Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast
of the Free Cities Foundation.
Hello and welcome to this episode number 167 of the Free Cities podcast,
brought to you by the wonderful Veritas Villages. Veritas Villages are our lead sponsor,
of course, and they're building off-grid freedom-oriented communities in Latin America.
These communities will almost certainly appeal to you if you're a freedom lover,
looking to live amongst like-minded individuals in places like Nicaragua, Panama and Costa Rica.
And if you're a Bitcoiner like me, you can buy your property with Bitcoin.
You can spend BTC at Veritas Village Communities and they can even help you mine Bitcoin
with the excess energy that your self-sufficient home will inevitably produce.
www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities please mention us if you choose to do business
with them patrick their ceo has been on the show a couple of times look in the show notes for links
to those interviews listen to him speak about the project and decide whether you would like to do
business with them right talking of central america where all the veritas villages are
Today's episode is a conversation with someone who's very candid about his enthusiasm for that part of the world.
Today I'm joined by Mikkel Thorup.
He's an offshore consultant who's spent 25 years on the road,
visiting more than 120 countries and built a life around, I suppose, the question,
where can families live with the most real world freedom today?
he's ended up in Central America listen on to see whether that might be an option for you
as well here's the AI summary we start with travel and the psychology of culture then move
into a surprisingly candid discussion about why freedom means different things to different
societies why Mikkel thinks the West often hides its control while China is more upfront about it
and how that trade-off shapes people's choices.
The AI is getting a bit chatty today.
There must have been a new update or something from there.
Mikel breaks down why he's based in Panama,
what makes territorial tax systems so attractive to high earners and early retirees,
and why he believes LATAM, Latin America,
is quietly becoming the world's most relevant freedom arbitrage.
We also get into UBI, CBDCs and the danger of purpose-free living.
Non-intentional living, I suppose that's another way of saying.
Plus why physical communities and in-person networks matter more than, inverted commas, countries on the internet.
Even if the internet is still part of the strategy.
It's getting really chatty.
If you're feeling stuck in a place you love culturally but hate politically, this conversation is basically a field guide to staying optimistic without being naive while keeping your options open in a world that's tightening up.
That sounds like my stance during the conversation.
Actually, I think I was being a little bit negative.
That's the sense I got listening back to it.
I was a bit black-pilled on the world at this particular moment but it's also worth mentioning
because I noticed this listening back to some of these interviews and this was one of them
I was acutely aware of how tired I had actually become during this interview lots of r's and ums
and it's funny I've noticed that my brain does start slowing down after a certain period of time
This was my fourth interview of that day.
And I think what I'm realizing is that my mind works best at about two or three interviews.
But at four, I start to get a bit suboptimal, which you may discover in this particular interview.
Maybe I'm just getting old.
Surely that can't be.
Anyway, value for value heroes.
Many thanks to you.
I appreciate you.
and a big hi this week to Aaron brand new sub thank you you made it into the OG category as
far as I'm concerned so congratulations and welcome comments this week um let's have a look
we've got hypno from seedkeys.xyz it's a good way to get a little add-on here isn't it I wonder what
Seed keys dot X, Y, Z is.
He says, anyway, some good insights here.
He's talking about Yaron Brook.
Why Atlas Shrugged keeps happening.
I don't agree with some of Yaron's points.
And I had a hard time with his style sometimes.
I guess it's the PhD talk.
But I enjoyed what I got out of the discussion.
Yeah, I kind of I could kind of go with that.
He's a seasoned speaker, obviously.
And you get that sense.
and that's maybe what you're referring to there in the phd talk he has his own very popular youtube
channel and i think he does it every single day more than an hour so there's a lot of talking
points there that have already been talked uh right next in line how do i say that nadeshal
nadeshal i wonder what that means i'm just going to look that up pronounce nadeshal and meaning
nadeschlu oh nadeschlu nadeschlu or nadeschle oh i love a new good word likely a rare german
or swiss german surname with no widely agreed meaning it may derive from a regional nickname
or an altered place or family name so precise definition is uncertain let's go with a super
German Swiss surname. Anyway, Nadeshlu's comment was about the news, the Venezuelan news episode,
which I put out after our call the other day. Best news in centuries. And I would tend to agree
with you there if you've missed that news report. It was from one of our private foundation calls
and check it out.
Very optimistic views from inside Venezuela at the moment.
And I try and summarize them in that episode.
Right.
It's all happening in Latin America.
Hey, big episode about LATAM, Venezuela.
Is it going to be Cuba next?
I think a lot of people think so.
Anyway, right.
Time for the conversation.
Time to find freedom and, of course, your best life.
whilst you sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Mikhail Thorup.
How did you find Kazakhstan then?
Kazakhstan was okay. Kyrgyzstan was a pleasant surprise. It was pretty spectacular actually.
Do you like wilderness places and stuff?
I do but I am more interested in people I would say like if I think about why I like to travel
yes natural beauty is one thing I like the mountains sure but I like meeting people I
think people are very very interesting well there's a good start then I'm the same I've I spent many
years um making documentaries purely about people but not necessarily modern people okay Are you interested in that side of people the kind of origins of people Very much You know I like a lot of the history I been traveling for 25 years straight now
And I think that is what drives me a lot of times
is trying to understand,
like, why do certain people do certain things?
You know, it's the perspective of a group of people.
And it's like, okay, well, why do you eat this type of food?
Why is the language like this?
Why is your mindset like that?
You know, we get so caught up in the West on, you know, like our, our Western society,
you know, Western democracies are, are the best in the way that everybody should be.
And it's just like, well, that's not really the case.
You know, there's actually a lot of different civilizations.
There's a lot of different ways to view the world and perspective is really, really interesting.
My wife is from mainland China.
And a lot of people kind of think that she's, you know, maybe what we would call an ABC,
American born Chinese.
And it's like, no, no, she was born and raised in China for more than 20 years. Her first language is Mandarin, you know, and the way that China is under attack right now by the West and trying to be painted as the villain is ridiculous.
Like in a lot of cases, these are normal people who want the same thing as everybody else.
And we're just being manipulated by governments to try to vilify each other's population so that they can, you know, go to war with one another and throw stones.
And it makes no sense.
And when you try to understand things from other people's perspectives, you know, you realize that we really are the same in a lot of these cases.
We want the same things.
We want a roof over our head and, you know, a full belly.
We want to be loved and we want to give love.
You know, these types of things are the same.
But I find, you know, the cultural aspects of traveling and seeing people in their native environment super, super interesting.
What do you think then about the human quality of desiring liberty and freedom?
Because it doesn't appear to be as widespread as you might think.
Like when you, if you've got kids.
I got four.
Right.
Kids, you know, open the car door next to a big field and the kids just run out into the field.
They want freedom.
And you could easily conclude from that that, yeah, we just all want freedom.
But by the time you make it into the world we're in, you kind of, I think anyway, you kind of see it's actually quite a minority of people that actually really want it.
So what's going on there?
I think that a lot of people, they, if you ask them, do they want freedom?
Sure, I want freedom.
But what does that mean?
And, you know, there's so many different types of freedom.
I think that we have to get a little bit more granular on these types of things.
So it's okay.
Freedom of speech.
So I can say what I want to say.
Okay.
Freedom of assembly.
I can go.
I can protest.
I can, you know, have my voice heard.
Freedom of movement.
This is a big portion of my work as an offshore consultant.
It's freedom of movement to be able to cross borders or travel or enter into, to visit to
different places.
But there's all kinds of negative freedoms as well.
Freedom from coercion, freedom from violence and things like this.
I think if you start looking at that and you asking people like, do you want to live in a safe country? It's like, yes, I want to live in a safe country. You know, you can you can list all these things. We're going to agree about all of them. But everything in life is is a give and take. So I've seen people living in, you know, dictatorships who are fine because of certain things that they get out of this relationship, you know, and I'm very much a voluntarist. I believe that people can do with what they want.
if you, you know, to tie it back to China, if you ask Chinese people, they're super happy.
They love being in China. China is amazing for them. They have so much opportunity. They can do
anything they want in the world, as long as it is within these confines. You know, if we look at it
from the US perspective, it's not a free country whatsoever. Although I think there is some, you
know, major misunderstanding about what China is and what China is not. And I think that that's not
by accident. I think a lot of this is just mainstream media and, you know, just a slander
campaign. I'm not saying that I believe China is a free place by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm just talking about perspective. They've been willing to give up certain freedoms to gain others.
What does your wife think when she looks back then? I take it you live,
you both live outside of China. We do, we do. We live in Panama City, Panama,
which I would make the argument is the most libertarian place in the world. You have more
freedoms there than anywhere I've seen. And by the way, I've traveled to more than 120 countries.
So I actually kind of know what I'm talking about. I've actually been out here for 25 years
searching for freedom, looking for freedom in all of its forms. I feel very free in Panama.
Now, a lot of people would probably make an assumption that my wife like fled China or she
was searching for freedom. And that's why she left. No, she left because she wanted an adventure.
She wanted to go and do something new, and her parents were very open to the idea and encouraged her to go out into the world and travel and learn new languages and have international experience.
But her parents still live in China.
We still go back to China many times a year.
It's been a little bit more difficult in Panama, but when we lived in the UAE for a decade, we were there many, many times a year.
My kids speak Mandarin Chinese.
you know my wife does one parent one language so she only speaks to the kids in mandarin
but i mean i think that if i could work from china and get past the great firewall i think
she'd be very happy to move back to china uh it's not something that you know i'm willing to do or
would want to do but um you know once again perspective is very interesting what do you
think about that if you look at i mean a lot of people think i suppose that the the future holds
two kind of worlds one would be the authoritarian techno state type which i i think it's fair to say
we see a pretty advanced version of that currently in china the the the fact that there are scores
for algorithmic scores for things this kind of stuff which from one perspective it's a super
efficient way to do away with the need even really for lawyers and legal things you just stop people
doing things using algorithms and then on the other hand you've got this other world of i suppose
the the libertarian west which obviously arguably doesn't exist but but if you if you if you if you
were to look at america you could say the spirit is probably there somewhere this idea that there's
the frontier. Buried deep. Yeah, buried, sure. Buried deep, deep, deep down.
But so do you, I mean, first of all, do you think that that binary is real and important?
And number two, do you think that there's no stopping this thing?
You know, here's my opinion. China is very upfront about things, and the West are a bunch
of liars. So it's not that China has this totalitarian regime, techno state, etc, etc.
The West has it too, but it's hidden. It's under the surface, but it's there. It's the same. It is
absolutely the same. It's just one is in your face about it and one is not. I'll give you an example.
So China had the one child policy, right? They looked at it and they had this Malthusian type of
thought process that there's too many people and we're going to run out of resources. So we're
going to only allow populations to have one child. Okay. I completely disagree with this perspective.
I think it's wrong on every single level. I stand in stark opposition of it. I think that we need
more people and more children. Okay. But just run with me on this. China was very upfront about the
one child policy. The U S and Canada and then these Western so-called Western democracies were
not. But what do they do? They do mandatory vaccination for children under the age of six
years old, they do programs that sterilize people, they encourage people to have families later and
later and later, where you're now butting into biological age restraints. So now, the same type
of thing happened it still most families will only have one child or maybe on average you looking at the US which is one of the highest numbers is 1 children per female Okay Canada is lower You know if you look at Spain or Italy they at like 1
If you look at Korea or Japan, they're sub one.
So we actually have a population collapse.
China did it and told you what they were doing.
And Western democracy did the same thing, but they hid about it and they lied about it.
you you if you want to understand me tim you have to understand i hate liars okay like i hate the
the hypocrisy of the whole thing right so um i would rather be in a type of situation where
we are absolutely free on all of these types of things but if we're not going to be free then at
least tell me the truth about it stop being such liars there's a there's something i've noticed
even within my lifetime i'm only 54 but that kind of move towards more esoteric kind of control
is a result of i think people would say this kind of intellectual class basically having to be a bit
more sneaky um i think in the west we now have this way this kind of we we've trended towards
this place where if you came out if trump got up on the stage and said right one person one child
there'd be absolute uproar 100 um but but like you say he has to be a bit more esoteric you see
it also i like the most fascinating places in advertising when i was a kid it'd be like
you know eat your greens they make you stronger that's how you sell green things you know and now
it's like i'm looking at a picture of god knows what i don't even know why it's selling me you
know like tomatoes but because it's a car it's a pink car you know you have to be so esoteric
because we've got this kind of um yeah it's a culture of um i forget it's very late in the day
but there's a word that describes this exact thing which is um why we can't be told why it's
why it's not cool to be told it directly it has to be esoteric for you to understand it therefore
I'm, oh yeah, I get it. You know, and that's where we are. And, and, um, I, I agree with you. I'm,
I'm, I would rather someone just said, look, this is what I'm going to do. Cause that gives me a way
to choose how I'm going to respond to it. And in a way, and then I didn't, a lot of people would
disagree with me here, but that's kind of what I liked about Trump. He, he lied like he lies like
all politicians, but I can, I can kind of read his lies. I kind of expect it. You know, this was
chatting to I think it was Yaron yesterday about this and when he was up against Hillary.
I don't like the way Hillary lies but I kind of respect the way Trump lies because it's so stupid
and I go yeah so that's a lie but so what? I can read that lie. Sure. You know so yeah I'm with you
on the esoteric stuff but come on then so China like it's relatively unusual to hear
someone speak about China in a positive way like that?
What I'm talking about is perspective of a population towards their situation.
That's what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about I praise the Chinese government or CPP or anything like that.
I'll give you another example.
I lived in the Middle East for almost a decade.
And I lived at a time when it was very unpopular to be in the Middle East.
And if you watch mainstream media, they'll tell you that all Muslims are going to kill the infidels and chop your hands off and all of these types of things.
And that is not a reflection of the larger Muslim world or population on any stretch of the imagination.
I've been to almost every Islamic country in the world, and I have found some of the most peaceful and beautiful people and generous people ever in the Islamic world.
But mainstream media is telling you the opposite of that.
I think the real culprit in a lot of this are the liars at the top.
My invitation to you is to go out there and find out for yourself.
That's what I'm asking you to do.
And it's the same point with China.
I have all these people who want to comment to me about what China is like.
And he had never been there.
So you've ended up in Panama.
Talk to me about the process of that.
Like what's going on in Panama?
You sound like you would have thought it through deeply.
and you've ended up in Panama.
So there must be something going on there.
So I've lived in nine different countries
over the last 25 years of being an expat.
Panama is one of those countries.
I think Panama has an amazing amount of things going for it.
They have a pro-business right-leaning government.
It is what we call a territorial tax country.
So if you earn your money outside of the country,
there is no tax inside the country, okay?
There's also no tax on capital gains.
They've come outright and said there's no tax on Bitcoin or any other type of digital assets.
They have a very small VAT.
It's 7%.
There's no corporate tax if done overseas.
There's no wealth tax or inheritance tax, death tax.
There's very little import duties or anything like that.
So right off the bat, we're doing really well here, okay?
When you add in that it is a safe and stable country, it's a US dollar country.
You've got the U.S. dollar for more than 120 years has been U.S. dollar.
Not that I'm a big proponent for the U.S. dollar, but I'm sure glad to have that in my wallet instead of the Bolivia or the peso or something like this and 100% inflation every year.
And then you've got the Caribbean, the Atlantic.
You've got the Pacific.
You've got mountains.
You've got beaches.
You've got organic food, fantastic medical facilities.
You've got Cayo San Quinto, the banking district.
You've got Casco Viejo, a 500-year-old colonial town.
Right in the heart of Panama City, you've got man-made islands,
just like they did in Dubai.
But instead of being done by a sovereign state,
it's done by a private corporation.
I mean, it's pretty amazing.
Why is this then?
Why is the government not taxing you much, number one?
Because that's bucking a trend in the world, let's say.
So what they're able to do in Panama is that they've diversified the income into the country
to be able to pay for the services.
And they're doing it in non-tax dollars.
The main one is actually the company registration.
So I would put company registration and banking as some of the biggest ones.
So if you take Hong Kong out of the mix, Panama is the largest jurisdiction in the world for
corporations.
Now, I say take Hong Kong out of the mix.
Not that I want to discount that, but because Hong Kong is going down and Panama is going
up.
So it won't be long until this crosses.
Okay.
So this is why we say that Panama is the center of the offshore world.
And then I mentioned Cayo Cinquenta.
We've got more than 50, 55 international banks on one strip, one major road running through
the center of the country.
This is huge amount of money that comes in.
Now, when you add in other things like the Panama Canal, which brings in over $5 billion
worth of revenue every single year into the country, when you add in Tucumán Airport,
which is a huge, huge international airport and a hub. Copa Airlines is the oldest running
commercial airline on planet Earth. It's not American Airlines or Delta or something like that,
or even Lufthansa. It's Copa. It's a Panamanian airline, and it services the entire region,
South America, the Caribbean, Central America, and North America. So, I mean, there is a lot of
other things that are going in to driving the economy where they don't have to tax people.
Now, if you look at the Middle East, the GCC countries, they also have huge economic drivers
without having to go into taxation, except that's oil and oil is running out and they
know that it's running out and they need to diversify.
The Panama Canal is still going to be relevant in 10 years and 20 years and 50 years.
It's still going to be relevant.
Banking and all of these other types of things that exist in Panama will still be relevant
where the GCC is going in the opposite direction.
And that's why we see this huge change there.
Does it have a history of socialism at all?
I know nothing about Panama Does it have any bad points Like is this a conscious kind of long strategy that someone or some party has decided to implement So Noriega was out 40 years ago Since that moment it has been a very good open and free society
And things like the Panama Canal have meant that it made sense to keep it as freer places possible economically, let's say.
Well, I made this point at the Free Cities Conference, which was absolutely fantastic this year, that Panama is not just the plan B destination for Canadian expats or Australians or Brits or Americans.
It's also the plan B destination for all of the countries in South America as they went socialist.
So when Venezuela went socialist, people either went to Miami if they could get in, and if they couldn't, it was Panama.
Bolivia, Peru, all these countries, when they went socialist, all the money came to Panama, okay?
They put it into real estate.
They put it into the banks.
It's a very stable environment.
So they might allow their country to go to hell in a handbasket and down into socialism.
But they're not going to let their bank account, you know, go down the toilet.
and what about the fact that i mean does is there any any chance that the democratic system might
screw this up so we had the main elections may of last year and um there was five five parties
running and i think we would have been okay with any of the five we ended up getting raul molino
and um it was very interesting i was actually doing a jobs fair i was hiring staff for my family
office there. I interviewed 30 some odd people that day. And one of the questions I asked them,
all Panamanians, all Panamanians, I asked them, you know, we just had the election this week.
What did you think? It was either, yes, I love Raul Molino. He's going to do an excellent job. Or,
hey, he's not the guy that I voted for, but I'm still super bullish about it. And I'm really
excited to see what he's going to do. Another point is none of them were socialists. Okay.
None of the five candidates were commies. These were all right-leaning. They were not arguing
on these big philosophical things or, you know, personal freedoms versus economic freedoms or
any of these types of things. It was more like, hey, should we put a little bit more money into
tourism or should we put a little bit more money into infrastructure? You know, it's like
all right-leaning type of economic activities, just small variations in that.
And you're saying that possibly that's because it was always a destination for people fleeing
socialism so it's just in the blood hence my point on probably the most libertarian country in the
world that sounds pretty good i mean i've never been there and there's a character the name even
carries a certain kind of mystique to it the man panama hats and people getting tailor-made suits
and you know i take it the standard of living is pretty good there it's extremely good i mean panama
City specifically is as first world as you're going to get. I mean, it is gorgeous there.
People seem to think that we live in, you know, thatched roof grass huts and stuff like that.
And they get there and it's like skyscrapers and manmade islands and all these things. But I'll
make an invitation to you, Tim. Why don't you come to our conference, March 6th and 7th, Panama City,
Panama, 2026. We're doing the Wealth, Freedom and Passports Conference. Love to welcome you and show
you around i'd love to come i'm patrick always going on about it you know i was on his podcast
the other day and it's always saying welcome to sunny panama you know it's like so you're
referring to pat patrick yes yes so patrick hebert is my very dear friend he's the godfather
of my children i'm an investor in his company i introduced him to the free cities i helped make
this happen i'm a massive fan of patrick and what he does and i'm so happy to be supporting
his vision for Veritas and our projects in Panama are world class. And I don't know if he had a
chance to tell you about the important work we're doing in Costa Rica, but we've got some really
interesting projects happening in that region, really starting in 2026. But he's awesome.
Yeah, he is. And I think he's the perfect fit. I think what I love about what they're doing is that
it's a kind of market driven thing.
There is, he was a developer, let's say.
He was creating something.
He realized that he wanted something more
and then he realized so did the market
and then he created it.
And it's all good.
It's all good.
It's a brilliant idea.
And I don't know that many,
like I don't know actually anyone else
pitching sort of like communities
the same way that he's doing now.
But almost certainly there will be more because this is the time we live in.
And, you know, since 2020, Jesus, I mean, which is what spurred him on to sort of realize that actually, you know, I think, as I said to him today, I said, what, you know, he was him and Alex were here and they're talking about the Bitcoin strategy and all this kind of stuff.
I'm thinking you're a Bitcoin Citadel company.
That's what you are, not a Bitcoin treasury company.
you know there's no one out there who's really
adhering to the to the ideas of the bitcoin citadel they're fully bitcoin on board they're
fully into the libertarian side of it into the non-aggression you know i think they're out of
all the place all the people that talk about it they're the only ones that i know that are really
really actually doing it you know i introduced them together they were at my birthday party
several years ago and i sat them down in a room and i said you guys have to work together
and what's your history with patrick then how do you i've known patrick for seven years he came
over to the uae we met uh when i was living in abu dhabi and um and then i moved to panama and then i
encouraged him to move to panama as well so we're next door neighbors and uh he's my best friend
and what's your connection with free cities in the beginning then
who um i don't even remember i mean i've been around this movement for quite a while and um i
think we were talking about it on my podcast probably seven or eight years ago you know when
it was a lot more, uh, less advanced, let's say, than it is right now. Was it just the ZAs or you
were talking to me even prior to that? No, I think it was probably with the ZAs and stuff like that.
I mean, I've been in the freedom movement for a very long time and, uh, you know, my path to
libertarianism is probably pretty different than a lot of other people's. Um, I dropped out of
school when I was 12 years old and, uh, yeah. So can you drop out of school at 12? How do you do
that? Well, I did. I mean, what happened was I was dyslexic. I am dyslexic. I was diagnosed with
a learning disability when I was a child. I went to a special school for three years. Problem though,
Tim, was that it was actually a regular school with a special class. So I got into tons of fights
and picked on and bullied and it was all around a horrible experience. And after three years,
I got to go back to my neighborhood school and I thought, oh, my friends, they're going to be so
excited to see me and they will have missed me and stuff. And everybody starts whispering and
gossiping. And oh, I remember Mikkel, he went to some retard school. Thanks very much. Kids,
kids very, you know, sensitive, sensitive. But it left a very bad taste in my mouth for public
education, for state run education. So I stopped going. And when I stopped going, I started failing.
And when I stopped, started failing, I just, I just decided to be done. So I stopped going to
school at 12. I officially dropped out at 15. And I started traveling internationally a year or two
after that. And I've dedicated my life to exploring the world and searching for freedom. So I came to
libertarianism through public education. Now, did I know, you know, 30 years later, that, you know,
I would be, you know, an outspoken proponent for freedom. And that, you know, I'd be running a
multi million dollar business and investing around the world. No, I didn't. But I did know the
situation was wrong and I knew that I had to peacefully remove myself from this
situation and for me that was dropping out at a very young age.
Tell me if I'm prying too deeply but what did your mother or mother and father
think about you dropping out of school?
So you know it wouldn't it wasn't like okay we're gonna sit down and have this
family discussion about what we should do. This was more of a I would just stop
going and I was a willful child. I mean I'm a willful adult okay
but I was a willful child and I would do anything not to go. So I would pack my bags and I would get
dressed and my parents would see me leave for the day to walk to school. And then I'd go hang out
in the forest or I'd go and, you know, go for a walk somewhere or they would drive off for work.
And then when the car was gone, then I'd go back home and I would hang out and relax. And then I
would, I would time things. I just knew that I couldn't be in this situation. For me, it was
completely abusive. I think that public education is a prison sentence and it's a complete waste of
a child's life. And as far as anyone can convince me, Tim, we have a certain amount of time on
planet Earth. And I have, I do not believe in wasting the first 10 or 15 years of a child's
life and putting them in a system which is just meant to brainwash them. You know, to circle back
to what we were saying before about mainstream media and the powers that be and how they try
to control things. For me, that's what public education is. They're just trying to get you
earlier and earlier and earlier. This is why we have inflation. This is why it used to be that,
you know, you could have the breadwinner in the family. They could go out and earn money and
support their family. Then you had to have the wife enter the workforce. Now we're at the point
where both the husband and the wife have to have two jobs, which means that the child is going to
the state earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier. It used to be, you know, a couple of
years the mother could stay home with the child. Those days are gone, right? I'm in a very blessed
situation. I work from home. I have four children who we homeschool. My wife is a stay-at-home
mother. She hasn't worked in 10 years, and she probably will never have a traditional nine-to-five
job ever again. I mean, her job is being a mother, which is the most rewarding and important job on
planet Earth. But the state doesn't like things like this, right? They want to get your children
as fast as possible. So you went, did you say that you first went traveling at 17? Yes. Was that
backpacking by any chance? Yes, absolutely. And where did you go? So my first trip was- You grew
up in Canada, sorry. Yes, southwestern Ontario. I went to Ireland, England and Wales when I was 17
for about a month. I came back, I worked a little bit and then by probably about 18, I was out in
Western Canada. No, sorry. I went again first at 18 or 19. I was through Europe and then I ran out
of money and I went to North Africa. I spent two months in Morocco. I took a camel to try to enter
into Algeria, three days on a camel. You know, it's quite amazing what you'll do when you have
no fear of death and, you know, just enjoying yourself. And, you know, these are things that
I probably wouldn't do now and I probably wouldn't encourage my kids to do, but I did
at, you know, 18, 19 years old. Then I was 18 months in the ski resorts in Western Canada
and then 18 months hitchhiking through Mexico and El Salvador and Honduras and, you know,
all the way through Central America. I spent four years in the South Pacific between New
Zealand and Australia, a year in Singapore. I lived 366 days in the Canadian High Arctic
next to Greenland.
That's pretty specific.
Yeah.
366.
I had a one-year contract,
and the day after my contract finished,
I got on an airplane and I got out of there.
Why?
Because it's just a horrible place.
I mean, it was really natural beauty.
Okay, to go back to one of your original questions,
natural beauty, spectacular.
Unbelievable natural beauty.
You see the Aurora Borealis every single night
for months on end, okay?
Gorgeous, gorgeous place.
But it's a broken society. They're basically native reserves there with the Inuit, the Inuktitut. And it was very depressing. I worked at the crisis line. I would be getting phone calls from people. And I remember I got one call from a young lady. And she's like, I have to take care of my two younger siblings because my mother just killed herself.
and she killed herself because my brother killed himself and she couldn't handle it like what do i
do and i'm like jesus like i i don't even know what to say in a situation like this it was just
a completely destroyed culture and society and people and i my heart breaks for them still um
i've spent a fair bit of time up in those northerly places and i i know what you mean
alcoholism rife meaninglessness but there's also i mean they are brutal places anyway
but i think when you actually my my conclusion after probably spending about six months around
there is that the traditional way of life that they had which had which was full of meaning does
not um work with the modern the modern world doesn't work in that environment it has to be
And no, I'm not saying they would even want to go back to living, you know, an authentic traditional life, but the traditional life did work in the sense that the meaning was there.
But now, when you just plant a box in a place like Northern Canada or Greenland and live in it, there's not much to do.
If you're not out there struggling to live, it just ends up being something you just sit down and you end up getting drunk.
And they're not very good at getting drunk either.
And then it turns into a nightmare.
And I found some very depressing places up there.
It was the most depressing place I've ever been in my life.
And once again, natural beauty, one of the most stunning, beautiful places in the world.
But I think that this is a expression of what is going to happen for UBI, universal basic income, because without purpose, without meaning, without struggle, I think this is what's going to happen.
And really, that is what it is.
They have UBI up there.
Okay. And, you know, we're, we're, you know, as a Caucasian, I have to get down on my knee and I
have to apologize for, you know, something that had nothing to do with me that I was not involved
in that even my ancestors didn't have anything involved in, but to make amends for that, we need
to give money on a, on a regular basis to it. And really what it does is it keeps people down.
You're not helping them. You're not, you're not empowering them. You're destroying them and you're,
you're perpetuating that destruction. It's a really, um, disgusting thing. And, um, and I
believe it's coming to a city near you. So do I, but like, be honest, if you could change that,
how, how would you, and I'm being in a realistic sense, like how, how could you, we, it's like,
we're beyond the point of no return as far as I'm concerned, you know, I would agree with you.
I mean, I think the damage is done.
I don't think, I do not have a solution
to fix any of these types of communities.
It's not my type of work.
It's not what I focus on.
You know, I think that, you know,
my focus is on helping families
to get out of the abusive relationship
they have with their government.
You know, sever this Stockholm syndrome,
you know, and get out.
Now, what's happening in places like the Arctic?
I don't know the solution for that.
But even the West,
ubi is coming for us too for sure and it's amazing how many people think it's a good idea
i mean it's free it it's free money inverted commas it looks great and obviously the theory
is that with all this free money that you will pursue other things which doesn't appear to
historically be true um but but it is coming and and when i asked how do we solve that problem
I know the theory how we solve it because we are all doing it.
But how do you solve it on mass?
I think showing someone an alternative.
I don't think that people even know that there are options out there.
And I think that's why the free cities is so incredibly important.
That's why I am a donor.
That's why I am a sponsor.
That's why I come and speak.
You know, I fly to the other side of the world to come and speak at these conferences.
That's why I give, you know, my own money to support these types of organizations because I believe in the movement.
And I truly believe in my heart of hearts that this is a viable solution But also I mean just there a culture that would refuse to take UBI for example It a culture And it the culture that
possibly at its heart understands how damaging UBI could be. But also many, I mean, many people,
probably most people would probably take it even if they knew that, because I know a lot of people
that would take it and just buy Bitcoin with it, for example. And now, is that right? Would you,
you know, like, is that right or wrong? I don't know. I mean, it's, everything in life is give
and take. So what are they going to take from you, for you accepting the Bitcoin, or sorry,
accepting the UBI, right? I mean, I think that the majority of the people, the idea is,
you know, with AI and robotics and all of these types of things, well, people won't need to work
anymore. And, you know, so it's going to be this just sustainable level, but you're never going to
be able to move past that, right? Well, that doesn't interest me. You know, I run my wealth
through a family office, you know, we're considered an ultra high net worth family. You know, we are
not looking just for, you know, scraping by or just having these creature comforts. This is also
what we were talking about with China and the different types of freedoms and what you're giving
up and what you're getting in return, right? So, you know, you make a decision in your life, like,
what do you want out of life? For me, I want it all. I want the successful marriage. I want the
beautiful, healthy, happy children. I want to travel and enjoy myself and have interesting
conversations with people that I enjoy spending time with. I want it all. And I don't want to be
held down under someone's thumb and told me, just take what you've been given and that's enough for
you. Do you think there'll always be an arbitrage opportunity? Yes. Because you could, you could
predict that there won't, you could predict that everything trends. I'm not blackpilled on these
things though. I am completely not blackpilled. I am an optimist. I am out here fighting for freedom
every day on the front lines, by the way. I'm the practical side of these things. Everything that I
do as a consultant. We're dealing with the real life things. It's not pie in the sky, dreams or
something like that. It's like, how do you pay less taxes today? Not in 10 years from now, not 50 years
from now. Today, how do you get out of this? How do you separate yourself from your government today?
How do you protect your wealth and your ability to provide for your family today? These are the
types of things. And I refuse to be blackpilled over it. I suppose what I mean then is that
going back to earlier on in this conversation where we kind of well i don't know whether you
agree with me actually but i see a minority of people that really truly believe in freedom
um you could argue then that if that scaled up to the size of the world means unless all those
people are in roughly the same place we're quite diluted around the world okay but define
believing in freedom. Define that for me. I mean, people that are conscious of the notion that
freedom is a, is a thing worth having. Right. So, or, I mean, even it could even be something,
I mean, what you see generally around the world is that people have this base level understanding
that society involves the state telling you what to do and they, and they don't even kind of really
know it's there. I didn't for many years. I just, that was just something I assumed. It was like a
subconscious belief. And when I, when I, when I was, and it took a lot to challenge it. It took a
lot of conversations and a lot of people that had already challenged it to actually show me that,
that that was something that is just some made up thing. It's literally just, it's two mafia
organizations fighting for you. It's like, you know, it's as simple as that. But that takes a lot.
and I think it takes a lot and I wasn't even trying to understand that I was I was trying
but it started with the with freedom it started with someone telling me I couldn't go out of my
house really that's when it really started kicking in do you know what I mean sure so so those those
people like because a lot of people when around where I live when they were told you can't leave
the house they just stayed in the house I didn't I went out and deliberately wasn't in my house
yeah and and and you know it was painful it was painful being around people have in why aren't you
why aren't you following you know so i i don't know whether we're we're a minority and if we're
like i say and if we're not all in the same place at the same time or at least kind of i think we get
a bit too diluted don't we i mean i would love to see a area where people can spend more time
together and talk about these ideas and build things we have it for entrepreneurship we have
it for startup cities and things like that. I think a physical space is extremely important
for freedom minded people. Now, I do trap I do trips with my clients and I bring them to places
and I show them alternatives that are out there. You know, we just did a trip to Paraguay a few
weeks ago. I had 50 clients who are paying to come on this trip and we're showing them around
Paraguay and what's going on and show them the large economic drivers and stuff. But the number
one comment that I get from people, and I get it every single time I've hosted dozens upon dozens
upon dozens of tours, is how amazing it is to spend time with other like-minded people. How
freeing that is to be able to speak your mind and not worried about being judged. You know, it's like
they've been carrying around a backpack filled with bricks, and finally they get to put it down.
You know, I think it's really a beautiful thing. And this is why I do believe in physical spaces,
physical events, tours, trips, communities, what we're doing with Veritas, which I helped develop.
I think that we do need things in the physical. You see a lot in the freedom movement,
countries on the internet and stuff like that. I'm like, this is not going to do anything.
We need to have it in person. I'm not a massive proponent. I think the countries on the internet
thing is part of a strategy. And I'll tell you why. This one, I've come to understand recently.
I was in Liberland recently.
And Liberland, you know, like it or hate it, it's there and it's an interesting thing.
But what Liberland are realizing is that Liberland is this specific place, Kornosuga,
but it's also Ark, which is in Serbia.
And now I think they've even got a community in Paraguay starting.
And so what you realize is Liberland is also an idea.
it's the idea of having a self-sovereign place so it's it started as a we want this bit of land
but the that side of it the kind of internet the people on the internet side of it is is also part
of the movement and in fact the more people that i mean you reach a bigger audience on the internet
anyway so but and the more people that get on board on the internet the more power you do actually
have in the real world and i think that's where the the network state people do have a point
you know like you can do it with digital nomads if you if you are a digitally nomad influencer and
you have enough people who follow you you can say right guys like why don't we all move to
georgia sign here your intent is to move to georgia i'll take it to the government i'll say
look i can bring 5 000 people here you know it does work it's just i think that when it starts
on the internet it's too easy to the barrier to entry about creating an internet company
an internet country is very low as opposed to what you know here's my point i have a large
internet community of people who listen to my show the expat money show who visit our website
who are on our newsletter at expatmoney.com it's amazing i love you guys you're fantastic
but that's not enough right that's not enough we need to spend time in person okay digital is
i like technology but it's just it's not a substitute to sitting here in person with you
Tim and having a conversation. It's a different feel. It has a different vibration. Everything
is different about it I spent the last couple of days with 400 people in a room watching presentations It not the same Like if I was watching it on YouTube it a pale comparison of real life My point is that we need to be physically out there in the
world, not just online. It might be a good starting point, but it's not enough.
You mentioned earlier that a core part of what you do revolves around freedom of movement.
that's quite a contentious issue i mean um we've just lived through the biggest
movement against freedom of movement in the history of the world i would imagine i don't
think we've ever seen a global move to stop people moving and you're not black-pilled
still i'm not black-pilled because i watch my children and i watch them play and i see
human flourishing around me. And I think there's so many exciting things to be happen. And if I
become completely blackpilled, they've won and I won't let them win. I will go to my grave
fighting these bastards and fuck them. You know, like this is my life and I'm going to do what I
want with my life. And, um, and that's it. No, I agree. I agree. I think I, I do spend more time
than many strategizing the future i must admit and i wouldn't say i'm black-pilled but i would
say that for example what i'm not good at which you alluded to earlier is the fact that i for
example i live in the uk i and i love where i live but i hate the circumstances of where i live
okay so i'm making a trade-off my trade-off is i even own a house which i'm thinking is a liability
now which is even worse now because there's something that we've plowed a lot of money
into over 40 years which now i'm thinking jesus i don't even want that anymore so i'm paying
my trade-offs are getting more and more and more but i have children embedded into a community
there who love living there we're not about to move that's where the black pill comes for me
because i struggle i know what opportunities are there i know what's out there i look i'm
in this movement i see i've just been speaking to trey about trey goff about prosper and i'm like
jesus there's so much going on there you know of course i'd be living there of course i'd be living
there if i if i wasn't living where i'm living but i can't and that bugs me and what i struggle
with is making peace with that, I think.
Well, can't is kind of a difficult word, right?
Because, I mean, you could.
I could, you're absolutely right, yeah.
I mean, you don't want to.
It goes back to our conversation,
you know, give and take,
trades and things like that.
It's going to cost you more
than you're willing to spend,
which is fine, you know.
My point is not everybody needs
to move offshore today.
My point is you should probably
take a look around,
see what else is out there,
just get educated,
keep an open mind,
and just, you know, keep your eyes open.
So what do you see?
What's the main strategy you see currently?
And be country specific, you know, what's everyone doing?
What are people generally doing?
Where are the movements coming to and from, you know?
I'll tell you what is popular, okay?
My client base is wealthy Americans and Canadians.
Call it 80, 90% are wealthy Americans and Canadians.
little bit of Europeans, a little bit of Brits, a little bit of Aussies, but let's call it the
bulk of the North Americans. The North Americans are moving to Latin America because in the past,
Latin America was not a free place. But if you look at it right now, it is by far the freest
area, geographical area in the world. It's not Europe or Asia or Africa or the Middle East or
any of these other places. It's Latin America and the Caribbean. And the popular countries are
are Costa Rica, Panama, Paraguay.
You know, there's other countries in Latin America
where you can pay zero taxes,
completely territorial tax country that are safe,
that have right-leaning pro-business governments.
There are viable options out there.
And what are the businesses?
Are these people that are bringing business with them?
Or are they, as in digital nomads,
can they operate in any jurisdiction?
Is there anyone moving to Panama, for example, to set up like a business, like something, build things, create things, you know?
Some, some.
I mean, once again, I can talk to you about like general things that I see or what I think is possible, or I can talk to you specifics on what I'm absolutely helping clients.
You have to understand that the bulk of my clients either fit into one of two buckets.
They're either highly paid professionals.
We're talking, you know, I have a client, he's a spine surgeon, he makes somewhere around $800,000 a year as a spine surgeon, you know, lawyers, you know, the largest client base I have are lawyers, I have more lawyers than anything else, because they understand the value of extremely highly specialized information and knowledge.
So it's kind of in this highly paid professional area or on the small business owner type of thing.
And a lot of the small business owners, they're just getting rid of their business.
They're done.
Actually, same on the other side.
They are early retirement.
They don't like what's happening with Obamacare and the insurance in the U.S.
They are feeling like they're under attack.
If you get sued in the U.S., it's not going to just be a small thing.
They're going to wipe you out.
you know, insurance for doctors in the United States, it doesn't cover what you're being sued
for. Your insurance might cover you up to $2 million, but you're being sued for $10 million.
So, and it's not a question of, you know, if you are going to get sued. Accountants, nurses,
doctors, lawyers, these are the four professions that get sued more than anybody else. And the
insurance doesn't cover it. So why are you going to continue to play when at any day you can be
wiped out? So they're retiring now at 50, 55, you know, and they're done and they're coming down to
Latin America and they're doing philanthropic work. They're doing charity. They're taking up
paddle or surfing or tennis or something like this. And then they're enjoying their life.
That's what I was going to say, actually, because we went to, amongst other places,
Mexico during the pandemic to sort of get away from the restrictions, my whole family.
And I met a lot of people. We went to Oaxaca, which was, and at the time we went to a very
Spanish place a very Mexican place and it was great spent months there it was beautiful and
not we didn't see a lot of foreigners but we did see a number of Canadians who had retired there
and um that I did hear the story quite a few times of people saying you know well we just
sold up back home because life is so much better here um but then I did I noticed there were two
types of people there were the people that basically turned into alcoholics pretty much
they were they got up and they started drinking at sort of like nine o'clock in the morning in a
in a not in a kind of completely debauched way but they were just or there were people that
realized shit after a couple of months of just living my dream life i didn't like it i needed
to be doing something i met someone who got quite religious i mean you know so what what did people
do when they do this? Humans need to be productive. We need to put our hearts and soul into something.
I don't have to work anymore, Tim. I could retire tomorrow at 42 years old. I was a multimillionaire
in my 30s. I do not need to work anymore. But I'm on a mission. I am out here trying to help people
and I feel like I was put on earth to do two things. One is to be a father. You're a father,
I'm sure you can resonate with this.
I've only got one thing, really.
Yeah.
To be honest, if I'm really honest, it's that.
I have a family goal and mission in life.
This is to be a father and a present husband.
And I have a professional goal, which is help families through a difficult transition.
And this is the purpose of my life.
And I feel so blessed to know what my purpose is in life and then just to run towards it at full steam because I know that is what I am here to do And is that because you feel like you found you worked out
the special sauce and now you just want to share it? I mean, yes, but I think that it is this type
of flow state. You know, when I work, when I get on the computer and I'm starting going through
these things or I'm hosting a tour or attending these conferences, having a conversations,
everything else disappears. And I know I am doing the right thing because it feels right.
You know, I can feel it in my soul. And yes, it's tiring. And yes, it's hard. But it's also
scratches a certain itch that I have in my brain. It's extremely complex puzzles that I need to
solve. And, and I just love being there at this transition moment of a client's life when they
they've come to me with, you know, all this stress and anxiety, and their shoulders are so raised,
and they're so stressed out.
And week after week, month after month
of working with them, their shoulders dropped,
their pitch and their cadence slow down.
And it's just like,
they are in a way more relaxed state.
And I just, I am absolutely addicted
to helping these people.
I think in my case, that's, I call it enthusiasm.
And I've always thought enthusiasm,
it's very simple to live your life, basically.
You do whatever you're enthusiastic about.
and there's probably some spiritual significance there
because enthusiasm, it's entheos, isn't it?
It's like God entering you or whatever, I don't know.
But it's very simple because if you do that,
you know, like I love doing podcasts.
Like literally yesterday at 7.30 in the evening,
I was sat here a bit like we are now
and I was almost hallucinating
talking to a very intellectual person
who was kind of outgunning me.
and I was like what am I saying I don't even know what I'm saying anymore like why am I here who am
I you know like thinking to myself but but I was excited as I am now I have a I have an excited
feeling inside me and I don't I don't know why but all I know is it's there and when I do that thing
that that that's what life is I get it with my kids as well showing my kids how to do all these
kind of things but i think it's one of the cheat codes in life because um if you find it you should
just do that thing you shouldn't worry about anything else if you're fortunate enough to have
that kind of leeway because it's often people choose to do non things they're not enthusiastic
about because of money and um it's very easy to but this is how they're going to sell the dream
of ubi and i don't think it's going to work out like that i don't think it's going to work no but
that. But the thing about UBI as well is UBI is a function of the central bank digital currency
system. It's a requirement of it really, because it's going to be used to get people on board with
that. I reckon it would be the perfect way. Except your Fed coin or whatever it's called.
Whatever it's called. Yeah. It's going to be like, here's some free money. Of course,
everyone's going to take it and that is you're onboarding a lot of people then to a wallet that's
on their phone then government services only get collected in it then this that that it's true by
the way is it great you can pay you can pay in panama you can pay the government in bitcoin right
it's correct exactly patrick told me that today i can't believe that yeah so our mayor of panama he
lives 10 seconds from my house we're next door neighbors mayor is mizraki he's a bitcoin maxi
He's like 37, 38 years old.
And he's doing some really incredible things
with Bitcoin in the country of Panama.
I've never heard, in the Bitcoin community,
that's not talked about.
People don't know.
I mean, everybody talks about El Salvador.
In reality, I'd say Panama is more friendly
towards Bitcoin than it is El Salvador.
Because El Salvador is not even a tax-free country.
It's not a territorial tax country.
But you do go to El Salvador, right?
Yeah, I do.
What do you think about the whole Bitcoin thing there then?
I think that they are doing excellent things,
but they got a lot of work to do.
And I want to help them and I want to support them.
And I've been down there and meeting with government officials
and all the big law firms there.
And I've been sat in all the rooms
and they got a lot of work to do.
But compare that and contrast with Panama then.
Why is Panama more Bitcoin friendly?
Because we have better laws.
To do with Bitcoin?
To do with everything.
The laws in El Salvador are horrible.
They have a horrible legal system.
I went through it and the disclosure of information about the company formations, about taxation.
Nobody actually looks at the laws.
They don't read the law.
But if you look at Panama, you contrast it.
I mean, the laws are all there.
Anybody can go and look them up.
What's the national government in Panama like then with regard to Bitcoin, for example?
I mean, I'm not sure that the current administration has large thoughts about it one way or another.
I think that a lot of it is being driven by the younger generation.
But I will absolutely make a prediction right here, right now.
Mayor Mizrahi will be the president of Panama.
It's not going to happen tomorrow, but give it 10 years, give it 20 years, he will be the president of Panama.
There's no question about it.
How can you say that so you're authoritatively?
Because I've watched, because I have eyes, because I can see what's going on.
I can see the enthusiasm.
People love him.
That's interesting.
So, like, tell me some more about Panama then.
Like, for example, how many districts are there?
When you say he's the mayor of this, like, what does that mean on a scale of?
So you have to understand, Panama is a very small country.
We're around 4 million people with just under half of them being in Panama City or the surrounding areas.
Panama is Panama City.
By and large, we have David, we have Bukete, which is a small town, we have Coronado, we have some stuff on the Caribbean.
But the bulk of Panama is Panama City.
OK, now the mayor of Panama has an amazing amount of power compared to mayors in other countries because it's not really a city state.
Right. If we look at other types of city states, you know, look at Singapore and things like this.
This is more, it's closer to that, I would say, than it is to a United States where it's this huge geographical area where you have different states and many different cities and things like that.
Panama really is a city state with some, you know, area where it produces its own agriculture and water and electricity and things like that.
The other cities are so much smaller and less influential on Panama as a whole than Panama City is.
What, the mayor of Panama City, does he know about free cities?
uh no but maybe i'll have to sit down and have a conversation with him about it what i mean what
about special just special economic zones are there we have the largest special economic zones
in the world so i'm very sure he's aware of those what's that cologne cologne free trade zone we have
knowledge village we have cologne free trade zone we have panama pacifico we have all of these free
trade zones this is the panama canal this is how panama canal exists these are the the the the reason
that Panama Canal can exist on these types of things.
Goods come in, they move them around
from shipping container to shipping container
and they repackage them and they send them back out.
Sometimes there's a value add,
sometimes it's just repackaging.
There's no tax, there's no import duties,
there's nothing like this.
I take it that you're interested in, of course.
Have you spoken to anyone there about?
Oh yes, oh yes.
I've brought Tidus there.
I've sat down in, we've had very important meetings.
Can you say something?
The problem is with Panama.
Panama doesn't need us.
Okay?
They don't need us whatsoever.
All right?
It's already a safe and stable country.
They already have massive amounts of foreign direct investment coming in.
They don't need us.
This is why you go to a place like Honduras, because nothing works there, because it's non-functional.
It's basically a failed state.
So they were open to ideas like this, because they needed foreign direct investment.
They needed things coming in.
But Panama is already set.
So it's like, it's just, it's not going to happen there, I don't think.
So do you think that the geopolitical landscape going forward then,
places that need them are going to have them and no one else is going to bother.
And I think that we will show, we will lead by example, and we will show a better way.
And then people will leave places like Dubai and Panama and Singapore and things like that,
and they will move to the free cities. And then I think these places will need to catch up.
Just like people are leaving New York and California and stuff and moving to Panama and
Costa Rica and all these countries, you know, and I think that there could be, maybe, will be,
hopefully a change to some of these progressive places one thing i've thought about dubai and the
emirates though is that they do seem to keep innovating they're not they're not sitting on
their laurels they could have stopped a number of times when you look through the history of
the evolution of the zones and the difc and all this kind of stuff they could have easily stopped
but they keep they seem to keep going what do you think makes them different from say
Well, Panama potentially could go further, right?
According to you.
It could go further.
And I am going to encourage them to go further.
And I know a lot of the mayors and I run, I write, you know, professional opinion letters
to the government.
And I sit in meetings with the ministers and try to encourage them to keep pushing the
envelope.
But it's very difficult.
And bureaucrats are very difficult.
If you look at the GCC countries, they're absolute monarchs.
And they can make decisions.
And you have a benevolent leader there who is very interested in pushing the envelope.
And hopefully that they will continue in this.
You know, there are two sides of this.
But, you know, if you look, you know, back to our conversation on, you know, mainstream media and things like that, they want to tell you that democracy is the God that we should all bow in front of.
And it's like, well, you're a hypocrite.
I mean, once again, I think you're a liar.
I don think democracy is the solution to this I lived in the UAE for eight years I lived in Abu Dhabi for eight years I can tell you I felt more free there than I did in Toronto
I think the good thing in the UAE as well is that there's a competitiveness between the families,
which is really useful when you think about it,
because otherwise they could just stop.
They'd stop in their tracks.
Dubai is already like one of the top cities in the world.
but they still want to make it better
because they're worried about what some or so over there's doing.
And I would argue that they are on a mission.
I believe that they don't need to do this.
Once again, they could ride off into the sunset.
They're certainly not doing it for the money.
They feel like they are on a mission.
That's a guess, but I would say it's probably pretty accurate.
And what mission do you reckon that is?
I don't know.
I would say it's better of a mission
than what we're seeing in Western democracies.
True. I mean, I've worked out there a lot. I used to go out there every year at least two or three times to Sharjah, actually. Sharjah next year.
I know Sharjah very well.
And my impression was that the Emiratis, especially the royal families, seemed to actually genuinely care for Emirati people. Do you know what I mean?
There was an affection. There was a lot of affection between Emiratis. And they're very much in the minority there.
is it it's hard to send to the population exactly 90 of the workforce are expats are for us
so and i mean it's the i think it's one of the best adverts for the monarchy that there is
currently for sure once you but what's your preferred uh kind of governance model then i'll
take it as a free private city no yes leave leave me alone that's uh that's my type of government
you know i don't uh i don't subscribe to any of these types of ideas well all i try to do is shine
in a light that there are alternatives and what we been led to believe on Western democracies it not true I mean they scum They absolute liars and sociopaths They don have your best interests at heart
And they want to point their finger at the Muslim world
and say that they're all horrible people.
And it's like, well, what about the UAE?
What about Oman?
What about a lot of the countries in the Islamic world
that are actually super peaceful
and are really innovating and doing interesting things there?
So it's like, I'm going to sound like a parrot here. I'm going to repeat myself. But go out there and see, see with your own eyes if what I'm saying is true or not.
So you're, but you're not an anarcho-capitalist then, are you?
I don't know what I am. I mean, I've been in this movement for 30 some odd years now. So I don't know. Am I an agorist? Am I an anarcho-capitalist? Am I a conservative? I'm a libertarian. I don't know what I am at this point.
Well, actually, what you are is someone just looking for a better life because...
I'm looking for protecting my family and serving my clients.
Mark Edge goes on about this a lot, talking about Morazan.
It's the most libertarian place with no libertarians in it.
That's basically...
And the reason is because it's better than Chaloma.
So people go from there to there.
That's all we're doing.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Well, it is.
It's true.
And what is libertarianism really?
You don't even need to put a name on it.
They don't know what libertarianism is.
They just know that life is better there.
For sure.
So, yeah, it's just, it's a movement.
So come on then, let's wrap up on a positive note.
You know, I'm black.
For me, the whole thing has been positive note.
You know, I am super happy.
I am super blessed.
I am super grateful for my clients and my family and everything that I have in my life.
I have been on a positive note this entire time.
I know, it's me.
That's what I'm saying.
But I'm just probably the scales then.
A curmudgeon We got a curmudgeon Give me some advice then come on then i you know you know you know do you know a bit about my situation family well embedded in the uk love the culture love the place
hate the government i'd be completely remiss to give you advice we are just started spending time
together we've just started to build a relationship together i'd be remiss to give you advice i guess
my only recommendation would be don't give up it's okay you're not alone you've got others that
around you, people who care about you, and we'll get through it together. It's going to be all right.
Amen to that. Amen to that. Thank you, Mikel. You're absolutely right. Thanks for coming in.
My pleasure.
I've very much enjoyed this. I will, hopefully, I'm planning to come to Central America
next year because there's so much going on there now. I want to see these places. I've been to
Prospera, but I've not been to Morazon. I've not been to Panama. I've not been to Costa Rica. None
of the Veritas villages locations, nothing. I really want to see him with my own eyes because
I, you know, I'm embedded in it, but it's still hard to know what the hell's going on there
without actually being there on the ground. Yeah. Come see us. We'd love to host you. We'd love to
show you around and it's going to be awesome. I will. Great. Many thanks and good luck.
Thank you very much. And if you guys want to learn more about what I do, if you want to follow the
podcast, you can go to expatmoneyshow.com. We put out a new podcast episode every single Wednesday
for the last decade. We have multiple newsletters, monthly webinars, quarterly tours and trips,
summits, conferences, huge amount of going on at expatmoney.com.
And drop down into the show notes for all those links. And yeah, thank you very much indeed.
Thanks, Tim.
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