit scores but i don't think i am i don't think i am

845
01:07:03,428 --> 01:07:08,888
i'm just like thinking about how the technology could work right because it's a good idea it's a

846
01:07:08,888 --> 01:07:13,828
really good idea it's like it's the kind of thing i imagine in a thousand years time when we're all

847
01:07:13,828 --> 01:07:19,648
flying around in in anti-gravity technology that's probably how we might live actually yeah you know

848
01:07:19,648 --> 01:07:23,548
I wouldn't be surprised if there are advanced alien civilizations living like that already.

849
01:07:24,068 --> 01:07:25,128
Yeah, there could be.

850
01:07:25,248 --> 01:07:30,528
And that would be sort of what it would mean to be advanced is they don't have to keep a chain around each other's neck all the time.

851
01:07:30,608 --> 01:07:30,768
Yeah.

852
01:07:30,968 --> 01:07:36,388
Well, it's a much more efficient way of working because you don't have to convince anyone of your ideas.

853
01:07:37,428 --> 01:07:38,828
And you don't have.

854
01:07:39,048 --> 01:07:41,988
And yeah, and it's location unspecific.

855
01:07:42,448 --> 01:07:43,148
So it's.

856
01:07:43,348 --> 01:07:43,588
Right.

857
01:07:43,588 --> 01:07:48,708
If you and I want to pay each other's medical bills, I don't care where you are.

858
01:07:48,708 --> 01:07:56,848
it just doesn't matter but like it would defund it would defund the the the there it would i mean

859
01:07:56,848 --> 01:08:02,868
it's like a trojan horse to sort out what is the right way to live your life because really it would

860
01:08:02,868 --> 01:08:08,128
show the true colors of of right of people except i would think of it as more like a

861
01:08:08,128 --> 01:08:13,608
a trojan horse where it starts inside the city and you load in all the crap you don't want and

862
01:08:13,608 --> 01:08:18,508
you shove it out the gates right you're not bringing anything in no the idea is the trojan

863
01:08:18,508 --> 01:08:22,988
horse yeah no but i think you know the idea is the trojan horse it's like do you want a fairer

864
01:08:22,988 --> 01:08:29,728
system yeah of course well you know and the democrats love fairness right okay right so you

865
01:08:29,728 --> 01:08:34,028
do all the stuff you want to do and we do all the stuff we want to do cool and then suddenly you

866
01:08:34,028 --> 01:08:39,768
realize no one's going to do that their stuff because actually it costs them a lot more yeah

867
01:08:39,768 --> 01:08:42,468
And there are lots of people over there trying to get their stuff.

868
01:08:43,628 --> 01:08:49,228
And then you have to admit to yourself like, yeah, this was a bad idea and I needed to steal from people to fund it.

869
01:08:49,288 --> 01:08:53,328
Whereas if it was a good idea, people would be joining the Democratic Party in droves.

870
01:08:53,788 --> 01:08:54,548
Oh, my God.

871
01:08:54,588 --> 01:08:55,768
They'll pay for my medical care?

872
01:08:56,108 --> 01:08:56,728
Sign me up.

873
01:08:56,828 --> 01:08:57,608
I want to be a Democrat.

874
01:08:57,748 --> 01:09:00,668
They'll pay for my kid's school and his football and his trombone lessons.

875
01:09:00,848 --> 01:09:01,568
Sign me up.

876
01:09:01,968 --> 01:09:02,768
And then you'll see.

877
01:09:02,908 --> 01:09:05,808
And then you'll watch like the people going, oh, my God.

878
01:09:05,888 --> 01:09:07,528
Wait, I paid how much?

879
01:09:07,528 --> 01:09:13,608
this is too and then you see but it's now contained in sort of an experimental lab and you watch that

880
01:09:13,608 --> 01:09:17,488
and maybe at the end of it you end up with something that's really cool and then other

881
01:09:17,488 --> 01:09:24,588
people go well we'd like that too with some you know modifications and then you get sort of the

882
01:09:24,588 --> 01:09:29,868
equivalent of federalism except it's topological federalism rather than geographical federalism

883
01:09:29,868 --> 01:09:34,688
you don't it doesn't depend on where you live you know there are certain things that do depend on

884
01:09:34,688 --> 01:09:41,948
where you live like pollution you know i mean that is actually a local thing so yes you you need to

885
01:09:41,948 --> 01:09:48,788
where you live isn't completely irrelevant but more and more the things that people turn to

886
01:09:48,788 --> 01:09:55,408
government to do it is irrelevant because mainly what they want is somebody else to pay for my shit

887
01:09:55,408 --> 01:10:03,588
you know yes the solution to democracy isn't it maybe that maybe maybe maybe it is a next i mean

888
01:10:03,588 --> 01:10:09,228
And democracy is, I know at the moment, it's untouchable, isn't it?

889
01:10:09,248 --> 01:10:12,488
It's the thing you can't, it's the pinnacle of governance.

890
01:10:12,868 --> 01:10:16,368
And if you say anything bad against democracy, you're a heretic.

891
01:10:16,368 --> 01:10:17,848
But it's the word.

892
01:10:18,248 --> 01:10:27,868
So, you know, and this is the thing, like one of my favorite, maybe my favorite saying ever comes from Confucius, who said the first step towards wisdom is to call things by the right names.

893
01:10:28,328 --> 01:10:31,068
And what we call democracy is not democracy.

894
01:10:31,068 --> 01:10:34,368
And what we want when we say we want democracy is not democracy.

895
01:10:34,508 --> 01:10:38,008
We should say what we want and use the right words.

896
01:10:38,328 --> 01:10:41,068
Well, what would you call democracy then?

897
01:10:41,628 --> 01:10:50,668
Well, I don't even think you can start at that level because it's power from the people, but which people?

898
01:10:50,828 --> 01:10:53,848
And is it power over other people or power over yourself?

899
01:10:53,968 --> 01:10:56,288
Right. Nobody's even had this discussion.

900
01:10:56,408 --> 01:10:57,768
They just say. So it's funny.

901
01:10:57,768 --> 01:10:59,888
We have these bonus granddaughters.

902
01:10:59,888 --> 01:11:05,308
right they're not our kids they're neil and emily's kids but we're basically their grandparents

903
01:11:05,308 --> 01:11:11,368
it's it's great so we're bonus grandparents and they will do things like i gave a talk at you know

904
01:11:11,368 --> 01:11:16,508
this club the quill which you may have been at and it was it was called fuck fairness right and i just

905
01:11:16,508 --> 01:11:20,888
went through like what do we mean by fair and it turns out we don't mean anything by fair all fair

906
01:11:20,888 --> 01:11:25,748
is is a trigger it's just if i say you're being unfair you're supposed to feel bad and that's all

907
01:11:25,748 --> 01:11:30,488
it means. So, what's funny is one of the granddaughters heard this and she was probably

908
01:11:30,488 --> 01:11:36,768
like five. And now every time since then that I use the word fair, she's like, fair isn't even a

909
01:11:36,768 --> 01:11:43,248
word. It's great. You know, she got it. She was five years old and she got it. It's like, right,

910
01:11:43,408 --> 01:11:48,688
that every, you come up with different models of fairness and they're all incompatible and there's

911
01:11:48,688 --> 01:11:54,508
nothing that they all have in common. You only use the word fair when you want somebody to feel bad.

912
01:11:54,508 --> 01:12:01,968
that is it that is the point of fair you know so i'm just trying to get there must be examples

913
01:12:01,968 --> 01:12:09,928
like i i think i'm quite a fair father on my kids and for example i would say when when they're any

914
01:12:09,928 --> 01:12:13,648
of my kids i've got three of them when it whenever they're arguing about something and they will

915
01:12:13,648 --> 01:12:18,388
eventually come to me if they can't and i will say that the fair thing to do is to hear everyone's

916
01:12:18,388 --> 01:12:24,868
argument so so it's okay but then when you go to make the decision how do you make a fair decision

917
01:12:24,868 --> 01:12:30,868
well great you say whatever you want there's normally a right decision right i don't know

918
01:12:30,868 --> 01:12:35,468
that that's the case there's a right decision for each of those kids yes but there's normally in

919
01:12:35,468 --> 01:12:39,308
their case and then there's normally one decision for you there's normally one where when everyone

920
01:12:39,308 --> 01:12:46,248
thinks about it it makes i don't know that that's the case i mean i think that that is that may

921
01:12:46,248 --> 01:12:53,048
sometimes be the case, and those are the fond ones that you remember. But the ones where nobody's

922
01:12:53,048 --> 01:12:57,688
happy, and maybe that's one definition of fairness. Nobody's happy. One definition of fairness is

923
01:12:57,688 --> 01:13:02,388
everybody's happy. In terms of education, I have a book about this where people think fairness means

924
01:13:02,388 --> 01:13:06,248
we spend the same amount on every kid. And other people would say, I would say,

925
01:13:06,568 --> 01:13:10,708
fairness is when every kid learns the same thing. And those are just not even close,

926
01:13:11,308 --> 01:13:15,048
right? And if you pursue one model, you basically tank the other one.

927
01:13:15,048 --> 01:13:21,468
Well, aren't we just trying to distill our philosophy down to the building blocks of it?

928
01:13:21,648 --> 01:13:28,548
And, you know, it becomes many times when I've done this, I end up with either collectivism or individualism.

929
01:13:29,208 --> 01:13:30,708
That's one of the places I end up.

930
01:13:30,728 --> 01:13:32,048
It's not definitely the right one.

931
01:13:32,148 --> 01:13:36,588
There are other ways to sort of subdivide ideas, I think.

932
01:13:37,028 --> 01:13:38,868
But that is definitely one of them.

933
01:13:38,888 --> 01:13:42,528
And the problem is they're just these words like democracy, like rights.

934
01:13:42,528 --> 01:13:47,028
nobody has any idea what it means that i have a right well i have a right to be left alone that's

935
01:13:47,028 --> 01:13:51,988
like as brandyves would say that is the source of all other rights but i have a right to free wi-fi

936
01:13:51,988 --> 01:13:56,908
i have a right to safe spaces i have a right to not ever hear anything that i disagree with and

937
01:13:56,908 --> 01:14:03,028
it's just the word the word no longer means anything right and so i think fairness is like

938
01:14:03,028 --> 01:14:07,768
that people have used fairness and they have used it as a way to beat each other over the head

939
01:14:07,768 --> 01:14:11,448
I grab this word fairness and democracy is like that.

940
01:14:11,508 --> 01:14:12,428
Oh, you need democracy.

941
01:14:12,568 --> 01:14:13,788
It's like, what do we mean by that?

942
01:14:14,408 --> 01:14:14,888
Exactly.

943
01:14:15,168 --> 01:14:16,108
We have no idea.

944
01:14:16,448 --> 01:14:21,448
What do you think the real way to use fairness is then?

945
01:14:21,728 --> 01:14:23,008
I don't think there is one.

946
01:14:23,088 --> 01:14:24,408
I think we're past that.

947
01:14:25,388 --> 01:14:27,468
I would just use different words.

948
01:14:27,568 --> 01:14:31,068
I would talk about equitable distribution of something rather than fair.

949
01:14:31,388 --> 01:14:33,868
I would say even distribution or preferred distribution.

950
01:14:33,868 --> 01:14:38,048
or i mean i would always say the first thing before you can say something's fair it's like

951
01:14:38,048 --> 01:14:42,048
what's your goal what are you trying to accomplish right because it might be all you're trying to

952
01:14:42,048 --> 01:14:47,648
accomplish is peace and quiet in which case fairness isn't even an issue right well it's

953
01:14:47,648 --> 01:14:54,468
half and half is it two people but you've got three daughters and two parents i mean that's

954
01:14:54,468 --> 01:15:00,988
a good example is often it's like they got more than me and i i wouldn't go straight to 50 50 i

955
01:15:00,988 --> 01:15:02,328
I would start with ownership.

956
01:15:02,588 --> 01:15:04,128
I would say, well, who's were they?

957
01:15:04,528 --> 01:15:07,548
And who's put the most time and effort into maintaining those things?

958
01:15:07,748 --> 01:15:09,168
Did they buy them with their own money?

959
01:15:09,388 --> 01:15:12,088
But also, how is this going to affect what happens in the future?

960
01:15:12,208 --> 01:15:15,148
How does it make up for what may have happened in the past?

961
01:15:15,148 --> 01:15:26,068
So without the context of those things, what's fair in a relationship where we're going to meet one time and do something and we'll never see each other again is very different than we're going to see each other every day for the next 30 years.

962
01:15:27,028 --> 01:15:29,628
It just, it's not a useful word.

963
01:15:30,028 --> 01:15:33,048
That's all I'm saying is in almost any context,

964
01:15:33,048 --> 01:15:37,108
there are so many ways to understand it that you can both be saying,

965
01:15:37,228 --> 01:15:40,448
I'm being fair and you both mean that you're being fair,

966
01:15:40,528 --> 01:15:42,208
but you're not having the same discussion.

967
01:15:42,708 --> 01:15:45,028
I look forward to having some more discussions.

968
01:15:45,428 --> 01:15:50,148
My kids are normally, they're happy and content kids.

969
01:15:50,468 --> 01:15:56,608
And I think I've thought that part of that reason is because whenever we do

970
01:15:56,608 --> 01:16:05,848
discuss things we we we want to find a consensus on anything like critically analyze something and

971
01:16:05,848 --> 01:16:11,448
go well you know some people think this some people think that um you know here's the pros

972
01:16:11,448 --> 01:16:17,408
and cons of this idea and that one and what do we think right and and consensus is a great word

973
01:16:17,408 --> 01:16:23,328
yes consensus is a fine thing and we understand what we mean by consensus but it's not necessarily

974
01:16:23,328 --> 01:16:28,828
the same thing as fairness. You're teaching them a process by which you can resolve disputes,

975
01:16:28,988 --> 01:16:34,448
which takes into account the fact that different people want different things at different times

976
01:16:34,448 --> 01:16:39,028
for different reasons, right? So, yeah, I'm like Confucius. I'm saying, great,

977
01:16:39,128 --> 01:16:43,108
use the word consensus. My claim here, and it'd be funny for you to test it,

978
01:16:43,468 --> 01:16:47,028
is you could go the rest of your life and never use the word fair and you wouldn't lose anything.

979
01:16:48,248 --> 01:16:52,868
You could just, we could hypnotize you and say, you know what, from now on the word fair doesn't

980
01:16:52,868 --> 01:17:00,448
almost the only time i ever use it is in the context of my kids and um i don't think i use

981
01:17:00,448 --> 01:17:05,908
it to make them feel bad put it that way maybe i am but i'm missing something but i tend for me

982
01:17:05,908 --> 01:17:17,248
fairness is a function of of um what we just said what was the word um consensus consensus so that

983
01:17:17,248 --> 01:17:25,428
would be that they would be almost the same word in all the the examples that i use we can we have

984
01:17:25,428 --> 01:17:30,868
there is a consensus that this is the right way to do things therefore that's fair because everyone

985
01:17:30,868 --> 01:17:37,088
can said yeah okay that that makes sense you know like sure but then you look at extreme examples

986
01:17:37,088 --> 01:17:43,008
the mob comes to you and says you're going to give us 10 of everything you make and you say okay we've

987
01:17:43,008 --> 01:17:47,668
reached a consensus was it no i no but i might not be giving there might not be a convinced okay

988
01:17:47,668 --> 01:17:51,768
and they'll say here's the thing if you don't agree we'll kill you yeah it still won't be a

989
01:17:51,768 --> 01:17:57,348
consensus i'll be forced to do it it will but your reasons will not be about fairness you will still

990
01:17:57,348 --> 01:18:01,268
go okay you're forcing me to do it and i'll do it because i value all these other things like

991
01:18:01,268 --> 01:18:07,968
staying alive and raising my family and doing the job that i like but we we have a meeting of the

992
01:18:07,968 --> 01:18:12,828
minds i'm not happy it's not fair fairness has nothing to do with it but it's a consensus right

993
01:18:12,828 --> 01:18:18,308
And I have my own reasons and they have their own reasons and they have force that they can bring to bear and I don't.

994
01:18:18,588 --> 01:18:22,428
Whereas if I have thousands of friends, then we could just shoot all them and then we're fine, right?

995
01:18:22,568 --> 01:18:24,868
I thought a consensus was an agreement, though.

996
01:18:25,148 --> 01:18:25,688
It is an agreement.

997
01:18:25,688 --> 01:18:28,148
Am I agreeing, really, with the mob?

998
01:18:28,348 --> 01:18:29,388
I'm under duress.

999
01:18:29,508 --> 01:18:31,068
It's like signing a contract, right?

1000
01:18:31,168 --> 01:18:35,608
I mean, you have agreed on the terms of the contract, whether you like them or not.

1001
01:18:35,968 --> 01:18:36,768
Yeah, but did you?

1002
01:18:36,868 --> 01:18:39,628
Like, I could sign a contract without agreeing with it.

1003
01:18:39,628 --> 01:18:40,388
Like, I could.

1004
01:18:40,808 --> 01:18:41,288
And you could.

1005
01:18:41,288 --> 01:18:44,608
and you have achieved consensus with the other people involved in the contract,

1006
01:18:44,748 --> 01:18:47,228
but it's not fair and you don't approve of it and you don't like it,

1007
01:18:47,608 --> 01:18:50,408
consensus just means you agreed to stop talking.

1008
01:18:51,248 --> 01:18:52,068
That's what it means.

1009
01:18:52,788 --> 01:18:53,028
Okay?

1010
01:18:53,188 --> 01:18:59,268
So if I'm in a Quaker meeting, right, and they only do things by consensus,

1011
01:18:59,388 --> 01:19:01,708
if anybody's complaining, we're not done talking yet.

1012
01:19:02,068 --> 01:19:05,748
All consensus eventually means is we're done talking.

1013
01:19:05,988 --> 01:19:06,968
We're done talking.

1014
01:19:07,408 --> 01:19:08,308
I'm not happy.

1015
01:19:08,308 --> 01:19:10,608
Maybe that's where I am with my kids as well,

1016
01:19:10,608 --> 01:19:11,488
and they bring me problems.

1017
01:19:11,488 --> 01:19:11,968
It's like,

1018
01:19:12,088 --> 01:19:14,568
it's a function of staying quiet.

1019
01:19:14,868 --> 01:19:15,148
But no,

1020
01:19:15,208 --> 01:19:15,668
I enjoy,

1021
01:19:15,788 --> 01:19:18,128
I enjoy the critical thought process

1022
01:19:18,128 --> 01:19:19,908
and I love watching my kids

1023
01:19:19,908 --> 01:19:21,608
learn about it

1024
01:19:21,608 --> 01:19:22,088
because it's,

1025
01:19:22,268 --> 01:19:23,328
I don't think a lot of,

1026
01:19:23,428 --> 01:19:24,488
they don't teach it at school,

1027
01:19:24,628 --> 01:19:25,108
put it that way.

1028
01:19:25,188 --> 01:19:25,268
No,

1029
01:19:25,548 --> 01:19:25,768
because,

1030
01:19:25,888 --> 01:19:26,668
because why would they?

1031
01:19:26,848 --> 01:19:28,188
They will never give you the education

1032
01:19:28,188 --> 01:19:29,308
you need to overthrow them.

1033
01:19:29,368 --> 01:19:30,008
I would have thought

1034
01:19:30,008 --> 01:19:30,948
if I was a teacher,

1035
01:19:31,048 --> 01:19:31,888
I'd be teaching that.

1036
01:19:31,968 --> 01:19:32,228
In fact,

1037
01:19:32,548 --> 01:19:32,868
actually,

1038
01:19:32,968 --> 01:19:33,988
that's not strictly true.

1039
01:19:34,108 --> 01:19:34,268
My,

1040
01:19:34,268 --> 01:19:34,948
my daughter,

1041
01:19:35,188 --> 01:19:36,568
my youngest that go,

1042
01:19:36,648 --> 01:19:38,128
still go to what we would call

1043
01:19:38,128 --> 01:19:38,928
primary school

1044
01:19:38,928 --> 01:19:45,548
up to the age of 10 they have excellent teeth one particular teacher there who's brilliant i really

1045
01:19:45,548 --> 01:19:52,408
love him and he does teach them things like that he does point out the two sides of an argument and

1046
01:19:52,408 --> 01:19:59,348
he does or the three or the four or the five yes correct but it's mostly the two obvious ones you

1047
01:19:59,348 --> 01:20:05,968
know but um yeah right and so every once in a while yes you get great teachers who are fantastic

1048
01:20:05,968 --> 01:20:12,228
human beings and who are very thoughtful and whatever but as an institution that's not going

1049
01:20:12,228 --> 01:20:17,548
to be encouraged by the people who are running it from the top because it actually works against

1050
01:20:17,548 --> 01:20:23,708
them so and it's not even you know it sounds like that's a conspiracy theory but it doesn't require

1051
01:20:23,708 --> 01:20:30,048
a an actual conspiracy it just requires people sort of acting in their own best interests rather

1052
01:20:30,048 --> 01:20:34,208
than in the interest the stated interest of the institution do they make that connection though

1053
01:20:34,208 --> 01:20:48,528
You don't have to. That's the beauty of it. You're just acting in self-interest and the institution and the government, the funds it, have set up the incentives in the wrong direction. Right? So, if I'm, say, you've read Catch-22, right?

1054
01:20:48,528 --> 01:20:49,548
I haven't read it.

1055
01:20:49,768 --> 01:20:51,088
Oh, fantastic book.

1056
01:20:52,348 --> 01:21:05,848
There's this great part in there where you have these army officers, and they're basically trying to steal each other's officers because like, well, if I get another colonel, then I get two captains and four lieutenants, blah, blah, blah.

1057
01:21:06,008 --> 01:21:09,488
And they're not really interested in fighting the war.

1058
01:21:09,588 --> 01:21:13,328
They're interested in having the largest command, right?

1059
01:21:13,488 --> 01:21:15,528
The incentives go in the wrong way there.

1060
01:21:15,528 --> 01:21:20,368
It's just, and this is, Thomas Sowell will often say, look, people don't respond to goals.

1061
01:21:20,628 --> 01:21:23,768
You can set up goals, but people respond to incentives.

1062
01:21:24,648 --> 01:21:29,068
And if an incentive is, if I do more of this, I get more of something I want, then I'm going

1063
01:21:29,068 --> 01:21:29,908
to do that thing.

1064
01:21:30,328 --> 01:21:36,768
I have no interest if I am running a school system where I get paid for the kid being

1065
01:21:36,768 --> 01:21:39,728
there, I have no interest in getting him out faster.

1066
01:21:40,128 --> 01:21:43,968
If I could get this kid to learn everything he needs to know about age 12, that hurts

1067
01:21:43,968 --> 01:21:51,348
me because that's like five, six years of money that I don't get for him. So my incentive is to

1068
01:21:51,348 --> 01:21:56,368
string him along, right? And to teach classes where I don't really care if any of the kids are

1069
01:21:56,368 --> 01:22:00,128
getting it. Maybe there's three kids in the middle of the bell hook curve are getting and five of them

1070
01:22:00,128 --> 01:22:05,148
are bored and eight of them are just like, what the hell's going on? But that has nothing to do

1071
01:22:05,148 --> 01:22:10,648
with my incentive, which is to get paid for providing instruction, whether anybody learns

1072
01:22:10,648 --> 01:22:17,468
anything or not. So this is, you know, just paying attention to incentives is incredibly important.

1073
01:22:20,288 --> 01:22:26,528
Bad segue, but you've written 16 books.

1074
01:22:26,678 --> 01:22:33,318
and I wrote down a few of the titles because there's some love brilliant interesting unusual

1075
01:22:33,318 --> 01:22:38,898
titles um I'm just going to read one two three how many have I written down there six of them

1076
01:22:38,898 --> 01:22:45,638
okay tell me I think it looks like no five pick one and tell me what the hell it is because I

1077
01:22:45,638 --> 01:22:52,518
couldn't work out just from the title okay uh losing the religion of liberty political conversion

1078
01:22:52,518 --> 01:22:57,038
in three jokes have we done that conversation we talked about that one conversation yeah political

1079
01:22:57,038 --> 01:23:02,278
conversation in three jokes we talked about that one three boxes a cure for government overreach

1080
01:23:02,278 --> 01:23:07,238
okay right that's not the same thing as the first one is it three no they're not three boxes you

1081
01:23:07,238 --> 01:23:11,918
have so that talks about the cartridge box the jury box the ballot box barefoot learning what

1082
01:23:11,918 --> 01:23:17,158
shoes can teach us about schools that one sounds really interesting what barefoot learning what

1083
01:23:17,158 --> 01:23:21,658
shoes can teach us about schools okay so very briefly i was having a problem with my feet

1084
01:23:21,658 --> 01:23:27,078
and I was looking into, I was buying all different kinds of shoes and stuff and, you know, trying to fix this problem.

1085
01:23:27,338 --> 01:23:33,258
And I finally came across these people who talked about going barefoot, barefoot shoes, you know, the soles.

1086
01:23:33,738 --> 01:23:36,498
And I tried this and it cleared everything up.

1087
01:23:36,758 --> 01:23:36,998
Okay.

1088
01:23:37,318 --> 01:23:38,858
And so I started thinking about this.

1089
01:23:38,998 --> 01:23:39,318
It's like.

1090
01:23:39,738 --> 01:23:40,218
No, sorry.

1091
01:23:40,538 --> 01:23:42,798
You wear shoes, but they're the shape of your feet.

1092
01:23:42,798 --> 01:23:46,058
I wear shoes, but like these are a boxy toe.

1093
01:23:46,198 --> 01:23:50,678
So my toe isn't being pushed over and the soles are like nothing.

1094
01:23:50,678 --> 01:23:54,078
So this is protecting me from sharp objects, and that's about it.

1095
01:23:54,698 --> 01:23:57,138
Okay, and my boots are like that, the muck-lucks I have.

1096
01:23:57,278 --> 01:24:03,418
And so I try not to have anything under my feet except to protect me from getting cut.

1097
01:24:04,958 --> 01:24:12,198
So the idea is you start looking at this thing, and you find, so what these people were explaining is your foot is designed to work a certain way.

1098
01:24:12,538 --> 01:24:15,818
And by design, I mean designed by evolution, not teleologically.

1099
01:24:15,818 --> 01:24:22,458
But your foot is supposed to do a certain thing, and it turns out that the way people shape shoes prevents it from doing that.

1100
01:24:23,278 --> 01:24:27,218
And so you start adding things, arch supports, pronation, supination.

1101
01:24:27,418 --> 01:24:28,378
You do this, you do that.

1102
01:24:28,478 --> 01:24:29,518
Here's different materials.

1103
01:24:29,618 --> 01:24:30,858
We'll put air in them, whatever.

1104
01:24:31,278 --> 01:24:37,158
And none of those fix the problem, which is basically you've prevented your foot from being a foot.

1105
01:24:38,158 --> 01:24:41,878
And so I was reading this, and I was like, holy crap, this reminds me of something.

1106
01:24:41,958 --> 01:24:42,358
What is it?

1107
01:24:42,398 --> 01:24:44,138
And it occurred to me, schools.

1108
01:24:44,558 --> 01:24:45,658
Schools are like this.

1109
01:24:45,818 --> 01:25:07,298
Okay? In that to make your feet work properly, you need to let a foot be a foot and do what a foot is, which is something comes down, you actually, the arch compresses and then releases the energy in a certain way. And that's how it's supposed to work. And if you don't do that, no matter what else you do, your feet are going to have problems unless you're lucky.

1110
01:25:07,298 --> 01:25:14,258
so in schools it's like so you start and you go you start there with what's the function of a foot

1111
01:25:14,258 --> 01:25:18,878
the function of a foot is to absorb this energy of your body coming down and then re-release it

1112
01:25:18,878 --> 01:25:27,558
what's the function of a kid a child the function of a child is to imitate adults using who are

1113
01:25:27,558 --> 01:25:34,598
doing interesting and important things that's what kids do and everything about school prevents them

1114
01:25:34,598 --> 01:25:40,058
from doing it okay you are not with interesting people who are doing anything that matters

1115
01:25:40,058 --> 01:25:48,218
right and so they do not get to be kids so that was what you can learn about schools from shoes

1116
01:25:48,218 --> 01:25:51,778
and so it's just you do all these things you put all this technology and you put all these

1117
01:25:51,778 --> 01:25:56,838
pedagogical things in and it's just like adding all this stuff to shoes but if you don't address

1118
01:25:56,838 --> 01:26:05,178
the problem it doesn't work but you have to be in consensus that the the point of a child is to

1119
01:26:05,178 --> 01:26:09,598
mimic adults though you would yes if you don't believe that then this book will not be useful

1120
01:26:09,598 --> 01:26:14,878
i've never thought of it like that if you if you would have said what's the point of a child i'd

1121
01:26:14,878 --> 01:26:19,138
just say to well to grow up to be a productive member of the point okay so the point is a bad

1122
01:26:19,138 --> 01:26:23,118
word right that's like michael faraday saying what's the point of a newborn baby it's to grow

1123
01:26:23,118 --> 01:26:26,158
But what does a child do?

1124
01:26:26,478 --> 01:26:32,598
What, in the most raw, basic, fundamental terms, children are imitation machines?

1125
01:26:32,998 --> 01:26:33,398
Apprentices.

1126
01:26:33,578 --> 01:26:34,418
They're apprentices.

1127
01:26:34,418 --> 01:26:35,258
Apprentices, right.

1128
01:26:35,658 --> 01:26:39,098
And I mean, I was just so weirded out because, like I said, we never had kids.

1129
01:26:39,138 --> 01:26:39,898
We have these grandkids.

1130
01:26:39,958 --> 01:26:41,458
And suddenly, like, you're sweeping the floor.

1131
01:26:41,538 --> 01:26:43,118
Like, can I help you sweep the floor?

1132
01:26:43,238 --> 01:26:47,158
And you're like, you know, 10 years from now, you're going to be like, get lost.

1133
01:26:47,598 --> 01:26:49,038
But they're just, you're doing something.

1134
01:26:49,318 --> 01:26:51,518
You're doing it because it needs to be done.

1135
01:26:51,518 --> 01:26:54,698
It's not a fake thing that you're doing to waste time.

1136
01:26:54,798 --> 01:26:55,738
And it's like, can I help?

1137
01:26:56,038 --> 01:26:56,798
Can I do this?

1138
01:26:56,898 --> 01:26:59,098
Oh, can I pour the flour into the bread?

1139
01:26:59,458 --> 01:27:01,578
Can I help you, you know, clean this thing?

1140
01:27:01,658 --> 01:27:03,098
Can I help you move this stuff?

1141
01:27:03,158 --> 01:27:04,498
Oh, you're moving leaves from here to there?

1142
01:27:04,558 --> 01:27:05,618
Let me help, right?

1143
01:27:06,238 --> 01:27:07,198
This is what they're doing.

1144
01:27:07,278 --> 01:27:08,078
They watch you do it.

1145
01:27:08,278 --> 01:27:08,898
They do it.

1146
01:27:08,938 --> 01:27:09,818
And this is how they learn.

1147
01:27:09,978 --> 01:27:11,378
You talk, they talk.

1148
01:27:11,638 --> 01:27:14,358
You read, they're like, well, reading is kind of interesting.

1149
01:27:14,478 --> 01:27:15,478
I want to do that.

1150
01:27:15,598 --> 01:27:17,678
And they learn to do the things that you do.

1151
01:27:17,678 --> 01:27:24,078
they imitate adults who are doing useful and important stuff and if kids do that then they

1152
01:27:24,078 --> 01:27:31,838
work properly as kids and if they don't then they don't right and so you can add all this other

1153
01:27:31,838 --> 01:27:36,638
stuff but as long as you don't address that central issue if you are preventing them from

1154
01:27:36,638 --> 01:27:40,658
being kids then it doesn't matter too much what else you do so that's what that book's about what

1155
01:27:40,658 --> 01:27:46,378
What were the things that moving to more natural shoes, what did that solve?

1156
01:27:46,878 --> 01:27:48,038
My feet stopped hurting.

1157
01:27:48,498 --> 01:27:50,058
I was, I had, what's it?

1158
01:27:50,138 --> 01:27:52,038
I can't even remember the name of it now.

1159
01:27:52,118 --> 01:27:52,778
It's been so long.

1160
01:27:53,078 --> 01:27:56,558
But I had this thing, like I would get out of bed in the morning and I couldn't, huh?

1161
01:27:57,098 --> 01:27:58,058
Plantar fasciitis.

1162
01:27:58,518 --> 01:28:03,598
I couldn't walk for 15 minutes because everything was so tightened up.

1163
01:28:03,718 --> 01:28:06,538
And I would try, yeah, and I would try things to sleep in.

1164
01:28:06,638 --> 01:28:09,058
It would pull my, you know, be stretching this or stretching that.

1165
01:28:09,058 --> 01:28:10,698
I'd put things in my shoes.

1166
01:28:10,798 --> 01:28:12,018
I'd put things around my feet.

1167
01:28:12,198 --> 01:28:12,778
I would, you know.

1168
01:28:13,138 --> 01:28:16,498
And I was at the point where I was like, okay, I'm just going to get orthopedic shoes.

1169
01:28:16,618 --> 01:28:16,918
I'm looking.

1170
01:28:17,078 --> 01:28:18,278
It's like, those are going to be $500.

1171
01:28:18,278 --> 01:28:19,658
What are orthopedic shoes?

1172
01:28:19,998 --> 01:28:26,058
They actually, you send them a mold of your feet, and they make something that exactly fits your foot.

1173
01:28:26,978 --> 01:28:29,558
And is that counterintuitive then, really?

1174
01:28:29,838 --> 01:28:35,958
Well, it's intuitive to do it because you think, oh, then my foot will make perfect contact all the time.

1175
01:28:35,958 --> 01:28:45,738
And what's counterintuitive is that's not going to help because your shoe is still screwed up at the front and you're not able to release the energy from your big toe.

1176
01:28:46,018 --> 01:28:46,438
Right.

1177
01:28:46,738 --> 01:28:55,958
Your big toe is made in a certain configuration so that you get all this energy and you release it and you release it by using the front of your foot in a certain way.

1178
01:28:56,078 --> 01:29:00,678
And if you can't do that because your feet look like your shoes look like this instead of like that.

1179
01:29:00,678 --> 01:29:08,158
it's reminding me actually uh in my former life as a film director we made a film in um

1180
01:29:08,158 --> 01:29:14,238
russia about it was like six or seven years ago with the nenet people do you know who the nenets

1181
01:29:14,238 --> 01:29:21,658
are they're like a nomadic um they live in tp well they live in chums they're called okay it's

1182
01:29:21,658 --> 01:29:27,858
yamal peninsula that's it it's like one of the super cold it was minus in centigrade minus 45

1183
01:29:27,858 --> 01:29:34,678
when we were there and they they're nomadic but they actually i took i went out there with my

1184
01:29:34,678 --> 01:29:42,238
baffin minus 50 boots you know like and before you know like i had a zero suit all in one everything

1185
01:29:42,238 --> 01:29:50,378
you know and it was brutal my colleague got a crossbin um at one point but they used um still

1186
01:29:50,378 --> 01:29:57,458
use reindeer skins for almost everything including their boots right which i ended up trying because

1187
01:29:57,458 --> 01:30:02,718
the the you know the kind of baffin boots i mean they're these canadian boots they're supposed to

1188
01:30:02,718 --> 01:30:08,978
last and down to minus 50 but they don't your feet get bloody cold well what the ninets all they did

1189
01:30:08,978 --> 01:30:15,678
right was they had these kind of like thigh length big they were like socks basically and they were

1190
01:30:15,678 --> 01:30:23,658
made from um fur out reindeer fur reindeer skins on one side a bit of not much but a bit of like

1191
01:30:23,658 --> 01:30:30,718
hay inside as in dried grass and then on the inside the fur in so two layers okay and no socks

1192
01:30:30,718 --> 01:30:35,778
nothing so you walk around on the snow and it would feel like it would actually feel like you're

1193
01:30:35,778 --> 01:30:41,698
walking on the snow because yeah you know there was nothing to cushion your but they were way

1194
01:30:41,698 --> 01:30:46,078
well i ended up wearing them the whole of the trip in the end because they were so much warmer

1195
01:30:46,078 --> 01:30:51,758
and now i'm thinking about what you're saying it's like they probably also were better for me

1196
01:30:51,758 --> 01:30:57,818
because I was actually walking along the ground and my foot was doing.

1197
01:30:57,958 --> 01:30:58,138
Yes.

1198
01:30:58,278 --> 01:31:00,438
It was a weird sensation to begin with.

1199
01:31:00,798 --> 01:31:02,038
You ever walked on snow in bed?

1200
01:31:02,078 --> 01:31:03,018
It's like walking on snow in bed.

1201
01:31:03,018 --> 01:31:03,898
I haven't done that yet.

1202
01:31:03,938 --> 01:31:05,018
I'll go out and try it later.

1203
01:31:05,498 --> 01:31:07,418
Well, you need to find something that you can, you know,

1204
01:31:07,478 --> 01:31:08,538
you need to put something waterproof.

1205
01:31:08,938 --> 01:31:13,138
But also they're just warm because there's actually air in there.

1206
01:31:13,178 --> 01:31:16,878
The trouble with those boots is they put all that felt and stuff in there

1207
01:31:16,878 --> 01:31:19,218
but they don't leave any gaps for the air.

1208
01:31:19,218 --> 01:31:21,498
But they're also preventing your foot from moving.

1209
01:31:21,758 --> 01:31:26,918
they're like i'm gonna pack stuff under the foot and around the foot and here it's like and so first

1210
01:31:26,918 --> 01:31:32,978
of all all what that's doing is sending the shock instead of being absorbed by your arch is going to

1211
01:31:32,978 --> 01:31:37,638
your ankles and if you stiffen your ankles it goes to your knees and so you get knee problems and

1212
01:31:37,638 --> 01:31:42,598
ankle problems you know um but also it's preventing them from moving which means you're getting less

1213
01:31:42,598 --> 01:31:48,138
blood flow which means you know the muscles aren't exercising so yes it's actually so the ones you

1214
01:31:48,138 --> 01:31:54,298
use now they're just very thin sold and flat and that's it yeah yeah i mean it's it's a boot it's a

1215
01:31:54,298 --> 01:31:59,798
the yeah this thing is just literally it's just some deer skin it's i mean like moccasins yeah

1216
01:31:59,798 --> 01:32:05,578
it's got some sheepskin in but after like two weeks that's just mashed down into nothing and

1217
01:32:05,578 --> 01:32:11,598
the you know the the sole is so if i'm walking across rocks i feel the rocks yeah you know if

1218
01:32:11,598 --> 01:32:16,338
i'm if i'm walking on something i feel that thing which is actually at first it's it's a little weird

1219
01:32:16,338 --> 01:32:21,578
but you know about the grounding movement as well i've heard of it yeah you can imagine what it is

1220
01:32:21,578 --> 01:32:40,193
but yeah there are i was funny enough i don know why yesterday on i was on the internet and one of those popped up a guy had a volt meter and he was showing that when he stood on the ground with you know i don know whether it true or not but but but that a thing now grounding yeah sure yes maybe you doing that as well

1221
01:32:40,193 --> 01:32:46,154
i i could be i do have a soul in between me and the ground so is it made of is it it's rubber oh

1222
01:32:46,154 --> 01:32:52,274
okay so it's not leather so i'm not no i would try leather ones the the main thing is i walk on a

1223
01:32:52,274 --> 01:32:55,693
lot of rocks and in the woods a lot and so if i have leather it's going to rip and i'm gonna have

1224
01:32:55,693 --> 01:33:00,993
to replace it a lot how much land have you got here by the way uh we have down at the farm there

1225
01:33:00,993 --> 01:33:05,833
is around 200 acres and up here there's around 50 and do you spend a lot of time out in the woods

1226
01:33:05,833 --> 01:33:10,393
and stuff um not so much in the winter because i don't ski but in the summer i go out and cut wood

1227
01:33:10,393 --> 01:33:17,654
for us and our friends and so i'm out in the woods all the time i'm jealous i'd love i i would i once

1228
01:33:17,654 --> 01:33:22,053
when i was younger i bought when i used to live in london i when i first earned some money that

1229
01:33:22,053 --> 01:33:29,774
you know i bought uh 15 acres of woodland which unfortunately i sold because i used the money to

1230
01:33:29,774 --> 01:33:35,414
buy a house in the end but for a good five or six years i used to go there every weekend

1231
01:33:35,414 --> 01:33:42,633
and just camp on my own land and just do all kinds whatever just various forest skills or

1232
01:33:42,633 --> 01:33:50,073
whatever you know it's super um nourishing for a guy especially then interestingly my middle

1233
01:33:50,073 --> 01:33:53,953
daughter loves doing that stuff as well yeah she's got one with all the knives and stuff

1234
01:33:53,953 --> 01:34:02,633
she yeah she's always out in the garden or we've got land now so um making fires and doing stuff

1235
01:34:02,633 --> 01:34:09,473
she's picked that's cool yeah but yeah it's a nourishing way of life i you know i'm we just

1236
01:34:09,473 --> 01:34:15,154
don't have the land where i live like you've got a lot of land here yeah and it's one of the reasons

1237
01:34:15,154 --> 01:34:19,093
that you were asking Jody about, you know, moving to New Hampshire.

1238
01:34:19,233 --> 01:34:21,353
Part of it was because there's still land here.

1239
01:34:21,753 --> 01:34:23,473
You know, if I go to...

1240
01:34:23,473 --> 01:34:25,673
And is most of your 250 acres wooded?

1241
01:34:25,733 --> 01:34:26,173
It is.

1242
01:34:26,313 --> 01:34:29,154
We just have a little bit clear to live in the rest of the small woods.

1243
01:34:29,154 --> 01:34:30,353
So you eat this whole house with wood, I take it.

1244
01:34:30,353 --> 01:34:31,173
Yes, we do.

1245
01:34:31,333 --> 01:34:34,733
Yeah, that's what I do all summer is cut trees down and I stack them.

1246
01:34:34,733 --> 01:34:37,233
You can see our woodshed back there.

1247
01:34:37,293 --> 01:34:38,633
So we have about three years worth of wood.

1248
01:34:38,793 --> 01:34:40,633
Another hugely satisfying thing.

1249
01:34:40,793 --> 01:34:41,073
It is.

1250
01:34:41,073 --> 01:34:42,113
I do that as well.

1251
01:34:42,113 --> 01:34:46,113
We just felled six old trees.

1252
01:34:46,714 --> 01:34:49,733
Unfortunately, they're pines, so they don't burn really hot.

1253
01:34:50,313 --> 01:34:53,914
But I haven't even got through a third of them yet.

1254
01:34:54,393 --> 01:34:57,393
And we've got wood for days.

1255
01:34:58,093 --> 01:35:00,154
It's going to last us so long.

1256
01:35:00,193 --> 01:35:01,433
I don't even know how long it's going to last.

1257
01:35:01,433 --> 01:35:04,673
Well, I mean, we have a fire in the winter just constantly.

1258
01:35:05,173 --> 01:35:08,193
And so we go through about three cords, I would say.

1259
01:35:08,214 --> 01:35:09,274
Does it run all night then?

1260
01:35:09,274 --> 01:35:15,274
um it there will be coals in the morning and so we have to get it going again and we could get up

1261
01:35:15,274 --> 01:35:19,333
in the night and you know like set an alarm and get up at three o'clock and put it in but we're

1262
01:35:19,333 --> 01:35:24,873
just too lazy yeah we don't need to do so yeah you only have to put up with 10 or 15 minutes of

1263
01:35:24,873 --> 01:35:29,753
yeah we get up it's like 50 degrees in the house and so you make coffee and you make a fire and is

1264
01:35:29,753 --> 01:35:36,673
it really insulated in here no no no no no this this was originally a hunting cabin the part we're

1265
01:35:36,673 --> 01:35:44,113
sitting ending right here was a hunting cabin. It had terrible insulation. At one point, we made

1266
01:35:44,113 --> 01:35:49,753
this into an office, and it turns out there was insulation in here, which was keeping...

1267
01:35:50,774 --> 01:35:56,034
But really, no, this is not a house that we would build from scratch. So, in that sense,

1268
01:35:56,073 --> 01:36:00,493
it's very much like an education system, right? You could say, well, we can tinker with this,

1269
01:36:00,534 --> 01:36:04,573
and we could tinker with this, but really what you want to do is just start over and say,

1270
01:36:04,573 --> 01:36:10,353
what's the house we would want the house and we know what house we would want if we could do it

1271
01:36:10,353 --> 01:36:14,714
but it's just it's too much money and it's too much trouble so we're just put another layer of

1272
01:36:14,714 --> 01:36:21,113
in what we call kingspan you know that stuff that insulation yeah i mean i'm about to do that

1273
01:36:21,113 --> 01:36:27,953
i think to an outbuilding we've got at home which is just makes your rooms a little bit smaller on

1274
01:36:27,953 --> 01:36:32,333
the inside that's all it does yeah i mean and we could do it and we could do things with the windows

1275
01:36:32,333 --> 01:36:35,373
and we're probably going to put insulation under the floor

1276
01:36:35,373 --> 01:36:37,953
because this is up on pilings.

1277
01:36:38,253 --> 01:36:40,293
So there's, you know, like two feet under there.

1278
01:36:40,393 --> 01:36:41,393
So that gets cold.

1279
01:36:42,493 --> 01:36:45,154
You know, that floor down there is actually on cement.

1280
01:36:45,274 --> 01:36:46,213
So that gets cold.

1281
01:36:47,693 --> 01:36:49,953
But if it ain't broke, don't fix it sometimes.

1282
01:36:50,174 --> 01:36:50,493
Right.

1283
01:36:50,753 --> 01:36:52,414
Yeah, so we'll do what we can.

1284
01:36:52,513 --> 01:36:55,473
You know, I would love sometimes to just get a bunch of Amish people up here,

1285
01:36:55,573 --> 01:36:59,093
lift the house up and turn it 90 degrees because the sun's over there.

1286
01:36:59,093 --> 01:37:07,654
and so all the windows are over here you know um so yeah it's just the house is facing the wrong way

1287
01:37:07,654 --> 01:37:14,513
but it's you know it's it's like just the place we live is so wonderful have you ever thought about

1288
01:37:14,513 --> 01:37:20,013
taking your excess energy and turning into heat and any i know it's not a very efficient way to

1289
01:37:20,013 --> 01:37:25,733
things but it could if you because you've got excess energy right we do and it means we can

1290
01:37:25,733 --> 01:37:29,953
run like we have a heater now in one of the bathrooms and it's electric and we can do that

1291
01:37:29,953 --> 01:37:33,953
during the day and it wouldn't even run the batteries down that much i mean we're looking

1292
01:37:33,953 --> 01:37:40,674
more for things like to get a big chest freezer and run that we want to replace um our gas water

1293
01:37:40,674 --> 01:37:46,333
heater with electric because then that's free you know as long as we have the system um we haven't

1294
01:37:46,333 --> 01:37:51,674
thought too much about using it for heat somehow that just seems extravagant well yeah it is but

1295
01:37:51,674 --> 01:37:58,633
And if it's excess heat, presumably some days they switch off and they stop topping the batteries up, right?

1296
01:37:58,654 --> 01:37:59,193
Yeah, they do.

1297
01:37:59,453 --> 01:38:02,774
And yes, on a day like today, they were done by like 11 a.m.

1298
01:38:02,893 --> 01:38:04,573
So the rest of the day we could.

1299
01:38:04,593 --> 01:38:05,433
She gets Bitcoin miners up here.

1300
01:38:06,613 --> 01:38:07,433
Well, why not?

1301
01:38:07,593 --> 01:38:09,353
It's not that much electricity.

1302
01:38:10,233 --> 01:38:16,853
What we would probably do at some point is we'll get an electric car because we'll be able to charge it and top that off.

1303
01:38:16,853 --> 01:38:22,633
So we are always looking for, okay, what else could we do with electricity that we now do with propane?

1304
01:38:22,933 --> 01:38:27,713
Because propane is really our only connection to the world, the grid.

1305
01:38:28,213 --> 01:38:31,493
They have to come up here twice a year and fill up a couple of tanks.

1306
01:38:31,674 --> 01:38:33,553
But we're using less and less all the time.

1307
01:38:33,553 --> 01:38:35,034
You could even buy those.

1308
01:38:35,774 --> 01:38:38,513
We used to have propane at our last house.

1309
01:38:39,313 --> 01:38:42,113
But we used to buy or borrow.

1310
01:38:42,294 --> 01:38:44,893
We used to pay for these big canisters that were only this big.

1311
01:38:44,893 --> 01:38:45,213
Yeah.

1312
01:38:45,373 --> 01:38:48,593
But we only used it for cooking.

1313
01:38:49,053 --> 01:38:53,133
And we did have an on-demand heater, actually, that used to work.

1314
01:38:53,373 --> 01:38:54,674
But we didn't really get through much.

1315
01:38:54,713 --> 01:38:56,654
We used to get through two big ones of those a year.

1316
01:38:56,833 --> 01:38:58,553
Yeah, we have one of those.

1317
01:38:58,693 --> 01:39:00,693
They're just hard to move around.

1318
01:39:01,013 --> 01:39:06,053
But we have a heater in that room that we just run when it's really, really cold most of the time.

1319
01:39:06,093 --> 01:39:06,633
We ignore it.

1320
01:39:07,154 --> 01:39:10,753
We use propane for the water heater and for our stove and oven.

1321
01:39:10,873 --> 01:39:11,473
And that's it.

1322
01:39:12,174 --> 01:39:14,073
So it's not very much.

1323
01:39:14,073 --> 01:39:17,253
and we could probably go for two years

1324
01:39:17,253 --> 01:39:19,534
and not get a fill-up and still be okay.

1325
01:39:19,654 --> 01:39:23,713
But it is still sort of one more connection

1326
01:39:23,713 --> 01:39:26,693
where, oh, we're going to raise the price of propane by a factor of 10.

1327
01:39:26,873 --> 01:39:27,853
And then you're like...

1328
01:39:27,853 --> 01:39:32,253
If you get an electric car, that's a whole new world of pain.

1329
01:39:32,473 --> 01:39:32,814
Is it?

1330
01:39:33,054 --> 01:39:35,274
I think it is because...

1331
01:39:35,274 --> 01:39:37,154
Can you fix an electric car?

1332
01:39:37,613 --> 01:39:38,753
I can't.

1333
01:39:39,253 --> 01:39:41,233
I think I know people who could, though.

1334
01:39:41,233 --> 01:39:42,473
What happens in the batteries?

1335
01:39:42,473 --> 01:39:47,333
you know as far when you said well you know we're self-sufficient and the prices and the

1336
01:39:47,333 --> 01:39:52,914
wouldn't be surprised if you worked it out on paper and realized that um the the purchasing of

1337
01:39:52,914 --> 01:39:56,873
an electric car because buying a second-hand electric car is probably not a good idea because

1338
01:39:56,873 --> 01:40:04,333
it's the battery that's the thing so you you have to spend quite a lot of money and then who knows

1339
01:40:04,333 --> 01:40:10,314
you know it would have been cheaper just to use a diesel one or yeah i don't know what a lot of

1340
01:40:10,314 --> 01:40:14,633
people around who do is they have golf carts electric golf carts that's a good idea because

1341
01:40:14,633 --> 01:40:18,853
then when you know the batteries wear out it's easy to pop it out and get another one you fix it

1342
01:40:18,853 --> 01:40:23,814
um and if the whole thing craps out it was you know they're getting amused from golf courses for

1343
01:40:23,814 --> 01:40:27,933
you know a thousand bucks or something but where do you where do you go where would you go we would

1344
01:40:27,933 --> 01:40:33,394
go up and down our road we would go to the farm in a golf course or golf cart i would you know

1345
01:40:33,394 --> 01:40:37,493
drive out like if i need to take a bunch of chainsaws out someplace throw them in a golf

1346
01:40:37,493 --> 01:40:42,414
cart take them out on a on a path and leave them where i'm going to use them stuff like that i mean

1347
01:40:42,414 --> 01:40:47,853
people just use them to get around we had a couple at the farm down there and they mostly would use

1348
01:40:47,853 --> 01:40:51,774
them like oh i got to take a bag of grain over to the chickens you throw in the back of that and you

1349
01:40:51,774 --> 01:40:56,973
just go over so they're really nice and they're easy um and they're quiet and as long as they work

1350
01:40:56,973 --> 01:41:01,233
they're great and then they stop working and then nobody can figure out how to fix them yeah

1351
01:41:01,233 --> 01:41:04,473
Yeah, or we would use a quad bike still, I think.

1352
01:41:04,873 --> 01:41:05,834
But there are no easy.

1353
01:41:05,834 --> 01:41:06,154
Right.

1354
01:41:06,334 --> 01:41:09,433
So, yeah, and we have one of those, and we're having some problems with it.

1355
01:41:09,493 --> 01:41:11,013
But, you know, we'll get it fixed up.

1356
01:41:11,294 --> 01:41:13,933
And, yeah, so there are things you can do with it,

1357
01:41:13,973 --> 01:41:16,794
but it's just people keep telling us, like, yeah, if you had an electric car,

1358
01:41:16,873 --> 01:41:18,794
then you could charge it basically for free.

1359
01:41:20,113 --> 01:41:24,233
Or a hybrid, right, so that you can still run it on gas if you need to.

1360
01:41:24,334 --> 01:41:24,673
Yes.

1361
01:41:24,814 --> 01:41:26,294
And that would be a better choice.

1362
01:41:26,294 --> 01:41:29,933
I don't like all this electric stuff, I'll be honest.

1363
01:41:29,933 --> 01:41:38,493
because of it because it disempowers me as a as a fixer it really does yes and also it means that

1364
01:41:38,493 --> 01:41:45,213
i'm i'm yeah beholden to the battery companies really i have to buy a new battery and i know

1365
01:41:45,213 --> 01:41:50,933
tesla batteries don't have a long life like they're the main one i know about they don't have a

1366
01:41:50,933 --> 01:41:56,013
particularly long life cycle in a car and when they when you change them they're like a substantial

1367
01:41:56,013 --> 01:42:01,574
cost of the car it's not like you just go and get a new battery and pop it in it's like half the car

1368
01:42:01,574 --> 01:42:06,493
that is yeah that's the major component of the car that's the thing that makes it different from

1369
01:42:06,493 --> 01:42:13,753
other cars so yes whereas my yeah my i've got a toyota hilux that has a really simple engine in

1370
01:42:13,753 --> 01:42:20,733
it when you open the in 2015 when you look inside you'll recognize all the parts but they when you

1371
01:42:20,733 --> 01:42:25,173
drive them, if you've been driving new cars, you'll be like,

1372
01:42:25,233 --> 01:42:27,193
something wrong with this, because you have to put it into

1373
01:42:27,193 --> 01:42:39,749
gear for real Oh well I actually prefer that Me too I don mind that at all i mean it yeah we have a truck that somebody borrowing now it manual transmission i fine with that i like that

1374
01:42:39,749 --> 01:42:45,049
and i i think we talked about this when you first got here i just i have come to appreciate more and

1375
01:42:45,049 --> 01:42:51,529
more pieces of equipment where all the connections are visible and traceable and understandable

1376
01:42:51,529 --> 01:42:57,029
and as soon as you put a computer into something it's like that's that link is broken that could

1377
01:42:57,029 --> 01:43:02,789
be doing anything well yeah that's the point and it is doing anything yeah my car that i'm that you

1378
01:43:02,789 --> 01:43:08,709
kindly got me up that hill there in the first thing it does when you switch on is uh it says

1379
01:43:08,709 --> 01:43:14,329
google services is sending do you agree to this that and the other and i went through and i ticked

1380
01:43:14,329 --> 01:43:20,209
everything no no no no no no you know but almost certainly i mean there's sat nav in there there's

1381
01:43:20,209 --> 01:43:25,749
everything is i i am a product driving around and people are tracking me and yeah and i don't like

1382
01:43:25,749 --> 01:43:32,109
that and if you go you don't have to go back that far in history like my 2015 is a great truck i love

1383
01:43:32,109 --> 01:43:38,169
it and it's got it's got electric windows which is so it's it's got yeah it's got some mod cons

1384
01:43:38,169 --> 01:43:44,329
but beyond that it's just a good truck and it and i can last time it got fixed it cost me about

1385
01:43:44,329 --> 01:43:50,189
300 to change something whereas the one we had before that which was a whatever land rover

1386
01:43:50,189 --> 01:43:56,309
discovery or whatever that was always more than a thousand pounds whenever something went wrong

1387
01:43:56,309 --> 01:44:02,789
always and half the time it was the sensor that needed replacing because the light came on and

1388
01:44:02,789 --> 01:44:08,029
said there's you know like my like what bugs me most is when it tells you there's not enough air

1389
01:44:08,029 --> 01:44:13,629
in the tires yeah we get when did we ever have that and there's some special battery we need to

1390
01:44:13,629 --> 01:44:18,109
buy for the sensor in the tire but when did you ever need to know how much air in your tires you've

1391
01:44:18,109 --> 01:44:23,609
either got a puncture or you're just driving around in your car because you can tell not

1392
01:44:23,609 --> 01:44:27,469
hopefully yes you can tell if if you can hear that you've got a puncture other than that

1393
01:44:27,469 --> 01:44:34,989
the wheels are the wheels it doesn't have to be exactly full of air i know yeah no it's no there's

1394
01:44:34,989 --> 01:44:39,849
there's a lot of uh stuff like that where it's just but even beyond like the radio and google

1395
01:44:39,849 --> 01:44:45,869
it's just you know oh we're we're using a computer to you know uh manage the the mixture of air and

1396
01:44:45,869 --> 01:44:53,769
gas and if that decides to crap out then you can't do anything you know so just yeah every i i am

1397
01:44:53,769 --> 01:44:59,569
really getting to appreciate all the things where and i i'm not a car fixer i know many people who

1398
01:44:59,569 --> 01:45:04,449
are right and i i sort of envy these bonus grandkids because they're growing up on a farm

1399
01:45:04,449 --> 01:45:09,209
where people are fixing shit left and right all the time and they're gonna see it and that's the

1400
01:45:09,209 --> 01:45:14,649
the attitude they'll be in is if something breaks you fix it you know they will unfortunately though

1401
01:45:14,649 --> 01:45:16,609
do away with

1402
01:45:16,609 --> 01:45:18,609
petrol cars and diesel cars.

1403
01:45:18,729 --> 01:45:19,389
They're going to try.

1404
01:45:20,469 --> 01:45:22,749
Do you think that people might take up

1405
01:45:22,749 --> 01:45:25,269
arms in this country if they try and get rid of that?

1406
01:45:26,149 --> 01:45:26,629
You know,

1407
01:45:26,869 --> 01:45:28,869
I think that is

1408
01:45:28,869 --> 01:45:30,729
one of the things that it could be, but

1409
01:45:30,729 --> 01:45:32,729
one of the things that happened in COVID

1410
01:45:32,729 --> 01:45:34,049
was I really thought

1411
01:45:34,049 --> 01:45:36,849
religion, I thought churches

1412
01:45:36,849 --> 01:45:39,009
were going to be a line you couldn't cross

1413
01:45:39,009 --> 01:45:40,609
and people just caved.

1414
01:45:41,009 --> 01:45:43,029
And that was one of the most

1415
01:45:43,029 --> 01:45:48,269
depressing things I ever went through. It was just like, they're like, oh, sorry, you can't go to

1416
01:45:48,269 --> 01:45:52,469
church on Sunday. And I thought, man, I don't go to church myself. But I was like, man, that's not

1417
01:45:52,469 --> 01:45:58,489
a thing you just say okay to. And then they said okay to it. So I don't know. I don't know how

1418
01:45:58,489 --> 01:46:04,129
conditioned people are, how much they value now convenience over freedom or responsibility,

1419
01:46:04,129 --> 01:46:08,329
wherever. And it might just be they're like, okay, this is how it works, right? You just tell

1420
01:46:08,329 --> 01:46:13,449
us what to do and we'll do it i don't know but that that would be i mean americans do love their

1421
01:46:13,449 --> 01:46:19,829
cars i think that's right up there with guns um so it's going to be interesting right now my my

1422
01:46:19,829 --> 01:46:24,849
sense is that they announce this because they want to sound like it's a lofty goal but they

1423
01:46:24,849 --> 01:46:29,529
don't really have the intention of doing it they just push of actually getting rid of internal

1424
01:46:29,529 --> 01:46:33,589
combustion they just say well we'll push it back another five years because they'll always they're

1425
01:46:33,589 --> 01:46:39,829
never like okay next year we're doing this it's always like oh in 2050 we'll do it yeah but it's

1426
01:46:39,829 --> 01:46:47,169
um it's it depends because it relies on the environmental spiel doesn't it if that if that

1427
01:46:47,169 --> 01:46:55,149
people seem to be losing i've noticed just my anecdotal kind of eye has noticed that far less

1428
01:46:55,149 --> 01:47:00,849
people believe in that stuff now and and and it's kind of cracking and that's why i'm saying i don't

1429
01:47:00,849 --> 01:47:04,489
think they'll ever get around to doing it. And then, you know, you get places that, oh, we'll

1430
01:47:04,489 --> 01:47:09,049
buy a fleet of, you know, school buses that are all electric and oh, they won't run in the winter

1431
01:47:09,049 --> 01:47:14,469
because we forgot. Batteries don't work that well in the cold. You know, so I think people see the

1432
01:47:14,469 --> 01:47:18,309
stories and people have been told, oh, New York City is going to be underwater by, you know,

1433
01:47:18,649 --> 01:47:26,109
2018. No, wait, we meant 2020. No, no, we meant 2024. Next year, next year it'll be underwater.

1434
01:47:26,109 --> 01:47:29,669
And people are just like at a certain point, it's just fatigue.

1435
01:47:29,989 --> 01:47:34,629
You're just like, okay, I'm not really going to listen to that anymore.

1436
01:47:35,489 --> 01:47:41,329
So I think that's one of the ways that any movement like that can overplay their hand

1437
01:47:41,329 --> 01:47:44,569
and just keep saying, and that's the thing you see with Trump.

1438
01:47:44,629 --> 01:47:45,629
Trump's a Nazi, Trump's a Nazi.

1439
01:47:45,649 --> 01:47:47,529
And at a certain point, people just, yeah, okay.

1440
01:47:48,209 --> 01:47:49,489
You just keep saying that.

1441
01:47:50,389 --> 01:47:54,049
But they can normally keep finding a new thing, can't they?

1442
01:47:54,629 --> 01:47:55,069
Possibly.

1443
01:47:55,069 --> 01:47:56,029
And they might.

1444
01:47:56,109 --> 01:48:04,969
Yes, although, again, I think there's a – I hope that people just get fatigued and just say, you know what, let's move on to something more substantive, right?

1445
01:48:05,249 --> 01:48:06,689
Oh, the end of the world's coming.

1446
01:48:07,449 --> 01:48:09,769
No, the end of the world's – no, now it's coming, right?

1447
01:48:10,029 --> 01:48:16,849
So, you saw around the end of the century, all these people, oh, you know, God is coming back and we're all going to die or something, blah, blah.

1448
01:48:16,849 --> 01:48:19,289
And it's like the world will end in the Mayan calendar.

1449
01:48:19,449 --> 01:48:22,009
And it's like after a while, it's just like, okay, another one of those.

1450
01:48:22,589 --> 01:48:23,709
That kind of fatigue.

1451
01:48:23,889 --> 01:48:25,209
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard this.

1452
01:48:25,209 --> 01:48:31,029
you know tell tell me when the when the you know the meteorite is you know going to hit next week

1453
01:48:31,029 --> 01:48:36,589
and then and then i'll worry about it might be wood fires that's something they talk about where

1454
01:48:36,589 --> 01:48:41,889
i live can you believe that i mean and the worst thing about trying to ban wood fires is that you

1455
01:48:41,889 --> 01:48:46,729
can see smoke coming out of people's chimneys so and from a long way away where i live yeah and it

1456
01:48:46,729 --> 01:48:54,309
would be a real thing that because everyone i know uses wood yeah not not to necessarily heat their

1457
01:48:54,309 --> 01:49:00,369
whole house but for fun really yeah it's you know we use it often to heat a lot of our house

1458
01:49:00,369 --> 01:49:07,089
but we sit around the fire every night you know whereas but yeah i don't know if if they if they

1459
01:49:07,089 --> 01:49:12,009
banned it in towns already right and that's the thing so the people in town are just like okay

1460
01:49:12,009 --> 01:49:17,689
whatever but seriously there's a lot of people out who need internal combustion engines and they need

1461
01:49:17,689 --> 01:49:24,249
cars and they need you know to run their stoves using fossil fuels and they need this stuff and

1462
01:49:24,249 --> 01:49:30,569
when you suddenly come and say yeah you can't do that anymore well they can't they well it's like

1463
01:49:30,569 --> 01:49:35,029
you guys will just give in because you have no guns how do they know what you're doing up here

1464
01:49:35,029 --> 01:49:41,649
anyway does anyone ever come up you know no people people don't very much um and there's an

1465
01:49:41,649 --> 01:49:46,289
interesting thing in new hampshire which is one of the things i love most about it so the the towns

1466
01:49:46,289 --> 01:49:51,069
every town will revalue property every once in a while because they need to know how much

1467
01:49:51,069 --> 01:49:58,469
you have to pay them to run schools and stuff so but and so they send people to come up and like

1468
01:49:58,469 --> 01:50:02,869
we'll measure your house and come in and and you know see how many bedrooms you have and whatever

1469
01:50:02,869 --> 01:50:07,329
and you're free to just say get the fuck out of here yeah and they'll turn around and leave

1470
01:50:07,329 --> 01:50:14,109
yeah you don't have to let them on yeah they're they're supposed to do it but you know you just

1471
01:50:14,109 --> 01:50:15,389
go away

1472
01:50:15,389 --> 01:50:17,349
I bet most people don't realize that as well

1473
01:50:17,349 --> 01:50:19,909
yeah a lot of people don't but the people doing it

1474
01:50:19,909 --> 01:50:21,849
have probably had enough shotguns pointed at them

1475
01:50:21,849 --> 01:50:23,629
that they're like okay

1476
01:50:23,629 --> 01:50:25,989
have a nice

1477
01:50:25,989 --> 01:50:26,369
day

1478
01:50:26,369 --> 01:50:26,889
well

1479
01:50:26,889 --> 01:50:31,169
Ian we've been talking for nearly two hours

1480
01:50:31,169 --> 01:50:33,309
mate and I've already been

1481
01:50:33,309 --> 01:50:34,429
speaking to your wife for an hour

1482
01:50:34,429 --> 01:50:37,329
I'm still reading from

1483
01:50:37,329 --> 01:50:38,409
your idea of

1484
01:50:38,409 --> 01:50:41,169
what's the book called that that's in then

1485
01:50:41,169 --> 01:50:42,269
which the

1486
01:50:42,269 --> 01:50:45,249
The extreme self-governance.

1487
01:50:45,389 --> 01:50:46,809
It isn't a book yet.

1488
01:50:47,149 --> 01:50:50,289
So I will send you the, I can show you the grant.

1489
01:50:50,509 --> 01:50:51,389
Does it have a name?

1490
01:50:51,569 --> 01:50:53,429
Does that governance model have a name?

1491
01:50:54,509 --> 01:50:55,289
It doesn't yet.

1492
01:50:55,289 --> 01:50:58,329
So if you'd like to come up with one, you could.

1493
01:50:58,829 --> 01:50:59,269
So, yeah.

1494
01:50:59,789 --> 01:51:01,609
I like challenges like that.

1495
01:51:01,769 --> 01:51:02,069
I can't.

1496
01:51:02,969 --> 01:51:05,489
It's, I don't know.

1497
01:51:05,709 --> 01:51:07,229
It's the kind of thing that, like I say,

1498
01:51:07,329 --> 01:51:11,869
I either want it to be a science fiction book or a computer game.

1499
01:51:11,869 --> 01:51:17,109
that i can model because i want to see it i want to i want to see it play out yeah you know like in

1500
01:51:17,109 --> 01:51:23,929
kind of sims where everyone says what they can don't do and don't like right from the beginning

1501
01:51:23,929 --> 01:51:32,629
and then an algorithm then acts acts as the law and and because it would you know i'd rather see

1502
01:51:32,629 --> 01:51:39,629
it modeled before it got rolled out if you see what i mean you know yeah no no i and i you know

1503
01:51:39,629 --> 01:51:42,489
I'd be happy to consult on anything that anybody wants to do with it.

1504
01:51:42,549 --> 01:51:44,489
I'm not the guy to write either of those things.

1505
01:51:45,189 --> 01:51:48,629
Other than that, I think it's something for the far future, unfortunately.

1506
01:51:49,409 --> 01:51:53,989
Yes, but what I'm trying to do, so there's Milton Friedman, who I'm sure you know about.

1507
01:51:54,209 --> 01:51:56,249
He said something that motivates me.

1508
01:51:56,329 --> 01:51:59,569
It keeps me going sometimes when you just think, God, everything sucks.

1509
01:51:59,569 --> 01:52:03,029
He said, only in a crisis will you have real change.

1510
01:52:03,269 --> 01:52:08,929
And when a crisis occurs, what happens next depends on the ideas that are lying around.

1511
01:52:09,629 --> 01:52:12,429
when, as he put it, and I love this phrase,

1512
01:52:12,509 --> 01:52:15,209
when the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable.

1513
01:52:15,909 --> 01:52:16,689
So that's what I'm doing.

1514
01:52:16,769 --> 01:52:19,309
I'm trying to get people to think about things like community centers

1515
01:52:19,309 --> 01:52:22,249
instead of schools and thinking about using political parties

1516
01:52:22,249 --> 01:52:24,949
instead of a whole government to get what they want or whatever.

1517
01:52:25,329 --> 01:52:28,429
So if I can stick that idea in your head and you'll go away

1518
01:52:28,429 --> 01:52:42,365
and a week from now a month from now you be thinking about us and go could we make this work Then I succeeded Well the place that you try these things out believe it or not are in free cities

1519
01:52:43,205 --> 01:52:46,145
And in, like, the special economic zones

1520
01:52:46,145 --> 01:52:47,945
are the same for economics.

1521
01:52:48,445 --> 01:52:48,645
Yeah.

1522
01:52:48,765 --> 01:52:51,265
You try out a new model in a small area.

1523
01:52:53,805 --> 01:52:56,005
But, yeah, I mean...

1524
01:52:56,005 --> 01:52:58,225
I mean, what's funny is it's still the free cities,

1525
01:52:58,325 --> 01:52:59,665
and I don't know that much about them,

1526
01:52:59,665 --> 01:53:03,365
but it is still a like, it's somewhat geographic.

1527
01:53:03,585 --> 01:53:04,625
We're all going to get together here.

1528
01:53:04,865 --> 01:53:08,585
Yes, but you could, as a microcosm,

1529
01:53:09,145 --> 01:53:13,225
you could say within the confines of this city.

1530
01:53:13,405 --> 01:53:15,245
Sure, but you could also then say

1531
01:53:15,245 --> 01:53:17,625
we will have several cities in a network

1532
01:53:17,625 --> 01:53:20,205
and they don't have to do, right?

1533
01:53:20,285 --> 01:53:22,545
They can cooperate with the other cities

1534
01:53:22,545 --> 01:53:24,685
and you see what can work in a network

1535
01:53:24,685 --> 01:53:26,805
and what has to be in a locality.

1536
01:53:27,185 --> 01:53:29,065
And that's a way to experiment with that

1537
01:53:29,065 --> 01:53:31,005
Because nobody knows the answer to that question yet.

1538
01:53:31,725 --> 01:53:37,725
But more and more, I think more and more you will find things like we don't have to actually be in the same place to do this.

1539
01:53:37,725 --> 01:53:43,405
I know, but the beautiful thing about what you're describing is that it's a function of technology.

1540
01:53:43,665 --> 01:53:43,965
Yes.

1541
01:53:44,165 --> 01:53:49,485
Which is great because you can't look to the past to see where it's been manifested before.

1542
01:53:49,705 --> 01:53:49,865
Yeah.

1543
01:53:50,005 --> 01:53:50,525
It doesn't.

1544
01:53:51,005 --> 01:53:52,485
And so it has never been tried.

1545
01:53:52,805 --> 01:53:54,085
It can't have been tried.

1546
01:53:54,085 --> 01:54:00,345
There's no way you could have that system unless it exists in a kind of personal, interpersonal way, which it kind of does, I suppose.

1547
01:54:00,965 --> 01:54:12,105
When you meet someone, you know, like in the street you've never met before in a random place, you've got things that you won't do to them and they've got things that, you know, like, but you know what I mean.

1548
01:54:12,105 --> 01:54:25,925
Yeah, it's just this very small, you know, least common denominator of what we've agreed not to do to each other, which mostly means don't hurt each other and don't take our stuff, which, you know, then becomes libertarianism that, oh, that's what we were saying.

1549
01:54:25,985 --> 01:54:27,865
And it's like, yeah, okay, but you don't need the name.

1550
01:54:28,605 --> 01:54:30,345
You just need the idea of consent.

1551
01:54:30,345 --> 01:54:56,725
Before we go then, do you think libertarianism is a, is a, is kind of like, and don't take this the wrong way, but is a very elevated form of, of, of living a very hard, you know, do you know what I mean? Like, is it when you go through the evolution of, of life and of ways to interact with your fellow men, is this kind of like at the pinnacle of what you could understand about, about life?

1552
01:54:56,725 --> 01:55:17,585
Oh, I don't think it's the pinnacle at all. I think it is. I think it's the distinction I see between that and other political movements is they're at least trying to base everything on first principles, which I'm a big fan of, right?

1553
01:55:17,585 --> 01:55:20,045
I mean, you look at the Republican Party, what do they stand for?

1554
01:55:20,105 --> 01:55:20,745
Who the hell knows?

1555
01:55:20,965 --> 01:55:21,485
Nobody knows.

1556
01:55:21,585 --> 01:55:22,645
What do the Democrats stand for?

1557
01:55:22,725 --> 01:55:24,645
What do the various parties in Europe stand for?

1558
01:55:24,725 --> 01:55:24,885
Nobody.

1559
01:55:25,485 --> 01:55:29,045
We want this bag of stuff, and we don't like that bag of stuff.

1560
01:55:29,185 --> 01:55:33,805
And like right now, somebody who's a Republican here, if they say, I'm a Republican or I'm

1561
01:55:33,805 --> 01:55:38,425
a Democrat, it tells you nothing about what they actually think about almost anything.

1562
01:55:39,805 --> 01:55:43,065
Statistically, you can say, yeah, if they're Democrat, they're probably pro-abortion, but

1563
01:55:43,065 --> 01:55:44,385
Republicans are too.

1564
01:55:44,385 --> 01:55:49,045
or they're probably anti-gun except some of them are pro-gun.

1565
01:55:49,185 --> 01:55:53,825
So it's just there's no set of principles there except we want to win elections.

1566
01:55:54,225 --> 01:55:57,385
Libertarians have the luxury of knowing they're not going to win any elections.

1567
01:55:58,145 --> 01:56:01,545
So they can be very principled, right?

1568
01:56:02,285 --> 01:56:03,905
Until they start winning.

1569
01:56:04,905 --> 01:56:05,465
Right.

1570
01:56:05,665 --> 01:56:08,645
When they start winning, then it'll suddenly be,

1571
01:56:08,645 --> 01:56:13,685
oh, now the extra principle that comes in is we must continue to win.

1572
01:56:14,385 --> 01:56:15,845
And that changes everything.

1573
01:56:16,045 --> 01:56:18,725
That changes the nature of the venture.

1574
01:56:18,925 --> 01:56:20,445
It changes the nature of the institution.

1575
01:56:20,625 --> 01:56:24,905
It changes everything when your concern becomes winning, right?

1576
01:56:25,245 --> 01:56:31,065
So in that sense, you can say, I would say they have a more principled stance, but they

1577
01:56:31,065 --> 01:56:32,785
can afford to, right?

1578
01:56:32,785 --> 01:56:39,105
Because they're never going to be called upon, or not never, they will not anytime soon be

1579
01:56:39,105 --> 01:56:45,325
called upon to actually solve problems and have to deal with all the people who want to kill them

1580
01:56:45,325 --> 01:56:50,266
as a result of their solutions which democrats and republicans have you know centuries of

1581
01:56:50,266 --> 01:56:59,905
experience with so but but elevated i think is you know what i mean is it it's more i put it this way

1582
01:56:59,905 --> 01:57:07,405
i think um yeah but i wouldn't necessarily i don't know what to i i don't call i wouldn't say

1583
01:57:07,405 --> 01:57:10,405
I'm a libertarian because I don't really know what that means necessarily.

1584
01:57:10,585 --> 01:57:11,745
It might mean something different to you.

1585
01:57:12,165 --> 01:57:17,665
But the principles of non-aggression, the principles of, you know, the golden rule,

1586
01:57:17,805 --> 01:57:22,425
all these kind of things, they seem to be the kind of ideas that you end up at,

1587
01:57:22,945 --> 01:57:23,725
if you know what I mean.

1588
01:57:24,185 --> 01:57:25,745
I do know what you mean.

1589
01:57:25,825 --> 01:57:30,925
And I think, though, that you end up at them when you have a certain set of experiences.

1590
01:57:31,245 --> 01:57:32,745
Like, in fact, I'll give you a copy.

1591
01:57:33,006 --> 01:57:33,745
You can have that.

1592
01:57:33,805 --> 01:57:34,525
And I'll give you a copy.

1593
01:57:34,525 --> 01:57:37,305
One of the books you mentioned, Losing the Religion of Liberty,

1594
01:57:37,405 --> 01:57:45,745
it's actually about this. It is about sort of becoming a religious, in a sense, libertarian,

1595
01:57:45,945 --> 01:57:49,825
this is the right answer, and how I sort of got away from that. And now I just look at,

1596
01:57:50,286 --> 01:57:54,225
okay, this is one possible way to run things. There are lots of possible ways to run things,

1597
01:57:54,506 --> 01:57:59,085
depending on what your goals are, you know. So again, it can come down to something as simple

1598
01:57:59,085 --> 01:58:04,525
as if you decide as a matter of choice, not as a matter of a principle in the world,

1599
01:58:04,525 --> 01:58:06,685
not as like a law of gravity or anything.

1600
01:58:07,125 --> 01:58:11,025
If you decide as a choice that individuals are more important than society,

1601
01:58:11,945 --> 01:58:15,485
then yes, libertarian is going to seem, that's going to seem very obvious to you.

1602
01:58:15,525 --> 01:58:19,725
But if you believe that humans are, you know, you take more of a Gaian thing,

1603
01:58:19,865 --> 01:58:23,585
humans are this sort of bigger, not even a species,

1604
01:58:23,905 --> 01:58:26,745
but there's some magic organism that's doing this stuff

1605
01:58:26,745 --> 01:58:28,786
and you're just one little part of this organism.

1606
01:58:28,965 --> 01:58:30,985
Then if you have to go, you have to go, right?

1607
01:58:31,145 --> 01:58:33,925
Then you just get a completely different view of things.

1608
01:58:33,925 --> 01:58:40,825
so you know and so yeah we have to get rid of the dissenters if your goal is some kind of harmony

1609
01:58:40,825 --> 01:58:46,645
then okay that's fine if your goal is no the dissenters are the important ones then it's not

1610
01:58:46,645 --> 01:58:54,685
fine in the free cities movement that is solved by competing places small competing places who

1611
01:58:54,685 --> 01:59:02,325
have their own ideology or okay they're basically contractual in in in i mean you don't have to be

1612
01:59:02,325 --> 01:59:09,565
but the model that i like the most is we build a city it has a wall yeah and if you want to join

1613
01:59:09,565 --> 01:59:13,766
the city you can opt into the city whenever you want there is a contract an actual contract not a

1614
01:59:13,766 --> 01:59:18,625
social contract an actual contract that says what you can and can't do and if you choose to that's

1615
01:59:18,625 --> 01:59:23,885
good if you don't you go to that door yeah yeah well no you go to the other one that does do what

1616
01:59:23,885 --> 01:59:32,045
you want right and you know but i i kind of in a way i like your idea of of um of having it

1617
01:59:32,045 --> 01:59:41,345
having having that aspect of it exist in the digital realm in because that's a more 21st

1618
01:59:41,345 --> 01:59:46,865
century i mean free the ideas of free cities have existed kind of without the mind you we're using

1619
01:59:46,865 --> 01:59:51,905
the contract that's the kind of innovation i suppose but the innovation with yours is you

1620
01:59:51,905 --> 01:59:53,585
You don't have to change a huge amount.

1621
01:59:54,165 --> 01:59:54,766
I mean, you do.

1622
01:59:55,065 --> 01:59:59,225
But about the actual physical realm, you don't have to change a lot.

1623
01:59:59,225 --> 02:00:02,725
All the things that I'm advocating, the technology exists.

1624
02:00:02,845 --> 02:00:03,545
We know how to do it.

1625
02:00:03,565 --> 02:00:04,705
We do it for other things.

1626
02:00:04,885 --> 02:00:06,325
We have insurance companies.

1627
02:00:06,525 --> 02:00:08,305
We all pay money in, and then they pay money out.

1628
02:00:09,485 --> 02:00:10,545
There's nothing new here.

1629
02:00:10,925 --> 02:00:13,205
It's just letting go of this idea.

1630
02:00:13,985 --> 02:00:17,045
Well, everybody has to get insurance from my company.

1631
02:00:17,305 --> 02:00:18,705
It's like, no, they don't.

1632
02:00:19,245 --> 02:00:20,465
They can go without insurance.

1633
02:00:20,565 --> 02:00:21,705
They can get a different company.

1634
02:00:21,705 --> 02:00:25,405
You know what? Another expression that we use a lot is governance as a service.

1635
02:00:26,365 --> 02:00:28,485
No, but what you're describing, it should be.

1636
02:00:29,045 --> 02:00:34,105
Governance is a service that should be provided and you should be able to choose between your governance.

1637
02:00:34,405 --> 02:00:39,485
So if you're not getting a good service, you should be able to get a better service.

1638
02:00:39,925 --> 02:00:42,685
I know democracy apparently solves that problem, but it doesn't.

1639
02:00:42,985 --> 02:00:43,506
No, it doesn't.

1640
02:00:43,525 --> 02:00:45,145
We've just kind of like discussed.

1641
02:00:45,145 --> 02:00:45,385
No, it doesn't.

1642
02:00:45,506 --> 02:00:50,745
I like the word service because like to be serviced, like you get serviced like a bull services a cow.

1643
02:00:50,745 --> 02:00:53,085
You know, that's how I think of government service.

1644
02:00:53,985 --> 02:00:55,845
Yeah, I'm going to service you real good.

1645
02:00:56,365 --> 02:00:57,485
No, it's not.

1646
02:00:57,725 --> 02:01:00,905
It's the treatment, you know, like, yeah.

1647
02:01:01,205 --> 02:01:05,485
I meant to tell you earlier when you were talking to Jody, you were talking about state mottos.

1648
02:01:06,125 --> 02:01:09,665
And actually, you know, if you're not in America, you don't see these things.

1649
02:01:09,786 --> 02:01:11,645
But ours changed during COVID.

1650
02:01:11,825 --> 02:01:13,425
It is no longer live for your diet.

1651
02:01:13,465 --> 02:01:15,445
It is now public health trumps everything.

1652
02:01:16,685 --> 02:01:20,625
And also the New York change there.

1653
02:01:20,745 --> 02:01:24,025
from the Empire State to in loco parentis.

1654
02:01:24,845 --> 02:01:28,165
That's actually their motto now.

1655
02:01:28,306 --> 02:01:29,685
I'll take your word for it.

1656
02:01:31,145 --> 02:01:33,425
Let's end on some good misinformation.

1657
02:01:33,806 --> 02:01:34,445
That's what I like.

1658
02:01:35,445 --> 02:01:37,485
Ian, thanks indeed.

1659
02:01:37,985 --> 02:01:40,645
I wish we could do this again.

1660
02:01:40,645 --> 02:01:45,525
You know, you like to do it in person, but otherwise, I mean, I can do this forever.

1661
02:01:46,605 --> 02:01:48,825
It's a prerequisite of what I do.

1662
02:01:48,825 --> 02:01:50,925
and you probably understand why.

1663
02:01:51,165 --> 02:01:51,385
I do.

1664
02:01:51,685 --> 02:01:53,405
It wouldn't be the same online

1665
02:01:53,405 --> 02:01:57,465
and it wouldn't be the same having to drive down your drive

1666
02:01:57,465 --> 02:01:58,445
and all this stuff.

1667
02:01:58,465 --> 02:01:58,985
No, no, no, that's all fun.

1668
02:01:58,985 --> 02:02:02,165
No, but this is, I get something out of this as well.

1669
02:02:02,325 --> 02:02:02,545
Sure.

1670
02:02:02,605 --> 02:02:04,165
And not only just this conversation,

1671
02:02:04,325 --> 02:02:07,125
but in the fact that I've come to this amazing place

1672
02:02:07,125 --> 02:02:09,465
and I've seen, you know, when I go, I'll remember

1673
02:02:09,465 --> 02:02:12,165
there's two people living just there.

1674
02:02:12,905 --> 02:02:15,766
Well, if I'm ever in the UK, I'll let you know ahead of time.

1675
02:02:15,965 --> 02:02:16,345
Yeah, come to our farm.

1676
02:02:16,345 --> 02:02:17,085
I'd love to see that.

1677
02:02:17,085 --> 02:02:17,786
You'd be welcome to.

1678
02:02:17,786 --> 02:02:21,945
but thanks very much for your time thank you love this conversation thanks thank you