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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 152 of the Free Cities podcast,

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brought to you by Veritas Villages, our wonderful sponsor.

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Veritas Villages are freedom-oriented, energy-self-sufficient communities in Latin America

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designed for people who want to enjoy peace of mind and real freedom in these uncertain times.

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you can live amongst like-minded neighbors in a community that uses bitcoin and you can buy your

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property with bitcoin as well don't you know www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities

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please use that link so that they know that we sent you if you're interested it's all in the

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show notes that you can just click on the link there and remember patrick who founded the company

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We'll be speaking at the Free Cities Conference in Prague in just a couple of weeks time.

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I hope you've got your ticket.

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I certainly have.

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If you haven't, www.freecitiesconference.com.

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There's also a guide to the city.

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If you look in the show notes, you don't want to miss the Free Cities Conference.

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I've queued up already nearly 20 interviews.

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I can't wait.

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I literally can't wait.

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almost certainly will have lost my voice. I'm going to be out in Prague for just over a week.

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Right, on to the show. It's an interview I recorded in Serbia recently. I'm losing my

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voice today. I've been doing some voiceovers. I'm not cut out with this, am I? And it's another

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delve into the government of Liberland. Yes, I spoke with the President Vitt a few weeks ago.

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This time I'm speaking with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Thomas D. Walls,

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is a US-based libertarian activist.

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It says here in his bio, he has a deep appreciation for Europe's languages, culture and history.

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He's held positions in the German Bundestag and at the US Embassy in Germany.

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A travel consultant and professional translator,

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Thomas co-founded the Republican Liberty Caucus and has worked with the US Libertarian Party.

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He's the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Liberland, helping shape Liberland's vision as a free and

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prosperous nation. Setting an example for the world, right, let's see what my AI agent made of

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our chat in this episode. Thomas DeWalls delves into Liberland's pursuit of peace, diplomacy and

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self-determination. Amid ongoing tensions with its neighbours, he shares insights into the delicate

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balance of building legitimacy while facing resistance, the growing international curiosity

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surrounding Liberland and the nation's efforts to expand its influence beyond borders through

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community innovation and libertarian ideals. From behind-the-scenes diplomacy to bold visions for

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the future, Thomas offers a candid look at the challenges and hopes driving one of the world's

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most unconventional political experiments. It's not bad. Yes, it is indeed a little insight into

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the way things run over there in the Liberland project. And for me, more interactions with

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Liberland for my deepening understanding of what's actually going on there. And it is deepening.

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I'm learning to love Liberland. Right. Before we go, quick advert for something I'm involved with.

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bit fest uk it's coming up 21st to the 23rd of november up in manchester up north in the uk

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five events over three days excuse me there's a nostra day you know what nostra is we talk about

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it all the time here there's a bitcoin day there's bit flicks which is the bitcoin film festival

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there's bitcoin art exhibition and a saturday night bash a concert party with djs etc

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brick coiners you're all out there almost everyone i know is going and if you're in this scene you

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probably should too and you can use this code for a discount free cities 10 will get you a 10%

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discount on your ticket which i think is pretty reasonably priced anyway so i will hopefully

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see you all there don't forget to subscribe to the podcast our podcast that is via fountain fm

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You get exclusive bonus episodes and early access to some episodes and shout outs.

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If you make comments and if subscribing is not your thing, well, you can just boost us

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a single episode or just a single thought or zap us on NOSDA or stream us on any value

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for value platform.

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Or guess what?

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If you're a massive baller and you really want to spread some love, there's a Bitcoin

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address in the show notes just get in there and do something crazy you know what to do anyway many

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thanks to everyone who supports us i am super appreciative and very very happy to work shoulder

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to shoulder with you all everyone our listeners our supporters and everyone that works in the

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freedom world i'm just happy to be here right let's go to the show you know what to do for the

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upteenth time just sit back relax and enjoy my conversation with Thomas Walls

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it's a good expression actually did was that yours yes go on then explain it diplomacy by

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example right of course Liberland in its philosophy is basically peace and cooperation

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so we want to lead by example instead of being presenting sort of a threatening or hostile

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entity we want to be seen and perceived and embraced as a community that's that's very

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peaceful and we want to work together with with our neighbors so but the diplomacy bit

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um yes because you're what's your title i forget your minister of foreign affairs minister of

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foreign affairs is that that's a particularly diplomacy heavy definitely right definitely

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and diplomacy is coming to agreement where there was none before and of course we have our

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disagreements with certain neighbors of ours and we seek to come to an agreement and understanding

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which allows us to flourish and will allow our neighbors to flourish too right that's a good one

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agreement because my like this is my second time now in around here um and i'm i'm building up an

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impression of what's happening here and i'm i'm i am definitely more on the skeptical side and i'm

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i you know and you probably know that but that's good i you know i i as i said to vit yesterday i'm

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happier that this is happening than not happening but would i would i take on your roles and do your

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jobs absolutely not I find it incredibly long term but agreement is a hugely important aspect

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of this whole thing and this is where I think one of the places I get stuck because when I look at

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Croatia and I think what's in it for them like what makes what makes Liberland move past this

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spot you're at at the moment which is kind of like what it looks like to me anyway is the incentive

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for either party, let's say there's three parties, there's you, Serbia, and Croatia,

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the incentive to do anything, apart from yours, doesn't really exist. So how do you come to some

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kind of agreement? Well, we need to demonstrate that we're ready to, for example, make significant

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investments in the region. And there's been some talk of that. And luckily, there's been some,

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I don't want to say breakthroughs, but there's been some positive signals from the other side,

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from certain individuals on the other side and certain institutions that they might be willing

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to work with us if we can offer something tangible, something concrete. And there is some

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dialogue going on that I'm not directly involved with, but I do have some open channels to some of

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the individuals involved and I cautiously optimistic about moving forward in a positive fashion with the other side That does sound very diplomatic the way you just said it It sounds like you said that before Thomas No no no

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There's been some interesting developments since we last spoke, Tim.

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And, you know, we've got some individuals working on our behalf,

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speaking to organizations and entities and individuals on the other side

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to sort of an olive branch, sort of a peace offering,

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and seeing how we can work together.

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And there's been some positive signals back from them.

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So I really hope that we can move forward.

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But would you say your major hurdle is Croatia?

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Yeah.

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So I'm right there.

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It's both on a couple different levels.

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On the local level, there's some opposition from the law enforcement

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and some of the groups that have used that area and exploited that area,

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and our presence has disrupted their exploitation of that area a little bit.

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So we understand that there's some resentment there.

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Also on the national level, there's some institutions that, you know,

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are these guys a threat? What do we do?

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I think it's sort of maybe I mentioned this last time.

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And there's sort of, you know how a reptile thinks or a lizard thinks, is this a threat or can I eat it?

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You know, what is it?

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I think we've been approached in that manner, not really analyzing who we are or what we want.

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But, you know, is this a threat to our national security?

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And, you know, we must treat it as a threat because we can't eat it.

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So, I mean, really, from my perspective, at least, you are a threat in the sense that whatever you do, you're taking land away from somebody.

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Because the situation is beautifully paradoxical.

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We know that.

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that they can't croatia can't be seen to necessarily own liver land because by conceding

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that they by default then lose another tract of land but either way they lose land right

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because serbia presumably wouldn't budge on that serbia is more invested in keeping the large

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pocket of land because number one it's literally on their side of the river now but also it's a

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bigger piece of land so so so i would say and you know this is my relatively i mean i haven't

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dived too deeply into it not nothing like you guys but that does seem like if i was to weigh

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up the incentives and look at it i would say that you're a threat obviously i suppose the

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counter argument is you're not if you become a very vibrant community and you bring wealth into

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the region and blah blah but still in a way it's not croatia getting that it's just getting a

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neighbor that they don't really know yeah uh i can see that perspective and croatia's position

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as far as i understand it and i try to understand it is that the land will be

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awarded to one side or the other in a future state of affairs

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our position is that since it's never been part of croatia how could they ever have a even a future

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claim on it that's a big if and our position differs from theirs and we feel that since the

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land had been abandoned for over 25 years that and they hadn't claimed it it's it's not theirs

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to claim basically so we're not really taking it from them as it stands now or in the past

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um they their position is that in some future arrangement they might get it so therefore we

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have no claim um i i disagree with that hold a minute let me get this straight i thought

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so the reason that they are showing an interest in it now is because the new border which is the

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river has put liberland on their side is that right okay right so so in that direction it's

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not their side in the sense that they own everything on that side, but it's closer to

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Croatia, of course. Now, I'll point out, maybe I talked about this a little bit last time, but

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after the war between Serbia and Croatia in the 90s, the UN occupied the former ethnic Serb areas

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over there, the Serbian Krajina, and that was eventually integrated into Croatia. The majority

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of the population was Serbian. However, during the war that was contested and the Erdut

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Agreement established basically the end of the war. It said, okay, these areas in the

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Krajina will become, will become in the future, part of Croatia. And they did. After two years

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of occupation by the UN, those lands of the Serbian Krajina were integrated into Croatia.

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and that did not include Gornaciga or Liberland.

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And that was specifically excluded on the maps

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and all the documents that Croatia filed with the United Nations.

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It wasn't on any of those maps.

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So maybe that was their first mistake.

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They didn't claim it at the time.

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If they intended to incorporate it at some point in the future,

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that would have been the time to do it.

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However, that was not done.

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It was viewed as Serbia.

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and you know it was not part of the Kraina either during those few short years where the Serbian

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Kraina was a self-proclaimed state it didn't include Liberland either that was still considered

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okay this is Serbian map it's part of Serbia but you know as time went on Serbia just didn't do

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anything with it they you know it was abandoned effectively so okay i mean so where do you think

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where do you think it's going then that side of things the diplomatic side because like i say

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i think the salute i think there's i personally think there's kind of like two two outcomes

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which are good for liberland one is just a an amazing diplomatic relationship with croatia where

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they suddenly understand you and take you seriously and say yes and the other one is is a

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complete change of everything some kind of crazy sort of socio-economic incident in europe or

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something which means that it's much more expensive to police what you're doing and then by default it

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kind of happens and i actually think the the the diplomatic one it would probably i don't know

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You might have an opinion on this.

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It would probably involve a sort of Millet-type character,

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like Argentina's, you know, who would just come in,

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which it doesn't seem like there's many of those characters in Europe,

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unfortunately, but would come in and say,

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right, we're going to, excuse my language, fuck shit up here.

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And then suddenly, yeah, let them have it.

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Come on, we're into liberty now.

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Yeah, we'll have a special arrangement,

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and they can have their free markets and things like that,

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and we'll make money off of it.

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And that would actually be not a bad arrangement.

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And it might take a Malay-type character to do that.

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I was just talking the other day with someone here at LiberPulco

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that it might take something like that.

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It might seem from the outside seen as crazy or unprecedented,

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but that's the way it could happen.

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Yeah, the two outcomes that you propose are pretty interesting.

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I think there's three or four possible outcomes.

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one outcome

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Croatia would win their

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argument, their claim and then

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Liberland would not, definitely

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not be part of Croatia

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but they would

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obtain or re-obtain

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all those lands, those pockets

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those several pockets on

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this side of the river

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which is a considerable amount of land

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how they would manage

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that I don't know, they normally don't

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come over here to patrol things

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but Serbia kind of deferentially treats it as Croatian territory for example planes don't fly

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over that airspace when they're flying in Serbia they go around those pockets because it's considered

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Croatian airspace so in some senses it is treated as Croatian territory Croatia says Liberland is

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Serbia but yeah they they act like they own it and Serbians who tried to go to Liberland are

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treated even worse than your average non-Schengen, non-EU person like you or me.

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And it's very interesting, the Danube Convention, signed in 1947 by several parties who basically

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states along the Danube River, there are certain provisions in there that you cannot obstruct

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any kind of traffic going across the Danube from one country to the same country.

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If they consider it Serbia they shouldn obstruct boat traffic coming from this side over to there which they officially state is Serbia

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And just on the recent geodetic agency issued maps and they reaffirmed the borders in eastern

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Croatia on the Danube River that Gornyo Siga is not part of Croatia.

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So everything they say and have on paper, it's outside of Croatia.

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And you need to change the constitution to change the borders.

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Or you need an act of parliament to change the borders, according to the constitution.

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And the constitution also says, Croatian constitution, it also says,

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Croatian forces cannot cross their border into another country

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unless act of parliament and order of the president.

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or if they're participating in some NATO maneuver,

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then they can participate in some exercise that's beyond their borders.

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But they can't have forces there, according to the ruined constitution.

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That would need an act of parliament and order of the president.

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So I don't know what they're doing.

218
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:54,960
Yes, they have the right and the duty to protect their borders.

219
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:56,820
Yes, and we agree with that.

220
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,300
And they should protect their borders.

221
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,440
But we're outside of their border.

222
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,520
They're treating the whole zone as their border, which is kind of weird.

223
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:10,760
What's the difference between you claiming Liberland and them claiming Liberland?

224
00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:16,980
Them claiming Liberland, again, they would lose their claim on this side of the river, all those pockets.

225
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:23,680
Us claiming it, you know, we're just outside of Croatia and we're our own jurisdiction.

226
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:37,820
I think there is a fear that things might descend into anarchy or chaos if there's no overwhelming monopoly of force there.

227
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:46,380
And they're imposing a monopoly of force just to prevent a bunch of migrants coming over or chaos from raining.

228
00:20:46,380 --> 00:20:53,560
And I think by making it so hard for us, they kind of fulfill their own claim.

229
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,900
Like, well, these Liberlanders, they can't run their own affairs, you know.

230
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:58,140
Well, they don't let us.

231
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,420
They don't let us establish strong community infrastructure.

232
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,120
And they don't let us bring, you know, things in to build.

233
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:15,380
I mean, we can bring small amounts of things in to build a treehouse or a beach bar or very small structures.

234
00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:24,740
but we can't bring in things to establish like a regular infrastructure that you would expect in any community

235
00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:31,920
and to build those institutions like security and justice and health and things like that.

236
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,760
We were building a medical center on Jefferson Square, and we had the foundation there,

237
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,520
and we were building up the walls, and we had plans for a medical center on that very spot.

238
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:48,080
but they brought a backhoe in and collapsed the walls and filled in the basement too which we had

239
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:54,280
been working on which still existed was part of an older i went there yeah yeah i saw it after it

240
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,320
was demolished but then it was demolished again after that wasn't it they went in even harder

241
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:05,360
yeah yeah and that was going to be part of our infrastructure you know both uh sort of uh

242
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:10,880
government house and a medical that what what i thought about that though that did show that

243
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:16,080
someone was using it because it was a hunting lodge right so someone owns some someone thinks

244
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,960
they kind of own it if you see what i mean yeah the title to that particular piece of land was was

245
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:28,480
serbian at one time it was a serbian hunting club used that particular lodge you know called the

246
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:35,720
lavachki dom lavachki is hunting or adjective meaning of hunting dom is house or you know

247
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:42,620
structural structure. So yeah, that was definitely, it was on the Serbian cadastral maps

248
00:22:42,620 --> 00:22:47,600
for the longest time. The thing, I mean, the thing about all this, though, is,

249
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:54,940
and I appreciate that coming at it from a kind of legal standpoint and precedent and this is

250
00:22:54,940 --> 00:23:01,120
correct. But really, at the moment, the rules don't matter, do they? Right. But really,

251
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:08,840
because no no one's kind of enforcing anything and and i this is the bit where i get stuck

252
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:16,300
because i don't see how that changes because it if you try and change that and start enforcing

253
00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:22,260
things the whole thing comes a hell of a lot more complicated and in a way it suits everyone at the

254
00:23:22,260 --> 00:23:26,540
moment apart from yourselves but you're the incumbent so you've got you're the ones that

255
00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:31,160
kind of got to prove yourself in a way it's like you know what I mean that's

256
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,160
where I get stuck how does that how does that change because you've got you could

257
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,000
prove everything on paper but really if no one's enforcing any of these rules it

258
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,060
might change in a couple of ways it might change by sheer numbers we did have

259
00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:50,840
200 people visit at one time almost 200 and they've just walked right in without

260
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:57,800
too much without any resistance from from their side you know I'm just trying

261
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,880
to think in it you know theoretical scenario where if we had the numbers we

262
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,540
could just march right in and occupy it and they couldn't do anything about it

263
00:24:05,540 --> 00:24:10,360
right now with smaller numbers of people when you have you know 6 to 12 to 18

264
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:15,740
people going there yes they can put up enough resources to make things a little

265
00:24:15,740 --> 00:24:20,140
more difficult for us in the last few months though things have been from what

266
00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:25,600
I've been told from the settlers directly the you know police have been okay they

267
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:34,060
haven't been too they haven't given us too much harassment too much trouble

268
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:38,380
they just you know come say hello check your documents and then they leave I

269
00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:43,520
was wondering whether that wasn't just because it's summer it told me that he

270
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,320
said it's been good for the last three months I thought when it that's summer

271
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,960
no one wants any hassle during summer

272
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,760
they just want to sunbathe

273
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,220
even the police

274
00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:53,780
and winter too

275
00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:54,160
I mean

276
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,800
who wants to stand out

277
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,580
or stand around

278
00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:57,360
in you know

279
00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:58,240
freezing conditions

280
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,960
and you know

281
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:00,800
and then some of the

282
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,360
officers have expressed

283
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:03,720
like we don't want to be here

284
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,280
we don't care to be here

285
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,160
but like I say

286
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,660
they are there

287
00:25:10,660 --> 00:25:13,700
and I suppose

288
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:16,220
the new sort of idea

289
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:20,480
that I've sort of been introduced to on this trip here

290
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,200
is that you're working on your kind of,

291
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:29,700
it's a bit like the network state theory of community.

292
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,460
You know, you're working on your brand.

293
00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:36,300
Liberland is not just a group of people living here

294
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:38,560
or living over on Cornishiga.

295
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,040
It's actually a big group, a global sort of gathering of people.

296
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,860
and I and I didn't understand that before but I can see that is actually a pretty good tactic

297
00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:56,720
going forwards because um the more people who associate with the brand of Liberland

298
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:03,860
the more powerful it becomes I suppose is that is that true that is definitely true um you know

299
00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:09,860
a lot of people know about us but the majority of people still don't don't know about us the more

300
00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:14,860
people we get on board on our side and from a global perspective the better it will be

301
00:26:14,860 --> 00:26:20,660
and the other the more we can enlist other countries to support us then of course you

302
00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:26,360
know Croatia might you know think think again about oh well gee if we treat these guys nicely

303
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:33,720
then we'll be the good guy so I you know we've we've been had dialogues with a number of other

304
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:40,200
countries, good dialogues as well. And actually since our last talk we've had,

305
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:46,900
we've sent a few delegations to a few different countries and we've signed one

306
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:51,060
agreement, we've got other agreements that the drafts have been approved so we

307
00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:53,960
may have some agreements with other countries as well.

308
00:26:53,960 --> 00:27:04,860
But the brand of Liberland is getting bigger, right?

309
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:05,580
Oh, yeah.

310
00:27:05,620 --> 00:27:06,000
It is.

311
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,340
Do many people know about it in the States?

312
00:27:09,620 --> 00:27:11,860
You live in the States as well as here, right?

313
00:27:11,860 --> 00:27:17,400
About 20,000 applicants for Liberland citizenship from the United States in our database.

314
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:19,600
And quite a few citizens.

315
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:25,260
I'd say the U.S. is a big chunk of our real supporters.

316
00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:27,980
So we have a pretty good organization there too.

317
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:32,440
And how does that follow through when you look at people who show an interest

318
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:39,000
and people who actually turn up here or even come to Liverpool, where we are now, this kind of stuff?

319
00:27:39,380 --> 00:27:41,320
Oh, it's great. People find this very interesting,

320
00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:46,020
especially people who are on the libertarian or free market conservative side of things.

321
00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:53,520
The one catch is that, as you well know, if you're not a Schengen or EU citizen,

322
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,020
it's a little more difficult to visit Liberland because of how the police treat people

323
00:27:58,020 --> 00:28:00,860
from who are not EU or Schengen citizens.

324
00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:15,320
So you know a lot of Americans whom I meet are interested in acquiring land in Liberland But how can they do that if they only If they jump through the hoops they can get seven days but then they have to leave

325
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,320
So that's a little bit of a...

326
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,160
I mean, I didn't know that.

327
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:25,160
What's the problem? You get a short visa for Croatia?

328
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,760
Well, not really a visa.

329
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,020
It's that anyone who's not from the European Union or a Schengen's own country

330
00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:35,240
if you try to go to Liberland

331
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,560
they'll give you a quick trip to the police station

332
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,600
and issue papers that you have to leave Croatia

333
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,060
yeah on what grounds is that

334
00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:43,360
because in my case

335
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,300
they got me on a technicality

336
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:49,780
which was the lady who we rented the Airbnb of

337
00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:51,320
didn't register us

338
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,780
with the police

339
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:54,320
which is true

340
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,920
but apparently no one does it

341
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,100
or whatever

342
00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:58,980
either way

343
00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:00,060
it's selectively enforced

344
00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:01,180
it's selectively enforced

345
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:02,720
and it was definitely enforced on me.

346
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,620
I was given seven days to leave, which didn't really matter.

347
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,520
But I wasn't aware that there was a...

348
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,840
I thought that was a good reason.

349
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:12,160
I mean, they did have me.

350
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,340
I had to put my hands up and say, yep, true.

351
00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:17,880
With other people, they've given them papers that say,

352
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,080
well, you did not state your reasons for entering Croatia correctly.

353
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,540
We suspect that you're going to start illegal fires in the forest

354
00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:29,560
or you're going to go camping illegally.

355
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:30,840
And it says that on the paper.

356
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,960
So we're going to refuse your entry into Croatia.

357
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,660
You have seven days to leave.

358
00:29:35,780 --> 00:29:38,180
You are not to enter for another 90 days.

359
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:43,200
So they falsely accused them of wanting to start fires or going.

360
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,000
And how can they enforce that, though?

361
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,740
How do they like how do they know you're about to start a fire?

362
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:52,140
You can't predict that unless they've got some matches on them.

363
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:52,860
It's absurd.

364
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:53,900
It's absurd.

365
00:29:54,380 --> 00:29:55,340
And does it work?

366
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,620
Has anyone stayed more than seven days and seen what happens?

367
00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,800
I don't know.

368
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,940
I think some people wanted to, but I don't know what happened.

369
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:06,360
Because in my case, I could have stayed for another three months.

370
00:30:06,460 --> 00:30:07,340
They didn't know.

371
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,840
Obviously, after seven days, it would have been good that I didn't run into the same police again.

372
00:30:14,420 --> 00:30:14,540
Right.

373
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:20,140
But the truth was that there's no border on the rest of Croatia.

374
00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:23,340
I mean, getting into Serbia, you actually have to go over a border,

375
00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:27,680
but the rest of it, you can go as far west as you want, really.

376
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:36,580
Those technicalities are a tool they use to, you know, eject people who want to visit Liberland and kind of discourage them.

377
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:40,720
So it's one of the tools that the border police uses on people.

378
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,580
We feel this is totally wrong, and we're challenging a lot of those expulsions.

379
00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:53,420
You know, I think we've got our hands full when it comes to legal cases.

380
00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:58,540
There's like, I think, over 90 or 100 legal cases that we've won quite a few of.

381
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:07,560
We've won them on the basis that, okay, they ticketed somebody for building a structure without a permit or camping or whatever.

382
00:31:07,740 --> 00:31:08,860
And they were thrown out of court.

383
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,480
They should be because you don't need a – it's not Gratian land.

384
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:13,360
There's no jurisdiction.

385
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,220
Yeah, there's no permit.

386
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:22,760
And we counter – well, we tried to file suit against the SHUMA, which is the forest authority who destroyed our buildings and took a lot of our stuff.

387
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:28,480
and the court in Osiek over there said, well, we have no jurisdiction here.

388
00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:29,160
We can't help you.

389
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,420
And we don't have any information to give it to a foreign court,

390
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:40,220
because sometimes cases would have to be remanded to another court somewhere else.

391
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:46,460
And they said, sorry, we can't process this case because it's not within our jurisdiction.

392
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:51,480
That's when we tried to bring legal action against their authorities.

393
00:31:52,760 --> 00:32:12,160
So, okay. So that's the, like I say, I keep, I will always keep coming back to this. How does it move forward? Like, how does, how does this thing budge from, from where, from where you are at the moment? And I know things are happening, small things.

394
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,740
But we reach decision makers on that side.

395
00:32:15,860 --> 00:32:17,460
We convince them this is a good thing.

396
00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:20,320
We convince them they can benefit from this,

397
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,120
and Croatians can benefit from this,

398
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,840
and we can bring jobs and investment and a lot of tourists.

399
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:28,500
And it can be orderly.

400
00:32:28,660 --> 00:32:31,500
It can be a great thing.

401
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,480
It can be like the coast, and the coast has tons of tourists.

402
00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,340
Why don't we make this region into something like that,

403
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,380
something where people are actually interested in coming

404
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:47,240
and checking things out, going to a local winery, taking a biking tour, maybe going fishing,

405
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,300
stuff like that. It can be a totally positive thing. And I know they want to do that.

406
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,440
I checked out the Croatian Tourist Board's attempts at marketing this region. Yes,

407
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:05,800
they try to market the region, but they could have a real unique selling point if they included us

408
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,280
as part of the whole package.

409
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,060
And that's a very unique selling point.

410
00:33:12,140 --> 00:33:14,980
I think maybe they'd be interested in it

411
00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:18,100
as a jurisdiction of Croatia, probably.

412
00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:20,860
I'm pretty sure you don't want to go that direction, right?

413
00:33:22,540 --> 00:33:25,200
That wouldn't be in the spirit of Liberland,

414
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,700
the autonomous place, you know, free republic.

415
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:34,160
I could foresee an alternative where we were a special zone,

416
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,780
a special autonomous zone that we you know we have our own laws and ways of running things but

417
00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:46,360
it's within like for example the the croatian defense perimeter that that would require act

418
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:52,080
of congress and or act of their parliament etc but that would be an interesting scenario and

419
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,740
they're not prepared to do that i don't think uh any more than they're prepared to incorporate

420
00:33:57,740 --> 00:34:02,940
gorn josega into croatia that's that's a long way off well i'm just thinking about it then

421
00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:12,160
if the issue was um not wanting cornicea because it it means they lose the other land

422
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:19,160
if it was a if it was a special zone it would actually become a very valuable piece of land

423
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:24,960
actually it would be better to have that than it would be to have the the disputed land on the

424
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,420
other side probably even though it's more in surface value it's like if you could choose to

425
00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:36,380
have Hong Kong or you take it. It's a small area but it's a very you know and

426
00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:41,100
you know I never thought of that before but so you said no one's ever been shown

427
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:45,200
any interest in in that angle before. Not that I know of. I mean that's

428
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,780
something you know that could come up for discussion in the future. I think the

429
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:55,980
dispute, the larger dispute, it seems to be interminable. I don't know they've they

430
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:59,940
do have a committee that's supposed to discuss these issues I think they

431
00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:06,600
convened maybe once or twice in the past 20 years and you know it's one of those

432
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,740
blue ribbon commissions that you know proposes to do something or promises to

433
00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:15,180
solve a problem but they never do and they haven't done so and they haven't

434
00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:22,420
made any plans to do so so okay special zone not gonna happen fair enough I mean

435
00:35:22,420 --> 00:35:23,080
It could happen.

436
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,800
I mean, even before a dispute is resolved, it could happen.

437
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:34,440
And then the ultimate fate of that land would, okay, well, do we incorporate it in Serbia?

438
00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:35,760
Do we incorporate it in Croatia?

439
00:35:36,020 --> 00:35:37,520
This is its own little thing.

440
00:35:38,260 --> 00:35:42,580
We do have some other more than thought experiments.

441
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:45,960
You know, we could get it declared a river island.

442
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,180
because technically Siga was a large island.

443
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Then a canal was cut down in the middle of it, and that became the Danube.

444
00:35:55,740 --> 00:35:59,600
And there's still a canal on the western side of Liberland.

445
00:35:59,780 --> 00:36:04,560
So in one sense, it's still an island, and sometimes people refer to it as an island.

446
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:09,780
There is a small land bridge that goes over to Croatia in the northern part,

447
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:14,000
but we could get it declared a river island and get a special status.

448
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:15,460
That's been done.

449
00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:24,060
There's an island in Slovakia, I think, on the Danube, as well as between Romania and Bulgaria.

450
00:36:24,060 --> 00:36:25,260
There's a river island.

451
00:36:25,660 --> 00:36:29,840
There's a website that lists all the Danube river islands.

452
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:37,560
And it's actually an actual organization for the purpose of protecting them and giving them a special status.

453
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,060
But what is that special status?

454
00:36:39,580 --> 00:36:41,320
I mean, does it give any kind of autonomy?

455
00:36:42,220 --> 00:36:43,400
That's a good question.

456
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,880
That's why we're looking into it.

457
00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:50,040
And I think we've got some people and some organizations that we're going to,

458
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,140
we've already taken up some dialogue with to see what options we have.

459
00:36:54,900 --> 00:37:00,300
I saw in your presentation yesterday, you went to Ron Paul's 90th birthday party.

460
00:37:00,460 --> 00:37:00,780
Oh, yeah.

461
00:37:01,380 --> 00:37:02,140
How was that?

462
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:03,000
Amazing.

463
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,140
Sorry for the complete right angle conversation, Neil.

464
00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:10,660
Well, he's our most famous citizen.

465
00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:12,100
Is he a citizen?

466
00:37:12,180 --> 00:37:12,800
Yes, he is.

467
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,820
We gave him a passport a couple of years ago.

468
00:37:14,820 --> 00:37:15,820
Did he ask one?

469
00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:18,820
Well, we just gave it to him.

470
00:37:18,820 --> 00:37:19,820
He's an honorary member.

471
00:37:19,820 --> 00:37:22,820
You know, we had to get his details and everything beforehand.

472
00:37:22,820 --> 00:37:24,820
So it was already, you know, agreed upon.

473
00:37:24,820 --> 00:37:26,820
And it was amazing.

474
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:28,820
It was over a thousand people there.

475
00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:29,940
It was in Lake Jackson.

476
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,740
Texas, where Ron Paul lives and has his office and does his show from.

477
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,620
And we also presented him with the First Class Order of Merit, which is Liberland's highest

478
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:43,680
national award.

479
00:37:44,860 --> 00:37:49,000
That would have been impossible to do at the event itself because of all the people.

480
00:37:51,260 --> 00:37:55,940
And, you know, we didn't get to speak to him at the event, but we made an appointment to

481
00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:56,820
go see him on Monday.

482
00:37:56,820 --> 00:38:01,180
So we had a private meeting with Ron Paul on Monday following the birthday event.

483
00:38:02,460 --> 00:38:10,760
Daniel McAdams, who is the co-host of the Liberty Report and also the director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity,

484
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,540
he said, OK, well, we want to give the award to Dr. Paul.

485
00:38:16,660 --> 00:38:21,800
So come to the office on Monday before you fly out and we can give him the award.

486
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,220
We can spend some time together.

487
00:38:23,220 --> 00:38:28,840
and we got to sit in on a taping of the Ron Paul Liberty Report on that Monday.

488
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:36,920
Has he mentioned Liberland at all in any kind of sense, meaningful sense?

489
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Sure. Well, he addressed our events, our anniversary events twice,

490
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,800
our fifth anniversary and our tenth anniversary.

491
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,860
And he's been very generous with his time towards us.

492
00:38:48,860 --> 00:38:54,880
and you know you might have seen we published a deck of playing cards with different characters

493
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,960
and figures and on the playing cards and Ron Paul is the ace of spades in a playing card deck and I

494
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:07,840
was able to give that to him as well in addition to the award and a pin and they mentioned this on

495
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,920
the show on the day we visited and it's been great we've also met with his son Senator Rand Paul

496
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:20,120
a few times and he had heard about us and his staff are big fans of ours as well what's your

497
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:28,480
take on the current i mean ron paul's 90 and he i would say he's probably one of the most

498
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:34,180
influential libertarians of all time possibly and well certainly of the modern age let's say

499
00:39:34,180 --> 00:39:40,260
and when when you mentioned ron paul most people know him and when you mention ron paul as well

500
00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:45,680
especially in America, a lot of people were turned on to libertarianism by him.

501
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,120
When he goes, who are the main players?

502
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,380
Because there are, all right, there's Rand, but it's not,

503
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,040
Ron Paul's a real, Ron Paul's the brand of libertarianism, isn't he?

504
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,620
So who's coming through?

505
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,080
As far as politics go?

506
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,200
Or even popular culture.

507
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:10,280
I mean, you know, I'm not sure libertarianism and politics go together very well.

508
00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:11,880
I think there's an oxymoron.

509
00:40:12,060 --> 00:40:17,140
Whenever I see libertarians doing stuff, the last thing they want to do is be political.

510
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,320
It's the opposite.

511
00:40:18,460 --> 00:40:22,320
It's almost like they would campaign on leaving us, leave us alone.

512
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,660
That's not a good campaign, really, when you think about it.

513
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:26,520
It's like live and let live.

514
00:40:26,620 --> 00:40:31,200
It's like, well, how do you, you know, but is that a political?

515
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,000
Is that a program?

516
00:40:32,060 --> 00:40:32,260
Yeah.

517
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,380
Is that a program that you can build on?

518
00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:34,960
Well, maybe.

519
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,660
In politics, I'd say Thomas Massey, who's in the Congress.

520
00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:42,880
We've met with him as well in his office.

521
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:44,040
He's a great guy.

522
00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:47,360
There's Justin Amash, who's currently not in Congress.

523
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:49,180
He's very well-spoken.

524
00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:52,820
He was also at Ron Paul's birthday event.

525
00:40:55,060 --> 00:40:58,320
There's a few others in politics who are up and coming.

526
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:05,200
As far as popular culture and generally, I think maybe Elon Musk is a little libertarian.

527
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:11,320
not not 100 but you know who cares i think he's pushing for a lot of things that are good

528
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:18,280
some people might not might be critical of him in some aspects which is fine and so am i but uh i

529
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:25,920
think you know he's articulated a lot of pro-liberty things um he certainly did with doge

530
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:33,340
unfortunately it didn't work i mean you know the this the solution that no one ever dares talk

531
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:38,460
about in politics is the government needs to be smaller i don't think i know many people in my in

532
00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:46,820
the uk the us who do actually campaign on that um and i'm not even sure people general the general

533
00:41:46,820 --> 00:41:53,420
population understands that that's a great solution to so many of the problems you can't

534
00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:58,580
currently see in the world is make the government smaller and obviously elon thought that and and it

535
00:41:58,580 --> 00:42:04,320
was quite exciting watching it from, albeit from Europe where we were, like watching it all happen,

536
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,620
but then nothing happened and actually the government's bigger now. And, you know, a funny

537
00:42:08,620 --> 00:42:15,680
thing about that is that the press and the left in general, the establishment left, not the, you

538
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:22,520
know, more anti-war left who are usually pretty good sometimes, they think it's still going on,

539
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:28,400
even though Doge has been pretty much shut down, they still think that's what Trump is doing.

540
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:31,300
They still think his administration is cutting, cutting, cutting.

541
00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:33,860
And that's what they run with.

542
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:36,640
But it's increasing.

543
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:43,880
It's just like under Reagan, Ronald Reagan, the myth was that he was cutting government spending.

544
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,100
He never cut any – he increased it by quite a significant amount.

545
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:50,700
I don't think it's possible, though.

546
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:56,240
if you look at the incentive model of the current system it's actually not possible to

547
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:02,640
make it smaller without losing votes i mean democracy unfortunately works that way it's

548
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:09,240
a process of buying votes off people and the if you decide to make government smaller which would

549
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:15,620
be a good way to sort of change the amount of spending that you you do you basically cause

550
00:43:15,620 --> 00:43:23,300
problems for the people that vote for you. So they won't vote for you. And then as a result,

551
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:29,100
you lose power. And the point of democracy is to stay in power. It's not actually to...

552
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:35,600
And the major parties funnel funds and taxpayer money to their special interests, whether it's,

553
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:42,120
you know, defense industry, or the medical industry, or any special interest you want to

554
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:48,020
name, they get largesse or welfare from the federal government. The banks are, of course,

555
00:43:48,620 --> 00:43:55,320
got everybody in their pocket. So one example that's great in the Trump administration is Tulsi

556
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,380
Gabbard. She's the head director of national intelligence. She was also at Ron Paul's 90th

557
00:43:59,380 --> 00:44:06,060
birthday, by the way, and she has cut her department, the directorate, the office of the

558
00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:11,520
directorate of national intelligence, ODNI. She's cut the staff and the budget by 40 percent.

559
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:20,400
And that was a huge office in Virginia that was created after 9-11, the 9-11 attacks.

560
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:26,380
And it was basically, it's in charge of all the intelligence, the 16 or more.

561
00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:30,520
We don't know about the two or three that are black operations.

562
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,600
But anyway, they're in charge of all the intelligence agencies, CIA, NSA, etc.

563
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:40,180
She cut her budget by 40%.

564
00:44:40,180 --> 00:44:41,360
I didn't know that.

565
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:47,240
It sounds like a bit of a band-aid on a very large wound.

566
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:55,960
It's a band-aid, but since that agency was so large, that office was so large, that's several hundred million dollars that we're saving from that.

567
00:44:56,780 --> 00:44:57,860
So that's optimistic.

568
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,920
I mean, in other departments, I think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has some interesting ideas.

569
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:10,220
Other departments, I think it's probably going to be business as usual, unfortunately.

570
00:45:10,220 --> 00:45:30,000
I don't think it can't. That's the point. You can't remove money, especially welfare, without losing your position as the power. I just think it's too late now. It's a bit like the gun debate in America. It's like, you can't take guns away now. It's too late.

571
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,700
Right. That horse has left the barn.

572
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:37,400
Yeah. But so has the democratic horse left the barn long time ago.

573
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,540
And it's, it's a, it's a welfare system voted for.

574
00:45:43,220 --> 00:45:59,132
And so you buying votes basically because the more people that realize you know I can get something the more they get basically bought with their votes and there more promised the more they promised the more they the government needs to find that

575
00:45:59,132 --> 00:46:04,652
money which obviously it doesn't produce anything so it either takes it from you or you actually

576
00:46:04,652 --> 00:46:12,172
yeah not me yes i still pay taxes yeah or or it it borrows or it borrows but it's getting people

577
00:46:12,172 --> 00:46:16,572
are losing faith even in lending money to governments currently by the looks of things

578
00:46:16,572 --> 00:46:20,972
Yeah, yeah. Usually people buy government bonds and that helps them finance things.

579
00:46:20,972 --> 00:46:23,672
And, you know, of course, you know, they've been downgraded, of course.

580
00:46:23,672 --> 00:46:30,232
Have you got a view on a potential future going forward, like, you know, 50 years time?

581
00:46:30,292 --> 00:46:33,412
A lot of people say there's going to be a catastrophic crash.

582
00:46:33,512 --> 00:46:36,592
A lot of people say it's just going to kick the can down the street forever.

583
00:46:37,032 --> 00:46:38,272
You know, what's your opinion?

584
00:46:38,272 --> 00:46:43,452
There are always going to be ups and downs, some more severe than others.

585
00:46:43,452 --> 00:46:53,952
Like in America, we had the housing crash because the government inflated the housing market by giving cheap, low-interest lending to banks to fund these projects that ultimately failed.

586
00:46:54,412 --> 00:47:05,172
They built condominiums that no one ever occupied, but they were bailed out by the government in the end because, you know, the government, federal government, insures deposits in the banks.

587
00:47:05,292 --> 00:47:10,672
And the banks said, oh, we've got, you know, we can get bailed out if we lose the money on a particular investment.

588
00:47:10,672 --> 00:47:11,532
So let's do it.

589
00:47:11,532 --> 00:47:16,692
We'll make some off of it and then close the books on it, and we'll be sitting pretty.

590
00:47:16,952 --> 00:47:23,312
And in the meantime, people lose their homes and it causes huge distortions in the market.

591
00:47:24,612 --> 00:47:30,352
That happened fairly recently, and there's probably going to be some more of that.

592
00:47:30,692 --> 00:47:36,892
I think maybe those in power have learned to not go too far with inflation and things like that.

593
00:47:36,892 --> 00:47:45,152
We'll give a little inflation, enough to pay off our cronies, but not enough to destroy the system or cause a major crisis.

594
00:47:46,092 --> 00:47:47,172
I don't know how.

595
00:47:47,692 --> 00:47:51,672
I think you're overestimating how much control they have over inflation.

596
00:47:52,592 --> 00:47:57,612
I know that modern Keynesian economists think that you can control those kind of things.

597
00:47:57,872 --> 00:48:03,952
But no one's ever been able to stop a fiat currency trending to zero.

598
00:48:03,952 --> 00:48:06,592
I mean, it always happens.

599
00:48:06,892 --> 00:48:08,332
There's not much you can do about that.

600
00:48:08,552 --> 00:48:10,732
Well, they can have influence, though.

601
00:48:10,932 --> 00:48:13,832
I mean, again, with, like, for example, the housing crisis,

602
00:48:14,052 --> 00:48:15,832
they created easy credit.

603
00:48:16,512 --> 00:48:20,792
And, of course, in that sector, real estate, of course,

604
00:48:20,852 --> 00:48:23,192
prices went up significantly.

605
00:48:23,192 --> 00:48:28,092
So you can have sectoral inflation,

606
00:48:28,492 --> 00:48:31,612
which is directly traceable to these actions.

607
00:48:32,492 --> 00:48:33,932
Maybe not as a whole.

608
00:48:33,932 --> 00:48:38,812
okay, our overall inflation rate is, you know, say 7% or something.

609
00:48:39,052 --> 00:48:44,112
Maybe a half a percent was added to by, you know,

610
00:48:44,192 --> 00:48:46,832
this inflation of credit, for example.

611
00:48:47,852 --> 00:48:48,752
I agree.

612
00:48:48,872 --> 00:48:50,492
That's an economist, you know, economist.

613
00:48:50,492 --> 00:48:54,512
But the point is that why are they giving cheap credit?

614
00:48:55,112 --> 00:48:57,392
That's a bad move even in itself.

615
00:48:58,712 --> 00:49:02,772
Their modus operandi is try and stimulate the market

616
00:49:02,772 --> 00:49:06,372
or try and sort of, you know, calm it down.

617
00:49:06,492 --> 00:49:09,352
It's a free gift to the banks, basically, the large banks.

618
00:49:09,412 --> 00:49:09,692
Sure.

619
00:49:09,832 --> 00:49:14,232
You know, how the Fed operates, it just, you know, gives easy,

620
00:49:14,592 --> 00:49:16,192
that's free money, basically.

621
00:49:16,512 --> 00:49:21,312
Low to no interest loans to banks or credit, that's free money.

622
00:49:21,572 --> 00:49:23,532
Yeah, I mean, it's literally free money.

623
00:49:23,532 --> 00:49:28,692
And it's also free money to the people who probably need it at least.

624
00:49:28,692 --> 00:49:34,332
and that's why i asked you whether you think that what where we're we're heading towards something

625
00:49:34,332 --> 00:49:45,452
quite dark because that is out of control now i think personally i think that that that system of

626
00:49:45,452 --> 00:49:52,212
um you know trying to manage the economy we've we've we've hit 0 interest rates

627
00:49:52,212 --> 00:49:57,132
recent in recent history you know is there comes a time where there's things you can't do

628
00:49:57,132 --> 00:49:59,312
You can't reduce rates too below.

629
00:49:59,432 --> 00:49:59,912
Well, you can.

630
00:49:59,992 --> 00:50:01,612
You can go to many negatives.

631
00:50:02,392 --> 00:50:05,872
But that's very symbolic of a really major problem.

632
00:50:07,212 --> 00:50:10,092
That's been the case especially in Europe and the UK, right?

633
00:50:10,352 --> 00:50:11,772
Yeah, we had negative interest rates.

634
00:50:11,872 --> 00:50:12,012
Yeah.

635
00:50:12,492 --> 00:50:20,192
I think one thing that would contribute to the crisis, economic crisis, and debt is war.

636
00:50:21,012 --> 00:50:22,312
You have to pay for war.

637
00:50:22,932 --> 00:50:26,012
And certain sectors make a lot of money off those wars.

638
00:50:26,012 --> 00:50:32,512
and you know we've got wars going on right now and taxpayers have to pay for it from all

639
00:50:32,512 --> 00:50:38,912
basically from all the major western democracies the u.s is paying for a lot of that uk as well

640
00:50:38,912 --> 00:50:44,832
eu they're throwing a lot of money into the ukraine war i take it if there was a catastrophic

641
00:50:44,832 --> 00:50:51,472
crash in the world economy you'd come out here if you could yeah it'll be nice that'll be nice

642
00:50:51,472 --> 00:50:53,912
Actually, we've got a farm here at the Ark.

643
00:50:54,072 --> 00:50:56,652
We're growing a lot of different vegetables.

644
00:50:57,212 --> 00:51:02,252
We've had a few white papers on making ourselves self-sufficient here.

645
00:51:02,252 --> 00:51:06,012
So if that were to happen, it might be an option.

646
00:51:06,132 --> 00:51:07,832
We probably have a little bit more work to do.

647
00:51:08,492 --> 00:51:10,332
But that would be enough.

648
00:51:10,332 --> 00:51:12,212
I haven't had a good look around here, actually.

649
00:51:12,392 --> 00:51:16,912
I've only ever really been in the very immediate vicinity of here.

650
00:51:17,032 --> 00:51:21,152
Just so that listeners understand, we're not in Liberland.

651
00:51:21,152 --> 00:51:27,112
We're on the other side of the river, about half a mile down the river or something, on the Serbian side.

652
00:51:27,712 --> 00:51:31,512
And this is also Liberland land, but it's not...

653
00:51:31,512 --> 00:51:32,652
It's part of Serbia.

654
00:51:33,112 --> 00:51:35,132
Yeah, but it's not Liberland land.

655
00:51:35,192 --> 00:51:39,072
Well, it's kind of Liberland land, I suppose, but it's not in any official way.

656
00:51:39,672 --> 00:51:40,012
It's like...

657
00:51:40,012 --> 00:51:41,592
We can fly a flag here and no one...

658
00:51:41,592 --> 00:51:43,052
Yeah, exactly. You can do what you want here.

659
00:51:43,232 --> 00:51:49,652
But actually, you know, one of those pockets that Croatia claims, it starts like right over there, like not too far from here.

660
00:51:49,652 --> 00:51:56,212
We're almost on the edge of that Croatian-claimed land, one of those pockets over here.

661
00:51:56,532 --> 00:51:57,112
So that's interesting.

662
00:51:57,132 --> 00:51:58,932
So where's the farm bit then?

663
00:51:59,272 --> 00:52:01,052
The farm is on the other side of the lake.

664
00:52:01,772 --> 00:52:03,732
So here's the lake out here.

665
00:52:04,772 --> 00:52:11,892
And over on the northwest corner, we have a few plots with vegetables growing.

666
00:52:12,012 --> 00:52:13,712
And there's sort of a greenhouse over there.

667
00:52:14,292 --> 00:52:17,612
Last winter, I think we had to close it up.

668
00:52:17,612 --> 00:52:22,892
but it's in full bloom and some of the food we're serving here is fresh tomatoes from our garden

669
00:52:22,892 --> 00:52:29,212
and other vegetables cucumbers what would i mean if it's an interesting thought experiment to

670
00:52:29,212 --> 00:52:38,012
imagine what happens if this place becomes very vibrant actually the ark like because

671
00:52:38,012 --> 00:52:42,812
this is an intentional community really what you want over there yeah we're actually expanding

672
00:52:42,812 --> 00:52:47,892
Arc 2, which is also the name of a kind of a weird 70s sci-fi series.

673
00:52:48,592 --> 00:52:50,352
Arc 2 is going to be over here.

674
00:52:50,432 --> 00:52:51,832
You can see the smokestack over here.

675
00:52:51,892 --> 00:52:54,052
It's got a Liberland flag flying off the top of it.

676
00:52:54,552 --> 00:52:56,692
We've acquired two more properties over here.

677
00:52:56,792 --> 00:52:58,692
We're going to build several more cabins.

678
00:52:59,272 --> 00:53:03,992
And I think we'll make that old pump house from which that smokestack emanates.

679
00:53:04,532 --> 00:53:07,992
We'll make that into a spa type area.

680
00:53:08,172 --> 00:53:11,212
But it's an interesting blurring of the lines, isn't it?

681
00:53:11,212 --> 00:53:14,252
I mean, it's just a thought experiment.

682
00:53:14,892 --> 00:53:19,692
Really, what you're trying to establish over there in what you call Liberland,

683
00:53:19,992 --> 00:53:23,312
you're creating here as an intentional community.

684
00:53:23,692 --> 00:53:27,912
It's just that you don't need to fight anyone here.

685
00:53:28,112 --> 00:53:28,332
Right.

686
00:53:28,492 --> 00:53:29,832
Because they just leave you alone.

687
00:53:30,052 --> 00:53:33,212
You're just people coming, buying some land and living on it.

688
00:53:34,552 --> 00:53:35,632
It's interesting.

689
00:53:35,632 --> 00:53:41,132
I mean, what would be very ironic if this became Liberland?

690
00:53:41,212 --> 00:53:46,072
you know and and and serbia just said yeah you can do whatever you want obviously

691
00:53:46,072 --> 00:53:51,392
it might it might not be that they would give you independence you never know though you never know

692
00:53:51,392 --> 00:53:57,012
you never know it could be it could be the the supreme irony could be that maybe one of those

693
00:53:57,012 --> 00:54:01,632
croatian pockets if it still remains in limbo maybe there's some land over there that we could

694
00:54:01,632 --> 00:54:07,892
make a deal with them and say okay i mean i mean an additional part of the theory of special economic

695
00:54:07,892 --> 00:54:22,944
zones and this they do benefit the host nation You know and if you saying well look we because what interesting about Liberland is your mindset is we want to be a country

696
00:54:23,904 --> 00:54:27,584
So, but that exists in your mind even when you're here, doesn't it?

697
00:54:27,604 --> 00:54:29,124
Even when you're in Serbia.

698
00:54:29,404 --> 00:54:29,504
Sure.

699
00:54:29,784 --> 00:54:33,404
It's not that you need to lay a flag in a piece of land over there that no one's claiming.

700
00:54:33,404 --> 00:54:42,404
The mindset is Liberland is a real place or is a nation, you know, in Allah, the kind of online nation.

701
00:54:43,324 --> 00:54:50,284
You are currently a nation, but you're a network state or a network nation or a network country.

702
00:54:51,404 --> 00:54:58,924
And that does give you a lot of interesting opportunities when you think about it.

703
00:54:58,924 --> 00:55:00,984
The more we can offer, the better.

704
00:55:01,364 --> 00:55:02,784
Like people can come here to ARK.

705
00:55:02,784 --> 00:55:07,664
It's not Liberland itself, but it's part of our community, and it's our community that we're expanding.

706
00:55:07,964 --> 00:55:12,884
And, yes, this is part of our development plan, and ARC 2 is part of our development plan.

707
00:55:13,144 --> 00:55:20,584
And other, Napredak, which is at the Appetine Marina, there's a piece of land that we'd love to make a commercial center down there.

708
00:55:20,624 --> 00:55:23,464
It's just five minutes down the road or even less.

709
00:55:24,544 --> 00:55:32,304
And there's some other projects that we're trying to identify and hook up investors to come and bring money here and make it part of our community.

710
00:55:32,304 --> 00:55:34,684
It's not just that one piece of land, Liberland.

711
00:55:34,864 --> 00:55:39,324
It's about the whole region that we want to make a positive impact on.

712
00:55:39,504 --> 00:55:42,084
But that's a very 21st century idea.

713
00:55:42,244 --> 00:55:42,904
That's what I mean.

714
00:55:43,284 --> 00:55:46,544
When you look at, because in the Free Cities kind of ecosystem,

715
00:55:46,804 --> 00:55:50,164
there's a number of places which are beginning like this.

716
00:55:50,724 --> 00:55:52,684
They're not going straight for sovereignty.

717
00:55:52,884 --> 00:55:54,784
They're not trying to claim a piece of land.

718
00:55:55,084 --> 00:56:00,544
But they are considering themselves as a group, as something.

719
00:56:00,544 --> 00:56:07,624
and and um you've got yeah it's you've got morassan yeah but they have you have they actually

720
00:56:07,624 --> 00:56:15,624
have autonomy they have regulatory autonomy but but um i mean the idea that you can create a nation

721
00:56:15,624 --> 00:56:21,984
in cyberspace and then manifest it in the world it could only have appeared it could only have

722
00:56:21,984 --> 00:56:27,104
happened in the last sort of 50 years or 30 years right right since the internet appeared and we

723
00:56:27,104 --> 00:56:34,064
don't really know what that looks like yet because it's happening like new sort of sort of digital

724
00:56:34,064 --> 00:56:40,484
borders are being drawn now currently in cyberspace aren't they and physical geography is has less

725
00:56:40,484 --> 00:56:48,644
somewhat less significance than it did you know before this was possible to happen sure but but

726
00:56:48,644 --> 00:56:54,144
that's what i mean and i when i think of live alone i always think of the aspect of it which is

727
00:56:54,144 --> 00:56:59,944
we are planting a flag in a piece of land and claiming it but maybe that's that's the old school

728
00:56:59,944 --> 00:57:05,544
way of doing it i don't know it is the old school way of doing it yeah and we saw an opportunity

729
00:57:05,544 --> 00:57:11,464
where we could still do that yeah and we did but that's yeah that is part of it it's part of the

730
00:57:11,464 --> 00:57:18,664
story it's part physical land it's part network state it's part branding it's part being part of a

731
00:57:18,664 --> 00:57:22,664
global community, but we're both a global and local

732
00:57:22,664 --> 00:57:25,664
community I would say, and this is part of that.

733
00:57:25,664 --> 00:57:28,664
And we want to do it, we have, we're doing it in Croatia.

734
00:57:28,664 --> 00:57:32,664
We've got some people, a number of people who have bought real estate over,

735
00:57:32,664 --> 00:57:38,664
right just outside of Liberland in Croatia, in Zmajavac, in Batina,

736
00:57:38,664 --> 00:57:43,664
and Knezjevi Vinogradi, and a couple of the other little towns around there,

737
00:57:43,664 --> 00:57:48,664
nice area. People have started buying real estate, people connected to Liberland.

738
00:57:48,664 --> 00:58:00,444
Here's another even bigger thought experiment, because I'm just thinking, I spent last, this year, I spent a couple of weeks in New Hampshire, meeting everyone from the Free State Project.

739
00:58:00,524 --> 00:58:01,804
Did you go to the Porkfest?

740
00:58:02,124 --> 00:58:07,924
No, I didn't. It was before that. I was there in America doing something else, so I just had to go at a certain time in the year.

741
00:58:07,924 --> 00:58:11,364
But no, unfortunately, I didn't go to Porkfest, but I would love to.

742
00:58:11,444 --> 00:58:17,064
But I did meet most people within the movement and interviewed them, all the major people anyway.

743
00:58:17,064 --> 00:58:23,844
but it just occurred to me then that maybe if you look long term enough at the Liberland trajectory

744
00:58:23,844 --> 00:58:29,024
like you've just described people over there are kind of integrating into the community slowly

745
00:58:29,024 --> 00:58:36,084
blah blah blah who knows you the way you end up with a sympathetic kind of government or a

746
00:58:36,084 --> 00:58:44,124
sympathetic community is that your numbers just swell around this place maybe I don't know yeah

747
00:58:44,124 --> 00:58:46,064
Five years ago, we didn't have this place.

748
00:58:46,744 --> 00:58:51,924
Vitt had an apartment in Sambor, and there were people here who worked for us,

749
00:58:52,044 --> 00:58:53,544
but we didn't have this place.

750
00:58:53,864 --> 00:58:57,084
So we are growing slowly, but we're growing.

751
00:58:57,604 --> 00:59:02,304
And the more we can get people we can get to participate in this physically,

752
00:59:02,524 --> 00:59:03,524
you don't have to be here all.

753
00:59:03,544 --> 00:59:04,564
I'm not here all the time.

754
00:59:05,324 --> 00:59:09,864
I'm here a good bit of the time, but I have to go home every couple of months,

755
00:59:09,944 --> 00:59:10,764
and then I come back.

756
00:59:11,564 --> 00:59:13,664
You don't have to be here 100% of the time.

757
00:59:13,664 --> 00:59:23,744
what would it take for you to come here for good uh good question a nice house uh you know people

758
00:59:23,744 --> 00:59:29,824
working for us so i could you know work together with them and work on liberal and stuff you know

759
00:59:29,824 --> 00:59:35,984
if it were a little more you know i i have come over here for for most of the time so most of the

760
00:59:35,984 --> 00:59:43,344
the time I am here. So in a sense, I have moved over here. But I still have a house back in the

761
00:59:43,344 --> 00:59:49,864
States and, you know, a company do other stuff. So you've got everyone in the Liberland government

762
00:59:49,864 --> 00:59:53,884
has to hold down a couple of jobs. Yeah, unfortunately. Well, there's nothing wrong

763
00:59:53,884 --> 00:59:58,984
with that. That's, you know, I think that's a good sign. Yeah, I don't think governments should be

764
00:59:58,984 --> 01:00:03,844
that big. I don't think it should be all encompassing. I think I think the best governments

765
01:00:03,844 --> 01:00:10,124
are the small ones where the local businessman is in the government or a local worker we want to

766
01:00:10,124 --> 01:00:19,104
keep it so small that if you blink you could miss it well there you go well um i think um maybe you

767
01:00:19,104 --> 01:00:23,764
should just round up with a kind of i think i probably asked you this last time and i'm not

768
01:00:23,764 --> 01:00:29,884
sure i got a huge answer but can you make any predictions over the next sort of year or so

769
01:00:29,884 --> 01:00:41,024
Where's Liberland going? What's most exciting or what's most optimistic for you when you think about it?

770
01:00:43,244 --> 01:00:51,484
I see us elevating people's awareness and consciousness about freedom and inspiring other Liberlands.

771
01:00:51,484 --> 01:00:59,564
If we could inspire two or three other Liberlands, whether it's through the Free Cities Movement or some other project that has yet to be developed,

772
01:00:59,884 --> 01:01:01,404
that I think were successful.

773
01:01:02,484 --> 01:01:06,604
But I mean, Liberland, as in, you know,

774
01:01:06,824 --> 01:01:10,204
claiming a bit of terra nullius, is not very easy.

775
01:01:10,304 --> 01:01:12,824
Because as far as I know, there's only one other terra nullius

776
01:01:12,824 --> 01:01:15,644
in the desert between, is it?

777
01:01:15,804 --> 01:01:16,524
Egypt and Sudan.

778
01:01:16,704 --> 01:01:17,264
That's right.

779
01:01:17,844 --> 01:01:24,204
So in that sense, it's very difficult to sort of inspire change.

780
01:01:24,444 --> 01:01:27,984
I think as an intentional group of people coming together

781
01:01:27,984 --> 01:01:29,464
and doing something, for sure.

782
01:01:29,464 --> 01:01:30,404
Is that what you meant?

783
01:01:32,204 --> 01:01:32,684
Yeah.

784
01:01:32,964 --> 01:01:34,964
I mean, it could take a different forum.

785
01:01:35,164 --> 01:01:36,544
It doesn't have to be a terra nullius.

786
01:01:36,664 --> 01:01:37,704
It could be seasteading.

787
01:01:37,984 --> 01:01:40,884
It could be a special economic zone.

788
01:01:41,084 --> 01:01:46,084
It could be a city declaring themselves free or mostly free.

789
01:01:47,344 --> 01:01:50,924
I think if Liberland, if we can double our number of citizens

790
01:01:50,924 --> 01:01:53,624
and maybe triple our number of e-residents,

791
01:01:54,224 --> 01:01:55,604
we become that much stronger.

792
01:01:55,604 --> 01:01:59,384
And the stronger we are globally, the more leverage we'll have.

793
01:01:59,464 --> 01:02:01,424
And that's exciting, actually.

794
01:02:02,284 --> 01:02:05,464
Well, thanks for coming in and chatting again, Thomas.

795
01:02:06,984 --> 01:02:09,484
I'm still, like I say, I'm still on board.

796
01:02:09,804 --> 01:02:13,344
I just always will probably watch Liberland from a distance.

797
01:02:13,464 --> 01:02:18,184
I did say to Witt, though, that it would be very funny to wake up one morning

798
01:02:18,184 --> 01:02:24,644
and I described it, open the daily paper, which you don't do, obviously, anymore,

799
01:02:24,644 --> 01:02:27,444
and there to be some news that

800
01:02:27,444 --> 01:02:29,964
Liberland had got independence.

801
01:02:30,304 --> 01:02:31,504
Stranger things have happened.

802
01:02:31,824 --> 01:02:44,236
Well no I with you on that This is the age we live in This is the internet age where things change like that You know like do you remember when we were all locked in our houses during COVID

803
01:02:44,516 --> 01:02:45,376
No, nor do I.

804
01:02:45,856 --> 01:02:47,196
That wasn't very long ago.

805
01:02:47,436 --> 01:02:49,016
People have changed since then.

806
01:02:49,016 --> 01:02:52,596
Who knows what will happen, you know?

807
01:02:52,796 --> 01:02:59,936
And if, you know, politics falls apart in Europe and different things happen, countries split off,

808
01:02:59,936 --> 01:03:05,396
that has also happened in recent memory, you know, that might affect us in our position, you know.

809
01:03:05,776 --> 01:03:11,736
But we, you know, certainly we welcome people who, you know, we welcome skeptics and critics.

810
01:03:11,916 --> 01:03:17,256
That's how we improve. That's how we deliver a better product. That's how we improve ourselves.

811
01:03:17,256 --> 01:03:20,516
And that's how we learn to communicate better.

812
01:03:21,476 --> 01:03:25,696
Yep. Well, you can count me as a skeptic. I'm a friendly skeptic.

813
01:03:25,696 --> 01:03:34,256
um but i like i say until i can until i see a a no you can get a liberland passport already can't

814
01:03:34,256 --> 01:03:40,256
you what would it take for me i think probably for me it would have to be some kind of um

815
01:03:40,256 --> 01:03:47,436
um international recognition how does that happen like what would for what would it be for you guys

816
01:03:47,436 --> 01:03:53,936
what what would be the thing that you would be literally celebrating oh my god it's happy it's

817
01:03:53,936 --> 01:04:00,476
happening you know yeah in the rumble sense yeah what what would that be for

818
01:04:00,476 --> 01:04:04,656
you though like say Argentina formally recognizes Liberland that would be a

819
01:04:04,656 --> 01:04:09,476
huge win for us really yeah but what about the you know what's the what's the

820
01:04:09,476 --> 01:04:15,656
moment when you you as a government come together and say right we have to start

821
01:04:15,656 --> 01:04:20,216
you know pull up our bootstraps yeah yeah yeah yeah really really get to work

822
01:04:20,216 --> 01:04:28,636
What would that be? I'm talking about concrete structures, you know, driving piles into the sand to make proper buildings.

823
01:04:28,976 --> 01:04:30,256
You know, all this. When does that happen?

824
01:04:30,516 --> 01:04:35,176
Yeah. When stuff starts becoming official, that's when when that happens.

825
01:04:35,196 --> 01:04:38,696
And that would be a catalyst for me moving over here.

826
01:04:38,696 --> 01:04:45,296
And what would that be exactly? Would that have to be Croatia acknowledging that you're...

827
01:04:45,296 --> 01:04:51,336
Well, acknowledging that we're a community, regardless of the future outcome or status of that land,

828
01:04:51,636 --> 01:04:53,116
saying, OK, you guys are a community.

829
01:04:53,716 --> 01:04:58,316
You can build a little town here in the middle of Liberland.

830
01:04:58,436 --> 01:04:58,976
Then, yes.

831
01:04:59,416 --> 01:05:01,876
And we're not going to tear it down because it's not our jurisdiction.

832
01:05:02,396 --> 01:05:08,296
Them admitting it's not their jurisdiction and leaving us alone, that would be a major win for us.

833
01:05:08,296 --> 01:05:14,976
If you got, say, someone like Argentina acknowledged diplomatically that you were a place,

834
01:05:15,296 --> 01:05:18,596
how much impact would that have on Croatia, do you think?

835
01:05:18,696 --> 01:05:21,416
Do you think it would, I mean, is that big for them?

836
01:05:21,476 --> 01:05:22,716
I know it would be big for you, but.

837
01:05:22,956 --> 01:05:25,536
They would, you know, probably ignore it.

838
01:05:25,536 --> 01:05:31,356
Even if Croatia recognizes us as a community and an entity, a legal entity,

839
01:05:31,916 --> 01:05:34,436
that wouldn't necessarily affect them very much.

840
01:05:34,476 --> 01:05:36,236
It might influence them a little bit.

841
01:05:36,936 --> 01:05:42,956
Actually, when El Salvador was talking to us, Croatia contacted them.

842
01:05:42,956 --> 01:05:45,616
and like, oh, whatever these Liberland guys are doing for you,

843
01:05:45,676 --> 01:05:47,956
we'll double it and just don't talk to them.

844
01:05:49,516 --> 01:05:50,496
And that happened.

845
01:05:50,896 --> 01:05:52,236
Yeah, it told me about that.

846
01:05:52,256 --> 01:05:54,036
Yeah, they approached El Salvador and said,

847
01:05:54,136 --> 01:05:56,896
well, oh, they're donating to the children's hospital.

848
01:05:56,896 --> 01:05:59,996
Well, we'll give some money to some schools in El Salvador

849
01:05:59,996 --> 01:06:03,076
and just ignore the Liberland guys.

850
01:06:03,576 --> 01:06:05,536
But, I mean, that's quite powerful in itself.

851
01:06:05,676 --> 01:06:08,736
I mean, you could go and do a deal with the government and say,

852
01:06:08,816 --> 01:06:11,336
look, if you could talk publicly to us,

853
01:06:11,336 --> 01:06:17,736
you'll probably get a bunch of investment from from from croatia yeah yeah use that as a technique

854
01:06:17,736 --> 01:06:21,876
actually there's an interesting story you may or may not have heard about it the island of

855
01:06:21,876 --> 01:06:30,316
anobon is uh officially part of equatorial guinea right now um the uh they declared independence i

856
01:06:30,316 --> 01:06:36,916
believe it was two years ago they are treated very badly by equatorial guinea which is essentially a

857
01:06:36,916 --> 01:06:44,956
dictatorship. They have a government in exile. They live in Spain. We've been in contact with

858
01:06:44,956 --> 01:06:52,836
them, and they've been in contact with Argentina. They were actually part of Argentina during the

859
01:06:53,496 --> 01:07:00,556
Spanish colonial era, and they've either asked, we want to be independent, or maybe we could become

860
01:07:00,556 --> 01:07:05,876
part of Argentina. So they've sent a delegation to Argentina. It's this tiny island near San Tomé

861
01:07:05,876 --> 01:07:11,056
and Principe, we're off the coast of Africa, that are looking for independence.

862
01:07:11,236 --> 01:07:13,156
It's a little bigger than Liberland, not much bigger.

863
01:07:13,616 --> 01:07:15,396
It's got about 5,000 people there.

864
01:07:16,036 --> 01:07:19,336
Equatorial Guinea has been using it as a toxic waste dumping ground.

865
01:07:19,836 --> 01:07:24,396
So other countries have paid Equatorial Guinea to get rid of their toxic waste,

866
01:07:24,396 --> 01:07:27,836
and they have been dumping it on the island of Annabon.

867
01:07:28,996 --> 01:07:31,456
And the people there are treated very badly.

868
01:07:32,056 --> 01:07:32,336
Wow.

869
01:07:32,336 --> 01:07:38,696
Wow, so Argentina might, and this is all because Millais is a bit of a libertarian, right?

870
01:07:39,016 --> 01:07:41,216
Is that the draw now to Argentina?

871
01:07:41,476 --> 01:07:42,136
I think so.

872
01:07:42,216 --> 01:07:45,916
It certainly, you know, it makes things possible that weren't possible before.

873
01:07:47,036 --> 01:07:47,936
Could be cool.

874
01:07:48,856 --> 01:07:50,896
Could be, this could be a signal.

875
01:07:51,156 --> 01:07:52,256
I don't really know.

876
01:07:52,256 --> 01:08:02,476
I'm in two minds about all this stuff as to whether now there's going to be a resurgence of libertarian ideas even in the Internet.

877
01:08:02,636 --> 01:08:06,596
Well, there are a lot more libertarians around than there were 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

878
01:08:07,036 --> 01:08:09,656
Yeah, because they've put a name on it, right?

879
01:08:09,856 --> 01:08:10,476
Is that it?

880
01:08:10,596 --> 01:08:11,356
That's what I think.

881
01:08:11,616 --> 01:08:16,196
No, the name existed before, but more people know what the name means.

882
01:08:16,316 --> 01:08:16,896
That's what I mean.

883
01:08:17,016 --> 01:08:19,276
So there might be something to that.

884
01:08:19,276 --> 01:08:28,136
But like, for example, in Europe, 20, 30 years ago, there was very few people of that, by name or not, there was very few people who believed in those ideas.

885
01:08:28,296 --> 01:08:29,136
Now there's quite a few.

886
01:08:29,976 --> 01:08:33,116
Yeah, I kind of class myself as one of them, actually.

887
01:08:33,576 --> 01:08:38,696
Prior to the Internet age, I didn't change inside.

888
01:08:39,456 --> 01:08:41,516
I'm the same guy I was when I was younger.

889
01:08:41,516 --> 01:08:48,716
It's just that I realized other people were talking about them in the realm of ideas

890
01:08:48,716 --> 01:08:53,516
and that there was a reason to exhibit these ways of being.

891
01:08:53,916 --> 01:08:55,876
It wasn't just me.

892
01:08:56,536 --> 01:09:01,716
It was, there's a whole, you know, people have debated this for millennia.

893
01:09:01,796 --> 01:09:04,536
A lot of times people did feel that way in various countries,

894
01:09:04,616 --> 01:09:08,896
but they just left to go somewhere else where it was slightly freer or somewhat freer.

895
01:09:08,896 --> 01:09:11,596
like I lived in Germany for a while.

896
01:09:11,716 --> 01:09:13,716
You could count the number of libertarians in Germany

897
01:09:13,716 --> 01:09:14,996
on one hand back then,

898
01:09:15,076 --> 01:09:17,216
but now there's quite a few.

899
01:09:17,336 --> 01:09:18,076
They've got a party.

900
01:09:18,376 --> 01:09:19,676
They've got a libertarian party there.

901
01:09:19,716 --> 01:09:23,976
I interviewed one of the guys that's running it.

902
01:09:24,056 --> 01:09:25,316
I can't remember what his job was there,

903
01:09:25,516 --> 01:09:28,576
but no, I mean, yeah, maybe this is it.

904
01:09:28,656 --> 01:09:30,436
Maybe this is the next hundred years

905
01:09:30,436 --> 01:09:33,776
is when all this stuff takes hold.

906
01:09:33,856 --> 01:09:34,276
Who knows?

907
01:09:34,556 --> 01:09:34,776
Anyway.

908
01:09:35,156 --> 01:09:36,676
It'll be exciting to watch and fun.

909
01:09:36,916 --> 01:09:37,316
It will.

910
01:09:37,316 --> 01:09:44,376
And I'm, as always, excited to watch Liberland happen, let's say.

911
01:09:44,576 --> 01:09:45,656
And thanks for coming to chat.

912
01:09:45,736 --> 01:09:46,696
Nice to see you again, Thomas.

913
01:09:46,836 --> 01:09:47,456
Anytime, Tim.

914
01:09:47,636 --> 01:09:49,396
Enjoy the rest of Liberpolka.

915
01:09:49,496 --> 01:09:49,856
Oh, yeah.

916
01:09:49,956 --> 01:09:50,356
It's great.

917
01:09:50,456 --> 01:09:51,976
I wish more people could come.

918
01:09:52,436 --> 01:09:54,356
More people are here than last year.

919
01:09:54,516 --> 01:09:56,336
And then next year, hopefully, we'll...

920
01:09:56,336 --> 01:09:57,596
Sounded like a Freudian slip.

921
01:09:57,936 --> 01:09:58,116
Yeah.

922
01:09:59,336 --> 01:10:00,716
There's plenty of people here.

923
01:10:00,796 --> 01:10:01,276
It's lovely.

924
01:10:01,576 --> 01:10:05,316
Especially what I wish that my children weren't...

925
01:10:05,316 --> 01:10:08,936
had just gone back to school because it's a lovely place.

926
01:10:09,016 --> 01:10:11,496
They would absolutely love spending the few days.

927
01:10:11,496 --> 01:10:14,736
We might have it a little earlier, so before school starts,

928
01:10:14,756 --> 01:10:15,956
you can bring your family.

929
01:10:16,176 --> 01:10:18,516
And, of course, we're a very family-friendly place here.

930
01:10:18,676 --> 01:10:19,236
It's wonderful.

931
01:10:19,476 --> 01:10:22,996
It's a wonderful site with a lake and swimming everywhere.

932
01:10:23,396 --> 01:10:23,956
It's beautiful.

933
01:10:23,956 --> 01:10:26,756
Yeah, if you could do that, Thomas, next year,

934
01:10:26,916 --> 01:10:30,536
I will bring my family here for this because it's beautiful.

935
01:10:30,696 --> 01:10:31,456
I will push for it.

936
01:10:31,496 --> 01:10:33,076
We already have people suggesting that,

937
01:10:33,076 --> 01:10:39,396
so that's an added ammunition to push for that great thanks and yeah see you

938
01:10:39,396 --> 01:10:42,996
next time thanks Tim great anytime