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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation. Hello and welcome to this episode number 162 of the Free Cities

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podcast brought to you by Veritas Villages. Veritas Villages are building off-grid freedom-oriented

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communities in Latin America. And these are communities that will appeal to freedom lovers

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who are looking to live amongst like-minded individuals in places like Nicaragua, Panama,

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and a new one in Costa Rica. And if you're a Bitcoiner, well, you can buy your property with

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Bitcoin and spend Bitcoin at any one of Veritas Village's communities. They can even help you mine

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Bitcoin with the excess energy that your self-sufficient home will inevitably produce.

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Right. You know where to go for more info.

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www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities.

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Please mention us if you decide to do business with them.

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And I'm going to repeat just one more time something that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago.

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There are two properties that have just come onto the market.

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They're just finished in their Nicaragua Veritas village.

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That's in Playa Pacifica.

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And these are available for sale with preferred pricing.

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That's 2025 pricing.

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Construction and material reviews take place regularly on these builds.

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And the price in 2026 will be very different.

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so you've got up until the 31st of december to get your preferred pricing cost of these two

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amazing beachfront residences and by the looks of it that means a saving of about 30 000 dollars if

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you choose to go ahead click on the link send them a message tell them you're interested

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and thank me later right today's show it's probably the last one of 2025 by the looks of it

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so i thought maybe we should look into the future and dive into the world of longevity

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vladimir leshko is a biomedical engineer and the coo of unlimited bio which is a gene therapy

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company who've positioned themselves within prospera to work on longevity medicine

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now gene therapy and longevity and the right to opt out of aging are no longer science fiction

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and in fact they're colliding quite heavily with regulation philosophy and meaning right now that's

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what my ai thought anyway what are the key takeaways from this conversation well why

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prosper enables gene therapy trials that are impossible elsewhere how gene therapy differs

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from editing dna and why most fears about those things are misplaced and what radical longevity

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would mean for identity spirituality and human purpose now that was my favorite part of the

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convo of course we go into near-death experiences spirituality psychedelics and the psychological

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risks of confronting uncomfortable truths closing with a really interesting discussion about

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you guessed it ai abundance meaning and whether choosing not to die could become a moral imperative

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rather than a technological curiosity right not going to beat around the bush today too much

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goes without saying that I wish you all a very very very Merry Christmas although I've learnt

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from past experience not to go too heavy into the seasonal things in these intros

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because according to my research at least quite a few of you will be listening to this in January

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and beyond and in my experience there's nothing worse than hearing someone getting all Christmasy

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about something when it's all over it's a terrible feeling that is right i'll stop

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thank you of course to our excellent value for value subscribers and can i ask a favor

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would anyone listen to this who hasn't already done so please drop us a quick review

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in your podcasting app i know i should ask more often i'm told i mean you don't even need to write

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anything just click on the stars to rate us however you think we perform and especially

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if you're an apple podcasts user there's a strangely low number of reviews on there and i

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don't know why but you could help by putting your review on there right remember guys and girls

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if you're 54 years old or less that's my age by the way then according to this interview at least

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you will be able to decide to live for as long as you like.

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Think about that one.

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That's definitely worth sitting back and relaxing for

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as you enjoy my last 2025 conversation with Vladimir Leshko.

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Good, Vladimir Leshko.

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Yeah, that's correct.

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Correct.

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right i've got i've done look i've got very limited amount of information here i'm challenging

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myself well at least you've got my name that's something yes i have well you know like we

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because i've been we're on episode what 150 something and it's it's mainly free cities

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content well i mean it's free cities freedom content so i've spoken about most things so i

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can tug on most threads but i suppose in in honesty one of the one of the things i've spoken

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the least about is probably longevity that kind of stuff well i had a guy called um

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oh what was his name oh that's a bit embarrassing a medical doctor right no no no no no he was a guy

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who was who was proposing a a sort of longevity city oh lawrence iron yeah lawrence i'm a good

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friend oh you you know lawrence right okay lawrence was the only person i ended up really speaking to

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about um but he's not uh he's not a scientist in any shape or form technically i am a scientist

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i have a master's degree in biomedical engineering but well i i don't do a scientific job in the

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company so i'm i think i'm not qualified enough to uh go deeply into the science but i have some

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sort of a helicopter view. So, so what is the company? Unlimited Bio are we talking about?

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Okay. Correct. Let's, let's talk. So here's, here's my, my observation of what's going on here.

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You're a gene therapy company, potentially. Yes. Yeah. Unlimited Bio, Biohacking, that kind of

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stuff. And you have basically positioned yourself in Prospera because of the regulatory environment.

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Yeah, correct. Right. Perfect. Okay. Tell me a bit more about Unlimited Bio then.

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Let's start there.

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You know, our company started in 2024 when my co-founders, Ivan and Nena,

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they were visiting an event called, I think, Vitalia or something in the city in Prospera.

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Vitalia. Yeah, that's Nicholas's, right?

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Yeah, right. Nicholas and I think Lawrence was also on the team back then.

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So they were organizing it together.

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And you know they learned about mini so when magic a gene therapy company working in prospera and doing therapy experiments there and you know that led

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to a realization that actually in prospera you can do stuff important for

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us as like longevity enthusiasts and people who think aging is like the

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greatest villain of humankind that prosper gives us opportunities that no

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other country does and it doesn't give us in a way that we can be open about

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this we can do clinical trials and like officially register them for example on

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healthy volunteers who it's just an example for example they want to or run

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fast or they want to know think fast or whatever so and we can do a clinical

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trial on a certain drug or combination of therapies that will aim that

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enhancement of those individuals or that will be aimed at preventing certain

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disease from occurring and for example we'll be collecting biomarkers that

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correlate with this disease so registering such a trial outside of

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prospera would be just impossible I mean I know how much time and effort you

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would spend in trying to pass different IRBs ethical committees and so on and

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yeah it prosperates basically takes around a month or so and also it depends

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on the regulations you pick because prospera gives you three tracks there

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so first of all you can when you act in health space you have to pick health as

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a regulated space because you can hurt other people right so you can pick three

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opportunities there first of all you can elect it's so-called optimal

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regulation from one of the country and service called best practice

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countries so it's like US European Union Japan and so on for example if you are

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an entrepreneur from Japan you can just pick the same legal framework as in Japan

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and then when you function there you will just have to constantly show that

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you follow this framework to the regulator then the second option is

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designing your own regulation and getting it approved through some sort of

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like prosper board like government so to say then the other option is just

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picking one of those already designed regulations. And in our case, that's what we did. We just picked

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the regulation of our partner, GAM Clinic, that they already developed specifically to do trials

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like gene therapies, stem cells, and so on. Is that a particular country's regulation,

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or is that a prosperous thing? No, they took, I think, like FDA regulation and adapted it to be a

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bit more flexible so they have an IRB so in order to register a clinical trial we have to pass an

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like an independent committee of five people composed like according to the rules of how

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IRBs should be composed so it should have one scientist one non-scientist one person like

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from outside of the field and so on so yeah we have to get the they have to review the safety

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data we present like what's the rationale behind all this so we kind of have some regulation on

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top of us it's way less tricks than we would have in the us uh but still it doesn't allow us want to

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do like basically anything that comes to our mind and the last option there is just um acting based

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on common law and in this case you're subject to triple liability and you're also personally

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liable for what you do and you also isn't there another layer on top of that which is you need to

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be insured as well yeah so it doesn't matter whether you you could do all that correctly but

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if no one's going to insure you you still can't go ahead so and then they do the insurance company

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then basically does its own studies and background and stuff.

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Yeah, correct.

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Yeah, this is one of the things I think people don't understand about Prospera.

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I think the meme is you can just go there and do whatever you want

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because you can create your own regulations.

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But they don't understand, not only is there an internal process,

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but then even when you've got that through,

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if you want to create your own regulation,

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you've then got to find someone to insure you.

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And they're going to go back and do that whole process again.

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and there's more risk for them in a way than there is for you.

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So, you know, it's a great system,

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but it's just completely misunderstood by most people, I think, you know.

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Absolutely, yeah.

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I think people tend to simplify things.

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So they just hear Honduras clinical trials

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and then you just go to conclusions

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without taking an effort to actually examine the documents, whatever.

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Well, the other thing is, I think, gene therapy, oh God.

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You know, even me, I'm very open-minded,

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but that already conjures up pictures of Frankenstein people and grafting things onto, you know.

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Almost certainly people will be biased against gene therapy.

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I mean, gene therapy itself just sounds dangerous already.

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Put my mind at rest. You're someone that's actually involved in it.

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Why is gene therapy not as bad as I probably think it is?

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Well, first of all, because it's a solution to, I know, hundreds of thousands of diseases

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that we might inherit from our parents.

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And to give you a very close example, for example, 11 years ago, almost 11 years ago,

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I became a father, and my son was quite unexpectedly born completely deaf.

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Oh, really? I'm sorry, is it?

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Yeah, we realized that when he was four months old, commercial genetic tests like 23andMe

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and so on, at that time we were living in Russia and they were not openly available.

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They became available probably a few years later.

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And when we did this test, like the cheapest test on the market more or less, both me and

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wife and we had like the same uh you know red flag that's like keep in mind that you're a passive

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carrier of this um genotype that if you make a child with another person with the same genotype

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you have a 25 chance of having a deaf child really yeah because it's that easy to i mean it's that

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specific you can that seems really specific that you can you can just look at your genotype

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genome or whatever it's called and say right if you two mate there's a 25 chance yeah you can do

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that wow it's that specific yeah uh yeah uh it's so the 25 chance that you get a child with like a

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perfect so to say genotype uh who won't be even a carrier of that uh um gene then 50 percent of

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children will have the same genotype as you do and 25% will be carriers of active carriers

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of a disease.

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Yeah, and it's like the simplest form of inheritance that you know, I think I started it in school

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in like, mid school something biology.

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Malphys.

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And now then like 15 years later, so I am actually facing it directly this like form

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of inheritance that we did you know simple problems on biology lessons and I realized yeah

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that works and but it's not too bad because it was solved with cochlear implantation so he got

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implants at age one on both years and now he like speaks perfectly so people cannot really understand

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that he has problems hearing and he speaks three languages like English Dutch and we live in Netherlands and Russian So that just impressed me that how powerful technology can be

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And in this case, implants that can literally transform the life of a human and like a human who just got his chance was born.

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And, you know, it can also be solved with a gene therapy, of course.

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Yeah, that's one approach.

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It can also be solved with embryo editing.

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It can be solved with embryo selections.

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So right now you even have like a whole array of approaches of how to address a problem like that and thousands of similar problems.

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I've just got a quick question before you go on.

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You can't treat it retrospectively though.

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When you say you could treat that with gene therapy, do you mean that you and your wife could have had gene therapy before you had a son?

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or do you mean that the son can be cured with gene therapy?

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Yeah, no, treating parents at current stage doesn't make any sense

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because you have to modify the cells,

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well, the sperm cells and the egg cells,

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which will actually combine to form an embryo, right?

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So unless you modify those cells, it won't affect the child.

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Sorry about that again.

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And so that would mean you have your genotype test,

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you realize that you and your wife are high risk for a hearing-impaired child,

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and then you do the gene therapy on the egg and sperm.

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Is that right?

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Well, it's never been done yet.

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I think it was done once in China,

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and then the guy got imprisoned when he added his embryos.

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He got three years in Chinese prison

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and became like a worldwide celebrity after that because you cannot do embryo editing like that

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right now but yeah it's probably an option for the future but what like the most common use

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of gene therapy for disease right now is that you get a child born with a certain genetic anomaly

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and it means that a very important protein encoded by that specific gene it's malfunctional right

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so what they do is they deliver a very high dose of virus and this virus

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encapsulates DNA and this DNA gets injected by the virus inside like

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billions or maybe even trillion or so cells in your body their cells get on

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top of like malfunctional DNA a normal DNA like a correct DNA specifically for

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that protein and that DNA gets used by by the body to buy your cells to build

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your body and that's like the development of a child goes a bit more normally

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than without that's corrected DNA present so the original DNA remains it

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intact but it gets anyone on top and that's like the main principle of from

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gene therapy used right now it's complementing your own DNA without any

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sort of modification with additionally so can you do it a young age then is

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that in the case of your son would you do it when they're small or does it yeah

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if you take his gene specifically there is no gene therapy available yet to fix

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problem yeah but if you would do that you would need to do that very early on

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because when the body is already developed and in his case he didn't get

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hair cells so cells responsible to for converting vibration into electrical

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signal which travels through your nerve hearing into the brain so this cells

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didn't develop and when they didn't develop like no matter how you complement

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your DNA like the cells they don't grow constantly and this organs they don't

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form constantly throughout your life so at a later age it would be a hundred

218
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percent ineffective so in his case only implementation or maybe later on

219
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something like injecting specifically the stem cells that would grow those

220
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organs something like that so different approaches for different ages and of

221
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course same with any disease the earlier you act the easier it is to fix so you

222
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said you live in the Netherlands. I assumed you lived in Prospera. No, no, I just travel

223
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there from time to time. So the, so unlimited by the company has employees in Prospera

224
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or do you only go out there when you need to do actual therapies or are there therapies

225
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happening all the time? How does it work? I, you know, I've got no, I've been to Prospera,

226
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but the last time I went was like three years ago and I know a lot's changed since then.

227
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So, yeah, we have a clinical partner there which works with the clients.

228
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So it's a clinic, GARM clinic, which is open six days a week or so.

229
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And they just accept the patients.

230
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They review medical history.

231
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They do blood tests and so on, all what's required to make it a safe and a comfortable process.

232
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So we only need to deliver the therapy to them.

233
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and that's all what's required.

234
00:22:10,676 --> 00:22:14,256
And have you got like a kind of menu of therapies you can get?

235
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I mean, how does it work?

236
00:22:16,316 --> 00:22:18,076
Yeah, in GARM you have a menu,

237
00:22:18,236 --> 00:22:20,916
so they do all sorts of regenerative treatments,

238
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also stem cells and so on.

239
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And we provide them with, for now it's a single therapy called VGF.

240
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And soon we'll have a second one available called folistatin.

241
00:22:33,736 --> 00:22:36,716
So it's a gene responsible for muscle growth.

242
00:22:36,856 --> 00:22:37,696
I've heard that.

243
00:22:37,696 --> 00:22:41,536
I think I heard about that on the Joe Rogan show, I think.

244
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That was one of those things that people used to complain that they can't get hold of,

245
00:22:45,736 --> 00:22:50,716
full of statins, because you're not allowed to get them in America or something.

246
00:22:50,816 --> 00:22:51,276
Is that right?

247
00:22:52,376 --> 00:23:04,256
Well, full of statin, yeah, it's a protein which makes your body weight.

248
00:23:04,256 --> 00:23:12,896
it inhibits another protein called myostatin and myostatin inhibits muscle growth so there is like a

249
00:23:12,896 --> 00:23:21,516
cascade of events there but if you increase the amount of folistatin protein present in your body

250
00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:29,236
you'll basically get more muscle mass and the other one fjf vjf what's that do to you yeah

251
00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:38,176
that protein is released to build new blood vessels and capillaries locally

252
00:23:38,176 --> 00:23:45,876
so for example when you get injured the body needs to repair that injury and

253
00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:52,076
this protein is secreted to like build basically roads to that place to repair

254
00:23:52,076 --> 00:24:00,636
it to make it more efficient also as a response to exercise or I think also as a response to

255
00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:09,036
low cone low content of oxygen or something like that so you get this new capillaries formed

256
00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:16,156
for example with within your muscle to increase blood supply but the bad thing is that with age

257
00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:23,356
this adaptive mechanism it becomes less effective so all people like no matter how they exercise it

258
00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:30,316
it's harder for them to build new vessels and the blood supply drops to all organs like to your skin

259
00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:37,196
to your hair to your brain to your muscle and so on so it's a very important process that declines

260
00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:45,356
with age i can i can attest to that i think 54 i don't think as fast i definitely don't put on

261
00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:54,016
muscle as quick as I could when I was a kid and I and I put on weight very easily. So like what's the connection between then this and

262
00:24:55,256 --> 00:25:10,634
longevity because the longevity world is a is quite a thing now isn it and and i think the the heart is this idea right that um that age is possibly something that we shouldn necessarily

263
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:19,234
accept as as a as fact aging sorry is that are you are you of the same sort of like um belief

264
00:25:19,234 --> 00:25:29,474
Yeah, indeed. So we think that people should have the capacity to meaningfully affect the

265
00:25:29,474 --> 00:25:35,994
process of aging because like no matter how much you exercise, how well you eat, what

266
00:25:35,994 --> 00:25:42,514
kind of drugs you take right now, you will still become old, eventually demented or incapable

267
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to stand up from your bed or to go to shopping or to have your grandson pick up your grandson

268
00:25:52,934 --> 00:25:59,174
or whatever you want to do at that age and no ski or walk around so you you'll become deprived of

269
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all those capabilities and eventually you'll just die even though you might not manifest any kind of

270
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diseases

271
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like you might not die from cancer

272
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but

273
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and you might be like

274
00:26:18,014 --> 00:26:20,014
doctors will say that you're

275
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in good health right now like you're 80 years

276
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old and they'll say like nothing we can do

277
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you're good

278
00:26:25,294 --> 00:26:28,394
but nobody would be surprised

279
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if the next day something happens

280
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I know like

281
00:26:30,874 --> 00:26:34,634
one of the arteries

282
00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:36,114
in your brain

283
00:26:36,114 --> 00:26:44,134
are just bobs and that's it and am i am i right to assume that aging is an evolutionary adaptation

284
00:26:44,134 --> 00:26:52,754
to keep genotypes transforming like is it presumably i'm i'm guessing that because it

285
00:26:52,754 --> 00:26:58,954
makes sense because we're uh we're um um there's there's always a male and a female to create

286
00:26:58,954 --> 00:27:05,194
something new then that's the mixing of genes and the more they mix the the better in a way because

287
00:27:05,194 --> 00:27:12,174
then the selection is allowed to occur. So aging is an important, death especially, is an important

288
00:27:12,174 --> 00:27:17,994
part of evolution in its natural state, not necessarily in a state where you have more

289
00:27:17,994 --> 00:27:24,374
control over things. Like we're entering that age now, obviously, where evolution is too slow for

290
00:27:24,374 --> 00:27:30,554
what the human mind wants, which is I think why everyone's so scared of it, because we all know

291
00:27:30,554 --> 00:27:35,234
that human minds aren't exactly reliable thinking sometimes

292
00:27:35,234 --> 00:27:36,734
and they come up with terrible ideas.

293
00:27:36,954 --> 00:27:39,054
But do you think there's any...

294
00:27:39,054 --> 00:27:40,974
So first of all, is that true?

295
00:27:40,974 --> 00:27:45,394
Is death and aging an important part of life?

296
00:27:45,894 --> 00:27:51,334
And if so, what effect will it have if we start aging further?

297
00:27:53,114 --> 00:27:56,974
Yeah, so first of all, yeah, that's one of the theories

298
00:27:56,974 --> 00:28:03,374
that aging is like an adaptive process developed during evolution but i think it's it's not the only

299
00:28:03,374 --> 00:28:08,574
approach to that so it could be just you know a side effect that basically evolution didn't care

300
00:28:08,574 --> 00:28:16,574
much about what happens after your reproductive age is over uh and for example if you take primates

301
00:28:17,774 --> 00:28:24,494
they're like grandparents they play an important role in uh helping parents and that's what we also

302
00:28:24,494 --> 00:28:29,774
experience as primates that is great to have grandparents around when you have

303
00:28:29,774 --> 00:28:36,734
kids growing up right so like evolution didn't want to kill us too fast that's

304
00:28:36,734 --> 00:28:44,314
for sure and another argument against that would be that there are species that

305
00:28:44,314 --> 00:28:51,014
survived well to this day that don't experience aging as we do so such as

306
00:28:51,014 --> 00:28:59,334
as snaked mole rats uh certain um types of um turtles that we cannot even tell like how old are

307
00:28:59,334 --> 00:29:07,654
they and certain whales sharks trees hey do you include things like that also like i think um

308
00:29:07,654 --> 00:29:16,734
a form of i think some some organisms like um not fungus what are they called they live underground

309
00:29:16,734 --> 00:29:21,374
and they're a network of, you know, they live in association with trees.

310
00:29:21,474 --> 00:29:24,274
They can live for tens of thousands of years, can't they?

311
00:29:25,114 --> 00:29:28,614
Well, if you take trees, it's very easy to say how old the tree is.

312
00:29:28,694 --> 00:29:28,934
Yes.

313
00:29:29,234 --> 00:29:35,034
So you could say that the tree does age and then you get the super old trees

314
00:29:35,034 --> 00:29:38,994
where, you know, the inside degrades and only the outside remains.

315
00:29:38,994 --> 00:29:45,474
So I won't say that for trees, but, and also trees are, you know,

316
00:29:45,474 --> 00:29:52,054
very distantly related to humans and to most of humans at least and if you take uh naked mole

317
00:29:52,054 --> 00:29:58,394
rats so those are mammals so they're quite close to us did you say naked mole rats yeah yeah i know

318
00:29:58,394 --> 00:30:05,034
i know that species yeah and what they don't tell me about that what how how old how old are they

319
00:30:05,034 --> 00:30:11,934
live to then well i think they at least make it to their 20s or maybe even 30s but i don't think

320
00:30:11,934 --> 00:30:18,074
it's established yet because to actually find this out you need to isolate them protect them

321
00:30:18,074 --> 00:30:23,514
from all sorts of environmental damage from killing each other from predators and so on

322
00:30:23,514 --> 00:30:30,134
and that's really hard complicated and expensive to make this experiment i think people are trying

323
00:30:30,134 --> 00:30:37,034
that but i didn't yet see conclusion of how old they can actually get but is the theory that they

324
00:30:37,034 --> 00:30:44,894
all die of um something like accidents uh trauma whatever they don't die of old is that right

325
00:30:44,894 --> 00:30:51,514
naked mole rats don't die of old age that's bizarre yeah i think they have like extremely

326
00:30:51,514 --> 00:30:59,614
efficient uh repair mechanisms for dna so uh they kind of are able to maintain themselves and

327
00:30:59,614 --> 00:31:07,014
in good shape throughout the years and if you take like a two-year-old uh guy and then a 20-year-old

328
00:31:07,014 --> 00:31:09,854
and it would be extremely hard to tell the difference.

329
00:31:10,094 --> 00:31:12,374
And for mice, it would be evident.

330
00:31:12,594 --> 00:31:13,974
And mice live just a few hours,

331
00:31:14,074 --> 00:31:17,754
and they're very similar in how they even look like

332
00:31:17,754 --> 00:31:20,754
in terms of DNA also.

333
00:31:21,394 --> 00:31:24,374
But still, there are a few important distinctions

334
00:31:24,374 --> 00:31:29,714
in naked mole rats that allow them to escape aging somehow.

335
00:31:29,934 --> 00:31:31,994
And that's also an important line of research

336
00:31:31,994 --> 00:31:36,134
to see what we can learn from them to translate that to humans.

337
00:31:36,134 --> 00:31:39,514
What were the other ones you said that seem to defy aging?

338
00:31:39,674 --> 00:31:41,474
Which other sort of organisms?

339
00:31:42,134 --> 00:31:46,774
Well, I would say turtles because we know that they can live at least 150.

340
00:31:47,554 --> 00:31:51,634
But, you know, they're reptiles, so they're quite different from us.

341
00:31:51,754 --> 00:31:55,374
Also, some types of sharks, whales, then also tiny organisms,

342
00:31:56,434 --> 00:32:00,474
like those amoebas, I think.

343
00:32:01,534 --> 00:32:03,894
And, yeah, a few others.

344
00:32:03,894 --> 00:32:10,874
So there is a list of organisms we should pay attention to and study what we can learn from them.

345
00:32:11,814 --> 00:32:21,774
So, all right, then, if we start messing around with our average age, which, I mean, we've already messed around with it, really, because it used to be about 35, didn't it?

346
00:32:22,454 --> 00:32:29,714
And then with the industrial age, didn't we put the average age of a human dying up to about 70, 80 now?

347
00:32:29,714 --> 00:32:37,254
we're at 80 so even without adapting the human genome we're we're already by eating well by being

348
00:32:37,254 --> 00:32:44,534
safer by not dying in childbirth all these things that are making our lives better so what's it

349
00:32:44,534 --> 00:32:52,574
going to do if we like first of all what do you imagine in in recent the recent in the near future

350
00:32:52,574 --> 00:32:59,054
Let's say in an interesting way, how could we expect to, how old could we expect to live

351
00:32:59,054 --> 00:33:04,094
to in, you know, 40 or 50 years then, according to you, of what you know?

352
00:33:04,094 --> 00:33:06,094
In 40 or 50 years?

353
00:33:06,094 --> 00:33:07,094
Yeah.

354
00:33:07,094 --> 00:33:08,754
Well, you know it.

355
00:33:08,754 --> 00:33:13,854
I'm trying to think whether or not I've got enough time left to get on board so that I

356
00:33:13,854 --> 00:33:14,854
can live a bit longer.

357
00:33:14,854 --> 00:33:15,854
I'm 54.

358
00:33:15,854 --> 00:33:19,934
So if I was going to live to 90, I got 36.

359
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:23,912
54, 60, 70, yeah, I've got 36 years.

360
00:33:24,352 --> 00:33:29,092
I think you have pretty good chances of not dying at all

361
00:33:29,092 --> 00:33:30,432
if you keep yourself in shape.

362
00:33:31,032 --> 00:33:33,112
If that's what you could fancy, I mean.

363
00:33:34,092 --> 00:33:35,072
Do I want to not die then?

364
00:33:35,072 --> 00:33:36,232
Eventually it would be up to you, yeah.

365
00:33:36,292 --> 00:33:37,452
Do I want to not die?

366
00:33:38,152 --> 00:33:39,032
Yeah, you tell me.

367
00:33:39,252 --> 00:33:42,452
I mean, what's the philosophical implications with that

368
00:33:42,452 --> 00:33:43,332
are quite extreme.

369
00:33:44,192 --> 00:33:46,872
I'm thinking, number one,

370
00:33:46,872 --> 00:33:50,852
do I want to see my own children as 90-year-old people?

371
00:33:50,852 --> 00:33:52,612
That would be bizarre in its own right.

372
00:33:53,792 --> 00:33:54,192
Why?

373
00:33:55,872 --> 00:33:56,312
Why?

374
00:33:56,472 --> 00:34:01,032
Just because I've never imagined seeing them like that.

375
00:34:01,292 --> 00:34:02,212
But, yeah, you're right.

376
00:34:02,272 --> 00:34:03,592
I would probably get used to it.

377
00:34:04,092 --> 00:34:06,952
But they will look like you look right now, right?

378
00:34:06,952 --> 00:34:09,012
Because they will be functionally younger.

379
00:34:09,012 --> 00:34:10,172
Oh, you don't age.

380
00:34:10,412 --> 00:34:10,712
Oh, right.

381
00:34:10,812 --> 00:34:13,292
So I won't start looking old.

382
00:34:13,892 --> 00:34:14,852
Yeah, that's the point.

383
00:34:15,172 --> 00:34:16,212
Will I get stuck like this,

384
00:34:16,212 --> 00:34:17,232
or will I get better?

385
00:34:17,912 --> 00:34:21,112
Well, eventually we hope that you might get better.

386
00:34:21,352 --> 00:34:23,232
I mean, but it's of course harder to achieve.

387
00:34:23,472 --> 00:34:27,392
So it's good for now to preserve yourself in good shape, you know.

388
00:34:27,892 --> 00:34:30,372
So there might be an age I can aim for.

389
00:34:30,992 --> 00:34:31,972
I mean, it'd be great to be...

390
00:34:32,832 --> 00:34:35,332
Yeah, I enjoyed my 30s.

391
00:34:35,332 --> 00:34:38,172
I was in my prime in my 30s.

392
00:34:38,652 --> 00:34:40,732
Mentally, physically, everything, you know.

393
00:34:41,452 --> 00:34:43,672
It'd be nice to go back to that and then just stop.

394
00:34:43,752 --> 00:34:45,132
But then again, would it?

395
00:34:46,212 --> 00:34:51,192
I don't know. I don't know whether my brain's designed to live for a very long time. I mean,

396
00:34:51,292 --> 00:34:58,392
is it, I think you do hear many stories of people in their old age, especially 90 year old people

397
00:34:58,392 --> 00:35:05,492
saying, you know, being satisfied that they've lived a long and good life. Right. Well, it's a

398
00:35:05,492 --> 00:35:14,492
way to kind of calm yourself down. And, you know, when you're 90, like your body, it adapts all the

399
00:35:14,492 --> 00:35:19,352
time. So kind of you get older and if you take yourself in the 30s and yourself in the 50s,

400
00:35:19,352 --> 00:35:22,932
you can compare that you're not in the same shape, you got worse. But at the same time,

401
00:35:22,972 --> 00:35:27,392
you don't feel terrible every day you get up like, oh, I'm 55, goddammit.

402
00:35:27,572 --> 00:35:28,972
No, but I've got a bad back.

403
00:35:29,792 --> 00:35:34,752
Yeah, stuff like that starts reminding you that you're actually old. But at the same time,

404
00:35:34,752 --> 00:35:41,112
the brain adapts all those things and kind of accommodates the fact that we got older.

405
00:35:41,112 --> 00:35:44,112
and you accept more and more and more of that,

406
00:35:44,212 --> 00:35:45,592
more and more of that damage.

407
00:35:46,412 --> 00:35:50,372
And eventually, you know, like all those things,

408
00:35:50,512 --> 00:35:54,292
like pain in the back and all those limitations that you acquire,

409
00:35:54,292 --> 00:35:57,452
I think you start getting a thought that, you know,

410
00:35:57,592 --> 00:35:59,712
death at a certain point would be,

411
00:36:00,272 --> 00:36:02,592
you would kind of not resist it that much

412
00:36:02,592 --> 00:36:08,552
because if you, like, take a bird's eye view,

413
00:36:08,552 --> 00:36:13,112
you're way worse now than you used to be before.

414
00:36:13,772 --> 00:36:15,992
And I think that's what the people are afraid of,

415
00:36:15,992 --> 00:36:17,252
of becoming old.

416
00:36:17,472 --> 00:36:19,972
They see their parents debilitated,

417
00:36:20,252 --> 00:36:23,052
demented and not being able to get out of bed

418
00:36:23,052 --> 00:36:26,572
on a wheelchair and like spending half of their life

419
00:36:26,572 --> 00:36:30,552
in a hospital and constant medical exams

420
00:36:30,552 --> 00:36:32,472
or whatever in a constant death

421
00:36:32,472 --> 00:36:34,792
that something else will just snap

422
00:36:34,792 --> 00:36:37,592
or you will fall and won't be able to get up.

423
00:36:37,592 --> 00:36:46,812
and that's what people are afraid of because as long as you're functioning okay like why die you

424
00:36:46,812 --> 00:36:52,892
just continue living if you feel good in the present day like next day is going to be good as

425
00:36:52,892 --> 00:36:58,552
well it is one of the cruelest in my opinion anyway one of the cruelest things about life

426
00:36:58,552 --> 00:37:07,572
is old age because you got it coming and you can spend your life doing being incredible doing

427
00:37:07,572 --> 00:37:16,472
inspirational things but in the end you're going to die either in pain or very helplessly and that

428
00:37:16,472 --> 00:37:21,632
is cruel because you've gone through you've known like when you're first born sure you're helpless

429
00:37:21,632 --> 00:37:27,972
but then you learn to to survive and then you thrive and then you go back to being helpless

430
00:37:27,972 --> 00:37:33,432
again and that's that seems cruel that's a cruel ending yeah you should be able to go out with a

431
00:37:33,432 --> 00:37:37,452
bang shouldn't you you should be able to go out with but do you think people will choose to die

432
00:37:37,452 --> 00:37:44,292
then if if we can live if we can live forever are people going to choose to die i'm sure some people

433
00:37:44,292 --> 00:37:50,172
will i mean there's a lot of ideology behind that a lot of culture so like for the past

434
00:37:50,172 --> 00:37:56,952
5 000 years so we'll be we've been accumulating stories about death explaining death thinking

435
00:37:56,952 --> 00:38:03,252
about immortality about what comes next making mummies making all sorts of stories burial

436
00:38:03,252 --> 00:38:07,572
customs, flowers, coffins, gravestones.

437
00:38:08,372 --> 00:38:14,532
We accumulated such a huge cultural layer around death.

438
00:38:15,072 --> 00:38:16,652
It's immense.

439
00:38:17,432 --> 00:38:23,152
Like all those movies where somebody sacrifices himself for the good,

440
00:38:23,152 --> 00:38:26,792
when somebody has such a great life and then dies,

441
00:38:26,992 --> 00:38:29,332
so relieved, surrounded by the loving people.

442
00:38:29,332 --> 00:38:36,192
like all this we kind of try to you know people think about that all the time you cannot you cannot

443
00:38:36,192 --> 00:38:43,932
exclude death and uh the the natural reaction is try to find something positive about thing as long

444
00:38:43,932 --> 00:38:50,332
as there is nothing you can do and like for the past uh millennia there was literally nothing we

445
00:38:50,332 --> 00:38:55,292
can do about this so that's why people were focusing on making mommy mummies and like focusing

446
00:38:55,292 --> 00:39:00,812
on the stuff that's beyond where they can also like take a look and right now we see that we have

447
00:39:00,812 --> 00:39:08,092
all those biotechnological means we kind of have a lot of pieces of that puzzle we don't have the

448
00:39:08,092 --> 00:39:14,492
puzzle assembled yet and we need to do like probably tens of years more of research but we see uh that

449
00:39:14,492 --> 00:39:21,772
we can get there that if we uh fix that process that process that process and maybe uh 50 more

450
00:39:21,772 --> 00:39:30,172
processes then we might have a meaningful effect on aging and yeah you say that there is a lot of

451
00:39:30,172 --> 00:39:36,572
like attention to that field right now but if you take funding and if you take especially research

452
00:39:36,572 --> 00:39:43,292
in humans like it's almost nothing because uh you know 40 years ago people were telling like

453
00:39:43,292 --> 00:39:49,932
this transhumanists and so on that all we're gonna live forever in 20 years and they're telling

454
00:39:49,932 --> 00:39:57,452
the same thing right now we're gonna live forever in 20 years but uh i i don't see much change

455
00:39:58,652 --> 00:40:06,732
you know in the next uh 20 years unless we find frameworks how to accelerate clinical trials in

456
00:40:06,732 --> 00:40:14,172
humans not in mice not in worms or flies or whatever but in humans and i don't think there

457
00:40:14,172 --> 00:40:20,392
There was such good hope for the future before Prospera appeared,

458
00:40:20,752 --> 00:40:29,912
where we really see how those trials can be achieved more or less right now,

459
00:40:29,952 --> 00:40:32,432
at least with what we have developed already.

460
00:40:33,572 --> 00:40:34,552
It's amazing.

461
00:40:35,552 --> 00:40:42,212
You're a biomedical engineer, and you reckon that in my lifetime,

462
00:40:42,732 --> 00:40:43,772
I could live forever.

463
00:40:44,172 --> 00:40:45,592
Is that fair to say?

464
00:40:46,092 --> 00:40:46,572
Yeah, yeah.

465
00:40:47,172 --> 00:40:48,352
It's fair to say.

466
00:40:48,872 --> 00:40:56,552
I think your life expectancy right now, even without any progress, is close to 100 years.

467
00:40:56,712 --> 00:40:59,032
And that gives us time, a lot of time.

468
00:40:59,492 --> 00:41:00,712
Jesus, I better get on it.

469
00:41:01,232 --> 00:41:03,292
What's your spirituality, by the way?

470
00:41:03,292 --> 00:41:05,412
Do you have a spirituality?

471
00:41:05,792 --> 00:41:07,752
How does that fit into all this?

472
00:41:08,392 --> 00:41:13,792
Do you have any beliefs about what would happen after death if you did die?

473
00:41:14,172 --> 00:41:25,752
Well, I'm Christian. I was baptized. I didn't subscribe to that, but my parents did that to me. I don't mind.

474
00:41:27,572 --> 00:41:49,310
I always thought that religion is kind of contrary to what we do So religious people they eventually all want to die and transition to the next world of like an eternal uh happiness white clothes and sunshine and whatever there is there

475
00:41:50,110 --> 00:41:58,830
uh but um you know i think some um sort of interpretations of bible especially they can be

476
00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:07,870
aligned with unlimited life extension on earth because uh like certain parts of the bible

477
00:42:07,870 --> 00:42:14,550
a hint that maybe we should build like a garden of eden here on earth so like god punished us

478
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:23,170
with mortality um a long time ago right then we went all those you know technological progress

479
00:42:23,170 --> 00:42:28,930
with god's help we researched like how he built this world how he you know uh all the dna all

480
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:34,690
the code he put into us all the like the evolution with we've gone through and now we've come to a

481
00:42:34,690 --> 00:42:42,770
point where we can use all those tools that religious people would say he gave us to actually

482
00:42:42,770 --> 00:42:53,890
affect this curse he bestowed on us and build an immortal society like a paradise on earth.

483
00:42:55,010 --> 00:43:02,130
I think the Bible allows for those kind of interpretations. Not all religious teachings

484
00:43:02,130 --> 00:43:09,570
do, so some are way more strict and don't allow that kind of freedom of thinking in terms of

485
00:43:09,570 --> 00:43:15,170
the mortality i i want i'm what i wondered if you'd ever had a spiritual experience that made you

486
00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:23,810
think or believe or sense that after death something important was happening so if you

487
00:43:23,810 --> 00:43:30,850
extend your life you're basically you know you're you're stopping a natural process happening i've

488
00:43:30,850 --> 00:43:38,130
recounted this story before on on this podcast but i had a death experience once and um not to put a

489
00:43:38,130 --> 00:43:47,870
But long and short of it, it was, and you could, I won't, I'll be honest, looking back, I could say this was just a bunch of neurons firing in my head.

490
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:49,150
And it's all a lie.

491
00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:51,870
But to me, it seems really real.

492
00:43:51,970 --> 00:43:52,470
I was ill.

493
00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:53,630
I wasn't that ill.

494
00:43:53,890 --> 00:43:58,490
I was lying on a bed and the process of death started and I recognized it.

495
00:43:59,550 --> 00:44:01,210
That's the only way I can describe it.

496
00:44:01,250 --> 00:44:03,210
It was a familiar process.

497
00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:06,190
It was like a moving towards something.

498
00:44:06,190 --> 00:44:09,490
and I was lying on the bed and I thought, oh shit, I'm dying.

499
00:44:10,590 --> 00:44:12,050
You know, I recognised this.

500
00:44:12,110 --> 00:44:14,790
It wasn't scary, it wasn't anything, it was just very familiar.

501
00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:18,510
And to cut a long story short, I didn't die

502
00:44:18,510 --> 00:44:22,990
and it has a lot to do with me thinking how absurd what was happening was.

503
00:44:23,450 --> 00:44:25,710
I kind of stopped it happening.

504
00:44:25,830 --> 00:44:28,710
I wasn't dying because of something that was happening to my body,

505
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:29,650
although I was sick.

506
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:31,630
I wasn't sick enough to be dying.

507
00:44:31,630 --> 00:44:38,390
but um but the the two takeaways that i had from this experience which at the time like i wasn't

508
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:44,230
thinking about this i just knew this is the dying process number one it was very familiar

509
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:50,590
you know i i recognized it immediately it wasn't scary it wasn't anything and number two is it was

510
00:44:50,590 --> 00:44:58,130
a birth a death and a birth are the same thing so a death is a birth into something and a birth

511
00:44:58,130 --> 00:45:00,610
is a birth out of something else, if you see what I mean.

512
00:45:00,730 --> 00:45:02,150
They're the same process.

513
00:45:03,110 --> 00:45:06,890
And like I say, I can't back this up with any scientific data or anything.

514
00:45:07,070 --> 00:45:08,730
And it was a number of years ago now.

515
00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:09,750
It was almost 20 years ago.

516
00:45:09,890 --> 00:45:14,990
But because I spoke about it at the time and I recounted it in my memory,

517
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:18,890
it's become part of, you know, something.

518
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:20,170
I don't know what.

519
00:45:20,170 --> 00:45:25,370
But I think partly, number one, I'm not really afraid of dying, that sense.

520
00:45:25,450 --> 00:45:27,150
I'm afraid of the consequences of dying.

521
00:45:27,150 --> 00:45:29,950
I don't want to leave my children for example

522
00:45:29,950 --> 00:45:32,050
I also don't want to die in pain

523
00:45:32,050 --> 00:45:33,490
but I know that's quite likely

524
00:45:33,490 --> 00:45:35,670
unfortunately most people kind of

525
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:37,830
do die with some form of pain unless they

526
00:45:37,830 --> 00:45:39,910
take you know

527
00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:41,490
like painkillers but

528
00:45:41,490 --> 00:45:44,010
I just wondered if you'd ever had an experience

529
00:45:44,010 --> 00:45:45,730
which made you think

530
00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:47,930
that prolonging

531
00:45:47,930 --> 00:45:49,730
life

532
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:51,850
beyond a certain point might

533
00:45:51,850 --> 00:45:53,930
be counterproductive because there's something

534
00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:55,910
else if you see what I mean not that we're all

535
00:45:55,910 --> 00:46:02,270
going to heaven because i quite like that idea that you've just posited that um because i think

536
00:46:02,270 --> 00:46:09,910
there's truth in it that heaven is here you know like the idea of heaven for me if i think about it

537
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:15,950
in the religious sense is this is heaven like i'm super happy i love doing what i'm doing i enjoy

538
00:46:15,950 --> 00:46:20,310
conversations i you know i wouldn't be what are we doing anywhere else if i went to heaven

539
00:46:20,310 --> 00:46:26,430
it'd be the same as this you know so I'm already here it's for want of a better expression and also

540
00:46:26,430 --> 00:46:33,710
the thing I've always thought about heaven is um it seems strange a strange concept because heaven's

541
00:46:33,710 --> 00:46:41,690
like forever you know it's like and I quite like the ups and downs of life do you know what I mean

542
00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:46,230
like I enjoy I know when you're when you're having strife and trouble and that it's not nice

543
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:53,150
it's great but when you are like this now i'm feeling great the only reason i know it is because

544
00:46:53,150 --> 00:46:58,550
a few years ago i was having a terrible time and the thought of just being in heaven this place

545
00:46:58,550 --> 00:47:03,350
where everything is beautiful it seems really boring in fact it seems like what forever just

546
00:47:03,350 --> 00:47:09,770
like this you know so i'm i'm i'm with you on that that earlier one that heaven is already here

547
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:16,430
heaven is a is a manifestation of of whatever you want i don't think you need to wait for for to die

548
00:47:16,430 --> 00:47:21,610
to get it you can get it here now if you really want but then maybe i'm underselling myself but

549
00:47:21,610 --> 00:47:27,490
yeah back to the thing do you think that there could be a negative to prolonging your life too

550
00:47:27,490 --> 00:47:38,270
long no let's leave it at that but so yeah a lot of points there so i think it can make up for like

551
00:47:38,270 --> 00:47:43,450
three podcasts at least the first one was your near-death experience was it

552
00:47:43,450 --> 00:47:51,110
somewhere near sleep time or it was no i was just very ill um it wasn't it wasn't something that was

553
00:47:51,110 --> 00:47:57,130
life-threatening but i was lying on my bed at my my mother's house uh just lying there because you

554
00:47:57,130 --> 00:48:04,090
know i was too weak to get up um the so and you know like i say i can't prove any of this all i

555
00:48:04,090 --> 00:48:09,190
know is because I wasn't expecting anything to happen I was just lying on my bed because I was

556
00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:16,390
weak the process started and as I did it was it's like I and I knew what it was I had I knew oh my

557
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:21,650
god you know it was very very familiar and it was the process of dying that's the only way I can

558
00:48:21,650 --> 00:48:27,670
describe it it would be like when when a woman gives birth for the first time I mean I can't

559
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:34,070
you know you don't want giving birth feels like do you but when it happens it happens and you know

560
00:48:34,070 --> 00:48:40,890
what's happening because it's happening but it's it's almost involuntary you know like or or or

561
00:48:40,890 --> 00:48:46,310
love love you know the first time you when you've never if you think you've never fallen in love

562
00:48:46,310 --> 00:48:50,230
with someone and then you do fall in love with someone or all the different facets of love

563
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:57,050
they're all quite familiar they you can you can label them as something without you know the

564
00:48:57,050 --> 00:49:03,550
difference between anger and love for example without someone having to tell you what what

565
00:49:03,550 --> 00:49:09,510
the difference is and in my case with the the the the process of dying was very familiar to me

566
00:49:09,510 --> 00:49:16,030
and it was a it was also a birth the birth and death process are the same they're just a movement

567
00:49:16,030 --> 00:49:22,450
between places if you see what i mean if it was the process of dying why didn't you die

568
00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:28,590
do you want to hear the funny side that i i was lying i started dying and i started going with it

569
00:49:28,590 --> 00:49:45,710
And then it occurred to me, my brain went, you can't die. Literally, your mother is downstairs cooking food. She's going to come up here. There's going to be a dead kid on the bed. This is the most absurd thing. And it brought me back to reality. That's the truth of it.

570
00:49:45,710 --> 00:49:51,670
So I know it all sounds a little bit far-fetched, but I have no other way of explaining this.

571
00:49:51,670 --> 00:50:06,168
It was real and I don even think about it much If it comes up in conversation I gladly talk about it But for a long time it had quite a profound effect on me because I stopped being scared of death

572
00:50:07,448 --> 00:50:11,468
Not that I haven't really thought about it, but since I have, I'm not scared of dying.

573
00:50:11,828 --> 00:50:19,628
However, since I have children, there's this new layer now because I would hate to leave them as children.

574
00:50:19,628 --> 00:50:22,148
Maybe as adults, it would be easier, but as children.

575
00:50:22,148 --> 00:50:25,208
So there's this, you know, I don't want to die now.

576
00:50:25,788 --> 00:50:31,408
Not because I fear of dying, but I don't want to leave my children because they need me, you know.

577
00:50:31,988 --> 00:50:42,288
But yeah, that's the absurd part is I, my brain literally pulled me back because it just seemed absurd.

578
00:50:42,368 --> 00:50:44,408
Because when it started happening, I went, oh, I'm dying.

579
00:50:44,528 --> 00:50:48,768
And then I went, you know, like a few seconds later, it was like, what the fuck are you doing?

580
00:50:48,768 --> 00:50:51,508
Don't die. You're like 23.

581
00:50:52,148 --> 00:50:57,288
your mum's downstairs you're this you're that you know and it it stopped it happening so i don't

582
00:50:57,288 --> 00:51:04,088
know why what when i don't know why it happened but certainly i knew it was death that's all i can

583
00:51:04,088 --> 00:51:10,548
say you know uh have you heard about this uh phenomena when uh you know you have um sort of

584
00:51:10,548 --> 00:51:17,968
dreams but uh lucid dreams lucid dreaming yes have you explored that i've i have had plenty of lucid

585
00:51:17,968 --> 00:51:22,948
dreams yeah I've had a lot of lucid dreams in fact I know that experience

586
00:51:22,948 --> 00:51:30,508
very well but this wasn't this was different this was not that because for

587
00:51:30,508 --> 00:51:36,688
me lucid dreams happen at the point of sleep and I was I wasn't I'm not

588
00:51:36,688 --> 00:51:40,768
necessarily I mean there are people who well at least they claim that they do

589
00:51:40,768 --> 00:51:45,688
some sort of training and you can put yourself into that kind of trance lucid

590
00:51:45,688 --> 00:51:52,468
dreaming also while awake usually you have to lie down uh or something but do sort of manipulations

591
00:51:52,468 --> 00:51:59,828
like meditations or whatever and uh get into that uh state so but let me explain it another way then

592
00:51:59,828 --> 00:52:07,408
it could have been a lucid dream i have no way of knowing right the but the point is if i lucidly

593
00:52:07,408 --> 00:52:16,588
dreamt about tasting a an apple right i'm still tasting an apple if you see what i mean what the

594
00:52:16,588 --> 00:52:22,988
the overarching experience that i had was i am dying and there was no reason to think that there

595
00:52:22,988 --> 00:52:30,788
was no i i the the only reason that i thought it was because i recognized it it regardless if it

596
00:52:30,788 --> 00:52:36,188
was a lucid dream it could have been a lucid dream but i was still recognizing the experience

597
00:52:36,188 --> 00:52:39,968
of dying if you see if you see what i mean like i would have done if i'd have ate an apple in a

598
00:52:39,968 --> 00:52:44,008
lucid dream i would have gone oh that tastes like an apple because i know what an apple tastes like

599
00:52:44,008 --> 00:52:52,208
well uh well imagine you see an apple and your brain is like oh an apple i'll go take a bite of

600
00:52:52,208 --> 00:52:57,588
that apple then you bite it and you realize it's a fake apple made of wax and you're like damn yeah

601
00:52:57,588 --> 00:53:03,928
so i mean your brain is really good at fooling yourself as well so it kind of just maps a certain

602
00:53:03,928 --> 00:53:10,708
experience to something that you already experienced before because that's that's the

603
00:53:10,708 --> 00:53:15,948
only way it can work right it cannot map it to something you never experienced because

604
00:53:15,948 --> 00:53:20,668
you probably don't know how it feels like well that would assume then that i've experienced

605
00:53:20,668 --> 00:53:25,608
dying before which i think that was my that was my understanding from it the only reason i

606
00:53:25,608 --> 00:53:30,668
recognized it is because it was a familiar thing and and whatever i don't know what that means that

607
00:53:30,668 --> 00:53:34,568
could that could mean a lot of things but it certainly meant that at least when i was born

608
00:53:34,568 --> 00:53:40,308
i was dying from something if you see what i mean so to be born was a death from something to die

609
00:53:40,308 --> 00:53:46,968
was a birth into something new that's that was that's my takeaway and like god knows what it

610
00:53:46,968 --> 00:53:54,228
means i i don't know but um but i mean it's not even necessarily important here what what what is

611
00:53:54,228 --> 00:54:01,788
important is whether or not um like whether or not we should stay forever if you see what i mean

612
00:54:01,788 --> 00:54:06,788
like you know just getting back to a question about near-death experience i've had a similar

613
00:54:06,788 --> 00:54:13,248
thing uh at the time that i you know tried to practice lucid dreaming a bit and got interested

614
00:54:13,248 --> 00:54:19,408
in that phenomena and uh it was it happened well somewhere you know after waking up or before

615
00:54:19,408 --> 00:54:25,168
falling to sleep when i also had a feeling of like being sucked in a black hole or something like that

616
00:54:25,168 --> 00:54:32,608
and i became like insanely terrified and like i shook it shook it off and just to i know uh flew

617
00:54:32,608 --> 00:54:38,768
out of bed or something so i was like a sense of terror was immense and like you're really falling

618
00:54:38,768 --> 00:54:45,248
into a black hole and i didn't connect that to dying i connected that to some sort of weird lucid

619
00:54:45,248 --> 00:54:51,388
dream experience but yeah it was terrifying i thought maybe i could have connected uh that to

620
00:54:51,388 --> 00:54:57,728
diane if my you know at that time i was you know deeply into longevity or something like that maybe

621
00:54:57,728 --> 00:55:03,768
maybe i would have made this connection what but what what did you decide like what did you decide

622
00:55:03,768 --> 00:55:12,828
a lucid dream was after that experience well i thought it was like a sort of transition into a

623
00:55:12,828 --> 00:55:19,468
lucid dream and maybe some sort of you know sleep paralysis also you know when you wake up and you

624
00:55:19,468 --> 00:55:25,988
cannot move on top of that something like that so it didn't feel nice yeah i felt terrified and

625
00:55:25,988 --> 00:55:34,808
i think kind of um very much lowered my enthusiasm towards lucid dreaming and uh that's like the only

626
00:55:34,808 --> 00:55:40,348
conclusion i made after that but what do you think lucid dreaming is that's what i mean like what is

627
00:55:40,348 --> 00:55:48,408
it? Well, it's a certain state of mind. I think that it is like a scientifically established

628
00:55:48,408 --> 00:55:53,408
phenomenon because people did really, you know, track the eyeballs of participants who

629
00:55:53,408 --> 00:55:58,408
experienced lucid dreaming. And they said they can't enter that state. So they answered and

630
00:55:58,408 --> 00:56:05,388
they literally tracked their eyeballs. And they were supposed, I think, to do certain tasks while

631
00:56:05,388 --> 00:56:13,048
in lucid dreams so do like specific movements to um convince the researchers that they are

632
00:56:13,048 --> 00:56:20,288
controlling their eyeballs while they're in dream state and at the same time time you do an ecg of

633
00:56:20,288 --> 00:56:27,868
brain waves and you really see that the person is in rapid eye movement so in dream phase of sleep

634
00:56:27,868 --> 00:56:34,148
and so i think it's an established phenomenon i don't know if it's of any use uh i don't know

635
00:56:34,148 --> 00:56:42,908
what it means uh why is it there like no idea uh but uh my my lucid dreaming experience is quite

636
00:56:42,908 --> 00:56:48,048
bizarre and i haven't this i haven't done this for ages but i used to be able to see through my eyes

637
00:56:48,048 --> 00:56:54,988
with my eyes shut in lucid dreams so when i entered a lucid dream state i could see around me

638
00:56:54,988 --> 00:56:57,728
even though i was lying there with my eyes shut

639
00:56:57,728 --> 00:57:04,148
yeah they should have put some some things on my brain to see what was going on because

640
00:57:04,148 --> 00:57:08,428
once again could be all kinds of stuff could be my recollection of what i was seeing but

641
00:57:08,428 --> 00:57:14,428
i'd had experiences where i saw things that were happening around me when my eyes were shut but

642
00:57:14,428 --> 00:57:19,908
not like from some strange vantage point but literally through my eyes with my eyelids down

643
00:57:19,908 --> 00:57:28,108
i know it's i've had a lot of weird experiences you know what i thought about lucid dreams is

644
00:57:28,108 --> 00:57:34,628
that it might explain a lot of those prophets and the phenomena that occurred throughout the

645
00:57:34,628 --> 00:57:41,668
world history when you just get you know one guy or girl like jean dark that has some sort of very

646
00:57:41,668 --> 00:57:48,408
uh you know profound interaction with some spiritual entity and of course when you are

647
00:57:48,408 --> 00:57:55,048
like a 12 or i don't know how old she was a 14 year old girl in uh medieval france like what else

648
00:57:55,048 --> 00:58:03,128
could you map it to but uh interaction with god and like uh or some sort of uh connected uh spiritual

649
00:58:03,768 --> 00:58:10,968
thing and this i think one of the mechanisms how we got all those you know prophets and enlightened

650
00:58:10,968 --> 00:58:25,286
people It maybe not the only mechanism but it could be actually this lucid dreaming thing It might have played a way more important role in history of humanity than we think it did For sure

651
00:58:25,826 --> 00:58:27,746
Hallustrogenic compounds, the same.

652
00:58:27,986 --> 00:58:29,066
Absolutely, yeah.

653
00:58:29,266 --> 00:58:30,026
Psychedelics, yeah.

654
00:58:30,046 --> 00:58:31,826
But once again, what are they?

655
00:58:32,206 --> 00:58:39,506
You know, I've had, actually, the episode which is online,

656
00:58:39,646 --> 00:58:41,126
the latest episode of this podcast

657
00:58:41,126 --> 00:58:42,946
was a three and a half hour conversation I had

658
00:58:42,946 --> 00:58:46,806
with a Swedish doctor about the majority,

659
00:58:47,006 --> 00:58:47,726
well, not the majority,

660
00:58:47,866 --> 00:58:49,826
but probably half of it is about hallucinogens

661
00:58:49,826 --> 00:58:53,166
and ayahuasca and all that kind of stuff.

662
00:58:53,906 --> 00:58:56,206
DMT is particularly, you know what DMT is,

663
00:58:56,386 --> 00:58:57,766
because that's a fascinating one.

664
00:58:57,766 --> 00:59:01,826
If you're into the brain and DMT

665
00:59:01,826 --> 00:59:05,506
and experiencing something else

666
00:59:05,506 --> 00:59:06,886
other than the physical realm,

667
00:59:07,066 --> 00:59:10,466
DMT is just mind-blowing

668
00:59:10,466 --> 00:59:14,026
because it already exists in the body anyway.

669
00:59:14,246 --> 00:59:15,706
It's just broken down a lot.

670
00:59:16,246 --> 00:59:18,806
And, you know, I mean...

671
00:59:18,806 --> 00:59:20,466
Did you try it to some?

672
00:59:20,466 --> 00:59:21,486
No, I haven't.

673
00:59:21,586 --> 00:59:22,286
That's the thing.

674
00:59:22,686 --> 00:59:23,706
I missed that.

675
00:59:23,706 --> 00:59:29,346
I did hallucinogens before I knew anything about things like that.

676
00:59:29,466 --> 00:59:33,846
And as I got older, like, I'd love to do it now, I think.

677
00:59:34,466 --> 00:59:39,126
But I'm apprehensive of it completely blowing my mind

678
00:59:39,126 --> 00:59:44,906
when I live in a very simple environment with children and a family.

679
00:59:45,506 --> 00:59:55,246
And, you know, when I was younger, I could trip and I could take mushrooms and do acid and all these things and just explore myself.

680
00:59:56,206 --> 01:00:03,646
I suppose now I'm worried that I'll do that and decide to completely change my life, become a, I don't know, become a hermit.

681
01:00:03,746 --> 01:00:05,246
And then what happens to my family?

682
01:00:05,246 --> 01:00:11,566
there. It's not because you never know. I mean, they show you yourself those things. They show

683
01:00:11,566 --> 01:00:18,106
you who you are. And if you realized you were living a lie or something, that would be terrible.

684
01:00:18,366 --> 01:00:24,266
I wouldn't want to inflict that on my children. But there's always that risk. And also, I think

685
01:00:24,266 --> 01:00:31,026
in my 30s, I had very good psychedelic experiences for a very long time. And then in my 30s,

686
01:00:31,026 --> 01:00:35,286
I had one bad trip, which scared me.

687
01:00:35,286 --> 01:00:51,386
I went to a place which I would call the pit of despair, of complete disconnection from life, the universe and everything, holding on by a minute thread.

688
01:00:52,006 --> 01:00:53,466
And it was horrible.

689
01:00:53,806 --> 01:00:58,306
It was absolutely the darkest night of the soul for me.

690
01:00:58,846 --> 01:01:00,266
And I don't want to do that again.

691
01:01:00,266 --> 01:01:01,226
I really don't.

692
01:01:01,766 --> 01:01:06,766
And I know the possibility is always there now because I can sense it.

693
01:01:06,846 --> 01:01:07,506
And you know what it's like?

694
01:01:07,666 --> 01:01:09,986
Presumably you've done hallucinogens, have you?

695
01:01:10,126 --> 01:01:11,126
Yeah, I've tried some.

696
01:01:11,186 --> 01:01:11,606
Right, okay.

697
01:01:11,866 --> 01:01:16,426
So you know that when you take them, it's like you're getting on a bus.

698
01:01:16,566 --> 01:01:19,146
When the bus goes, you go with the bus.

699
01:01:19,466 --> 01:01:20,486
There's no getting off.

700
01:01:20,886 --> 01:01:27,006
And if that bus is going towards a cliff and the driver's intent on going there,

701
01:01:27,486 --> 01:01:28,686
you go off the cliff.

702
01:01:28,686 --> 01:01:31,066
and if you don't want to go off the cliff,

703
01:01:31,066 --> 01:01:34,246
it makes it worse because if you resist it.

704
01:01:34,526 --> 01:01:38,866
And I wouldn't necessarily say my psyche is strong enough

705
01:01:38,866 --> 01:01:44,026
to embrace the darkest side of this stuff.

706
01:01:44,126 --> 01:01:46,026
I don't even know whether it's going to be there or not.

707
01:01:46,066 --> 01:01:47,286
I've got no idea.

708
01:01:48,066 --> 01:01:50,566
But because I've experienced it,

709
01:01:50,626 --> 01:01:51,986
I know the possibilities there

710
01:01:51,986 --> 01:01:55,266
and I feel I have very important

711
01:01:55,266 --> 01:01:58,426
and strong real life responsibilities

712
01:01:58,426 --> 01:02:01,826
that I don't want to jeopardize, if you understand what I mean, you know.

713
01:02:02,246 --> 01:02:03,706
Yeah, yeah, I understand.

714
01:02:04,186 --> 01:02:05,806
Well, looping into what you said before,

715
01:02:05,886 --> 01:02:09,246
like how do you know that after death you want to end up in a pit of despair?

716
01:02:09,806 --> 01:02:11,506
That would be fucked up, you know.

717
01:02:11,886 --> 01:02:12,366
Exactly.

718
01:02:12,366 --> 01:02:13,726
If you die, it like sucks.

719
01:02:14,146 --> 01:02:14,726
It could be.

720
01:02:14,726 --> 01:02:16,206
Why didn't I live forever?

721
01:02:16,406 --> 01:02:17,326
I had the means.

722
01:02:17,646 --> 01:02:19,286
Well, you're right there.

723
01:02:19,446 --> 01:02:20,686
You're absolutely right.

724
01:02:20,686 --> 01:02:27,186
But in my experience of the pit of despair, it changed.

725
01:02:27,966 --> 01:02:31,066
It's just that when you're in the pit of despair, it feels like infinity.

726
01:02:31,686 --> 01:02:32,686
But it changes.

727
01:02:32,806 --> 01:02:35,786
And one of the lessons of life is everything changes.

728
01:02:36,106 --> 01:02:38,446
That's for me as a 54-year-old bloke.

729
01:02:38,446 --> 01:02:47,626
I teach this to my kids all the time when, you know, my daughter, my eldest the other day was deeply distraught because, you know, she was having a problem with her horse.

730
01:02:48,026 --> 01:02:49,266
And it's horrible.

731
01:02:49,846 --> 01:02:50,846
A girl and a horse.

732
01:02:50,926 --> 01:02:51,566
She's only 13.

733
01:02:51,866 --> 01:02:53,926
It's one of the strongest bonds, right?

734
01:02:53,926 --> 01:03:01,386
and I find myself when I'm consoling her I'm saying look everything passes and remember this

735
01:03:01,386 --> 01:03:06,966
because you know the way you feel now in two or three hours possibly you'll feel different

736
01:03:06,966 --> 01:03:11,386
and I'm going to come to you and I'm going to say Alice do you remember do you remember what I said

737
01:03:11,386 --> 01:03:17,866
right now you realize everything changes so that thing you're feeling now is not forever

738
01:03:17,866 --> 01:03:23,326
and you know that because you get proven that over and over and over again it also happens for the

739
01:03:23,326 --> 01:03:26,846
good times when you're feeling great it happens as well you take the rough with the smooth but

740
01:03:26,846 --> 01:03:30,846
when you're feeling bad about something and when something's feeling tough you know

741
01:03:30,846 --> 01:03:36,726
it changes and i think it becomes one of those rules of life everything changes

742
01:03:36,726 --> 01:03:42,526
so and and i would probably that would be my mantra if i ever took hardcore psychedelics again

743
01:03:42,526 --> 01:03:49,146
i think yeah but whether i don't know but one of the tips they actually officially give you know

744
01:03:49,146 --> 01:03:56,446
to ground yourself that like everything passes and i think yeah you know there are all sorts of

745
01:03:56,446 --> 01:04:00,986
manuals reading about this like how to do this responsibly and so on is that right i didn't know

746
01:04:00,986 --> 01:04:05,626
yeah yeah there are like whole books reading about this by guys who did that especially in the u.s in

747
01:04:05,626 --> 01:04:10,646
the 50s you know they had so much research going on about lsd there and so on before it was all

748
01:04:10,646 --> 01:04:19,006
you know shut down yeah well i mean i would love to i mean like i say i and i feel like probably i

749
01:04:19,006 --> 01:04:27,486
will again because i know how much stuff there is out there in that world that i that i want to

750
01:04:27,486 --> 01:04:33,886
experience basically that's the perfect reason why you need to live forever so as long as you

751
01:04:33,886 --> 01:04:40,346
actually wish to experience new stuff like be it's like traveling or exploring your mind

752
01:04:40,346 --> 01:04:46,106
or exploring different human beings, planets, places,

753
01:04:47,066 --> 01:04:49,786
new freedom cities being built,

754
01:04:49,986 --> 01:04:56,186
witnessing new cities emerging where there was just desert and so on.

755
01:04:56,186 --> 01:04:59,526
There's an infinite amount of possibilities,

756
01:05:00,326 --> 01:05:03,646
like writing music, learning to play instruments,

757
01:05:03,986 --> 01:05:07,906
whatever you fancy, doing sports, competing with people and so on.

758
01:05:07,906 --> 01:05:16,786
that you know as long as you are interested in all those things and as long as they these things

759
01:05:16,786 --> 01:05:23,586
they mean a lot to you why would you go and die instead like why go for that option and you have

760
01:05:23,586 --> 01:05:29,026
no idea what what's beyond maybe there is something maybe there is not but as long as you're basically

761
01:05:29,026 --> 01:05:37,166
enjoying yourself why why why do that i agree i do agree with you i just think that um people have

762
01:05:37,166 --> 01:05:43,966
been dying for like thousands of years haven't they maybe i'll do um ayahuasca on my 200th birthday

763
01:05:43,966 --> 01:05:49,606
then that'll be something to aim for but no i i can't i can't disagree with you i i think is

764
01:05:49,606 --> 01:05:55,386
absolutely true and i think when you live in the moment age doesn't matter anyway like if you think

765
01:05:55,386 --> 01:06:02,506
about age if you think about your past and your future then it matters but really right now you

766
01:06:02,506 --> 01:06:06,626
and me talking doesn't it doesn't matter anything nothing matters it all that matters is what's

767
01:06:06,626 --> 01:06:13,586
happening between you and me and I could be well I could be 30 right now in fact I don't feel that

768
01:06:13,586 --> 01:06:21,766
different I don't actually feel much different I still identify with myself as the me of the past

769
01:06:21,766 --> 01:06:28,506
I can't really remember being a child that that much but when up from you know being in my 20s

770
01:06:28,506 --> 01:06:34,706
and 30s and 40s nothing's changed necessarily my ideas might have changed my ideology and I've

771
01:06:34,706 --> 01:06:39,966
I learnt a few skills, you know, but other than that, it's me.

772
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:42,824
I don't feel like any different.

773
01:06:43,504 --> 01:06:47,084
So that would presumably stay the same as well.

774
01:06:47,164 --> 01:06:50,584
Yeah, you might never will because the change is so slow

775
01:06:50,584 --> 01:06:54,504
that unless you experience severe breakdowns,

776
01:06:54,744 --> 01:06:59,164
medical emergencies and so on, you might not realize that.

777
01:06:59,164 --> 01:07:02,524
And I think that's how people actually approach their health.

778
01:07:03,504 --> 01:07:06,664
They just keep on flowing and then something breaks

779
01:07:06,664 --> 01:07:08,944
and they're like, oh, it just actually exists.

780
01:07:08,944 --> 01:07:16,744
And then for some of them, it's like the tipping point when they start actually doing something about their health.

781
01:07:17,004 --> 01:07:20,944
And sometimes this tipping point is actually the last thing they experience.

782
01:07:21,084 --> 01:07:26,584
Because usually the most common symptom of a heart attack is death.

783
01:07:27,124 --> 01:07:31,724
So usually just, yeah, it's too late.

784
01:07:31,984 --> 01:07:35,584
So it's good to start early.

785
01:07:35,584 --> 01:07:40,524
I suppose there's a part of me that doesn't mind the thought of dying.

786
01:07:42,044 --> 01:07:45,604
I think because that's life.

787
01:07:45,944 --> 01:07:46,524
You know what I mean?

788
01:07:47,224 --> 01:07:49,684
It sounds a bit wishy-washy.

789
01:07:49,704 --> 01:07:50,024
It's a bit wrong.

790
01:07:50,444 --> 01:07:52,224
Well, it's just a bit wishy-washy.

791
01:07:52,324 --> 01:07:58,044
It's like, you know, I feel like it's fair that you get a shot at life

792
01:07:58,044 --> 01:08:00,964
and then you live your life and then you die.

793
01:08:01,324 --> 01:08:02,204
I think that's fair.

794
01:08:02,264 --> 01:08:02,884
Everyone's got it.

795
01:08:02,944 --> 01:08:03,744
Everyone's doing it.

796
01:08:03,744 --> 01:08:06,464
and people live great lives.

797
01:08:06,764 --> 01:08:09,104
And I think we celebrate people that live good lives,

798
01:08:09,904 --> 01:08:11,304
but then they die.

799
01:08:11,884 --> 01:08:13,444
And then they're forgotten, actually.

800
01:08:13,764 --> 01:08:15,364
And then they're forgotten very, very quickly,

801
01:08:15,484 --> 01:08:16,824
even the most famous people.

802
01:08:17,304 --> 01:08:19,964
It's a very few people that actually get remembered

803
01:08:19,964 --> 01:08:21,124
for more than a generation.

804
01:08:21,124 --> 01:08:24,504
So really, you know, a lot of what we do here,

805
01:08:25,044 --> 01:08:25,724
it doesn't matter.

806
01:08:25,944 --> 01:08:26,904
It doesn't really matter.

807
01:08:27,444 --> 01:08:29,324
You know, it matters to us in the moment,

808
01:08:29,884 --> 01:08:31,484
but in the grand scheme of things,

809
01:08:31,544 --> 01:08:33,064
it doesn't really matter, you know.

810
01:08:33,064 --> 01:08:41,004
um but but how that relates to longevity i'm not sure because i think probably if you asked anyone

811
01:08:41,004 --> 01:08:45,124
do you want to die unless they were in extreme pain they'd probably say no

812
01:08:45,124 --> 01:08:54,764
so you you you're you you definitely want to live forever yeah you know i don't like the word uh

813
01:08:54,764 --> 01:09:00,724
fair because like is it fair that you're sitting here like a in a suit and there are people dying

814
01:09:00,724 --> 01:09:06,244
from thirst or from hunger like the world is an extremely unfair place like and there are also

815
01:09:06,244 --> 01:09:11,684
people who are like billionaires you know uh with huge swimming pools and like flying helicopters

816
01:09:11,684 --> 01:09:18,084
and private jets and whatever so it's like extremely unfair but the fact that this happens

817
01:09:18,084 --> 01:09:25,124
it doesn't imply that like death should be the great equalize like the fact that this billionaire

818
01:09:25,124 --> 01:09:28,664
or dictator dies, it doesn't make your life better.

819
01:09:29,644 --> 01:09:34,244
So I think it's a comforting thought sometimes

820
01:09:34,244 --> 01:09:37,284
that you can live whatever life you want,

821
01:09:37,384 --> 01:09:38,664
but we will still die.

822
01:09:39,304 --> 01:09:41,904
But in fact, it shouldn't be

823
01:09:41,904 --> 01:09:46,044
because if you spend your first 50 or 60 years

824
01:09:46,044 --> 01:09:49,064
working your ass off and trying to get out of poverty

825
01:09:49,064 --> 01:09:52,944
or escape from some sort of really dangerous place,

826
01:09:52,944 --> 01:09:58,604
a war, some sort of humanitarian conflict, and then you end up, for example, in Europe

827
01:09:58,604 --> 01:10:04,944
as a refugee, and you're already in your 60s, and your brain already is not good enough

828
01:10:04,944 --> 01:10:09,744
to even learn the local language and start a new life.

829
01:10:09,744 --> 01:10:14,064
So you're just basically preparing already to die.

830
01:10:14,384 --> 01:10:19,004
You just do the things you can do, like watch TV or whatever, and then spend time with your

831
01:10:19,004 --> 01:10:20,804
children, hopefully, and that's it.

832
01:10:20,804 --> 01:10:42,244
But in case we are able to extend that sort of longevity, like everyone gets a shot to realize all those opportunities that they didn't have because they were initially deprived of this, you know, just because of how they were born.

833
01:10:42,244 --> 01:10:47,044
So actually, in a certain world, I'm not saying that's where we are going.

834
01:10:47,184 --> 01:10:51,684
Maybe it's going to go wrong, but immortality can be the great equalizer and not death.

835
01:10:52,684 --> 01:11:01,664
It'd be interesting to thought experiment how this would relate on the timeline with artificial intelligence.

836
01:11:02,204 --> 01:11:09,344
Because if you track that forward enough, many human qualities become completely redundant.

837
01:11:09,344 --> 01:11:19,084
and which is fine but now they're redundant forever as opposed to now they're redundant

838
01:11:19,084 --> 01:11:25,964
for 70 80 90 years and then you die now they're redundant forever and um i don't know what that

839
01:11:25,964 --> 01:11:31,484
the implications of that are i i barely really got wrapped my head around the fact that

840
01:11:31,484 --> 01:11:37,504
all human functions might actually become redundant anyway which which theoretically they will

841
01:11:37,504 --> 01:11:43,724
in a professional sense yeah and in the sense that um an ai would be able to think better than

842
01:11:43,724 --> 01:11:48,344
you and do better than you whatever that is yeah well you know there are factories that produce

843
01:11:48,344 --> 01:11:55,784
uh you know um kitchen supplies uh better than you do but doesn't mean you still like and make

844
01:11:55,784 --> 01:12:02,164
a spoon and sell it on the market and people will actually pay more for that spoon so uh you can

845
01:12:02,164 --> 01:12:10,184
still do things that you like to do, like drive a car, even though AI is way better than you driving

846
01:12:10,184 --> 01:12:19,324
a car, right? What I mean is then that there will be an infinite abundance of everything. So in a

847
01:12:19,324 --> 01:12:24,484
way it will take the meaning out of many things. So take driving a car. Your dream might be to drive

848
01:12:24,484 --> 01:12:31,184
a sports car. Well, in the distant future, you'll just be able to conjure up anything you want. So

849
01:12:31,184 --> 01:12:37,404
will that devalue the experience of wanting to drive some unobtainable car or some very luxury

850
01:12:37,404 --> 01:12:43,124
car i don't i don't necessarily know but but it could do well it could it's called i think there's

851
01:12:43,124 --> 01:12:49,124
a term like hedonistic adaptation like the more access you have to all sorts of luxuries uh and

852
01:12:49,124 --> 01:12:55,184
those luxuries start to mean less to you and they become like regular things to you yes not luxury

853
01:12:55,184 --> 01:12:59,884
anymore oh yeah that definitely happens i mean that happens on a small scale with me like

854
01:12:59,884 --> 01:13:07,464
with whatever but you know it's uh at the same time there is stuff which is not accessible for

855
01:13:07,464 --> 01:13:13,704
to some people at all you know like health care or like quality food or you know like some very

856
01:13:13,704 --> 01:13:20,204
basic things and if those things become accessible then it's a universal good because you know if you

857
01:13:20,204 --> 01:13:40,770
see the correlation between income and happiness you can see that happiness grows until a certain income So if we have this universal income like established and it high enough then it could be like a very positive society but you know i not super

858
01:13:40,770 --> 01:13:47,330
positive about ai to be honest so i i i don't know like my position on that because i'm also at the

859
01:13:47,330 --> 01:13:55,570
same time uh concerned um sometimes i get some sort of you know ai depression for a few days

860
01:13:55,570 --> 01:14:01,270
Because on one thing, it can make the world a better place

861
01:14:01,270 --> 01:14:05,670
and it can help us with the research, what we do in terms of aging.

862
01:14:05,870 --> 01:14:09,390
But at the same time, it can also, in certain scenarios,

863
01:14:09,930 --> 01:14:11,550
wipe us out completely.

864
01:14:12,390 --> 01:14:15,810
And you cannot exclude this possibility.

865
01:14:16,810 --> 01:14:23,050
I think, for me, AI will be a forcing function

866
01:14:23,050 --> 01:14:31,270
for us humans to take responsibility for ourselves for what we want to do because we will

867
01:14:31,270 --> 01:14:37,170
we will have much more opportunity to decide what we want to do because many of the things that we're

868
01:14:37,170 --> 01:14:44,450
currently forced to do in a way or at least coaxed into doing we won't need to do so we'll be left

869
01:14:44,450 --> 01:14:53,110
with this opportunity. And I'm in two minds because I've, in various times in my life,

870
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:59,910
I've had masses of opportunities. And in those moments, I've found decision-making much harder

871
01:14:59,910 --> 01:15:05,850
than when I've been forced into a situation where there aren't that many options.

872
01:15:05,850 --> 01:15:15,090
so so with the ai future of abundance i think it might be quite debilitating for people

873
01:15:15,090 --> 01:15:21,570
myself included what am i going to do because i really do have to and that as a result i really

874
01:15:21,570 --> 01:15:27,510
do have to take full extreme responsibility for doing what i do because i'm almost certain i'll

875
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:33,970
limit myself in certain ways if everything is abundantly available and i for me that often

876
01:15:33,970 --> 01:15:38,570
means that a lot of things are going to lose their meaning a bit. So I'm going to limit myself.

877
01:15:38,570 --> 01:15:43,430
I'm going to make, I'm going to make things harder for myself. So I, you know, or I'm going to do

878
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:48,170
things which are pointless really in the eyes of an AI. This is a pointless because I, like you say,

879
01:15:48,230 --> 01:15:53,550
I can do that better than you. The AI is like, you know, I could, you know, you could have a

880
01:15:53,550 --> 01:15:59,370
Michelin starred chef robot cooking you food every single day. But what difference is that

881
01:15:59,370 --> 01:16:07,650
after a hundred days to you eating rice and and something every day it's the same it's just a

882
01:16:07,650 --> 01:16:12,230
different it's just a different level of existence you still get you'll still get accustomed to it

883
01:16:12,230 --> 01:16:17,850
if you see what i mean i think we're already doing that so we're doing that right now like

884
01:16:17,850 --> 01:16:22,890
imagine people uh a thousand years ago thinking like what if you would have water every day yes

885
01:16:22,890 --> 01:16:28,210
what if you would have like you don't have to put up a fire to cook every day what if uh you could

886
01:16:28,210 --> 01:16:35,770
have you know an ability to wash your clothes and not have to walk at three

887
01:16:35,770 --> 01:16:40,090
kilometers to the river or something and we kind of already adapted to that and

888
01:16:40,090 --> 01:16:45,730
and now we find pleasure in like taking a cold shower for example some people do

889
01:16:45,730 --> 01:16:51,090
like me although we have hot water and we don't just you know sit in front of

890
01:16:51,090 --> 01:16:57,850
the screen and just have a pipe with sugar or like our no whipped cream or

891
01:16:57,850 --> 01:17:03,770
whatever into our mouth and like sucking on that although we have that capability right so we are

892
01:17:03,770 --> 01:17:10,250
kind of already uh realizing that and we are implementing the source of like challenges uh

893
01:17:10,890 --> 01:17:18,490
tiny challenges for ourselves to to keep to keep us going like we go hiking uh for no reason we

894
01:17:18,490 --> 01:17:25,610
climb mountains or we cross the oceans on a sailing boat so we already do all those sorts

895
01:17:25,610 --> 01:17:32,650
of challenges and i think maybe ai won't change that that much will hopefully still have the

896
01:17:32,650 --> 01:17:39,230
capability to go hike and do this stuff which is i'm sure we will but but for me personally there's

897
01:17:39,230 --> 01:17:48,250
a big difference between you know say climbing to the top of a very difficult mountain that's been

898
01:17:48,250 --> 01:17:53,970
done by thousands of people or that's been done by no people or that or that i can't just sit on a

899
01:17:53,970 --> 01:18:00,810
um a thing and it takes me up there you know like the because i've experienced this my life

900
01:18:00,810 --> 01:18:07,470
i've traveled a lot over my life and i've traveled places which have changed drastically a good

901
01:18:07,470 --> 01:18:15,030
example being yeah i made a film once in the himalayas about about um children who used to

902
01:18:15,030 --> 01:18:22,430
go to school from a very high part of the of ladak in the himalayas they had to they had to walk for

903
01:18:22,430 --> 01:18:28,050
five days down the frozen river to get to boarding school right and it was it's real hardship and took

904
01:18:28,050 --> 01:18:32,910
five days sleeping in little caves and around fires every night and stuff it was very very cold

905
01:18:32,910 --> 01:18:41,290
and very dangerous and now there's a road so since then a road has been built so so you can just drive

906
01:18:41,290 --> 01:18:48,110
it in less than a day now i'm far less inclined to walk down the river now as a challenge to myself

907
01:18:48,110 --> 01:18:51,170
because you see cars going by and stuff.

908
01:18:51,630 --> 01:18:54,030
Whereas, you know, literally 25 years before that,

909
01:18:54,290 --> 01:18:58,610
the only way down was to brave down walking across the chadar,

910
01:18:58,690 --> 01:18:59,530
they call it, the ice.

911
01:19:00,050 --> 01:19:00,750
And it was dangerous.

912
01:19:00,850 --> 01:19:02,990
If you fell through, that was it, you were gone, you know.

913
01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:07,970
So I can definitely think that it's going to be tougher

914
01:19:07,970 --> 01:19:13,890
to find challenges that seem meaningful to me because, you know.

915
01:19:14,530 --> 01:19:15,610
The real challenges.

916
01:19:15,910 --> 01:19:16,670
Yeah, a proper challenge.

917
01:19:16,670 --> 01:19:23,010
Well, like if you, you know, because I think a lot of our best challenges we're forced into, aren't we?

918
01:19:23,470 --> 01:19:26,990
Like even now, like you and me, we've both got to earn a living, right?

919
01:19:27,550 --> 01:19:34,930
If I was a multimillionaire, I probably, I actually would still, I would be doing this podcast, but it wouldn't be the same.

920
01:19:35,470 --> 01:19:38,930
And I may not have ended up doing it to begin with, more to the point.

921
01:19:38,930 --> 01:19:45,430
you know there is in in in in this hardship that gut life gives you there are some very important

922
01:19:45,430 --> 01:19:52,390
drivers for us aren't there that's that's really what drives us some of the all the most the most

923
01:19:52,390 --> 01:19:57,830
adaptive and the most innovative i've ever been is when i've been forced and not when i'm just

924
01:19:57,830 --> 01:20:04,170
sitting pretty going oh well you know like things are chugging along nicely and stuff um what ai

925
01:20:04,170 --> 01:20:07,670
what I might do is take away that forcing function

926
01:20:07,670 --> 01:20:10,410
because there might always be the option to say,

927
01:20:10,410 --> 01:20:11,250
oh, do you know what?

928
01:20:11,250 --> 01:20:13,250
I could just get that to do it, all right?

929
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:18,250
My personal robot, which will be like a phone, is now.

930
01:20:18,250 --> 01:20:20,410
There'll be a personal robot, won't there?

931
01:20:20,410 --> 01:20:33,056
And it will be able to do all kinds of stuff for you And you know we might have personal transportation that can fly places or probably I don know but there be there be harder challenges

932
01:20:33,336 --> 01:20:37,956
And do you know what I've often wondered is at that point, did the challenges become spiritual?

933
01:20:38,536 --> 01:20:43,976
That's, that's why, you know, like, because that might be something that AI might

934
01:20:43,976 --> 01:20:51,796
not be able to compete with us on because arguably we're alive and they're not

935
01:20:51,796 --> 01:20:59,476
whatever that means aliveness you know like uh life life life is something that i think we all

936
01:20:59,476 --> 01:21:07,176
acknowledge but but whether or not ai can ever have life i don't know some people say yes some

937
01:21:07,176 --> 01:21:13,096
people say no so so there will be things they don't compete with us on and so there'll be the

938
01:21:13,096 --> 01:21:17,316
places there'll be the frontier i i presume i don't i don't i really don't know i mean

939
01:21:17,316 --> 01:21:23,216
i can't wait to find out in one sense but like you i do have my doom days where if you stay alive

940
01:21:23,216 --> 01:21:27,936
you'll find out yes you're absolutely right actually bloody me you're right you always have

941
01:21:27,936 --> 01:21:34,256
a way out so no reason to worry right now i mean yeah so all right we better wrap up soon because

942
01:21:34,256 --> 01:21:44,216
my next person's coming in in 12 minutes um do you think that um we would we would choose to die

943
01:21:44,216 --> 01:21:49,016
then do you think do you think choosing to die will become a cultural thing

944
01:21:49,016 --> 01:21:56,536
it might uh very well become yeah a cultural thing i think some people you know we have a lot

945
01:21:56,536 --> 01:22:05,336
of people who don't take vaccines right now and um yeah so um there will be people who reject any

946
01:22:05,336 --> 01:22:11,876
kind of immortality rugs and maybe they just resort to to the life or to more like primitive

947
01:22:11,876 --> 01:22:18,396
kind of lifestyle and deprive themselves of those technological advantages and decide they i actually

948
01:22:18,396 --> 01:22:25,156
mean not people rejecting longevity i mean people having longevity and then deciding

949
01:22:25,156 --> 01:22:27,956
philosophically, right, I should die.

950
01:22:28,236 --> 01:22:30,336
Yeah, well, there always will be suicide.

951
01:22:30,576 --> 01:22:32,256
I mean, you cannot get rid of that.

952
01:22:32,436 --> 01:22:34,736
And that's what people do right now as well.

953
01:22:35,256 --> 01:22:38,676
So they just decide either life is too bad

954
01:22:38,676 --> 01:22:40,096
or they had enough

955
01:22:40,096 --> 01:22:44,356
or they do some sort of risky stuff and they die.

956
01:22:44,516 --> 01:22:48,396
So it's kind of like indirect suicide, so to say.

957
01:22:49,376 --> 01:22:52,536
So yeah, I think that will still take place.

958
01:22:52,536 --> 01:22:55,256
So there won't be like technical immortality.

959
01:22:55,976 --> 01:23:00,416
I suppose what I mean is, even suicide seems like the wrong way to describe it.

960
01:23:00,836 --> 01:23:05,696
I mean, the choice to die will be a natural and good one.

961
01:23:05,856 --> 01:23:06,516
That's what I mean.

962
01:23:06,856 --> 01:23:10,536
Like, so imagine you are a thousand years old.

963
01:23:10,596 --> 01:23:11,016
I don't know.

964
01:23:13,156 --> 01:23:16,856
There might be a realization that dying is important.

965
01:23:17,416 --> 01:23:18,896
Not because you're depressed.

966
01:23:18,896 --> 01:23:26,816
not because you're, you know, for a reason that seems that we don't really understand yet.

967
01:23:28,396 --> 01:23:29,296
It could be.

968
01:23:29,496 --> 01:23:34,276
Maybe even, you know, the governments will incentivize people to this kind of behavior.

969
01:23:34,296 --> 01:23:35,956
They already do that in Canada, don't they?

970
01:23:36,456 --> 01:23:37,416
No, they do that.

971
01:23:37,736 --> 01:23:40,116
You know, anyway, that's a whole other thing.

972
01:23:40,376 --> 01:23:43,916
But God, if the government's incentivizing it, I'll definitely stay alive.

973
01:23:44,036 --> 01:23:45,776
If they want me to die, I'm staying alive.

974
01:23:45,776 --> 01:23:50,376
But there is still war, so it's happening.

975
01:23:50,376 --> 01:23:54,396
So yeah, it might very well be.

976
01:23:54,396 --> 01:24:00,016
The more you live, the more opportunities open up and all kinds of those weird phenomena

977
01:24:00,016 --> 01:24:01,496
might occur.

978
01:24:01,496 --> 01:24:07,756
So yeah, we have to be ready to face them, we'll face them anyway.

979
01:24:07,756 --> 01:24:13,236
So for now, it's a bit early to go in that direction.

980
01:24:13,236 --> 01:24:19,296
But for now, we have zero things that slow down aging reliably, pruning humans.

981
01:24:19,296 --> 01:24:22,076
So I think we should focus on that.

982
01:24:22,756 --> 01:24:32,376
And then, yeah, we'll for sure face various societal transformations and maybe protests and maybe even some violence.

983
01:24:32,576 --> 01:24:35,836
But it doesn't mean we don't need to go that way.

984
01:24:36,036 --> 01:24:40,516
So we for sure need to think about those things in advantage.

985
01:24:40,516 --> 01:24:42,016
but

986
01:24:42,016 --> 01:24:45,296
I think it's still

987
01:24:45,296 --> 01:24:47,276
a good thing that we will

988
01:24:47,276 --> 01:24:49,436
it's like the best thing ever

989
01:24:49,436 --> 01:24:50,876
that we will protect

990
01:24:50,876 --> 01:24:53,196
people from the biggest killer

991
01:24:53,196 --> 01:24:55,076
on the planet, we'll give the people

992
01:24:55,076 --> 01:24:57,056
an option to opt

993
01:24:57,056 --> 01:24:58,956
out of this misery

994
01:24:58,956 --> 01:24:59,736
and death

995
01:24:59,736 --> 01:25:02,876
Right, hallelujah to that

996
01:25:02,876 --> 01:25:03,356
you're gonna

997
01:25:03,356 --> 01:25:07,076
well I'm glad that you

998
01:25:07,076 --> 01:25:08,616
think I'm gonna be able to live together

999
01:25:08,616 --> 01:25:10,676
my kids are going to be so happy about that.

1000
01:25:10,736 --> 01:25:13,396
That's the first thing I'm going to tell them next time I speak to them.

1001
01:25:13,916 --> 01:25:14,236
Cause,

1002
01:25:14,436 --> 01:25:15,456
cause,

1003
01:25:15,616 --> 01:25:15,936
um,

1004
01:25:16,056 --> 01:25:16,236
that,

1005
01:25:16,356 --> 01:25:16,536
that,

1006
01:25:16,816 --> 01:25:17,536
well,

1007
01:25:17,576 --> 01:25:17,776
I mean,

1008
01:25:17,776 --> 01:25:18,276
if I said,

1009
01:25:18,336 --> 01:25:18,516
look,

1010
01:25:18,596 --> 01:25:25,236
someone who knows about biohacking thinks that I will live forever if I choose to,

1011
01:25:25,696 --> 01:25:27,836
if someone had told me that when I was a kid,

1012
01:25:27,896 --> 01:25:28,696
that would have,

1013
01:25:28,736 --> 01:25:30,996
there would have been a little less trauma in my life.

1014
01:25:30,996 --> 01:25:35,196
Cause I did think about death when I was small and it's not a nice thought at all.

1015
01:25:35,196 --> 01:25:36,476
Is it when you're small?

1016
01:25:36,796 --> 01:25:38,396
I don't know whether you thought about it.

1017
01:25:38,616 --> 01:25:45,096
I remember when a bird flew into our kitchen window once and died and fell on the floor when I was very young and I saw it.

1018
01:25:45,756 --> 01:25:47,316
And we buried it in the back garden.

1019
01:25:47,416 --> 01:25:50,376
And I remember crying my eyes out for hours, sobbing.

1020
01:25:50,376 --> 01:25:57,016
And it was like, I think it was the first time I understood that death happened as a kid, you know.

1021
01:25:58,096 --> 01:26:04,916
But yeah, I mean, losing your loved ones, that fills me with dread sometimes.

1022
01:26:04,916 --> 01:26:11,076
um and yeah that's an important consideration because you know every death it's not just about

1023
01:26:11,076 --> 01:26:17,236
you but there's also people around you so if you you so to say lived a good life and you surrounded

1024
01:26:17,236 --> 01:26:24,276
yourself with people whom you love and who who love you then if you go away all those people

1025
01:26:24,276 --> 01:26:30,996
will be 100 guaranteed suffering and sometimes this suffering will be a very long time it could

1026
01:26:30,996 --> 01:26:37,316
be years it could be tens of years like they will feel that emptiness that when interacting with

1027
01:26:37,316 --> 01:26:43,396
objects or with the activities they will you will keep coming to mind and they will feel deprived

1028
01:26:43,396 --> 01:26:50,516
of like your attention your love and so on so uh yeah that's a huge loss it's like uh you know

1029
01:26:50,516 --> 01:26:58,276
empty hole uh that cannot be filled or it takes a lot of time to fill so um yeah i think like

1030
01:26:58,276 --> 01:27:03,896
it's it's terrible yeah what's going on right now and like this it's it's

1031
01:27:03,896 --> 01:27:09,096
happening two times a second almost in the world so like during our talk

1032
01:27:09,096 --> 01:27:13,636
thousands of people died and like probably tens of thousands are

1033
01:27:13,636 --> 01:27:23,802
suffering because of those thousands died so that a lot of sorrow all of the earlier you mentioned all the different ways we we honor death

1034
01:27:24,762 --> 01:27:26,002
funerals,

1035
01:27:26,182 --> 01:27:26,682
you know,

1036
01:27:26,842 --> 01:27:27,242
mummies,

1037
01:27:27,322 --> 01:27:27,802
all this kind of stuff.

1038
01:27:27,842 --> 01:27:28,802
I think that is what,

1039
01:27:28,942 --> 01:27:29,742
that is our,

1040
01:27:29,962 --> 01:27:33,362
that's the cultural mechanism for exactly what you're talking about.

1041
01:27:33,482 --> 01:27:33,642
Yeah.

1042
01:27:34,422 --> 01:27:36,382
And yeah,

1043
01:27:36,382 --> 01:27:36,702
maybe,

1044
01:27:37,042 --> 01:27:37,722
maybe you're right.

1045
01:27:37,802 --> 01:27:39,262
Maybe you in,

1046
01:27:39,302 --> 01:27:44,082
in growing old and in growing old or not in growing old,

1047
01:27:44,082 --> 01:27:57,282
But in staying alive within the power of your own self, you could choose, if you wanted to die, you could choose a point in which you would inflict the least pain, which will be possible.

1048
01:27:57,282 --> 01:28:09,002
Because I think in my case, it's, you know, like my children, leaving my children when they're young, as opposed to leaving them when they're sort of in their 40s would be a different thing.

1049
01:28:09,002 --> 01:28:12,162
Like I can imagine, unfortunately, both my parents are still alive.

1050
01:28:12,322 --> 01:28:22,262
But whenever I've done a thought experiment with them dying, I feel comforted by the fact that they lived a good life, both of them, very good lives.

1051
01:28:23,322 --> 01:28:25,542
But when you're a child, that's not true.

1052
01:28:25,662 --> 01:28:27,022
You don't understand that concept.

1053
01:28:27,162 --> 01:28:28,302
You just want your mum and dad.

1054
01:28:28,802 --> 01:28:29,462
You don't, you know.

1055
01:28:30,882 --> 01:28:35,642
But I think, yeah, I'm still obviously different to you.

1056
01:28:35,642 --> 01:28:40,402
I'm still in the idea of death is a natural part of life.

1057
01:28:41,762 --> 01:28:43,762
It is a natural part of life,

1058
01:28:43,862 --> 01:28:45,962
but a lot of stuff is a natural part of life,

1059
01:28:46,122 --> 01:28:48,082
and we try to get rid of that stuff.

1060
01:28:48,602 --> 01:28:51,442
So like cancer, it's a natural part of life,

1061
01:28:51,522 --> 01:28:53,342
but we're still trying to solve it,

1062
01:28:53,482 --> 01:28:56,202
and I think everybody considers it the best cause.

1063
01:28:56,382 --> 01:28:58,522
Viruses are a natural part of life.

1064
01:28:59,642 --> 01:29:04,002
And the fact that it's natural, I don't think it means anything.

1065
01:29:04,002 --> 01:29:07,582
I don't even know what's natural

1066
01:29:07,582 --> 01:29:08,742
like everything is natural

1067
01:29:08,742 --> 01:29:11,802
we are children of the universe

1068
01:29:11,802 --> 01:29:13,642
like everything is natural

1069
01:29:13,642 --> 01:29:15,402
but you know we are trying to

1070
01:29:15,402 --> 01:29:16,802
make our lives better

1071
01:29:16,802 --> 01:29:18,122
and not think what's natural

1072
01:29:18,122 --> 01:29:19,042
and what's not natural

1073
01:29:19,042 --> 01:29:20,242
no you're absolutely right

1074
01:29:20,242 --> 01:29:22,322
it's a stupid idea really

1075
01:29:22,322 --> 01:29:24,362
but it's because I haven't

1076
01:29:24,362 --> 01:29:26,982
it's because I don't live in the world you live in

1077
01:29:26,982 --> 01:29:28,502
I'm almost certain

1078
01:29:28,502 --> 01:29:30,002
because you work in that world

1079
01:29:30,002 --> 01:29:33,182
it's become part of your consciousness

1080
01:29:33,182 --> 01:29:39,262
that living forever is a solvable problem well it has become part of my consciousness before i

1081
01:29:39,262 --> 01:29:45,142
started working there it's what led me to working here really yeah you thought i decided to get

1082
01:29:45,142 --> 01:29:52,242
educated in biomedical engineering and so on that's interesting um what what problem without

1083
01:29:52,242 --> 01:29:56,842
we've got i've got i've got a knock on the head in in a couple of minutes but can you briefly say

1084
01:29:56,842 --> 01:30:01,822
why that do you know why that originally that thought originally came to your mind because

1085
01:30:01,822 --> 01:30:08,682
It's quite a radical thought, if you think about it, in the beginning, to decide that death is not necessary.

1086
01:30:09,622 --> 01:30:23,002
I think radical thoughts, when the kind of realization comes, they tend to stick because maybe you feel at a certain age that you're kind of revolutionary against what people think.

1087
01:30:23,082 --> 01:30:25,322
But this thought makes a lot of sense to you.

1088
01:30:25,322 --> 01:30:32,362
I think I first interacted with a scientist called Vladimir Skolachev.

1089
01:30:32,362 --> 01:30:37,982
He passed away since then, but he was a huge figure in biology in Russia.

1090
01:30:38,642 --> 01:30:40,742
He developed a type of antioxidant.

1091
01:30:41,382 --> 01:30:46,382
At that time, the oxidative theory of aging was super popular,

1092
01:30:46,542 --> 01:30:50,582
that reactive oxygen species kill you from the inside, from mitochondria.

1093
01:30:51,142 --> 01:30:53,642
So he found a way to tackle that.

1094
01:30:53,642 --> 01:31:02,382
Since then, this theory was completely busted and his antioxidant, I think, yet wasn't effective

1095
01:31:02,382 --> 01:31:05,322
in treating any kind of disease.

1096
01:31:05,322 --> 01:31:13,422
But his work led me to realize that aging is actually very complicated, but it's a biological

1097
01:31:13,422 --> 01:31:18,662
process that unwraps the body and we can approach it from different angles.

1098
01:31:18,662 --> 01:31:21,442
It has a lot of angles to it, a lot of components.

1099
01:31:21,442 --> 01:31:27,362
if we maybe simultaneously attack it from a different angle so we can do something about

1100
01:31:28,562 --> 01:31:34,642
that process so i think i was not really maybe that much inspired by defeating death because it's

1101
01:31:34,642 --> 01:31:42,242
so far-fetched but by the fact that we have like this very mysterious unknown process also like

1102
01:31:42,242 --> 01:31:49,442
embedded in our culture and we can kind of discover study it and find ways how to tackle

1103
01:31:49,442 --> 01:31:58,082
that. It's like a very mystical, scientific problem and people are almost not paying attention

1104
01:31:58,082 --> 01:32:05,842
to that. It's like ending up in a very curious place in a new country, but very unexplored.

1105
01:32:09,202 --> 01:32:14,082
You immediately feel the wish to share it to your friends or something like,

1106
01:32:14,082 --> 01:32:19,282
look I ended up in this place and it's like so amazing there's so much things to do here to see

1107
01:32:19,282 --> 01:32:25,682
and nobody talks about it or like you don't see a documentary in national geographic about that or

1108
01:32:25,682 --> 01:32:35,522
whatever and I think this kind of like new horizons is what inspired me and that's why I started you

1109
01:32:35,522 --> 01:32:42,322
know first focusing on you know biohacking and that kind of stuff supplements and all that and

1110
01:32:42,322 --> 01:32:46,442
And eventually had an education in that field.

1111
01:32:46,582 --> 01:32:51,662
Did a master's degree in biomedical engineering and later on joined Unlimited Bio.

1112
01:32:53,202 --> 01:32:58,202
Wow. Well, look, sorry to cut you off, but that's a time constraint.

1113
01:32:58,402 --> 01:33:00,382
Something we may not have in the future.

1114
01:33:01,082 --> 01:33:04,922
I could, yeah, we could talk for years.

1115
01:33:06,482 --> 01:33:09,042
But many thanks for sharing your story, Vladimir.

1116
01:33:09,042 --> 01:33:16,902
me all right it's um it's a it's a it's a i i always veer down the mind i always veer down the

1117
01:33:16,902 --> 01:33:23,042
sort of um thought experiment when we when people start talking about longevity because i just think

1118
01:33:23,042 --> 01:33:30,262
that there's going to be some existential questions that will need answering and um but i'm happy it's

1119
01:33:30,262 --> 01:33:36,042
happening and i'm i'm so happy that you think i might be able to choose because because i will

1120
01:33:36,042 --> 01:33:42,602
choose to live don't get me wrong there's 100 i'm not sure what will happen but i will choose to live

1121
01:33:42,602 --> 01:33:47,622
100 so thanks thanks for coming in and it's great talking to you and good luck with everything

1122
01:33:47,622 --> 01:33:53,542
amazing thank you timothy thank you so much for having me it was very insightful conversation i

1123
01:33:53,542 --> 01:33:56,462
enjoyed it so much so thank you

1124
01:34:06,042 --> 01:34:36,022
Thank you.