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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 174 of the Free Cities podcast,

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brought to you this week by two wonderfully Free City aligned sponsors.

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That's, of course, Veritas Villages and ArcPad.

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Veritas Villages are building off-grid freedom-oriented communities in Latin America.

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Click on the link in the show notes to inquire about their new project in Costa Rica

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and their other projects in Nicaragua and Panama.

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And if you're a Bitcoiner like me, well, you can spend your Bitcoin at a Veritas village.

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You can buy land and property with Bitcoin and you can mine Bitcoin with your energy self-sufficient house.

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www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities art pad.

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Also, they're planning a second iteration of their groundbreaking reef resort in the Philippines.

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this time off the coast of that's right prospera in honduras one of the most important free cities

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projects in the world you can purchase ownership in the prosper reef resort either outright or via

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fractional shares tinyurl.com forward slash arc pad if you would like to buy a piece of seasteading

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history there and also then benefit from the revenues and use of the arc pad resort as well

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of course. Right, I'm in planning and packing mode today. Off to the Freedom Festival in the

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UK this weekend. Lots of great speakers there and then straight on a flight to Prospera for the

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Liberty Acceleration Summit. After that, I'm going to be walking the talk, as they say, by, that's

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right, living in a free city for a month. I'm going to be based in the Doona Tower in Prospera

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for four weeks working from there and of course diving into the mechanics of daily life in one of

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the world's premier free cities can't wait for that experience it will be the longest i've ever

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been away from my children in one go but obviously i'm looking forward to seeing how things pan out

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i i see a future in positioning myself and my family in a free city probably a number of them

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in rotation if I'm being honest but who knows certainly I will know a lot more in six weeks

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times and I'll be informing you every week of how things are going right today's guest

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it's a great one it's very highbrow one as well Patrick Schumacher is one of the most influential

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architects alive right now he's a longtime partner at Zaha Hadid Architects a major theorist behind

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parametricism and a founder director of the aa design research lab in london i'll give you a

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quick uh definition of parametricism since we talk about it quite a bit in the show it's patrick's

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term for a 21st century architectural style driven by computational parametric methods

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this means forms are generated and continuously varied by adjustable parameters example site

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circulation program structure etc etc so buildings and urban spaces become more fluid more adaptive

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and interconnected but still coherent and legible as a unified system rather than just a pile of

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unrelated objects patrick's a bit of a free cities og google image search here is your best friend

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just search the word parametricism and you'll get to the brief pretty quickly right today's

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conversation well it's certainly not about what makes buildings pretty it's a free market critique

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of the built environment itself why housing is unaffordable why planning regimes kill the

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discovery process and why urbanism in places like the uk has become a politicized rent seeking

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machine instead of a competitive entrepreneurial one patrick's origin story is also very interesting

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He says that the 2008 crisis is what pushed him into Austrian economics and consequently full-on libertarianism.

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Then he followed the thread straight into free cities via Liberland, Prospera and Titus' book Free Private Cities.

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We get into his core idea that cities are a form of spontaneous order

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and that the job of architecture is not to impose a rigid blueprint,

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but to make the real network of human relationships legible.

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From there, we go deeper why he thinks parametricism is basically order emerging from complexity,

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why AI will actually accelerate the frontier rather than flatten everything into sameness,

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and why Patrick believes free cities should look like the 21st century,

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not nostalgic reenactments of the 19th century.

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That one's going to divide the community, I'm sure.

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right value for value people and comments this week unfortunately you're going to have to wait

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i'm recording these next two episodes uh way in advance because i'm too busy to do anything during

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my first two weeks on the road in honduras so you'll have to wait a couple of weeks for those

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sorry about that uh a quick mention the free cities conference talking of prosper is now just

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166 days away and this year's event well it's a huge one for the first time ever we'll be holding

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our flagship annual conference inside a real functioning free city but you already knew that

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didn't you in previous years we've gathered in europe we've done prague we did mulheim in

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switzerland and monaco back in the early days but this year prospera is ready to host us on the

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beautiful island of Ruatan in Honduras. This event is quickly becoming our most anticipated conference

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yet and we're expecting more international attention than ever before. What can attendees

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expect? Well all the things that made our Prague conferences so valuable, presentations and updates

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from more than a dozen of the world's leading free cities and seasteading projects. This includes

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projects like Ciudad Morazan, Varistas Villages, CryptoCity, ArcPad, Atlas Island, Liberland and many more.

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Obviously, they're just the stalwarts from the movement.

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But what makes this event a first is that you won't just be hearing about free cities.

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You'll be experiencing one firsthand.

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If you're short on time, the core conference program in Prospera runs from September the 3rd to the 6th,

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Featuring keynote talks, panel discussions, project presentations and plenty of opportunities for networking.

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Of course, that's a massive part of our events.

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Many a project has been dreamed up at a Free Cities conference.

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Let me tell you, my own included.

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We'll also have our famous VIP dinner and auction with Mr.

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Mark Edge for those who want to upgrade their tickets.

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But if you have a little bit more time, I strongly encourage you to arrive early.

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and take part in our optional activities on September the 1st and 2nd.

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These include a prosperous site tour, networking events with local businesses,

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snorkeling over Ruatan's famous coral reefs, chocolate tasting,

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visits to wildlife parks, championship beach volleyball and much more.

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We also offering a special day excursion to Ciudad Morazan which is another famous free city project on the Honduran mainland these trips will take place on the 2nd of September and again on the 7th of September So if you can extend your stay

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you'll have the rare opportunity to visit not one but two free cities in a single trip.

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Siudad Morazan has a very different personality to Prospera, which you will see if you manage to

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get there this really is a historic moment for the movement not only are we hosting our conference

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inside a functioning free city for the first time but the political winds in Honduras have recently

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shifted in favor of free cities with the election of a new president if you can make it this truly

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will be an event not to be missed and tickets well you think what's this worth thousands possibly

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no tickets start at 239 people what's not to like there but be aware prices increase

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after april the 30th so be sure to secure yours soon and start planning what should be the trip

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of a lifetime and also probably worth mentioning we're limit slightly limited on space compared

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to Prague. So this event will sell out, I would imagine. So don't sit around for too long. It's

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the kind of thing you need to plan and that includes many of the intricacies of getting

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to Roatan and visas and things like this. So start thinking about it now and start planning.

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Right on to the conversation. I would advise you to grab your most ergonomic seating apparatus

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and as you dream of a skylines shaped by feedback loops well just sit back relax and enjoy my

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conversation with patrick schumacher okay easy going yeah very easy going i mean i've got

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I wouldn't say I'm nowhere near an expert on obviously on architecture, but I did dive into your world of architecture.

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And it's a lot to take on board when you come from where I come from, which is, you know, period properties and etc.

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And things like that.

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This is my, but I am absolutely fascinated.

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And I source, I've got a lot of questions actually

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about the way you think about architecture

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because I thought I could see some things

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that don't make sense to me, if you sort of know.

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But we'll come to that.

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Tease them out, probe me.

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We'll come to that.

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Can we start with just how you got involved

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with the Free Cities movement?

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I know you've been dipping your toes in and out

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for quite a long time now.

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You've got connections with Prospera, with Liberland, with a lot of the projects.

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Yeah, that's absolutely right.

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So first of all, I became a libertarian through the 2008 crisis.

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And a lot of people shifted left, became anti-capitalist.

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But I had been there from the mid-80s into the mid-90s and moved out of that.

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So I wasn't going to be tempted back into left-wing ideology.

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So when I discovered the Austrian School of Economics, because the explanation of the crisis made a lot of sense to me.

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And people like Peter Schiff, you know, predicting it and somebody like Tom Woods explaining it.

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And then diving rapidly into picking up the readings, writings, and I discovered the Mises Institute and so on and the works of Rosbott.

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But I've already been familiar to some extent with Hayek's works.

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So that's where I started.

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And it applies beautifully to the built environment

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because in the development process, urban development process,

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we don't have much market process left.

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It's very, very heavily kind of controlled and regulated and politicized

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and to the detriment of development.

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It basically leads to some kind of paralysis.

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And in the end, the housing crisis, for instance, we have affordability crisis.

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It can be traced back to that.

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and it's all rent-seeking and it's rather than proper competition, entrepreneurship, discovery process.

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None of this exists in a built environment in the advanced countries, for instance, Britain.

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Now, so I was very intrigued when I – so I was a full-on libertarian,

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and also understood that it's very important in the urban development process to liberalize.

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I just heard about Liberland and being founded I was intrigued and more or less immediately

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in the first year of founding I flew to Prague and visited with Jelitschka the president and

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founder of Liberland and we had a whole afternoon on his roof terrace debating discussing and so

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So that's where I connected and then I went to also to visit Liberland.

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I mean, you couldn't go there, but there was a Liberland conference close by in Serbia.

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And Eric Brimman picked me up, was there at the time consulting WIT and New Way Capital trying to help WIT to negotiate deals.

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and so I met with Eric and we also learned about Prospera at the time and through that also came

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in touch with Titus and also he had just published a book around that time, Free Private Cities,

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which I was eagerly gobbling up and then I got involved with Eric. We were in parallel working

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with with with vit we did helped him to organize some architectural competitions and then we

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developed the metaverse for liberland i went to several of his conferences and i also connected

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up with eric and titus visited prospera and we did studies actually urban development studies

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for Eric and then also you know more detailed housing proposals with a very

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new concept of kind of market exploration through co-creation which is something

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you couldn't do in Europe because of the planning restrictions so that's yeah

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that's why I got into it and I was at the time also been going around speaking

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at many libertarian conferences,

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Students for Liberty in various places in the US,

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Liberty Con and so on,

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and met with people and became part of a network.

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So here's where I find it really interesting

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because you're the...

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Did you invent parametric design?

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Not parametric design.

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So I coined the phrase parametricism

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and recognizing that there's something very profound and fundamental called the new epochal

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style for the 21st century and that was my role and also so kind of canonizing to some extent what

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has been achieved over a number of years by that time it was nearly 15 years in some kind of wave

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a whole generation of architects investing in these new computational design concepts but also

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the physiognomy morphology of these compositions and urban plans became kind of radically different

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and new much more adaptive much more organic through the kind of techniques of integration

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adaptation and this coincided with the with the idea of the so-called urban renaissance where

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the period in the mid century there was this kind of sub greenfield factories sleeping cities and not much communication required in the city because everything was command and control planned through big corporates or the state and you have this kind

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of re and have this kind of flow back into the city with the beginnings of the knowledge economy

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through the computational and telecommunication revolution and so so that was in architecture

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meant more dynamism, more complexity, layering new onto old.

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And that developed some kind of new transitional styles.

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Postmodernism came out of that so-called deconstructivism.

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And I was involved with that, with Zaha Deed,

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was one of the major forces of so-called deconstructivism.

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And out of that developed something which I later, in retrospect,

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called parametricism, which is quite distinct,

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but I think much more long-lasting.

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So postmodernism had 10, 15 years, deconstructors in 10 years, and then primatism, we're now literally 30 years in.

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But the 2008 crisis took the steam out because what was great in the period up to that, there was much more dynamism development.

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You know, there was the remarketization of a lot of development processes.

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and you had phenomena like Dubai and Europe,

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a lot of booming cities,

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and that energized the whole field

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and gave also younger voices, new voices, work to do.

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And 2008 was a general moment of retrenchment,

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where you had the anti-capitalist flourish,

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where there wasn't work,

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where the schools of architecture also became kind of more politicized and anti-capitalist.

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And so that, in a way, took the steam out of this movement, Permettism, unfortunately.

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Because throughout the 90s and up to 2008, 9, 10, it was really, the field seemed to be converging on this.

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And, I mean, we kept going, and there's a number of other protagonists,

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the small hand of protagonists kept going, and we kept rolling out and maturing and developing.

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but it didn't deliver that kind of takeover of the field

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similar to what the modernists who started in the 1920s

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and into the 30s.

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Then there was a disruption of the Second World War

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but then post-war was rolling out throughout the 40s, 50s, 60s

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and transformed the physiognomy of that planet all over.

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And so that didn't happen with parametricism.

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So we got this kind of strange retrenchment

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going into retro styles, going into quiet, inconspicuous.

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And the field, the discipline itself,

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started more talk about social justice and sustainability

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and criticizing growth.

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There was, I call it also some kind of vogue takeover of the field,

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which hampered in a way the kind of optimistic, progressive,

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in a positive sense, let's say, technology-fueled advancement of urban life.

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So, okay.

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God, there's a lot there.

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There's a lot there.

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Did I hear that right?

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That parametricism came out of postmodernism?

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Yeah, it's a version.

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I mean, postmodernism injected some kind of degree of complexity,

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and there was this kind of idea of collaging motifs

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and integrating new over old,

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but it used traditional motifs.

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It was a kind of pop collaging with traditional architectural motifs,

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but you get something which is more lively and rich and varied

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than the modernism, which is this paradigm of endless repetition.

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And so postmodernism started to be more playful and versatile, but with historical motifs.

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Then deconstructorism picked up the kind of versatility and complexity build up, but no longer with historical motifs, but with more abstract geometric elements.

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And so that was, I thought, in advance.

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And they had additional, let's say, compositional opportunities, which postmodernism didn't have.

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And out of that, though, this wasn't, in my view, sustainable because it became very quickly too complex and illegible.

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These compositions, they became kind of, let's say, visual chaos, nearly.

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And so parametriism comes out of this ordering that chaos, but having the intricacy, versatility, adaptiveness of what we try to aim for in deconstructors.

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but with the new tools, computational tools,

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we could do something which was more coherent

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and more legible, let's say.

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Here's where when I was looking into all this,

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this is where my mind found a problem.

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And we should probably define parametricism before we go on.

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But basically, you've just said it there,

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parametricism was a way of creating order out of chaos

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in a way you've just described that's right but but i i got i was under the impression that

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parametricism is more about a spontaneous evolution of something it they they seem like

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they seem they seem or like you mentioned hayek and his spontaneous order yeah but they seem at

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odds with each other you've got this formal regime deciding what's what and then you've got a

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spontaneous order no okay i can resolve that first of all on the step back on a more general

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philosophical level, we looked at process of self-organization, spontaneous order, you know,

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complexity theory, chaos theory, the way, for instance, a complex formation of eddies and flows

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and happens when the water flows across some rocks. These are lawfully, but they're quite

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complex and rich and adaptive. And they're not invented. You don't impose. You allow the various

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parameters and influences to come together and have a kind of self-organization.

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And that's something which Hayek could also use that phrase, because he was interested

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in these processes of self-organization, complexity theory, like cybernetics.

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So I think there's the connection right there.

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Now, when it comes to the spontaneous order of the city, what I'm arguing is this.

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we need to allow entrepreneurial freedom.

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We need land use should not be described by any planning regime.

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I think that people come together into the city

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by seeking out very particular connections

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and a multitude of connections.

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And they have to find each other.

254
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There needs to be the degree of freedom to associate and self-organize

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what I call the co-location synergies.

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That's what you need, maximal entrepreneurial freedom.

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And then the role of the architect is not to impose a formal order preconceived,

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but to congenially articulate this emerging network of relations

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by making these underlying connections, affiliations,

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what belongs together more or less, legible by articulating that.

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organizing that spatially and articulating this.

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So when you come into a site and you say,

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I wanted to be here because I wanted to be close to some of these neighbors,

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and so you establish then not you come in with a preconceived form.

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You say I have to be adaptive because I want to make my entrances into my building,

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line up with the entrances of the neighbors I want to connect to.

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I also want to formally affiliate to the buildings perhaps they have There a certain geometry a certain path hitting my building I allow this to continue in that direction so that you see the building forms out of these relations

268
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And parametricism allows for that.

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And that's the spirit.

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So it is some kind of spontaneous order, but it needs to be articulated.

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The profession, as has been, wasn't able to do this.

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It had a very rigid vocabulary and insisted on proportion symmetry, a certain orthogonality, but often sides, for instance, are not orthogonal.

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So you can exploit with a pliable, amoeba-like kind of approach.

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You can fit yourself much better, and also if there are different levels coming to your building, you can mediate.

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So these moves mean that we can trace and make visible the spontaneous order which emerges and we're not imposing.

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Our view is that we have to trace, follow, articulate the affiliations and connections because that's why people come into the city, to have these connections, to be close to things they care about.

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but also to work together with things they choose to be next to.

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And sometimes if everything is kind of visually chaotic,

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you don't understand what functions together.

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But if you formally affiliate and pick up some of the materiality,

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some of the geometry, some of the alignments and directions,

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you can kind of intuitively read this environment better.

283
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And that's our idea.

284
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And also to give, you know, don't stuff, also internal relations.

285
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Don't stuff everything which needs to be accommodated into a preconceived box, internally preconceived.

286
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No, you allow the requirements to push the envelope, to structure the internal relations without preconceived geometries.

287
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so the metrics yeah that they're based on then they're preconceived right are they metrics well

288
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okay as in parametricism can i can i just explain can i tell you what i think i'll tell you what i

289
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think okay because i'm probably wrong but parametricism is um a design language based on

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algorithms so you choose some algorithms yeah and then that forms the uh framework for within

291
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which within which anything can spontaneously evolve yeah right so so there are kind of

292
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preconceived yeah there's always frameworks but not only in parametrize the point of parametrize

293
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is that the frameworks are more versatile pliable they have more input parameters but also i can

294
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choose to have many potential frameworks I could bring to bear. Compared to older styles, there's

295
00:28:09,694 --> 00:28:16,814
only one or two or three inverted commas frameworks to start with, and they have less

296
00:28:16,814 --> 00:28:21,674
pliability. So it's always comparative. You can't get away from what I call the formal a priori,

297
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the kind of framing set of categories, even when you describe something. You come with a language.

298
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The question is, is your language more versatile, expressive, subtle, adaptive, or is it more crude, simplistic, etc.?

299
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So my argument is, parametriism has a more advanced, meaning sophisticated, pliable, expressive language,

300
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also more tools to pragmatically adapt, it's not only a question of expression,

301
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of expression as our accommodation to pragmatic conditions which are more complex. I mean the

302
00:28:58,454 --> 00:29:05,414
previous in the old world, you know, life in various institutions was more static. Nine to five you

303
00:29:05,414 --> 00:29:11,734
come and sit always in your same cell. At lunchtime you go to the canteen and after lunch you go back

304
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and then everybody streams out and you don't need to have inter-awareness, inter-visibility,

305
00:29:17,974 --> 00:29:24,854
in continuous recalibrating you have maybe a few scheduled meetings and that's much more dynamic

306
00:29:24,854 --> 00:29:30,534
now particularly knowledge economy so every day you need to make sure that you take note

307
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of what all the other moving parts are you plug into and then you kind of roaming around you often

308
00:29:36,494 --> 00:29:42,674
have not as fixed desk you're roaming around in different settings detail at a space for instance

309
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and you have meetings meetings meetings with with internal external conditions you also right after

310
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work and in between work you have lunch meetings which are business meetings maybe outside

311
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networking after hours you go to the pub or go to an exhibition opening or conference

312
00:29:59,554 --> 00:30:07,074
so it is much much much more dynamic and interactive and therefore the settings

313
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you need to emphasize different things you need to emphasize that that you accommodate all these

314
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flows and relations that people also have more legibility of all the other things going on which

315
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might be relevant to them that's why we have opening up the section we have atria inter

316
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visibility into awareness and we have more kind of fluid and different settings you can quickly

317
00:30:29,074 --> 00:30:34,014
shift from one setting to another it's not closed rooms once you sit in the closed rooms and then

318
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you come open the door there's an empty corridor and you have to know where you're going but if

319
00:30:38,634 --> 00:30:43,914
you're an open bureau landschaft over many levels you get a sense what's going who's coming who's

320
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going and and what might be relevant to you and if you go to a Google campus that's what it's like

321
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actually at Google people have 20% of the time free used to have to freely associate set up

322
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teams set up projects because you can no longer come out and control from above it's moving too

323
00:31:04,474 --> 00:31:09,594
fast knowledge is dispersed work is self-directed so we are creating the environment for that

324
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and it's not corporate headquarters and factories on the green field which which just get follow a

325
00:31:18,474 --> 00:31:24,954
blueprint you know so it's continuously rewriting the blueprint and that's what we want to we want

326
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You want to accommodate that and express that and facilitate that.

327
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And of course, you have always some kind of, you come with a kind of systematic systems framework,

328
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but there are many competing ones and they update quickly.

329
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So there's not one frame which we stuff everything into.

330
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It's like the endless species of nature.

331
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None of them is arbitrary.

332
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they start arbitrarily but then they adapt, they evolve, they exploit a niche and things in nature,

333
00:32:01,914 --> 00:32:06,334
these species, they co-locate and synergize and feed off each other.

334
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And that's the way I see the world of the spontaneous order of the knowledge economy.

335
00:32:15,814 --> 00:32:20,754
Something we end up discussing a fair bit on this podcast in relation to free cities,

336
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because they tend to be located often in brand new places.

337
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Which I was interested to hear your take on that.

338
00:32:30,774 --> 00:32:32,834
Because when you look historically at a lot of cities,

339
00:32:32,974 --> 00:32:36,534
they amass around something, normally a resource,

340
00:32:36,974 --> 00:32:39,754
and then they seem to evolve over a period of time.

341
00:32:40,374 --> 00:32:42,594
One of the kind of potential problems with free cities

342
00:32:42,594 --> 00:32:47,234
is you kind of have to plant them in one place and make them.

343
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So do you think you can build a full city from scratch

344
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or do you think you have to sort of start it and then let the market decide

345
00:32:55,674 --> 00:32:58,314
what happens to the place? Yeah you definitely have to let the market come in

346
00:32:58,314 --> 00:33:02,754
but also you need to seed it with something of something which already has

347
00:33:02,754 --> 00:33:07,494
the rough general features I wouldn't start with a grid of 100 equal blocks I

348
00:33:07,494 --> 00:33:13,754
would start with something which is a default differentiation or range economies of scope so

349
00:33:13,754 --> 00:33:17,934
you can have small medium large enterprises but you also allow them to

350
00:33:17,934 --> 00:33:19,954
connect so you can kind of

351
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:31,272
fuse blocks into allow for bridges etc. Yes you can fully invent on the drawing board but when you

352
00:33:31,272 --> 00:33:38,072
come to seeding a city and making first sketches you need to invite people to something which

353
00:33:39,112 --> 00:33:44,632
they can imagine but then there's something already you know there will be updates and

354
00:33:44,632 --> 00:33:47,252
and there will be transformations and flexibilities.

355
00:33:47,832 --> 00:33:49,332
You have to be very agile on that.

356
00:33:49,592 --> 00:33:55,052
And we can do that because we don't destroy the figure by making changes.

357
00:33:55,672 --> 00:34:00,812
If you become a very rigid, neoclassical, symmetrical, axial plan,

358
00:34:01,592 --> 00:34:06,512
if you adapt something, it will be out of whack and shows us a mistake.

359
00:34:07,352 --> 00:34:09,232
That's not the way we would design.

360
00:34:09,312 --> 00:34:10,432
So it's inherently flexible.

361
00:34:10,832 --> 00:34:12,952
We thought this through also with respect, for instance,

362
00:34:13,052 --> 00:34:14,512
something like Liberland or Prospera.

363
00:34:14,632 --> 00:34:20,772
So we're saying we can start in parallel with some kind of curated center.

364
00:34:21,512 --> 00:34:22,552
It just remains adaptable.

365
00:34:22,652 --> 00:34:26,292
Then we have other districts where we're trying to say, okay, come in,

366
00:34:27,132 --> 00:34:31,572
and we let the group of owners who started to invest,

367
00:34:32,112 --> 00:34:37,412
they can kind of arrange amongst themselves how to curate some rules.

368
00:34:37,632 --> 00:34:42,152
Because you might need some rules to contain negative externalities.

369
00:34:42,152 --> 00:34:44,792
but then you also should

370
00:34:44,792 --> 00:34:46,992
be proposing a kind of free

371
00:34:46,992 --> 00:34:49,032
for all where you come with

372
00:34:49,032 --> 00:34:50,892
the risk, I'm placing something

373
00:34:50,892 --> 00:34:52,912
here, I'm unrestrained but

374
00:34:52,912 --> 00:34:55,072
I therefore cannot control what happens next to me

375
00:34:55,072 --> 00:34:57,152
but I would trust that somebody

376
00:34:57,152 --> 00:34:58,812
next to me might

377
00:34:58,812 --> 00:35:00,972
be here because they

378
00:35:00,972 --> 00:35:02,852
want to have something to do with us so we'll be

379
00:35:02,852 --> 00:35:05,172
synergetic but you can't

380
00:35:05,172 --> 00:35:07,052
predict so there's a bit of more

381
00:35:07,052 --> 00:35:08,932
risk but also more opportunity in the free

382
00:35:08,932 --> 00:35:10,412
for all so I was

383
00:35:10,412 --> 00:35:14,432
opting for a kind of mixture of regimes in parallel,

384
00:35:15,712 --> 00:35:19,252
a central curated where the managers and owners,

385
00:35:19,252 --> 00:35:24,732
let's say the free cities investors,

386
00:35:25,332 --> 00:35:26,252
make propositions.

387
00:35:27,172 --> 00:35:31,152
And it is more predictable that you come in here

388
00:35:31,152 --> 00:35:32,852
and we were roughly in this environment.

389
00:35:33,532 --> 00:35:35,052
But then, of course, you also rely on the fact

390
00:35:35,052 --> 00:35:40,532
that it is being filled out by the planned kind of functions.

391
00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:42,692
And you wanted to say there will be a conference here,

392
00:35:42,732 --> 00:35:45,312
you have to actually find somebody who's hosting conferences,

393
00:35:45,552 --> 00:35:48,212
unless the city developer wants it himself

394
00:35:48,212 --> 00:35:51,212
to become a conferencing company or exhibition company.

395
00:35:51,492 --> 00:35:52,832
So there's the pros and cons.

396
00:35:53,172 --> 00:35:54,452
And the way we looked at it,

397
00:35:54,512 --> 00:35:56,912
we're saying we start on three or four fronts simultaneously,

398
00:35:57,312 --> 00:35:59,252
and then let's see what catches on.

399
00:35:59,252 --> 00:36:06,732
and then remain agile to adapt as we go along.

400
00:36:06,892 --> 00:36:09,432
So, yeah, it's definitely something which you can't do overnight.

401
00:36:09,792 --> 00:36:12,392
What is very important, though, is that you start with a critical mass.

402
00:36:13,732 --> 00:36:17,832
Everybody waits for everybody else to be there to have the network starting.

403
00:36:17,832 --> 00:36:20,972
So the network effects, like with any company which relies on network effects,

404
00:36:21,072 --> 00:36:22,852
a city is relying on it.

405
00:36:23,112 --> 00:36:25,492
The difficulty is to kind of bootstrap that out of nothing,

406
00:36:26,292 --> 00:36:27,792
particularly in a remote location.

407
00:36:27,792 --> 00:36:34,692
So that's why I think it's very important to have things like a metaverse version or to build a community ahead of settling.

408
00:36:35,052 --> 00:36:39,672
So there's relations, there's expectations, there's plans that have been shared and recycled.

409
00:36:40,112 --> 00:36:48,912
And we developed this tool of a co-creation virtually, a digital twin evolving, which you can already use for communications, for conferences like Liberland.

410
00:36:48,992 --> 00:36:52,852
The Liberland metaverse, for instance, played that role and wanted to play that role.

411
00:36:52,852 --> 00:36:58,132
and I think that's important because the difficulty is as I said yes it will always

412
00:36:58,132 --> 00:37:08,392
start relatively small but it has to be kind of rapidly grow to a certain extent that you're not

413
00:37:08,392 --> 00:37:14,372
isolated I mean the good aspect is that you also can be plugged in into a telecommunication network

414
00:37:14,372 --> 00:37:19,712
but you also want to have things happening at site and even if it's just to share certain

415
00:37:19,712 --> 00:37:24,112
facilities but also to have collaborators. So that's why I also thought it's important to try

416
00:37:24,832 --> 00:37:33,472
in the curation to target certain industries first where you feel and you know when you open

417
00:37:33,472 --> 00:37:39,072
a new building the same you can say I'm calling this a media center because I wanted to not

418
00:37:39,072 --> 00:37:43,792
randomly have any tenants which have nothing to do with each other. I want media companies here.

419
00:37:43,792 --> 00:37:47,392
So you have to play a little bit. I want to kind of reserve these for media companies,

420
00:37:47,392 --> 00:37:50,452
try to find and bring some media companies.

421
00:37:50,632 --> 00:37:52,312
That will then bring other media companies.

422
00:37:52,752 --> 00:37:55,352
And then you have something, you don't need to be very large

423
00:37:55,352 --> 00:37:57,872
to have critical mass of co-location and synergy.

424
00:37:58,472 --> 00:38:00,392
That's, I think, a strategy which I would emphasize.

425
00:38:00,912 --> 00:38:03,812
You need to kind of niche or have some kind of,

426
00:38:04,492 --> 00:38:08,112
in the world division of labor, some kind of specialization

427
00:38:08,112 --> 00:38:12,012
so that you don't need to have, you have 10 different seats

428
00:38:12,012 --> 00:38:14,132
which each of them lacks critical mass.

429
00:38:14,132 --> 00:38:20,452
and the relevance of these to each other is insufficiently strong.

430
00:38:20,652 --> 00:38:22,232
So that's the tough task.

431
00:38:22,232 --> 00:38:27,232
And sometimes you have to hold a little bit longer rather than giving up too quickly

432
00:38:27,232 --> 00:38:30,872
and it becomes a kind of random sampling of anybody who somehow feels too.

433
00:38:31,932 --> 00:38:37,632
Of course, so that's the kind of thing which I think Prosper has been doing that

434
00:38:37,632 --> 00:38:44,072
with respect to, for instance, crypto and certain things which make sense there.

435
00:38:44,132 --> 00:38:50,092
like innovative health tourism and health innovations.

436
00:38:51,252 --> 00:38:56,952
So I think that's important and that's the entrepreneurial task

437
00:38:56,952 --> 00:39:02,352
and we are very alert to that and we then help to support that as architects.

438
00:39:02,472 --> 00:39:04,272
We're not writing these briefs and programs.

439
00:39:05,392 --> 00:39:09,752
But I would highly recommend your point is very true that it will have to emerge

440
00:39:09,752 --> 00:39:15,972
and if for instance the health tourism takes are much more than the crypto which might have

441
00:39:15,972 --> 00:39:25,392
different requirements then then you need to also be able to pivot or recalibrate the priorities

442
00:39:25,392 --> 00:39:30,912
and let this emerge because we know blueprints into the long future

443
00:39:30,912 --> 00:39:38,232
are vulnerable particularly in such dynamic times. I'd like to take a couple of minutes

444
00:39:38,232 --> 00:39:43,252
just to tell you about what I think is one of the most interesting real-world freedom projects that

445
00:39:43,252 --> 00:39:47,672
we've come across recently. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you'll know that I'm

446
00:39:47,672 --> 00:39:53,052
always looking for things that actually exist, not the concepts, not the renderings, but real projects

447
00:39:53,052 --> 00:39:58,572
where people are already building the future. And this brings me to the Reef Resort, developed by

448
00:39:58,572 --> 00:40:04,212
the seasteading company ArcPad, founded of course by Mitchell Suchner, who many of you will remember

449
00:40:04,212 --> 00:40:08,932
was the winner of the Innovation Award at the 2025 Free Cities Conference.

450
00:40:09,352 --> 00:40:14,312
The Reef Resort, as far as we're aware, is the world's first operational seasteading resort.

451
00:40:14,572 --> 00:40:19,912
It's located just off the coast of Samal Island in the Philippines, where ArcPad currently operates.

452
00:40:20,132 --> 00:40:24,152
14 floating units available through Airbnb and other platforms,

453
00:40:24,152 --> 00:40:30,372
a project that has already hosted thousands of guests in both their accommodation and floating restaurant.

454
00:40:30,372 --> 00:40:35,412
now. Here's the development that will be especially interesting to listeners of this podcast.

455
00:40:35,732 --> 00:40:41,692
ArcPad is planning a second reef resort, this time off the coast of Prospera in Honduras,

456
00:40:41,872 --> 00:40:46,632
one of the most important Free Cities projects in the world. And construction is intended to

457
00:40:46,632 --> 00:40:52,532
align with the 2026 Free Cities Conference. So this is where the opportunity comes for you.

458
00:40:52,712 --> 00:40:58,352
You can now pre-purchase ownership in the Prospera Reef Resort. Ownership is available either outright

459
00:40:58,352 --> 00:41:04,072
or through fractional shares, allowing you to purchase from as little as 1% up to full ownership.

460
00:41:04,412 --> 00:41:09,032
Your ownership percentage determines your usage rights, your share of rental income from the

461
00:41:09,032 --> 00:41:14,292
eco-resort operations and your voting power in property decisions. This also gives you the

462
00:41:14,292 --> 00:41:19,532
opportunity, of course, to be part of a pioneering ocean-based development within the Free Cities

463
00:41:19,532 --> 00:41:25,892
ecosystem. Full units at the Prospera site start from $95,000, but with fractional ownership

464
00:41:25,892 --> 00:41:31,332
available you can participate at whatever level suits you if you'd like to explore this opportunity

465
00:41:31,332 --> 00:41:45,630
i included a link in the show notes where you can register your interest and access the pre information if you interested in free cities frontier living and the future of ocean communities then this is a chance to get involved at the

466
00:41:45,630 --> 00:41:52,530
ground floor. Seasteading is no longer just an idea. It's happening and now it's coming to prospera.

467
00:41:54,410 --> 00:42:02,030
So is it fair to say you still design using parametricism?

468
00:42:02,030 --> 00:42:08,070
Oh, yeah. Right. So is there is there a specific visual language to it then?

469
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:18,310
Because when I think about at least my sort of limited knowledge of Zaha D buildings is, oh, they all look, they've all got that look, which is a parametricism look.

470
00:42:19,230 --> 00:42:22,650
So so does that mean a free city needs a specific architectural language?

471
00:42:23,410 --> 00:42:30,130
I what I think a lot of people appreciate, first of all, yes, because the look is not the immediate intent.

472
00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:37,910
the look is an outcome of a rational and adaptive process and it's not this interesting you can

473
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:43,170
recognize it but it's at the same time more versatile than all the other styles put together

474
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:50,310
it's a bit like you always will recognize whether a form is an organic form let's say or a natural

475
00:42:50,310 --> 00:42:58,510
form inorganic or organic rather than a mechanical form right even though the there's so many

476
00:42:58,510 --> 00:43:03,910
different natural emerged forms like inorganic or organic nature,

477
00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:09,410
you recognize this isn't an invented mechanical piece of equipment.

478
00:43:10,690 --> 00:43:14,510
So that's sometimes the puzzle where people think,

479
00:43:14,610 --> 00:43:17,330
oh, it's recognizable, that's why it's in inverted commas all the same,

480
00:43:17,370 --> 00:43:19,790
on a very abstract level, it is all the same, it remains recognizable,

481
00:43:19,790 --> 00:43:22,330
but it's like the infinite forms of nature.

482
00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:26,290
So it's much more versatile and rich in variation,

483
00:43:26,290 --> 00:43:34,870
although recognizable it has one label and it's not actually recognizable as zaha deed

484
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:43,010
not to the extent i would say then i wouldn't be proud of that recognized as parametricism

485
00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:47,750
i'm proud of that it should be and there are many others who coming in since we're such a

486
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:52,930
dominant mothership of this movement in terms of the large-scale operation will consistently work

487
00:43:52,930 --> 00:43:59,770
that. It is often kind of conflated and associated. But there are many other authors. And some of the

488
00:43:59,770 --> 00:44:07,890
major corporations also author projects like this, but not consistently. So I would say, yes, there

489
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:14,570
is a language in the in the in the broadest sense. And also, it means that it gives a certain identity

490
00:44:14,570 --> 00:44:16,070
to a place.

491
00:44:16,490 --> 00:44:17,910
So what people dislike today

492
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:20,930
is that there seems to be

493
00:44:20,930 --> 00:44:22,750
a lack of identity

494
00:44:22,750 --> 00:44:23,830
in different places.

495
00:44:24,010 --> 00:44:25,350
They all start to look the same,

496
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:26,390
but if you look closely,

497
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:27,050
it's not the same,

498
00:44:27,150 --> 00:44:30,630
but you can't get the gist

499
00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:31,930
or essence of the place.

500
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:34,670
I call that garbage spill urbanization.

501
00:44:35,310 --> 00:44:36,870
If you spill out various

502
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:39,350
cans of trash,

503
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:41,790
they all have

504
00:44:41,790 --> 00:44:43,270
quite different ingredients.

505
00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:47,910
But as a field of trash, they all look the same.

506
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:50,230
Because it is amorphous.

507
00:44:50,330 --> 00:44:54,790
It has no form, shape, order, logic you can hook onto.

508
00:44:55,230 --> 00:45:00,490
Even though the one has a Coke can and a milk carton and a crumbled paper,

509
00:45:00,690 --> 00:45:07,810
and this one has plastic pieces and no Coke, but smashed glass bottles.

510
00:45:07,810 --> 00:45:20,490
Because in the end, we respond to them, well, it's all equally white noise, disorder.

511
00:45:20,490 --> 00:45:28,070
And so that is where we have to a bit reflect what we think is sameness, what is difference.

512
00:45:28,530 --> 00:45:29,570
And we crave for identity.

513
00:45:29,710 --> 00:45:34,210
And with parametricism, it's very clear that we can build up, not preconceived,

514
00:45:34,210 --> 00:45:38,190
every town would evolve in a past-dependent way

515
00:45:38,190 --> 00:45:39,970
because it starts with certain conditions,

516
00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:42,430
certain materials, certain climatic conditions.

517
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:45,150
There's something which gives it a particular identity.

518
00:45:45,810 --> 00:45:47,410
And if you work in paramedicine,

519
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:51,790
you're meant to affiliate as things come together

520
00:45:51,790 --> 00:45:54,450
because they want it to be together.

521
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:57,990
And they have a certain look and feel and sets of relations.

522
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:59,430
This builds up.

523
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:02,010
And this might also include ingredients which were there.

524
00:46:02,010 --> 00:46:14,510
You know, whether it was a valley, a river, an island, whether it's tropic climate or Nordic climate, all of these parameters and aspects will imprint.

525
00:46:14,510 --> 00:46:18,270
So you end up with recognizable places.

526
00:46:18,650 --> 00:46:30,110
Very similar, in a way, to the vernacular, where you had to, through the constraints and parameters and with less blueprinting, but evolving village forms, town forms.

527
00:46:30,110 --> 00:46:34,510
often they're concentric, not because somebody invented a concentric plan, because you start with

528
00:46:34,510 --> 00:46:39,550
some kind of fortification and then the first ring of houses around that, second ring, third ring,

529
00:46:40,510 --> 00:46:47,150
and then the whole thing is kind of locked onto a river on one side, so it has this asymmetry and

530
00:46:47,150 --> 00:46:54,110
orientation to one side. So these things evolve and in a way that's, parametriism does it too. So

531
00:46:54,110 --> 00:46:59,590
So the vernacular kind of settlement structures, they have not been planned, they are crew,

532
00:46:59,590 --> 00:47:09,670
but they have character and logic because there are certain regular parameters which imprint themselves

533
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:14,670
and generate unity and the right variety relative to conditions.

534
00:47:15,210 --> 00:47:17,450
And that's the paradigm, of course, in today's world.

535
00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:23,130
We are operating on a different scale with more versatility,

536
00:47:23,130 --> 00:47:32,710
but the principle of let's say self-organization spontaneous order um is still there how does that

537
00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:37,930
fit in then i know in the free cities movement like titus is a good example there are a lot of

538
00:47:37,930 --> 00:47:44,150
people that idolize for example a european a beautiful european period city say something

539
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:53,670
yeah and i i know that a lot of people wish to create to sort of recreate that mainly but say

540
00:47:53,670 --> 00:48:01,330
base it around a square use use period vernacular you know and what what do you think about that so

541
00:48:01,330 --> 00:48:07,330
my response to this is they're quite right to if i the different environments we pervade

542
00:48:07,330 --> 00:48:13,490
that there's something, a sense of place, a sense of coherence,

543
00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:25,050
versus that jumble of incongruent buildings which have no rhyme, no reason, no correlation.

544
00:48:25,810 --> 00:48:29,870
Because in the current world, it is actually failing of our discipline,

545
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:35,410
but as well as the kind of randomness of a land use plan,

546
00:48:35,410 --> 00:48:41,750
where you have to build only can build this which is prescribed here

547
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:49,710
and there is no therefore no immediate synergies

548
00:48:49,710 --> 00:48:52,590
but also the planners prescribe too much

549
00:48:52,590 --> 00:49:00,410
so you can't articulate then architects try to bring their own kind of

550
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:02,970
relatively self-indulgent ideas

551
00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:04,810
and the discipline is quite fragmented

552
00:49:04,810 --> 00:49:07,850
I would also choose the historic city.

553
00:49:07,850 --> 00:49:15,990
As I said earlier, there's like the vernaculars, but also then the kind of later centuries where architecture was involved,

554
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:18,430
but mostly involved only in the primary buildings.

555
00:49:18,430 --> 00:49:22,770
And the bulk of the building was still kind of tradition-bound building vernacular.

556
00:49:22,770 --> 00:49:28,230
These are more lovely, more places with more identity.

557
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:34,130
And also, as I said, the convergence back to the historic centers, to the cities,

558
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:37,490
this kind of more dense life is also better adaptive now.

559
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:41,210
And also this idea of pedestrianized cities

560
00:49:41,210 --> 00:49:44,470
where you have to connect up and be in many places quickly

561
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:49,730
than the greenfield and mechanically mass-produced sleeping cities.

562
00:49:50,550 --> 00:49:52,230
So the intuition is right.

563
00:49:53,230 --> 00:50:05,448
And if you had to choose with what available either this kind of concrete mega building or the garbage spill cluster

564
00:50:06,048 --> 00:50:08,668
I also would choose the historic city and center.

565
00:50:08,788 --> 00:50:10,168
And that's where postmodernism started.

566
00:50:12,168 --> 00:50:18,368
But it also wouldn't be, if you now compare what we could deliver,

567
00:50:18,368 --> 00:50:25,808
a kind of spontaneous order which is more adaptive to the actual needs.

568
00:50:25,808 --> 00:50:29,928
Because with the historic center, you have preconceived elements.

569
00:50:30,528 --> 00:50:33,348
They're nicely ordered, they create a nice ensemble and city,

570
00:50:34,108 --> 00:50:36,048
but still the buildings are too small,

571
00:50:37,028 --> 00:50:40,528
the buildings didn't have enough variety between buildings,

572
00:50:40,928 --> 00:50:48,088
and we can deliver variety between buildings without collapsing into garbage.

573
00:50:48,368 --> 00:50:58,368
We can make larger variety but have gradual transformation from one type to another or make them similar in interesting ways.

574
00:50:58,948 --> 00:51:10,388
So basically, because the attraction is going to the best we've got, but we have something much better we can deliver.

575
00:51:10,988 --> 00:51:12,148
That's my response.

576
00:51:12,148 --> 00:51:20,188
And so is it so would you say, is it impossible for the two to live, to coexist in the same place?

577
00:51:20,308 --> 00:51:23,328
Oh, yes. I mean, look, I would when I would make a new place.

578
00:51:23,448 --> 00:51:28,268
I mean, we're also learning from some of those features of the historic city.

579
00:51:28,448 --> 00:51:38,908
For instance, the focus on the on the void spaces, on the plazas and places and streets as spaces rather than only at the buildings and the in between has no shape.

580
00:51:38,908 --> 00:51:44,368
No, we also want to shape the space, the urban space, and not only the buildings as object.

581
00:51:44,608 --> 00:51:51,168
And sometimes the buildings as object have to retrieve, retreat into a framing surface to focus on the space.

582
00:51:51,568 --> 00:51:52,708
There's lessons we can learn.

583
00:51:53,568 --> 00:52:02,208
Also, the variety and the different types of cities are more monumental and more intricate with small alleys and small surprising plazas.

584
00:52:02,548 --> 00:52:03,908
And we can learn from that.

585
00:52:04,428 --> 00:52:07,128
But again, as I said, maybe we have to do it on a different scale.

586
00:52:07,128 --> 00:52:08,468
We have to do it with more variety.

587
00:52:08,908 --> 00:52:12,668
So there's no lack of learning and that was the whole period of postmodernism was about.

588
00:52:15,468 --> 00:52:19,788
I wouldn't recite, I mean, but there's things like lodgers,

589
00:52:21,388 --> 00:52:29,548
where you have between the street surface in the outdoor and the indoor, you have uncovered buffer

590
00:52:29,548 --> 00:52:34,748
zone, for instance. Features like this we can pick up on and when we did the City for Praxis,

591
00:52:34,748 --> 00:52:36,568
we have in Italy and Sicily.

592
00:52:37,388 --> 00:52:38,508
You also learn, you know,

593
00:52:38,548 --> 00:52:40,328
some of the features of the historical buildings,

594
00:52:40,808 --> 00:52:42,928
they are better adapted to climatic conditions.

595
00:52:43,268 --> 00:52:44,248
In the modernist period,

596
00:52:44,368 --> 00:52:47,548
we could just kind of do a glass box everywhere

597
00:52:47,548 --> 00:52:52,568
and inject mechanical power to heat or cool,

598
00:52:53,188 --> 00:52:55,928
whereas in the traditional architecture,

599
00:52:55,928 --> 00:52:58,508
you had to be more,

600
00:52:58,508 --> 00:53:07,228
you could you had to try to develop comfortable conditions without having mechanical

601
00:53:07,228 --> 00:53:12,028
burning through huge energy because you couldn't do that so you make things like

602
00:53:14,508 --> 00:53:25,228
um wind towers to ventilate out the heat you have shading covered place shades make the streets very

603
00:53:25,228 --> 00:53:34,348
narrow because they're shaded, self-shading and all the things we in the modernist period,

604
00:53:34,988 --> 00:53:42,428
a lot of these subtleties, adaptive subtleties were kind of left behind, not required. Now with the

605
00:53:42,428 --> 00:53:47,868
sustainability conscientiousness they're coming back but also they give character and identity

606
00:53:48,508 --> 00:53:52,828
and therefore you know in different climates where you are. In the tropical you have always

607
00:53:52,828 --> 00:54:01,468
these kind of roofs roof overhangs and oftentimes you don't even have enclosure you're not in closed

608
00:54:01,468 --> 00:54:07,948
spaces you're just covered and that because the wind whatever wind there is should breathe through

609
00:54:07,948 --> 00:54:14,828
freely and so we can work with these conditions but now on a different scale on a and and combine

610
00:54:14,828 --> 00:54:21,308
them with with different requirements so it is it is understood that there's this kind of draw

611
00:54:21,308 --> 00:54:27,928
being drawn to these oldest patterns and we can integrate them so I have this

612
00:54:27,928 --> 00:54:31,968
research paradigm learning from the vernaculars because we can learn how

613
00:54:31,968 --> 00:54:35,768
because there was been hundreds and thousands of years sometimes of of kind

614
00:54:35,768 --> 00:54:42,748
of incremental adaptation to climatic conditions and it's a bit like the

615
00:54:42,748 --> 00:54:50,588
biomimetic research where engineering solutions go out into nature because a

616
00:54:50,588 --> 00:54:55,468
A lot of organisms have developed intricate and surprising solutions to problems,

617
00:54:55,808 --> 00:54:57,328
which we can learn from.

618
00:54:57,448 --> 00:54:59,688
And similarly, I would argue, we're learning from the vernaculars

619
00:54:59,688 --> 00:55:01,828
and the historical architecture.

620
00:55:03,748 --> 00:55:06,888
Because we have to relearn it, because these were intuitively discovered

621
00:55:06,888 --> 00:55:12,588
through trial and error, and they're not written scientific analyses.

622
00:55:13,588 --> 00:55:15,568
But of course, we can't take it over one-to-one,

623
00:55:15,568 --> 00:55:18,128
because as I said, we have slightly different requirements now,

624
00:55:18,448 --> 00:55:19,728
particularly on this level of scale.

625
00:55:19,728 --> 00:55:46,628
But I feel, I think, and the responses we get with our work is that we, the kind of love and sense of comfort and energy people get when they walk into a historical city, we can solicit a similar response with our buildings and cities.

626
00:55:46,628 --> 00:56:00,288
Does parametricism ever come up with like columns, for example, or it does produce, because obviously they were solutions to problems from a natural scenario as well.

627
00:56:00,328 --> 00:56:02,108
The human mind is a natural scenario, isn't it?

628
00:56:02,128 --> 00:56:04,348
It's like, okay, we want a slanting roof.

629
00:56:04,428 --> 00:56:05,208
We want an overhang, right?

630
00:56:05,228 --> 00:56:06,328
We need to prop it up with something.

631
00:56:06,468 --> 00:56:08,168
We work with slanted rooms.

632
00:56:08,368 --> 00:56:08,788
There's drainage.

633
00:56:09,388 --> 00:56:12,148
There's also vaulting, a lot of vaulting.

634
00:56:12,148 --> 00:56:21,568
And the interesting thing is that when we do vaulting, in the old days, it was only possible if you have a full symmetrical condition.

635
00:56:22,228 --> 00:56:26,548
Because if you vault, you have the forces, you rely on equilibrium.

636
00:56:27,548 --> 00:56:36,508
If it is more of a freer form, an irregular form, then, for instance, traditionally they wouldn't know how to equilibrate this.

637
00:56:36,648 --> 00:56:41,648
And you have differential settlements, you wouldn't know how to dimension the foundation, the whole thing would crack up.

638
00:56:42,148 --> 00:56:48,888
Now we can use walls and we can make them more adaptive to

639
00:56:50,648 --> 00:56:56,188
site conditions, to the requirements of spaces and rooms. We don't need repetition and

640
00:56:57,208 --> 00:56:59,208
symmetry to the same extent.

641
00:57:00,768 --> 00:57:02,928
But we like walls. Walls are very efficient.

642
00:57:05,208 --> 00:57:08,708
Because everything is in compression and material is much stronger in compression.

643
00:57:08,708 --> 00:57:12,688
And so we have, that's contemporary research.

644
00:57:12,908 --> 00:57:16,968
So parametriism moved on to what I call tectonism, which is still parametricism,

645
00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:27,248
but it is absorbing many more, let's say, engineering, computational engineering logics and science,

646
00:57:27,608 --> 00:57:30,288
and more subtly integrate that as well.

647
00:57:30,288 --> 00:57:38,688
And these are often nice logics because they bring out typical forms which have a coherency.

648
00:57:39,908 --> 00:57:44,448
And also they relate back in a lovely way to some historical models.

649
00:57:44,608 --> 00:57:49,228
For instance, they have a vault and when you place the stones, there's a certain pattern.

650
00:57:50,088 --> 00:57:54,628
Or if you have kind of reticulations or ribs like in the Gothic vaults,

651
00:57:55,628 --> 00:58:00,148
this is actually quite efficient to make the overall structure lighter.

652
00:58:00,288 --> 00:58:05,288
but still equally stiff, and these ribs pick up a certain pattern

653
00:58:05,288 --> 00:58:09,788
and nearly give a kind of ornamental character to the space.

654
00:58:09,788 --> 00:58:12,788
So when we, in the stage of tectonism,

655
00:58:12,788 --> 00:58:23,626
affiliates even becomes even more akin to traditional structures Because what connects them is this idea of a

656
00:58:25,386 --> 00:58:32,026
adaptive discovery process except that now we have more degrees of freedom and versatility

657
00:58:32,666 --> 00:58:36,746
and they had there are more constraints in the old days but you know the gothic

658
00:58:36,746 --> 00:58:43,946
cathedral is a wonderful structure and the ribbing pattern is beautiful and but the the

659
00:58:43,946 --> 00:58:52,186
the bays repeat. So you're constrained to that. What if your church opens up and each bay and ribbing

660
00:58:52,186 --> 00:59:00,346
becomes larger and the profiles become deeper and the columns therefore become heavier,

661
00:59:00,346 --> 00:59:06,346
the forces become to the outside become larger. That's the way we would do it. So we have this kind of...

662
00:59:06,346 --> 00:59:13,226
And when you look back at a project like this you see ah, it's as beautiful, maybe perhaps more beautiful

663
00:59:13,226 --> 00:59:19,706
than the gothic because you can see the more intricate adaptive structure. The organism is

664
00:59:19,706 --> 00:59:27,466
more complex. If you compare a worm to a snake, the worm has an elegant form but it's segments.

665
00:59:27,466 --> 00:59:34,266
You don't know where's the front, where's the back, top, bottom. And the snake has this kind of

666
00:59:34,266 --> 00:59:38,826
nice tessellation which is very different on the bottom, the sides, the top.

667
00:59:38,826 --> 00:59:46,566
there is a front, the back and there's more intricacy and also superiority.

668
00:59:46,566 --> 00:59:52,006
You know, if you put the snake into a contest with the worm, we know who wins.

669
00:59:52,006 --> 00:59:59,206
And that's the way I would compare a more simple version of an architecture and a more sophisticated one.

670
00:59:59,206 --> 01:00:03,326
It looks the way it looks because it adapts better and is more optimized.

671
01:00:03,326 --> 01:00:08,706
For instance, if you look at the traditional walls and arches, they're semicircles.

672
01:00:08,706 --> 01:00:10,986
It's easier to install.

673
01:00:12,086 --> 01:00:20,506
But a parabolaid arc, inverted commas, not an arc, form is a much more optimized form.

674
01:00:21,426 --> 01:00:21,986
Really?

675
01:00:22,286 --> 01:00:22,646
Yes.

676
01:00:22,826 --> 01:00:24,786
But it's not symmetrical?

677
01:00:24,786 --> 01:00:26,246
The semicircle has problems.

678
01:00:26,826 --> 01:00:27,506
It's easier to make.

679
01:00:27,506 --> 01:00:30,766
That's why the compromise is then the kind of pointed arch.

680
01:00:32,426 --> 01:00:35,066
If you go from the semicircle arch to the pointed arch,

681
01:00:35,126 --> 01:00:37,286
you approximate more closely the parabuloid.

682
01:00:38,246 --> 01:00:40,426
But it's still not the optimal form.

683
01:00:41,006 --> 01:00:43,626
You find the optimal form if you take a chain and you hang it,

684
01:00:44,266 --> 01:00:46,666
and then you invert it.

685
01:00:46,666 --> 01:00:47,346
Okay, right.

686
01:00:47,346 --> 01:00:48,826
And that's not a semicircle.

687
01:00:49,286 --> 01:00:51,906
So we work with these more optimal forms.

688
01:00:52,446 --> 01:00:55,386
Now, they have a subtle, more elegance.

689
01:00:55,386 --> 01:01:01,806
You know, they're more optimized and they're more subtle.

690
01:01:02,406 --> 01:01:03,426
They're very coherent.

691
01:01:03,746 --> 01:01:04,926
They're mathematically organized.

692
01:01:05,066 --> 01:01:06,506
The physics generates them.

693
01:01:07,486 --> 01:01:13,686
And we are not hampered by the restrictions of the builders

694
01:01:13,686 --> 01:01:16,466
who might have been able to do a parabuloid,

695
01:01:16,546 --> 01:01:18,846
but it was also not, you know, how do you draw that?

696
01:01:19,486 --> 01:01:21,366
The semicircle, you just have a compass.

697
01:01:21,786 --> 01:01:22,226
They didn't know.

698
01:01:22,226 --> 01:01:28,266
And also, in the semicircle, you can make each of the stones the same in the paraboloid.

699
01:01:28,466 --> 01:01:32,366
The angle keeps changing, it's harder, and so on and so forth.

700
01:01:32,606 --> 01:01:36,426
So that's where we have this kind of, we're moving from the worm to the snake.

701
01:01:38,206 --> 01:01:40,746
But when you look back at the coherent design,

702
01:01:40,746 --> 01:01:46,566
there is this kind of Sagrada Familia, or the work of Gaudi in some of his later works,

703
01:01:47,166 --> 01:01:49,806
which has this character of the more sophisticated.

704
01:01:49,806 --> 01:01:53,366
you have to imagine stripping down all the ornament and crustaceans

705
01:01:53,366 --> 01:01:55,726
these are more sophisticated versions

706
01:01:55,726 --> 01:02:00,406
of let's say kind of basilica form

707
01:02:00,406 --> 01:02:02,586
already the first glimpses

708
01:02:02,586 --> 01:02:05,786
I'm going to go ahead and assume

709
01:02:05,786 --> 01:02:11,566
that you're using AI in a large way now

710
01:02:11,566 --> 01:02:14,146
and it must be an incredibly exciting prospect

711
01:02:14,146 --> 01:02:17,686
I mean I use it in a very simple way

712
01:02:17,686 --> 01:02:19,406
and it blows my mind continuously

713
01:02:19,406 --> 01:02:29,866
but in parametricism it must be the just unbelievable because and in fact um it must be

714
01:02:29,866 --> 01:02:38,666
working faster than than the whole office could work on this idea of emergent designs

715
01:02:38,666 --> 01:02:45,186
well yes there are different types of ai let's say of course we worked with um algorithmic and

716
01:02:45,186 --> 01:02:48,426
computational design, that was the biggest revolution.

717
01:02:48,426 --> 01:02:52,866
But what you can, and we had a lot of tools

718
01:02:52,866 --> 01:02:57,546
of form finding, the kind of physics simulations,

719
01:02:57,546 --> 01:02:59,726
as I said, the chain model inverted,

720
01:02:59,726 --> 01:03:01,006
but not only in the simple arc,

721
01:03:01,006 --> 01:03:03,446
a three-dimensional chain network.

722
01:03:03,446 --> 01:03:04,286
So we had all this.

723
01:03:04,286 --> 01:03:06,846
Now, when it comes to AI, the image AI,

724
01:03:06,846 --> 01:03:09,486
everybody was so excited about that part.

725
01:03:09,486 --> 01:03:13,026
Yes, you can accelerate, but you rely on the body of work

726
01:03:13,026 --> 01:03:14,946
to train up the AI.

727
01:03:14,946 --> 01:03:17,386
And some of the more sophisticated versions,

728
01:03:17,386 --> 01:03:18,626
which I call tectonism,

729
01:03:18,626 --> 01:03:22,246
there isn't enough out there for the AI to pick that up,

730
01:03:22,246 --> 01:03:25,726
but we have trained our own AI,

731
01:03:25,726 --> 01:03:29,146
feeding it with these examples,

732
01:03:29,146 --> 01:03:30,906
and then it can accelerate that.

733
01:03:30,906 --> 01:03:33,926
Yes, you can shortcut the form finding.

734
01:03:33,926 --> 01:03:35,506
And it is also lovely and creative,

735
01:03:35,506 --> 01:03:38,106
and you can interbreed different prompts

736
01:03:38,106 --> 01:03:40,286
and different references and images

737
01:03:40,286 --> 01:03:44,926
and allow it to kind of compose something more complex.

738
01:03:44,926 --> 01:03:48,026
But yes, it is relying on what has been out there.

739
01:03:49,206 --> 01:03:52,706
And so we also have to target and can train up the networks

740
01:03:52,706 --> 01:03:56,846
so that it can learn the most sophisticated versions.

741
01:03:57,446 --> 01:03:59,246
And then, of course, it speeds up enormously.

742
01:04:00,306 --> 01:04:06,086
Presumably, though, it can study nature in an infinite way.

743
01:04:06,086 --> 01:04:13,586
So in a way, there is a lot of un-mined data for producing parametricism.

744
01:04:13,586 --> 01:04:31,086
Absolutely. And an interesting way, if you step back superficially, it is really happening. If you Google AI and architecture, you can see where the desire is, what people would like to design and build. It's all parametricism, basically. 80% of it.

745
01:04:31,086 --> 01:04:36,406
in the real world you know the planning constraints the difficulty of the construction

746
01:04:36,406 --> 01:04:41,666
industry i mean our firm we're doing it but you need a bit of you still need a bit of a special

747
01:04:41,666 --> 01:04:48,766
occasion a slightly increased budget so um and then with all the constraints particularly in

748
01:04:48,766 --> 01:04:52,986
advanced countries where buildings should be inconspicuous there's always neighbors who

749
01:04:52,986 --> 01:04:58,686
complain there's always politicization so developers try to be as inconspicuous as possible

750
01:04:58,686 --> 01:05:02,686
So that hampers a little bit what is really happening.

751
01:05:03,406 --> 01:05:08,706
But what I love with the AI revolution is you can see where the desires are

752
01:05:08,706 --> 01:05:11,866
for all the young architects who play with that

753
01:05:11,866 --> 01:05:13,686
and all the amateur enthusiasts.

754
01:05:14,546 --> 01:05:19,546
They want something which looks much more like parametricism.

755
01:05:20,806 --> 01:05:22,406
So yes, that's very encouraging.

756
01:05:23,306 --> 01:05:27,426
But one also has to, you know, the shift from parametricism

757
01:05:27,426 --> 01:05:29,586
in this more sophisticated version of tectonism,

758
01:05:30,726 --> 01:05:35,606
requires higher coherency and rationality requirements,

759
01:05:35,606 --> 01:05:36,606
it's more particular.

760
01:05:37,426 --> 01:05:40,546
And yes, we can train it, but we have to train it.

761
01:05:41,206 --> 01:05:46,106
And you're quite right, you can also train it on natural formations.

762
01:05:47,106 --> 01:05:49,846
And that's just, yeah, it's very productive.

763
01:05:50,986 --> 01:05:54,726
But it's not an automatic because it relies so much on what you feed it with.

764
01:05:54,726 --> 01:06:06,826
And if you want something novel and different and we don't have enough to feed it with, then we have to first generate these samples to then let the network learn that.

765
01:06:06,886 --> 01:06:08,486
And that's what we're currently doing.

766
01:06:08,486 --> 01:06:25,086
I think that's my overarching experience with AI is that I often find myself using it to create a novel thing based on, you know, a series of parameters in a way.

767
01:06:25,246 --> 01:06:26,826
So it seems to be quite good at that.

768
01:06:26,826 --> 01:06:33,106
If you said, if you said like, you know, this is a bicycle and this is how you pedal it.

769
01:06:33,446 --> 01:06:37,646
Can you apply that to hot air balloons or something?

770
01:06:37,646 --> 01:06:39,966
It would know how to...

771
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:40,824
It's just sort of like...

772
01:06:40,824 --> 01:06:42,464
Yeah, I think it's surprisingly creative

773
01:06:42,464 --> 01:06:47,244
and also the result has coherency.

774
01:06:47,484 --> 01:06:49,444
I mean, when we first discovered it,

775
01:06:49,444 --> 01:06:50,524
it was also very exciting.

776
01:06:51,664 --> 01:06:54,264
There was a bit of development process up to this

777
01:06:54,264 --> 01:06:56,164
where you can see some potential,

778
01:06:56,284 --> 01:06:57,824
but the results were incoherent.

779
01:06:57,824 --> 01:07:01,924
The buildings were not properly sitting.

780
01:07:02,064 --> 01:07:03,244
The perspective wasn't right.

781
01:07:03,324 --> 01:07:04,544
The light and shadow wasn't right.

782
01:07:05,664 --> 01:07:07,204
But that has been overcome.

783
01:07:07,204 --> 01:07:19,284
So now you get a kind of something quite novel and different, but you can see it's a building, it sits, it has a good orientation, light and shadow play on it in incredible ways.

784
01:07:19,524 --> 01:07:25,364
So you look at it, you could actually model it, so it's a coherent, an image of a coherent object.

785
01:07:26,084 --> 01:07:33,244
Wonderful, but it does, it lacks, most of these still lack the coherency of the kinds of objects we're designing,

786
01:07:33,244 --> 01:07:40,784
which have then not where you have to get these curves and rhythms.

787
01:07:42,124 --> 01:07:47,144
There's more interacting, there are more coherency requirements

788
01:07:47,144 --> 01:07:55,024
which the models have, they don't have enough resource to reproduce.

789
01:07:55,884 --> 01:08:02,024
And that's where we at the moment, where we are generating these sample sets.

790
01:08:02,024 --> 01:08:06,184
and generating synthetic data actually

791
01:08:06,184 --> 01:08:09,804
through various optimization algorithms

792
01:08:09,804 --> 01:08:14,024
which are computationally burden heavy.

793
01:08:14,704 --> 01:08:18,184
But once we've trained up the model,

794
01:08:18,744 --> 01:08:25,624
we can reproduce these results quicker,

795
01:08:26,264 --> 01:08:29,244
maybe not with 100% accuracy,

796
01:08:29,244 --> 01:08:35,724
but good enough to use and discover and generate options.

797
01:08:36,264 --> 01:08:38,924
So that's definitely an accelerating machine,

798
01:08:39,184 --> 01:08:42,604
but it's also, as you said, a creativity machine

799
01:08:42,604 --> 01:08:45,604
because you can mix in prompts.

800
01:08:45,964 --> 01:08:51,964
We would say, for instance, let's take a kind of system

801
01:08:51,964 --> 01:09:03,484
of walls and tensile structures but inject the fluidity of some kind of a landscape formation.

802
01:09:05,964 --> 01:09:13,404
So the model on the feeding images of two or three character types which usually

803
01:09:14,524 --> 01:09:21,084
had so far been separate domains and this kind of meshing and hybridization

804
01:09:21,964 --> 01:09:25,604
is a very nice technique of innovation.

805
01:09:25,604 --> 01:09:27,864
Also in nature, it's kind of recombination.

806
01:09:29,884 --> 01:09:33,404
And we had that by hand, we often were thinking like this.

807
01:09:33,404 --> 01:09:35,544
This is a concept we discovered

808
01:09:35,544 --> 01:09:37,944
and worked that heavily in the 80s and 90s,

809
01:09:37,944 --> 01:09:41,284
what you call generating hybrids, chimeras.

810
01:09:45,484 --> 01:09:49,484
But to do that by hand

811
01:09:49,484 --> 01:09:56,544
it's kind of quite clumsy and difficult do you think that um parametricism or tectonism

812
01:09:56,544 --> 01:10:04,784
will be the the next period of architecture because i i when i think about ai and i think

813
01:10:04,784 --> 01:10:12,264
about technology being able to produce these yeah designs this is now a reality and it wasn't

814
01:10:12,264 --> 01:10:20,444
25 years ago and it never was in historically ever so presumably the world of architecture will

815
01:10:20,444 --> 01:10:26,724
converge on i hope so it should converge i mean it's best practice i'm sure of that

816
01:10:26,724 --> 01:10:31,784
it shows that we how we flourished and grown and how many competitions we win

817
01:10:31,784 --> 01:10:38,044
the competitors not necessarily have the facility don't have the the rigor the tools i mean it's

818
01:10:38,044 --> 01:10:44,024
is hard to build up. We've been able to do it because we have, for 30 years, I have a direct

819
01:10:44,024 --> 01:10:51,204
relationship with a post-professional 18-month degree here at the AA in London, Architectural

820
01:10:51,204 --> 01:10:57,464
Association School of Architecture. We had 15 years of working with teams and a masterclass in

821
01:10:57,464 --> 01:11:02,904
Vienna, Yale, Columbia University, Harvard University, and not only me, many of our staff

822
01:11:02,904 --> 01:11:04,864
teach, for instance, with the

823
01:11:04,864 --> 01:11:06,984
University College London.

824
01:11:07,664 --> 01:11:08,644
These are our kind of

825
01:11:08,644 --> 01:11:11,044
research department. We have internal

826
01:11:11,044 --> 01:11:13,104
research departments, which is very

827
01:11:13,104 --> 01:11:13,804
unusual for

828
01:11:13,804 --> 01:11:17,064
architectural firm, but we are on the

829
01:11:17,064 --> 01:11:19,044
large side of firms. So we have

830
01:11:19,044 --> 01:11:20,944
about 10% working in research,

831
01:11:21,724 --> 01:11:23,444
people who are doing PhDs

832
01:11:23,444 --> 01:11:25,064
and writing scientific paper and reading

833
01:11:25,064 --> 01:11:26,964
scientific papers to translate

834
01:11:26,964 --> 01:11:29,304
into new algorithms. So with that,

835
01:11:29,824 --> 01:11:30,724
it's not so easy

836
01:11:30,724 --> 01:11:32,424
for everybody

837
01:11:32,424 --> 01:11:40,184
to imitate but it becomes easier and easier there are a lot of tools where plugins are made available

838
01:11:40,184 --> 01:11:46,244
endless youtube tutorials students can pick this up so it's spreading that's very important

839
01:11:46,244 --> 01:11:52,164
there's ways of allowing many and nearly everybody to participate in these skills

840
01:11:52,164 --> 01:11:58,264
and now with ai making it even easier also to write plugins and scripts

841
01:11:58,264 --> 01:12:04,684
so easy now with Gemini to do a web app and have an algorithm you don't have to know how to code

842
01:12:04,684 --> 01:12:10,404
so that will help enormously I think to converge and it will also converge because

843
01:12:10,404 --> 01:12:17,344
we need a more open discourse and be more critical of each other but the let's say

844
01:12:17,344 --> 01:12:26,124
functional pragmatic benefits so you can use AI to make an organic form but the tectonism form

845
01:12:26,124 --> 01:12:27,504
would be optimal.

846
01:12:28,284 --> 01:12:32,184
The materiality, so if you do something less rationally,

847
01:12:32,904 --> 01:12:34,964
first of all, you look at it, it's difficult to,

848
01:12:35,184 --> 01:12:38,924
it looks a bit kind of odd and amorphous and arbitrary,

849
01:12:39,324 --> 01:12:41,264
and the one which is optimized, they get a sense of,

850
01:12:41,304 --> 01:12:45,604
ooh, this settles, it's varied, but it also has coherency,

851
01:12:45,764 --> 01:12:47,924
but also it's maybe the material costs,

852
01:12:48,784 --> 01:12:52,064
the amount of cement you need is maybe 50%.

853
01:12:52,064 --> 01:12:56,944
the steel you need, the reinforcement is maybe down to 20%.

854
01:12:56,944 --> 01:13:01,044
And eventually this will come out as cost advantages.

855
01:13:01,564 --> 01:13:04,564
So I think the convergence will happen through that.

856
01:13:04,884 --> 01:13:08,144
The engineering disciplines are also now much more aligned.

857
01:13:09,044 --> 01:13:12,224
If you do a beam and you do a straight extrusion,

858
01:13:13,344 --> 01:13:15,304
there is a lot of excess.

859
01:13:16,024 --> 01:13:17,284
You would have to perforate it.

860
01:13:17,464 --> 01:13:19,164
It should swell in the middle if it's in bending

861
01:13:19,164 --> 01:13:23,424
and thickening in another direction at the edges.

862
01:13:24,344 --> 01:13:30,264
And the extrusion is only rational as long as it's mass-produced.

863
01:13:30,864 --> 01:13:34,624
But if you anyway laser-cut and robotically weld the piece,

864
01:13:36,224 --> 01:13:37,664
do the optimized version.

865
01:13:38,324 --> 01:13:40,264
And that means some of these rectilinear,

866
01:13:40,344 --> 01:13:42,604
and if you then have a beam in a building,

867
01:13:42,604 --> 01:13:45,964
they should all be kind of subtly different.

868
01:13:45,964 --> 01:13:54,664
and it is more beautiful, it is more economic and I would think that therefore

869
01:13:54,664 --> 01:14:01,184
unless there are barriers to continuous rationalization

870
01:14:01,184 --> 01:14:10,704
like planning or like a dysfunctional discourse where people insist

871
01:14:10,704 --> 01:14:14,224
no don't tell me what to do, don't criticize me, I like what I like

872
01:14:14,224 --> 01:14:17,784
I mean, this kind of attitude, a bit backward attitude in our field oftentimes.

873
01:14:18,384 --> 01:14:26,864
If these barriers would come down and a more market process, driven market process would do that, you would have this convergence.

874
01:14:28,024 --> 01:14:43,344
It's just making me think, actually, that because, I mean, it's hard to gauge this, but a lot of people say AI is moving so fast that, you know, in five years time, there's all kinds of people predicting very crazy things in five years time.

875
01:14:43,344 --> 01:14:45,244
I don't know whether it's true or not. It's very hard to gauge.

876
01:14:45,364 --> 01:14:49,824
But when you apply that to design and architecture,

877
01:14:50,324 --> 01:14:54,004
you can imagine that in the not too distant future,

878
01:14:54,544 --> 01:15:05,782
a computer could come up with the perfectly optimized design for any situation could it well i mean we still need an author to take responsibility to you know we are becoming yes

879
01:15:05,782 --> 01:15:13,502
we are we are not the ones who execute and make a hundred individual decisions on any corner

880
01:15:13,502 --> 01:15:22,282
we set up systems we set up metrics criteria of selection and we explore a much more wider range

881
01:15:22,282 --> 01:15:28,282
of options this way and we evaluate these options through metrics, through comparisons,

882
01:15:28,282 --> 01:15:37,082
we have evolutionary algorithms, yes, but you need expert interlocutors,

883
01:15:38,122 --> 01:15:44,602
which also translate the requirements of a client of a site into which systems are relevant.

884
01:15:45,562 --> 01:15:52,202
What are the priority criteria? Which metrics and what range of metrics? Do we optimize to 99%?

885
01:15:52,282 --> 01:15:57,842
and therefore compromise a number of other factors or is 90% good?

886
01:15:57,842 --> 01:16:06,042
There's kind of, let's say, decreasing, let's say there's marginal utility to go from 95,

887
01:16:06,042 --> 01:16:13,402
it's no longer worth it. So these are judgment calls and the judgment calls have to come from

888
01:16:13,402 --> 01:16:19,042
people who know and have been working with these systems. So these systems are very important. I

889
01:16:19,042 --> 01:16:21,922
I don't even see that we have shrinking staff.

890
01:16:22,562 --> 01:16:25,902
Because if you think about, same with the computational revolution,

891
01:16:25,902 --> 01:16:30,162
our productivity per person has been monumentally increased,

892
01:16:30,702 --> 01:16:35,422
but it didn't go into reducing staff and reducing, let's say,

893
01:16:36,882 --> 01:16:39,742
design fees relative to construction budget.

894
01:16:40,562 --> 01:16:47,442
Because investing more in design means you have less cost in construction.

895
01:16:47,442 --> 01:16:52,982
because you can read out all the clashes, you can optimize further.

896
01:16:53,162 --> 01:16:54,482
And also in terms of the benefits.

897
01:16:54,622 --> 01:16:59,742
So if you think of a cascade, the final value of a building is its utility,

898
01:17:00,322 --> 01:17:03,062
the benefit, what it facilitates and allows for.

899
01:17:03,162 --> 01:17:06,842
So for instance, a company like us, we would always go for the better building.

900
01:17:06,842 --> 01:17:13,582
The cost of leasing a building in the overall cost equation of a service firm,

901
01:17:14,422 --> 01:17:17,142
financial or architectural, engineering, anything,

902
01:17:17,442 --> 01:17:19,442
is relatively marginal.

903
01:17:19,442 --> 01:17:23,502
The real cost is staff and salaries.

904
01:17:23,502 --> 01:17:26,242
So if we stuffed our people into a building,

905
01:17:26,242 --> 01:17:30,242
which means they don't see each other, don't interact,

906
01:17:31,742 --> 01:17:34,582
we're missing the point just to save some bucks.

907
01:17:34,582 --> 01:17:38,742
But that's, and the construction cost,

908
01:17:38,742 --> 01:17:43,242
therefore, if you develop something more beneficial,

909
01:17:43,242 --> 01:17:45,242
and we can demonstrate this,

910
01:17:45,242 --> 01:17:47,202
it's worthwhile investing more.

911
01:17:47,202 --> 01:17:52,882
But relative to fees, so construction costs can still grow relative to other costs.

912
01:17:55,322 --> 01:18:00,042
Particularly if land costs come down, then we have a huge land cost politically created.

913
01:18:00,662 --> 01:18:09,302
But the planning cost, the design cost relative to construction costs could also increase for the overall equation be more beneficial.

914
01:18:09,302 --> 01:18:18,442
It will be more economical to invest more in design, particularly if we now have new tools where we can do more.

915
01:18:18,782 --> 01:18:28,502
I mean, for instance, the decisions which we are making for our clients or the clients can make on a basis of way more secure, way more tested with many alternatives.

916
01:18:28,502 --> 01:18:35,582
We give them also way more opportunity to appreciate what they might be getting.

917
01:18:35,582 --> 01:18:40,622
photo realistic immersive environment they can see what they get they can imagine will that work

918
01:18:40,622 --> 01:18:46,622
won't that work they get a bim model where where everything is kind of counted and where we where

919
01:18:46,622 --> 01:18:52,622
we can kind of change per market and see the cost implications so the the more investment in the

920
01:18:52,622 --> 01:18:59,342
planning process as i said also less delays on site uh because things don't fit and you have to

921
01:18:59,342 --> 01:19:04,342
to de-build, to rebuild, clash detection.

922
01:19:04,662 --> 01:19:07,542
There's so many elements of the productivity gains

923
01:19:07,542 --> 01:19:09,422
where it's worthwhile, which leads in a way

924
01:19:09,422 --> 01:19:14,422
to more design always is better.

925
01:19:15,222 --> 01:19:19,902
But you also have to have more design,

926
01:19:19,902 --> 01:19:21,942
just to think of more design makes no sense.

927
01:19:21,942 --> 01:19:25,542
You have to have more opportunity to improve.

928
01:19:25,542 --> 01:19:27,222
And that's what these new systems bring.

929
01:19:27,222 --> 01:19:45,502
So I'm very confident that we won't see slashing of staff, but everybody much more productive for the benefit of the product and for the overall cost benefit and particular cost benefit equation of these products.

930
01:19:45,902 --> 01:19:54,362
Something I've noticed with AI is I've already got a kind of form of fatigue about it.

931
01:19:54,362 --> 01:19:54,982
I'll give you an example.

932
01:19:55,102 --> 01:19:58,322
Yesterday, my wife's doing a new website.

933
01:19:58,482 --> 01:20:00,722
She makes very high-end sort of upholstery things.

934
01:20:01,162 --> 01:20:02,122
And she's doing a new website.

935
01:20:02,222 --> 01:20:02,782
She showed me.

936
01:20:02,842 --> 01:20:03,462
She said, look at this.

937
01:20:03,482 --> 01:20:04,022
This is amazing.

938
01:20:04,142 --> 01:20:09,442
I can point it at one of my pillows and say, put that pillow in another scenario.

939
01:20:09,442 --> 01:20:10,662
And I get all these free pictures.

940
01:20:11,022 --> 01:20:13,302
And my instant thought is, be careful.

941
01:20:13,682 --> 01:20:15,342
Because so can everyone else.

942
01:20:15,702 --> 01:20:22,402
And when you're trying to make yourself slightly different, if you're aiming at a very high-end market,

943
01:20:22,402 --> 01:20:29,522
it there's going to be i think there's going to be a sort of a bit of a revolution against this

944
01:20:29,522 --> 01:20:34,222
kind of stuff because people are going to notice it i already notice it i notice it in an email now

945
01:20:34,222 --> 01:20:39,322
if i if i get a whiff of the fact that an email that's sent to me is ai i ignore it straight away

946
01:20:39,322 --> 01:20:44,982
because i'm thinking that's lazy so i'm not but but but sorry to bite into it but but in but in

947
01:20:44,982 --> 01:20:51,622
your line of work it's going to become a very very deeply intricate part of the design process

948
01:20:51,622 --> 01:20:59,122
especially in in tectonism and you run the risk i suppose of having this kind of sameness

949
01:20:59,122 --> 01:21:05,122
because the ai is gonna is gonna conclude it's gonna do exactly what you want and it's gonna

950
01:21:05,122 --> 01:21:09,302
do the same for everyone it's gonna do exactly i'll dispute and that's not my experience it's

951
01:21:09,302 --> 01:21:13,322
actually more versatile because the conditions are never the same every building is unique for

952
01:21:13,322 --> 01:21:20,722
this respect to place and purpose and the previous paradigms couldn't make it so they were relying

953
01:21:20,722 --> 01:21:27,282
more in repetition and then stuff it in anyway. So I don't see that. Yes, there is more coherency.

954
01:21:29,362 --> 01:21:34,162
It's a bit like they're all proper organisms. And before you had kind of

955
01:21:36,642 --> 01:21:43,282
defunct or ugly or semi-resolved organisms, but we still have, we will have the endless

956
01:21:43,282 --> 01:21:51,762
forms of nature. So I wouldn't see sameness because if you rigorously do that, there will be,

957
01:21:52,722 --> 01:21:57,002
and you have more choices for instance now with these new tools like Xfigura,

958
01:21:57,582 --> 01:22:04,982
you're not relying on one model. You have all the models and you can combine them into a network

959
01:22:04,982 --> 01:22:12,842
and for each thing you choose a different model and so you have more calibration and we're just

960
01:22:12,842 --> 01:22:18,482
at a meeting yesterday somebody else developing a tool called verso where you where you really

961
01:22:18,482 --> 01:22:25,942
design workflows and the designer gets much more ability to select models to chain models to loop

962
01:22:25,942 --> 01:22:34,022
back with metrics into new prompts and and the structured so it becomes more sophisticated so

963
01:22:34,022 --> 01:22:39,402
there's always a curve where we onto the next thing where others just getting familiar with

964
01:22:39,402 --> 01:22:45,402
what has been rolled out. So I'm not worried that we are kind of, it's healthy to have good

965
01:22:45,402 --> 01:22:49,962
competition and that these things are easy for everybody means we're moving on to the next stage

966
01:22:49,962 --> 01:22:55,062
and we don't be lazy. I don't think that fundamental principle of a competitive alertness

967
01:22:55,062 --> 01:23:02,722
and continuous innovation changes. It isn't that, yeah, the AI tools keep evolving,

968
01:23:03,142 --> 01:23:07,842
the way you work with them, deploy them. We also have proprietary, let's say, networks,

969
01:23:07,842 --> 01:23:09,842
which we're training.

970
01:23:09,842 --> 01:23:27,320
And so it a lovely continuous race and it does allow for now which I endorse younger firms and newcomers to break in and catch some of the markets

971
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:29,960
Now, their limitation is then in the realization.

972
01:23:30,980 --> 01:23:36,740
So they would then have to find somebody to, they can be in the front end, very competitive with us.

973
01:23:37,180 --> 01:23:39,440
In the downstream, they have no chance.

974
01:23:39,940 --> 01:23:43,400
We believe that we are more competitive even in the front end,

975
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:45,500
because here's a small team with three, four people.

976
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:48,360
Yes, they have the energy and they're young.

977
01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:49,280
They're just out of school.

978
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:50,060
They can do it.

979
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,420
But we have a research team of 15 people

980
01:23:52,420 --> 01:23:53,940
and they're also still very young

981
01:23:53,940 --> 01:23:55,660
and they have more resources

982
01:23:55,660 --> 01:23:59,500
and more stamina to focus on that.

983
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:03,300
So I think this is, I'm excited by it.

984
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:03,940
I'm not worried.

985
01:24:04,540 --> 01:24:06,060
We're at the head of the curve continuously

986
01:24:06,060 --> 01:24:06,980
and we'll stay so.

987
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:09,100
Last question.

988
01:24:09,300 --> 01:24:10,200
We'll wrap up soon.

989
01:24:10,300 --> 01:24:10,440
Sure.

990
01:24:10,440 --> 01:24:12,140
Bring it back to the three cities.

991
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:13,020
Yeah.

992
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:18,800
because you are the most well you're a very prominent architect in the free cities movement

993
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:26,580
you are there aren't many architects really but so i i'd love to hear your opinion on whether or

994
01:24:26,580 --> 01:24:38,980
not you think we need a um a kind of uh we need a uh like should you when you walk into a free city

995
01:24:38,980 --> 01:24:44,640
should you know it's a free city should you from from from the from the design of it should you

996
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:51,400
understand ah i'm in a free city and should that be something that free cities you know use and

997
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:57,660
connect with each other over because this isn't like this is a new well this is a new iteration

998
01:24:57,660 --> 01:25:02,640
certainly and it's a response to the old world as well it's a very good question i like this

999
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:08,700
question i think my intuition is to say yes because there's something they share which

1000
01:25:08,700 --> 01:25:13,700
which most places don't share.

1001
01:25:13,940 --> 01:25:17,840
They basically have more chance with the outcome

1002
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:22,840
of an intricate self-organization process

1003
01:25:23,100 --> 01:25:29,100
where degrees of freedom imply more degrees of rational choice

1004
01:25:29,100 --> 01:25:35,100
and proper articulation of interests and purposes and value.

1005
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:36,180
And that will come through.

1006
01:25:36,180 --> 01:25:41,540
And I think the parametricism-tectonism paradigm would come into play.

1007
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:49,800
But what we, in the real world elsewhere, it can't come into play sufficiently.

1008
01:25:50,460 --> 01:25:56,500
It comes into play in one plot and next door something else.

1009
01:25:56,960 --> 01:25:58,060
And that doesn't add up.

1010
01:25:58,380 --> 01:26:01,080
I mean, we have one exception, a very rare exception,

1011
01:26:01,260 --> 01:26:04,660
where we did a so-called unicorn island in Chengdu,

1012
01:26:04,660 --> 01:26:06,600
where we did about a million square meter

1013
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:12,040
and designed 25 buildings on different scales

1014
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,400
and different programs, including residential offices,

1015
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:15,520
public spaces.

1016
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:19,980
And that's the kind of thing with many talents.

1017
01:26:20,980 --> 01:26:23,200
That is unique and rare.

1018
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,360
But the private city could be like that,

1019
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,720
maybe even more diverse

1020
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:32,480
because there could be multiple authors coming in.

1021
01:26:32,480 --> 01:26:34,340
The point here would be that the authors,

1022
01:26:34,660 --> 01:26:36,420
the different architects will come into play.

1023
01:26:37,300 --> 01:26:39,500
There should be at least a subset.

1024
01:26:40,140 --> 01:26:44,020
They should be curated of being those who operate at the frontier of the field

1025
01:26:44,020 --> 01:26:46,160
and not a random selection.

1026
01:26:47,100 --> 01:26:48,660
That would be required.

1027
01:26:48,900 --> 01:26:51,000
If you make a random selection and you bring a minimalist

1028
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,940
and then you bring a postmodernist and then you bring a neoclassicist

1029
01:26:53,940 --> 01:26:57,780
and then you bring a high-tech person, you get a jumble sale.

1030
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:02,760
And that would make it indistinguishable from any other place.

1031
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:13,340
so that's what i i would feel so and and that means also that although the the the underlying

1032
01:27:13,340 --> 01:27:20,460
programmatic order might be intricate and synergetic you don't sense it because you

1033
01:27:20,460 --> 01:27:24,700
now have the high-tech building next to the the client of the high-tech building wanted to be

1034
01:27:24,700 --> 01:27:29,340
next the client of the neoclassical building and they are next to each other fair enough

1035
01:27:29,340 --> 01:27:34,680
but they wanted to be so close to each other and have things to do and things to share and maybe

1036
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:40,680
want to share space in front of them that you don't get a sense of and could you and could you

1037
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:50,420
marry a could you create two places one very much along parametricism lines another along a classical

1038
01:27:50,420 --> 01:27:58,660
layout but still you know observing some of the traditions of of a growing city could they still

1039
01:27:58,660 --> 01:28:01,420
Or would you still have the same understanding from that?

1040
01:28:01,500 --> 01:28:05,060
Well, you could have somebody who wanted to have a range of classical.

1041
01:28:05,940 --> 01:28:08,420
The problem is if you wanted to have a Renaissance,

1042
01:28:08,620 --> 01:28:10,420
let's say Baroque-style layout,

1043
01:28:10,740 --> 01:28:12,660
that was the first time you had these.

1044
01:28:12,980 --> 01:28:14,980
Let's say the Renaissance style with the ideal city.

1045
01:28:15,860 --> 01:28:17,860
They were pure geometric forms.

1046
01:28:20,420 --> 01:28:22,980
If you work like this,

1047
01:28:22,980 --> 01:28:29,740
then you end up with the problem of forcing everybody into a diagram.

1048
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:37,160
What might be more successful to have it more like evolve it like a medieval city

1049
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:42,020
which has more pliability and less preconceived structure.

1050
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:48,000
And there were the 19th century urbanists like Camillo de Cité

1051
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,480
who kind of described that and made that semi-conscious effort

1052
01:28:51,480 --> 01:28:54,560
to do something which has more this adaptiveness and variety.

1053
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,220
Something else I could imagine, and you will get a sense of coherence

1054
01:28:58,220 --> 01:29:00,560
and you get a sense of adaptive versatility.

1055
01:29:01,220 --> 01:29:06,080
The only issue I would have with that is that it's still the range of variety

1056
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:09,920
which this would probably lead to is more limited.

1057
01:29:12,060 --> 01:29:15,580
The range of scales you would allow to come in.

1058
01:29:15,660 --> 01:29:19,320
So then you end up, for instance, with somebody who wants to have a bigger building,

1059
01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:20,820
you end up where they

1060
01:29:20,820 --> 01:29:22,960
you have five, six buildings

1061
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:25,260
facade wise but internally they're all

1062
01:29:25,260 --> 01:29:27,140
connected. Now that's I find

1063
01:29:27,140 --> 01:29:28,560
slightly disorienting. It's a bit like

1064
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,240
the Beatles movie where they

1065
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:33,020
all walk into a terrace house

1066
01:29:33,020 --> 01:29:35,240
and then inside they have this huge

1067
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:36,800
connected pleasure land.

1068
01:29:37,260 --> 01:29:39,300
Now when you come from

1069
01:29:39,300 --> 01:29:41,120
the outside you don't notice that

1070
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:43,140
this is pleasure land and that

1071
01:29:43,140 --> 01:29:44,220
what I find is a kind of

1072
01:29:44,220 --> 01:29:46,720
legibility dysfunction

1073
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:49,140
and we could be more

1074
01:29:49,140 --> 01:29:52,140
you could have an equally coherent thing

1075
01:29:52,140 --> 01:29:54,040
but you would more realize

1076
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,200
and notice, it would become more transparent

1077
01:29:56,200 --> 01:29:57,680
what are the different

1078
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,200
conditions and players

1079
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:01,980
in your city but without

1080
01:30:01,980 --> 01:30:03,940
a sense of disjunction

1081
01:30:03,940 --> 01:30:04,960
that would be

1082
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:07,060
so I don't quite believe

1083
01:30:07,060 --> 01:30:08,660
I know that you know

1084
01:30:08,660 --> 01:30:11,180
people in the libertarian movement

1085
01:30:11,180 --> 01:30:13,240
and I explained it

1086
01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:15,920
I don't blame them for going for the historical

1087
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:17,800
models because they have

1088
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,720
that sense of place, identity, and coherence.

1089
01:30:21,540 --> 01:30:25,200
We have nothing else in the real world at this point to go for.

1090
01:30:26,060 --> 01:30:26,920
I suppose we're...

1091
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:29,540
But we have visions and we have models.

1092
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:35,020
Unicorn Island, it's a cluster beautifully on a lakefront

1093
01:30:35,020 --> 01:30:40,520
with startup companies.

1094
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:41,800
It's kind of incubated.

1095
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:43,060
It's called Unicorn Island.

1096
01:30:43,620 --> 01:30:46,400
This is a place where they're supposed to generate unicorns.

1097
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:49,000
And I would say it's a good approximation.

1098
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:51,320
It's a first approximation, a vision,

1099
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:52,680
and it errs on the side of being

1100
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:55,140
maybe overly integrated and coherent.

1101
01:30:55,140 --> 01:30:58,580
I mean, you say, but there's a lot of variation as well.

1102
01:30:58,580 --> 01:31:03,080
There's versatility and unity and a sense of place.

1103
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:04,180
So I could recommend it.

1104
01:31:04,180 --> 01:31:07,640
I would say, compare that to a historical place.

1105
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:09,860
What you find more exciting,

1106
01:31:09,860 --> 01:31:12,640
where you could project the kind of knowledge economy

1107
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:14,680
hub you wanted to create.

1108
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:20,160
And I would say, if anything, what I'm really envisioning is something where you get a bit more variety still,

1109
01:31:20,660 --> 01:31:23,140
particularly if you have to grow further, you would have.

1110
01:31:24,060 --> 01:31:27,000
And that would be a multi-author, what I call a multi-author ecology.

1111
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:32,900
Because also multi-entrepreneurial ecology, a synergy cluster,

1112
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:46,398
which forms and emerges through kind of spontaneous evolution which needs these also needs not only the entrepreneurial decisions

1113
01:31:46,518 --> 01:31:54,338
where to place and who to be next to and what internal offerings, but how do you articulate that and make that,

1114
01:31:54,818 --> 01:31:59,958
that's where the expertise of architecture comes in, to really represent that and make it happen.

1115
01:31:59,958 --> 01:32:06,678
and I've seen enough and we've made many experiments

1116
01:32:06,678 --> 01:32:13,738
it would give you a sense of identity, sense of place, sense of coherence

1117
01:32:13,738 --> 01:32:19,838
and you could say yes, this is one more of those free cities.

1118
01:32:20,598 --> 01:32:28,438
I mean it probably would make sense because free cities are a frontier space

1119
01:32:28,438 --> 01:32:31,538
that you should use frontier technology.

1120
01:32:31,758 --> 01:32:32,878
You should be 21st century.

1121
01:32:33,158 --> 01:32:34,698
I mean, my argument has always been

1122
01:32:34,698 --> 01:32:38,518
the kind of freedom we're craving for and asking for

1123
01:32:38,518 --> 01:32:41,118
and the degrees of economic freedoms we need now,

1124
01:32:41,458 --> 01:32:43,078
we never needed them so badly

1125
01:32:43,078 --> 01:32:44,978
because of all the opportunities

1126
01:32:44,978 --> 01:32:47,638
we can exploit for those freedoms.

1127
01:32:48,658 --> 01:32:52,678
And so the over-regulation,

1128
01:32:53,158 --> 01:32:54,738
the politicization and planning

1129
01:32:54,738 --> 01:32:57,138
was never a good idea,

1130
01:32:57,138 --> 01:33:02,258
but it was relatively viable and feasible in the 1950s, 60s

1131
01:33:02,258 --> 01:33:03,498
under mechanical mass production,

1132
01:33:03,658 --> 01:33:08,178
where Kaplan itself structured itself into big bureaucracies.

1133
01:33:08,538 --> 01:33:16,138
The market was squeezed out and substituted by relations of allocation

1134
01:33:16,898 --> 01:33:21,598
within big vertically and horizontally integrated corporate agglomerates.

1135
01:33:21,958 --> 01:33:23,158
I mean, that world is gone.

1136
01:33:23,158 --> 01:33:30,758
And they then had built a kind of modernist company city, company development.

1137
01:33:31,758 --> 01:33:35,898
And so that was different times.

1138
01:33:35,898 --> 01:33:40,698
We have the computational revolution, the flexible specialization, network society.

1139
01:33:41,358 --> 01:33:43,618
We need more degrees of freedom than ever before.

1140
01:33:45,758 --> 01:33:52,298
And therefore, I think to express that, we should also express the frontier, 21st century, everything.

1141
01:33:53,158 --> 01:33:58,458
and the 21st century everything we need degrees of freedom which we could which would never existed

1142
01:33:58,458 --> 01:34:01,978
not even in the 19th century sometimes unhistorical about

1143
01:34:01,978 --> 01:34:09,438
patrick thank you very much indeed yeah that's a lovely place to end i i kind of i'm i'm a i'm a

1144
01:34:09,438 --> 01:34:16,678
sucker for for old style architecture but i fully understand what you're saying and that that an

1145
01:34:16,678 --> 01:34:23,158
identity would evolve from that and it it is an important aspect of the whole movement is to have

1146
01:34:23,158 --> 01:34:31,478
an identity so people know what yeah what this thing is and not only is the is the is the frontier

1147
01:34:31,478 --> 01:34:39,578
appearing but the technology to create anything it appears i mean you talk about designing beams

1148
01:34:39,578 --> 01:34:44,158
that have a little kink in the middle you know this would have been a mistake 50 years ago this

1149
01:34:44,158 --> 01:34:51,318
is now something that you can actually print or you can design 3d printing for instance open up

1150
01:34:51,318 --> 01:35:01,558
the design space before you could you just had to extrude a profile you know so so so that means

1151
01:35:01,558 --> 01:35:08,798
the fabrication was constraining the forms and now you can optimize and then 3d print

1152
01:35:08,798 --> 01:35:13,218
or laser cut and laser weld.

1153
01:35:14,838 --> 01:35:17,738
You can make every, you know, in a cladding,

1154
01:35:17,838 --> 01:35:19,678
you can make every panel different.

1155
01:35:20,058 --> 01:35:23,418
So you can make a tessellation which registers

1156
01:35:23,418 --> 01:35:26,998
the concave convex, the flat curve, the tight curve,

1157
01:35:27,098 --> 01:35:28,358
where the elements become smaller,

1158
01:35:28,798 --> 01:35:32,318
like the tessellation on an organism.

1159
01:35:33,338 --> 01:35:36,838
And when you look at it, you can sense the intricacy,

1160
01:35:36,838 --> 01:35:44,218
the intelligence.

1161
01:35:46,078 --> 01:35:46,878
And I think that's,

1162
01:35:47,258 --> 01:35:48,898
we sense that as something we respect

1163
01:35:48,898 --> 01:35:53,298
and trust

1164
01:35:53,298 --> 01:35:56,198
and want to be part of.

1165
01:35:57,478 --> 01:35:58,338
You know, if you have,

1166
01:35:58,338 --> 01:35:59,718
in front of two buildings,

1167
01:35:59,798 --> 01:36:01,978
one is kind of thrown together semi-randomly

1168
01:36:01,978 --> 01:36:03,678
and here's something which is intricate

1169
01:36:03,678 --> 01:36:05,078
and kind of

1170
01:36:05,078 --> 01:36:08,118
complex in order

1171
01:36:08,118 --> 01:36:08,538
you say

1172
01:36:08,538 --> 01:36:11,838
this could be

1173
01:36:11,838 --> 01:36:14,418
dangerous, disorienting

1174
01:36:14,418 --> 01:36:17,298
and this

1175
01:36:17,298 --> 01:36:18,898
there's a sense of trust

1176
01:36:18,898 --> 01:36:20,298
I think it's also

1177
01:36:20,298 --> 01:36:21,118
and appeal

1178
01:36:21,118 --> 01:36:22,678
what does appeal

1179
01:36:22,678 --> 01:36:23,938
I mean the aesthetic sensibilities

1180
01:36:23,938 --> 01:36:26,778
in a way kind of intuitive shortcuts

1181
01:36:26,778 --> 01:36:29,178
and if you're well attuned

1182
01:36:29,178 --> 01:36:30,038
and you have the right

1183
01:36:30,038 --> 01:36:30,978
aesthetic sensibility

1184
01:36:30,978 --> 01:36:32,038
similar to moral sensibility

1185
01:36:32,038 --> 01:36:33,058
you're attracted to somebody

1186
01:36:33,058 --> 01:36:34,298
who's a personality

1187
01:36:34,298 --> 01:36:43,538
was functioning well, or a place, or an object. Seeing beauty meaning seeing

1188
01:36:43,538 --> 01:36:48,998
performance, not calculating through analysis, just an intuitive. We're conditioned,

1189
01:36:48,998 --> 01:36:52,658
we learned that. You've seen many things and you kind of in the end you know

1190
01:36:52,658 --> 01:36:59,018
what is good for you, what works. You can read it off the form,

1191
01:36:59,018 --> 01:37:03,818
you can read it of the superficial markers and that is this appeal.

1192
01:37:03,818 --> 01:37:08,858
Every organism, we navigate the work aesthetically, world aesthetically always.

1193
01:37:09,578 --> 01:37:12,938
What attracts us, what repels us? I mean it's very deep, very visceral,

1194
01:37:13,818 --> 01:37:18,218
a nice smell, a disgusting smell. I mean they're actually signs of something else

1195
01:37:19,578 --> 01:37:23,418
and if you extrapolate from this old sense of beauty, I mean you have to relearn

1196
01:37:23,418 --> 01:37:30,258
the kind of aesthetic values,

1197
01:37:30,258 --> 01:37:33,998
because now the things which are in the frontier of high performance

1198
01:37:33,998 --> 01:37:34,958
look different.

1199
01:37:35,618 --> 01:37:36,718
You have to learn to love them.

1200
01:37:38,058 --> 01:37:41,478
And that's also something I reflect.

1201
01:37:41,758 --> 01:37:45,558
And sometimes if you've read it to sensibilities

1202
01:37:45,558 --> 01:37:48,558
from yesteryears, high performance,

1203
01:37:49,598 --> 01:37:52,098
this nostalgia could hold you back.

1204
01:37:52,098 --> 01:38:01,678
well i'm also thinking sorry i just keep thinking of things um we one of the things that i don't

1205
01:38:01,678 --> 01:38:07,258
like about the world of mass production is when buildings are built because they're easy to

1206
01:38:07,258 --> 01:38:12,158
produce because each thing right but but i i'm thinking about what you just said about having

1207
01:38:12,158 --> 01:38:20,718
every single panel made one you know a one-off that can now be mass-produced in a sense so it's

1208
01:38:20,718 --> 01:38:27,918
good use of of mass production i mean and and it's more optimal yes um for instance if you had shading

1209
01:38:27,918 --> 01:38:34,478
elements brisole elements uh traditionally you say okay you just use the same element and the

1210
01:38:34,478 --> 01:38:42,878
same pattern across all sides but west south to east they all need shading but different

1211
01:38:44,398 --> 01:38:50,398
the sun comes in flat comes in steep because there might also be a building which so you need to

1212
01:38:50,718 --> 01:38:54,118
So in particular view, it's along a curved wall.

1213
01:38:54,718 --> 01:38:57,438
It will gradually transform and adapt and change.

1214
01:38:57,858 --> 01:38:59,198
That's the rational thing.

1215
01:39:00,078 --> 01:39:02,058
What is also good about it, when you come to the building,

1216
01:39:02,218 --> 01:39:06,758
you can sense, it's like a compass on an overcast day.

1217
01:39:07,658 --> 01:39:09,518
So there's the multiple advantages.

1218
01:39:09,718 --> 01:39:10,918
There's materially more advantage.

1219
01:39:11,178 --> 01:39:12,838
It's expressively more advantage.

1220
01:39:13,378 --> 01:39:15,138
It gives you more sense of an intricacy,

1221
01:39:15,258 --> 01:39:17,558
which is you're more attracted to and you should be

1222
01:39:17,558 --> 01:39:18,918
because it's less crude.

1223
01:39:18,918 --> 01:39:22,718
and therefore less wasteful.

1224
01:39:23,178 --> 01:39:24,978
What is wasteful about the other shading

1225
01:39:24,978 --> 01:39:29,378
is that you have excessive use of material

1226
01:39:29,378 --> 01:39:33,478
and you have insufficient shading

1227
01:39:33,478 --> 01:39:35,238
or too much shading

1228
01:39:35,238 --> 01:39:37,278
and therefore it's too dark

1229
01:39:37,278 --> 01:39:38,118
and you have to switch the light.

1230
01:39:38,238 --> 01:39:40,978
I mean, so it's just crude.

1231
01:39:42,058 --> 01:39:45,978
And so we can do more than...

1232
01:39:45,978 --> 01:39:47,398
We're not stuck in this crudeness.

1233
01:39:47,398 --> 01:39:52,138
but a lot of our colleagues haven't yet realized that.

1234
01:39:52,138 --> 01:39:54,138
Or they don't have the compass seed.

1235
01:39:54,138 --> 01:39:56,318
They're still stuck with this crudeness

1236
01:39:56,318 --> 01:39:58,218
because that's all they've got.

1237
01:39:58,218 --> 01:39:59,958
It would have been arguably too expensive.

1238
01:39:59,976 --> 01:40:05,256
before it was too expensive yeah and even difficult to calculate yeah now we have scripts

1239
01:40:05,256 --> 01:40:13,016
where we maybe we can simulate the sun exposure onto a surface that is a differentiation it could

1240
01:40:13,016 --> 01:40:18,376
be a color map and then you can kind of align the script feeds into a variation of the louver

1241
01:40:19,256 --> 01:40:22,376
automatically adapting the louver according to the sun exposure conditions

1242
01:40:23,496 --> 01:40:29,016
and of course you have to set up the system so that's a choice the choice is not i'm decide

1243
01:40:29,016 --> 01:40:35,336
deciding on each louver but I'm deciding on a way of measuring sun exposure, okay that's more or less

1244
01:40:35,336 --> 01:40:41,096
given, and how I could, there are many many different ways in which I can make these louvers

1245
01:40:42,616 --> 01:40:48,856
express them, individual elements, lines which go from horizontal to vertical, or shingle-like,

1246
01:40:48,856 --> 01:41:00,136
or so these choices still remain and I can make it into the kind of 90% range of optimal in many

1247
01:41:00,136 --> 01:41:05,616
different ways and then there's still creative choices which system to and I have another

1248
01:41:05,616 --> 01:41:11,236
criteria by which okay I'm doing it but I'm doing it timber because in my neighborhood a lot of

1249
01:41:11,236 --> 01:41:18,096
timber buildings I want to be kind of harmonizing with them and so I make this connection

1250
01:41:18,096 --> 01:41:23,036
rather than, and I could have used stone, I could have used metal, they have different

1251
01:41:23,036 --> 01:41:30,356
price points, but again, there's a range. So there's a lot of creative choices still too.

1252
01:41:30,356 --> 01:41:46,276
And the choices are kind of which systems to apply and which kind of whether I should include the overshadowing of neighboring buildings for instance then suddenly the louvers thin out because I don need them here

1253
01:41:46,276 --> 01:41:50,696
and then once the environment was built at least I'm encountering the facade and say

1254
01:41:50,696 --> 01:41:58,256
why is this ah okay which gives you inference potential it gives you information you look at

1255
01:41:58,256 --> 01:42:06,576
facade and you see what's around it represented in the facade. That's the kind of idea where I feel

1256
01:42:06,576 --> 01:42:14,016
and now you don't have that because nothing has the decisions are arbitrary, disconnected,

1257
01:42:14,016 --> 01:42:19,776
so they don't tell you more. I want everything you encounter to tell you more. The visible tells

1258
01:42:19,776 --> 01:42:24,976
you about what is not yet visible but might empower you to know. So these are the kind of

1259
01:42:24,976 --> 01:42:31,456
advantages of this way of working. And in nature you have that. Every dumb bird can find its way in

1260
01:42:31,456 --> 01:42:39,056
an environment because where the water flows is where the vegetation is different. The north

1261
01:42:39,056 --> 01:42:46,256
phase of a mountain is different from the south phase. The vegetation thins out and the rock crops

1262
01:42:46,256 --> 01:42:54,176
up. And so you know what to expect where. And then in these conditions different creatures, flora and fauna

1263
01:42:54,176 --> 01:43:02,676
adapt to these. And so this logic and coherence and the rule-basedness helps every creature to find their way.

1264
01:43:02,676 --> 01:43:09,616
Whereas in a garbage pile there's no reason, rhyme or logic to follow.

1265
01:43:09,616 --> 01:43:19,796
And so I want the city to be as intricately ordered so that everybody can orient And we are more bright and faster learners than birds

1266
01:43:21,736 --> 01:43:24,856
It's the eternal battle between bottom-up and top-down, isn't it?

1267
01:43:25,096 --> 01:43:28,816
It's fascinating to hear it in the context of architecture, though,

1268
01:43:28,816 --> 01:43:32,416
because I see it in daily life.

1269
01:43:33,076 --> 01:43:40,976
But it's great to think that you're actually trying to apply this to that field.

1270
01:43:40,976 --> 01:43:43,736
Because it can be applied to every field or every job.

1271
01:43:43,856 --> 01:43:46,076
You know, everything is a research effort.

1272
01:43:46,776 --> 01:43:52,116
I mean, we're doing this with universities, with students,

1273
01:43:52,356 --> 01:43:54,016
to explore it, to develop it.

1274
01:43:54,736 --> 01:43:58,396
Then the next level is PhD explorations.

1275
01:43:58,956 --> 01:44:00,056
Bring the argument.

1276
01:44:00,256 --> 01:44:02,276
The next is internal research department.

1277
01:44:02,276 --> 01:44:07,776
And then finally, 10 years later, we're rolling out some of that.

1278
01:44:07,776 --> 01:44:12,456
so it's not instant

1279
01:44:12,456 --> 01:44:16,836
but the pleasure is with the new tools

1280
01:44:16,836 --> 01:44:19,876
AI and some of these ecosystems around grasshopper and plugins

1281
01:44:19,876 --> 01:44:24,556
we do the research and not everybody has to go through it

1282
01:44:24,556 --> 01:44:28,596
so it takes 10 years

1283
01:44:28,596 --> 01:44:32,836
to develop but it maybe takes a year to

1284
01:44:32,836 --> 01:44:36,916
condense into YouTube videos and plugins

1285
01:44:36,916 --> 01:44:41,296
and then millions of end users can pick it up

1286
01:44:41,296 --> 01:44:44,916
and get used to it within a few weeks, let's say.

1287
01:44:45,356 --> 01:44:48,196
That's the way this spreads.

1288
01:44:49,476 --> 01:45:02,076
Well I have no doubt it will spread Now you articulated it Many thanks for spending some time I need to go back away and digest this now

1289
01:45:02,676 --> 01:45:03,536
Okay, great.

1290
01:45:03,656 --> 01:45:04,296
Many thanks.

1291
01:45:04,676 --> 01:45:05,136
My pleasure.

1292
01:45:09,016 --> 01:45:12,036
All right, you made it to the end of the show.

1293
01:45:12,036 --> 01:45:17,396
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1294
01:45:17,396 --> 01:45:22,056
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1295
01:45:22,136 --> 01:45:26,176
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1296
01:45:26,176 --> 01:45:35,376
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1297
01:45:35,376 --> 01:45:44,456
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1298
01:45:44,616 --> 01:45:45,696
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1299
01:45:45,696 --> 01:45:51,896
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1300
01:45:51,896 --> 01:45:59,536
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1301
01:45:59,536 --> 01:46:05,456
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1302
01:46:05,456 --> 01:46:12,556
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1303
01:46:12,556 --> 01:46:18,676
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1304
01:46:18,676 --> 01:46:24,356
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