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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast.

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My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 136 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Yes, hello indeed.

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And welcome to this very special two-part conversation with the one and only Mr. Ben Gunn.

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Now, this is a three and a half hour conversation full of absolute signal, as they say,

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but the rather long length of it is not the only reason that I have split it into two parts.

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Let me explain.

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I am trying out something new this week with the folks over at Fountain app.

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For those of you that don't know, Fountain is one of the biggest players in the value-for-value podcasting space.

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Their platform has been the preferred one for people who want to stream and boost Bitcoin

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to their favorite shows for a few years now,

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and I've been using it to swell the Free Cities podcast's

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strategic Bitcoin reserve ever since they integrated the platform

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with the decentralized social network NOSTA

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that everyone we know uses.

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Remember, guys, Bitcoin and NOSTA.

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These are the two pieces of tech you probably need

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to get your head around as soon as possible.

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In fact, after this conversation with Ben,

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I might even say it's quite urgent now.

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Well, as of last week, I have started using Fountain to host the Free Cities podcast.

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We've migrated it away from Spotify.

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And as a result, I can now try out a whole new roster of features,

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including bonus episodes and subscriptions, etc. to name but two.

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So what does this mean in reality?

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Well, this week's episode with Ben is available to everyone as per usual.

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But if you would like to listen to the second two hours, that will be a bonus episode available to subscribers only.

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That means if you subscribe to the Free Cities podcast, once you finish part one, you can just connect immediately with part two for the full three and a half hour interview experience.

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experience. It will just show up in your episode feed as per usual. As a subscriber, you will also

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get all the bonus episodes in the future and early access to all the very long form shows

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that get split into two parts, such as this one. You will also get a shout out each week if you

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choose on the show and a subscriber badge on fountain. Woohoo! Plus any comments you make

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will be read out in the intro of each show.

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What's not to like?

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There is a price to this, of course.

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What is it?

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Well, the price of a large Starbucks, in fact, for one month.

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Yes, that's right, six US dollars per month.

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And you not only get all the premium content I've mentioned,

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but you also get to sleep deeply at night,

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safe in the knowledge that you are supporting this show,

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which is, well, this show is obviously something

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I do as a passion project amongst other things. It does currently still require subsidizing with

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my own personal time. However, my plan in the long term is to run it as an extremely profitable

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business and subscriptions on Fountain will certainly be a step in that direction. So please

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click the subscribe button on your Fountain app and commit to just six bucks a month. And did you

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know you can even pay with your fiat that's right dirty fiat i would prefer sats of course but if

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you would like to make a recurring payment from your bank account well go ahead and choose that

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option on fountain now if you don't want to subscribe don't worry i still appreciate you

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as a loyal listener you can still boost and stream sats to us and you will still be able to listen to

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part two of this interview. You will just have to wait seven days to do that right onto the show.

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I should say that if you're new to Ben, my guest, go and check out episode number 97 of this podcast,

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which was the last time I spoke with Ben back in September of last year. That episode has a lot of

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background on him and introductory stuff etc. Ben doesn't do a lot of interviews as you may know

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to date I think only four over the last few years. This may be his fifth. Don't quote me on that.

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Anyway this time I went up to his citadel in the Welsh mountains with nothing much in mind

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other than to as we say shoot the shit and see what happens. Those are my favourite types of

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Conversations, as you may well know well, the result did not disappoint.

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This was an excellent conversation.

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In part one, we explore key ideas around privacy, anonymity, digital identity and the evolving role of decentralized technologies like NOSTA and Bitcoin.

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You may not know, but Ben's planning to use NOSTA as a decentralized identity and access control system for his place in Wales, aiming to balance privacy, trust and, most importantly, accountability.

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We also touch on the broader themes of governance, digital freedom and what to expect if you choose to reside in the decentralized future.

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really hope you do. Come and join us. Come on. Part two of this conversation, which you'll need to

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subscribe on Fountain to listen to, is where it really gets going as far as I'm concerned. Probably

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my favorite conversation of the year so far, if not this whole podcast. This part critically

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examines Bitcoin's evolving role in the global economy. And if you know Ben, you'll know he

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doesn't mince his words. He's a no-nonsense talker. We dissect its utility, adoption barriers,

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political implications, and the broader philosophical meaning of the age which we are all living through.

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There's some phenomenal stuff here in the second two hours. Here's a few bullet points to get the

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juices flowing. Bitcoin's identity crisis and its polarised adoption in what's called a barbell

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economic way. Look that one up. The middle class squeeze, debt and leverage, governments and the

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mafia, the reality of Bitcoin versus the state and the state's slow motion looting of its citizens.

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Ben frames the baby boomer narrative in a phenomenal way that I'd never thought of before,

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resulting in his assertion that understanding demographic dynamics is key to navigating

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the future. We also talk about societal breakdown and reset, leadership morality,

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and Ben's vision for the future, including how to position yourself for the best path through this

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mayhem, which we can all see coming. In particular, and this is my takeaway from the whole conversation,

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this means finding the meaning in your life, my friends. Meaning is the key,

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and it's also in my opinion the key to real freedom my meaning partly is this podcast and

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i'm truly thankful that you come here each week to listen to the well let's call them weird and

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wonderful people that i love to seek out in this world many thanks from the bottom of my heart for

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supporting us take a look at the new features available on fountain.fm and join us if you're

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not on fountain already come and join the value for value community don't forget to check out my

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show sponsor also veritas village they're building an off-grid community of luxury homes built for

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freedom lovers just like you www.ecovillages.life forward slash free cities everything you need to

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know about all these things is in the show notes. Right, time for the man like Mr. Gunn.

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I suppose you should grab your favourite rocking chair, put it out there in the woods nearby,

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make sure your dog is tucked up nicely at your feet whilst you sit back, relax and enjoy part one

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of my conversation with Ben Gunn.

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okay nice one cheers welcome back thank you i think i'm going to prelude this episode by saying

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yes you are looking every now and then at a picture of a cartoon character of a ben gun

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no it's not the real ben gun obviously it's not even your your pseudonymous yes i think it's fair

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to say but interesting though because i quite like to talk about that because i've had that thought

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obviously i'm not obviously no um but in this day and age why be even anonymous i mean when you

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think about it right what's it protecting you against because um number one someone can identify

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you by your voice as easy as anything you know number two if i wanted to find out who you were

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even if i'd never met yeah exactly so what is the point of like hiding your face just out of interest

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it's deciding what the principle is and defining it so if it's privacy

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then being sued anonymous is a means to that end right and if then you say well do i believe in

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privacy as a principle and i think there's a lot of listeners who will and they know that everybody

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else will say that but then how do you express that because privacy it's a little bit like hygiene

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you know in the sense that there's a good practice to not be outright dirty which is to say you have

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curtains on your windows and you have a reasonable amount of privacy but if you take it to a to an

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extreme and become jason born digging a hole and live in a faraday cage it's the same as someone

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who can't stop washing their hands and it's got that same kind of profile where you never can do

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enough to be absolutely private but you can do something in the middle proportionately to support

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the truth the principle of it which is privacy and the idea of of my maybe not being filmed or

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going to the other side and just being public is because it's i'm quite small scale so it's not

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going to matter to there's an element of what I'm doing that is not about me so it's about the fact

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that anybody could do it and so therefore I don't need to be part of it and then there's this support

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and a principle where just being a little bit private and a little bit more difficult to find

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and not so easy to graph helps people who really get the benefit of the use of that graph where now

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they're having to be sorted through 10,000 people like me or 10 million people like me

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and they're in that and for people that do need to be private because their rights can't be enforced

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in the way mine are currently then that's all to the good and i don't want to be hidden or secretive

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because that identity still carries a reputation and so you can abstract that and you can you can

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use that as a way to build trust with people they don't need to know everything about you

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uh it's what nost is doing well and you can build up essentially legal like legal entities

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up on these end pubs now and they don't need to be a real name because they might have a reputation

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that is abstracted from that but i think in the future right how are we not gonna interact with

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all that stuff like and i'm thinking like i've just been to america right and it's it's

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it's different over there even more well it's definitely different from wales put it that way

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you know i got in a car and the whole thing lit up like a bloody google services this certainly

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other cameras pointing at me blah blah you know uh everywhere i went i was being monitored

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basically in that world and that's going to happen here we know it especially i think cars

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it's going to be very i'm already like on my old you're the same actually on my old truck i'm

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already paying more more tax more road tax than a normal car because it's old right yeah and that

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will keep going up keep until i'm i'm like why am i paying so much on the independence of that

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versus something that can be turned off i think true but what i'm saying is how are we in the

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future gonna stay anonymous like is it not we're not no so what do we do like what do you do

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particularly because you really don't like being identified necessarily or it's not you don't like

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being identified it's like you i think i get the sense you just want to be annoying to some people

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that want to know who you are you know what i mean and that that annoying part is a personal

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thing it's not that i use it and an ominous identity to be able to do that i think that

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the schism you've got in in bitcoin circles and and freedom forums is that we do mix up secrecy

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and privacy and and and privacy is just a level of dignity that you can have affairs inside of

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loops that are private and you can express yourself in them in their proper context

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and reveal them selectively or not and secrecy is where you are not visible to anybody for any

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reason and yet want to still interact and go back out onto a social graph to do business or for

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someone to invest trust in you and you've you're just like you've got a paper bag on your head and

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when that paper bag carries a reputation that you don't do what you say you can take it off throw it

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in the bin and put a new bag on and so i think people make mistakes when they mix up secrecy and

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privacy where secrecy could be it's a neutral good it's a way to hide yourself now that could

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be hide yourself so you can shoot somebody who you shouldn't be shooting or it could be hiding

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because you're trying to hide from someone who's trying to shoot you so to the degree that you can

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be hidden or revealed it's just a technique and it can be put towards good purposes and bad

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where the tug of war is going on is that we want the society's trying to push for people to be

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visible completely visible and it takes the choice of that away completely sometimes that freedom can

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be used for bad to collude to plan and coordinate on things that are just evil and they're the

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arguments made to reduce all freedoms but we shouldn't be using freedom and the ability to

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express yourself privately or publicly as the way to throttle down on bad behavior it's the bad

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behavior that's bad and the means to find that bumps up against free privacy and people have a

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gut check when they hear that they're like right so i've got to have an identity card now

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but that's obviously not just going to shut down criminality that's going to stay and now we're

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just going to be identified for other reasons like vaccines or extra taxes or a new level of

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regulation or to track what you think or say based on your internet profile that's linked to an id

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so it's nefarious and they use arguments adjacent arguments to open that door and people can see

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that this is neutral it can be used visibility is good total visibility is bad and people need

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the control of that and they need to have some level of personal dignity how though do you i

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mean let's face it most people out there in the world and i say out there because it feels like

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it's out there when you're here to this nice but most people out there in the world don't care

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and we'll just go along with it and be be tracked and be this be that so it's almost like you've

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only got you've you've got these two lives one where you're behind your wall walled garden or

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whatever citadel yeah and the other one when you go out in the world and you can't even be you can't

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even be anonymous out there because you stand out by trying to be anonymous so is that is that is

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that where we're at is it like citadels or nothing is it yeah it the pressure is pushing it there

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and it's making people have to decide um and i don't want to sound despondent but yeah the

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technology is fierce enough to sort of remove the even the ethical side of the argument if if a

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government can cheaply deploy something that monitors you very closely and there isn't enough

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will to press back on it as a population it's going to be enforced and i know that sounds terrible

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i just suppose you wait for whatever happens in that environment that doesn't happen healthily

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in a free society and then they'll get the consequences of it afterwards the problem is

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we're all carried along with our majorities and it doesn't matter if there's 10 of you and 60

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billion of 60 million other people you're you can't enforce that with with your own violence

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or with your own protect you can't do that i mean you're making the case for small independent

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jurisdictions with their own rules right there and i've always got to check myself when i because i

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I often come back to that again and again and again.

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And it's like,

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um,

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because,

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and it's not just because this is the free six podcast is because when you

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go down all the routes of the future,

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you discover this place where,

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like you say,

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technology will very cheaply monitor everything you do very cheaply.

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And even going in the future,

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there'll be little tiny little nano drones flying around.

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I don't know.

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Or whatever.

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But even,

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even what we can imagine,

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because it's already happening.

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if you go out into the real world yeah you have to try to not be tracked it's not that you you kind

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of like you know that you have to make a concerted effort to not be tracked so and you know within

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not being trackable it gets to a point where you're more visible like you said you're more

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visible by having no footprints than you are by having some that are obscured or along a lot of

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other footprints and that's the level of conviction i have in my private identity i could care less

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if I get quote unquote doxed or tracked down.

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It doesn't matter.

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I'm one hop away from finding out who I am

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because my work is out there facing the public

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and I don't really care that much.

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But it's just small steps that make a bigger anonymity set

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for people who really need it

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or people who might need it once.

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A sort of semi-obscured way to communicate.

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And I just hold it open for that.

209
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It's just a way to join a bigger group

210
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where some people in that group need to not be found

211
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or need to communicate in a context that isn't public and shouldn't be.

212
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And that's my part of it personally.

213
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But it's a complicated principle.

214
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It's complicated.

215
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,480
And we've got to try and go into the middle of the two extremes,

216
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which is complete secrecy,

217
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,640
where we cannot be sure of anything from a counterparty

218
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,240
we need to do business with or live around.

219
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,720
Because this is the other side of it for privacy people.

220
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:36,660
It's like, don't think that you can do what you want now

221
00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:39,400
because you've got a mask on, you can do what you want

222
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,460
and then drop away and you're in a different network.

223
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You just plug out like the matrix

224
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and you're not that guy anymore.

225
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,780
Because it sounds good, but you're going to stay hidden

226
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and people aren't going to see your values

227
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:53,440
because you can't show them anywhere that's public.

228
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,060
And you're going to be able to hide the bad aspects of you

229
00:20:57,060 --> 00:20:58,880
in a way other people can't see.

230
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So when we give up that visibility,

231
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,700
at its extreme the visibility is bad because people can take everything that you you are

232
00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:11,480
on the digital map and turn it to oh look what he did there and look what he said there

233
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but if you take it to the other extreme where everybody doesn't have any record of the other

234
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:22,640
person in their life we can't build up a pattern of good and bad behavior all right then so

235
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:31,400
correct me if i'm wrong but one of your sort of like methods slash theories is to use nosda as

236
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:39,380
identity yeah and okay so in in one sense you're you're basically and just a number

237
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so you are kind of you know slightly private and in it and everything you do is based upon

238
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,600
the connections you have with other people so you can you can be vouched for very easily even in an

239
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,940
anonymous way but the truth of that system even is once you throw enough computer power at it you

240
00:21:56,940 --> 00:22:03,420
can work out who's who and what who's doing what and everything so what's the what have we got just

241
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:19,361
do we just have to surrender to this idea that we going to be found out everything i think i think this without blowing the conversation up too much we at a time when there a lot in the headlines and sorry for the noise in the background no wait we at

242
00:22:19,361 --> 00:22:24,720
we're at a working sawmill yeah so amongst other things but i was just going to say that it's a

243
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really uncertain world and there's stuff going on in it that looks massive and stuff that we cannot

244
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even control uh or influence it's just it's just borderline nuclear war regional conflict and all

245
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,160
the rest of the misery and it's very hard to just think and take it back to your individual life and

246
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:47,200
try and work out you know oh what should i be like on the privacy and what should i be doing and

247
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,841
under that it's just very hard at the moment to make definitive decisions and it isn't something

248
00:22:52,841 --> 00:23:00,800
that i've thought a lot about i just had a avatar on twitter from years ago and just enjoyed that

249
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,940
kind of abstraction from me uh but understood it was more important to a group than it was to me

250
00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:12,940
and the individual and that's really where i fell out on privacy but it under under what we're seeing

251
00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:17,880
in the world i think it's one of those things as long as it's not one of the two extremes

252
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:26,140
and as long as gnostic and help i don't know record good behavior like an uber score and do

253
00:23:26,140 --> 00:23:31,960
it under certain rules and it doesn't need to enforce like black marks and nasty comments and

254
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,320
things but we do have to have some sort of decentralized review system and use these mpubs

255
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:42,660
as entities and they can be companies or they could be groups they could be guilds private and

256
00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:47,261
then using the same technology in bitcoin we can use that to control access to places

257
00:23:47,261 --> 00:23:55,580
physical places or or forums or connections with other people that goes by goodwill and that's just

258
00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:59,380
the way that we can make things cheaper because we don't have to interact with people who have got

259
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:05,861
a record of not pulling through on what they said uh it's where people wanted to put bitcoin directly

260
00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:12,841
they wanted bitcoin to be the court of law and okay you know i can't see court cases going onto

261
00:24:12,841 --> 00:24:18,521
the onto the time chain onto the base layer and i think nost is just a good it's the bitcoiner

262
00:24:18,521 --> 00:24:25,200
layer and i think it will come with accountability and i think that's the square that the

263
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:31,501
privacy absolutists if you call people if there are people like that is that yeah you've got you've

264
00:24:31,501 --> 00:24:34,920
got a right to hide and you've got a right to have some things that you keep to yourself

265
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,460
and that can be abused when they're given away that's all obvious but we've got to go more than

266
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:47,540
that if we go to the other extreme and just have total anonymous economic participants they're

267
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going to realize costs by not knowing who they're dealing with and that's a big loss that's as much

268
00:24:53,480 --> 00:25:01,300
a loss as having zero privacy so i just think that's how nostr is gonna divide the difference

269
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:07,841
and let you show a record of what you're best at and let it be verified in different ways by other

270
00:25:07,841 --> 00:25:13,861
people and it isn't that you have to have your whole life put up in spotlight because obviously

271
00:25:13,861 --> 00:25:18,220
that's being used to coerce people and threaten them to make decisions and things and introduce

272
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:22,660
an opinion they have in one area to the detriment of their life in another.

273
00:25:23,841 --> 00:25:25,580
And it just chills everybody down.

274
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:28,820
The same way that dealing with people who are completely secret would be,

275
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:30,960
not knowing who the other person is.

276
00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:34,120
You only need to know enough to transact.

277
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,080
If we're talking about capital allocation,

278
00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:39,640
we don't need to know everything about you.

279
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:41,861
And I don't need to know what you were like at your worst moment.

280
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:43,440
That's private.

281
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,320
so we need the tech that can enforce that stuff that is just group agreed that you have no right

282
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,440
to see and if you do see it we've got to be sensible enough to say that's taken out of

283
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,180
context because that was in a private group and you've just published it on a on a daily mail blog

284
00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:03,241
of course it's going to look terrible you've taken it out of the way it was said abstracted it

285
00:26:03,241 --> 00:26:08,841
and curated it and put it somewhere else to set mischief and that's harder to do when you've got

286
00:26:08,841 --> 00:26:15,640
this n-pub relay structure and all it's going to take is more development to take it from social

287
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:23,021
media uh clones like twitter and the type of stuff we see on nostr which is good and develop it so

288
00:26:23,021 --> 00:26:28,261
that you can put more scale and weight and more economic significance on it so we go from funny

289
00:26:28,261 --> 00:26:33,900
memes and zaps to prove the fact that we can swap content for money on a micro scale but when you go

290
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:37,960
up orders of magnitude in what we're trying to do and we talk about free cities and circular

291
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:44,920
economies and things it's not one degree more difficult to do something that you'll have to do

292
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:52,841
on on a jurisdiction that wants taxes and things done to regulations and things um i'm trying to

293
00:26:52,841 --> 00:26:56,841
do something in the middle and i'm trying to support these technologies as they come along

294
00:26:56,841 --> 00:27:05,900
and use them immediately when they are so i mean you in a way like is this correct i don't know

295
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:12,021
is this public knowledge that you would like this place to be,

296
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,341
like your ID to be verified by NOSTA to even come in and out?

297
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:16,781
Is that right?

298
00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:17,521
Yeah.

299
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,521
Yeah, yeah, okay, right.

300
00:27:18,841 --> 00:27:20,021
People know that, right?

301
00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:22,241
Well, it's not something I'd hide.

302
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,281
But it's a good experiment because it's...

303
00:27:25,281 --> 00:27:29,080
No, I've got to spend money in one place, right?

304
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,741
And it's security.

305
00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:32,380
So you can't have...

306
00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:33,980
It's rural Wales, so it's not...

307
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:36,601
it's not like downtown Baghdad,

308
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,001
but you also sometimes lose your quad bikes.

309
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,200
And sometimes you've got people on who are a nuisance,

310
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:43,680
who can visit because they can walk in the gate.

311
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,281
And you could see them or not see them,

312
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,440
but they've not booked an appointment.

313
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,480
And the minute they're on ground that you're responsible for,

314
00:27:50,580 --> 00:27:52,140
you're sort of legally responsible for them.

315
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,620
So you've got to buy a gate.

316
00:27:54,940 --> 00:27:56,001
And then you look at the tech

317
00:27:56,001 --> 00:27:59,200
and you've all these different proprietary systems,

318
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,361
20 pound a month, and they do your NFC.

319
00:28:01,361 --> 00:28:08,220
but NOSTA is doing it alongside open source and you can and it's it's translatable into other use

320
00:28:08,220 --> 00:28:14,480
cases so I might use NOSTA I might say to you right use your NSEC and I'll add you to a whitelist

321
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,580
and then you can just beep in with a signing device or something on this day and then when

322
00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:25,120
that window closes if you try and beep it there's no one home and that's a great use case but that

323
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:30,601
same NPUB that does access control you know under another use case let's say we develop badges

324
00:28:30,601 --> 00:28:34,400
and I say, right, it's cheaper for me to be a host of people who've got first aid training.

325
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:40,480
Do I need to know where you did it? No. I need to see a badge associated to your end pub that says

326
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,300
you've done first aid. And I need that badge to be issued by someone who's known and verified to

327
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:48,460
do good first aid training. And they've said, right, you did a course with us. You're a good

328
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:52,540
bloke. You didn't kick off and you'd listen to what we'd said and you've got a skill you didn't

329
00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:58,720
have stamp. And it makes the, it makes the privileges I can give here cheap to give out.

330
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:06,101
but if we did total secrecy who are you mate don't know you from adam well trust me it's like

331
00:29:06,101 --> 00:29:11,420
well hang on a minute we were doing trust a minute ago and now we're going to go total maximal

332
00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:15,560
privacy where we don't know anybody where anybody's from or what they do or they can't show anything

333
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:22,200
about themselves that's makes things expensive again to host so nostre if we develop on nostre

334
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,261
for access control we've got a nostre user that can use the other suite of tools in nostre

335
00:29:27,261 --> 00:29:32,040
along different use cases that are common to a site, this site and others.

336
00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:36,640
All around the world, someone will need, if they've got a location,

337
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:39,880
they need to know who that other person is on their development.

338
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,880
Now that's like, oh God, what, you've got an ID system?

339
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:45,440
Yeah, we've got an ID system.

340
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,320
So it's not Chinese social credit score stuff.

341
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,140
It's identification.

342
00:29:53,781 --> 00:29:56,320
I suppose that's the middle of these two extremes.

343
00:29:57,261 --> 00:29:59,841
is that you don't want to be identified, over-identified,

344
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,021
where your entire transcript of your life is stood up in light

345
00:30:03,021 --> 00:30:05,021
against its purpose.

346
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:07,420
And you don't want to be a complete black hat.

347
00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:09,400
Because you can't get anywhere.

348
00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:11,220
You'd always be meeting an interaction

349
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:14,540
at someone else's maximum defensiveness, right?

350
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:18,660
So, you all right?

351
00:30:19,220 --> 00:30:21,021
Yeah, sorry, that's flashing.

352
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,241
Never seen that flash before.

353
00:30:22,241 --> 00:30:23,580
As long as I'm not flashing.

354
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,101
We were talking about NOSTA.

355
00:30:27,261 --> 00:30:36,220
identity and you said um you know it's very this isn't a kind of chinese style

356
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:44,041
you know governance system right blah blah but right it it's not that dissimilar to it

357
00:30:44,041 --> 00:30:47,620
no it's not that dissimilar to it right it's not now check this out because i had this really

358
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:53,880
interesting conversation in america about a couple of few months ago with this guy ian underwood his

359
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,620
name was he's a libertarian in new hampshire lives out on a homestead in the middle of the woods it's

360
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:07,341
amazing you'd love it out there and he had he told me about this new way of governing that he thought

361
00:31:07,341 --> 00:31:12,720
no one had sort of like mentioned before and it's quite incredible and it's actually probably

362
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:18,761
the way few the way forward but when we were talking about it i noticed the same thing that he

363
00:31:18,761 --> 00:31:23,480
that we are just thinking about there is that oh shit this is quite near the social credit system

364
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,281
I'll give you an example. His idea was you have everyone basically decides.

365
00:31:29,580 --> 00:31:35,741
He said this is a cure for the democratic system, which basically means like you vote for mob rule.

366
00:31:35,980 --> 00:31:39,880
Yeah, you vote for the difference. You vote for someone and half the people lose out.

367
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:48,241
Why don't you turn it back the other way? Why don't you say you can decide what you want to vote, but not geographically you vote.

368
00:31:48,241 --> 00:31:54,861
so if you want to say you believe in um free health care right so you just so you just assign

369
00:31:54,861 --> 00:31:59,501
yourself to that party and you pay into that party for free health care but you don't do it

370
00:31:59,501 --> 00:32:06,361
geographically you do it you do one country it's a good uh way to it's like a it's like a rhetorical

371
00:32:06,361 --> 00:32:12,021
way of understanding two things better but it's not a viable way to run an area no but you could

372
00:32:12,021 --> 00:32:17,140
do it like follow it follow it because i'll tell you why sorry i'll tell you why because the because

373
00:32:17,140 --> 00:32:20,820
the people that sign up for free health care don't pay for it yeah i know but that's the thing it

374
00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:24,880
would it would it was a be a free market in governance so those those kind of ideas would

375
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,021
disappear they're not voting because they have the choice to buy health care or not they just

376
00:32:29,021 --> 00:32:33,140
want the principal it does voting because you get it for free if they vote and they don't get it yeah

377
00:32:33,140 --> 00:32:38,501
but the point is if you really are say you're in america if you're really a democrat and you really

378
00:32:38,501 --> 00:32:44,180
believe in free health care for example you're willing to pay into the system so you don't but

379
00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:48,761
now you don't you don't vote to get your guy in and force everyone to pay into the system

380
00:32:48,761 --> 00:32:54,021
you just get all the democrats to pay into the system and they basically identify themselves

381
00:32:54,021 --> 00:32:59,620
because it's very technologically it's very easy now so so you you don't need a geographical

382
00:32:59,620 --> 00:33:06,960
boundary to your you know your political sphere the democratic model works by setting

383
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,940
the majority against minorities in turn yeah we're not doing a democratic model here we're

384
00:33:12,940 --> 00:33:18,101
doing everyone so everyone has an identity so you have an identity say you have a nostril identity

385
00:33:18,101 --> 00:33:23,460
and in that identity you say what you believe in and what you're prepared to do and if you go if

386
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:28,200
you go against that so say in your identity it says i will not steal if you steal then you get

387
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,460
punished if you don't steal everything's fine um if you believe in free health care because you want

388
00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:38,041
free healthcare at some point then you say yeah i'm willing to pay into that system and you're

389
00:33:38,041 --> 00:33:43,241
like cool so you're you're you agree to those ideas but you might be dispersed amongst your

390
00:33:43,241 --> 00:33:46,820
neighbor over there may not he's like no i don't i don't actually want to pay into that system

391
00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:56,140
and and um every everyone has a unique id which basically carries with it what what they believe

392
00:33:56,140 --> 00:33:59,361
in and what they want to do and how they want to operate in the world and everyone gets what they

393
00:33:59,361 --> 00:34:05,301
want basically why because the people that want free healthcare can't afford to deliver free

394
00:34:05,301 --> 00:34:10,120
healthcare even to themselves let alone to the majority yeah but wouldn't theoretically there'd

395
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,820
be enough people that believe in it no right in that case free healthcare is not a good idea

396
00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:19,660
correct right exactly but that's how that's a good system we're not here because it's the best idea

397
00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:26,440
we're here because it's the easiest enforced they can you can you can abstract 80 of your rights

398
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:34,160
you're born with into a voting box for a four-year renewable promise to be treated well when you're

399
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:42,120
ill and they go for it or you could invest some money wisely as an individual and you would have

400
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:48,400
enough money to pay for your health care yourself no no but i mean like you could do that if you

401
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:54,460
wanted to yeah but then all but that that incentive to invest is taken away from your taxes which pay

402
00:34:54,460 --> 00:34:59,620
So you're charged to win and you're given 100% of the right to lose.

403
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,720
But in this system, taxes are almost non-existent because you can choose whether or not you pay them.

404
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:14,180
You can be someone, all you have to pay for is the upkeep of the system because the system is basically very cheap to upkeep.

405
00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:15,720
It doesn't need a huge amount of bureaucracy.

406
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:26,880
No, you have to pay for the cost of defending that from a next door state or next door town that are like, well, that's not going to work for us.

407
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:29,360
So why don't we just go and brass them up?

408
00:35:29,581 --> 00:35:29,660
Right.

409
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,640
But that might be the one thing you pay for.

410
00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:33,380
Well, that's what you pay for in government.

411
00:35:33,561 --> 00:35:34,420
It's a set menu.

412
00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:37,041
Your health care and stuff, that's like political preference.

413
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,840
But what you're really connected to is the peace of mind.

414
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:42,041
You're not being invaded right now.

415
00:35:42,581 --> 00:35:42,960
Right.

416
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,360
But when you look at it.

417
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,081
And when you pay for that, it can enforce all of the other things that majorities want in that.

418
00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:51,521
Yeah, but I agree.

419
00:35:51,640 --> 00:36:00,001
You might want to pay for that one thing, which is the protection of private property anyway, or rights, some kind of rights that you deem are rights.

420
00:36:00,541 --> 00:36:02,501
The rest of it is a choice.

421
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:09,760
The rest of it is a choice, like the health care, the way the schools, the funding of schools, the things, the that, the rest of it is a choice.

422
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:19,501
And as a free market, what should transpire over the long term is quite a properly kind of democratic so far.

423
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:31,940
You're talking about a partnership, like an old-fashioned equity partnership where votes are done to form consensus, but they're prorated against your stake in whatever your entity's voting on.

424
00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:44,780
So, you know, old Goldman Sachs, old banks, 20 partners, each, let's say, each has 5% stake and their votes represent five in every hundred votes on a particular issue.

425
00:36:44,780 --> 00:36:47,820
And then it's done on majority there.

426
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:56,940
But that's a fairer form of majority because it's not nominal, like just a show at hands who thinks that we should burn the teachers and not pay them anything and give them money to the police.

427
00:36:56,940 --> 00:37:01,220
like that's a different format than all the partners having equity

428
00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:03,180
and long-term upside in that system.

429
00:37:03,820 --> 00:37:08,581
We're breaking here because people aren't brave enough

430
00:37:08,581 --> 00:37:11,960
or intelligent enough perhaps to understand

431
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,420
that this way of getting things done is terrible.

432
00:37:17,041 --> 00:37:18,081
As in the democratic system.

433
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,101
The democratic system and the way it's funded

434
00:37:20,101 --> 00:37:24,460
and the purposes it's turned to, often to them.

435
00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:31,260
uh i just think we're in a very low courage very low confrontational mindset take that all right

436
00:37:31,260 --> 00:37:37,460
take your idea of using nostor to be an identity and finding a middle ground then in it where you're

437
00:37:38,081 --> 00:37:45,180
private enough but not too private yeah when that scales say say for some reason it scales

438
00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:50,340
say it's not just a bunch of well maybe you think it is do you think it'll scale

439
00:37:50,340 --> 00:37:57,300
I think it'll definitely have to scale because it's got the lowest route to...

440
00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:00,820
You've got a right to use it without any requirements.

441
00:38:01,780 --> 00:38:03,860
And the other thing is it's not mutually exclusive.

442
00:38:04,081 --> 00:38:06,300
You're not saying, right, pick up NOSTA and burn your passport.

443
00:38:07,101 --> 00:38:11,581
This is an extra sort of form of membership, sort of a form of a LinkedIn.

444
00:38:12,481 --> 00:38:15,640
And you get an Uber score and you live and die on your reputation.

445
00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:19,400
And it's okay to record that as long as it's pre-agreed.

446
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,340
and NOSTA's open. You don't have to associate any activity to your NOSTA profile. If you want to

447
00:38:24,340 --> 00:38:30,360
post cats and get zapped and have a bit of fun and just show a tiny little bit of yourself,

448
00:38:30,481 --> 00:38:34,300
just a couple of funny posts, it doesn't have to be anything to do with you. That's one end pub.

449
00:38:34,981 --> 00:38:40,880
But what about the one where you're a plumber? Do you want to have a secret plumber

450
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:46,840
who's got a type of work that could manifest itself as poor in six months or more?

451
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:53,120
no i want to i want to go on google i want to search by average review on amazon i want to

452
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,380
speak to people i want anecdotal evidence i want to hear both sides of a blow up and i've got to

453
00:38:59,380 --> 00:39:05,660
decide like how much risk do i put on that counterparty and this is a way to show the

454
00:39:05,660 --> 00:39:11,981
aspects of your character that you want to market or show in these subsets of groups or into the

455
00:39:11,981 --> 00:39:18,440
public on a broad relay or in a group within nostr where you sort of have an access to it and you can

456
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,780
make comments and do activity in the context of that private group that's exciting because it's

457
00:39:23,780 --> 00:39:30,460
not that hard to do as far as code and it hacks quite a lot of bitcoin's technology except proof

458
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:36,700
of work and finite supply and it keeps the encryption side and we can build quite a lot

459
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:41,300
on that i mean i'm talking about utilities for real economy and the only difference between that

460
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:45,780
and a social credit system is it's decentralized if decentralized it's peer-to-peer as opposed to

461
00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:52,740
hub and spoke where the central panopticon maintainer of the database that sits you know

462
00:39:52,740 --> 00:39:59,001
under westminster or under uh washington or wherever and they just make pseudo admin changes

463
00:39:59,001 --> 00:40:04,220
to who you are based on the situation as it changes and what you think of it um and you don't

464
00:40:04,220 --> 00:40:08,320
get to choose what's being recorded like that's another big thing isn't it like on nosty like set

465
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,200
you could have a setting you could have different accounts and it's like don't track my location

466
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,200
whereas what they want is the all or nothing they want right you did slide d anything but up to

467
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:22,920
basically a tattoo on your head so you can be recognized wherever you are and and once you're

468
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,641
in your own front door it doesn't stop there because it's ring doorbells and it's alexas and

469
00:40:27,641 --> 00:40:31,200
it's all mapped and that's what that's what they want and they'll take it because they can

470
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,160
because no one else is going to fight back on it.

471
00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:39,061
So basically, it will arise inevitably

472
00:40:39,061 --> 00:40:42,641
in the same way that decentralized money is inevitable.

473
00:40:43,141 --> 00:40:43,581
Inevitable.

474
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,521
So decentralized identity is inevitable.

475
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:47,001
Yes.

476
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,601
It's the cheapest to deliver on the problem

477
00:40:49,601 --> 00:40:51,900
of transacting with other people

478
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:54,200
without the centralized court

479
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,960
and without the social credit system.

480
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,581
What's the cheapest to deliver way

481
00:40:57,581 --> 00:41:00,820
for you to reveal an aspect of yourself

482
00:41:00,820 --> 00:41:06,340
that can't be forged that lets someone else make a decision to take risk with you

483
00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:11,541
or for you to take risk with them and then you're into commerce you're into commerce you're into

484
00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:18,101
contracts and bills of credit and you can build end pubs up with transcripts of quasi public so

485
00:41:18,101 --> 00:41:23,141
we did a contract did you get to see the price of it no did you get to see the nature of a contract

486
00:41:23,141 --> 00:41:28,820
yes and can you see what both parties said about it very similar like to a peer-to-peer bitcoin

487
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:33,581
exchange if you were to go on one of the big ones like peach uh then if that's big or not but it's

488
00:41:33,581 --> 00:41:39,860
a nice one yeah hodl hodl bisque they all have reputation systems they have to because it makes

489
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:46,960
things so precipitously cheaper if you prove that you do that side of an escrow consistently and you

490
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,121
don't push things into into the grievance the mediation or the governance system of swapping

491
00:41:52,121 --> 00:41:58,880
money so you just extend that into social interactions and into certifications for

492
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,260
instance for people you can demonstrate a competence or a capability something you're

493
00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:07,880
good at something you're professionally good at hobbyist and it's combination of badges to

494
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:13,780
confirm certifications which is just a decentralized same way that you get university degrees and

495
00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:18,920
qualifications for adventure training and stuff like that you just do it on NOSTA with badges

496
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:25,601
isn't though the centralized version more efficient because it's it's a it's as in

497
00:42:25,601 --> 00:42:32,061
yeah more efficient basically you know in a way it depends what you're what you're what you're

498
00:42:32,061 --> 00:42:37,481
it depends like efficient for i mean if it's if it's well let's let's look at an efficient hub

499
00:42:37,481 --> 00:42:43,081
and spoke identity system because i have a small background in diving in scuba diving

500
00:42:43,081 --> 00:42:50,240
and look these are plastic cards that come out in the mail from Paddy and from these they're great

501
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:57,001
until you dive with a Chinese guy who's got fewer dives in his logbook than the minimum entry

502
00:42:57,001 --> 00:43:03,260
requirements for the badge he's got to get on the boat it can't manage his buoyancy and then it's

503
00:43:03,260 --> 00:43:09,621
not efficient then and the way that Nostra improves on that is that it becomes it's a matter

504
00:43:09,621 --> 00:43:17,780
of fidelity you can go an extra step with NOSTA and prove not perfectly but prove well that

505
00:43:17,780 --> 00:43:21,940
something went down the way it went down and peer-to-peer keeps that more honest than us

506
00:43:21,940 --> 00:43:27,720
hub and the hub and spoke thing oh yeah we've got some certification mill problems yeah you've got

507
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:34,320
people double spending your certification stamp and the the quality of that to the people who

508
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:41,380
get the cost of it which is the introduced scuba instructor or guide have to roll the dice to the

509
00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:48,260
degree that sir is could be milled or it could be not quite legit in the dive that you're taking

510
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:52,260
your life to take people out onto the ocean on and i imagine that would be the same with welding

511
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:57,720
qualifications and structural engineering and all sorts of things that are issued out of a tower

512
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,400
that still have a low fidelity

513
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,981
compared to just proof of work

514
00:44:02,981 --> 00:44:04,660
and progress and transcript

515
00:44:04,660 --> 00:44:06,581
and doing things by practice.

516
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,041
And we can record all that on NOSTA.

517
00:44:09,380 --> 00:44:11,021
And it's going to sit wrong on people

518
00:44:11,021 --> 00:44:11,940
because some people are like,

519
00:44:11,981 --> 00:44:13,440
I'm not going to show myself on there.

520
00:44:13,561 --> 00:44:14,061
I don't know.

521
00:44:14,141 --> 00:44:14,820
I'm not going to show.

522
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:16,001
And it's like, hang on a minute then.

523
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:18,300
Because you get to keep the choice

524
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:35,541
and you won show any part of you that will stand up to scrutiny in any community small or big maybe you not as good as you say you are Maybe you just going from group to group and emptying pockets or telling fibs and moving on like a gypsy

525
00:44:36,541 --> 00:44:47,801
And you're getting away with it because it's the downside of a privacy argument which can be turned left into total secrecy or right into total visibility.

526
00:44:47,801 --> 00:44:52,941
and the issue in the middle is identity so we capture them bits that we get the benefit of

527
00:44:52,941 --> 00:44:59,761
identifying another person and we take it out of that low end scale of friends and you know that

528
00:44:59,761 --> 00:45:06,541
sort of informal way to identify somebody and try and extend it so i can get a good impression of

529
00:45:06,541 --> 00:45:11,081
somebody at distance that i can make a reasonable decision to interact with them and have an

530
00:45:11,081 --> 00:45:16,061
expectation that's going to make things cheap and it's going to mean we can do things at bigger scale

531
00:45:16,061 --> 00:45:22,041
of economy than we do at the moment, like a hackathon, blog post, one-man band, one-man

532
00:45:22,041 --> 00:45:28,361
armies, which go by well on total secrecy or the right to. But if you're trying to build

533
00:45:28,361 --> 00:45:32,641
up to bigger levels of investment, you're trying to do bigger things, bigger things

534
00:45:32,641 --> 00:45:39,001
at scale, you need to have more surety. I think it'll come through as well in insurance

535
00:45:39,001 --> 00:45:43,741
because the other thing that building up a profile on NOSTA would allow you to do is

536
00:45:43,741 --> 00:45:49,241
prove that you've lowered an average risk in whatever you're asking to be covered by

537
00:45:49,241 --> 00:45:56,781
and insurance is a good pricing mechanism for the types of risks that we take you know so if you've

538
00:45:56,781 --> 00:46:01,821
got a good track record like having a no claims bonus nobody's screaming at the rooftops because

539
00:46:01,821 --> 00:46:07,401
the insurance companies know how many years it's gone since you've left last crashed no one's

540
00:46:07,401 --> 00:46:11,841
arguing that that should be private data and the reason is because everyone understands it's like

541
00:46:11,841 --> 00:46:12,441
ah I get it

542
00:46:12,441 --> 00:46:13,421
if you can prove

543
00:46:13,421 --> 00:46:14,361
you don't crash your car

544
00:46:14,361 --> 00:46:16,241
you get your insurance quote down

545
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:17,781
and you get my insurance quote down

546
00:46:17,781 --> 00:46:18,761
so that's alright

547
00:46:18,761 --> 00:46:19,641
it doesn't mean

548
00:46:19,641 --> 00:46:21,221
but they want to put a tracker

549
00:46:21,221 --> 00:46:21,921
in your car though

550
00:46:21,921 --> 00:46:23,261
to track you

551
00:46:23,261 --> 00:46:24,301
to work out

552
00:46:24,301 --> 00:46:25,221
whether you're going too fast

553
00:46:25,221 --> 00:46:26,001
it's this constant argument

554
00:46:26,001 --> 00:46:26,661
like there's a

555
00:46:26,661 --> 00:46:27,461
there's a good reason

556
00:46:27,461 --> 00:46:28,481
to have a tracker in your car

557
00:46:28,481 --> 00:46:29,721
if it gets robbed

558
00:46:29,721 --> 00:46:30,501
it's easier to find

559
00:46:30,501 --> 00:46:31,461
like if you're an insurer

560
00:46:31,461 --> 00:46:32,881
tracking your car

561
00:46:32,881 --> 00:46:34,281
it might not be nefarious

562
00:46:34,281 --> 00:46:35,541
on one aspect of it

563
00:46:35,541 --> 00:46:37,141
but the ugly part

564
00:46:37,141 --> 00:46:38,481
is when they take good reasons

565
00:46:38,481 --> 00:46:40,601
to have tech do things

566
00:46:40,601 --> 00:46:46,821
and smush them in to a set menu where in a click of a finger or the change of a boss,

567
00:46:47,101 --> 00:46:50,361
they can use that same map to attack somebody.

568
00:46:51,641 --> 00:46:53,901
Having sold it to them as something that will defend them,

569
00:46:54,261 --> 00:46:57,021
which is put a tracker in your car, get your insurance quote down.

570
00:46:57,021 --> 00:47:00,321
Because when it gets robbed, we can track it and you can prove to us live

571
00:47:00,321 --> 00:47:04,481
that you're not going 80 mile an hour around the B roads as a 17 year old.

572
00:47:04,621 --> 00:47:05,321
That's not that.

573
00:47:05,521 --> 00:47:07,261
That's how we get your insurance quote down, mate.

574
00:47:07,321 --> 00:47:09,001
If you don't like that, it's five grand a year.

575
00:47:09,001 --> 00:47:14,061
and if you don't like that it's because look at the statistics for children who crash cars

576
00:47:14,061 --> 00:47:20,041
at your age your front your brain's not connected to the back till you're 24 so it's a box in your

577
00:47:20,041 --> 00:47:24,901
car in it so there's a validity in that but then you get caught on the wrong side of it it's like

578
00:47:24,901 --> 00:47:29,961
ah you want people tracked it's like well no i don't want people tracked i want to track what

579
00:47:29,961 --> 00:47:34,461
they're doing when i'm underwriting the risk of it i don't need to know what that guy's politics

580
00:47:34,461 --> 00:47:37,901
are to throw them out of the insurance market so I don't need the rest of it.

581
00:47:38,501 --> 00:47:42,161
And I think Nostas are just a really readily available

582
00:47:42,161 --> 00:47:46,481
back end to build these utilities on the front end and people can pick

583
00:47:46,481 --> 00:47:50,301
to what level they're visible and how much they connect one thing

584
00:47:50,301 --> 00:47:53,341
to another in their life.

585
00:47:53,341 --> 00:47:57,641
You can be private in the things that should be private

586
00:47:57,641 --> 00:48:00,821
and you can be public in the things that we benefit from being public in.

587
00:48:00,821 --> 00:48:07,661
and that's the that's the middle i think of this whole issue about privacy and secrecy

588
00:48:07,661 --> 00:48:12,941
and and you can argue both ends and the extremes of it kind of comes around to the same problem

589
00:48:12,941 --> 00:48:22,881
so does it begin in this world in these kind of and then become adopted and does it ever

590
00:48:22,881 --> 00:48:32,261
become adopted on the scale of what you know the the the opposing thing being id cards does it ever

591
00:48:32,261 --> 00:48:38,481
get adopted at that scale or is it always this parallel system where people use bitcoin more

592
00:48:38,481 --> 00:48:47,581
people use privacy tools more people use noster more you know the i think the the truths of any

593
00:48:47,581 --> 00:48:52,541
of the issues are where the world's trying to pull to so what i mean by that is if we did go

594
00:48:52,541 --> 00:48:59,901
full china there's still a pressure in that society to be free and it goes somewhere and i

595
00:48:59,901 --> 00:49:05,181
think that's where the situation is the least sustainable i don't think a chinese total totality

596
00:49:05,181 --> 00:49:12,361
model is an end game it's a it's it's necessarily fragile and the problem with them is that will go

597
00:49:12,361 --> 00:49:16,941
down and it will fall in on itself one day and when it does there'll be total collapse after it

598
00:49:16,941 --> 00:49:22,381
and i suppose the other side of it is we can't all live in sort of hobbit holes and

599
00:49:22,381 --> 00:49:28,281
not not not engage and do anything or take risk because you're not really realizing the potential

600
00:49:28,281 --> 00:49:33,901
of your identity of like who you are as a person you're not going to get there if you're constantly

601
00:49:33,901 --> 00:49:38,901
defending yourself and we're we're just going to go through the middle of it and all these attempts

602
00:49:38,901 --> 00:49:46,861
to be free they'll manifest as extremes they'll manifest as events these sort of volatility blips

603
00:49:46,861 --> 00:49:51,941
that point out where we're missing the truth of something and we're delivering a system that

604
00:49:51,941 --> 00:49:58,781
steers away from it and it'll just have to play out some some organizations are trying to go in

605
00:49:58,781 --> 00:50:04,021
at the top down and then approach a government get the government top cover for their project

606
00:50:04,021 --> 00:50:10,001
where it's free over here and we'll just have to trust that that entity will follow through on

607
00:50:10,001 --> 00:50:14,921
what they've agreed with and then you've got bottom up which is it always risks being

608
00:50:14,921 --> 00:50:23,761
a little bit larpy you know part-time anarchism and but living on the suburbs of uh fiat developed

609
00:50:23,761 --> 00:50:29,641
country and just sort of moonlighting on the weekends uh being a being a sort of edward snowden

610
00:50:29,641 --> 00:50:35,801
and not really having any impact so it's hard to draw the middle and i think all these projects

611
00:50:35,801 --> 00:50:40,201
are trying to do it in a different way obviously a lot in bitcoin and free cities is grassroots

612
00:50:40,201 --> 00:50:45,581
So it's people have deep convictions and have to live in an environment that's not the same values.

613
00:50:47,141 --> 00:50:48,561
Do you abdicate that?

614
00:50:49,041 --> 00:50:57,041
And you're just like the black sheep in a society and making comments on it and sort of adapting to it.

615
00:50:58,001 --> 00:51:02,581
Or what, revolutionary guerrilla warfare or something?

616
00:51:02,901 --> 00:51:05,161
No, it's not that either.

617
00:51:05,161 --> 00:51:12,421
and I think the pressure just to transact freely and get things cheaper and make things better

618
00:51:12,421 --> 00:51:17,941
quality and give people what they want is just going to force a path through the middle and

619
00:51:17,941 --> 00:51:24,841
that's why I like the NOSTA stuff so much. You could argue that it might follow the same trajectory

620
00:51:24,841 --> 00:51:32,701
as Bitcoin which was quite larpy to begin with you could you could say and now we sit at this

621
00:51:32,701 --> 00:51:42,401
moment in history when it's bizarre i remember you know one news article about bitcoin coming out

622
00:51:42,401 --> 00:51:46,561
like yeah eight years ago and going off and it being a big deal just to get a mention in a

623
00:51:46,561 --> 00:51:51,401
newspaper right it was just this remarkable same feeling by the way same sort of disorienting like

624
00:51:51,401 --> 00:51:57,301
what i've just heard that from and like eight pieces of news every day about about something

625
00:51:57,301 --> 00:52:02,561
weird happening you know like we take a 24-hour snapshot just for everyone to remember inside a

626
00:52:02,561 --> 00:52:09,101
24 hours we've had Israel bombing the tar out of Iran's nuclear facilities we've had the US Nimitz

627
00:52:09,101 --> 00:52:16,001
carrier strategic group move away from Taiwan towards the Middle East that's that's huge stuff

628
00:52:16,001 --> 00:52:24,261
we've had a Bitcoin venture capital sorry a gold miner VC based in UK move into Bitcoin mining

629
00:52:24,261 --> 00:52:28,321
just only a constellation of events inside of one little slither of time

630
00:52:28,321 --> 00:52:34,321
gold miners are becoming bitcoin miners in the year that the the america the u.s created a bitcoin

631
00:52:34,321 --> 00:52:41,681
strategic reverse yeah um within two years of the biggest head fund in the world creating the biggest

632
00:52:41,681 --> 00:52:47,061
etf in history yeah i mean it's all a bit like it's almost like a joke now it's almost like well

633
00:52:47,061 --> 00:52:50,761
if you nothing nothing matters you're trying to track the path of something that's sort of like

634
00:52:50,761 --> 00:52:55,721
the cousin of bitcoin the younger cousin of bitcoin i think in nostor it's not the same it's not like

635
00:52:55,721 --> 00:53:00,621
brother sister because it lacks vital aspects of bitcoin but it's just it's a network that's not

636
00:53:00,621 --> 00:53:07,541
optimized to be money it's a network to optimized for the user of bitcoin it's the bootloader for

637
00:53:07,541 --> 00:53:14,501
the user of the emergent tech which was bitcoin so we got our money right before we found a way

638
00:53:14,501 --> 00:53:20,681
for us to interact with it safely bitcoin's fine bitcoin doesn't care about the battle groups

639
00:53:20,681 --> 00:53:26,941
not much it doesn't care about the this or that things that affect bitcoiners bitcoiners are still

640
00:53:26,941 --> 00:53:32,941
in big trouble we're still carbon and we're still subject to the laws of violence we can still be

641
00:53:32,941 --> 00:53:39,261
coerced we can still be threatened there's a massive spike in bitcoin kidnappings crypto

642
00:53:39,261 --> 00:53:46,181
kidnappings uh ledger ceo got shut down for five million quid with it just a straight up robbery

643
00:53:46,181 --> 00:53:51,841
so that bitcoin didn't care like the bitcoin was all safe it didn't crack the encryption of bitcoin

644
00:53:51,841 --> 00:53:56,241
they didn't interrupt the mining supply they didn't change the amount of nodes pointing this

645
00:53:56,241 --> 00:54:02,941
way or that bitcoin is fine the problem is that we we are using it and it's the only reason it

646
00:54:02,941 --> 00:54:08,381
exists is to serve us and we can't interact with it as safely as it can interact with itself it's

647
00:54:08,381 --> 00:54:14,081
abstract it's completely digital and abstract and that's great but it's over there we just

648
00:54:14,081 --> 00:54:19,581
just having that asset it's a big deal because it's an ultimate right of property isn't it you

649
00:54:19,581 --> 00:54:26,001
no one else can destroy that ownership but they can still definitely have fun with you and the

650
00:54:26,001 --> 00:54:31,841
demand and the implications of good money that can't be used at scale because we're still trying

651
00:54:31,841 --> 00:54:38,781
to use it on a fiat map that has regulations and taxes and orders by violence force things that are

652
00:54:38,781 --> 00:54:45,261
majority popular but aren't true huge issues things that push costs into the future health

653
00:54:45,261 --> 00:54:50,321
care everyone has a right to free health care but it's always on the generation that's not been born

654
00:54:50,321 --> 00:54:55,681
yet to pay so that's why we're generous we're just eating our own grandchildren to get kidney

655
00:54:55,681 --> 00:55:02,081
dialysis today and it's gross the reason is the money isn't enforced in the analog world

656
00:55:02,081 --> 00:55:08,821
it's a perfect principle and it can be perfect because it's digital it has zero grams of weight

657
00:55:08,821 --> 00:55:13,961
without stating the obvious you can't stab it and you can't destroy it

658
00:55:13,961 --> 00:55:19,021
and that's already happened in a way that already come out the canon and it's already

659
00:55:19,021 --> 00:55:23,381
been adapted to the world has it completely shattered the system it's in no it's kind of

660
00:55:23,381 --> 00:55:29,441
warped it the the system can't destroy it so it has to adapt to it it's like a it's like skin

661
00:55:29,441 --> 00:55:35,921
going around a splinter or something so it's adapting bitcoin's not ubiquitous they have got

662
00:55:35,921 --> 00:55:41,881
control over aspects of it bottlenecks and flows but they haven't defeated it and it doesn't feel

663
00:55:41,881 --> 00:55:48,481
captured and now we've got nostos of what three five ten years behind it it's hard to tell but

664
00:55:48,481 --> 00:55:55,321
like in the in the in the street in the what you call it the stream like in behind bitcoin benefiting

665
00:55:55,321 --> 00:56:00,021
from what and we also get the look at what where did we stop where did bitcoin stop where was

666
00:56:00,021 --> 00:56:06,521
bitcoin attacked along the way and we can sort of have a guess at where nosta will go based on where

667
00:56:06,521 --> 00:56:12,001
bitcoin is and i think that's gonna i think that's where it's aiming at it's aiming at this middle

668
00:56:12,001 --> 00:56:18,901
economy this real economy and it's saying okay this is interesting um here's bitcoin i log in

669
00:56:18,901 --> 00:56:24,201
with that and i move utxtos here's nosta i log in with that with the exact same encryption and i post

670
00:56:24,201 --> 00:56:29,161
notes and they're informal and there's an unlimited amount of them but you know they're from me and no

671
00:56:29,161 --> 00:56:34,801
one else can send them and we just build on that but where it builds to like lego is out of social

672
00:56:34,801 --> 00:56:38,881
media accounts and you follow your mate who's a funny guy or the guy who just checks in every now

673
00:56:38,881 --> 00:56:45,001
and then and you follow a business and you follow them to look at their history and decide whether

674
00:56:45,001 --> 00:56:51,421
you want their product or not and the more that that business can show that's provable and at high

675
00:56:51,421 --> 00:56:56,841
fidelity instead of just marketing bump and the more it's punished for doing poor products leaving

676
00:56:56,841 --> 00:57:02,201
people worse off than they find them i don't think that's an erosion of privacy at all i think that's

677
00:57:02,201 --> 00:57:06,961
highlighting exactly what you're meant to highlight in a productive economy what you're good at what

678
00:57:06,961 --> 00:57:12,101
will you come through and do and what does it cost you not to because you only have to cock one thing

679
00:57:12,101 --> 00:57:19,901
up to not have that reputation anymore as we know so that's what nostril do it'll allow us to scale

680
00:57:19,901 --> 00:57:24,401
to hire projects than one person

681
00:57:24,401 --> 00:57:28,421
without needing to go right the way up to a state-level government

682
00:57:28,421 --> 00:57:30,781
and argue a clause in the constitution

683
00:57:30,781 --> 00:57:34,501
and bet that they're going to follow through on that and not change it.

684
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:41,161
It's funny, over the years of being into the free cities thing,

685
00:57:41,581 --> 00:57:47,561
I've learned to really appreciate the difference between, you know,

686
00:57:47,561 --> 00:57:56,581
i always i see it like this now bitcoin was um freedom in the digital realm and as much as is

687
00:57:56,581 --> 00:58:05,061
possible the ideas that we look at on this podcast and in the whole movement are trying to create

688
00:58:05,061 --> 00:58:10,081
freedom in the physical world which is is probably not possible it's certainly not possible to the

689
00:58:10,081 --> 00:58:14,541
degree you get it in the digital world put it that way that's so true right but let me let me

690
00:58:14,541 --> 00:58:22,641
just go on a bit so so if you think about bitcoin and the freedom in the in the digital world

691
00:58:22,641 --> 00:58:29,321
that's new it's new the the scarcity is new that there's lots of aspects of bitcoin which is brand

692
00:58:29,321 --> 00:58:36,441
new to the human mind to actually live this thing what does that show us in the physical world

693
00:58:36,441 --> 00:58:41,041
how do we get it right in the physical world because i know that we probably can never get

694
00:58:41,041 --> 00:58:45,941
true freedom in the physical world so we're trying to optimize it aren't we we're trying to get the

695
00:58:45,941 --> 00:58:51,381
best thing you know one one method is put a fence around your bit of land and and then within there

696
00:58:51,381 --> 00:58:57,101
you get freedom another thing you know blah blah so where what do we where do we go with this where

697
00:58:57,101 --> 00:59:02,581
where do where do we go to get maybe using NOSTA maybe using whatever you know because we've got

698
00:59:02,581 --> 00:59:08,501
all these new technologies yeah you know so it's this is a strategic question and it's a really

699
00:59:08,501 --> 00:59:12,701
hard question this is this is us stirring into the constellation and guessing where the future's

700
00:59:12,701 --> 00:59:17,981
going and while things are so uncertain it's it's hard it's to take account of what you've just asked

701
00:59:17,981 --> 00:59:24,101
is where does this like absolutely batshit never happen before thing travel across a map that's

702
00:59:24,101 --> 00:59:30,441
never happened before and never been more volatile but strategically if you were talking about a

703
00:59:30,441 --> 00:59:36,021
freedom movement in a reverse of the way potentially like a socialist revolution happens

704
00:59:36,021 --> 00:59:42,661
where one of the pillars of socialism is fractional reserve banking what you would see in an emergent

705
00:59:42,661 --> 00:59:49,661
freedom movement that is persistent and and and reinvesting its gains and enjoying more space than

706
00:59:49,661 --> 00:59:57,741
before is in a removal of that pillar that undermines what that pillar puts up which is

707
00:59:57,741 --> 01:00:05,241
socialism collectivism and mob rule until it runs out of food and so let's let's look at this as a

708
01:00:05,241 --> 01:00:12,841
strategic thing and we've already unlocked a denied area of economics and society by being

709
01:00:12,841 --> 01:00:17,941
able to ultimately transact on a separate network so there's a now there's a there's a there was a

710
01:00:17,941 --> 01:00:24,481
closed prison cell and bitcoins broke open a door that allows your property to step in there and

711
01:00:24,481 --> 01:00:29,541
lock itself up safely and can't be destroyed that's crucial if you can destroy something

712
01:00:29,541 --> 01:00:35,141
and have the final say in its destruction with no repercussions or repercussions no one's prepared

713
01:00:35,141 --> 01:00:35,821
to take on you.

714
01:00:35,941 --> 01:00:36,421
You own it.

715
01:00:37,241 --> 01:00:38,041
That's a physical,

716
01:00:38,481 --> 01:00:39,541
that's the physical realm.

717
01:00:40,921 --> 01:00:42,141
Sam's not too happy about that.

718
01:00:42,601 --> 01:00:44,841
I think we've got to talk about security.

719
01:00:45,201 --> 01:00:45,601
Yeah, yeah.

720
01:00:45,941 --> 01:00:47,961
This or chickens is probably the best.

721
01:00:48,461 --> 01:00:49,181
What's that noise?

722
01:00:49,761 --> 01:00:51,281
It's a slow moving tractor

723
01:00:51,281 --> 01:00:52,501
he thinks is on the land

724
01:00:52,501 --> 01:00:53,301
and it's not.

725
01:00:53,401 --> 01:00:54,241
It's just coming up the road.

726
01:00:56,661 --> 01:00:58,041
All this fares up and all that.

727
01:00:58,261 --> 01:00:59,501
But it's super handy.

728
01:00:59,981 --> 01:01:01,781
Yeah, we've got a very small dog

729
01:01:01,781 --> 01:01:03,101
but she still barks

730
01:01:03,101 --> 01:01:04,701
when anyone's like half a mile

731
01:01:04,701 --> 01:01:05,381
down the drive.

732
01:01:05,541 --> 01:01:06,961
And then like within three metres

733
01:01:06,961 --> 01:01:08,221
of getting towards him

734
01:01:08,221 --> 01:01:09,341
having looked like that.

735
01:01:09,521 --> 01:01:09,741
Yeah.

736
01:01:10,241 --> 01:01:11,101
It's just squeaking,

737
01:01:11,261 --> 01:01:11,901
lick your face.

738
01:01:12,401 --> 01:01:13,361
Lick you to death.

739
01:01:13,921 --> 01:01:15,561
Yeah, it's just a guy

740
01:01:15,561 --> 01:01:17,101
moving some...

741
01:01:17,101 --> 01:01:18,301
He's been on this

742
01:01:18,301 --> 01:01:19,401
like 10 runs a day.

743
01:01:19,421 --> 01:01:20,301
Is that the rocks guy?

744
01:01:20,501 --> 01:01:20,781
Yeah.

745
01:01:21,161 --> 01:01:21,861
Where's he taking it?

746
01:01:21,881 --> 01:01:22,801
Are they building a road

747
01:01:22,801 --> 01:01:23,141
or something?

748
01:01:23,481 --> 01:01:24,401
I don't know.

749
01:01:24,501 --> 01:01:25,641
I just know that you can't

750
01:01:25,641 --> 01:01:26,781
bag it and sell rock.

751
01:01:27,401 --> 01:01:29,201
You're into the environmental stuff.

752
01:01:29,461 --> 01:01:30,681
But if you've got a rock pit,

753
01:01:31,501 --> 01:01:33,441
you can take it

754
01:01:33,441 --> 01:01:34,161
and you can put it

755
01:01:34,161 --> 01:01:39,181
another site and and because you're not selling it you're allowed to just keep going at it well

756
01:01:39,181 --> 01:01:44,341
you could i mean we we've ordered a few tons of rock to build a wall you know off a quarry yeah

757
01:01:44,341 --> 01:01:49,641
they'll be like they'll have all this regulatory this and environmental that and planning rights

758
01:01:49,641 --> 01:01:54,241
but if a farmer i mean you've got a hill and it's made of rock with grass on top if you're chipping

759
01:01:54,241 --> 01:01:59,521
away at it to cap your own road it's okay but if you do that put it in bags and sell it to you for

760
01:01:59,521 --> 01:02:05,201
your driveway you're a quarry you're into quarrying see like these division of labors and the way they

761
01:02:05,201 --> 01:02:10,801
regulate stuff and that but that's just the environment we're in yes and it's hard to do

762
01:02:10,801 --> 01:02:17,561
commerce like that's uh sympathetic to bitcoin its principles oh yeah you think i need more of that

763
01:02:17,561 --> 01:02:23,101
i i bought cold coffee because i thought we'll probably i thought you won't give me coffee

764
01:02:23,101 --> 01:02:27,381
it's the caffeine i just yeah me too i'm just gonna nip out for a little all right subject

765
01:02:27,381 --> 01:02:28,021
Go on.

766
01:02:29,101 --> 01:02:30,241
Hold your question, though, mate.

767
01:02:30,801 --> 01:02:31,561
Sounds like a good one.

768
01:02:34,381 --> 01:02:34,981
Sorry, mate.

769
01:02:36,521 --> 01:02:37,161
Are we still recording?

770
01:02:37,741 --> 01:02:38,381
Of course it is.

771
01:02:38,601 --> 01:02:38,841
Okay.

772
01:02:39,861 --> 01:02:40,541
I always like that.

773
01:02:41,041 --> 01:02:41,361
Sorry.

774
01:02:41,741 --> 01:02:43,981
Rogan does that.

775
01:02:44,101 --> 01:02:45,021
People go out and have pisses.

776
01:02:45,021 --> 01:02:46,781
Apparently, you can go for like six hours.

777
01:02:46,961 --> 01:02:47,461
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

778
01:02:47,561 --> 01:02:48,701
I think that's one of the...

779
01:02:48,701 --> 01:02:50,061
I think he did one with Alex Jones,

780
01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:51,221
which was six and a half hours.

781
01:02:52,381 --> 01:02:53,981
Now, I want to go back to this question.

782
01:02:54,121 --> 01:02:54,281
Yeah.

783
01:02:55,161 --> 01:02:57,161
Bitcoin digital world freedom.

784
01:02:57,381 --> 01:03:05,121
free cities or something yeah it's the biggest blue bottle of everything something in the real

785
01:03:05,121 --> 01:03:10,701
world that's the equivalent and it's to do with governance because it's to do with freedom and

786
01:03:10,701 --> 01:03:17,361
it's to do with should i be governed should i be free right this this area of adoption is the bit

787
01:03:17,361 --> 01:03:23,941
that i'm at and it's the hardest it's it's outside of the net the lower bound of larping and part-time

788
01:03:23,941 --> 01:03:28,881
activism which is fine and it's nice to know at conferences and things that people are into the

789
01:03:28,881 --> 01:03:34,961
same things you are feeling the same way about things but above informal and outside of black

790
01:03:34,961 --> 01:03:39,841
markets which were illegal anyway and probably for good reason the root of it things like silk road

791
01:03:39,841 --> 01:03:44,701
doing sending heroin to teenagers or whatever the narratives are the ability to do that's probably

792
01:03:44,701 --> 01:03:50,941
wrong but they're they're things that are enforced and they just happen anyway but then there's this

793
01:03:50,941 --> 01:03:56,221
other thing and while everybody's still frothing at the mouth about like ripping down fiat institutions

794
01:03:56,221 --> 01:04:03,501
and it's all gonna pop and the money's all debt it's it's true but there's an element of overlap

795
01:04:03,501 --> 01:04:09,121
in in what of all this shit we have to put up with that's still valuable and still quite a good way

796
01:04:09,121 --> 01:04:14,861
of doing things you know let's take out good like building regulations because they're bureaucratic

797
01:04:14,861 --> 01:04:20,341
okay but let's keep the principles of the values of the structures so that we're not building houses

798
01:04:20,341 --> 01:04:28,001
that flop over and i say this because if we're going to reduce the state influence we have to

799
01:04:28,001 --> 01:04:34,121
diminish its responsibilities and its and its ability to have to hold them properly and it

800
01:04:34,121 --> 01:04:41,681
doesn't enforce the laws it speaks to be responsible for broadly it doesn't always enforce borders it

801
01:04:41,681 --> 01:04:47,681
doesn't always give you a good health experience and when they fuck up it's an inquiry or an

802
01:04:47,681 --> 01:04:53,701
apology at best 10 20 years after something's happened and in the free market it would be a

803
01:04:53,701 --> 01:04:59,601
right quick dust up and a bankruptcy and the people who got the benefit and profits from doing that

804
01:04:59,601 --> 01:05:08,041
lose everything that part of the economy we want to keep that like family businesses are adaptable

805
01:05:08,041 --> 01:05:14,321
in fiat economies you can still have them they might be undermining the reasons why families are

806
01:05:14,321 --> 01:05:21,881
important and and all of that with regulations where they can set on and off but but the bit

807
01:05:21,881 --> 01:05:26,861
where we work with a family business or work with someone with a long reputation why keep that

808
01:05:26,861 --> 01:05:33,481
and this area of adoption is the one that sits above what you can do furtively or no one cares

809
01:05:33,481 --> 01:05:39,221
about because it's like el salvadorian coffee or something it's not to diminish that is to say

810
01:05:39,221 --> 01:05:44,521
that's below a scale that these entities these governments and state authorities care about

811
01:05:44,521 --> 01:05:50,281
as long as you do it on the edges of their map they don't care the bit that's hard to do

812
01:05:50,281 --> 01:05:57,381
is the bit that still allocates capital at scale so you have a meaningful life and you need skills

813
01:05:57,381 --> 01:06:03,241
and you need to feel good about what you're doing and have it that it's sympathetic to bitcoin

814
01:06:03,241 --> 01:06:09,781
sympathetic to privacy and sympathetic to freedom but can still grow to a scale where it's not

815
01:06:09,781 --> 01:06:17,441
attacked in the real economy so it has to render to caesar and pay its taxes but it also has to

816
01:06:17,441 --> 01:06:24,741
support the mission and the progress of freedom and that's hard won ground and going back to your

817
01:06:24,741 --> 01:06:32,061
question about bitcoin and nostril and strategic i think this area of the economy is where the tools

818
01:06:32,061 --> 01:06:47,401
on NOSTA will be picked up and developed for real use cases and help us demonstrate the alternative way without the full cost of an alternative system We can map NOSTA to the processes that fiat

819
01:06:47,401 --> 01:06:55,601
channels use and can chop and bend and coerce you with and just build a parallel scaffolding

820
01:06:55,601 --> 01:07:02,341
framework around the same risks so that when they get cut their perceived damage to you is

821
01:07:02,341 --> 01:07:09,901
lower because they know you've got a rope to fall back on so nosta might go a long way just keeping

822
01:07:09,901 --> 01:07:16,421
up with the basic affairs of the people that use it in terms of commerce and reputation and it might

823
01:07:16,421 --> 01:07:24,921
only be used when the fiat rails fail and so you'll get the nosta adoptions in spikes like we did with

824
01:07:24,921 --> 01:07:30,841
bitcoin this is why it's similar over crises and over things that draw the eye and draw the attention

825
01:07:30,841 --> 01:07:37,661
wiki leaks huge period of time for bitcoin silk road huge period of time for bitcoin

826
01:07:37,661 --> 01:07:44,441
uh public adoption with the uh recent deification of michael saylor

827
01:07:44,441 --> 01:07:52,301
it it's a big moment and uh there's loads you disagree with with mr saylor but you don't have

828
01:07:52,301 --> 01:07:58,241
his perspective so why would you agree with him on everything as a piece of litigation and

829
01:07:58,241 --> 01:08:00,921
investor management, it was a masterclass.

830
01:08:01,561 --> 01:08:03,101
He rotated an investor base

831
01:08:03,101 --> 01:08:05,021
legally

832
01:08:05,021 --> 01:08:07,041
and profitably

833
01:08:07,041 --> 01:08:09,321
and ethically into a Bitcoin

834
01:08:09,321 --> 01:08:11,281
treasury and did it on a public

835
01:08:11,281 --> 01:08:13,261
company that templated it and shown

836
01:08:13,261 --> 01:08:15,161
every other company that's listed exactly what

837
01:08:15,161 --> 01:08:17,201
course they plotted through the map to get

838
01:08:17,201 --> 01:08:19,081
the bit they wanted out of the Bitcoin tech

839
01:08:19,081 --> 01:08:21,181
but not make themselves

840
01:08:21,181 --> 01:08:23,321
so adapted to it that they're illegitimate.

841
01:08:25,201 --> 01:08:27,001
And that's a hard, that's a

842
01:08:27,001 --> 01:08:34,601
fucking hard thing to do run that thought experiment with nostor then what would be

843
01:08:34,601 --> 01:08:45,501
a situation or a person or a company that would do the operate a similar plan with nostor okay

844
01:08:45,501 --> 01:08:52,361
well let's take something we know exists already uh and it's simple but it's in use and we don't

845
01:08:52,361 --> 01:08:57,721
need to argue it let's go back to these peer-to-peer exchanges so it's the simplest level

846
01:08:57,721 --> 01:09:04,941
of abstract commerce you have bitcoin utxos i have a fiat bank account we enter into an escrow

847
01:09:04,941 --> 01:09:13,761
there are time windows there are standards to meet like an old law contract old english law

848
01:09:13,761 --> 01:09:18,701
is not written into the bitcoin blockchain so it won't serve as a basis for us to do legal contracts

849
01:09:18,701 --> 01:09:24,141
but if you log in and you've got your hodl hodl account and you've done a few good trades in the

850
01:09:24,141 --> 01:09:30,661
past you're set up to be able to show that you can do a future contract from your ability to do

851
01:09:30,661 --> 01:09:35,501
previous ones and then you enter into that contract and it's pretty it's like all of the

852
01:09:35,501 --> 01:09:41,541
iterations inside that add up to one in terms of probability which is to say once you've put your

853
01:09:41,541 --> 01:09:46,681
deposit down and once i put mine down and we both agreed to do this one of two things happens

854
01:09:46,681 --> 01:09:51,741
either both parties do it and they transact as agreed or one fails and there's a there's a

855
01:09:51,741 --> 01:09:56,101
grievance procedure not a single point is the local jurisdiction been involved

856
01:09:56,101 --> 01:10:03,861
this is where it is applicable in two places because you've got the local site-based reputation

857
01:10:03,861 --> 01:10:12,221
system and its rules that are enforced first and after that transaction is still eligible for

858
01:10:12,221 --> 01:10:17,241
potentially a small claim like when you don't get your amazon parcel delivered then you claim

859
01:10:17,241 --> 01:10:25,161
against the seller and it can be enforced by a fiat law and so the way to adopt bitcoin is not

860
01:10:25,161 --> 01:10:29,201
to think of it that when things are adopted in bitcoin it's at the expense of what's there

861
01:10:29,201 --> 01:10:35,681
already what you want to do is make shapes and transactions and products that run on fiat rails

862
01:10:35,681 --> 01:10:41,161
but also can run on bitcoin rails and you try and match them as closely to each other as possible

863
01:10:41,161 --> 01:10:47,641
and it's hard that is that is damn hard to do if you stand out too much and you make yourself so

864
01:10:47,641 --> 01:10:55,601
not uh like alien to where you live and the community you serve it becomes an exclusivity

865
01:10:55,601 --> 01:11:02,501
thing you're alienated and then you're attacked and brought low and so the best thing to do is to

866
01:11:02,501 --> 01:11:07,881
be eligible for both systems i think which is to say we don't take anything we meet our requirements

867
01:11:07,881 --> 01:11:15,921
we follow our law but we've also got tech that we're doing that because if we don't we'll be

868
01:11:15,921 --> 01:11:20,401
destroyed by somebody we're not doing it because it's the way to regulate the structure of buildings

869
01:11:20,401 --> 01:11:27,321
we do it because we're told to but if we had a customer who wasn't subject to those laws we can

870
01:11:27,321 --> 01:11:33,041
still demonstrate that something's strong or of a certain quality just by itself evident proof

871
01:11:33,041 --> 01:11:37,641
proven the qualities of it and that and the way that that's shown on and potentially on a nostr

872
01:11:37,641 --> 01:11:42,761
account is that you do go through that with somebody and they don't need all the stamps and

873
01:11:42,761 --> 01:11:49,861
stickers but they still get a product they like i'm just thinking about and then tell people that

874
01:11:49,861 --> 01:11:55,641
they had a good interaction hey i got this product i paid what i expected and i got what i expected

875
01:11:55,641 --> 01:12:00,101
I'm just thinking about maybe NOSTA

876
01:12:00,101 --> 01:12:03,281
maybe the digital identity thing

877
01:12:03,281 --> 01:12:05,981
once again is

878
01:12:05,981 --> 01:12:09,641
Bitcoin and NOSTA are so important to work together

879
01:12:09,641 --> 01:12:11,001
because

880
01:12:11,001 --> 01:12:14,781
do you believe Bitcoin defunds the state first?

881
01:12:15,141 --> 01:12:16,101
simple yes or no

882
01:12:16,101 --> 01:12:17,921
simple yes or no

883
01:12:17,921 --> 01:12:18,581
yes

884
01:12:18,581 --> 01:12:19,041
okay

885
01:12:19,041 --> 01:12:23,041
and NOSTA emasculates the government

886
01:12:23,041 --> 01:12:24,141
simple yes or no

887
01:12:24,141 --> 01:12:24,961
yes

888
01:12:24,961 --> 01:12:25,441
right

889
01:12:25,441 --> 01:12:33,521
so the the state is kind of co-opting bitcoin slowly they're not they're not fighting it and

890
01:12:33,521 --> 01:12:39,521
they they've probably got a plan to sort of you know control it in some shape or form whether or

891
01:12:39,521 --> 01:12:42,981
not it works we'll have to we'll have to see i think people like you and me imagine imagine you

892
01:12:42,981 --> 01:12:48,001
got two runners in a race and one is freedom tech and one is government tech there's a point where

893
01:12:48,001 --> 01:12:53,181
the runner stops trying to run for the line and runs to the other runner to beat them up

894
01:12:53,181 --> 01:12:59,221
and the the boundary we push as bitcoiners is where you push push push in the same direction

895
01:12:59,221 --> 01:13:03,521
a government's trying to claim like we'll look after your finances we'll look after your food

896
01:13:03,521 --> 01:13:09,461
supply and bitcoin and the freedom tech and all the stuff that supports it from farms through to

897
01:13:09,461 --> 01:13:15,821
core devs through to the totally abstract are racing against an ability to do that for themselves

898
01:13:15,821 --> 01:13:24,741
saying no we don't need these laws i make a choice for my health decisions and as it's like cops and

899
01:13:24,741 --> 01:13:31,981
robbers when the freedom tech allows you to unlock areas of your life that would have been denied on

900
01:13:31,981 --> 01:13:38,001
purely fiat rails it gives you an off-ramp it gives you an ability to trade get everything you

901
01:13:38,001 --> 01:13:42,801
wanted from what the government set menu promised but without any of the side effects and without

902
01:13:42,801 --> 01:13:49,821
any of the abuse potential that's where bitcoiners get the most benefit it's but it's also the

903
01:13:49,821 --> 01:13:56,061
hardest area of the economy to win because the minute you go out of the abstract and the hackathons

904
01:13:56,061 --> 01:14:01,421
and the github forks and the little programs you can put on a torrent and never be seen

905
01:14:01,421 --> 01:14:06,561
once you move into stuff of substance that affects people's physical quality of life

906
01:14:06,561 --> 01:14:12,681
and what they experience inside of an actual day in a human skin not as a utxo on a chip

907
01:14:12,681 --> 01:14:18,081
I think some people live on these Bitcoin signers they think that their money's safe and they're safe

908
01:14:18,081 --> 01:14:24,121
or they just have two different modes where their Bitcoiners when the Bitcoin hat's on and then

909
01:14:24,121 --> 01:14:32,601
just part of the crowd the rest of the time and I think the hardest area to sit in is where you're

910
01:14:32,601 --> 01:14:38,941
still serving the real economy at scale because that's quite a powerful position to sit in and

911
01:14:38,941 --> 01:14:45,481
you just have to be sympathetic and use as contingency and in NOSTA's case sometimes it's

912
01:14:45,481 --> 01:14:52,501
cheaper just to run NOSTA than it is to get some privacy uh anti-privacy tech for instance remote

913
01:14:52,501 --> 01:15:01,101
viewing or access control it's cheaper to use Keet hole punch to do video streaming because it's free

914
01:15:01,101 --> 01:15:06,961
than it is to get a google account and do meat so the freedom tech stuff is actually sometimes

915
01:15:06,961 --> 01:15:13,761
on a real project the cheapest to deliver for that capability that you need opening and closing gates

916
01:15:13,761 --> 01:15:19,661
it's either wall garden ring doorbells that you pay subscriptions to and you don't own the data

917
01:15:19,661 --> 01:15:29,201
or it could just be a nosta uh pull down but at the end of the day the state can come in with guns

918
01:15:29,201 --> 01:15:35,301
and shut it down right now but this is why i was saying that the bitcoin element is so important

919
01:15:35,301 --> 01:15:42,841
because over the long term theoretically bitcoin defunds that ability that's where they work

920
01:15:42,841 --> 01:15:50,821
together yeah right because like you know i don't think we can ever solve for the state coming in

921
01:15:50,821 --> 01:15:56,841
with guns basically like or going for communism or for whatever you know like we we don't have to

922
01:15:56,841 --> 01:16:05,061
uh the truth always wins historically but how do we justify that well truth always wins

923
01:16:05,061 --> 01:16:08,021
but the truth is often losing

924
01:16:08,021 --> 01:16:09,161
in that moment

925
01:16:09,161 --> 01:16:10,101
is the truth not winning

926
01:16:10,101 --> 01:16:10,541
you know

927
01:16:10,541 --> 01:16:11,681
it's losing

928
01:16:11,681 --> 01:16:13,781
it's losing along the way

929
01:16:13,781 --> 01:16:14,501
you could say that the truth always loses in the end

930
01:16:14,501 --> 01:16:16,281
it depends which part of the cycle you're in

931
01:16:16,281 --> 01:16:17,481
that might be a better way of putting it

932
01:16:17,481 --> 01:16:17,881
the truth

933
01:16:17,881 --> 01:16:18,781
the truth

934
01:16:18,781 --> 01:16:19,661
no no

935
01:16:19,661 --> 01:16:21,181
I mean the truth always loses

936
01:16:21,181 --> 01:16:23,201
if you're in the point where you're losing

937
01:16:23,201 --> 01:16:24,721
then you'll think

938
01:16:24,721 --> 01:16:25,641
this is the end

939
01:16:25,641 --> 01:16:27,041
oh it'll win in the end

940
01:16:27,041 --> 01:16:28,221
but then it wins in the end

941
01:16:28,221 --> 01:16:29,621
it's cyclical I'd say

942
01:16:29,621 --> 01:16:30,981
and it might be one of

943
01:16:30,981 --> 01:16:32,401
a little bit like owning bitcoin

944
01:16:32,401 --> 01:16:33,381
is that you constantly

945
01:16:33,381 --> 01:16:33,901
every day

946
01:16:33,901 --> 01:16:34,341
day day

947
01:16:34,341 --> 01:16:38,741
you feel like you've given something up or you're losing but then there are just these moments and

948
01:16:38,741 --> 01:16:43,541
days where you go knocking out that's that's gone up a lot it's that constant feeling that we're

949
01:16:43,541 --> 01:16:48,881
losing ground we're being attacked where things are getting worse things are getting worse but i

950
01:16:48,881 --> 01:16:55,481
mean historically for us to even be here has been only the result of that argument being won over

951
01:16:55,481 --> 01:17:01,021
and over and over again in human history so things are different in that the magnitude of everything

952
01:17:01,021 --> 01:17:07,881
is pretty bad maybe the worst ever but we are only here because this argument's been worn over and

953
01:17:07,881 --> 01:17:13,061
over and when it's come down to it there's been an awful bloody fight over it but there's been an

954
01:17:13,061 --> 01:17:18,521
awful bloody fight over it and then it's won on that on that battlefield literally and then it's

955
01:17:18,521 --> 01:17:23,121
enforced and then it's degraded again and then you have to go and fight for it again and i think that

956
01:17:23,121 --> 01:17:28,521
um the progress of bitcoin has been non-violent that's what's so impressive about it it's had no

957
01:17:28,521 --> 01:17:34,441
physical enforcement whatsoever. It's took nobody, well a handful of people maybe arguably,

958
01:17:34,941 --> 01:17:42,221
to risk themselves physically. It's quite bloodless but there is this all or nothing

959
01:17:42,221 --> 01:17:46,921
issue at stake and I'm just saying that we need to survive the middle bit

960
01:17:46,921 --> 01:17:55,161
and not get taken out too quickly and just see if you can support it and keep it going and keep it

961
01:17:55,161 --> 01:18:00,061
alive and concentrate on that so much as working out whether it's going to win or lose and how

962
01:18:00,061 --> 01:18:06,421
it's just to keep it going and bring it back use bitcoin principles and use the tools to the scale

963
01:18:06,421 --> 01:18:12,121
of your life and try and adapt them into your life in a negotiated way if you're too extreme

964
01:18:12,121 --> 01:18:16,181
you'll stand out if you're not extreme enough you'll have no impact and the movement doesn't

965
01:18:16,181 --> 01:18:21,601
go on and it's that dangerous middle ground and where we are in terms of like 2025 middle of

966
01:18:21,601 --> 01:18:28,081
summer is the world's kicking off the volatility that's been stored up over maybe a lifetime

967
01:18:28,081 --> 01:18:34,641
is starting to crackle like an earthquake and big things are happening big big things we can't

968
01:18:34,641 --> 01:18:40,781
control but there's this middle ground that's the next challenge i think that extends the freedom

969
01:18:40,781 --> 01:18:48,701
movement and it's to move into that visible part of society it's not to no longer be furtive and

970
01:18:48,701 --> 01:18:56,561
separate and satellited but to actually try to adapt the normal comings and goings of life with

971
01:18:56,561 --> 01:19:01,601
this technology as it improves and as it becomes more ubiquitous i still don't think we have bitcoin

972
01:19:01,601 --> 01:19:08,301
at an acceptable level in money at least not in the uk and regionally but in the us there'll be

973
01:19:08,301 --> 01:19:12,521
large sections of places or industries or places where you can just get stuff done in bitcoin

974
01:19:12,521 --> 01:19:18,601
and that wouldn't have been the case 10 years ago and nost is the same it's just a few years behind

975
01:19:18,601 --> 01:19:25,121
and it's solving for a different problem it's kind of onboarding bitcoiners and entities into

976
01:19:25,121 --> 01:19:32,521
this into this web of trust where money went first in its abstract and then humans didn't go with it

977
01:19:32,521 --> 01:19:38,261
and we need a layer to get the principles of bitcoin but apply them at a human scale

978
01:19:38,261 --> 01:19:44,921
in a normal life not to get small and hide on a ranch uh not that's a bad thing i like my ranches

979
01:19:44,921 --> 01:19:50,321
It's just to say there's a run away and hide over there until they've had a fight.

980
01:19:50,681 --> 01:19:57,201
Or there's a stay engaged and get big enough and stay with the pack enough that when it

981
01:19:57,201 --> 01:20:00,101
does become critical, you've got some sway.

982
01:20:00,381 --> 01:20:04,941
You've got some capital allocation and you've got some capability that people have to choose

983
01:20:04,941 --> 01:20:10,561
between burning you or burning what you do as a job or a life or what you produce.

984
01:20:10,561 --> 01:20:16,001
and the more responsibility you can have the more protected you are from it being taken off you

985
01:20:16,001 --> 01:20:22,641
because if they take it off you they lose the capability of what you have so you've got to

986
01:20:22,641 --> 01:20:28,501
constantly be pushing your values and i think if you just do it at an individual level or you try

987
01:20:28,501 --> 01:20:33,121
to like go to that small scale you're doing the right thing but you're not having an impact it's

988
01:20:33,121 --> 01:20:38,601
the difference between someone who litter picks around their village green and it's not to

989
01:20:38,601 --> 01:20:44,361
criticize that as an intent i'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do i'm saying the scale is

990
01:20:44,361 --> 01:20:51,881
not big enough to have an impact that's not the work the work is like the ocean cleanup like that

991
01:20:51,881 --> 01:20:57,261
young lad who took shipping containers out into the pacific ocean he pulls 50 tons of trash out

992
01:20:57,261 --> 01:21:04,541
of the ocean that's scale that's hard it's the same principle it's just damn hard and i think

993
01:21:04,541 --> 01:21:08,821
The bit we're pushing into with Bitcoin, Nostra and FreedomTech is into the real economy.

994
01:21:09,141 --> 01:21:14,081
It's making meritocracy more socially acceptable again.

995
01:21:15,661 --> 01:21:19,541
It's making doing the right thing valuable again.

996
01:21:20,001 --> 01:21:23,401
Not having it washed back into a taxation budget.

997
01:21:24,321 --> 01:21:32,081
And not having it that we've got an anonymous society that can roll through groups and defraud them.

998
01:21:32,961 --> 01:21:34,001
Or hurt them.

999
01:21:34,541 --> 01:21:36,801
or just not do what you're going to say and then go

1000
01:21:36,801 --> 01:21:40,321
and have the blanket of that to hide your trail

1001
01:21:40,321 --> 01:21:42,241
under an umbrella of privacy.

1002
01:21:42,401 --> 01:21:42,841
It's perverse.

1003
01:21:44,121 --> 01:21:48,041
You're basically describing like a kind of return to morals

1004
01:21:48,041 --> 01:21:51,261
and, you know, in a very 21st century way.

1005
01:21:51,361 --> 01:21:52,361
No, but it's interesting, isn't it?

1006
01:21:52,361 --> 01:21:55,121
Because lots of generations have said the same thing.

1007
01:21:55,301 --> 01:21:56,161
You know what I mean?

1008
01:21:56,181 --> 01:21:56,981
They haven't had the ability.

1009
01:21:57,521 --> 01:22:00,381
From the minute we were able to scratch words into the paper,

1010
01:22:00,381 --> 01:22:02,261
we've had an ability to record what's happened.

1011
01:22:02,821 --> 01:22:04,461
But it's not had high fidelity.

1012
01:22:04,541 --> 01:22:11,801
it's been hard to prove you know everybody's got the ability to publish but what if we started to

1013
01:22:11,801 --> 01:22:16,361
tie these data points to things that are harder to forge than noise than words what if we tied

1014
01:22:16,361 --> 01:22:22,381
them to locations well what happens then is you've highlighted yourself as a location to

1015
01:22:22,381 --> 01:22:28,801
people who mean you harm so how do we abstract the ability to say you're here and that you're

1016
01:22:28,801 --> 01:22:35,061
of substance but it not be a big deal if people know where you are you've got to the trick is to

1017
01:22:35,061 --> 01:22:41,481
negotiate what you've learned about bitcoin and how it's better and how it's truthful and what's

1018
01:22:41,481 --> 01:22:46,441
good about it in the long run and take the principles and abstract them into places that

1019
01:22:46,441 --> 01:22:51,281
bitcoin isn't dominant which is the physical world the physical economy what's interesting about

1020
01:22:51,281 --> 01:22:59,421
bitcoin though that i've noticed is years ago the theory of what might transpire was laid out and

1021
01:22:59,421 --> 01:23:07,841
was talked about and discussed and it's kind of happening that way for example um people use

1022
01:23:07,841 --> 01:23:14,021
bitcoin as savings now they do not just people but like or whatever countries right okay you know

1023
01:23:14,021 --> 01:23:18,321
but that's yeah but people people said that would happen and they said that would be part of the

1024
01:23:18,321 --> 01:23:24,261
process as well and it is part of the process and it is happening now and now i hear it on them on

1025
01:23:24,261 --> 01:23:30,101
the most mainstream of mainstream news yes that people are preserving their wealth in this digital

1026
01:23:30,101 --> 01:23:34,461
and gold this is what's interesting a gold miner switched to bitcoin mining and they've been able

1027
01:23:34,461 --> 01:23:40,841
to make the case in an investor note by saying this is gold mining we're still expending energy

1028
01:23:40,841 --> 01:23:46,001
to have something that holds its value so they're getting it on the level that it was it was designed

1029
01:23:46,001 --> 01:23:52,481
that and it's changing because they realize well it's all mining we're doing a difficult process

1030
01:23:52,481 --> 01:23:57,661
for a steady rate of income on something that can't be diluted so why is bitcoin out of the party

1031
01:23:57,661 --> 01:24:03,961
and that's that's where you want to be in a freedom argument is where the merits of what

1032
01:24:03,961 --> 01:24:09,301
you're bringing in in still enforce whatever all the regulation and all the good intent tries to

1033
01:24:09,301 --> 01:24:15,921
but it does it better and it leaves the downsides of dictatorial systems and fiat systems

1034
01:24:15,921 --> 01:24:22,201
out of the picture that's the that is the golden middle of where adoption needs to go it's also the

1035
01:24:22,201 --> 01:24:29,201
hardest place to stand it's miserable to try and adapt something that is supportive of bitcoin

1036
01:24:29,201 --> 01:24:35,621
runs on bitcoin rails to the degree it's possible but also isn't doesn't stand out as an enemy or in

1037
01:24:35,621 --> 01:24:40,401
the wrong side of the law in the place it's operating and you need a place to operate because

1038
01:24:40,401 --> 01:24:46,601
it's real economy it's stuff that bitcoin won't get for us it's soft commodities it's water food

1039
01:24:46,601 --> 01:24:53,301
and all of that prepper stuff but that's the next part to adapt to primary industries and secondary

1040
01:24:53,301 --> 01:24:59,621
industries and small verticals that's a real circular it's a circular economy but it's scale

1041
01:24:59,621 --> 01:25:07,841
it's gdp points it's it's it's productivity with a capital p it's not proof of concept

1042
01:25:07,841 --> 01:25:17,001
and small and proving that the tech works on a little sandbox it's applying it to it to a post

1043
01:25:17,001 --> 01:25:23,081
code and letting it lower the price and increase the quality of goods as a result of using that

1044
01:25:23,081 --> 01:25:28,561
that's the argument you can make and you say right well you take that away you take my prices go up

1045
01:25:28,561 --> 01:25:33,621
or the business is gone so you pop that part of what you're trying to affect me to do

1046
01:25:33,621 --> 01:25:39,401
and you'll take the whole lot you'll take everything away and you can't recreate it

1047
01:25:39,401 --> 01:25:44,961
that's the argument but it's a very hard place to stand and it's very dangerous place to stand i

1048
01:25:44,961 --> 01:25:52,381
think because you are very visible and you don't ever want to be the most visible lightning rod

1049
01:25:52,381 --> 01:26:00,241
because those people get killed coerced made a fun of made example of yes but like you say

1050
01:26:00,241 --> 01:26:03,661
of all the revolutions that's ever happened,

1051
01:26:03,801 --> 01:26:08,481
Bitcoin has been quite a non-violent one.

1052
01:26:09,461 --> 01:26:09,941
So far.

1053
01:26:10,221 --> 01:26:11,541
So far, correct, yeah.

1054
01:26:11,561 --> 01:26:12,981
Because the Tea Party was non-violent

1055
01:26:12,981 --> 01:26:15,221
compared to the War of Independence.

1056
01:26:15,961 --> 01:26:17,501
Like we've got our riots,

1057
01:26:18,481 --> 01:26:22,201
we've got our, I call them volatility blips,

1058
01:26:22,741 --> 01:26:25,261
like these releases of pent-up aggression and energy.

1059
01:26:25,821 --> 01:26:27,781
It's false peace what we're in now.

1060
01:26:27,781 --> 01:26:32,101
I wouldn't mean to say that Bitcoin is bloodless forever.

1061
01:26:32,461 --> 01:26:33,981
It's to say that so far,

1062
01:26:34,321 --> 01:26:37,041
given how much of the area it's unlocked to people

1063
01:26:37,041 --> 01:26:38,961
who just want to transact without banks,

1064
01:26:39,521 --> 01:26:44,001
it's done it with an awful small casualty list so far.

1065
01:26:44,961 --> 01:26:45,401
But...

1066
01:26:45,401 --> 01:26:46,701
Why do you think that is?

1067
01:26:46,961 --> 01:26:48,081
Do they not get it or something?

1068
01:26:48,781 --> 01:26:49,781
Like, why didn't...

1069
01:26:49,781 --> 01:26:51,661
Like, is there a point going to come

1070
01:26:51,661 --> 01:26:52,981
when they suddenly realise,

1071
01:26:53,221 --> 01:26:55,221
oh, shit, you know,

1072
01:26:55,221 --> 01:27:00,621
this is undermining everything we use to maintain power.

1073
01:27:01,001 --> 01:27:06,661
What is the one thing in an entire train set of somebody,

1074
01:27:06,661 --> 01:27:08,641
like these controlling people,

1075
01:27:09,741 --> 01:27:11,461
what is the one thing they can't destroy?

1076
01:27:11,741 --> 01:27:13,261
They can destroy literally anything.

1077
01:27:13,821 --> 01:27:18,941
On a focused beam, they can blow up anyone and anywhere and anything,

1078
01:27:19,381 --> 01:27:21,821
anything except Bitcoin.

1079
01:27:22,821 --> 01:27:24,481
I think that's why it's been bloodless.

1080
01:27:25,221 --> 01:27:28,501
Because blood doesn't take away from its ability to transact.

1081
01:27:29,161 --> 01:27:33,201
There's no way, no way to get that system to die.

1082
01:27:34,361 --> 01:27:41,981
But what I mean is if someone in power decided to confiscate Bitcoin on scale,

1083
01:27:43,441 --> 01:27:46,141
they'd start, there'd be blood in the beginning.

1084
01:27:46,641 --> 01:27:49,001
I think they'd soon realize it's very difficult to enforce.

1085
01:27:49,001 --> 01:27:50,701
I mean, I don't think they can.

1086
01:27:50,721 --> 01:27:53,681
But owners of the Bitcoin, I mean, the first guy that has his door knocked on.

1087
01:27:53,921 --> 01:27:54,141
Yeah.

1088
01:27:54,141 --> 01:27:56,061
What's he going to do, just hand it over?

1089
01:27:56,141 --> 01:27:57,081
What about the second guy?

1090
01:27:57,501 --> 01:27:58,241
Yeah, exactly.

1091
01:27:58,401 --> 01:28:00,361
I think in the end, it goes really quickly.

1092
01:28:00,361 --> 01:28:02,121
You're getting close to your 30th guy,

1093
01:28:02,241 --> 01:28:03,921
and the government costs are $2 million.

1094
01:28:06,681 --> 01:28:08,821
And the yield on that attack might be two.

1095
01:28:09,561 --> 01:28:13,141
Do you think by the 10th and the 50th person on that list,

1096
01:28:13,721 --> 01:28:14,761
they're up in profit?

1097
01:28:15,181 --> 01:28:16,581
And do you think they look any better

1098
01:28:16,581 --> 01:28:18,901
for taking people house to house and looting them?

1099
01:28:19,141 --> 01:28:20,481
How did that look to anybody else

1100
01:28:20,481 --> 01:28:21,341
with Sindhu in history?

1101
01:28:21,701 --> 01:28:22,101
Well, I don't know.

1102
01:28:22,101 --> 01:28:26,101
I mean, funny, I was listening to a pod on the way over here

1103
01:28:26,101 --> 01:28:29,321
and they were talking about the Nixon shock

1104
01:28:29,321 --> 01:28:31,241
and go and listen to that speech

1105
01:28:31,241 --> 01:28:35,241
and realise what an absolutely outrageous thing that was.

1106
01:28:36,001 --> 01:28:38,901
Basically, someone, the premier,

1107
01:28:39,281 --> 01:28:41,281
the powerful person in America stood up

1108
01:28:41,281 --> 01:28:42,301
and said to the rest of the world,

1109
01:28:42,421 --> 01:28:43,901
hey, you know all that gold you gave us?

1110
01:28:44,661 --> 01:28:45,281
We don't have it.

1111
01:28:45,281 --> 01:28:45,561
It's ours now.

1112
01:28:45,781 --> 01:28:46,941
Yeah, we might have it.

1113
01:28:47,181 --> 01:28:49,501
No, no, literally, you can't have it back.

1114
01:28:49,842 --> 01:28:56,342
Well, it wasn't Nixon. I mean, the first time that was 33, it was the banning of gold in the US.

1115
01:28:56,342 --> 01:29:04,562
Right. But what I mean is no one in power has ever been shy to do absolutely outrageous things.

1116
01:29:04,682 --> 01:29:12,562
I mean, when America says, you know, all that gold you gave to us, the rest of the world, and these are big countries, these are ancient countries.

1117
01:29:12,982 --> 01:29:14,942
We've got it now and you can't have it back.

1118
01:29:14,942 --> 01:29:19,482
And because we can, basically, was the answer there.

1119
01:29:19,682 --> 01:29:20,942
They're bullies.

1120
01:29:21,042 --> 01:29:21,742
They're not stupid.

1121
01:29:22,342 --> 01:29:24,462
They're bullies, but they're not stupid.

1122
01:29:25,342 --> 01:29:28,582
And they know, like bullies know, you can't fight everyone.

1123
01:29:29,582 --> 01:29:30,322
You can't.

1124
01:29:30,822 --> 01:29:36,362
You are your profit as a bully is to the degree you can threaten people

1125
01:29:36,362 --> 01:29:37,662
without spending energy.

1126
01:29:38,362 --> 01:29:40,402
And that doesn't mean bullies don't spend energy.

1127
01:29:40,622 --> 01:29:42,162
We see focused attacks all the time.

1128
01:29:42,162 --> 01:29:44,282
but those attacks have to do more than the

1129
01:29:44,282 --> 01:29:46,542
kilowatt value of those punches

1130
01:29:46,542 --> 01:29:48,442
they have to do more, they have to chill

1131
01:29:48,442 --> 01:30:05,733
the nine other people who are represented by the people who are being punished that a public execution It enough to change individual decisions to doing something a certain way by seeing what happens when someone tries it once

1132
01:30:06,393 --> 01:30:16,493
But the lie, and the same lie that goes on in prisons all around the world, is that the capacity of the prison isn't totally strong enough to overwhelm the prison guards.

1133
01:30:16,493 --> 01:30:23,813
it is constantly but it's it's it's kept in place because one crab has to climb out the barrel first

1134
01:30:23,813 --> 01:30:28,713
and nothing good ever happens to that crap bitcoin maybe has been bloodless because

1135
01:30:28,713 --> 01:30:35,253
it's so coordinated and and there's no part of it that stands proud of all the rest of the parts of

1136
01:30:35,253 --> 01:30:39,073
it as it grows it's very hard to pick what point of it you're going to spend your energy on

1137
01:30:39,073 --> 01:30:46,893
because it's it's just so synchronous and so hard so abstract it's not physical you can't check

1138
01:30:46,893 --> 01:30:52,233
someone's house for bitcoin like you could with gold bars or drugs it's it's totally abstract but

1139
01:30:52,233 --> 01:31:04,685
we still keep that hook of value we still use it as a scoreboard to swap value around and it pervasive It not gone anywhere It got bigger And worse it been adopted into the fiat systems in some form of legitimacy

1140
01:31:04,845 --> 01:31:05,745
Ten years ago, it was a scam.

1141
01:31:06,665 --> 01:31:07,845
It was an unregulated scam.

1142
01:31:08,585 --> 01:31:10,805
When did the US start holding it on their balance sheet?

1143
01:31:11,165 --> 01:31:12,285
Is it still a scam?

1144
01:31:13,105 --> 01:31:17,045
So things change really gradually, and under that, everybody's quite down,

1145
01:31:17,045 --> 01:31:18,705
and it's scary.

1146
01:31:18,705 --> 01:31:24,885
but look at the progress that's been made without really any there's been blips there's been people

1147
01:31:24,885 --> 01:31:30,985
who've been made examples of there's been disasters and calamities in bitcoin but bitcoin's center has

1148
01:31:30,985 --> 01:31:38,905
moved it's grown out like directional progress in bitcoin's amazing but the the day-to-day stories

1149
01:31:38,905 --> 01:31:46,305
and threats and arguments are what it feels like but the reality is it's moving directionally in a

1150
01:31:46,305 --> 01:31:50,245
in a freedom direction without having a pitch battle in the middle.

1151
01:31:53,905 --> 01:31:54,405
Right.

1152
01:31:54,405 --> 01:31:55,945
What did you think of that?

1153
01:31:55,945 --> 01:32:09,997
Ben one of my favorite human beings to speak to in real life The next two hours of this conversation is where we really get going So pop on over to the Fountain app to listen to part two

1154
01:32:10,297 --> 01:32:16,457
If you're a subscriber, it will be there for you in the episode list. If you're listening to this

1155
01:32:16,457 --> 01:32:22,057
more than a week after the release date, well, just go ahead and listen as normal in your

1156
01:32:22,057 --> 01:32:28,037
podcasting app. Don't forget, the full episode will also be available on the Free Cities YouTube

1157
01:32:28,037 --> 01:32:35,197
channel, but that will be much later. And before you go, one last reminder to check out our show

1158
01:32:35,197 --> 01:32:44,377
sponsor, Veritas Village at www.ecovillages.life forward slash Free Cities. That link also includes

1159
01:32:44,377 --> 01:32:50,117
a long form interview with Patrick, who founded the company. It will certainly give you a good

1160
01:32:50,117 --> 01:32:56,917
sense of who they are and whether you would like to do business with them right see you in part two

1161
01:32:56,917 --> 01:32:58,677
over and out