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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 175 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Brought to you this week by our two wonderful Free Cities aligned sponsors.

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That's right, our lead sponsor Veritas Villages are building off-grid freedom-oriented communities in Latin America.

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Look out for their new 340-acre acquisition that just got the go-ahead in Costa Rica with nearly 400 residences planned.

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Click on the link in the show notes to inquire about their other projects in Nicaragua and Panama.

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And especially if you're a Bitcoiner, because you can buy your property in a Veritas Village with Bitcoin and you can spend Bitcoin at all communities.

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And they will even help you to set up a mining rig in your self-sufficient home so you can mine Bitcoin as well.

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www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities.

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Also, our other sponsor, ArcPad. ArcPad are a seasteading company planning a second iteration of their groundbreaking reef resort in the Philippines.

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This time, their project will be off the coast of Prospera in Honduras, one of the most important free cities projects in the world there.

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You can purchase ownership in the Prospera Reef Resort either outright or via fractional shares from as little as 1%.

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So anyone can get involved at this stage.

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tinyurl.com forward slash ARC pad.

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Also in the show notes.

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If you want to start investing in a groundbreaking seasteading project, one of the first.

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Right.

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Today's guest.

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Well, it's a gentleman by the name of Oswald Horowitz.

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He's a filmmaker who stumbled into the world of seasteading and somehow ended up chasing one of the wildest frontier stories I think I've heard in a very long time.

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Now, as with many crazy seasteading escapades, it starts with a Joe Quirk encounter.

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Joe, you have a lot to answer for.

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Oswald read Joe's book on seasteading and then took a trip to a floating festival in California

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and after a few strange online connections he ended up trying to track down a mythical character

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by the name of Samuel Landy, an Italian tech entrepreneur who was living at the time on a rusty

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barge in international waters between Dubai and Iran. Samuel had a plan to bolt more barges

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together and build a floating city state at sea now this isn't just a chat about the film

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it's a conversation about the kind of people who actually push out to the edge and try and live

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beyond the reach of the normal system is both fascinating and quite frankly insane at times

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and when i say insane i mean both landy and oswald to be honest it's a story about risk

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obsession, myth-making, sovereignty and what happens when a crazy idea stops being theoretical

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and starts actually becoming real. Anyway, Oswald's new film is called The Legend of Landy.

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It's still in production so you can't actually watch it yet but this long conversation will

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hopefully give you a taste of what's to come. I think you're going to really like this.

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now as i mentioned last week value for value people and comments and bitcoin donations this

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week unfortunately you'll have to wait until next week i'm recording these two episodes in advance

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because i'll be traveling to prospera later on this week and i will have zero opportunity to

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record any intros in fact thinking about it as you listen to this i will already be in prospera

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recording new episodes of this podcast talking of prosper don't forget the free cities conference

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is looming closer and this year's event is a massive one for the first time ever we'll be

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holding our annual conference inside a real functioning free city in previous years we've

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gathered in europe mainly prague but also malheim in switzerland and monaco if you're an og you'll

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remember them but this year prospera is ready to host us on the beautiful island of roatan in

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honduras this event is quickly becoming our most anticipated conference yet and we're expecting

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more international attention than ever before so what can you expect as an attendee well

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everything that made our prague conferences so valuable presentations and updates of course

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from more than a dozen of the world's leading free city projects and seasteading projects too

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but what makes this event a first is that you won't just be hearing about free cities you'll

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be experiencing one firsthand if you're short on time the core conference program in prospera runs

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from september the 3rd to the 6th featuring keynote talks panel discussions project presentations

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and plenty of opportunities for networking, which for me, that's one of the big things about these events.

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The networking, the sitting around in the evenings, late night, dreaming up new projects.

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That's what I love the most.

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We'll also have our famous VIP dinner and auction with Mr. Mark Edge in charge there.

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He's been on the podcast a number of times.

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if you have a bit more time though i would strongly encourage you to arrive early and take part in our

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optional activities on september the 1st and 2nd these include a site tour of prospera networking

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events with local businesses snorkeling rowatan has some of the world's best coral reefs chocolate

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tasting a visit to a visit to a wildlife park and beach volleyball plus much more we're also

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offering a special day excursion to Ciudad Morazan, which is one of the other free city

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projects in Honduras over on the mainland. These trips will take place on September the 2nd and

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again on the 7th of September. So if you can extend your stay, you'll have the rare opportunity

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to visit not just one free city, but two in a single trip. This really is an historic moment

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for the movement. Not only are we hosting our conference inside a functioning free city for

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the first time, but the political winds in Honduras have recently shifted way in the favour of free

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cities with the election of a new president. So if you can make it, this is truly the year to not

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miss the free cities conference. What are you going to pay for this, folks? You think it's

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going to be really expensive don't you guess what tickets start at 239 dollars people what's not to

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like about that get in quick though there will be limited availability of tickets compared to Prague

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because the venue's slightly smaller and on April the 30th there'll be an increase in prices so

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secure yours before then if you can and start planning your trip Ruatan is a wonderful island

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but getting there from some countries can be a bit tricky and involves overnighting in America

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if you're coming from Europe etc etc so this is the one to plan in advance get it all locked down

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and then you can just look forward to it right time for the conversation and this week I suppose

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why don't you just well grab your favorite rusty barge I know you've got a massive collection of

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and drift out beyond the reach of the usual rules.

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And whilst you do all that, well, you know what to do.

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Sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Oswald Horowitz.

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as i was saying to you earlier we've done a fair number of seasteading episodes

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recently because um there's just a whole lot going on in the seasteading world

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it it was it was kind of flat for a number of years it had a massive pump at the beginning when

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everyone got into it and then it was almost like the reality hit well you know how do you do

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seasteading it's a great idea I mean it's one of my favorite ideas in the whole of the free cities

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ecosystem I won't explain why now but just listen to any of my episodes with Joe Quirk and you'll

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realize why it's one of the fundamental ideas of self-sovereignty it has to be because you can move

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basically at any moment but yeah it was flat for a while and then in the last couple of years

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three of the major sea-stilling companies have come out with prototypes and suddenly I realize

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it's going to happen it's all it's happening on a small scale now so individual things but my

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absolute belief is now that it will be there'll be floating cities in possibly even in my lifetime

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if I'm lucky enough and that's that's amazing and I love that fact so I think I tell you what a nice

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place to start might be um how you end how you came across the world I mean were you already

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into weird things prior to this or you know how do you how do you become someone who ends up making

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a film about seasteading so yes I've always had a strange niche interest in various things and I'm

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very into alternative forms of governance and the way in which the project started was I read Joe

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Quirk's book Seasteading another person that another person's life that Joe Quirk has messed up

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Very much so. Yes, he's almost killed me, actually. Literally. But yeah, so I read the

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sea-standing book, and I became fascinated by the idea. And it says in the early chapters about

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there's this floating festival called Ephemeris. And, you know, Ephemeris is in the Sacramento

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Delta. And I thought, well, I was living in San Diego at the time, I should go. And of course,

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I knew no one at Ephemer Isle and it was very difficult to get to Ephemer Isle because it's in

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the floodplain in the delta and the nearest piece of land is a giant marijuana farm and so if you

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set foot on there you might get shot so the thing is there's the nearest piece of land is like seven

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kilometers away so with my friend I said all right let's get an inflatable boat off Amazon

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so we got 120 dollar inflatable boats and we thought we'll just drive up there and see if we

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can get there um so eventually yes i uh i met this guy called uh called brewster and he had this boat

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called the electric avenue and uh yeah i spent the week at ephemeral and that was the thing that uh

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started my interest off in in seasteading can you just i've never heard of ephemeral yeah does it

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still happen now it still happens yes how have i how has joe never told me joe always just he knows

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so much but there's loads of things he just doesn't bother telling me about that sounds amazing

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like a seasteading festival like yes what happens at ephemeral for example so at ephemeral there is

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it's not technically run by anyone not by the seasteading institute there's no organizers there's

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no tickets the challenge is you have to get there so it's kind of a nice word play an ephemeral

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island so for one week it uh all these people bring different floating structures attached

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together and the original vision of ephemeral was that this thing would happen um once a year and

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all different people would meet each other and eventually it could move out to the ocean

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and become the first floating city or whatever.

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That was the original idea behind it.

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It's basically Burning Man on water, right?

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That kind of thing.

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Pretty much, yes.

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And how far off the coast is it?

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Or how far off the shore?

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No, it's not off the coast.

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It's in the Sacramento floodplain.

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So the delta, there's lots of different river networks

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and vast areas of water.

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And it's in the delta.

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It's not actually out at sea.

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It's not fast moving water then, is it?

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No, no, it's fairly, I mean, it's a river, you know,

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so there's a very large river system.

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So the water's moving fast, but it's not out at sea.

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So it's quite a safe place.

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And what's the craziest structures you see there?

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Or is it mainly just people in boats?

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Yeah, it's mainly people in boats.

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They have, you know, those various catapults that will, you know, fling people across the water.

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Just for the sake of it.

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Yeah.

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Because why not?

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But it was, yeah, going to ephemera that I decided that I wanted to make a documentary about someone that was actually seasteading.

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And by seasteading, I mean living in international waters.

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because the point of seasteading is sovereignty.

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It is to live outside the jurisdiction of any country.

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And so I start searching around

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and I find that there's basically no one

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that's actually living in international waters.

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So I do a lot of hunting around

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and I joined this group chat called Atlas Island.

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Mason.

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Exactly, yes.

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Mason's been on the show a couple of times.

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Good guy.

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He's just come out with an actual prototype for it.

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Yeah, yeah, the Libra Arx.

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Yes.

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which is a phenomenal idea and it last i spoke to him actually it made me realize once again

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seasteading is a reality because i've what i love about seasteading is that um it sounds like sounds

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crazy but there are working examples of seasteading happening cruise ships is the most obvious great

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example of free private floating cities but what what mason's making these movable they almost look

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like movable barges, they exist all over the world in cities.

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And you just don't give them a second look parked up.

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I remember going to Amsterdam once and we got a boat somewhere

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and on the way out of Amsterdam, all down the sides of the rivers

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were large, square, floating houses, basically.

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And I love that idea of seasteading, the sovereignty side of it being,

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and say, well, you could go to Amsterdam, and then we could go to Prague, and then we

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could go to Venice, and then we could go here.

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And that's the self-sovereign life.

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Anyway, I butted in there.

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You better carry on.

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Yes.

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So Atlas Island.

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Yes.

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So I messaged this telegram group chat, and I said, I'm a filmmaker.

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I want to make something about seasteading.

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Has anyone got any projects out in international waters?

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And there was one guy that reached out to me, a guy called Stefan.

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Stefan.

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yes don't know whether i've come across him tell me more so so stefan was in the process of

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divorcing his wife selling all of his possessions and he wanted to liquidate everything and uh move

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out to a boat and live out on international waters so for a while i was in you know chatting

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with stefan for a few months and eventually he starts hearing about this man that is living on a

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platform between Dubai and Iran in international waters. And Stefan had been trying to come up with

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how it was that he could live out at the sea. And he thought, well, it's probably better to join

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forces with someone else that's already out there. And so this guy was living on a deck barge, so

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20 meters by 72 meters, so quite a sizable area. And this guy's plan was he wanted to connect

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lots of these barges together to form a mini city state that could break away.

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And so this is kind of one of the...

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Sorry to put it in.

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That's pretty much the Strait of Hormuz, isn't it?

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That's kind of like that part of the world where all the shit's going down right now as we speak.

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Exactly.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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It seemed like at the time, I thought that's a very strange place to create some kind of new freedom project, you'd think, between those two countries.

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Yeah.

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I would agree with you there because, I mean, I don't know who owns that block.

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you know how is how wide is it do you know because there's a limit to how much of it can be owned

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possibly or not so i think the strait of humus that's quite thin that's maybe i think 26 or 30

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miles um but off dubai it's probably more like maybe i'm not sure exactly maybe 150 200 miles

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right on so that that means that that bit in the middle is stateless yes effectively well it's this

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thing with international waters there's no actually clear definition of what is international waters

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because 0 to 12 miles is in the territorial waters.

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12 to 24 is your territorial waters

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where you're able to police that zone.

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But from 24 to 200, it's in the exclusive economic zone.

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So even though that is international waters,

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countries will still have rights to mine and fish there.

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But 200 miles out is considered full international waters.

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So there's various levels of international waters that you can be in.

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Right, 200 miles is your safe bet.

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I didn't know that.

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00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,540
I thought it was just the 20, I thought it was 21.

218
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:34,280
You say 24, right, 24 miles.

219
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,880
Yeah, 12 to 24 is known as the customs zone.

220
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:39,420
Even though 12 miles out is international waters,

221
00:17:39,860 --> 00:17:43,020
you can get kicked out by the nation state there.

222
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,100
But 24 to 200 is, yeah.

223
00:17:45,460 --> 00:17:45,660
Right.

224
00:17:46,140 --> 00:17:48,940
Okay, so there's a dude living between Dubai and Iran.

225
00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:49,720
Yes.

226
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:50,740
On a barge.

227
00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:51,280
Exactly.

228
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:52,540
Tell me more.

229
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,960
So I thought, well, I want to go, this is my guy, it seems.

230
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,460
I've got to go and find him.

231
00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:04,640
So Stefan has a meeting with the guy from the barge.

232
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,180
How do you have a meeting with a guy that lives out to sea?

233
00:18:08,940 --> 00:18:10,860
You mean an online meeting?

234
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:11,960
Exactly, yes.

235
00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:14,460
That's the cool thing is with Starlink being released,

236
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,860
all of a sudden now it is actually much more achievable

237
00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:20,920
to do these seasteading free city projects in very remote places

238
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,100
because with Starlink you can be absolutely connected to the modern world.

239
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,880
So yes, Stefan had a Zoom meeting.

240
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:33,140
and uh you know i had given stephan lots of questions uh because i obviously you know

241
00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:37,500
fascinated about what this guy was doing did he not want you to approach him directly is that

242
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:49,706
so at this point in time i thought it it this thing with filmmaking is a huge part of it at least what i do is figuring out how to get to people how to reach people That oftentimes the central problem

243
00:18:50,146 --> 00:18:53,786
And you can imagine a guy that's living out in international waters between Dubai and Iran.

244
00:18:54,786 --> 00:18:58,266
You know, who does that? Like, what is the reason someone would choose to do that?

245
00:18:58,346 --> 00:19:02,026
Like, these types of people, as you all find out, are quite hard to reach.

246
00:19:02,426 --> 00:19:06,526
So anyway, Stefan is in the meeting, and, you know, he's asking my questions.

247
00:19:06,526 --> 00:19:12,386
And my last question to the man was, well, could I come on board and live with him?

248
00:19:13,126 --> 00:19:16,306
And so the man, he's called Samuele Landi.

249
00:19:17,666 --> 00:19:18,306
Samuele?

250
00:19:18,566 --> 00:19:19,206
Samuele.

251
00:19:19,726 --> 00:19:21,026
As in Samuel.

252
00:19:21,286 --> 00:19:22,646
Samuel, but Italian.

253
00:19:23,006 --> 00:19:23,566
Samuele.

254
00:19:23,586 --> 00:19:25,546
Samuele Landi.

255
00:19:25,926 --> 00:19:26,906
Sounds romantic.

256
00:19:27,406 --> 00:19:27,786
Yes.

257
00:19:28,686 --> 00:19:33,366
And when he asked if I could come on board, he was very against this idea.

258
00:19:33,366 --> 00:19:35,566
and Stefan found this really strange

259
00:19:35,566 --> 00:19:36,906
because he thought this guy's been very friendly

260
00:19:36,906 --> 00:19:39,366
very open but as soon as there's any talk

261
00:19:39,366 --> 00:19:40,666
of someone being there with the camera

262
00:19:40,666 --> 00:19:43,866
all of a sudden his demeanour entirely changed

263
00:19:43,866 --> 00:19:46,786
and there was actually a third person

264
00:19:46,786 --> 00:19:49,766
in this meeting

265
00:19:49,766 --> 00:19:51,966
who was a very important character in the film

266
00:19:51,966 --> 00:19:53,486
I'm sure you know him

267
00:19:53,486 --> 00:19:55,586
and he's a guy called Vit

268
00:19:55,586 --> 00:19:56,486
oh yeah

269
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,926
we'll come to his involvement later

270
00:19:58,926 --> 00:20:01,086
what was Vit doing there?

271
00:20:02,106 --> 00:20:02,706
Jesus

272
00:20:02,706 --> 00:20:09,126
okay vit vit everyone should know that but vit is the president of libel yes but at this point i had

273
00:20:09,126 --> 00:20:13,366
no idea who it was it was just he was just a dude called vit but what but he was he happened to be

274
00:20:13,366 --> 00:20:19,046
on the call he invited himself or you know i suppose he was friends with landy that's interesting

275
00:20:19,046 --> 00:20:26,346
i mean it's a small world but um yes so anyway after this stefan he's got a paranoid guy he

276
00:20:26,346 --> 00:20:31,286
starts to do research on landy and when you google samuel landy you see all these articles

277
00:20:31,286 --> 00:20:34,366
where it's like fugitive, you know, wanted by Interpol,

278
00:20:34,606 --> 00:20:37,566
massive bankruptcy fraud and all the rest of it.

279
00:20:37,926 --> 00:20:41,446
And Stefan thinks, well, given that I've just liquidated all my possessions,

280
00:20:41,926 --> 00:20:46,166
I don't want to invest them with what seems like a big financial criminal.

281
00:20:46,546 --> 00:20:48,266
So Stefan wanted to go live there as well?

282
00:20:48,426 --> 00:20:49,866
Was he just more next to him?

283
00:20:49,926 --> 00:20:54,186
He wanted to get another barge and join it on to Landy's project.

284
00:20:54,826 --> 00:20:58,346
Because there's this concept in seasteading of, you know, vote with your boat.

285
00:20:58,346 --> 00:21:03,526
and in this barge model of seasteading if you don't like the society you're in you can just

286
00:21:03,526 --> 00:21:10,466
break away so let's see yes so obviously after doing this research Stefan thought well I don't

287
00:21:10,466 --> 00:21:16,186
want to have anything to do with this guy so he blocked Landy and I was like you know well you can

288
00:21:16,186 --> 00:21:20,046
can you connect me with Landy and he said no and you know he didn't want to have anything to do

289
00:21:20,046 --> 00:21:24,046
with these people he didn't want to put me in jeopardy or something by associating with these

290
00:21:24,046 --> 00:21:29,066
sorts of people. So for a while I sort of forgot about the project and then I was in another

291
00:21:29,066 --> 00:21:35,586
Telegraph group chat and I see this new member has joined called VIT. I thought, wow, what if

292
00:21:35,586 --> 00:21:42,306
it's the same VIT? So yeah, I messaged VIT. I tell him about, you know, I've heard about this

293
00:21:42,306 --> 00:21:47,546
platform out in international waters and, you know, I want to go and film this thing. And VIT

294
00:21:47,546 --> 00:21:57,646
says to me, he says, sure, send me any of your previous work. And I suppose this is something

295
00:21:57,646 --> 00:22:03,866
I've found a lot with making this film and in general in life, is that it's very important a lot

296
00:22:03,866 --> 00:22:08,646
of the time to appear foolish rather than appear smart. If you appear smart, you can often put

297
00:22:08,646 --> 00:22:15,086
yourself in jeopardy. So one great historical anecdote about this is that Stalin kills all of

298
00:22:15,086 --> 00:22:20,446
inner circle. The one guy he doesn't kill is Khrushchev. And the question is, why didn't he

299
00:22:20,446 --> 00:22:25,506
kill Khrushchev? And to me, the most convincing explanation as to why he didn't is that Khrushchev,

300
00:22:25,786 --> 00:22:31,666
at Stalin's command, would start dancing funny jigs and doing like folk songs for Stalin. And

301
00:22:31,666 --> 00:22:35,406
someone thought, I can't kill Khrushchev, this guy's funny. And Khrushchev, of course, ended up,

302
00:22:35,546 --> 00:22:39,946
you know, ruling the Soviet Union after Stalin. And it's this thing of throughout history,

303
00:22:39,946 --> 00:22:45,946
wise men they bring king's grief but the jester always always lighten their mood so you know i

304
00:22:45,946 --> 00:22:49,886
was thinking about this and i was thinking well what can i send to this guy landy i already know

305
00:22:49,886 --> 00:22:54,266
that he seems to be some kind of criminal he doesn't want anyone who's a filmmaker to come

306
00:22:54,266 --> 00:23:03,306
on board so what have i what i sent him is of vital importance and i had the perfect video to

307
00:23:03,306 --> 00:23:08,526
send you're talking about you didn't you didn't send this to vit you send this to this is through

308
00:23:08,526 --> 00:23:11,206
I didn't have Landy's contact directly.

309
00:23:11,466 --> 00:23:15,166
I was sort of communicating with him through VIT.

310
00:23:16,026 --> 00:23:18,206
So I thought, well, what can I send?

311
00:23:18,786 --> 00:23:21,546
And so luckily, a few months before, I had made a short film,

312
00:23:22,186 --> 00:23:24,766
which we call American Dreams.

313
00:23:25,546 --> 00:23:28,726
And American Dreams utilizes the following ingredients.

314
00:23:29,526 --> 00:23:32,606
So it utilizes a giant American flag.

315
00:23:33,166 --> 00:23:35,286
It utilizes $150 worth of ketchup.

316
00:23:35,286 --> 00:23:38,786
a very beautiful Mexican opera singer

317
00:23:38,786 --> 00:23:40,786
and a single bottle of mustard

318
00:23:40,786 --> 00:23:44,386
and the American National Anthem

319
00:23:44,386 --> 00:23:45,746
It wasn't an ad, was it?

320
00:23:45,846 --> 00:23:46,606
No, it was a...

321
00:23:46,606 --> 00:23:48,586
Who did you make this film for?

322
00:23:49,386 --> 00:23:50,226
For fun

323
00:23:50,226 --> 00:23:53,366
Go on

324
00:23:53,366 --> 00:23:56,226
So, essentially, I have a friend

325
00:23:56,226 --> 00:23:59,046
that used to have a ketchup addiction

326
00:23:59,046 --> 00:24:02,286
and this guy would consume bottles of ketchup

327
00:24:02,286 --> 00:24:03,826
in a day

328
00:24:03,826 --> 00:24:05,186
and it was quite disgusting

329
00:24:05,186 --> 00:24:08,206
and it's a little bit of a crude joke

330
00:24:08,206 --> 00:24:11,446
but we were trying to come up with a short film idea

331
00:24:11,446 --> 00:24:14,286
to show him how disgusting his ketchup addiction was

332
00:24:14,286 --> 00:24:16,186
so someone was joking

333
00:24:16,186 --> 00:24:20,746
what if you were to make a sort of pornographic film

334
00:24:20,746 --> 00:24:22,906
whereby the finale is ketchup

335
00:24:22,906 --> 00:24:24,786
and it would be like this absurdist humour

336
00:24:24,786 --> 00:24:28,286
and we thought well obviously we can't make a porno

337
00:24:28,286 --> 00:24:32,866
but what if instead we just completely covered a girl in ketchup

338
00:24:32,866 --> 00:24:35,386
and we shot it impeccably.

339
00:24:36,206 --> 00:24:38,306
And it's this thing of if you have very high production value,

340
00:24:38,506 --> 00:24:41,946
you can make a lot of strange things seem perfectly palatable.

341
00:24:42,106 --> 00:24:45,886
Anyway, we shot this thing and there is this German word I really like,

342
00:24:46,006 --> 00:24:47,866
which is Gesamtkunstwerk.

343
00:24:48,606 --> 00:24:50,686
Gesamtkunstwerk, there's no direct translation,

344
00:24:51,246 --> 00:24:53,346
but it means a total work of art.

345
00:24:53,346 --> 00:24:55,926
It means an all-encompassing art form.

346
00:24:56,426 --> 00:24:58,426
And that was how we felt about the catch-up video.

347
00:24:58,926 --> 00:25:01,866
So anyway, when Witt asked me then, send me your previous work,

348
00:25:01,866 --> 00:25:05,806
I figured, well, I should essentially send him this ketchup video

349
00:25:05,806 --> 00:25:07,346
covered in ketchup.

350
00:25:07,426 --> 00:25:08,546
And it was shot impeccably.

351
00:25:09,026 --> 00:25:10,106
I want to make that clear.

352
00:25:10,186 --> 00:25:11,446
This was not a low budget.

353
00:25:11,706 --> 00:25:14,526
Well, it was a low budget, but it was a high production value.

354
00:25:14,886 --> 00:25:16,546
Anyway, I sent that video to VIT.

355
00:25:17,926 --> 00:25:20,006
And I click send, you know, and then a few minutes later,

356
00:25:20,086 --> 00:25:21,526
I see VIT typing.

357
00:25:21,726 --> 00:25:22,466
The typing goes away.

358
00:25:23,206 --> 00:25:24,526
And then VIT just ignores me.

359
00:25:25,006 --> 00:25:27,646
And I'm thinking, you know, I was so close.

360
00:25:27,746 --> 00:25:29,966
I was almost going to get to Landy.

361
00:25:29,966 --> 00:25:32,206
and all of a sudden I send this,

362
00:25:33,026 --> 00:25:33,926
I suppose you could call it,

363
00:25:33,946 --> 00:25:34,726
if you were being very crude,

364
00:25:34,846 --> 00:25:36,546
you could call it a ketchup bukkake

365
00:25:36,546 --> 00:25:37,606
if you were being very crude.

366
00:25:38,026 --> 00:25:40,126
And I had sent this to the associate

367
00:25:40,126 --> 00:25:42,746
of an international criminal or whatever.

368
00:25:42,846 --> 00:25:43,846
Now these guys are ignoring me.

369
00:25:44,306 --> 00:25:45,306
So for about a month,

370
00:25:45,466 --> 00:25:47,046
again, I sort of forgot about the project.

371
00:25:47,726 --> 00:25:48,806
And then after that,

372
00:25:49,506 --> 00:25:51,306
Witt, he replies to me

373
00:25:51,306 --> 00:25:52,846
and he says, nice.

374
00:25:53,406 --> 00:25:55,086
He says, we're happy for sure to have you.

375
00:25:55,446 --> 00:25:56,466
I was thinking, oh my God,

376
00:25:56,526 --> 00:25:57,466
it seems to be on.

377
00:25:57,826 --> 00:25:58,906
And then again, I say to Witt,

378
00:25:58,966 --> 00:25:59,486
great, you know,

379
00:25:59,486 --> 00:26:00,746
When are we going to go and visit Landy?

380
00:26:01,246 --> 00:26:02,586
And then again, Vitt ignores me.

381
00:26:03,626 --> 00:26:08,086
And, you know, like I call him, send me his messages, hear nothing from him.

382
00:26:08,606 --> 00:26:10,326
And at this point, I had no idea who Vitt was.

383
00:26:10,846 --> 00:26:15,286
So I thought, well, if he's not responding to my messages over the phone,

384
00:26:15,766 --> 00:26:19,226
the only logical way to continue the project is to find him in person.

385
00:26:19,746 --> 00:26:22,286
So I thought, well, how am I going to find him?

386
00:26:22,286 --> 00:26:26,906
I thought, well, I'll go on the internet and just type in Vitt Libertarian.

387
00:26:26,906 --> 00:26:29,066
and as probably all your listeners will know

388
00:26:29,066 --> 00:26:31,606
Witt Libertarian will take you straight to the guy

389
00:26:31,606 --> 00:26:33,326
so I thought okay

390
00:26:33,326 --> 00:26:35,446
wow this is Witt, he's this president

391
00:26:35,446 --> 00:26:37,286
of Liberland, this micronation

392
00:26:37,286 --> 00:26:39,366
and I'm reading Witt's Wikipedia

393
00:26:39,366 --> 00:26:41,406
and I see it's Witt's

394
00:26:41,406 --> 00:26:43,326
birthday coming up, so I'm thinking

395
00:26:43,326 --> 00:26:45,526
surely I'll find Witt at his

396
00:26:45,526 --> 00:26:47,186
own birthday party at Liberland

397
00:26:47,186 --> 00:26:49,826
so I thought well I'll go to Liberland and try and find him

398
00:26:49,826 --> 00:26:51,686
they do, he does

399
00:26:51,686 --> 00:26:53,626
celebrate it in, I think

400
00:26:53,626 --> 00:26:55,586
I went last year, but

401
00:26:55,586 --> 00:26:56,186
not in Liberland,

402
00:26:56,286 --> 00:26:56,786
in Ark.

403
00:26:57,526 --> 00:26:57,726
Exactly.

404
00:26:58,126 --> 00:26:59,046
They have a festival

405
00:26:59,046 --> 00:26:59,806
at the same time,

406
00:26:59,846 --> 00:27:00,106
don't they?

407
00:27:00,506 --> 00:27:01,166
They have the,

408
00:27:01,566 --> 00:27:01,766
well,

409
00:27:02,086 --> 00:27:02,906
Liber Polko.

410
00:27:03,106 --> 00:27:03,206
Yeah,

411
00:27:03,286 --> 00:27:04,006
I went last year.

412
00:27:04,106 --> 00:27:04,866
So Witt's birthday,

413
00:27:05,246 --> 00:27:05,986
if I remember correctly,

414
00:27:06,066 --> 00:27:07,466
is September the 14th.

415
00:27:07,866 --> 00:27:08,766
I think it's around that time.

416
00:27:08,806 --> 00:27:09,426
I think Liber Polko

417
00:27:09,426 --> 00:27:10,226
is maybe a little bit before.

418
00:27:10,786 --> 00:27:11,026
But yes,

419
00:27:11,046 --> 00:27:12,046
I got to Liberland.

420
00:27:12,346 --> 00:27:13,106
I went to the Ark village

421
00:27:13,106 --> 00:27:13,866
and no one was there

422
00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:14,986
at first.

423
00:27:16,286 --> 00:27:16,766
And then,

424
00:27:16,826 --> 00:27:16,926
yes,

425
00:27:16,926 --> 00:27:17,706
I went to Liberland

426
00:27:17,706 --> 00:27:18,386
and

427
00:27:18,386 --> 00:27:21,506
no one knew where Witt was.

428
00:27:21,646 --> 00:27:22,306
And then I find out

429
00:27:22,306 --> 00:27:23,166
that Witt's been banned

430
00:27:23,166 --> 00:27:24,026
from Liberland

431
00:27:24,026 --> 00:27:24,686
and

432
00:27:24,686 --> 00:27:30,886
uh croatia really yeah yeah croatia i mean but libeland as well like in practice the police

433
00:27:30,886 --> 00:27:37,626
don't let him set foot there so it's kind of this like strange legal anomaly where croatia

434
00:27:37,626 --> 00:27:42,406
shouldn't technically be policing the region but they do anyway so there's plenty of episodes to

435
00:27:42,406 --> 00:27:47,106
research that in this podcast we've talked about it in depth but i think people understand the

436
00:27:47,106 --> 00:27:53,306
terra nullius it's called exactly areas of land which are unclaimed by anyone there's only a

437
00:27:53,306 --> 00:27:59,006
couple who left in the world one in chad i think and the other one is in gorna sega it's called in

438
00:27:59,006 --> 00:28:08,486
croatia yeah yeah yeah so there's also um beer toil in africa yeah that's the chad one and also

439
00:28:08,486 --> 00:28:13,106
parts of antarctica are also unclaimed there was a slice of it i think it's called um

440
00:28:13,106 --> 00:28:18,546
marie bird island i believe but it's it's on the mainland as well i assumed that

441
00:28:18,546 --> 00:28:25,306
they just declared Antarctica sort of owned by everyone.

442
00:28:25,686 --> 00:28:27,606
Countries have made claims, but not on all of it.

443
00:28:27,686 --> 00:28:31,066
I'm not sure the historical reason why there was an era that's still unclaimed.

444
00:28:32,006 --> 00:28:34,226
I doubt anyone's putting a flag there, are they?

445
00:28:34,826 --> 00:28:37,746
Actually, Vitt tells me that he does have his flag on Antarctica.

446
00:28:38,726 --> 00:28:41,566
And he also tells me he's soon going to have his flag on the moon.

447
00:28:42,886 --> 00:28:43,626
Apparently so.

448
00:28:43,926 --> 00:28:45,506
I think it's happening at the end of this year.

449
00:28:45,766 --> 00:28:46,466
That's what I've been told.

450
00:28:46,466 --> 00:28:47,366
Well, I can't...

451
00:28:47,366 --> 00:28:48,786
It's not that I don't believe that.

452
00:28:49,006 --> 00:28:52,506
I just don't believe Vitt believes people went to the moon.

453
00:28:53,426 --> 00:28:55,926
You know, I'd have to ask him.

454
00:28:58,046 --> 00:28:58,766
Go on.

455
00:28:58,766 --> 00:29:04,846
Because Vitt recently had his prime minister go into space on this commercial space flight.

456
00:29:05,066 --> 00:29:08,106
Yeah, it was the crypto guy.

457
00:29:08,366 --> 00:29:08,866
What was his name?

458
00:29:08,946 --> 00:29:09,186
Exactly.

459
00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:10,246
It's the guy behind Tron.

460
00:29:10,386 --> 00:29:10,626
Yeah.

461
00:29:10,706 --> 00:29:11,286
What's his name?

462
00:29:11,546 --> 00:29:12,166
Oh, God.

463
00:29:12,386 --> 00:29:12,886
I can't remember.

464
00:29:13,626 --> 00:29:13,806
Yeah.

465
00:29:14,486 --> 00:29:15,286
So, all right.

466
00:29:15,286 --> 00:29:18,526
So you're being ignored by VIT on email.

467
00:29:18,706 --> 00:29:19,946
That's a common experience.

468
00:29:20,046 --> 00:29:20,406
Don't worry.

469
00:29:20,646 --> 00:29:21,466
It happens to everyone.

470
00:29:21,786 --> 00:29:22,826
But I found out...

471
00:29:22,826 --> 00:29:25,246
What you describe is absolutely correct, though.

472
00:29:25,566 --> 00:29:27,466
You get responses about one month later,

473
00:29:27,706 --> 00:29:29,846
as if you'd literally just pressed the button.

474
00:29:30,186 --> 00:29:30,426
Yeah.

475
00:29:32,306 --> 00:29:32,706
Yeah.

476
00:29:33,426 --> 00:29:34,786
So VIT did...

477
00:29:34,786 --> 00:29:35,546
Like, I was on Lieberland.

478
00:29:35,666 --> 00:29:37,406
No one knew where VIT was.

479
00:29:37,466 --> 00:29:38,806
It was this kind of great mystery.

480
00:29:39,086 --> 00:29:41,206
And then it was his birthday coming up.

481
00:29:41,226 --> 00:29:42,246
And then I find out he's been banned.

482
00:29:42,246 --> 00:29:49,006
and anyway he then appears on this speedboat on his birthday um and so i i sort of get glimpses

483
00:29:49,006 --> 00:29:52,566
of him in the distance i managed to kind of film him but i don't get close enough

484
00:29:52,566 --> 00:30:00,286
to actually ask him about landy and so then vit leaves and um my seven days were up uh you know

485
00:30:00,286 --> 00:30:04,686
for various reasons the croatian police uh gave me this this ban from croatian i had to leave

486
00:30:04,686 --> 00:30:09,746
the same one exactly you got you got stopped on your way into libeland and they gave you they

487
00:30:09,746 --> 00:30:13,506
basically kicked you out of Croatia but you have seven days yeah same thing happened to me I just

488
00:30:13,506 --> 00:30:18,966
sit in the in the police station for like three hours and yeah yeah typed forms and stuff like

489
00:30:18,966 --> 00:30:24,466
that they were sitting there going you know yeah yeah right oh it happened to someone else nice

490
00:30:24,466 --> 00:30:29,126
yeah so then after I'm then uh ejected from Croatia I have this bike and I was with this

491
00:30:29,126 --> 00:30:35,026
other guy that was um also being kicked out and at this point I had like kind of lost faith in the

492
00:30:35,026 --> 00:30:39,306
project like I was kind of feeling like it was a very tricky to find Viet and again I wasn't quite

493
00:30:39,306 --> 00:30:44,786
sure how to continue so anyway we're um we're biking back and beforehand i'd been in the arc

494
00:30:44,786 --> 00:30:50,526
village but there was nobody there so i leave my bikes at the arc village and then as we're about

495
00:30:50,526 --> 00:30:55,606
to get a bus back to apperton and go back to belgrade then suddenly um this guy who i'd met

496
00:30:55,606 --> 00:31:00,646
on libeland a few days before says oh you know vit and the inner circle of libeland having this

497
00:31:00,646 --> 00:31:07,766
dinner and then all of a sudden i'm boom i'm having dinner with vit in the arc village i'd

498
00:31:07,766 --> 00:31:12,146
like to take a couple of minutes just to tell you about what I think is one of the most interesting

499
00:31:12,146 --> 00:31:16,766
real world freedom projects that we've come across recently. If you've been listening to this podcast

500
00:31:16,766 --> 00:31:21,746
for a while, you'll know that I'm always looking for things that actually exist, not the concepts,

501
00:31:21,746 --> 00:31:27,206
not the renderings, but real projects where people are already building the future. And this brings me

502
00:31:27,206 --> 00:31:32,626
to the Reef Resort, developed by the seasteading company ArcPad, founded of course by Mitchell

503
00:31:32,626 --> 00:31:38,166
Suchner, who many of you will remember, was the winner of the Innovation Award at the 2025

504
00:31:38,166 --> 00:31:43,866
Free Cities Conference. The Reef Resort, as far as we're aware, is the world's first operational

505
00:31:43,866 --> 00:31:49,086
seasteading resort. It's located just off the coast of Samal Island in the Philippines, where

506
00:31:49,086 --> 00:31:54,846
ArcPad currently operates. 14 floating units available through Airbnb and other platforms,

507
00:31:55,206 --> 00:32:00,386
a project that has already hosted thousands of guests in both their accommodation and floating

508
00:32:00,386 --> 00:32:05,486
restaurant now. Here's the development that will be especially interesting to listeners of this

509
00:32:05,486 --> 00:32:12,386
podcast. ArcPad is planning a second reef resort, this time off the coast of Prospera in Honduras,

510
00:32:12,566 --> 00:32:17,666
one of the most important Free Cities projects in the world, and construction is intended to align

511
00:32:17,666 --> 00:32:23,946
with the 2026 Free Cities Conference. So this is where the opportunity comes for you. You can now

512
00:32:23,946 --> 00:32:29,026
pre-purchase ownership in the Prospera Reef Resort. Ownership is available either outright

513
00:32:29,026 --> 00:32:34,766
or through fractional shares, allowing you to purchase from as little as 1% up to full ownership.

514
00:32:35,106 --> 00:32:39,726
Your ownership percentage determines your usage rights, your share of rental income from the

515
00:32:39,726 --> 00:32:44,986
eco-resort operations and your voting power in property decisions. This also gives you the

516
00:32:44,986 --> 00:32:50,226
opportunity, of course, to be part of a pioneering ocean-based development within the Free Cities

517
00:32:50,226 --> 00:32:56,586
ecosystem. Full units at the Prospera site start from $95,000, but with fractional ownership

518
00:32:56,586 --> 00:33:02,026
available you can participate at whatever level suits you if you'd like to explore this opportunity

519
00:33:02,026 --> 00:33:07,806
i've included a link in the show notes where you can register your interest and access the pre-purchase

520
00:33:07,806 --> 00:33:12,766
information if you're interested in free cities frontier living and the future of ocean-based

521
00:33:12,766 --> 00:33:18,986
communities then this is a chance to get involved at the ground floor seasteading is no longer just

522
00:33:18,986 --> 00:33:21,006
an idea. It's happening and

523
00:33:21,006 --> 00:33:23,226
now it's coming to prospera.

524
00:33:25,126 --> 00:33:26,166
And Vitt, you know, he's

525
00:33:26,166 --> 00:33:28,846
apologized for not getting back to me so soon.

526
00:33:29,246 --> 00:33:31,066
He said that his Telegram

527
00:33:31,066 --> 00:33:32,826
inbox, he's got like thousands

528
00:33:32,826 --> 00:33:34,746
and thousands of like scam messages

529
00:33:34,746 --> 00:33:36,846
as Telegram does and he said he just

530
00:33:36,846 --> 00:33:38,986
he was unable to reply to my messages.

531
00:33:39,106 --> 00:33:40,966
So anyway, you know, fast forward a couple

532
00:33:40,966 --> 00:33:42,746
of weeks, Vitt invites me out to Dubai

533
00:33:42,746 --> 00:33:45,166
and we're getting ready to

534
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:47,246
go out to Landy's ocean hideout.

535
00:33:47,246 --> 00:33:53,946
so uh you know viet hires this yacht and uh you know we're getting ready to go into international

536
00:33:53,946 --> 00:33:57,886
waters i take it you brought your cameras with you at this point yeah yeah i was i was filming

537
00:33:57,886 --> 00:34:02,766
everything along the way so you were filming looking for viet is this all part of the narrative

538
00:34:02,766 --> 00:34:08,866
of the film or will it be yes this is the early part of the film which is how i actually found

539
00:34:08,866 --> 00:34:15,046
landy and i suppose also my entry point into this world will also be how the audience experiences it

540
00:34:15,046 --> 00:34:17,646
no I can tell by the way you're describing it

541
00:34:17,646 --> 00:34:19,306
it's very narrative driven already

542
00:34:19,306 --> 00:34:21,166
I was going to say you know

543
00:34:21,166 --> 00:34:22,506
it should be in the film but obviously

544
00:34:22,506 --> 00:34:25,486
but yeah great go on then

545
00:34:25,486 --> 00:34:27,206
so let's see so yes

546
00:34:27,206 --> 00:34:28,386
we're on this

547
00:34:28,386 --> 00:34:31,386
we're on this yacht we're getting out into international

548
00:34:31,386 --> 00:34:33,306
waters again I'm thinking great you know

549
00:34:33,306 --> 00:34:34,906
I've almost made it

550
00:34:34,906 --> 00:34:37,406
there was so many times prior to this where I thought I've made it

551
00:34:37,406 --> 00:34:39,226
and then you know VIT stops responding to me

552
00:34:39,226 --> 00:34:41,346
and anyway I thought I've made it now

553
00:34:41,346 --> 00:34:42,446
you know I'm on this yacht with VIT

554
00:34:42,446 --> 00:34:47,506
and Vip tells the captain the coordinates of Landy's platform.

555
00:34:48,546 --> 00:34:52,226
And anyway, the captain didn't know about this until the day of.

556
00:34:52,866 --> 00:34:54,866
And then the captain, there's this big argument.

557
00:34:55,046 --> 00:34:56,766
He says, it's too far out in international waters.

558
00:34:57,066 --> 00:34:58,346
Is this a UAE boat?

559
00:34:58,646 --> 00:34:58,966
Yes.

560
00:34:59,646 --> 00:35:03,146
So we all get ejected from the yacht and then Vip flies off.

561
00:35:03,146 --> 00:35:05,606
And basically it's just me in Dubai.

562
00:35:06,146 --> 00:35:08,966
And I'm messaging Landy and then Landy's speedboat had broken down.

563
00:35:09,386 --> 00:35:11,686
Oh, so you are managing to speak with him now?

564
00:35:11,686 --> 00:35:16,826
So finally, yes, in Dubai, we were sort of connected through this, and then I was messaging him.

565
00:35:17,886 --> 00:35:20,146
And at this point, I was getting kind of paranoid.

566
00:35:20,306 --> 00:35:24,186
It felt like some prank was being played against me, because I'm like, how can I not reach it?

567
00:35:24,226 --> 00:35:25,766
Like, Landy's speedboat has broken down.

568
00:35:26,106 --> 00:35:27,506
I ring up all these boating agencies.

569
00:35:27,946 --> 00:35:31,866
All of them say it's too far, or it's going to cost insane amounts of money to go out there.

570
00:35:32,186 --> 00:35:34,726
And it's like, there's just no way to get to Landy.

571
00:35:34,846 --> 00:35:36,606
So again, it's the same principle.

572
00:35:36,706 --> 00:35:38,966
If it's not working over the phone, you go in person.

573
00:35:38,966 --> 00:35:43,566
so I went to uh walked along the Dubai marina and I spoke to everyone I saw with a boat

574
00:35:43,566 --> 00:35:50,486
and uh anyway I sort of charmed these fishermen with my uh my limited Arabic knowledge and uh

575
00:35:50,486 --> 00:35:56,766
convinced them to take me out really so that is the uh fishermen yeah yeah these uh you know they

576
00:35:56,766 --> 00:36:01,206
take people wrecking uh in the gulf you know fishing over wrecks so they were accustomed to

577
00:36:01,206 --> 00:36:08,706
going yeah I know that I you I remember the I don't know whether it's Dubai but when I used to

578
00:36:08,706 --> 00:36:13,786
work in Sharjah a lot every week every year and we used to go down to the port there where they're

579
00:36:13,786 --> 00:36:20,466
all they're very old looking ships and you know it's really beautiful ships compare when you

580
00:36:20,466 --> 00:36:27,006
compare them to what Dubai looks like with super high tech so you get these massive live-in galleon

581
00:36:27,006 --> 00:36:32,226
ships that look you know are you talking about those they're pretty slow and they no no I didn't

582
00:36:32,226 --> 00:36:35,926
get taken on one of those ones it was more of a modern one uh but that would have been that would

583
00:36:35,926 --> 00:36:39,626
been pretty cool uh well i imagine it would have taken a while though i couldn't imagine you could

584
00:36:39,626 --> 00:36:44,046
convince any of those guys i mean they're no they're a lot of them are immigrant workers who

585
00:36:44,046 --> 00:36:50,226
just go out to sea for like months at a time don't they go fishing and they just live on hammocks

586
00:36:50,226 --> 00:36:56,546
basically i've photographed a lot of them over you know over the years um but um okay so you got

587
00:36:56,546 --> 00:36:59,546
you got you found someone there was it expensive

588
00:36:59,546 --> 00:37:08,266
i can't remember exactly i think it was maybe like 250 dollars oh which didn't seem didn't

589
00:37:08,266 --> 00:37:12,466
seem excessive i thought good i thought given obviously it's but does he just drop you off

590
00:37:12,466 --> 00:37:16,166
i mean how do you get back have you got his number or something yeah is there a phone signal

591
00:37:16,166 --> 00:37:20,986
out there i suppose well there is starlink so you can't send messages right but yes they dropped me

592
00:37:20,986 --> 00:37:37,832
off uh out there and um come on you can just go straight to they dropped me off what was the journey out there like how long is it 200 miles did you say No no no no no So 200 miles is in full international waters Oh right okay But he was about I think about maybe 40 miles out

593
00:37:38,592 --> 00:37:41,092
Still, on a boat, that still takes quite a long time.

594
00:37:41,352 --> 00:37:48,312
Yeah, yeah, it was a few hours. But it was, luckily, the waters were very calm. So we made it in quite, sort of quick time, but then actually it started to get sort of rougher.

595
00:37:48,592 --> 00:37:49,792
And he knew you were coming.

596
00:37:49,972 --> 00:37:52,692
He knew I was coming, yeah, yeah, yeah. He knew I was coming.

597
00:37:52,692 --> 00:37:58,052
and uh jesus you must have been relatively nervous yeah i was all alone there was no one with me i

598
00:37:58,052 --> 00:38:03,332
didn't have a sound guy nervous my because i'm because i've made a lot of films my nerves on

599
00:38:03,332 --> 00:38:10,512
films is not what's going to happen to me it's am i gonna get the story that's the the bit i hate

600
00:38:10,512 --> 00:38:17,052
about filmmaking is this constant fear of of realizing and when you start seeing opportunities

601
00:38:17,052 --> 00:38:19,172
and you start thinking,

602
00:38:19,292 --> 00:38:21,792
oh my God, I really need to film this

603
00:38:21,792 --> 00:38:23,492
or I can't because it's the wrong moment

604
00:38:23,492 --> 00:38:25,372
or it's going to cause a cultural problem.

605
00:38:25,632 --> 00:38:29,572
It's just pure like pain, you know?

606
00:38:29,632 --> 00:38:32,132
And I can't imagine going out to a place like this

607
00:38:32,132 --> 00:38:35,372
and not knowing even if the guy's even going to be friendly to you.

608
00:38:35,572 --> 00:38:37,272
I mean, he could have turned up

609
00:38:37,272 --> 00:38:38,552
and he might have ignored you or something,

610
00:38:38,652 --> 00:38:40,012
which would have been, I suppose,

611
00:38:40,612 --> 00:38:42,432
can I ask you, this was something I thought of earlier.

612
00:38:42,432 --> 00:38:46,432
In your film, are you doing any filming of yourself yourself

613
00:38:46,432 --> 00:38:51,992
or is it more like of a higher production type of film than that?

614
00:38:52,692 --> 00:38:54,152
I would say...

615
00:38:54,152 --> 00:38:56,812
Like do you do pieces to camera on a phone and things like that

616
00:38:56,812 --> 00:38:59,032
which you're inserting into the film?

617
00:38:59,252 --> 00:39:01,732
There is a little bit of that but mostly not.

618
00:39:01,732 --> 00:39:06,232
I would say that my voice is this presence throughout the film,

619
00:39:06,492 --> 00:39:10,032
me asking people questions but I'm not really necessarily...

620
00:39:10,032 --> 00:39:12,572
I think you would feel my presence throughout the film

621
00:39:12,572 --> 00:39:14,272
but you don't physically see me.

622
00:39:14,452 --> 00:39:14,812
Okay, right.

623
00:39:14,812 --> 00:39:18,732
I suppose you know that at any moment in the film, it is me filming it.

624
00:39:18,772 --> 00:39:19,972
So I am the eye.

625
00:39:20,352 --> 00:39:20,452
Right.

626
00:39:20,912 --> 00:39:23,072
So let's see.

627
00:39:23,252 --> 00:39:26,352
So yes, it was very exciting, of course.

628
00:39:26,612 --> 00:39:28,192
And of course, I was a little bit nervous.

629
00:39:28,192 --> 00:39:32,552
But at the same time, it almost felt like there was no way not to do it.

630
00:39:32,672 --> 00:39:35,792
Like to find out about such a thing and then to have this opportunity to go.

631
00:39:36,172 --> 00:39:40,712
And then to not go because you're scared or something is kind of a denial of life itself.

632
00:39:41,072 --> 00:39:43,632
Describe the scene when you arrive.

633
00:39:43,632 --> 00:39:46,372
It's literally water and a barge.

634
00:39:46,572 --> 00:39:50,992
There's nothing for 40 miles all the way around.

635
00:39:51,332 --> 00:39:52,872
I mean, visually, nothing at all.

636
00:39:53,052 --> 00:39:53,192
Nothing.

637
00:39:53,352 --> 00:39:55,112
You're truly just in the middle of nowhere.

638
00:39:55,412 --> 00:39:55,632
Yeah.

639
00:39:55,692 --> 00:39:56,412
In the middle of nothing.

640
00:39:57,132 --> 00:39:57,372
Yeah.

641
00:39:57,832 --> 00:39:58,472
My God.

642
00:39:59,292 --> 00:40:06,052
So, yeah, so we arrive and, you know, it's kind of the waters are getting a bit choppy

643
00:40:06,052 --> 00:40:09,632
and it's kind of like tricky to actually sort of moor against it.

644
00:40:09,692 --> 00:40:13,232
And especially the fishing boat was like very, they were kind of very apprehensive about dropping

645
00:40:13,232 --> 00:40:17,752
me off because this thing visually appears very rusty and you imagine that there could be some

646
00:40:17,752 --> 00:40:21,992
quite serious damage to their boat if they're going to go side by side and then he did have

647
00:40:21,992 --> 00:40:26,832
this like little sailboat that was maybe 40 or 50 meters away on some rope and the fishermen were

648
00:40:26,832 --> 00:40:30,812
like thinking about trying to drop me off in the sailboat and i would like pull myself up so i

649
00:40:30,812 --> 00:40:34,852
didn't damage their boat but anyway luckily they they did end up some mooring side by side

650
00:40:34,852 --> 00:40:43,172
and you know they land these of crew haul my stuff up and uh you know i was really apprehensive i

651
00:40:43,172 --> 00:40:47,512
thought, well, who is this guy? I knew very little about him apart from that there are these articles

652
00:40:47,512 --> 00:40:52,012
that say he was wanted by Interpol and all this sort of stuff. And it suddenly struck me when I

653
00:40:52,012 --> 00:40:57,712
was actually there. Well, you know, I didn't know what was happening. Anyway, so he invites me on

654
00:40:57,712 --> 00:41:02,792
board and he takes me into this shipping container. So essentially what it looks like is you have this

655
00:41:02,792 --> 00:41:07,292
flat piece of concrete. It's kind of like Mad Max. There's things strewn everywhere. There's a

656
00:41:07,292 --> 00:41:12,652
forklift truck. There's, you know, these workers doing a lot of welding and it's very basic. And

657
00:41:12,652 --> 00:41:13,672
And there's people.

658
00:41:13,792 --> 00:41:14,572
So it's not just him.

659
00:41:14,772 --> 00:41:15,392
Not just him.

660
00:41:15,492 --> 00:41:16,572
Yes, he had five workers.

661
00:41:17,212 --> 00:41:17,692
Who?

662
00:41:18,532 --> 00:41:18,852
Who?

663
00:41:19,172 --> 00:41:20,032
Who are these?

664
00:41:20,132 --> 00:41:20,852
Who are workers?

665
00:41:21,052 --> 00:41:25,152
They are essentially migrant workers that work on ships.

666
00:41:25,392 --> 00:41:25,932
Oh, cool.

667
00:41:26,152 --> 00:41:30,352
So, yeah, they were from India, Philippines.

668
00:41:30,892 --> 00:41:31,212
Jesus.

669
00:41:31,472 --> 00:41:31,732
Yeah.

670
00:41:32,012 --> 00:41:34,132
That, what a prospect.

671
00:41:35,192 --> 00:41:36,092
What a story.

672
00:41:36,092 --> 00:41:38,672
Now, forget what, I mean, it's a great story,

673
00:41:38,812 --> 00:41:39,972
but I'm just thinking,

674
00:41:39,972 --> 00:41:44,572
imagine you're an Indian guy who comes to the Middle East to work and you end up,

675
00:41:45,632 --> 00:41:47,352
and you probably go home and think nothing of it.

676
00:41:47,392 --> 00:41:48,112
It's just some job.

677
00:41:48,332 --> 00:41:51,672
You don't realize that it's a very unusual thing that you're doing.

678
00:41:52,652 --> 00:41:57,432
Well, as you'll find out later, I don't think they had that experience at all.

679
00:41:57,692 --> 00:41:57,772
No?

680
00:41:58,092 --> 00:42:03,372
They were very sure that what they had survived was something very, very intense.

681
00:42:03,612 --> 00:42:03,952
Oh, right.

682
00:42:04,532 --> 00:42:06,612
I think there's no way you could leave that.

683
00:42:06,612 --> 00:42:10,112
And actually, some of them didn't leave it ever.

684
00:42:10,972 --> 00:42:12,252
But anyway, we'll get to it later.

685
00:42:12,712 --> 00:42:13,312
Jesus Christ.

686
00:42:13,312 --> 00:42:17,052
So, yeah, so I arrive.

687
00:42:17,272 --> 00:42:19,132
He takes me into this shipping container.

688
00:42:19,452 --> 00:42:21,012
He's not really saying very much at this point.

689
00:42:21,292 --> 00:42:22,292
Sorry, before you go on,

690
00:42:22,452 --> 00:42:25,852
is there anywhere I can see a picture of what this looks like?

691
00:42:25,872 --> 00:42:27,092
Oh, of course, I can show you a lot of...

692
00:42:27,092 --> 00:42:29,592
But I mean, can I put it into the...

693
00:42:29,592 --> 00:42:32,232
Because I've got no idea what I'm looking at here.

694
00:42:32,492 --> 00:42:35,952
Are you describing it as a kind of like a concrete barge

695
00:42:35,952 --> 00:42:38,512
with like a container on the top.

696
00:42:38,772 --> 00:42:41,392
And, you know, I'd really like to be able to see it though.

697
00:42:41,632 --> 00:42:42,712
Yeah, I can show you after the interview.

698
00:42:42,832 --> 00:42:46,312
I've got lots of, maybe about 40 minutes of the film editing.

699
00:42:46,332 --> 00:42:48,232
I just want a drone shot of what it looks like.

700
00:42:48,392 --> 00:42:52,172
And I'll pop it into this so that people can see.

701
00:42:52,372 --> 00:42:53,092
Great, yes.

702
00:42:53,672 --> 00:42:56,112
So, yes, he invites me into this shipping container.

703
00:42:57,092 --> 00:43:00,132
And at this point, like it suddenly hits me where I am.

704
00:43:00,472 --> 00:43:02,052
I think like if anything goes wrong out here,

705
00:43:02,332 --> 00:43:04,612
there's literally no way to get help.

706
00:43:04,612 --> 00:43:10,812
No one really even knew I was particularly out here, apart from, I don't think I really told my parents, maybe something vague.

707
00:43:11,292 --> 00:43:15,652
I was going to Dubai or something, but anyway, no one knew where I was.

708
00:43:16,272 --> 00:43:25,492
Anyway, so he takes me into the shipping container, and he gets out a bottle of whiskey, and he pours me one shot of whiskey.

709
00:43:26,512 --> 00:43:31,752
And yeah, it kind of seemed like a customary thing to do, you know, with some pirate type out in international waters.

710
00:43:31,752 --> 00:43:34,372
and I was waiting for him to pour a second shot.

711
00:43:35,292 --> 00:43:36,752
And he doesn't pour a second shot,

712
00:43:36,812 --> 00:43:37,912
so I thought it was a bit weird.

713
00:43:38,352 --> 00:43:40,692
And then he motions for me to drink.

714
00:43:41,092 --> 00:43:42,552
And he's not really saying anything the whole time.

715
00:43:43,292 --> 00:43:44,352
And I was thinking, okay,

716
00:43:45,852 --> 00:43:47,452
well, there's kind of two options.

717
00:43:47,912 --> 00:43:50,872
Like, either it's poisoned or it's not.

718
00:43:51,112 --> 00:43:54,152
And if it's poisoned and I refuse to drink it,

719
00:43:54,552 --> 00:43:56,272
I'm basically already dead if it is poisoned.

720
00:43:56,452 --> 00:43:58,092
Because even if I refuse to drink it,

721
00:43:58,432 --> 00:44:00,312
there's many other ways he can kill me at sea.

722
00:44:00,312 --> 00:44:01,772
but if I don't drink it

723
00:44:01,772 --> 00:44:02,772
I'm thinking then

724
00:44:02,772 --> 00:44:03,552
maybe he'll become

725
00:44:03,552 --> 00:44:04,492
suspicious of me

726
00:44:04,492 --> 00:44:05,332
so I'm thinking

727
00:44:05,332 --> 00:44:06,552
in this moment in time

728
00:44:06,552 --> 00:44:07,132
the only thing

729
00:44:07,132 --> 00:44:07,732
really to do

730
00:44:07,732 --> 00:44:08,272
is to just

731
00:44:08,272 --> 00:44:09,392
take the shot

732
00:44:09,392 --> 00:44:10,132
say cheers

733
00:44:10,132 --> 00:44:11,252
and knock it back

734
00:44:11,252 --> 00:44:12,072
and hope for the best

735
00:44:12,072 --> 00:44:13,532
and it was totally fine

736
00:44:13,532 --> 00:44:15,012
it was totally fine

737
00:44:15,012 --> 00:44:15,692
I was not poisoned

738
00:44:15,692 --> 00:44:16,872
and

739
00:44:16,872 --> 00:44:18,732
he's not a drinker himself

740
00:44:18,732 --> 00:44:19,872
he's just not a drinker himself

741
00:44:19,872 --> 00:44:20,432
but maybe he was

742
00:44:20,432 --> 00:44:21,012
a little awkward

743
00:44:21,012 --> 00:44:21,852
and I didn't quite

744
00:44:21,852 --> 00:44:22,612
articulate that

745
00:44:22,612 --> 00:44:23,572
and anyway

746
00:44:23,572 --> 00:44:24,492
I was expecting Landy

747
00:44:24,492 --> 00:44:25,052
to be this

748
00:44:25,052 --> 00:44:26,612
weird recluse

749
00:44:26,612 --> 00:44:27,172
you know

750
00:44:27,172 --> 00:44:28,412
he's wanted by the government

751
00:44:28,412 --> 00:44:29,152
for some reason

752
00:44:29,152 --> 00:44:30,212
but he was

753
00:44:30,212 --> 00:44:31,852
the total opposite.

754
00:44:32,412 --> 00:44:33,832
Like the perception of him online

755
00:44:33,832 --> 00:44:34,892
and the perception of him

756
00:44:34,892 --> 00:44:35,892
as he actually was

757
00:44:35,892 --> 00:44:37,172
is entirely different.

758
00:44:37,292 --> 00:44:37,972
He was like always

759
00:44:37,972 --> 00:44:39,532
always cracking jokes.

760
00:44:39,632 --> 00:44:40,632
Like he would call his family

761
00:44:40,632 --> 00:44:42,172
about three times a day

762
00:44:42,172 --> 00:44:43,332
every single day.

763
00:44:43,512 --> 00:44:44,792
So he's really a family man

764
00:44:44,792 --> 00:44:46,172
which seems like a strange thing.

765
00:44:46,432 --> 00:44:48,712
You mean he's got a wife and children?

766
00:44:48,952 --> 00:44:49,712
He's got a, yes.

767
00:44:49,812 --> 00:44:50,792
He's got wives and

768
00:44:50,792 --> 00:44:51,772
yeah, multiple children.

769
00:44:51,992 --> 00:44:52,272
Yes.

770
00:44:53,632 --> 00:44:54,072
What?

771
00:44:54,212 --> 00:44:54,632
And he's,

772
00:44:55,012 --> 00:44:56,132
he is,

773
00:44:56,312 --> 00:44:57,452
he's Italian, right?

774
00:44:57,572 --> 00:44:58,132
Is that Italian?

775
00:44:58,452 --> 00:44:59,172
He is Italian, yes.

776
00:44:59,172 --> 00:45:01,512
And his wife and children are Italian as well, aren't they?

777
00:45:01,572 --> 00:45:02,352
Yes, yes.

778
00:45:02,992 --> 00:45:05,392
So how does that work then?

779
00:45:06,032 --> 00:45:08,072
Do they know, like why is he there?

780
00:45:08,252 --> 00:45:11,272
Or is that something that will become apparent as the story goes on?

781
00:45:11,272 --> 00:45:13,372
It will become apparent as the story continues.

782
00:45:16,472 --> 00:45:22,232
But yeah, I suppose it's this thing of, as we'll find out later,

783
00:45:22,232 --> 00:45:24,592
he's someone that's been a real adventurer throughout his life.

784
00:45:24,592 --> 00:45:29,452
and for this he saw it as like one big adventure to kind of end his life with.

785
00:45:29,532 --> 00:45:32,332
He was 58 and he said, you know, he told me in his interviews,

786
00:45:32,452 --> 00:45:34,392
he said, I will die at sea for sure.

787
00:45:34,852 --> 00:45:35,832
I'm not going back.

788
00:45:36,912 --> 00:45:38,272
But what about his family though?

789
00:45:38,412 --> 00:45:39,952
Did he not want to see them?

790
00:45:40,272 --> 00:45:40,972
No, no, he did.

791
00:45:41,412 --> 00:45:46,032
He also said, it's better to die in adventure than on a bed when you are very old.

792
00:45:46,492 --> 00:45:49,772
And this is this current that has run all the way through his life.

793
00:45:49,952 --> 00:45:53,712
And it seems like even if you are a father and you love your children very much,

794
00:45:53,712 --> 00:45:59,092
it is also very sad for your children to think of their father as this great adventurer who has now

795
00:45:59,092 --> 00:46:04,592
neutered himself because he had children you know he saw that in some sense his his fatherly duties

796
00:46:04,592 --> 00:46:09,472
were not finished but all of his children were adults they were living their own lives and this

797
00:46:09,472 --> 00:46:13,792
was his you know great adventure and if you think about it he probably had you know orders of

798
00:46:13,792 --> 00:46:18,072
magnitude more communication with his children than most fathers would you know given that he

799
00:46:18,072 --> 00:46:22,392
would call them literally three times a day so he was still very connected with his family

800
00:46:22,392 --> 00:46:28,112
so I thought that was that was very different to how I imagined him well yeah I mean I am a dad

801
00:46:28,112 --> 00:46:37,832
and I'm about to go away for six weeks and um it's a test it's literally a test you know partly

802
00:46:37,832 --> 00:46:41,572
to see whether I can do it because I've never been away from my kids for more than

803
00:46:41,572 --> 00:46:47,612
two two or three weeks and not much at all because I work a I work a lot in short bursts

804
00:46:47,612 --> 00:46:50,892
and then I spend, you know, large, long periods of time at home.

805
00:46:50,972 --> 00:46:54,612
But I can't imagine not, I can't imagine saying,

806
00:46:54,832 --> 00:46:57,112
it's a bit like that film, wasn't it?

807
00:46:58,032 --> 00:47:00,792
The weird one where the guy goes out into space

808
00:47:00,792 --> 00:47:05,072
and he sees, you know, while he's away, he ages.

809
00:47:05,592 --> 00:47:06,052
What's it called?

810
00:47:06,212 --> 00:47:06,852
Oh, Interstellar.

811
00:47:07,092 --> 00:47:07,752
Interstellar, yeah.

812
00:47:08,532 --> 00:47:09,992
And that's the thing about Interstellar

813
00:47:09,992 --> 00:47:12,192
that I always thought was a really, was bullshit.

814
00:47:12,192 --> 00:47:14,532
It was him saying, I'm going to go and save the world,

815
00:47:14,612 --> 00:47:16,072
but I'm never going to see you all again

816
00:47:16,072 --> 00:47:18,992
because you'll all be dead by the time I come back.

817
00:47:19,012 --> 00:47:20,452
And I thought, that's a bit unrealistic.

818
00:47:21,032 --> 00:47:23,652
Why would you put that over and above your own family?

819
00:47:23,752 --> 00:47:24,092
I don't know.

820
00:47:24,192 --> 00:47:25,472
Maybe that's just me, but come on then.

821
00:47:26,332 --> 00:47:27,032
So you're there.

822
00:47:27,332 --> 00:47:28,492
You've got there, right.

823
00:47:29,952 --> 00:47:30,332
I see.

824
00:47:30,512 --> 00:47:31,992
So yeah, Lanny was very friendly.

825
00:47:32,152 --> 00:47:33,632
He was very welcoming to me.

826
00:47:34,712 --> 00:47:38,072
Do we know why then he didn't reach,

827
00:47:38,072 --> 00:47:40,192
he didn't really want you there in the beginning?

828
00:47:40,312 --> 00:47:41,652
Do we know what that was all about?

829
00:47:43,812 --> 00:47:45,812
So this will come to a bit later.

830
00:47:45,812 --> 00:47:53,732
So Landy had a lot of problem with journalists and especially with Seastick in general, I suppose, has this problem with with journalists.

831
00:47:54,452 --> 00:48:00,032
Like it seems very strange, for example, like there was this recent New York Times article about ocean builders.

832
00:48:01,052 --> 00:48:12,632
And they kind of frame this as this these weird, rich libertarians trying to like, I don't know, fuck the common people over and move out to sea after they've destroyed the land or something like that.

833
00:48:12,632 --> 00:48:17,512
and it's like if you think about like what the ocean builders pods are these are these eco

834
00:48:17,512 --> 00:48:21,772
restorative pods like whenever you build any kind of structure in the sea it fosters life

835
00:48:21,772 --> 00:48:25,652
it can help rejuvenate the oceans and yet people that write these articles about it they don't

836
00:48:25,652 --> 00:48:30,492
actually care about this at all i think i know i think i know why though i've thought about this a

837
00:48:30,492 --> 00:48:36,952
lot i think every your majority of people on this planet without realizing it are what you would

838
00:48:36,952 --> 00:48:44,052
called statists but it's it's an it's in their subconscious because whenever someone says to me

839
00:48:44,052 --> 00:48:51,932
oh i'm just trying to live outside the system me i think cool your average person sees that as a

840
00:48:51,932 --> 00:48:57,272
selfish move which is a bizarre concept really when you think about it because it's a liberating move

841
00:48:57,272 --> 00:49:03,832
and and i think it it comes from this very deeply held belief that kind of the collective

842
00:49:03,832 --> 00:49:13,212
the status collectivist idea is just very much pervasive it's been drummed into people a lot

843
00:49:13,212 --> 00:49:20,752
that whenever they see anyone wanting to do something which for me seems so fair the fair

844
00:49:20,752 --> 00:49:24,772
thing is like yeah you do what you want to do if you want to be a collectivist that's absolutely

845
00:49:24,772 --> 00:49:30,452
fine um but and if you don't want to be a collectivist cool i'm really happy with that but

846
00:49:30,452 --> 00:49:35,832
libertarians tend to think that's cool that's fine collectivists don't like you going outside

847
00:49:35,832 --> 00:49:42,572
the collective and a lot of times you know you get the same the same thing happens when people

848
00:49:42,572 --> 00:49:51,172
create a tax strategy that that saves them money or if you see now people talking about people that

849
00:49:51,172 --> 00:49:56,852
moved to dubai to save tax they're slagging them off left you know have you noticed in the media

850
00:49:56,852 --> 00:50:01,252
It's all these terrible people in Dubai because of what's happening in Dubai.

851
00:50:01,952 --> 00:50:07,192
These now getting laughed at because they went out there to stop paying tax.

852
00:50:07,332 --> 00:50:12,972
And me, I'm thinking, yeah, well, you know, to stop paying taxes is a good thing for you.

853
00:50:13,252 --> 00:50:17,752
You get more money to basically invest in other things.

854
00:50:18,192 --> 00:50:22,452
But your average taxpayer, it's like, there's a name for that.

855
00:50:22,512 --> 00:50:23,832
There's a syndrome, isn't there?

856
00:50:23,832 --> 00:50:30,932
where you're a taxpayer so if you see someone you know like doing something different you you have

857
00:50:30,932 --> 00:50:34,292
to hate on them because you're the one you think oh that's not fair they're not paying tax but

858
00:50:34,292 --> 00:50:38,932
yeah they made a move they thought it through and they moved to the other side of the world

859
00:50:38,932 --> 00:50:44,772
to get a better life and you know but it's a very yeah it's a deeply the collectivist idea is

860
00:50:44,772 --> 00:50:50,412
is all is very deep in a lot of people's subconsciouses and as a result anyone trying

861
00:50:50,412 --> 00:50:56,312
to do anything on their own especially if it's as this as self-sovereign as this this is like

862
00:50:56,312 --> 00:51:03,672
but seasteading is a very self-sovereign um movement because it's and it's also very difficult

863
00:51:03,672 --> 00:51:11,112
to stop out of all the kind of sovereign identities that you could take on it's the most

864
00:51:11,112 --> 00:51:17,372
i think personally the most pervasive and the best one and only probably will ever be topped

865
00:51:17,372 --> 00:51:23,572
possibly by space travel in the end and you know when it happened when it comes and because there's

866
00:51:23,572 --> 00:51:29,692
a sovereign presumably at least there's a sovereign space out there which is where you can really get

867
00:51:29,692 --> 00:51:35,512
left alone it's not 200 miles off the coast it's like two million miles in the middle of nowhere

868
00:51:35,512 --> 00:51:42,852
god knows you know but but no i agree the seasteading has there's a lot of misunderstandings

869
00:51:42,852 --> 00:51:45,152
about what's going on with Seasteading.

870
00:51:45,252 --> 00:51:46,972
But on the whole, I think it's people

871
00:51:46,972 --> 00:51:51,832
who don't like the idea of someone being self-sovereign,

872
00:51:51,992 --> 00:51:54,772
really, in a really deep sense.

873
00:51:55,512 --> 00:51:57,212
Yeah, and I think with Landy,

874
00:51:57,292 --> 00:51:59,312
I mean, part of the reason why he probably didn't want me on board

875
00:51:59,312 --> 00:52:00,572
is even not trusting journalists,

876
00:52:00,692 --> 00:52:02,932
is that he wanted to just do it.

877
00:52:03,372 --> 00:52:04,332
He wanted to...

878
00:52:04,332 --> 00:52:06,392
So he bought this second-hand barge,

879
00:52:06,812 --> 00:52:08,612
which cost about 200,000 US dollars,

880
00:52:09,152 --> 00:52:12,432
and he was spending a lot of his time repairing this thing.

881
00:52:12,852 --> 00:52:17,112
And I mean, at least when people see footage of the barge, they'll think, is this guy an idiot?

882
00:52:17,312 --> 00:52:20,052
You know, he's living on this incredibly rusty barge.

883
00:52:20,172 --> 00:52:22,012
It looked like it's about to fall apart.

884
00:52:22,572 --> 00:52:32,112
There was this Financial Times article where they described about Landy's project as something like a flotilla held together by giant rubber bands.

885
00:52:32,332 --> 00:52:34,492
You know, it sounds like the ultimate fool's errand.

886
00:52:34,912 --> 00:52:36,412
Like he seems like a complete idiot.

887
00:52:36,412 --> 00:52:44,012
But I think what is very important to articulate for Landy is that he was buying a new barge that was twice as long and twice as wide.

888
00:52:44,472 --> 00:52:45,752
And this was currently being manufactured.

889
00:52:46,092 --> 00:52:54,372
So we thought, well, while I wait about a year for this thing to be made, I might as well get a secondhand barge and live out of the sea and test the difficulties.

890
00:52:54,512 --> 00:52:55,192
So I actually know.

891
00:52:55,712 --> 00:52:58,712
Do we ever, sorry, but do we know Landy's history?

892
00:52:59,352 --> 00:53:04,312
I mean, having 200,000 pound to buy a barge is not something that everyone's got access to.

893
00:53:04,312 --> 00:53:04,852
Yeah, yeah.

894
00:53:04,852 --> 00:53:06,772
Especially while you're waiting for another barge to be built.

895
00:53:07,032 --> 00:53:07,412
Yeah, yeah.

896
00:53:08,172 --> 00:53:08,912
No, we can get to it.

897
00:53:08,912 --> 00:53:12,252
I can give you a few breadcrumbs at the moment of Landy.

898
00:53:12,252 --> 00:53:13,772
So, let's see.

899
00:53:13,872 --> 00:53:17,392
Landy created one of the first VPNs on the internet called One Click VPN.

900
00:53:17,672 --> 00:53:17,972
Oh, right.

901
00:53:18,032 --> 00:53:19,132
So, he's got money.

902
00:53:19,272 --> 00:53:20,152
He's got money.

903
00:53:20,292 --> 00:53:24,552
He made a billion-dollar tech company in Italy, a telecoms company.

904
00:53:24,692 --> 00:53:27,232
He brought high-speed internet to central Italy.

905
00:53:27,672 --> 00:53:31,352
He was among the first people laying fiber-optic cables all across central Italy.

906
00:53:31,352 --> 00:53:35,232
I think he had about 12,000 kilometers of fiber optic cables.

907
00:53:35,872 --> 00:53:38,392
So he was an incredibly smart, competent guy.

908
00:53:39,292 --> 00:53:47,012
And yes, as we'll find out a bit later, I mean, he was also among the first people that was selling encrypted mobile phones.

909
00:53:47,372 --> 00:53:49,432
So this is in, you know, 2008, 2009.

910
00:53:50,152 --> 00:53:53,152
Yes, he would sell these at this company called Cryptotel.

911
00:53:53,872 --> 00:54:00,692
And they would sell their phones for a very small price, you know, $3,000 per phone.

912
00:54:00,692 --> 00:54:03,092
but if you wanted to audit it

913
00:54:03,092 --> 00:54:04,772
to know that the security claims were true

914
00:54:04,772 --> 00:54:06,812
he would then sell you the source code

915
00:54:06,812 --> 00:54:08,552
but that would cost a quarter of a million

916
00:54:08,552 --> 00:54:10,512
or sorry three quarters of a million US dollars.

917
00:54:10,972 --> 00:54:12,092
So you can imagine the kind of people

918
00:54:12,092 --> 00:54:14,352
that are buying phones that effectively cost

919
00:54:14,352 --> 00:54:16,412
three quarters of a million US dollars.

920
00:54:16,772 --> 00:54:19,092
You can imagine he had a certain clientele.

921
00:54:19,492 --> 00:54:20,332
Probably the CIA.

922
00:54:21,332 --> 00:54:23,892
I did actually chat with him about this

923
00:54:23,892 --> 00:54:26,572
and anyway I can't say.

924
00:54:26,572 --> 00:54:30,732
I think you might get shot if you take too much.

925
00:54:31,452 --> 00:54:33,212
But all the other things I'm telling you,

926
00:54:33,232 --> 00:54:35,372
these are all, it's all known on the internet, you know.

927
00:54:35,752 --> 00:54:37,712
People can research it if they're interested.

928
00:54:37,952 --> 00:54:40,072
But it might, actually, before we go on,

929
00:54:40,432 --> 00:54:43,252
how far through this film are you?

930
00:54:43,632 --> 00:54:46,312
Like, as in, you know, when do you anticipate

931
00:54:46,312 --> 00:54:47,212
people can be able to see this?

932
00:54:47,252 --> 00:54:49,312
Because obviously you don't want to give away too much now

933
00:54:49,312 --> 00:54:52,412
because you want to find a lot of this out in the film.

934
00:54:53,092 --> 00:54:53,492
Yes.

935
00:54:53,852 --> 00:54:56,152
So I would say that it will most likely be done

936
00:54:56,152 --> 00:54:58,452
in spring of next year.

937
00:54:58,592 --> 00:54:59,012
Right, okay.

938
00:54:59,052 --> 00:54:59,792
That's what I anticipate.

939
00:55:00,012 --> 00:55:01,532
And have you got much more filming to do?

940
00:55:02,812 --> 00:55:04,872
There is one part of it

941
00:55:04,872 --> 00:55:07,952
that is very, very difficult to film,

942
00:55:08,052 --> 00:55:09,232
but it'll be the way the film ends,

943
00:55:09,292 --> 00:55:10,452
but we'll discuss it later.

944
00:55:10,612 --> 00:55:10,872
Okay.

945
00:55:11,012 --> 00:55:12,752
But I would say that I've filmed most of it.

946
00:55:12,952 --> 00:55:16,372
So after this, I spent a few weeks with Landy

947
00:55:16,372 --> 00:55:17,912
and filming.

948
00:55:17,912 --> 00:55:18,592
Living on the barge.

949
00:55:18,712 --> 00:55:19,472
Living on the barge.

950
00:55:19,892 --> 00:55:20,952
Because to me, it seemed like

951
00:55:20,952 --> 00:55:24,232
what seems to hold back a lot of seasteading projects

952
00:55:24,232 --> 00:55:30,512
is actually the individuals that have the willpower to actually go and live out in international

953
00:55:30,512 --> 00:55:34,252
waters. And at least for Landy, he saw there's a lot of these sea-stating projects where people

954
00:55:34,252 --> 00:55:37,772
are coming up with prototypes and designs, but there's very few people that are actually

955
00:55:37,772 --> 00:55:42,612
physically building. And Landy thought, well, I don't want to invent anything new. Instead,

956
00:55:42,812 --> 00:55:47,292
I want to rely on what already works, because these barges send goods all around the world.

957
00:55:47,452 --> 00:55:52,052
So they're well-tested traversing the world's oceans. So he thought that this would be a good

958
00:55:52,052 --> 00:55:54,572
place to start as you get these barges, you connect lots together.

959
00:55:54,752 --> 00:55:56,812
Nothing new necessarily needs to be made.

960
00:55:57,052 --> 00:56:00,572
And also even out at sea, it's incredibly difficult to make a living

961
00:56:00,792 --> 00:56:03,812
through doing things at sea, you know, through like mining or fishing

962
00:56:03,812 --> 00:56:06,452
or whatever it is, it's going to be insanely hard to actually have that

963
00:56:06,452 --> 00:56:06,992
support you.

964
00:56:07,232 --> 00:56:10,032
So he thought, I want to make things as simple as possible.

965
00:56:10,232 --> 00:56:20,518
I going to continue working on my software projects out at sea and I can use Starlink and I can receive crypto and this can sustain me That was very 21st century isn it

966
00:56:20,538 --> 00:56:23,518
So he thought, I really want to just make things as simple as possible.

967
00:56:24,398 --> 00:56:29,318
So, yeah, I suppose lots more of the details about Landy

968
00:56:29,318 --> 00:56:31,618
can be uncovered in the film, but essentially, yes,

969
00:56:31,638 --> 00:56:33,898
then after this, I left the barge,

970
00:56:33,898 --> 00:56:37,818
and at this point in time, I had filmed so many interviews

971
00:56:37,818 --> 00:56:39,278
about everything Landy was doing,

972
00:56:39,278 --> 00:56:43,758
But there was this big question that perhaps is a question on your mind, which is, well, who is Landy?

973
00:56:43,838 --> 00:56:44,838
You know, why was he living out there?

974
00:56:44,938 --> 00:56:47,018
Like, you know, what about these giant tech companies?

975
00:56:47,098 --> 00:56:52,178
Like, how did he go from having a billion dollar company to living on this rusty barge in the middle of the ocean?

976
00:56:52,698 --> 00:56:59,358
And I thought that, well, when I went there the first time, I was kind of a little bit afraid, of course, to ask him all these questions.

977
00:56:59,358 --> 00:57:01,438
Because I thought, what if he thinks I'm trying to expose him or something?

978
00:57:01,618 --> 00:57:03,058
And, you know, I became good friends with Landy.

979
00:57:03,058 --> 00:57:06,038
and I thought that I will return

980
00:57:06,038 --> 00:57:08,018
and on my second visit

981
00:57:08,018 --> 00:57:10,178
I will ask him all these questions

982
00:57:10,178 --> 00:57:10,958
about his past

983
00:57:10,958 --> 00:57:13,778
so at this point in time

984
00:57:13,778 --> 00:57:15,418
we're exchanging lots of messages

985
00:57:15,418 --> 00:57:16,778
and he's telling me

986
00:57:16,778 --> 00:57:18,558
you've got to go to Liberia

987
00:57:18,558 --> 00:57:20,258
you've got to meet my friends

988
00:57:20,258 --> 00:57:23,978
because Landy was

989
00:57:23,978 --> 00:57:26,838
running the Liberian embassy

990
00:57:26,838 --> 00:57:27,418
in Dubai

991
00:57:27,418 --> 00:57:31,218
and he knew many Liberian presidents

992
00:57:31,218 --> 00:57:32,078
and former presidents

993
00:57:32,078 --> 00:57:40,118
and he was trying to connect me to uh to these people why for the film i think so

994
00:57:40,118 --> 00:57:46,478
so the thing about landy is that a lot of people take this as being something very sketchy

995
00:57:46,478 --> 00:57:51,698
but i think i feel like i understand why which is that he would associate himself

996
00:57:51,698 --> 00:57:57,798
with like some of the strangest people uh in the earth like so for example he was

997
00:57:57,798 --> 00:58:02,078
good friends with this guy called Charles Taylor.

998
00:58:05,158 --> 00:58:08,558
So Charles Taylor is currently the only world leader in prison,

999
00:58:08,878 --> 00:58:11,218
and he's actually in prison for crimes against humanity.

1000
00:58:11,438 --> 00:58:14,558
So a pretty, it's a strange person to know.

1001
00:58:14,918 --> 00:58:19,278
Anyway, Landy was trying to organize for me to go and be able to interview this guy in prison,

1002
00:58:19,618 --> 00:58:22,758
because he thought this would be another cool documentary idea for me.

1003
00:58:22,758 --> 00:58:25,858
No one has been able to interview Charles Taylor since he went to prison,

1004
00:58:25,858 --> 00:58:28,518
and Andy thought it'd be a fun adventure for me to...

1005
00:58:28,518 --> 00:58:31,198
Is he some African leader

1006
00:58:31,198 --> 00:58:33,238
who embezzled loads of money

1007
00:58:33,238 --> 00:58:34,598
and did loads of nasty things?

1008
00:58:36,438 --> 00:58:39,978
So, essentially, so Charles Taylor,

1009
00:58:41,458 --> 00:58:43,478
God, it's a whole other tangent,

1010
00:58:43,618 --> 00:58:44,358
the history of Liberia,

1011
00:58:44,598 --> 00:58:46,498
but essentially during the Liberian Civil War,

1012
00:58:46,918 --> 00:58:48,938
he was trying to overthrow the Liberian government.

1013
00:58:49,598 --> 00:58:51,698
And so he was trained by Gaddafi in Libya,

1014
00:58:52,138 --> 00:58:54,178
and then he and this guy called Prince Johnson,

1015
00:58:54,178 --> 00:58:59,718
who I met later in Liberia. They both went together to try and overthrow the Liberian

1016
00:58:59,718 --> 00:59:05,038
government. And anyway, he manages to overthrow the government. He wins the civil war. And

1017
00:59:05,038 --> 00:59:10,218
then he then holds an election. And this is his election slogan. And this is not a joke.

1018
00:59:11,038 --> 00:59:15,678
I'm being serious. People can check this up. His election slogan was, he killed my ma,

1019
00:59:16,058 --> 00:59:23,018
he killed my pa, but I will still vote for him. Vote Charles Taylor. That's his actual

1020
00:59:23,018 --> 00:59:30,118
election slogan it's not a joke he's taking um honesty to a whole new level yes and the very

1021
00:59:30,118 --> 00:59:35,178
surprising thing is you think well did this work and yes it worked very very well because not only

1022
00:59:35,178 --> 00:59:40,898
did he win but he won the highest share of the vote ever in liberian history and since then no

1023
00:59:40,898 --> 00:59:47,018
one has won a larger share of the vote than him so he is this very beloved uh liberian leader which

1024
00:59:47,018 --> 00:59:52,058
is very strange because the perception of him in the outside world is he's this genocidal maniac

1025
00:59:52,058 --> 00:59:57,338
or whatever but in Liberia he's really loved by the people and essentially so he won the Liberian

1026
00:59:57,338 --> 01:00:04,178
Civil War won the election and then there was this lady called Ellen Johnson and she basically funded

1027
01:00:04,178 --> 01:00:10,478
these rebels in Sierra Leone to then go and invade Liberia and Charles Taylor's like there are these

1028
01:00:10,478 --> 01:00:15,898
rebels trying to invade me I've got to well you know I've got to get them back and so he goes in

1029
01:00:15,898 --> 01:00:20,778
Sierra Leone takes all the diamond fields obviously African wars are very brutal um

1030
01:00:21,738 --> 01:00:28,318
brutal things and um so then after this then he is then tried in the Hague for crimes against

1031
01:00:28,318 --> 01:00:34,258
humanity and then when he is tried Ellen Johnson the lady that funded the rebels in Sierra Leone

1032
01:00:34,258 --> 01:00:39,578
then ends up ruling the country and a lot of people in Liberia basically think because Charles

1033
01:00:39,578 --> 01:00:45,298
Taylor was like very um strict with like western influence about them taking materials and resources

1034
01:00:45,298 --> 01:00:49,938
in Liberia. And essentially, there was so many people that did such horrific acts during the

1035
01:00:49,938 --> 01:00:54,318
Liberian Civil War, but only Charles Taylor was imprisoned, specifically because he was the

1036
01:00:54,318 --> 01:00:58,338
president. So not to say that he shouldn't be in prison, but the fact if he should be in prison,

1037
01:00:58,438 --> 01:01:04,658
many other people should be in prison as well. But it was only to take him out. So anyway, yes,

1038
01:01:04,778 --> 01:01:09,358
Andy wanted me to interview him. And I didn't have managed to interview him, but I have interviewed

1039
01:01:09,358 --> 01:01:13,958
his children. Because when Charles Taylor went to prison for crimes against humanity,

1040
01:01:13,958 --> 01:01:19,118
his children, one of them at least, lived with the Landy family in Dubai.

1041
01:01:19,618 --> 01:01:22,358
Wait a minute, but this is nothing to do with seasteading now.

1042
01:01:22,558 --> 01:01:26,478
Is it in the film, just as an interesting trip?

1043
01:01:27,098 --> 01:01:29,658
But what's it got to do with seasteading, or has it nothing?

1044
01:01:30,378 --> 01:01:33,778
No, no. So I would say the film is, it's called The Legend of Landy,

1045
01:01:33,838 --> 01:01:35,778
and it is of course about Landy's seasteading attempt.

1046
01:01:36,198 --> 01:01:39,738
But I would say that it is more broadly about freedom.

1047
01:01:39,738 --> 01:01:45,158
and because I think even with seasteading is that it's fine to come up with engineering designs but

1048
01:01:45,158 --> 01:01:50,658
you kind of have to have some kind of like spiritual drive to do something like to create

1049
01:01:50,658 --> 01:01:56,398
a new city or a new country usually these these founders will there'll be like these mythic founders

1050
01:01:56,398 --> 01:02:00,538
you know like Romulus founding Rome or whatever like every city has these these figures you know

1051
01:02:00,538 --> 01:02:04,578
you walk around London and you see um you know Trafalgar Square and any kind of movement needs

1052
01:02:04,578 --> 01:02:10,398
these kind of heroes so that's kind of how i hope that landy will be as uh as i'll explain now you

1053
01:02:10,398 --> 01:02:15,598
know i think you could call him the first martyr for seasteading so essentially yes we're i i leave

1054
01:02:15,598 --> 01:02:19,318
the barge we're exchanging all these messages he's telling about liberia he's telling about

1055
01:02:19,318 --> 01:02:25,558
these adventures i should have and i'm getting ready to go and uh join him um in january of 20

1056
01:02:25,558 --> 01:02:27,698
of 2023.

1057
01:02:28,198 --> 01:02:29,518
Second, so on the bar again.

1058
01:02:29,998 --> 01:02:31,198
Yes, yeah, yeah.

1059
01:02:31,938 --> 01:02:35,598
And so, sorry, sorry, I'm 2024.

1060
01:02:36,598 --> 01:02:38,878
And so, you know, I'm getting ready to return

1061
01:02:38,878 --> 01:02:41,978
and Landy stops replying to my messages.

1062
01:02:42,318 --> 01:02:43,718
I suppose it's been this common thread

1063
01:02:43,718 --> 01:02:45,638
of when someone stops responding to my messages,

1064
01:02:45,758 --> 01:02:46,958
well, I've just got to go and find them.

1065
01:02:47,438 --> 01:02:50,698
But this time was different because, yeah,

1066
01:02:50,698 --> 01:02:52,038
he doesn't reply to me for about a week

1067
01:02:52,038 --> 01:02:53,738
and, you know, it's kind of unlike him.

1068
01:02:53,738 --> 01:02:55,878
and then I get this call from his daughter

1069
01:02:55,878 --> 01:02:57,998
and she says there's been this giant storm

1070
01:02:57,998 --> 01:03:00,398
and his barge has been ripped apart

1071
01:03:00,398 --> 01:03:03,398
and his body has washed ashore in Dubai.

1072
01:03:03,798 --> 01:03:04,238
Really?

1073
01:03:04,378 --> 01:03:05,618
And it was found...

1074
01:03:05,618 --> 01:03:06,218
Would that happen?

1075
01:03:06,958 --> 01:03:08,518
Well, that's this question.

1076
01:03:09,138 --> 01:03:10,998
The body at least was found naked

1077
01:03:10,998 --> 01:03:12,618
with all of the skin removed.

1078
01:03:12,718 --> 01:03:15,198
The only bit remaining was the tip of his pinky.

1079
01:03:16,278 --> 01:03:18,018
And so they were able to identify him

1080
01:03:18,018 --> 01:03:19,638
through his pinky

1081
01:03:19,638 --> 01:03:21,698
and then they did a DNA test

1082
01:03:21,698 --> 01:03:22,818
to know if it was really him.

1083
01:03:23,738 --> 01:03:26,538
and the use of son's DNA and the body's DNA.

1084
01:03:27,218 --> 01:03:29,038
And then Landy's lawyer told me the results of this

1085
01:03:29,038 --> 01:03:30,098
would never have been made public.

1086
01:03:30,778 --> 01:03:33,658
So I was thinking, wow, I mean, what the hell has happened?

1087
01:03:34,198 --> 01:03:35,578
Good film about freedom.

1088
01:03:36,078 --> 01:03:38,678
The ultimate freedom is to fake your own death, isn't it?

1089
01:03:38,778 --> 01:03:41,418
Well, I don't think he faked his own death necessarily,

1090
01:03:41,418 --> 01:03:43,898
but lots of people did think this for a while.

1091
01:03:45,338 --> 01:03:48,838
But I suppose it's this thing of, in any kind of movement,

1092
01:03:49,078 --> 01:03:53,698
if you want to actually propel it to its greatest possible

1093
01:03:53,698 --> 01:03:58,458
potential and you have people actually pushing at the frontiers necessarily when you're on the

1094
01:03:58,458 --> 01:04:03,418
frontiers things go wrong you know things break like for example if you want to go to space there

1095
01:04:03,418 --> 01:04:07,618
have been many astronauts that have gone up in rockets and then they've exploded after launch

1096
01:04:07,618 --> 01:04:12,698
like necessarily if this is what is required for any new movement is people that are willing to

1097
01:04:12,698 --> 01:04:18,298
to push things uh forward so at this point in time i thought well you know i hope that what my film

1098
01:04:18,298 --> 01:04:23,298
was going to be at the beginning is i hope that i would go out to landy's um you know floating city

1099
01:04:23,298 --> 01:04:25,158
over many years and more people would come.

1100
01:04:25,278 --> 01:04:27,718
And I thought I would be like his PR man, you know,

1101
01:04:27,758 --> 01:04:30,378
like through my film, other people would join him,

1102
01:04:30,778 --> 01:04:31,658
more barges would come.

1103
01:04:31,878 --> 01:04:34,178
And after this, I thought, well, you know,

1104
01:04:34,198 --> 01:04:35,358
I've got to find out about Landy.

1105
01:04:36,158 --> 01:04:39,958
So it was this point in time that I then go to Italy,

1106
01:04:40,158 --> 01:04:40,978
meet a lot of his friends.

1107
01:04:41,298 --> 01:04:41,878
I see.

1108
01:04:42,038 --> 01:04:44,558
So we're only halfway through the film really at this point

1109
01:04:44,558 --> 01:04:45,898
when he dies.

1110
01:04:46,358 --> 01:04:46,758
Okay, right.

1111
01:04:46,758 --> 01:04:48,838
So most of the film has happened since then.

1112
01:04:49,098 --> 01:04:50,058
And since then, of course, I mean,

1113
01:04:50,058 --> 01:04:51,598
there's a lot of people in the seasteading world

1114
01:04:51,598 --> 01:04:53,118
that all look up to Landy.

1115
01:04:53,298 --> 01:04:56,958
and things like Mitchell Suchner.

1116
01:04:57,258 --> 01:04:58,918
He was in contact with Landy a lot,

1117
01:04:59,098 --> 01:05:01,378
and they had plans to collaborate in the future.

1118
01:05:01,798 --> 01:05:04,558
Joe Quirk was messaging Landy for a long time.

1119
01:05:04,638 --> 01:05:07,598
He's someone that he knew all these people in the wider seasteading world.

1120
01:05:08,038 --> 01:05:09,898
So since then, I've been going to Ocean Builders,

1121
01:05:10,298 --> 01:05:11,418
spent a lot of time with Joe.

1122
01:05:11,678 --> 01:05:14,918
It's almost like through the other stories of seasteading,

1123
01:05:15,258 --> 01:05:17,798
we also find more about Landy's spirit

1124
01:05:17,798 --> 01:05:21,718
and the way in which this movement continues without him

1125
01:05:21,718 --> 01:05:23,338
and the fact that he had on people.

1126
01:05:23,778 --> 01:05:24,718
I'll be honest with you.

1127
01:05:25,158 --> 01:05:27,198
I mean, as someone who, you know,

1128
01:05:27,278 --> 01:05:31,178
I've dipped my toes into the sea-stealing world a few times.

1129
01:05:31,758 --> 01:05:32,818
First of all, I'd heard of him.

1130
01:05:33,018 --> 01:05:36,538
It was when, I think, I don't know why I got an email from you,

1131
01:05:36,598 --> 01:05:38,538
but I think it was about the film.

1132
01:05:39,098 --> 01:05:41,618
I think you were looking for probably investment or something.

1133
01:05:42,278 --> 01:05:44,218
And yeah, I'd never heard of him.

1134
01:05:44,998 --> 01:05:46,638
I'm surprised, like I say.

1135
01:05:46,858 --> 01:05:48,578
I speak to Joe quite a lot.

1136
01:05:48,578 --> 01:05:53,818
and he just forgets to tell me really important things like that, for example.

1137
01:05:54,258 --> 01:05:56,938
Like I've spoken to, I've had nine hours of conversations with him.

1138
01:05:57,238 --> 01:05:58,698
He's never mentioned Landy once.

1139
01:05:59,058 --> 01:06:01,798
He sounds like he's one of the central characters in the whole thing.

1140
01:06:01,858 --> 01:06:02,758
Maybe it's because he died.

1141
01:06:03,358 --> 01:06:05,578
Maybe he doesn't want to give a, you know,

1142
01:06:06,198 --> 01:06:09,218
tell the story of a seasteader who ends up basically dying

1143
01:06:09,218 --> 01:06:11,698
because, you know, that's not good PR at the beginning.

1144
01:06:12,078 --> 01:06:15,318
Well, I mean, you know, Joe has written about some lots on the seasteading,

1145
01:06:15,318 --> 01:06:16,658
his website.

1146
01:06:16,658 --> 01:06:18,278
I suppose maybe Joe is

1147
01:06:18,278 --> 01:06:20,838
what's the word

1148
01:06:20,838 --> 01:06:23,018
I'm not sure perhaps being chivalrous or something

1149
01:06:23,018 --> 01:06:24,738
perhaps he sees it as my story to tell

1150
01:06:24,738 --> 01:06:25,918
so he feels

1151
01:06:25,918 --> 01:06:28,998
but yeah I think that ultimately for any kind of movement

1152
01:06:28,998 --> 01:06:31,578
you need these kind of early heroic figures

1153
01:06:31,578 --> 01:06:32,978
these people that risk their lives

1154
01:06:32,978 --> 01:06:34,358
for something much greater

1155
01:06:34,358 --> 01:06:36,478
and Landy saw this as this

1156
01:06:36,478 --> 01:06:38,298
whole new opportunity for humanity

1157
01:06:38,298 --> 01:06:40,158
and he thought well instead of

1158
01:06:40,158 --> 01:06:42,658
waiting for the perfect time

1159
01:06:42,658 --> 01:06:44,458
I will try and do this thing

1160
01:06:44,458 --> 01:06:46,958
and he said that all the successive attempts

1161
01:06:46,958 --> 01:06:48,758
are likely to be far better than mine.

1162
01:06:49,258 --> 01:06:50,698
Like, all I want to do is just try.

1163
01:06:51,158 --> 01:06:52,678
You know, why not risk your life

1164
01:06:52,678 --> 01:06:55,618
for some bright future on the ocean?

1165
01:06:55,838 --> 01:06:58,338
So we're sure then that there was a big storm

1166
01:06:58,338 --> 01:06:59,738
and the boat sank

1167
01:06:59,738 --> 01:07:03,158
and is that pretty much true?

1168
01:07:03,678 --> 01:07:04,578
I know it's true.

1169
01:07:04,818 --> 01:07:05,158
All right.

1170
01:07:05,438 --> 01:07:07,898
So the reason why I can be very sure about this

1171
01:07:07,898 --> 01:07:11,938
is that, so obviously one would think

1172
01:07:11,938 --> 01:07:13,198
at this point in the story

1173
01:07:13,198 --> 01:07:15,198
that I would never return to the barge.

1174
01:07:15,518 --> 01:07:16,778
Obviously, it's been destroyed.

1175
01:07:18,158 --> 01:07:21,398
So there was a whole period where we're thinking,

1176
01:07:21,498 --> 01:07:23,198
well, we want to go back to the barge,

1177
01:07:23,358 --> 01:07:26,238
and we want to film the wreckage of it on the bottom of the ocean.

1178
01:07:26,518 --> 01:07:27,338
Oh, cool.

1179
01:07:27,438 --> 01:07:28,658
So for a long time...

1180
01:07:28,658 --> 01:07:30,258
So it's not too deep there, I suppose.

1181
01:07:30,818 --> 01:07:32,798
No, in the Gulf, it never gets very deep.

1182
01:07:32,978 --> 01:07:37,098
I think it's about 30 meters, or actually, it is exactly 30 meters,

1183
01:07:37,558 --> 01:07:39,058
where the wreckage, where we found it.

1184
01:07:39,578 --> 01:07:40,758
I think the deepest it gets to is...

1185
01:07:40,758 --> 01:07:41,758
Wow, you found the wreckage?

1186
01:07:41,778 --> 01:07:42,398
Yes, yeah.

1187
01:07:42,398 --> 01:07:43,178
Holy shit.

1188
01:07:43,218 --> 01:07:47,338
Yes, and filmed it impeccably, like it is.

1189
01:07:48,458 --> 01:07:52,238
I mean, this is pretty grim to ask, but did you see any bodies down there?

1190
01:07:52,398 --> 01:07:52,598
No.

1191
01:07:52,598 --> 01:07:56,998
Did UAE or Iran or anyone, did they send anyone out there to look for bodies?

1192
01:07:57,158 --> 01:08:01,558
Or is it because, I mean, in a way, it's an interesting test of the thesis of,

1193
01:08:01,978 --> 01:08:04,358
are they really in the middle of nowhere?

1194
01:08:04,958 --> 01:08:08,118
Like, did anyone show any interest in the fact that some people died there?

1195
01:08:08,118 --> 01:08:11,938
so the thing with the uae i suppose is they are

1196
01:08:11,938 --> 01:08:19,118
quite secretive about things you know it's not as if they have a totally open and free press maybe

1197
01:08:19,118 --> 01:08:22,638
it doesn't exist anywhere but anyway with the uae it definitely doesn't so there was there was

1198
01:08:22,638 --> 01:08:28,278
nothing really on in the news about this there was so there's um let's see uh yes so landy on

1199
01:08:28,278 --> 01:08:35,418
board and five people on board and these guys indian guys yes so landy's body was um they say

1200
01:08:35,418 --> 01:08:41,438
it was found there was another body one person is unaccounted for and there were two survivors

1201
01:08:41,438 --> 01:08:51,238
really yes jesus what did they do swim so i i managed well i i so i i had heard um

1202
01:08:51,238 --> 01:08:56,418
so yeah one of the one of the survivors um you know of course i became good friends with him

1203
01:08:56,418 --> 01:09:00,558
and um i had heard that there were two survivors but i wasn't quite sure who it was

1204
01:09:00,558 --> 01:09:01,898
but I knew their names

1205
01:09:01,898 --> 01:09:04,898
so I then just started searching the internet

1206
01:09:04,898 --> 01:09:06,178
if I could find any trace of them

1207
01:09:06,178 --> 01:09:07,918
and find their family members

1208
01:09:07,918 --> 01:09:08,898
so both of the survivors

1209
01:09:08,898 --> 01:09:11,218
I both found a lot of their family members online

1210
01:09:11,218 --> 01:09:14,018
and so I start sending messages to them

1211
01:09:14,018 --> 01:09:17,498
and I managed to get in contact with one of them

1212
01:09:17,498 --> 01:09:18,218
called Jeffrin

1213
01:09:18,218 --> 01:09:19,998
who is from Tamil Nadu

1214
01:09:19,998 --> 01:09:22,298
so

1215
01:09:22,298 --> 01:09:24,198
yeah

1216
01:09:24,198 --> 01:09:25,998
I suppose I felt like kind of a detective

1217
01:09:25,998 --> 01:09:26,998
or something at this point

1218
01:09:26,998 --> 01:09:27,918
it was kind of fun

1219
01:09:27,918 --> 01:09:30,438
it was almost like living out this sort of boyhood fantasy

1220
01:09:30,438 --> 01:09:35,498
and yeah so i found jeffrey and then i went to go and you know interview him and get his his

1221
01:09:35,498 --> 01:09:42,298
account of everything being destroyed so can you go into that and can you yeah well that's incredible

1222
01:09:42,298 --> 01:09:46,538
so how did they get back how did the two survivors get back to the shore for example

1223
01:09:46,538 --> 01:09:53,978
so the accident happened february the 2nd of 2024 and there was at this point in time in dubai

1224
01:09:53,978 --> 01:09:58,258
there was actually a lot of flooding going on it was kind of like storm season in this northern

1225
01:09:58,258 --> 01:10:05,098
part of the Indian Ocean. And so yeah, it was 5pm. And you know, it's stormy and they, you know,

1226
01:10:05,298 --> 01:10:11,898
Landy tells everyone to like tie everything down on board. And Jefferyn, he hears this huge crack

1227
01:10:11,898 --> 01:10:17,498
on the side of the barge. And he goes to investigate. And he tells Landy and this crack

1228
01:10:17,498 --> 01:10:24,558
is getting larger and larger and larger. And until the barge splits in two. So as an aside,

1229
01:10:24,558 --> 01:10:30,758
before I continue with the story is that people assume that if you build something larger on the

1230
01:10:30,758 --> 01:10:35,978
ocean it is necessarily more stable but that is actually very much not the case especially for

1231
01:10:35,978 --> 01:10:41,338
for large objects it's much better to go deeper I mean the way to see this is if you imagine like

1232
01:10:41,338 --> 01:10:46,618
there's you know a wave like this kind of shape if you have a barge on here and it's on the on

1233
01:10:46,618 --> 01:10:51,258
the crest of the wave there is a huge amount of force in the middle that can split the barge in

1234
01:10:51,258 --> 01:10:55,918
half where it'd be much better to have a barge that was half as long and it can actually slide

1235
01:10:55,918 --> 01:11:01,038
down the wave when things are too big there's actually a lot more forces that can destroy them

1236
01:11:01,038 --> 01:11:06,058
so in what you kind of want to take ocean builders approach of the way to get stability is not to

1237
01:11:06,058 --> 01:11:13,478
build um wide is to build deep first um so actually as also as kind of an interesting aside

1238
01:11:13,478 --> 01:11:20,818
is that this is the same way that whales sleep in the ocean it's much more stable and so there's

1239
01:11:20,818 --> 01:11:24,338
this thing called moment of inertia, where, you know, if you try and balance a pencil on your

1240
01:11:24,338 --> 01:11:28,658
finger, it's very difficult. If you try and balance a broomstick, it's very easy. And actually,

1241
01:11:28,718 --> 01:11:33,938
as things get larger, they get more stable. So for example, reusable rockets, the larger they get,

1242
01:11:34,198 --> 01:11:39,178
actually, the easier it is to land them, because they have a greater moment of inertia, it requires

1243
01:11:39,178 --> 01:11:44,398
more force to off-balance them. So it's kind of a nice observation about whales, and then seasteads,

1244
01:11:44,398 --> 01:11:48,678
and also reusable rockets. And then of course, there is this narrative of one of the most

1245
01:11:48,678 --> 01:11:53,298
important use cases for seasteading could be taking us into space because there is so much

1246
01:11:53,298 --> 01:11:58,878
regulation around launching rockets on the land that, you know, Elon Musk does now have a lot of

1247
01:11:58,878 --> 01:12:03,778
his launch sites on the ocean. So this perhaps could be the most important use case for seasteading

1248
01:12:03,778 --> 01:12:07,978
because the safest place to build seasteads is on the equator. And the equator is also the spot

1249
01:12:07,978 --> 01:12:13,538
which you need the smallest payload to get into orbit. So perhaps this could be in the future if,

1250
01:12:13,538 --> 01:12:18,998
governments get far more oppressive in their regulations towards space, like the oceans and

1251
01:12:18,998 --> 01:12:23,938
sea staying could be the way in which we get there. But anyway, back to the story. So the barge is

1252
01:12:23,938 --> 01:12:31,618
cracked in two. And so Landy is someone that he's always joking, you know, even in dire straits,

1253
01:12:32,198 --> 01:12:37,338
as it turned out, even in the face of death, his personality didn't really change. So Geoffrey said

1254
01:12:37,338 --> 01:12:42,178
that, you know, Landy was he told everyone to get life jackets on, get wetsuits on, and the barge

1255
01:12:42,178 --> 01:12:47,118
split into two and he said that Landy was joking about it's fine because beforehand they had one

1256
01:12:47,118 --> 01:12:52,418
barge and now they've got two barges you know we've increased our number of barges and Landy

1257
01:12:52,418 --> 01:12:56,878
was cracking jokes trying to get everyone to um you know remain calm and you know they're getting

1258
01:12:56,878 --> 01:13:02,678
Landy like can you call someone for help and and um yeah there was no mobile signal you know the

1259
01:13:02,678 --> 01:13:07,098
Starlink had been destroyed and after a while um when they were gathered on the back you know it's

1260
01:13:07,098 --> 01:13:11,658
starting to get dark you know the waves and the wind are increasing and and he said that the barge

1261
01:13:11,658 --> 01:13:13,238
flipped over.

1262
01:13:13,658 --> 01:13:15,198
So everyone is thrown into the water.

1263
01:13:16,758 --> 01:13:19,098
And, yeah, Jeffren, in his interviews, he says,

1264
01:13:19,638 --> 01:13:22,278
in that moment also, he was smiling.

1265
01:13:22,898 --> 01:13:24,158
You know, he said, Landy.

1266
01:13:24,158 --> 01:13:24,878
He was, or Landy.

1267
01:13:24,958 --> 01:13:27,038
So Landy was bleeding for his head, and he said,

1268
01:13:28,038 --> 01:13:29,958
ah, it's nothing, just a bit of blood.

1269
01:13:30,058 --> 01:13:32,538
And then Jeffren says, with the smile, just a bit of blood.

1270
01:13:32,538 --> 01:13:35,258
So anyway, Landy stayed near the barge,

1271
01:13:35,778 --> 01:13:38,378
and then Jeffren and the other survivor called J-Lord,

1272
01:13:38,858 --> 01:13:40,478
they hold on to Driftwood.

1273
01:13:40,478 --> 01:13:43,998
and they're sort of latched on like this

1274
01:13:43,998 --> 01:13:45,618
and they get blown towards Dubai,

1275
01:13:45,778 --> 01:13:46,518
sort of into the dark.

1276
01:13:47,038 --> 01:13:48,618
And actually, Jeffren couldn't actually swim,

1277
01:13:49,218 --> 01:13:51,678
but he was wearing a wetsuit and a life jacket

1278
01:13:51,678 --> 01:13:53,398
and they were just holding onto this driftwood.

1279
01:13:54,478 --> 01:13:57,138
And yeah, you imagine for 18 hours

1280
01:13:57,138 --> 01:13:58,918
being blown through the night.

1281
01:13:59,058 --> 01:14:01,098
Oh God, it's my worst nightmare, mate.

1282
01:14:01,238 --> 01:14:03,198
And they were saying that literally

1283
01:14:03,198 --> 01:14:04,818
that they couldn't swim

1284
01:14:04,818 --> 01:14:06,218
or like they couldn't even move.

1285
01:14:06,338 --> 01:14:08,358
You know, he said his muscles were like so tight,

1286
01:14:08,738 --> 01:14:09,718
just locked in like this.

1287
01:14:09,718 --> 01:14:14,138
And the only thing they would do is like move to one side to help keep it balanced.

1288
01:14:14,618 --> 01:14:16,598
And so anyway, they're getting blown through.

1289
01:14:16,998 --> 01:14:21,998
And then they see these ships off in the horizon the next day.

1290
01:14:22,178 --> 01:14:23,878
And they try and like wave to them or whatever.

1291
01:14:23,998 --> 01:14:25,318
But they're getting blown the other direction.

1292
01:14:25,418 --> 01:14:26,318
The ships don't see them.

1293
01:14:26,858 --> 01:14:28,058
They keep getting blown along.

1294
01:14:28,758 --> 01:14:30,398
And then just as I said, you know, they didn't swim.

1295
01:14:30,498 --> 01:14:32,778
Because if they lost any, if they started swimming, they'd lose energy.

1296
01:14:33,378 --> 01:14:35,818
And then, yeah, they see the ship that's like quite near to them.

1297
01:14:36,218 --> 01:14:38,498
And then J-Lord says to Geoffrey, you know, this is our last chance.

1298
01:14:38,818 --> 01:14:39,618
We've got to swim.

1299
01:14:39,718 --> 01:14:42,718
Is it? And at this point the sea died down a bit?

1300
01:14:42,718 --> 01:14:49,198
It's died down a bit, yes. I mean, it's still rough weather. And strangely enough, I actually

1301
01:14:49,198 --> 01:14:54,998
found a picture online of them being rescued. We managed to find the exact ship, because

1302
01:14:54,998 --> 01:15:00,218
the thing is that all ships on the ocean have these AIS tracking numbers. And we knew that

1303
01:15:00,264 --> 01:15:02,324
the rough coordinates of the barge.

1304
01:15:03,044 --> 01:15:07,304
And then we could see which boats were near Dubai at that time.

1305
01:15:07,364 --> 01:15:08,784
So we managed to pinpoint the exact boat

1306
01:15:08,784 --> 01:15:11,904
and also the exact time that Geoffrey said.

1307
01:15:12,644 --> 01:15:14,964
So that way we could also know the direction of the current,

1308
01:15:15,304 --> 01:15:19,084
which also then aided with our search plan for the barge

1309
01:15:19,084 --> 01:15:21,844
because we would know which way the currents were going at that point in time.

1310
01:15:22,964 --> 01:15:25,944
And then you found the crew and then you got their mobile phones

1311
01:15:25,944 --> 01:15:27,384
and you realised that this...

1312
01:15:27,384 --> 01:15:31,684
Yeah, so they were then, obviously all of their, you know, mobile phones and stuff, everything was totally destroyed.

1313
01:15:32,184 --> 01:15:34,044
No, but I mean to get a picture of them.

1314
01:15:34,044 --> 01:15:34,584
Oh, yes.

1315
01:15:34,704 --> 01:15:35,624
Where do you find the picture?

1316
01:15:35,964 --> 01:15:36,324
LinkedIn.

1317
01:15:36,944 --> 01:15:37,204
Yes.

1318
01:15:37,544 --> 01:15:38,284
Oh, my God.

1319
01:15:38,364 --> 01:15:40,604
Someone just said, oh, look, we found these crazy guys.

1320
01:15:40,764 --> 01:15:41,164
Yes.

1321
01:15:41,304 --> 01:15:46,784
So the captain of the boat, like there's this whole like photo shoot with the crew and they've all got these certificates.

1322
01:15:47,304 --> 01:15:49,124
And he's saying, you know, I'm so proud of my team.

1323
01:15:49,204 --> 01:15:52,484
Like they acted really decisively and rescued these two guys.

1324
01:15:52,644 --> 01:15:55,104
And yeah, he did this whole LinkedIn post for his company.

1325
01:15:55,104 --> 01:15:56,044
and then we found that

1326
01:15:56,044 --> 01:15:57,304
and then found them

1327
01:15:57,304 --> 01:15:58,564
when you see them

1328
01:15:58,564 --> 01:15:59,604
you know with their life jackets

1329
01:15:59,604 --> 01:16:00,844
kind of up above their heads

1330
01:16:00,844 --> 01:16:01,744
and they're sort of

1331
01:16:01,744 --> 01:16:02,944
just keeping up above the water

1332
01:16:02,944 --> 01:16:04,684
and they left the driftwood

1333
01:16:04,684 --> 01:16:05,524
and just started swimming.

1334
01:16:05,644 --> 01:16:06,924
So this guy had taken some shots

1335
01:16:06,924 --> 01:16:08,604
when they were being saved.

1336
01:16:08,744 --> 01:16:09,284
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1337
01:16:09,304 --> 01:16:09,504
Brilliant.

1338
01:16:09,944 --> 01:16:11,504
So yes, have those two shots

1339
01:16:11,504 --> 01:16:12,644
and then a picture of the crew.

1340
01:16:13,664 --> 01:16:15,564
And so yeah

1341
01:16:15,564 --> 01:16:16,084
and then you know

1342
01:16:16,084 --> 01:16:17,804
Jefferyn went back to India

1343
01:16:17,804 --> 01:16:19,124
and obviously like I did

1344
01:16:19,124 --> 01:16:20,624
I think I did have his phone number

1345
01:16:20,624 --> 01:16:21,904
but obviously his phone

1346
01:16:21,904 --> 01:16:23,204
and SIM card is totally destroyed

1347
01:16:23,204 --> 01:16:24,964
so I managed to find his brothers

1348
01:16:24,964 --> 01:16:30,004
on instagram and reached out to them and then i you know flew out and and found out this aspect

1349
01:16:30,004 --> 01:16:36,864
of the story yes but the thing about it which i found quite i suppose endearing in a way is that

1350
01:16:36,864 --> 01:16:42,324
you know even in death like landy didn't change almost like that's how you can tell who someone

1351
01:16:42,324 --> 01:16:47,424
really is like when you're being tested in this way i suppose it's this kind of this

1352
01:16:47,424 --> 01:16:53,764
i don't know this sort of like spiritual aspect of like being a warrior is that in every moment

1353
01:16:53,764 --> 01:16:57,704
you're being tested you know are you a courageous individual are you a coward and like what do you

1354
01:16:57,704 --> 01:17:01,804
do when you're faced by you know your impending death are you a chicken are you are you afraid

1355
01:17:01,804 --> 01:17:06,164
or something but Landy was he was still the same you know keeping up morale and he did say in his

1356
01:17:06,164 --> 01:17:11,264
interviews he said I will die at sea for sure I'm not going back so for me that the film is that

1357
01:17:11,264 --> 01:17:17,924
it's not necessarily a sad story about someone dying it's about someone that had this this this

1358
01:17:17,924 --> 01:17:23,024
this dream that they believed in more than life itself quite literally he was quite happy to die

1359
01:17:23,024 --> 01:17:25,524
for this dream for what might have happened.

1360
01:17:25,864 --> 01:17:30,024
So, yeah, I suppose it's making...

1361
01:17:30,904 --> 01:17:34,324
So after you've shot all this,

1362
01:17:34,484 --> 01:17:39,584
the rest of the film is about us finding out who Landy is

1363
01:17:39,584 --> 01:17:43,344
and his life and what drove him, presumably.

1364
01:17:43,964 --> 01:17:46,144
Yes, that is one aspect of it.

1365
01:17:46,784 --> 01:17:49,484
So, yeah, and also we found the wreckage.

1366
01:17:49,484 --> 01:17:49,804
Yeah.

1367
01:17:49,804 --> 01:17:50,724
and

1368
01:17:50,724 --> 01:17:52,004
and what

1369
01:17:52,004 --> 01:17:53,044
dive down

1370
01:17:53,044 --> 01:17:53,724
it was too deep

1371
01:17:53,724 --> 01:17:54,144
to dive

1372
01:17:54,144 --> 01:17:54,884
no no no

1373
01:17:54,884 --> 01:17:55,904
30 metres

1374
01:17:55,904 --> 01:17:56,724
is fine

1375
01:17:56,724 --> 01:17:57,344
yeah I've been

1376
01:17:57,344 --> 01:17:58,084
to 40 metres

1377
01:17:58,084 --> 01:17:58,464
you're right

1378
01:17:58,464 --> 01:17:59,304
yeah I mean

1379
01:17:59,304 --> 01:18:00,304
divers can go down

1380
01:18:00,304 --> 01:18:01,364
to I don't know

1381
01:18:01,364 --> 01:18:02,104
they can go very deep

1382
01:18:02,104 --> 01:18:02,464
you know hundreds

1383
01:18:02,464 --> 01:18:02,784
of metres

1384
01:18:02,784 --> 01:18:04,204
with the right

1385
01:18:04,204 --> 01:18:04,564
equipment

1386
01:18:04,564 --> 01:18:05,584
so anyway

1387
01:18:05,584 --> 01:18:06,224
then we did this

1388
01:18:06,224 --> 01:18:06,824
kind of whole

1389
01:18:06,824 --> 01:18:08,244
search for the barge

1390
01:18:08,244 --> 01:18:09,504
and you know

1391
01:18:09,504 --> 01:18:09,984
we'd contact

1392
01:18:09,984 --> 01:18:10,404
all these

1393
01:18:10,404 --> 01:18:11,164
wreck hunters

1394
01:18:11,164 --> 01:18:11,724
and ask them

1395
01:18:11,724 --> 01:18:12,284
for strategies

1396
01:18:12,284 --> 01:18:13,564
and a friend of mine

1397
01:18:13,564 --> 01:18:14,164
that's helping me

1398
01:18:14,164 --> 01:18:14,664
out with a project

1399
01:18:14,664 --> 01:18:15,084
like we

1400
01:18:15,084 --> 01:18:16,144
like we both

1401
01:18:16,144 --> 01:18:16,904
studied sort of maths

1402
01:18:16,904 --> 01:18:17,524
and computer science

1403
01:18:17,524 --> 01:18:17,984
at university

1404
01:18:17,984 --> 01:18:18,804
so it was kind of fun

1405
01:18:18,804 --> 01:18:19,144
it was like

1406
01:18:19,144 --> 01:18:23,124
designing this whole search pattern and then getting people to go and search for it with sonar

1407
01:18:23,124 --> 01:18:29,044
and um it was also quite strange because we'd keep like i'm getting people to go and search for it and

1408
01:18:29,044 --> 01:18:32,704
then they would just stop replying to us so we had to keep finding new people to search it was

1409
01:18:32,704 --> 01:18:40,164
it's kind of strange anyway um so eventually we we found it and then we found a like people that

1410
01:18:40,164 --> 01:18:44,824
specialize in underwater cinematography to go and film it and again like we were trying to raise

1411
01:18:44,824 --> 01:18:49,004
money and we weren't raising enough money and all the rest of it and it meant that we didn't end up

1412
01:18:49,004 --> 01:18:55,164
actually filming the barge, the wreckage, until I think it was around maybe 18 months later perhaps.

1413
01:18:55,824 --> 01:18:59,944
And the thing was, is this was actually perfect. Because when we went down there, this thing had

1414
01:18:59,944 --> 01:19:05,984
became an oasis for life, covered in coral, and there was sea snakes and sharks. And this is one

1415
01:19:05,984 --> 01:19:10,524
of the arguments for seasteading that I hinted at earlier, is that whenever you build on land,

1416
01:19:10,704 --> 01:19:15,884
you destroy all the life that was there. But whenever you build on the ocean, it fosters life.

1417
01:19:15,884 --> 01:19:19,524
and Landy's Barge has become an oasis for life.

1418
01:19:19,644 --> 01:19:21,884
Like as soon as you go away from the barge,

1419
01:19:21,984 --> 01:19:25,204
it's just like sea and the sand and there's nothing at all.

1420
01:19:25,604 --> 01:19:27,424
But Landy's Barge has become this real oasis.

1421
01:19:27,584 --> 01:19:29,684
So there's some kind of poetic beauty in it.

1422
01:19:29,744 --> 01:19:34,004
And also one of these arguments for seasteading is that he may have died,

1423
01:19:34,004 --> 01:19:36,484
but all these animals have a new home.

1424
01:19:37,144 --> 01:19:41,384
Where did you find your divers then to dive to 30 means?

1425
01:19:41,664 --> 01:19:43,044
I've made a few films underwater.

1426
01:19:43,504 --> 01:19:43,844
Yeah, yeah.

1427
01:19:43,844 --> 01:19:47,744
I know there's a few guys around the world that do that kind of thing.

1428
01:19:47,844 --> 01:19:48,044
Yeah, yeah.

1429
01:19:48,104 --> 01:19:49,224
Well, I'll do a shout out for them.

1430
01:19:49,304 --> 01:19:50,684
They're called Scarlet View Media.

1431
01:19:50,984 --> 01:19:51,384
Oh, right.

1432
01:19:51,624 --> 01:19:54,724
And yeah, this sort of team of British divers.

1433
01:19:55,624 --> 01:19:57,244
And I suppose it's another one of those things.

1434
01:19:57,384 --> 01:19:58,884
You know, you just do some research on the internet.

1435
01:19:59,544 --> 01:20:02,244
You know, compile a list of maybe 20 people that seem,

1436
01:20:02,844 --> 01:20:05,024
or 20 companies that seem competent and then email them

1437
01:20:05,024 --> 01:20:06,524
and, you know, you find the best fit.

1438
01:20:07,644 --> 01:20:11,204
But you sound like you are very happy with what it looked like, you say.

1439
01:20:11,204 --> 01:20:11,884
Oh, yes.

1440
01:20:12,024 --> 01:20:12,584
No, really.

1441
01:20:12,584 --> 01:20:14,864
they did an incredible job, the divers.

1442
01:20:17,244 --> 01:20:18,684
And yeah, very just...

1443
01:20:18,684 --> 01:20:21,244
Did anyone find, I mean, did you find anything

1444
01:20:21,244 --> 01:20:24,864
unsettling down there or interesting or, you know?

1445
01:20:25,524 --> 01:20:28,864
Well, we found Landy's laptop.

1446
01:20:29,484 --> 01:20:30,224
We have his laptop.

1447
01:20:30,524 --> 01:20:34,484
That's kind of, have his laptop or have his mug.

1448
01:20:35,764 --> 01:20:38,024
What was actually very strange was,

1449
01:20:38,504 --> 01:20:40,284
you know, Landy would always be sitting in this swivel chair

1450
01:20:40,284 --> 01:20:41,924
doing his coding, whatever.

1451
01:20:42,584 --> 01:20:51,484
And, yeah, just seeing that, I mean, perhaps one of the last shots in the sequence, I imagine is, you know, you just, the camera's going above the sand and there's bare sand.

1452
01:20:51,844 --> 01:20:54,564
And then there's just this shot of his chair being covered in coral.

1453
01:20:54,944 --> 01:20:59,504
And then the sort of camera goes up and sort of up into the sky.

1454
01:20:59,604 --> 01:21:07,484
So very, just, yeah, it's so strange seeing this place where I'd walked around and now sunken and destroyed.

1455
01:21:07,604 --> 01:21:09,804
It was really something very strange.

1456
01:21:09,804 --> 01:21:16,924
no i yeah i love filming underwater i think it's i love being deep underwater as well it's just

1457
01:21:16,924 --> 01:21:26,144
so um nothing bothers you down there it's one of the best feelings in the world being down the only

1458
01:21:26,144 --> 01:21:32,844
trouble when you're filming is you i've i ran out of air once in in the philippines purely because i

1459
01:21:32,844 --> 01:21:38,104
was concentrating on what i was doing and got completely engrossed in it i was about 20 meters

1460
01:21:38,104 --> 01:21:44,964
down and i i realized fuck it's and i had to just shoot to the top i signaled we had some support

1461
01:21:44,964 --> 01:21:49,344
boats i signaled you know they gave me some air and i went straight back down again but

1462
01:21:49,344 --> 01:21:57,164
but um i do love being down there yeah we're making a film about um what was it called um

1463
01:21:57,164 --> 01:22:03,784
hooker pipe divers sorry second hooker pipe divers is that they're like uh fishermen who

1464
01:22:03,784 --> 01:22:09,984
basically use tubes that pump air down to them in the this was in the philippines oh wow it was

1465
01:22:09,984 --> 01:22:16,264
incredible it was called moroami it's a it's a fishing method where you get about 30 guys that

1466
01:22:16,264 --> 01:22:23,064
go down with with little pipes you know and just breathing through their mouth and they basically

1467
01:22:23,064 --> 01:22:31,444
all take a part of the net and then they just swim over the top of um coral reefs we were at

1468
01:22:31,444 --> 01:22:35,804
these are out to sea corals you get these little bit like what you're describing at about

1469
01:22:35,804 --> 01:22:41,424
40 meter depths you get these little islands of coral sometimes because all the coral inland has

1470
01:22:41,424 --> 01:22:46,244
been fished already and they just literally walk them across this thing and all the but all the

1471
01:22:46,244 --> 01:22:52,664
fish get trapped um but people yeah it was a it was a terribly dangerous method it's an illegal

1472
01:22:52,664 --> 01:22:58,664
fishing method but um we we got we stayed on one of those boats for like two weeks but yeah being

1473
01:22:58,664 --> 01:23:02,604
I don't know, I love the feeling of being underwater like that.

1474
01:23:03,024 --> 01:23:03,924
You don't dive yourself?

1475
01:23:05,484 --> 01:23:05,984
Very bit.

1476
01:23:06,024 --> 01:23:08,824
I don't have my, like, I do have my paddy qualification,

1477
01:23:09,044 --> 01:23:10,804
but I have not really a diver.

1478
01:23:11,024 --> 01:23:12,724
You didn't want to be there to direct it then?

1479
01:23:13,144 --> 01:23:14,784
Well, I suppose I was directing it from the boat.

1480
01:23:14,904 --> 01:23:17,424
So, I mean, we were filming it for 10 days in total.

1481
01:23:17,824 --> 01:23:19,164
So at the end of each day, we'd watch all the footage

1482
01:23:19,164 --> 01:23:20,984
and be chatting with the divers about what we wanted

1483
01:23:20,984 --> 01:23:21,784
and all the rest of it.

1484
01:23:21,904 --> 01:23:25,664
So I would like to go and dive at some point.

1485
01:23:25,704 --> 01:23:27,444
I think it would be this fun thing in the future,

1486
01:23:27,444 --> 01:23:35,864
you know to go down there um but yeah yeah so let's see what else um so we've okay now we're

1487
01:23:35,864 --> 01:23:42,044
looking into the landy backstory yeah so i suppose that the two major components is is the landy

1488
01:23:42,044 --> 01:23:48,504
backstory and also how the film will end are you allowed to i can tell you how the film will end

1489
01:23:48,504 --> 01:23:54,484
yes okay not gonna give too much away no no no no no uh i think it's it's the it's a similar thing

1490
01:23:54,484 --> 01:23:55,784
Well, I'll tell you.

1491
01:23:56,124 --> 01:23:57,784
Well, certainly you went to Liberia anyway,

1492
01:23:57,924 --> 01:24:02,284
because that was part of finding out why, you know, who he was and stuff.

1493
01:24:02,324 --> 01:24:05,044
So an interesting connection, at least with Liberia and seasteading,

1494
01:24:05,544 --> 01:24:11,104
is that, so I think the most common flag on the ocean is the Liberian flag.

1495
01:24:11,524 --> 01:24:13,244
So they have the biggest shipping registry,

1496
01:24:13,924 --> 01:24:15,904
because it's very easy to get a Liberian flag,

1497
01:24:15,944 --> 01:24:18,404
and they don't really police you anywhere around the world.

1498
01:24:18,764 --> 01:24:21,684
So Landy was flying the Liberian flag out in international waters,

1499
01:24:21,684 --> 01:24:25,304
and it is likely that if seasteads emerge,

1500
01:24:25,824 --> 01:24:27,604
the flag of Liberia would be a very good choice.

1501
01:24:28,344 --> 01:24:29,504
So there is this other connection with Liberia.

1502
01:24:29,504 --> 01:24:30,084
I've been there.

1503
01:24:30,464 --> 01:24:31,364
I've made some films.

1504
01:24:31,524 --> 01:24:32,204
In Liberia?

1505
01:24:32,264 --> 01:24:32,664
Yeah, yeah.

1506
01:24:32,664 --> 01:24:32,884
Really?

1507
01:24:32,884 --> 01:24:33,624
Years ago.

1508
01:24:33,804 --> 01:24:34,664
In what years?

1509
01:24:37,784 --> 01:24:38,804
God knows.

1510
01:24:39,284 --> 01:24:44,784
I'm going to guess 2010, maybe?

1511
01:24:44,804 --> 01:24:45,244
2010.

1512
01:24:45,764 --> 01:24:49,964
I mean, it was a pretty harsh place.

1513
01:24:49,964 --> 01:24:57,064
completely corrupt that was my experience we because i was i was working on behalf of a

1514
01:24:57,064 --> 01:25:06,284
um an ngo i was making a film for an ngo and everyone we met was it was it was it was a really

1515
01:25:06,284 --> 01:25:11,804
dastardly scenario there was is it monrovia there's a capital right in monrovia

1516
01:25:11,804 --> 01:25:20,864
is completely squalid mostly except for the five-star hotel where all the NGO people stay

1517
01:25:20,864 --> 01:25:26,044
and you and the UN headquarters there where everyone's driving these brand new things and

1518
01:25:26,044 --> 01:25:30,824
we and and one of our contacts they said oh you must come and meet the mayor you know of Monrovia

1519
01:25:30,824 --> 01:25:37,624
and I'm and and she showed us around this lavish you know like she wanted to show us this new room

1520
01:25:37,624 --> 01:25:41,664
she'd built a tv room with like walnut walls and all this kind of stuff and it was just like

1521
01:25:41,664 --> 01:25:48,124
this is all so wrong this is this is everything that's wrong about NGOs is they're funneling all

1522
01:25:48,124 --> 01:25:52,824
this money into this place and and I came away that was one of the last jobs I did for an NGO

1523
01:25:52,824 --> 01:25:57,064
actually I came away with a really bad taste in my mouth because even the projects they were

1524
01:25:57,064 --> 01:26:04,264
pushing were were really not um not something I that it was beyond what I thought NGOs should be

1525
01:26:04,264 --> 01:26:08,984
they were they were policy projects let's you know get them to grow these strains of rice or

1526
01:26:08,984 --> 01:26:14,784
let's build these things and you know i i preferred your films actually uh what were you what stories

1527
01:26:14,784 --> 01:26:23,584
were you covering in um i covered the first one was about um was about create it was such it just

1528
01:26:23,584 --> 01:26:30,524
was so stupid i hope they're not listening but um there was this project this ngo funding project

1529
01:26:30,524 --> 01:26:36,844
you know monrovia had no sewage uh system at all i don't it probably still doesn't now

1530
01:26:36,844 --> 01:26:42,504
like basically people were shitting everywhere like everywhere you went there were these kind

1531
01:26:42,504 --> 01:26:47,364
of places where people went to the toilet and it was disgusting obviously but it was just the way

1532
01:26:47,364 --> 01:26:51,864
things were because there was no way to to take this stuff away there was just no system for it

1533
01:26:51,864 --> 01:26:59,304
the beaches as well were just terrible yeah right everything and some bright spark in an NGO in the

1534
01:26:59,304 --> 01:27:04,824
UK that I won't mention had just come up with this great idea to do these composting toilets

1535
01:27:04,824 --> 01:27:07,044
with live worms living in them.

1536
01:27:07,164 --> 01:27:09,984
And this, you know, and it was just like,

1537
01:27:10,084 --> 01:27:11,284
oh, you know, you get out there

1538
01:27:11,284 --> 01:27:13,764
and you realize they built five or six of these things.

1539
01:27:14,204 --> 01:27:15,164
No one used them.

1540
01:27:15,784 --> 01:27:17,824
And the whole, all the money got funneled

1541
01:27:17,824 --> 01:27:18,744
into something else.

1542
01:27:18,844 --> 01:27:21,704
And people pocketed the money and blah, blah, blah.

1543
01:27:22,324 --> 01:27:25,624
And it was just one of those scammy NGO things

1544
01:27:25,624 --> 01:27:27,864
that most people don't realize a lot of the time.

1545
01:27:28,204 --> 01:27:30,624
This is what happens in these kind of organizations.

1546
01:27:31,044 --> 01:27:32,584
And it's not that these are nasty people.

1547
01:27:32,644 --> 01:27:34,124
These are well-meaning people in the UK

1548
01:27:34,124 --> 01:27:42,404
coming up with ideas i did another one once in um pakistan where they they had the refugee camps

1549
01:27:42,404 --> 01:27:49,744
they had this problem with people going out to the outside the uh the edges of the camp to go to the

1550
01:27:49,744 --> 01:27:55,504
toilet so they said right cool we're going to create all these like toilets so that they can

1551
01:27:55,504 --> 01:27:59,464
you know and we dig and they spent all this money building these things and obviously within a few

1552
01:27:59,464 --> 01:28:04,884
days they were rancid and no one cleaned them and and nothing happened so everyone was using

1553
01:28:04,884 --> 01:28:10,204
which wasn't a bad necessarily a bad idea because it was just what you did and early in the morning

1554
01:28:10,204 --> 01:28:15,064
you walk out to the edge of the desert out there you do your thing and you come back as soon as

1555
01:28:15,064 --> 01:28:18,844
they put it all in one place this idea was right this is going to be great because then we can have

1556
01:28:18,844 --> 01:28:23,764
a proper in you know there was no thought that maybe if no one no one wanted to clean them

1557
01:28:23,764 --> 01:28:28,364
because they were disgusting and within a few weeks they were completely use useless think you

1558
01:28:28,364 --> 01:28:34,084
no load of money pumped into that but yeah the liberia one was that was the compounding toilets

1559
01:28:34,084 --> 01:28:41,164
and then i did one the last one i did which just i realized this is wrong they were trying to get

1560
01:28:41,164 --> 01:28:48,384
inland farmers to change the kind of rice they used to this gm rice because it gave four crops

1561
01:28:48,384 --> 01:28:53,904
a year instead of two or something and i'm really suspect of things like that because i think like

1562
01:28:53,904 --> 01:28:59,844
just leave them alone i mean in in land it was actually it was actually a really lovely country

1563
01:28:59,844 --> 01:29:05,864
the roads obviously were unbelievable like they were all dirt roads and in the rainy season which

1564
01:29:05,864 --> 01:29:10,804
second time around we were there in the rainy season you can imagine i've got the the best

1565
01:29:10,804 --> 01:29:15,624
footage of trucks trying to get across these horrendous you know it's just one of those

1566
01:29:15,624 --> 01:29:27,624
countries that unfortunately you find just not working corrupt um no infrastructure just you know

1567
01:29:27,624 --> 01:29:32,524
i and i don't really know how you short of starting from scratch anyway this is a bit of a side

1568
01:29:32,524 --> 01:29:38,224
how did you find liberia did you like liberia i i love my time in liberia i don't think i would

1569
01:29:38,224 --> 01:29:43,124
recommend as a tourist destination no i do not mean either well i don't know i haven't been there

1570
01:29:43,124 --> 01:29:47,304
for a while but depends on what you're like i mean i i let's see i suppose to your point about the

1571
01:29:47,304 --> 01:29:51,544
composting toilets i found this quite amusing which is i stayed like pretty much next to the

1572
01:29:51,544 --> 01:29:56,744
president's house and uh on one of the walls next to his house like on the outside of his compound

1573
01:29:56,744 --> 01:30:01,064
there's this graffiti you see all over monrovia i saw it's probably 50 plus times it says

1574
01:30:01,064 --> 01:30:08,184
only dog allowed to pee pee here by the president's house um yeah liberia is interesting as well

1575
01:30:08,184 --> 01:30:11,724
because it has exactly the same constitution as the United States,

1576
01:30:12,044 --> 01:30:13,204
almost exactly the same.

1577
01:30:13,544 --> 01:30:16,884
And it's one of the longest independent African nations,

1578
01:30:17,104 --> 01:30:18,904
I believe the second after Ethiopia,

1579
01:30:19,404 --> 01:30:21,304
and it has a huge amount of natural resources.

1580
01:30:21,844 --> 01:30:24,464
So it's strange the way that it is.

1581
01:30:24,464 --> 01:30:28,824
Yeah, because almost the whole population lives in poverty, I would say.

1582
01:30:29,244 --> 01:30:30,084
Is that fair to say?

1583
01:30:30,184 --> 01:30:31,464
I mean, I can't...

1584
01:30:31,464 --> 01:30:32,564
Yeah.

1585
01:30:32,784 --> 01:30:34,504
It is one of the poorest nations in the world.

1586
01:30:35,204 --> 01:30:35,644
Yes.

1587
01:30:35,644 --> 01:30:41,924
but yeah let's see so in Liberia yes I met a lot of Landy's friends a lot of people in the

1588
01:30:41,924 --> 01:30:46,644
government that knew him of course what's the initial connection between Landy and Liberia

1589
01:30:46,644 --> 01:30:53,444
so even to go back a step so um we'll go into depth about Landy's past but it's of a sort of

1590
01:30:53,444 --> 01:30:58,704
broad overview is that you know he's born in the middle of Italy and as a young child he does a lot

1591
01:30:58,704 --> 01:31:03,904
of these motorcycle races all across Africa does the Paris de Car he's always had this early

1592
01:31:03,904 --> 01:31:08,744
adventurous spirit. And just like he kind of likes the frontiers of being out in Africa and

1593
01:31:08,744 --> 01:31:13,804
being in these dangerous places, he's also into the frontier of cyberspace, you know, creating

1594
01:31:13,804 --> 01:31:18,604
a VPN technology, like he would make these, when you probably remember them, you know, like payphone

1595
01:31:18,604 --> 01:31:23,104
cards or whatever, he was like among the first people making these in Italy. And then he makes

1596
01:31:23,104 --> 01:31:27,664
this telecoms company called Utilia, which lays all these fiber optic cables all across central

1597
01:31:27,664 --> 01:31:32,544
Italy. And in the space of, you know, about five years from basically nothing, it becomes the fourth

1598
01:31:32,544 --> 01:31:36,764
the largest telecoms company in Italy. And at least this is Landy's side of the story. I mean,

1599
01:31:37,324 --> 01:31:42,204
is that he said that he was his company was entering into a deal with Berlusconi,

1600
01:31:42,904 --> 01:31:47,444
where there'd be some kind of merger because, you know, Berlusconi, the president of this company

1601
01:31:47,444 --> 01:31:54,044
media set, and he's kind of this media mogul. And anyway, Samuele said that at the last minute,

1602
01:31:54,264 --> 01:31:59,344
Berlusconi pulled out of this deal, and then started accusing Samuele of like,

1603
01:31:59,344 --> 01:32:01,884
massive fines from the government.

1604
01:32:02,324 --> 01:32:05,604
And these fines are worth hundreds of millions of euros.

1605
01:32:06,464 --> 01:32:08,144
And so basically, from Samuele's perspective,

1606
01:32:08,244 --> 01:32:09,744
he feels like, you know, I create this big company.

1607
01:32:10,044 --> 01:32:12,224
I try to enter into a deal with the president.

1608
01:32:12,824 --> 01:32:13,664
Obviously, he's the president,

1609
01:32:13,664 --> 01:32:15,544
so he can basically get the courts to do whatever he likes.

1610
01:32:16,124 --> 01:32:19,524
He pulls out of the deal, accuses me of all these fines.

1611
01:32:20,024 --> 01:32:21,664
My company eventually goes bankrupt.

1612
01:32:22,204 --> 01:32:24,144
And then all of Samuele's fiber optic cables

1613
01:32:24,144 --> 01:32:27,664
are then acquired by a shell company owned by Berlusconi.

1614
01:32:27,864 --> 01:32:29,244
That's Samuele's side of the story.

1615
01:32:29,344 --> 01:32:44,804
I mean, I'm not going to delve into the details too much in the film, because also it's a very long legal case that lasted many years, and lawyers devoted all their energies to this, so it's not for me to say whether Landy is innocent or not, but at least what Landy was then accused of, of fraudulent bankruptcy.

1616
01:32:44,804 --> 01:32:57,724
And you can imagine, perhaps from the more libertarian perspective, you create this giant company, the government tries to fuck you, they accuse you of all these fines, and then you think, well, if they're going to take all my assets, I might as well try and save some of them.

1617
01:32:58,004 --> 01:33:05,204
So he leaves the country, and maybe he does fraudulent bankruptcy, maybe he doesn't, I'm not sure. But after this, he then has to flee Italy.

1618
01:33:05,204 --> 01:33:12,424
and so even before this Landy would spend a lot of time in Liberia he did have a portion of Utilia

1619
01:33:12,424 --> 01:33:17,964
that was doing a lot of infrastructure in Liberia you know so they would build hospitals out there

1620
01:33:17,964 --> 01:33:22,804
and they would do the whole telecoms network in Liberia and of course if you want to do business

1621
01:33:22,804 --> 01:33:27,924
in African countries you have to know the people that are running things it's impossible you know

1622
01:33:27,924 --> 01:33:34,704
to do large-scale projects without that so yeah that was sort of Landy's involvement in Liberia

1623
01:33:34,704 --> 01:33:39,004
And so the thing is, yeah, Landy set up the Liberian embassy in Dubai.

1624
01:33:39,944 --> 01:33:54,044
And there is this kind of I suppose you would call it like a meme perhaps amongst commodity traders of being a Liberian diplomat Because in the 90s it used to be that you can pay to get a Liberian diplomatic passport

1625
01:33:54,804 --> 01:34:01,004
And as a diplomat, you are able to, you know, you have diplomatic immunity, so able to take

1626
01:34:01,004 --> 01:34:05,824
like a briefcase or whatever, of diamonds or whatever, you know, across borders and

1627
01:34:05,824 --> 01:34:06,364
things like that.

1628
01:34:06,464 --> 01:34:10,124
And anyone that's a Liberian diplomat is considered insanely sketchy.

1629
01:34:10,324 --> 01:34:17,204
But I would consider Landy probably the only legitimate white Liberian diplomat that has ever existed.

1630
01:34:17,484 --> 01:34:18,324
I'll tell you why.

1631
01:34:18,984 --> 01:34:21,884
So after Landy, or even before this.

1632
01:34:22,084 --> 01:34:25,964
So one thing that's very endearing to me about Landy is that he was never trying to show off.

1633
01:34:26,424 --> 01:34:30,624
He was never trying to do good PR for himself.

1634
01:34:30,784 --> 01:34:33,964
He really just wanted to pursue his projects essentially in peace.

1635
01:34:34,284 --> 01:34:39,364
It was really only because I was so persistent in trying to reach him that a filmmaker even came on board and filmed what he was trying to do.

1636
01:34:39,364 --> 01:34:44,044
He was never chasing publicity at all. And of course, there's all this negative press about him.

1637
01:34:44,244 --> 01:34:50,284
And so anyway, after Landy died, I get in contact with someone from the Liberian embassy in Dubai.

1638
01:34:50,624 --> 01:34:58,984
And he tells me how Landy coordinated the rescue of hundreds of Liberian girls that had been sold into slavery in Oman.

1639
01:34:59,604 --> 01:35:05,864
And so essentially what had happened is, you know, these girls would be promised that they would be up to study, go to school, you know, get jobs in Oman.

1640
01:35:06,284 --> 01:35:07,184
They would be sent to Oman.

1641
01:35:07,984 --> 01:35:11,324
When they would arrive, they would all have their passports taken away from them.

1642
01:35:11,664 --> 01:35:13,444
If they protested against this, they would be beaten.

1643
01:35:14,124 --> 01:35:17,284
And a lot of them essentially were working as slaves, you know, for little to no pay.

1644
01:35:18,024 --> 01:35:21,664
And, you know, of course, some of them, you know, the more attractive ones would have a certain fate.

1645
01:35:22,244 --> 01:35:25,084
And also Liberia has no diplomatic ties with Oman.

1646
01:35:25,304 --> 01:35:27,984
So there's no Liberian embassy with which these girls can get any help.

1647
01:35:28,124 --> 01:35:31,324
And some of them would escape, you know, try and leave through the airport.

1648
01:35:31,404 --> 01:35:33,824
But they're unable to escape because they have no passports.

1649
01:35:33,824 --> 01:35:37,604
and oftentimes when they went to the airport they would be beaten and taken back to their slave

1650
01:35:37,604 --> 01:35:43,044
masters. So anyway some of these girls then think well how can we escape from here? There's no

1651
01:35:43,044 --> 01:35:48,024
Liberian embassy in Oman. Where is the nearest Liberian embassy? It was actually technically

1652
01:35:48,024 --> 01:35:57,264
floating in international waters between Dubai and Iran. And so what Landy would do is when he

1653
01:35:57,264 --> 01:36:00,644
found out about this he figured well I've got to try and get as many of these girls out of Oman as

1654
01:36:00,644 --> 01:36:04,984
possible. And the Liberian government wasn't particularly helping with this issue. So Landy

1655
01:36:04,984 --> 01:36:10,224
personally used his own money, he would pay for safe drivers, or for getaway drivers to go in the

1656
01:36:10,224 --> 01:36:14,224
night. These girls would then have to escape from the houses, there'd be a driver that would pick

1657
01:36:14,224 --> 01:36:17,704
them up. And as I said, they couldn't just go to the airport and leave because they didn't have

1658
01:36:17,704 --> 01:36:22,344
papers. So they would then all stay in a safe house that was paid for and organized by Landy

1659
01:36:22,344 --> 01:36:28,224
in Muscat, the capital. And then Landy would then start the basic negotiations with the government

1660
01:36:28,224 --> 01:36:31,344
and the slave masters to allow these girls to leave,

1661
01:36:32,284 --> 01:36:34,904
to be able to get their papers and all the rest of it.

1662
01:36:35,424 --> 01:36:37,664
Are there land borders they could have gone out on?

1663
01:36:38,064 --> 01:36:40,204
Well, I think they just basically didn't have any documents

1664
01:36:40,204 --> 01:36:40,984
with which to leave.

1665
01:36:41,104 --> 01:36:42,704
And you imagine, let's say you have no money at all.

1666
01:36:42,764 --> 01:36:43,844
You've essentially been a slave.

1667
01:36:44,564 --> 01:36:45,444
You go to the border.

1668
01:36:45,884 --> 01:36:46,784
I mean, what do you do next?

1669
01:36:46,964 --> 01:36:48,324
Then you're just in some other strange place.

1670
01:36:48,344 --> 01:36:49,344
I don't know, sneak over.

1671
01:36:49,444 --> 01:36:50,104
I was just thinking about,

1672
01:36:50,104 --> 01:36:53,524
I don't, I've never traveled across any borders there.

1673
01:36:54,244 --> 01:36:56,384
Actually, no, I've been from like the UAE

1674
01:36:56,384 --> 01:37:03,824
to um somewhere else i can't remember you know but and there's no border really you know you just

1675
01:37:03,824 --> 01:37:07,344
you know so the point is you know what do you do then you know then you're not some other strange

1676
01:37:07,344 --> 01:37:13,824
land well but you you said that he set up uh the our liberian embassy in dubai yeah yeah yeah yeah

1677
01:37:13,824 --> 01:37:18,944
so then so with these girls they were all in this um safe house in muscat and then he would then get

1678
01:37:18,944 --> 01:37:23,744
all of their papers and he would you know pay for their plane tickets to get back to a liberian you

1679
01:37:23,744 --> 01:37:25,904
hundreds of these girls were basically rescued by him.

1680
01:37:26,744 --> 01:37:27,944
And this is another thing with the media,

1681
01:37:28,324 --> 01:37:31,464
how they oftentimes don't care about the truth whatsoever.

1682
01:37:31,764 --> 01:37:34,084
So for example, there was this Financial Times article about Landy.

1683
01:37:34,664 --> 01:37:37,324
And everyone that reads about Landy on the internet,

1684
01:37:37,584 --> 01:37:39,464
they consider him this terrible guy for some reason.

1685
01:37:39,764 --> 01:37:41,304
But what crimes did he actually do?

1686
01:37:41,464 --> 01:37:44,384
The only thing you can say that he might have done is fraudulent bankruptcy.

1687
01:37:44,884 --> 01:37:46,564
That's the only real thing.

1688
01:37:46,604 --> 01:37:49,184
But he seems like this terrible criminal or whatever

1689
01:37:49,184 --> 01:37:50,824
from the way the media portrays him.

1690
01:37:50,824 --> 01:37:53,624
But when you say fraudulent bankruptcy as well,

1691
01:37:53,744 --> 01:37:54,064
Yeah.

1692
01:37:55,084 --> 01:37:58,984
I look at that and think, I thought when you were saying it, I thought what you said.

1693
01:37:59,284 --> 01:37:59,444
Yeah.

1694
01:37:59,544 --> 01:38:05,644
I thought here's a pretty, you know, authoritarian government trying to steal all my possessions.

1695
01:38:06,024 --> 01:38:07,184
I'm going to try and hide some.

1696
01:38:07,684 --> 01:38:08,244
Yeah, yeah.

1697
01:38:08,404 --> 01:38:10,484
I mean, I think that's a very normal thing to do.

1698
01:38:10,524 --> 01:38:10,844
Exactly.

1699
01:38:10,844 --> 01:38:16,164
And you can also see this is perhaps one of the reasons why Landy was even drawn to seastiding in the first place.

1700
01:38:16,684 --> 01:38:19,384
Is he thinks that, well, I'm clearly a highly competent individual.

1701
01:38:19,644 --> 01:38:21,084
I have a lot to give to my nation.

1702
01:38:21,404 --> 01:38:22,884
I brought high speed internet to it.

1703
01:38:22,884 --> 01:38:31,044
And if my nation isn't treating me right, well, why don't I try and create a state in which I will be valued, in which I can recreate a state with the right ideals?

1704
01:38:31,164 --> 01:38:33,824
So you can see maybe that was why he was drawn to sea setting.

1705
01:38:34,304 --> 01:38:44,064
Was that an expressed, you know, was he trying to create a state or was that just, you know, did he ever say that out loud?

1706
01:38:45,484 --> 01:38:48,764
Well, I suppose he's someone where he doesn't like to make grandiose claims.

1707
01:38:48,764 --> 01:38:53,784
you know he's you know he considered himself as living out in the frontier he wanted to encourage

1708
01:38:53,784 --> 01:38:58,144
other people to join i think definitely that was his ultimate ambition but he perhaps wouldn't have

1709
01:38:58,144 --> 01:39:05,044
stated it in such you know grandiose terms he was just i'm sorry let me grab some water oh yeah

1710
01:39:05,044 --> 01:39:15,004
back in a moment can you can you go of course yes i'll speak while you're gone so that i don't have

1711
01:39:15,004 --> 01:39:22,404
to cut this um yeah what was i going to say um i don't know actually

1712
01:39:22,404 --> 01:39:29,484
yeah i i i thought as much that we should probably bring a bottle of water out here

1713
01:39:29,484 --> 01:39:35,484
i figured this might become a long conversation thank you very much indeed thanks um

1714
01:39:35,484 --> 01:39:43,724
so he's not he's yeah go on let's see where were we so yes in terms of his did he express

1715
01:39:43,724 --> 01:39:47,144
that he was actually thinking of creating a new country

1716
01:39:47,144 --> 01:39:47,564
necessarily?

1717
01:39:47,944 --> 01:39:49,644
Or was he just playing with diplomacy?

1718
01:39:49,804 --> 01:39:51,304
Because that seems quite fun.

1719
01:39:51,764 --> 01:39:53,764
Was he actually a Liberian diplomat himself?

1720
01:39:54,084 --> 01:39:56,424
Yeah, I mean, he had a Liberian diplomatic passport.

1721
01:39:56,864 --> 01:40:00,344
So he's obviously someone, like in our world,

1722
01:40:01,264 --> 01:40:05,004
you know, passports and voting with your feet

1723
01:40:05,004 --> 01:40:05,704
and all this kind of stuff.

1724
01:40:06,164 --> 01:40:09,624
And how to skirt the system is always talked about.

1725
01:40:10,184 --> 01:40:12,524
That seems like just another version of that to me.

1726
01:40:12,524 --> 01:40:18,904
just at a higher level you know yeah it seems like you know landy really almost embodies the

1727
01:40:18,904 --> 01:40:23,584
kind of archetype of a person that is actually able to create some kind of new society or some

1728
01:40:23,584 --> 01:40:28,504
kind of new state because ultimately you do need to be incredibly competent to i mean i mean even

1729
01:40:28,504 --> 01:40:33,044
for example it's probably much easier to create a billion dollar company far easier than it is to

1730
01:40:33,044 --> 01:40:37,324
create a state yeah and ultimately people that are going to build micro nations have to be people

1731
01:40:37,324 --> 01:40:41,264
that are supremely competent in what they want to do and also even in trying to create a new state

1732
01:40:41,264 --> 01:40:47,724
like I actually don't think that you know seasteaders will say oh there's no more land left

1733
01:40:47,724 --> 01:40:51,764
or whatever so we have to do it out in the ocean but I think ultimately if you're good at diplomacy

1734
01:40:51,764 --> 01:40:56,124
there is like vast areas of the world that are totally uninhabited like for example Kazakhstan

1735
01:40:56,124 --> 01:41:00,764
there's so much area there if you're a very skilled diplomat you can negotiate you know

1736
01:41:00,764 --> 01:41:04,344
especially economic zones and all the rest of it so I really don't think that the bottleneck

1737
01:41:04,344 --> 01:41:10,264
in creating new states is land I think it is almost entirely very competent individuals that

1738
01:41:10,264 --> 01:41:14,944
are actually able to you know make these things happen i think in the case and what you're saying

1739
01:41:14,944 --> 01:41:21,124
though i agree same with large swathes of most of russia is is like there's forests that go on for

1740
01:41:21,124 --> 01:41:26,084
hours and hours and hours and hours you know there's not a shortage of land the the problem

1741
01:41:26,084 --> 01:41:33,724
with the land-based version of seasteading which is what you're describing is you cannot move and

1742
01:41:33,724 --> 01:41:40,584
this is why i love seasteading so much because as a sovereign entity you're the alt you have the

1743
01:41:40,584 --> 01:41:47,844
ultimate ability to to change neighbors and and which you can't do on land once you commit to the

1744
01:41:47,844 --> 01:41:54,464
land to your to your physical space you are at the whim of your host nation no matter who they are

1745
01:41:54,464 --> 01:41:59,164
and there's nothing wrong with that as a strategy and ironically and and this was something i didn't

1746
01:41:59,164 --> 01:42:05,544
mention earlier but i think one of the best strategies with sovereign sovereignty is not to

1747
01:42:05,544 --> 01:42:09,004
be known about and i was wondering whether that was part of the reason he didn't want to speak to

1748
01:42:09,004 --> 01:42:14,544
you in the first place as well because it's one thing living in between iran and and dubai it's

1749
01:42:14,544 --> 01:42:18,804
another thing when everyone knows about it because as soon as people know about it as soon as you

1750
01:42:18,804 --> 01:42:23,864
become a person of interest that's when people start showing up exactly and and the wrong people

1751
01:42:23,864 --> 01:42:30,464
start getting but if no one knows you're there and i i i think as a strategy i almost think if

1752
01:42:30,464 --> 01:42:36,464
you really want to sort of sovereign life you're probably just better off sometimes just building

1753
01:42:36,464 --> 01:42:40,504
a little community in the middle of nowhere where no one really wants to go and just keep it under

1754
01:42:40,504 --> 01:42:46,364
the radar because because it's very easy to do that as soon as you like you say as soon as you

1755
01:42:46,364 --> 01:42:52,984
start negotiating with governments it's like suddenly things get very complicated governments

1756
01:42:52,984 --> 01:42:59,384
are some of the least efficient organizations in the world literally they have a terrible incentive

1757
01:42:59,384 --> 01:43:05,744
model compared to the private sector you know and as a result dealing with them you know because

1758
01:43:05,744 --> 01:43:11,544
they all have all the guns as well which doesn't help by law they have all the guns so you can't

1759
01:43:11,544 --> 01:43:16,404
even sort of like stand up to them from that sense i mean you can but you do you would do so at your

1760
01:43:16,404 --> 01:43:23,704
peril i think i mean some people have um you have to use legality on the whole legal sort of like

1761
01:43:23,704 --> 01:43:30,264
you know systems and diplomacy and communities you know if you've got a big enough community

1762
01:43:30,264 --> 01:43:35,804
that you can affect opinion of governments and stuff but but um yeah yeah the sort of different

1763
01:43:35,804 --> 01:43:38,744
strategies like you know you don't necessarily need to get any weapons at all like for example

1764
01:43:38,744 --> 01:43:42,724
one thing that could be a future liberal and strategy is obviously croatia is giving them

1765
01:43:42,724 --> 01:43:47,764
lot of grief so one thing you can get is get a larger nation to look out for you so for example

1766
01:43:47,764 --> 01:43:51,764
malay has said on video you know when he says when you ask malay like what country is he from

1767
01:43:51,764 --> 01:43:57,204
he doesn't say argentina he says i'm from libeland and if for example argentina decided that they

1768
01:43:57,204 --> 01:44:01,124
already wanted libeland to exist they could put you know a huge amount of international pressure

1769
01:44:01,124 --> 01:44:06,724
on croatia so one way the diplomatic way is to get larger nations to support you for whatever reason

1770
01:44:06,724 --> 01:44:11,524
maybe it could be for research into i don't know certain medical practices or whatever it is that's

1771
01:44:11,524 --> 01:44:13,784
It's not possible in other states, but it's that way.

1772
01:44:13,784 --> 01:44:18,584
Or, of course, there's also, you know, you've got to develop, you know, advanced weaponry.

1773
01:44:18,744 --> 01:44:23,284
Like you could think, for example, North Korea has, no one's trying to invade North Korea because they have nukes.

1774
01:44:23,344 --> 01:44:28,204
And you imagine if technology gets much more advanced in the future, you could have smaller nation states that,

1775
01:44:28,304 --> 01:44:32,184
or smaller startup societies that would have nukes and just say, guys, you know, we're sovereign.

1776
01:44:32,684 --> 01:44:34,564
Don't mess with us. And probably nobody would.

1777
01:44:34,704 --> 01:44:38,864
So obviously it's not a thing that you necessarily want to do is to start developing nuclear weapons.

1778
01:44:38,864 --> 01:44:42,864
but it is a way actually, it's one very clear way to guarantee your sovereignty

1779
01:44:42,864 --> 01:44:46,644
because you say you guys won't mess with us because we're able to defend ourselves.

1780
01:44:47,044 --> 01:44:50,824
So do you really want to be at the whim of the changing opinions of different governments

1781
01:44:50,824 --> 01:44:53,864
or especially with drone technology, perhaps like small nation states

1782
01:44:53,864 --> 01:44:57,164
can become incredibly powerful in and without themselves

1783
01:44:57,164 --> 01:44:59,324
and defend themselves with the technology?

1784
01:44:59,444 --> 01:45:00,604
Yeah, it's a tricky one.

1785
01:45:00,824 --> 01:45:05,804
It's a very tricky one because I think my hope is that we enter this new age

1786
01:45:05,804 --> 01:45:15,004
where institutions because institutions are crumbling according to me the world over and

1787
01:45:15,004 --> 01:45:20,684
that a lot of that is a function of the internet yeah I don't know you've noticed this but in my

1788
01:45:20,684 --> 01:45:27,704
lifetime I come from the pure analog world when I was younger to this world and information is now

1789
01:45:27,704 --> 01:45:34,984
so free and easy to obtain it's caused so much turmoil on the planet you can see it I mean even

1790
01:45:34,984 --> 01:45:37,324
simple things like the Epstein files, you know.

1791
01:45:37,784 --> 01:45:42,204
I wonder how many people are now wondering new thoughts

1792
01:45:42,204 --> 01:45:44,404
about the people that govern them

1793
01:45:44,404 --> 01:45:47,404
that would never have known about that kind of stuff.

1794
01:45:47,644 --> 01:45:48,104
Oh, hello.

1795
01:45:48,784 --> 01:45:49,524
Oh, that's yours.

1796
01:45:50,044 --> 01:45:50,624
It's up on there.

1797
01:45:54,664 --> 01:45:55,924
Sounds like Skype.

1798
01:45:57,444 --> 01:45:57,924
No.

1799
01:45:59,084 --> 01:46:01,184
Skype, I didn't know Skype was still working.

1800
01:46:02,404 --> 01:46:04,364
You know, like, and yes.

1801
01:46:04,984 --> 01:46:09,224
the age we live in is the age of chaos

1802
01:46:09,224 --> 01:46:12,484
because now you and me have access

1803
01:46:12,484 --> 01:46:14,724
to this very high level of information

1804
01:46:14,724 --> 01:46:18,464
that would have been gatekept from us before

1805
01:46:18,464 --> 01:46:20,344
and it allows us to form new opinions

1806
01:46:20,344 --> 01:46:20,964
and stuff like that.

1807
01:46:21,344 --> 01:46:22,984
While you were talking about Liberland there

1808
01:46:22,984 --> 01:46:25,664
and you can be as diplomatic as you want,

1809
01:46:26,304 --> 01:46:27,724
what do you think about Liberland?

1810
01:46:28,124 --> 01:46:30,284
You've been there, you know VIT,

1811
01:46:30,424 --> 01:46:31,604
you know what's going on.

1812
01:46:32,264 --> 01:46:34,004
What's your one-on-one on the situation

1813
01:46:34,004 --> 01:46:36,804
and what you think about it and what you think might happen?

1814
01:46:37,364 --> 01:46:41,584
Well, I would say to start with, of course, I hope that Liberland is a great success.

1815
01:46:41,884 --> 01:46:46,804
I think ultimately you could think of the startup city-state projects, maybe.

1816
01:46:47,324 --> 01:46:50,504
Of course, it's got lots of different citizens.

1817
01:46:50,844 --> 01:46:52,404
They do have some kind of government structure.

1818
01:46:52,844 --> 01:46:56,364
Actually, funny enough, Landy was one of the main contributors to a lot of their software.

1819
01:46:56,864 --> 01:47:01,144
This is how Landy and Vic got connected, is that a Liberland...

1820
01:47:01,144 --> 01:47:07,284
So essentially, I mean, the idea perhaps of Liberland, or the core idea, at least according to it, is that you have voluntary taxation.

1821
01:47:07,964 --> 01:47:15,244
So citizens don't have to pay taxes, but if they do pay taxes, you have a greater share of the vote, which kind of makes sense.

1822
01:47:15,344 --> 01:47:18,304
I mean, imagine you have 10 friends, you're deciding where you want to go on holiday.

1823
01:47:18,724 --> 01:47:22,784
Some guy says, you know, don't worry, guys, I'll pay like 90% of the holiday.

1824
01:47:23,124 --> 01:47:25,404
Obviously, he kind of gets to decide what happens with the money.

1825
01:47:25,504 --> 01:47:30,964
Like this is a very intuitive way that all of us will naturally organize ourselves in smaller scales.

1826
01:47:30,964 --> 01:47:39,724
So this is his idea for governance, which also means that, you know, the Lieberland governance star necessarily means that they will be less involved with the running of the actual country.

1827
01:47:39,884 --> 01:47:44,444
But, you know, Landy did actually, he fixed a lot of bugs in their code.

1828
01:47:44,484 --> 01:47:51,864
And that was how he got connected with VIT is all of a sudden this, you know, great programmer comes along and just like rewrites your whole code base.

1829
01:47:52,044 --> 01:47:53,284
And for VIT, that was very exciting.

1830
01:47:53,684 --> 01:47:59,144
So I do think that idea ultimately is very important about this whole like, you know, voluntary taxation.

1831
01:47:59,144 --> 01:48:07,244
and I think like for me whether Liberland fails or not I like the spirit of trying to create

1832
01:48:07,244 --> 01:48:11,104
something new and I think even if you think some people might be skeptical and think that what

1833
01:48:11,104 --> 01:48:16,584
Liberland doing is a bunch of nonsense you imagine a thousand Liberlands all with different styles

1834
01:48:16,584 --> 01:48:22,104
of governance some of them are going to really thrive so if for me I like the spirit of Liberland

1835
01:48:22,104 --> 01:48:27,184
whether they're going about it the right way who's to say but I like that spirit of of exploration

1836
01:48:27,184 --> 01:48:28,464
and actually trying something.

1837
01:48:29,064 --> 01:48:30,704
And it is one of the few places on earth,

1838
01:48:30,764 --> 01:48:34,004
at least where it is unclaimed by any government.

1839
01:48:34,424 --> 01:48:36,304
Or even, I mean, just, it's not necessarily unclaimed,

1840
01:48:36,424 --> 01:48:38,484
but it's like Serbia says that it belongs to Croatia

1841
01:48:38,484 --> 01:48:40,224
and Croatia says it belongs to Serbia.

1842
01:48:40,684 --> 01:48:42,224
So maybe Croatia might say is that,

1843
01:48:42,484 --> 01:48:43,964
actually, this isn't unclaimed land.

1844
01:48:44,304 --> 01:48:46,864
It is just a land that is on the negotiating table

1845
01:48:46,864 --> 01:48:48,264
that hasn't yet been decided.

1846
01:48:48,964 --> 01:48:50,684
Yeah, but they police it.

1847
01:48:51,004 --> 01:48:52,004
They do police it.

1848
01:48:52,004 --> 01:48:56,284
And in the courts, that basically alludes to the fact

1849
01:48:56,284 --> 01:48:57,224
that they think they own it,

1850
01:48:57,404 --> 01:48:59,004
even though they don't want to admit it out loud.

1851
01:48:59,004 --> 01:49:01,444
Yes, but even Croatia would claim

1852
01:49:01,444 --> 01:49:03,664
that they're just managing the area,

1853
01:49:03,724 --> 01:49:04,504
they don't actually own it.

1854
01:49:04,644 --> 01:49:05,464
But I suppose the problem,

1855
01:49:05,684 --> 01:49:07,324
the challenge maybe for Liberland

1856
01:49:07,324 --> 01:49:09,184
is since this piece of land

1857
01:49:09,184 --> 01:49:10,344
is on the negotiating table,

1858
01:49:10,664 --> 01:49:12,824
are they able to develop enough

1859
01:49:12,824 --> 01:49:14,764
such that if it is finally decided

1860
01:49:14,764 --> 01:49:16,084
that it belongs to Croatia or Serbia,

1861
01:49:16,644 --> 01:49:17,624
can they develop enough

1862
01:49:17,624 --> 01:49:19,104
that there could be international pressure

1863
01:49:19,104 --> 01:49:20,104
that could stop it,

1864
01:49:20,144 --> 01:49:21,184
maybe from Argentina

1865
01:49:21,184 --> 01:49:22,644
or through other nation states?

1866
01:49:22,924 --> 01:49:24,184
It's kind of one of the challenges.

1867
01:49:24,504 --> 01:49:25,364
Can they do it?

1868
01:49:25,364 --> 01:49:36,404
My opinion, looking at the game theory of Liberland, is that Croatia and Serbia will never decide on a result.

1869
01:49:36,784 --> 01:49:39,744
Because they don't want to lose out.

1870
01:49:40,184 --> 01:49:43,324
Which is great news for Liberland.

1871
01:49:43,844 --> 01:49:49,324
However, Croatia is never going to want to give them sovereignty.

1872
01:49:49,784 --> 01:49:51,824
Because then they lose either way.

1873
01:49:51,824 --> 01:49:54,424
Like, Croatia loses if they give it away.

1874
01:49:54,424 --> 01:49:58,144
and Croatia loses if they claim it, if you see what I mean.

1875
01:49:58,264 --> 01:50:00,444
Because if they claim it, they lose land on the other side.

1876
01:50:00,544 --> 01:50:04,244
And if they give it away, they've kind of lost whatever remaining land they have.

1877
01:50:04,244 --> 01:50:09,284
The way that they can win is by it being beneficial that it's Liberland.

1878
01:50:09,624 --> 01:50:09,724
Yeah.

1879
01:50:10,084 --> 01:50:14,004
And that is a very long-term strategy as far as I'm concerned.

1880
01:50:14,284 --> 01:50:20,004
And, you know, arguably, VIT could bring in huge investment to there.

1881
01:50:20,744 --> 01:50:22,384
The question is, do they want that?

1882
01:50:22,384 --> 01:50:28,664
you know you know your average you know kind of free market economist would say yeah great

1883
01:50:28,664 --> 01:50:33,564
you know there'll be jobs there'll be this there'll be that but who knows whether you know

1884
01:50:33,564 --> 01:50:40,584
a country wants another country suddenly popping up next to them that has all kinds of connotations

1885
01:50:40,584 --> 01:50:47,064
i did ask him once i think he i said would you ever can would you ever make it a free zone within

1886
01:50:47,064 --> 01:50:52,584
uh croatia like an economic zone and i'm pretty sure he said he'd entertain the idea so

1887
01:50:52,584 --> 01:50:59,764
maybe that's a way forward i don't know but having spoke to it a lot and studied it myself

1888
01:50:59,764 --> 01:51:07,744
and been there a few times and thought about it i see it goes nowhere until some high level

1889
01:51:07,744 --> 01:51:15,864
political agreement gets made you know there's no point in trying to keep building stuff there

1890
01:51:15,864 --> 01:51:18,084
as far as I can tell, you know,

1891
01:51:18,164 --> 01:51:20,744
that the incentive model won't favor that for you.

1892
01:51:20,824 --> 01:51:23,664
The incentive model is you need a very,

1893
01:51:24,044 --> 01:51:28,164
like you need Croatia to suddenly get a Millet style president randomly

1894
01:51:28,164 --> 01:51:33,344
who quite likes the idea or something like some bit of fortuitous luck like

1895
01:51:33,344 --> 01:51:33,584
that.

1896
01:51:33,804 --> 01:51:38,584
I don't see the constant trying and trying and trying is actually working.

1897
01:51:38,684 --> 01:51:38,984
I don't know.

1898
01:51:39,304 --> 01:51:41,084
I'd be, I'm exactly like you.

1899
01:51:41,484 --> 01:51:44,284
I'm happy it exists because it's great.

1900
01:51:44,284 --> 01:51:49,604
but having been there it's really chaotic and and and i can't imagine

1901
01:51:49,604 --> 01:51:55,084
people i can't imagine croatia if i was in the croatian government i wouldn't be taking it

1902
01:51:55,084 --> 01:51:59,504
seriously put it that way yeah if you see what i mean you know i suppose at least what vit would

1903
01:51:59,504 --> 01:52:03,824
say is it may be chaotic but i mean part of that chaos arises because whenever they do do

1904
01:52:03,824 --> 01:52:08,304
construction they know build tree houses and all the rest of it uh the croatian police comes in and

1905
01:52:08,304 --> 01:52:12,884
destroys it i mean one thing that is cool about libeland is that it actually i think would be

1906
01:52:12,884 --> 01:52:17,544
very easy from an infrastructure perspective to develop it very quickly because the Danube there

1907
01:52:17,544 --> 01:52:23,044
is very wide and you have huge barges that could carry like an insane amount of building materials

1908
01:52:23,044 --> 01:52:37,764
that they go all the way up to Hungary through the Danube and you could actually develop quite quickly because it so easy to ship materials there so it does have the potential have you have you seen Zaha Hadid plans that they created you

1909
01:52:37,764 --> 01:52:42,864
know like Patrick Schumacher I interviewed him yesterday you should have a look at this crazy

1910
01:52:42,864 --> 01:52:50,024
stuff they came up with I mean yeah it's a it's a I think they'd have to drop a lot of earth there

1911
01:52:50,024 --> 01:52:54,764
because it basically floods most of the time yeah I suppose it could be like you know Venice or

1912
01:52:54,764 --> 01:52:59,064
something some of the most beautiful cities have been built on water and on swamps basically you

1913
01:52:59,064 --> 01:53:04,744
know libeland is effectively a swamp venice is the one of the best uh well it's the one i think

1914
01:53:04,744 --> 01:53:09,004
one of the most successful cities of all time there's a thousand years worth of great governance

1915
01:53:09,004 --> 01:53:15,424
you know that that really worked and it was built on water i mean it's the ultimate seasteading

1916
01:53:15,424 --> 01:53:23,364
like advert you know um yeah i agree i agree it could be a great uh you know libeland could be

1917
01:53:23,364 --> 01:53:30,824
great i just i think what i want to know is like when if i could go back in history and be there

1918
01:53:30,824 --> 01:53:36,804
when people were deciding to found venice say i just want to know what what kind of people were

1919
01:53:36,804 --> 01:53:43,284
they because what you notice in in the free city space is you see a lot of especially actually in

1920
01:53:43,284 --> 01:53:50,744
the seasteading space even more so there are some very serious people or in the but there are a lot

1921
01:53:50,744 --> 01:53:56,364
of fringy people like Liberland's a good example if you go to visit Liberlanders I'm still on some

1922
01:53:56,364 --> 01:54:01,704
of their telegram groups I'm you know I've been to the I went to Liverpool last year you see a lot

1923
01:54:01,704 --> 01:54:07,524
of craziness there as well a lot of very fringe ideas yeah yeah very fringe not not necessarily

1924
01:54:07,524 --> 01:54:13,924
you know flat earth fringe and and and I and I love all that stuff yeah yeah me too but it doesn't

1925
01:54:13,924 --> 01:54:22,544
necessarily work well in you know in the diplomatic arena you know you you there's a way to there's a

1926
01:54:22,544 --> 01:54:30,244
way to um you know i i think i don't know i i'm i think that it needs a lot of that i think i think

1927
01:54:30,244 --> 01:54:37,084
you need you need serious people and i know if it's serious he's a serious guy but but when you

1928
01:54:37,084 --> 01:54:42,304
go when you see what surrounds the liberland and what the community is like it's quite it's very

1929
01:54:42,304 --> 01:54:48,924
Celtic but maybe that's how that they're the frontier people maybe that's how it starts maybe

1930
01:54:48,924 --> 01:54:55,024
if we could go back in time to the to people deciding to live off the coast where Venice is

1931
01:54:55,024 --> 01:54:59,984
now they were the same people they were a little bit crazy a little bit woo way you know because

1932
01:54:59,984 --> 01:55:05,824
you need those people you know but I like the idea of someone like Landy because not only is he a

1933
01:55:05,824 --> 01:55:10,904
frontiersman in the extreme he also is very intelligent and he's built billion dollar

1934
01:55:10,904 --> 01:55:16,824
companies and he's you know this is the kind of person i mean i mean i mean an interesting side

1935
01:55:16,824 --> 01:55:22,104
about landy is i've done a lot of research into his family history and so first of all um the

1936
01:55:22,104 --> 01:55:29,484
landy tribe specifically called the landy tribe have been in existence for at least 2300 years

1937
01:55:29,484 --> 01:55:34,944
they were first mentioned by the ancient greek geographer strabo so they were this germanic tribe

1938
01:55:34,944 --> 01:55:36,644
that lived in northwestern Germany.

1939
01:55:37,204 --> 01:55:41,284
And so the Landi tribe was part of this thing called The Thing.

1940
01:55:41,744 --> 01:55:44,724
And The Thing was this collective of Germanic tribes

1941
01:55:44,724 --> 01:55:47,284
that then sacked Rome and destroyed Rome.

1942
01:55:47,744 --> 01:55:50,244
So after the Landi tribe then sacked Rome,

1943
01:55:50,484 --> 01:55:52,224
they then moved to northern Italy

1944
01:55:52,224 --> 01:55:56,484
and they established a city-state called L'ostato Landi,

1945
01:55:56,804 --> 01:55:57,604
the Landi state.

1946
01:55:57,984 --> 01:56:01,884
And the Landi state is the longest-lived Italian city-state

1947
01:56:01,884 --> 01:56:03,584
run by a single family.

1948
01:56:03,584 --> 01:56:10,724
so Landy and also the only um the description of the Landy tribe in uh in uh you know um 2300

1949
01:56:10,724 --> 01:56:18,044
years ago in 300 BC is that they were described as a Germanic tribe living near the ocean that was

1950
01:56:18,044 --> 01:56:23,604
where they felt this affinity towards so and then of course his family having this city-state and

1951
01:56:23,604 --> 01:56:27,684
then it's kind of interesting you think these I suppose you could call it maybe blood memories

1952
01:56:27,684 --> 01:56:32,364
that Landy has so you know these because I don't think all of his family that I've spoken to they

1953
01:56:32,364 --> 01:56:36,244
don't even know about Los Stato Landi. It's actually kind of incredible that, you know,

1954
01:56:36,304 --> 01:56:41,124
only in three or four hundred years, you know, the memory of this fades. But, you know, Landi,

1955
01:56:41,304 --> 01:56:44,984
in his blood, like his exact lineage, they were creating city-states.

1956
01:56:45,324 --> 01:56:52,564
But you say, so Los Stato Landi now is no longer a registered city-state?

1957
01:56:52,584 --> 01:56:57,384
No, it was a city-state during the Renaissance. So it was, you know, when Italy was many different

1958
01:56:57,384 --> 01:57:01,364
city-states. They have a huge amount of castles. I have been to a number of the Los Stato Landi

1959
01:57:01,364 --> 01:57:06,724
castles and they're kind of an established family in um i don't have a book actually it's behind you

1960
01:57:06,724 --> 01:57:12,364
there uh you can see the the noble house of the landy it's the their entire family history in the

1961
01:57:12,364 --> 01:57:16,504
landy family they were you know did a lot of innovations in like banking and finance during

1962
01:57:16,504 --> 01:57:21,904
the renaissance and i suppose landy is you imagine uh that you know if the people that created the

1963
01:57:21,904 --> 01:57:26,604
statue land if they were alive today how would they act well maybe just like landy and somehow

1964
01:57:26,604 --> 01:57:28,764
Now Landy's not conscious of his past,

1965
01:57:29,264 --> 01:57:30,284
but this is what his people do.

1966
01:57:31,024 --> 01:57:32,964
So at least all of his children that I've spoken to

1967
01:57:32,964 --> 01:57:33,944
have no idea about this.

1968
01:57:34,804 --> 01:57:36,624
I don't know if, of course I didn't have a speak to him about this.

1969
01:57:36,624 --> 01:57:40,004
So you found all this out since you've been making

1970
01:57:40,004 --> 01:57:41,504
the rest of the film after he died.

1971
01:57:41,744 --> 01:57:42,084
Yeah, yeah.

1972
01:57:42,524 --> 01:57:47,144
Gosh, that's, it was a real tragedy that he died

1973
01:57:47,144 --> 01:57:48,004
when you think about it.

1974
01:57:48,004 --> 01:57:54,504
Imagine if, maybe he had drawn the dots, who knows?

1975
01:57:54,504 --> 01:58:02,164
but that might have that might have been a really interesting resurgence of understanding

1976
01:58:02,164 --> 01:58:09,264
you know because imagine that if you realize okay i used you know because in a way a lot of what

1977
01:58:09,264 --> 01:58:15,064
people talk about in the free cities world is people they we love a lot of people love the city

1978
01:58:15,064 --> 01:58:21,604
state model it's a good model maybe a little bit tweaked and a little bit changed you know

1979
01:58:21,604 --> 01:58:29,624
but to think that your ancestors were you know created their own and now you're alive and you're

1980
01:58:29,624 --> 01:58:36,164
creating another one you know yeah well I think to me it's this important reason to have an

1981
01:58:36,164 --> 01:58:41,144
appreciation of your history and like where you came from and what your ancestors did and not to

1982
01:58:41,144 --> 01:58:46,784
say that oh my ancestors were great therefore I'm great it's more that you know look at what my

1983
01:58:46,784 --> 01:58:51,444
ancestors achieved, that can inspire me in the future. And if there is no future to it,

1984
01:58:51,864 --> 01:58:57,364
there's no point in doing it. So I think we've got to think that throughout the history of

1985
01:58:57,364 --> 01:59:01,544
Western civilization, when have we seen the most flourishing? In places like Renaissance Italy,

1986
01:59:01,984 --> 01:59:07,524
in places like when you had thousands of little city-states in modern-day Germany,

1987
01:59:07,644 --> 01:59:13,064
or during ancient Greece. The times we've seen the most development, and the times that stick

1988
01:59:13,064 --> 01:59:17,964
in the memories of Europeans is ancient Greece, is Renaissance Italy. And if that led to the

1989
01:59:17,964 --> 01:59:22,244
greatest flowering of culture, it can happen again, of course. And, you know, all these

1990
01:59:22,244 --> 01:59:26,384
little city-states merge into much larger states, but then collapse out. So I think

1991
01:59:26,384 --> 01:59:29,944
if we just look at our history, we think, well, you know, this can happen again. And,

1992
01:59:29,944 --> 01:59:35,244
you know, perhaps it's vital to, because sometimes larger nation-states, they don't need to

1993
01:59:35,244 --> 01:59:36,684
flourishing of culture, particularly.

1994
01:59:36,684 --> 01:59:43,004
I think it's vital because what you're describing is competition. It's a free

1995
01:59:43,004 --> 01:59:48,444
market like if you if if if you have a hundred greek islands and they all have different governance

1996
01:59:48,444 --> 01:59:55,504
models and it's easy to get between one and the other you get to see the in the free market which

1997
01:59:55,504 --> 02:00:02,044
ones do well this is the market showing us what governance model works best yeah the problem we

1998
02:00:02,044 --> 02:00:11,144
have currently is we have these behemothic states which command you know vast areas and don't allow

1999
02:00:11,144 --> 02:00:17,604
that yeah and we're so we're arguably we are at the we are at an inflection point where we get

2000
02:00:17,604 --> 02:00:25,304
to see that crumble again into smaller smaller decentralized governance models which would be

2001
02:00:25,304 --> 02:00:31,524
i mean that's obviously the dream who knows maybe in 500 years there might be 30 000 yeah i mean i

2002
02:00:31,524 --> 02:00:34,924
don't know i mean it could even be soon like for example you think of no one could have predicted

2003
02:00:34,924 --> 02:00:40,684
the ussr collapsing and like one uh i mean one of my favorite countries is turkmenistan um you know

2004
02:00:40,684 --> 02:00:45,864
the USSR collapses, Turkmenistan was part of the USSR. And then there is just this like random

2005
02:00:45,864 --> 02:00:52,724
dentist. And he thinks to himself, this whole region is mine. It's not only is it mine,

2006
02:00:53,044 --> 02:01:00,304
I am the king. I'm like the god of this place. Like he builds this golden statue of himself

2007
02:01:00,304 --> 02:01:05,424
made out of gold and puts it on this marble column. And it rotates around such that it always

2008
02:01:05,424 --> 02:01:09,804
faces the sun. So in Turkmenistan, there was this holy book that he wrote, where he's the prophet.

2009
02:01:09,804 --> 02:01:12,804
and the book is talking about him all the time.

2010
02:01:13,204 --> 02:01:17,604
And like, for me, what actually creates cities and culture

2011
02:01:17,604 --> 02:01:22,344
is usually like a couple of individuals imposing their tastes on a place.

2012
02:01:22,664 --> 02:01:23,684
So with this guy in Turkmenistan,

2013
02:01:24,124 --> 02:01:26,424
he declared that the whole city had to be made of white marble.

2014
02:01:26,824 --> 02:01:29,164
Every car that was not white was outlawed.

2015
02:01:30,004 --> 02:01:33,264
Or an example that's maybe closer to us is that, you know,

2016
02:01:33,324 --> 02:01:36,904
Paris was basically a giant slum for most of its existence.

2017
02:01:37,284 --> 02:01:39,024
And then Napoleon III comes along.

2018
02:01:39,024 --> 02:01:44,184
he decides to just knock down all of the slums and then build Paris as we know it today,

2019
02:01:44,304 --> 02:01:49,044
which is why when you walk around Paris, it is, you know, very uniform in the way that all the buildings appear.

2020
02:01:49,524 --> 02:01:54,144
So oftentimes it is, even if you might think a city is, you know,

2021
02:01:54,204 --> 02:01:56,684
millions of people potentially contributing towards its development,

2022
02:01:57,064 --> 02:02:02,504
it's usually just like the aesthetic tastes of a couple of individuals that really propel it forwards.

2023
02:02:03,364 --> 02:02:06,884
But what about the ideological places?

2024
02:02:06,884 --> 02:02:15,764
Do you think that, you know, like, because taste wise, I think, yes, a lot of people are drawn to a place because it looks nice.

2025
02:02:16,364 --> 02:02:26,164
But I think in this age, and I think one of the driving forces really that we see in movement is apart from economic freedom is physical freedom.

2026
02:02:26,164 --> 02:02:35,164
like you know we we know that from 2020 onwards lots more people started thinking about physical

2027
02:02:35,164 --> 02:02:41,464
freedom and about political freedom because we were all told to stay in our homes and a lot of

2028
02:02:41,464 --> 02:02:46,424
people went no why and then when they tried to get out they realized it caused them a lot of problems

2029
02:02:46,424 --> 02:02:54,384
and then a kind of a map of the world appears quite quickly and you can see which places are

2030
02:02:54,384 --> 02:03:01,124
more welcoming to you as a free free spirited person which which aren't and that's what i see

2031
02:03:01,124 --> 02:03:07,804
most people grappling with now it's like we're seeing many we're seeing the veil being pulled

2032
02:03:07,804 --> 02:03:15,984
back in in many senses um and as a result many institutions are basically stumbling many things

2033
02:03:15,984 --> 02:03:22,544
are stumbling because the veil is being pulled back you know from most things because of the

2034
02:03:22,544 --> 02:03:28,964
internet and because of the free free use of free use of information but then as it as it

2035
02:03:28,964 --> 02:03:32,964
people deal with that in many ways some people stick their heads further in the sand but a lot

2036
02:03:32,964 --> 02:03:38,304
of people are going okay right i presume i presume you've read the sovereign individual the book

2037
02:03:38,304 --> 02:03:45,644
no oh right okay the sovereign individual thesis which is a book written in the 90s which is

2038
02:03:45,644 --> 02:03:51,204
basically predicted the the world we see now which is the empowerment of the sovereign it's called

2039
02:03:51,204 --> 02:03:56,044
the sovereign individual in many ways now we we're living that you know you as a sovereign

2040
02:03:56,044 --> 02:04:01,104
individual could probably move anywhere in the world and make a living and live a good life and

2041
02:04:01,104 --> 02:04:05,904
you're very mobile with your capital now because you could as long as you you understand how

2042
02:04:05,904 --> 02:04:12,084
cryptocurrency works you can just leave with your whole net worth even in your head you don't even

2043
02:04:12,084 --> 02:04:19,804
need it on a on a hard drive or whatever um so so this is playing out now this this thesis and

2044
02:04:19,804 --> 02:04:21,284
There's two sides, obviously.

2045
02:04:21,404 --> 02:04:24,544
The sovereign individual is here and the state is here

2046
02:04:24,544 --> 02:04:25,904
and they're arch enemies.

2047
02:04:26,424 --> 02:04:30,724
And this is the kind of ebb and flow of culture,

2048
02:04:30,984 --> 02:04:34,004
of freedom, of control, you know, and it's been,

2049
02:04:34,004 --> 02:04:36,004
it never resolves.

2050
02:04:36,884 --> 02:04:39,444
It just continues ad infinitum.

2051
02:04:39,624 --> 02:04:42,724
But we do seem to be, because of technology now,

2052
02:04:42,824 --> 02:04:49,444
we do seem to be on a threshold where there are two paths ahead.

2053
02:04:49,444 --> 02:04:51,904
and I don't know how it plays out.

2054
02:04:52,244 --> 02:04:54,844
I know how I want it to play out for myself

2055
02:04:54,844 --> 02:04:56,044
and my family and friends.

2056
02:04:56,384 --> 02:04:58,904
And I hope that probably

2057
02:04:58,904 --> 02:05:02,464
there'll be parallel worlds that exist.

2058
02:05:02,724 --> 02:05:04,524
I think it's very hard to know

2059
02:05:04,524 --> 02:05:08,544
because we see technologies offering

2060
02:05:08,544 --> 02:05:10,624
the authoritarian state

2061
02:05:10,624 --> 02:05:12,924
a massive opportunity right now,

2062
02:05:13,444 --> 02:05:15,384
especially artificial intelligence.

2063
02:05:16,064 --> 02:05:18,244
Combine that with centralized power

2064
02:05:18,244 --> 02:05:29,244
And you can monitor almost every aspect of a person's life, pretty much, unless you're living on a barge in the middle between, you know, like Dubai and Iran.

2065
02:05:29,984 --> 02:05:36,104
And even then, probably, you can probably still get monitored there in the next 30 or 40 years, you know.

2066
02:05:36,104 --> 02:05:44,924
so so there need to be places where ideologically people understand no we don't actually want

2067
02:05:44,924 --> 02:05:51,664
this kind of of method of living and i'm pretty sure in the beginning they'll be at the fringes

2068
02:05:51,664 --> 02:05:57,184
they have to be yeah because the fringes are ungovernable and and you can't you can't conquer

2069
02:05:57,184 --> 02:06:02,264
the fringes either really because they're a waste of it's a waste of resources you know

2070
02:06:02,264 --> 02:06:06,504
authoritarians want to conquer the main bulk of everything it's like if you live in a city

2071
02:06:06,504 --> 02:06:11,464
you're you're easy to control if you live out in the middle of the countryside down the end of a

2072
02:06:11,464 --> 02:06:18,164
track you're much less cost effective to try and control you and i think you know a barge in the

2073
02:06:18,164 --> 02:06:24,324
middle of the straits of homos or wherever it was is is is a very hard who's going to spend money

2074
02:06:24,324 --> 02:06:30,204
trying to to stop that when it gets big enough maybe yeah you know it becomes a thing of interest

2075
02:06:30,204 --> 02:06:36,044
at that point but but um i don't know where how we got into this but yeah i mean one thing to follow

2076
02:06:36,044 --> 02:06:41,944
on from this is i think that like from a strategy perspective for new nation states i think or new

2077
02:06:41,944 --> 02:06:46,024
micronations or whatever i think it's very important not to be too ideological like you can

2078
02:06:46,024 --> 02:06:50,864
have your the ideology but i think it's important for it to be kind of implicit if you're if you're

2079
02:06:50,864 --> 02:06:55,104
very certain about all these sorts of things and you declare that to the world it's very easy for

2080
02:06:55,104 --> 02:06:59,044
people to attack your project like i think it could be better even for example for a seastead

2081
02:06:59,044 --> 02:07:04,204
instead of saying it's going to be this libertarian paradise where we can do all drugs and experiment

2082
02:07:04,204 --> 02:07:08,384
on people and do all these crazy things outside of control of the law you know maybe it's better

2083
02:07:08,384 --> 02:07:13,184
to say that okay we're making this seastead out in you know international waters and it's going to be

2084
02:07:13,184 --> 02:07:18,004
a you know i don't know a biodiversity research center you know we're going to experiment with

2085
02:07:18,004 --> 02:07:23,284
corals and breeding them and things like that and that being like the clear reason that you give to

2086
02:07:23,284 --> 02:07:28,404
the outside world because that's harder to attack i think that a lot of people that set up um like

2087
02:07:28,404 --> 02:07:32,724
micronations for ideological reasons are basically if they do that it's basically going to fail

2088
02:07:32,724 --> 02:07:36,964
straight away because you know large states are so powerful that if they see this they're just

2089
02:07:36,964 --> 02:07:41,024
going to crush you because even in international waters you're not outside control of the law

2090
02:07:41,024 --> 02:07:46,504
a navy can just send a destroyer and and you know destroy your project so i really don't think

2091
02:07:46,504 --> 02:07:51,804
ideology is the way to make it happen i think it's like legitimate businesses maybe yeah or

2092
02:07:51,804 --> 02:07:56,624
have you know a like like the business is the state or something and they have specific aims

2093
02:07:56,624 --> 02:07:57,724
that are palatable to people,

2094
02:07:58,004 --> 02:08:00,184
like, I don't know, rejuvenating this area of forest

2095
02:08:00,184 --> 02:08:02,644
and we're going to integrate this forest

2096
02:08:02,644 --> 02:08:03,704
with our, I don't know,

2097
02:08:03,764 --> 02:08:05,324
eco-restorative homes or whatever.

2098
02:08:05,484 --> 02:08:07,704
But I think that is a much better path forwards.

2099
02:08:07,984 --> 02:08:09,764
Like you say, doing it kind of underneath the radar,

2100
02:08:10,004 --> 02:08:11,264
but it's still being a public thing

2101
02:08:11,264 --> 02:08:12,484
where people can find out about it.

2102
02:08:13,144 --> 02:08:17,384
Mitchell Suchner would very much co-sign

2103
02:08:17,384 --> 02:08:18,284
what you've just said.

2104
02:08:19,304 --> 02:08:20,424
That's his theory.

2105
02:08:20,544 --> 02:08:22,044
And I understand it as well.

2106
02:08:22,124 --> 02:08:23,464
And I think it's true

2107
02:08:23,464 --> 02:08:25,864
because when you look at the,

2108
02:08:26,044 --> 02:08:27,264
when you look at, you know,

2109
02:08:27,264 --> 02:08:29,624
like if you go look at the origins of cities,

2110
02:08:30,324 --> 02:08:32,684
there's always a reason why a city is placed where it is.

2111
02:08:32,704 --> 02:08:34,064
And it's normally by a river

2112
02:08:34,064 --> 02:08:36,024
because you can bring goods.

2113
02:08:36,124 --> 02:08:37,884
It becomes like a merchant place.

2114
02:08:38,224 --> 02:08:39,624
Venice is a good example of that,

2115
02:08:39,724 --> 02:08:41,384
you know, run by merchants.

2116
02:08:42,104 --> 02:08:43,744
And Mitchell's idea,

2117
02:08:44,204 --> 02:08:47,324
he has a sort of a way in to seasteading,

2118
02:08:47,404 --> 02:08:48,944
which is you need a business first.

2119
02:08:49,144 --> 02:08:52,384
In his case, he's experimenting with tourism,

2120
02:08:52,384 --> 02:08:58,384
fish farms you know he's talking about mining eventually but i think that comes later but i

2121
02:08:58,384 --> 02:09:04,944
think you're right i think if you if you have a if you have a financially viable project before you

2122
02:09:04,944 --> 02:09:11,504
know it you you'll have a a community and a thriving community because the reason why people

2123
02:09:11,504 --> 02:09:17,984
are there is to make money and i think you know i mean dubai is arguably that dubai is a merchant

2124
02:09:17,984 --> 02:09:25,764
city you know and people don't go there to do politics nobody go moves to dubai to be political

2125
02:09:25,764 --> 02:09:31,944
at all because there is no real politics for you as an outsider you go there to be a merchant

2126
02:09:31,944 --> 02:09:37,864
to do business and to follow the rules that that seem to work and and if you're unhappy

2127
02:09:37,864 --> 02:09:44,964
with the way you're governed you get to leave i mean this is the really the whole thesis of this

2128
02:09:44,964 --> 02:09:50,164
you know and so yeah i think i think maybe you're right i think if you declare like vit has you know

2129
02:09:50,164 --> 02:09:56,944
if you declare okay we're going to start a micronation suddenly you're a person of interest

2130
02:09:56,944 --> 02:10:02,244
and your project is a project of interest because you're basically a direct threat if you're a

2131
02:10:02,244 --> 02:10:07,024
business you're actually someone who is not a threat necessarily you're actually someone who

2132
02:10:07,024 --> 02:10:13,784
might who might offer something in return but um but yeah what about landy though what was

2133
02:10:13,784 --> 02:10:19,844
what was he he wasn't well he was ideological wasn't he was a kind of leave me alone

2134
02:10:19,844 --> 02:10:25,404
don't tread on me kind of guy right i think landy he is someone that throughout his life

2135
02:10:25,404 --> 02:10:30,064
he wants to be on the frontiers like he i think he's like the kind of archetype of a person

2136
02:10:30,064 --> 02:10:36,384
that likes being in an environment where other people simply can't live you know he thinks like

2137
02:10:36,384 --> 02:10:40,644
being out on the scene obviously well he did of course die out there but as as you know the

2138
02:10:40,644 --> 02:10:46,204
frontiers are inherently dangerous but i think the kind of people that create new cities or you

2139
02:10:46,204 --> 02:10:50,304
you're asking earlier about you know what kind of a person creates venice i don't know about in the

2140
02:10:50,304 --> 02:10:55,244
specific case of venice but i could say in the case of the united states all of the founding fathers

2141
02:10:55,244 --> 02:10:59,844
were considered terrorists you know if the british caught them uh we would have hung them and you

2142
02:10:59,844 --> 02:11:05,184
know considered it a good job and it's like i interviewed joe for my film and he says um something

2143
02:11:05,184 --> 02:11:08,864
like the first pioneers who go to the frontiers

2144
02:11:08,864 --> 02:11:22,864
have always been outlaws who say what does he say He says fuck you to society fuck you fuck your laws I creating my own state or something like that But the point is you know new nation states don want to see other states popping up

2145
02:11:22,964 --> 02:11:25,864
They would rather absorb them into their territory.

2146
02:11:26,344 --> 02:11:27,964
And the people that want to create new states

2147
02:11:27,964 --> 02:11:30,724
are always going to have a strong incentive to do so,

2148
02:11:30,804 --> 02:11:31,504
like with Landy.

2149
02:11:31,644 --> 02:11:33,624
Even though it isn't actually a very important point to add,

2150
02:11:33,964 --> 02:11:35,944
which is that a lot of people think that

2151
02:11:35,944 --> 02:11:38,164
because Landy was some fugitive or something,

2152
02:11:38,164 --> 02:11:41,164
that he moved out to the ocean to be free from the law.

2153
02:11:41,384 --> 02:11:42,244
That's not the case at all.

2154
02:11:42,344 --> 02:11:43,204
He was living in Dubai.

2155
02:11:43,604 --> 02:11:46,024
He could have had a very nice, comfortable life in Dubai

2156
02:11:46,024 --> 02:11:47,004
for the rest of his days.

2157
02:11:47,184 --> 02:11:51,244
But instead he thought, you know, I want one last great adventure.

2158
02:11:51,844 --> 02:11:53,104
Like, wait, do I want to just, you know,

2159
02:11:53,124 --> 02:11:55,824
he's had this interview with him where he's saying,

2160
02:11:56,184 --> 02:11:58,144
you know, he's saying,

2161
02:11:58,224 --> 02:12:01,124
what is the most important thing you can have in your life?

2162
02:12:01,344 --> 02:12:03,364
The option to do what you like.

2163
02:12:03,984 --> 02:12:04,304
You know, anything.

2164
02:12:04,424 --> 02:12:07,404
Does he want to just spend his days having brunch in Dubai

2165
02:12:07,404 --> 02:12:10,884
or whatever, or does he want to go out to the ocean and try and create something new?

2166
02:12:11,384 --> 02:12:15,624
So I think that ultimately the people that create new societies, they are pretty much

2167
02:12:15,624 --> 02:12:17,304
always considered outlaws at the beginning.

2168
02:12:17,464 --> 02:12:22,284
But once they win and they establish a state, then they're these great founders of a new

2169
02:12:22,284 --> 02:12:22,964
nation.

2170
02:12:23,204 --> 02:12:26,024
And then the kind of the more normal people come and develop the vision.

2171
02:12:26,384 --> 02:12:31,544
But I think to even try and create a new state, you have to have a very strong incentive to

2172
02:12:31,544 --> 02:12:32,144
do so.

2173
02:12:32,604 --> 02:12:37,084
So I think really Landy is the archetype of the person that does want to create, you

2174
02:12:37,084 --> 02:12:38,724
you know, a new state.

2175
02:12:38,784 --> 02:12:39,424
And also with Landy,

2176
02:12:39,464 --> 02:12:40,884
I think the thing that's very admirable about him

2177
02:12:40,884 --> 02:12:42,984
is that this like drive for freedom

2178
02:12:42,984 --> 02:12:44,544
is ever present throughout his life.

2179
02:12:45,384 --> 02:12:47,184
Like there is one person I interviewed in Italy

2180
02:12:47,184 --> 02:12:49,724
who says, you know, he says in Italian,

2181
02:12:49,824 --> 02:12:51,984
but it translates to, he was a pirate,

2182
02:12:52,384 --> 02:12:54,944
but a white pirate who searches for liberty

2183
02:12:54,944 --> 02:12:57,064
for himself and for the others.

2184
02:12:57,424 --> 02:12:58,344
And it's like the story of,

2185
02:12:58,904 --> 02:12:59,524
that I was telling you earlier

2186
02:12:59,524 --> 02:13:01,364
about these girls that were enslaved in Oman.

2187
02:13:01,804 --> 02:13:04,564
For Landy, for him to find out about these people

2188
02:13:04,564 --> 02:13:07,104
that are living in such a fundamentally unfree way,

2189
02:13:07,404 --> 02:13:08,864
like it makes them like uncomfortable.

2190
02:13:09,064 --> 02:13:11,224
Like how can he find out about this

2191
02:13:11,224 --> 02:13:13,804
and not do everything that he can to help these girls escape?

2192
02:13:14,084 --> 02:13:15,084
And he told no one about this.

2193
02:13:15,184 --> 02:13:15,884
And oh yeah, I was talking about,

2194
02:13:16,424 --> 02:13:17,984
there was this journalist, I wouldn't mention her name,

2195
02:13:18,044 --> 02:13:22,384
but she was with me in Liberia and I introduced her

2196
02:13:22,384 --> 02:13:24,764
and she interviewed about 20 of these girls

2197
02:13:24,764 --> 02:13:26,604
that Landy had helped rescue.

2198
02:13:27,024 --> 02:13:28,524
And of course they were saying about the way

2199
02:13:28,524 --> 02:13:29,624
in which Landy coordinated everything.

2200
02:13:30,044 --> 02:13:32,404
And then she writes this article in the Financial Times

2201
02:13:32,404 --> 02:13:34,964
and she's talking about Landy being a Liberian diplomat

2202
02:13:34,964 --> 02:13:37,384
and then she says this story about how

2203
02:13:37,384 --> 02:13:40,304
there was two Liberian guys in the UAE

2204
02:13:40,304 --> 02:13:42,384
and they were getting deported back to Liberia

2205
02:13:42,384 --> 02:13:45,304
and Landy was like too chicken to go to the police station

2206
02:13:45,304 --> 02:13:46,004
to help them out.

2207
02:13:46,424 --> 02:13:48,744
And it's like, I was there when you interviewed

2208
02:13:48,744 --> 02:13:51,804
literally 20, not just one or two, 20 girls

2209
02:13:51,804 --> 02:13:53,524
and you didn't even mention it.

2210
02:13:53,904 --> 02:13:55,444
And it's almost like you realize that so many journalists,

2211
02:13:55,444 --> 02:13:59,904
even if she didn't make any factual errors

2212
02:13:59,904 --> 02:14:01,924
or lies in the article that she wrote,

2213
02:14:01,924 --> 02:14:07,064
you can make lies by omission and like people like landy there's almost like an incentive from you

2214
02:14:07,064 --> 02:14:11,464
know the powers that be whatever to portray him as this like raving idiot or this guy that's just

2215
02:14:11,464 --> 02:14:18,684
out for himself after me that's what's or or is it that the a lot of journalists can't get behind

2216
02:14:18,684 --> 02:14:26,524
somebody journalism in in in its modern incarnation is about slagging people off it's not about

2217
02:14:26,524 --> 02:14:32,984
showing why people are good i mean you look at politics is the same you never hear the other

2218
02:14:32,984 --> 02:14:39,084
side of the aisle in a debate go do you know what that's a pretty good idea i'm not gonna just

2219
02:14:39,084 --> 02:14:44,244
counteract counter you on this i'm actually gonna say yeah fair enough that's a good policy or

2220
02:14:44,244 --> 02:14:49,184
whatever you know it's it's always about bringing people down and the press i used to work in

2221
02:14:49,184 --> 02:14:55,664
fleet street you know and i was in london yesterday and i just it gives me the shivers

2222
02:14:55,664 --> 02:15:04,024
now being in a place like London I just think of it as you know just or anyone working in the

2223
02:15:04,024 --> 02:15:10,644
mainstream media now like if I accidentally turn on the tv somewhere and I'm in a hotel room and

2224
02:15:10,644 --> 02:15:15,584
the news comes on and you look at it and you go because I live in the what you would call the

2225
02:15:15,584 --> 02:15:21,664
alternative media like same as you it's just like a horrible that side of the aisle where they're

2226
02:15:21,664 --> 02:15:30,144
where they're reporting in a mainstream way is so wrong and driven by,

2227
02:15:31,824 --> 02:15:36,224
like you say, there's not necessarily a search for the truth.

2228
02:15:36,944 --> 02:15:40,284
There's a search for maintaining a narrative.

2229
02:15:40,944 --> 02:15:43,964
Like why wouldn't you want to tell the story?

2230
02:15:44,184 --> 02:15:45,744
Like if Landy, like you've managed to,

2231
02:15:46,044 --> 02:15:48,964
or it sounds like you're going to tell a very interesting story about the guy.

2232
02:15:48,964 --> 02:15:56,244
but in you know the financial times especially the story has to be this is a bad person doing

2233
02:15:56,244 --> 02:16:01,864
a bad thing like when do you ever hear i mean i don't read the financial times but i'm going to

2234
02:16:01,864 --> 02:16:08,164
guess they don't often glorify people unless it's milk this is keens or someone like that i don't

2235
02:16:08,164 --> 02:16:15,124
know no you know like it's not part of the journalistic you know modus operandi anymore

2236
02:16:15,124 --> 02:16:18,844
to sort of say, to be positive about things.

2237
02:16:19,264 --> 02:16:20,124
You know what I mean?

2238
02:16:20,284 --> 02:16:20,684
Yeah, yeah.

2239
02:16:20,724 --> 02:16:22,744
Because there is a positive side to almost everything.

2240
02:16:23,504 --> 02:16:24,724
Even like, for example, with Landy,

2241
02:16:24,744 --> 02:16:25,424
I was saying earlier about,

2242
02:16:25,824 --> 02:16:27,664
in the very opening scene of the film,

2243
02:16:27,944 --> 02:16:29,764
and Google Samuel E. Landy's name,

2244
02:16:29,904 --> 02:16:30,804
researching who he is,

2245
02:16:31,164 --> 02:16:31,864
and it says, you know,

2246
02:16:32,224 --> 02:16:34,724
Interpol have arrested Samuel E. Landy in Abu Dhabi.

2247
02:16:34,824 --> 02:16:35,604
There's that news article.

2248
02:16:36,384 --> 02:16:37,724
And the news article is entirely fake.

2249
02:16:38,004 --> 02:16:39,424
Like, for example, Landy was not arrested

2250
02:16:39,424 --> 02:16:40,624
by Interpol in Abu Dhabi,

2251
02:16:41,044 --> 02:16:42,484
clearly, because he was still a free man.

2252
02:16:42,484 --> 02:16:44,264
And yet, you know, Rai, the biggest,

2253
02:16:44,264 --> 02:16:49,364
kind of like, you know, the equivalent of the BBC in Italy, published this article such that everyone

2254
02:16:49,364 --> 02:16:53,404
that ever looks up Landy immediately associates with him with Interpol. But you realize that was

2255
02:16:53,404 --> 02:16:58,544
like totally not true whatsoever. And just by publishing that article, people's perceptions

2256
02:16:58,544 --> 02:17:03,044
of him are entirely changed. And so that's kind of what I hope through this film is to actually,

2257
02:17:03,164 --> 02:17:07,844
you know, tell the real story of Landy from the people that knew him and to have him as this

2258
02:17:07,844 --> 02:17:12,984
archetype of someone that, you know, was trying to create these new, these new states, you know,

2259
02:17:12,984 --> 02:17:19,124
out at sea or you know and be this inspiration without you know overselling him yes you know him

2260
02:17:19,124 --> 02:17:23,644
you've known him briefly you've had a lot of contact with him was he a decent guy is he a

2261
02:17:23,644 --> 02:17:28,344
nice guy is he or do you think there's there's there's a dark side to him or this like what why

2262
02:17:28,344 --> 02:17:33,804
did the financial times paint him as a as a as a yeah so i can tell you very specifically why the

2263
02:17:33,804 --> 02:17:39,144
financial times paint him as a bad guy which is that so whilst landy was out at sea there was all

2264
02:17:39,144 --> 02:17:44,004
these journalists that would start running these articles like why is an international fugitive

2265
02:17:44,004 --> 02:17:52,344
the main advisor to the world's largest carbon credit fund and you think what so landy worked

2266
02:17:52,344 --> 02:17:56,644
for this company called blue carbon and blue carbon is owned by the royal family in the uae

2267
02:17:56,644 --> 02:18:03,364
and they they sell carbon credits and i suppose at least publicly it just says that you landy

2268
02:18:03,364 --> 02:18:09,604
helped give this company um you know it support and anyway so this journalist um she's a climate

2269
02:18:09,604 --> 02:18:13,864
change reporter and she obviously wants to make you know carbon credits look as silly as possible

2270
02:18:13,864 --> 02:18:19,784
so she has you know landy is helping out this company in some way and she makes she wants to

2271
02:18:19,784 --> 02:18:23,664
make carbon credits look very foolish and wants to make landy look like a fool i mean even just

2272
02:18:23,664 --> 02:18:28,524
on the topic of carbon credits um i'll say where they're bad good but i think ultimately the the

2273
02:18:28,524 --> 02:18:33,264
idea of them is is a positive one which you think there are these nations that are forested they

2274
02:18:33,264 --> 02:18:39,364
are, you know, very, very poor, that keeping the forests to them, just letting them be is there's

2275
02:18:39,364 --> 02:18:44,404
no economic incentive to do so whatsoever. So the idea with a carbon credit is you say, well, this,

2276
02:18:44,584 --> 02:18:48,404
this is, you know, the lungs of the world, in some sense, this helps clean the world's air.

2277
02:18:48,744 --> 02:18:54,424
And we are going to create this, this, you know, this token or this asset, that means that we value

2278
02:18:54,424 --> 02:18:59,624
the economic benefit that carbon credits give. Obviously, the way that it's executed, maybe

2279
02:18:59,624 --> 02:19:03,984
scammy, maybe not, whatever. But in principle, the idea is a good one. I suppose at least what

2280
02:19:03,984 --> 02:19:09,584
Landy thought is that this seems quite intuitive. We create this thing that means that Forrest can

2281
02:19:09,584 --> 02:19:15,204
still stay up. So that was at least why the Financial Times don't like Landy. And for me,

2282
02:19:15,204 --> 02:19:20,684
it's like I just respect the energy with which he lives his life. It's this energy of always

2283
02:19:20,684 --> 02:19:25,464
be willing to start over again, you know, instead of when the Italian government tries to lock you

2284
02:19:25,464 --> 02:19:29,424
in prison you think no you know i'm going to escape i'm going to move to dubai i'm going to

2285
02:19:29,424 --> 02:19:33,984
set up a new tech company in dubai this one crypt hotel i talked about earlier making cryptid mobile

2286
02:19:33,984 --> 02:19:38,644
phones you know i get bored of that you know i'm friends with all of these people in africa and

2287
02:19:38,644 --> 02:19:44,264
why not move out to the sea to me that's like it's a very romantic way it's a very like energetic way

2288
02:19:44,264 --> 02:19:49,064
in which to live your life like he's someone where like just i think the thing that guides him really

2289
02:19:49,064 --> 02:19:55,564
is adventure and um i mean even from my my my own uh you know with this film there's something like

2290
02:19:55,564 --> 02:19:59,804
very romantic about you know uh meeting a guy like prince johnson like he was this um you know

2291
02:19:59,804 --> 02:20:04,404
liberian warlord or whatever and for me it's like it's fun it's like being in a place where other

2292
02:20:04,404 --> 02:20:08,884
people are afraid to go you know and these like strange characters that you meet and in faraway

2293
02:20:08,884 --> 02:20:14,424
lands like it's kind of this this adventurous spirit is ultimately what creates you know what

2294
02:20:14,424 --> 02:20:18,024
for example creates the british empire and spreads technology around the world whatever you think

2295
02:20:18,024 --> 02:20:21,804
about it ultimately you know the industrial revolution starts in england and it spreads

2296
02:20:21,804 --> 02:20:25,844
around the world in a major part because of the british empire whether you agree with it or not

2297
02:20:25,844 --> 02:20:30,924
this is the thing that spreads civilization for civilization to spread you know it has to expand

2298
02:20:30,924 --> 02:20:36,644
for me landy he's always he's always he's an adventurer and uh you know it's hard not to admire

2299
02:20:36,644 --> 02:20:42,684
someone like that yeah you what you've just said well almost certainly pissed lots of

2300
02:20:42,684 --> 02:20:50,224
people off in certain political ways i i i don't agree or disagree with it same with carbon credits

2301
02:20:50,224 --> 02:20:56,344
i i think i could probably argue carbon credits from both sides one that it's terrible and one

2302
02:20:56,344 --> 02:21:03,064
that it's okay i just see who's involved with carbon credits and think yeah dodgy af you know

2303
02:21:03,064 --> 02:21:08,204
but i i don't i don't really know i i don't even there's too many things to care about in the world

2304
02:21:08,204 --> 02:21:09,284
these days, isn't there?

2305
02:21:09,724 --> 02:21:10,044
Yeah, yeah.

2306
02:21:10,624 --> 02:21:12,944
You know, you can't address all of them.

2307
02:21:13,604 --> 02:21:15,004
We've been going a very long time,

2308
02:21:15,164 --> 02:21:18,704
but I think I might start sort of wrapping it up slowly.

2309
02:21:19,404 --> 02:21:20,684
I have a good way to wrap things up,

2310
02:21:20,764 --> 02:21:21,444
but go ahead with your questions.

2311
02:21:21,444 --> 02:21:22,364
Well, I was going to say,

2312
02:21:22,764 --> 02:21:26,244
you were going to mention how the film was going to end.

2313
02:21:26,244 --> 02:21:27,324
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

2314
02:21:27,604 --> 02:21:29,384
So maybe, was that what you were thinking as well?

2315
02:21:29,584 --> 02:21:30,464
It was, it was indeed.

2316
02:21:30,464 --> 02:21:31,504
Okay, yeah, let's go there then.

2317
02:21:31,564 --> 02:21:33,524
Well, let's take like a 10 second break.

2318
02:21:33,604 --> 02:21:34,364
I'll grab some water.

2319
02:21:34,484 --> 02:21:35,044
Oh, okay, yeah.

2320
02:21:35,044 --> 02:21:36,044
And then we'll jump into,

2321
02:21:36,104 --> 02:21:37,164
would you like more water as well?

2322
02:21:37,164 --> 02:21:44,644
yes thanks of course i'm i'm gonna have to try and keep speaking again because i'm sick of

2323
02:21:44,644 --> 02:21:51,904
having to um edit things like this this is going to be a very free-flowing uh

2324
02:21:51,904 --> 02:21:59,884
unedited at all um episode thank you very much indeed right okay

2325
02:21:59,884 --> 02:22:04,944
we should have bought

2326
02:22:04,944 --> 02:22:07,384
we should have just bought a jug in here

2327
02:22:07,384 --> 02:22:08,704
yeah that would have been a smart move

2328
02:22:08,704 --> 02:22:09,424
so

2329
02:22:09,424 --> 02:22:16,084
so I'll tell a story first

2330
02:22:16,084 --> 02:22:17,044
it's totally disconnected

2331
02:22:17,044 --> 02:22:20,104
it will seem disconnected but it's actually entirely

2332
02:22:20,104 --> 02:22:21,964
related which is that

2333
02:22:21,964 --> 02:22:23,504
so

2334
02:22:23,504 --> 02:22:26,324
in Germany in 1248

2335
02:22:26,324 --> 02:22:28,064
there was this archbishop

2336
02:22:28,064 --> 02:22:36,484
That sounds, there's like something that, what's his name, the Russian, what's his name?

2337
02:22:36,664 --> 02:22:37,644
Jesus, my mind.

2338
02:22:37,884 --> 02:22:38,904
Who runs Russia?

2339
02:22:39,364 --> 02:22:39,604
Putin?

2340
02:22:39,724 --> 02:22:40,124
Putin.

2341
02:22:40,444 --> 02:22:40,664
Yeah.

2342
02:22:40,864 --> 02:22:42,104
That's a Putin move.

2343
02:22:43,184 --> 02:22:46,064
He did a whole interview with Tucker Carlson.

2344
02:22:46,144 --> 02:22:46,584
Did you hear that?

2345
02:22:46,804 --> 02:22:47,304
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2346
02:22:47,524 --> 02:22:48,344
And he did that.

2347
02:22:48,464 --> 02:22:48,644
Go on.

2348
02:22:49,084 --> 02:22:49,724
Start it again.

2349
02:22:49,744 --> 02:22:50,024
Sorry.

2350
02:22:50,024 --> 02:23:00,584
So in 1248, there was this German archbishop called Archbishop, I think it was like Conrad von Hofstaten or something like that.

2351
02:23:00,924 --> 02:23:01,024
Sure.

2352
02:23:01,244 --> 02:23:05,764
And this archbishop, he wanted to create the largest cathedral in Europe.

2353
02:23:06,404 --> 02:23:10,984
So he got these architects and they drew the designs for the cathedral.

2354
02:23:11,404 --> 02:23:14,644
It was going to be this giant twin-inspired church.

2355
02:23:14,644 --> 02:23:23,624
he found the best location for it and he laid the cornerstone of the church and anyway he ran out of

2356
02:23:23,624 --> 02:23:29,944
funds this project was forgotten then 600 years later in the 1800s there are these monks that

2357
02:23:29,944 --> 02:23:35,884
were going through these archives and they found the designs for the cathedral and they then you

2358
02:23:35,884 --> 02:23:40,184
know found the proposed spot they found the cornerstone and then they used the cornerstone

2359
02:23:40,184 --> 02:23:44,064
and they built then the largest twin-spired cathedral in Europe.

2360
02:23:44,624 --> 02:23:47,464
And it is, I think, yes, the Cologne Cathedral.

2361
02:23:47,984 --> 02:23:52,324
I believe it's actually the most visited landmark in Germany in the present day.

2362
02:23:53,084 --> 02:23:57,124
So, I mean, bear that in mind then with how it relates to the end of the film.

2363
02:23:57,284 --> 02:23:57,524
Okay.

2364
02:23:58,884 --> 02:24:06,164
So, when I was in Liberia, you know, investigating Landy's life and finding all that about him,

2365
02:24:06,164 --> 02:24:09,324
I, oh, there's actually another thing that I have to say before this.

2366
02:24:10,844 --> 02:24:15,604
So Landy's plan was that he wanted to move his floating platform

2367
02:24:15,604 --> 02:24:17,144
from between Dubai and Iran,

2368
02:24:17,644 --> 02:24:20,964
from there to this place in the Indian Ocean called the Sayadamala.

2369
02:24:21,644 --> 02:24:22,584
I don't know if you've heard about it,

2370
02:24:22,604 --> 02:24:25,464
but it's something that Joe often talks about, Mitchell talks about.

2371
02:24:25,464 --> 02:24:29,784
Is it an area where the seas, it's like an underground sea mountain or something?

2372
02:24:29,784 --> 02:24:32,464
Exactly. It's like a sea mount off the coast of Madagascar.

2373
02:24:32,884 --> 02:24:33,284
Underwater.

2374
02:24:33,284 --> 02:24:34,304
Underwater, exactly, yes.

2375
02:24:34,864 --> 02:24:37,424
And so it's very shallow. It's near the equator.

2376
02:24:37,424 --> 02:24:41,464
and you know when it's very shallow it means it's easy to build structures there so even if there's

2377
02:24:41,464 --> 02:24:46,764
giant storms you know you can have these sort of um sort of metal things coming out of the sea or

2378
02:24:46,764 --> 02:24:51,644
whatever anyway that was where landy wants to go to and a lot of seasteaders consider this the best

2379
02:24:51,644 --> 02:25:01,384
place so whilst i was in liberia i started having these dreams and in the dream i was flying above

2380
02:25:01,384 --> 02:25:09,984
the Sayadamala. And beneath the waves, I saw this giant colossus head of Landi. It was about three

2381
02:25:09,984 --> 02:25:19,044
meters, and it was bronze. And in the dream, there are these piratical band of men that come out,

2382
02:25:19,104 --> 02:25:23,424
and they're searching for the head. And in the dream, when they find it, they raise the head up

2383
02:25:23,424 --> 02:25:29,404
from the depths, and they make a full colossus, the Colossus of Landi. And around the Colossus of

2384
02:25:29,404 --> 02:25:35,424
Shulandi, a city-state develops out in the Sayada Mala. And I had this dream multiple times, and I'm

2385
02:25:35,424 --> 02:25:40,604
someone that has very intense, vivid dreams. And whenever you have a dream a second time, you

2386
02:25:40,604 --> 02:25:45,944
instantly clock, well, I've already had this dream. So I had this recurring dream, and I was thinking

2387
02:25:45,944 --> 02:25:52,824
about it a lot, and I thought, you know, what if this dream is not just a nighttime vision, but what

2388
02:25:52,824 --> 02:25:58,644
if this is a vision of the future? What if this is a way, or what if this is going to be the way in

2389
02:25:58,644 --> 02:26:05,844
which a city develops on the Saadamala. So I thought, well, if this is to happen, how could

2390
02:26:05,844 --> 02:26:10,944
it be? It is, of course, a possibility. You can imagine that, you know, they could actually make

2391
02:26:10,944 --> 02:26:15,204
a colossus of Landy there, and they could build a city around him. And a lot of great cities from

2392
02:26:15,204 --> 02:26:19,604
antiquity, you know, the colossus of Rhodes or any city, you need to have these monuments that

2393
02:26:19,604 --> 02:26:24,824
everyone can identify with. You know, Landy is this great pioneer that he died trying to create

2394
02:26:24,824 --> 02:26:29,944
a city-state here, but maybe we continue his legacy. Just as there was Wolf Hilberts that

2395
02:26:29,944 --> 02:26:34,904
wanted to make a floating city in the Sayadamala, Wolf Hilberts died, the idea passes to Joe,

2396
02:26:35,284 --> 02:26:41,344
the idea passes to Landy. This idea of a city-state in the Sayadamala has passed from person to person

2397
02:26:41,344 --> 02:26:45,164
to person, and I hope that it will continue on. So I thought about this, and I thought, well,

2398
02:26:45,304 --> 02:26:50,924
if this was to be real, how could it be real? And I realized that what is my role then in the dream?

2399
02:26:50,924 --> 02:26:56,264
what I have to do. So I realized, well, it's quite obvious what my role is. My role is,

2400
02:26:56,304 --> 02:27:03,624
is I have to make a three meter bronze colossus head of Landy. And so it is, at first,

2401
02:27:04,964 --> 02:27:10,404
you know, I tried to get, it's very difficult to fundraise for such a thing. And I got these

2402
02:27:10,404 --> 02:27:17,544
French sculptors to make a prototype version of it, which is 40 centimeters high in bronze.

2403
02:27:17,544 --> 02:27:24,564
And these people are called Atelier Mazur, and they are currently trying to build like a giant statue of Prometheus in the United States.

2404
02:27:24,944 --> 02:27:26,784
And they want it to be larger than the Statue of Liberty.

2405
02:27:27,264 --> 02:27:34,944
So when I walked into their workshops in Paris, I saw this, you know, giant head that was, you know, much, much taller than the height of this room.

2406
02:27:35,044 --> 02:27:36,644
And I thought, well, these are the guys to make it.

2407
02:27:37,124 --> 02:27:38,544
So anyway, I...

2408
02:27:38,544 --> 02:27:40,044
Out of bronze as well?

2409
02:27:40,044 --> 02:27:40,964
Out of bronze, yes.

2410
02:27:41,744 --> 02:27:42,364
It's going to be heavy.

2411
02:27:42,824 --> 02:27:43,864
About two to three tons.

2412
02:27:43,864 --> 02:27:50,624
so they you know they made the prototype version 40 centimeters in bronze and um anyway they were

2413
02:27:50,624 --> 02:27:54,904
charging a massive amount of money to make a three meter version they were charging like 200,000

2414
02:27:54,904 --> 02:27:59,564
US dollars I tried a lot you know I tried I tried my best to raise that money but it wasn't possible

2415
02:27:59,564 --> 02:28:06,424
so anyway um uh so I figured well I've got this bronze prototype you know I don't have 200,000

2416
02:28:06,424 --> 02:28:11,684
dollars I mean how can I proceed so anyway I got the head uh 3D scanned and I figured well like

2417
02:28:11,684 --> 02:28:15,164
around the world, like who are the best people at making colossal structures?

2418
02:28:15,844 --> 02:28:18,964
The number one people are undoubtedly the North Koreans.

2419
02:28:19,304 --> 02:28:21,984
They make a lot of colossuses all around the world, in Africa.

2420
02:28:22,444 --> 02:28:24,084
They've done projects in Poland, in Germany.

2421
02:28:24,704 --> 02:28:27,004
Maybe I can't get the North Koreans to build this for me.

2422
02:28:27,284 --> 02:28:29,844
But the second best place is in Thailand,

2423
02:28:30,024 --> 02:28:32,784
because they build giant bronze Buddhas all the time.

2424
02:28:32,964 --> 02:28:36,984
So I got the small model of Landy that Atelier Mazur made.

2425
02:28:37,064 --> 02:28:40,264
It's been very accurately 3D scanned, sent to this foundry in Thailand.

2426
02:28:40,264 --> 02:28:43,164
And they have already built the three meter wax model.

2427
02:28:43,624 --> 02:28:50,924
And they are soon going to be cast it in, I think, around April the 1st is the current roadmap.

2428
02:28:50,924 --> 02:28:57,504
And I would like to say that this bronze head is going to be larger than any bronze head that was created in antiquity of a real person.

2429
02:28:58,064 --> 02:29:05,164
So in terms of the history of the European peoples, the largest colossus head ever made of any real person is Lenin.

2430
02:29:05,164 --> 02:29:12,944
so far the second largest colossus head made of any european person is samuel elandi the third

2431
02:29:12,944 --> 02:29:18,384
largest is constantine the great who was the uh the roman emperor that had the largest bronze head

2432
02:29:18,384 --> 02:29:24,104
made so anyway the construction is underway um i can show you already um what has been done now

2433
02:29:24,104 --> 02:29:29,824
i've done a lot of filming what are you going to do with it then well think it no well in the dream

2434
02:29:29,824 --> 02:29:39,804
The dream is that in the Sayadamala, there are these men, or maybe women too, that go out to the Sayadamala and find this head of Landi.

2435
02:29:40,384 --> 02:29:42,824
So, well, I have to take it to the Sayadamala.

2436
02:29:43,484 --> 02:29:54,784
And the way the film will end is that you will have this shot of this three-meter bronze head being lowered into the seas in the Sayadamala and laid to rest there.

2437
02:29:54,784 --> 02:30:00,464
And the hope is that when people see this, this is such a powerful image

2438
02:30:00,504 --> 02:30:04,924
Like imagine seeing this three meter bronze head, it's hard to get such a thing out of your mind.

2439
02:30:05,304 --> 02:30:08,824
And my hope is that one of the viewers may see this and they may think,

2440
02:30:09,244 --> 02:30:13,724
what if it is me? You know, what if I will raise this bronze head up from the depths?

2441
02:30:14,084 --> 02:30:19,344
And maybe, like I said with the story of Archbishop von Konrad Hofstetten, whatever he's called,

2442
02:30:19,704 --> 02:30:23,264
maybe this head lies there for a few hundred years, maybe it's forgotten.

2443
02:30:23,484 --> 02:30:28,644
But given that the Saadamala is maybe the best place to build a floating city around the world,

2444
02:30:28,644 --> 02:30:30,504
that even if it's entirely forgotten,

2445
02:30:30,884 --> 02:30:33,444
in the future, if people are going to build a floating city,

2446
02:30:33,744 --> 02:30:35,544
it is likely they will choose the Sayadamala.

2447
02:30:35,784 --> 02:30:37,404
And if they do choose the Sayadamala,

2448
02:30:37,704 --> 02:30:39,824
it's likely that they would do a lot of research about the place.

2449
02:30:40,144 --> 02:30:42,624
Maybe they might find out about the Legend of Landy,

2450
02:30:42,664 --> 02:30:43,644
and they might find out about it,

2451
02:30:43,924 --> 02:30:45,484
and think, well, isn't there this bronze head

2452
02:30:45,484 --> 02:30:47,004
we should go and raise up from the depths?

2453
02:30:47,144 --> 02:30:48,104
Or maybe they won't.

2454
02:30:48,464 --> 02:30:50,024
Maybe they'll go out to the Sayadamala,

2455
02:30:50,164 --> 02:30:51,764
and they'll do these sonar scans,

2456
02:30:52,144 --> 02:30:54,484
and figure out how they should construct this city,

2457
02:30:54,744 --> 02:30:56,504
and then they'll find, wait a minute,

2458
02:30:56,564 --> 02:30:58,404
that's a giant hunk of bronze, you know,

2459
02:30:58,404 --> 02:31:05,144
on a sonar that thing is going to be very uh very easy to detect so the hope is that perhaps this is

2460
02:31:05,144 --> 02:31:13,084
this will happen that's like the idea is is that ideas live independently of humans someone can

2461
02:31:13,084 --> 02:31:20,824
write an idea in a book and that person dies 600 years later the idea is picked up so this is how

2462
02:31:20,824 --> 02:31:27,684
i want landy to be remembered and ultimately if landy is a is maybe landy is a fool and uh his

2463
02:31:27,684 --> 02:31:33,544
life will sink into obscurity. That's not for me to decide. That is for future humans to decide.

2464
02:31:33,864 --> 02:31:38,364
But maybe they may think the opposite. Maybe they'll think this idea of creating a floating

2465
02:31:38,364 --> 02:31:42,744
city is a good one. They'll go to the Sayadamala. They will raise him up from the depths and he

2466
02:31:42,744 --> 02:31:48,104
will then be remembered as this great pioneer. It's not for me to decide, but I want to lay the

2467
02:31:48,104 --> 02:31:54,364
seed. I want to lay the keystone of the city in the Sayadamala. I want to place the first piece

2468
02:31:54,364 --> 02:31:55,844
and maybe others will continue.

2469
02:31:56,344 --> 02:31:58,164
I mean, it depends how deep,

2470
02:31:58,364 --> 02:32:01,444
how spiritual you want to get about it

2471
02:32:01,444 --> 02:32:05,524
because you could argue that you're anchoring the idea

2472
02:32:05,524 --> 02:32:09,264
in a different dimension as well.

2473
02:32:10,064 --> 02:32:11,564
Who knows what goes on?

2474
02:32:11,564 --> 02:32:16,324
I mean, I'm open to understanding things

2475
02:32:16,324 --> 02:32:17,464
in a completely different way,

2476
02:32:17,544 --> 02:32:21,384
but I probably believe that the intention behind that

2477
02:32:21,384 --> 02:32:28,504
would be so big that there would be some kind of you know how would you describe it some kind of

2478
02:32:28,504 --> 02:32:35,064
energetic version that was all also there how deep is it by the way at the side of mala like

2479
02:32:35,064 --> 02:32:41,244
are you talking like 20 meters so the side of mala varies greatly in depth of course i will

2480
02:32:41,244 --> 02:32:45,744
not say exactly where the side of mala is a fairly large area of course i will not say exactly where

2481
02:32:45,744 --> 02:32:49,864
it is i don't want anyone to go and you know steal it or something but anyone do you think people

2482
02:32:49,864 --> 02:32:55,724
would i don't think so i think the value of the bronze is actually you probably you'd pay a lot

2483
02:32:55,724 --> 02:32:59,824
in fuel to actually get out there i think it wouldn't really make economic sense to try and

2484
02:32:59,824 --> 02:33:05,644
salvage it and melt it down but it's only for the committed you know i'm not so how deep would you

2485
02:33:05,644 --> 02:33:12,004
oh yeah so depth wise yes um so the side of marla varies greatly i think the shallowest part of it

2486
02:33:12,004 --> 02:33:17,624
is i think the shallowest part that i've seen on on charts is eight meters eight some of it though

2487
02:33:17,624 --> 02:33:22,164
is more like 30. Some of it is hundreds of meters. It varies a great amount because you have these

2488
02:33:22,164 --> 02:33:26,504
kind of seamounts, you know, where it rises up. Maybe I'd put it on one of the shallowest parts,

2489
02:33:26,684 --> 02:33:31,664
but also the deeper it goes, the greater the longevity of it because there's less oxygen

2490
02:33:31,664 --> 02:33:36,904
in deeper waters. And there's also protective measures that we can take. Like there have been

2491
02:33:36,904 --> 02:33:42,244
bronze statues that have been found over 2000 years later in the ocean that have been in great

2492
02:33:42,244 --> 02:33:48,144
condition so maybe the maybe landy will just live on in bronze you know for thousands of years i do

2493
02:33:48,144 --> 02:33:54,624
know the feeling when you're making a documentary of not knowing how to end it i've never gone down

2494
02:33:54,624 --> 02:33:59,384
that route though that's very funny that's very interesting like because there isn't an obvious

2495
02:33:59,384 --> 02:34:04,924
end and i don't know maybe there wasn't an obvious end but now now you know i can imagine

2496
02:34:04,924 --> 02:34:11,484
um the final shot when you're sort of swimming away from the bronze and it just disappears into

2497
02:34:11,484 --> 02:34:16,224
the sea and you know underwater that is yeah you know something along those lines or something

2498
02:34:16,224 --> 02:34:24,244
wow so yeah i mean have you told does joe know about this i take it yeah yeah yeah very much so

2499
02:34:24,244 --> 02:34:29,764
what does his family think about the fact that their dad's gonna be they have a massive head

2500
02:34:29,764 --> 02:34:36,784
under the sea do they think you're a little bit yeah i mean also he when did he die i mean it must

2501
02:34:36,784 --> 02:34:38,064
February the 2nd, 2024.

2502
02:34:38,344 --> 02:34:41,624
So it's even, probably they're still grieving and stuff.

2503
02:34:41,924 --> 02:34:41,944
Yes.

2504
02:34:42,644 --> 02:34:46,884
But ultimately, you know, Landy is someone who has been much maligned by the media.

2505
02:34:47,204 --> 02:34:49,484
He has received very little good publicity in his life.

2506
02:34:49,544 --> 02:34:54,084
And he was just basically living his life outside of that.

2507
02:34:54,424 --> 02:34:59,184
And my film, I hope, will tell, like, the true energetic story of his life.

2508
02:34:59,184 --> 02:35:02,924
And, like, for me, it's not even just about him, his life specifically.

2509
02:35:02,924 --> 02:35:05,904
it's about the energy with which he lived his own life

2510
02:35:05,904 --> 02:35:07,764
and the intensity with which he lived it

2511
02:35:07,764 --> 02:35:09,144
and maybe people will see this film

2512
02:35:09,144 --> 02:35:10,124
maybe it's not seasteading

2513
02:35:10,124 --> 02:35:12,924
but it might inspire them in some other direction

2514
02:35:12,924 --> 02:35:15,304
so for me it is this great

2515
02:35:15,304 --> 02:35:18,664
yes, way of energy of ending the film

2516
02:35:18,664 --> 02:35:21,104
I mean, you've been shooting for a long time

2517
02:35:21,104 --> 02:35:21,804
haven't you?

2518
02:35:21,984 --> 02:35:22,944
it's a pretty long

2519
02:35:22,944 --> 02:35:24,184
yes, it's been going on well

2520
02:35:24,184 --> 02:35:25,744
the film I suppose started

2521
02:35:25,744 --> 02:35:28,824
probably in October of 2023

2522
02:35:28,824 --> 02:35:31,144
which is when I first met Landy

2523
02:35:31,144 --> 02:35:33,264
so yeah it's been going on for

2524
02:35:33,264 --> 02:35:34,344
what two years and a bit

2525
02:35:34,344 --> 02:35:35,444
and have you sold it?

2526
02:35:35,904 --> 02:35:46,668
no no no I also have pretty much almost entirely retained control of like I own pretty much everything Some of my friends have invested a little bit of money into it but it just like me and my friends

2527
02:35:46,668 --> 02:35:47,528
And where do you imagine?

2528
02:35:47,688 --> 02:35:53,328
I mean, I'm just thinking, is it a Netflix documentary or is it, do you want to go turn it into bits?

2529
02:35:53,568 --> 02:35:53,788
Well.

2530
02:35:54,048 --> 02:35:55,788
Can you do anything bigger than that these days?

2531
02:35:55,928 --> 02:35:59,728
Like where, how do you, what's the biggest a documentary can be these days?

2532
02:36:00,068 --> 02:36:00,908
I don't know.

2533
02:36:00,908 --> 02:36:08,168
I mean, I think it's a documentary where it's something quite, it's fresh.

2534
02:36:08,368 --> 02:36:14,668
It's not something that you would see, you know, you couldn't see, oh, I've seen that already.

2535
02:36:14,808 --> 02:36:16,348
There's a million films like that one.

2536
02:36:16,628 --> 02:36:16,908
I don't know.

2537
02:36:16,968 --> 02:36:17,668
I don't know how to live.

2538
02:36:17,668 --> 02:36:19,088
Yeah, but you have to make money as well.

2539
02:36:19,128 --> 02:36:19,808
Of course, of course.

2540
02:36:20,248 --> 02:36:24,008
I mean, at least the strategy at the moment is reaching out to lots of different distributors,

2541
02:36:24,428 --> 02:36:26,868
sending them cuts of the film, seeing who is interested.

2542
02:36:26,868 --> 02:36:29,328
I mean at least the advice that I've been given

2543
02:36:29,328 --> 02:36:31,908
is that you don't want to

2544
02:36:31,908 --> 02:36:33,788
sell it to a distributor before it's done

2545
02:36:33,788 --> 02:36:35,848
because often times they will then

2546
02:36:35,848 --> 02:36:37,968
want a lot of creative control and ultimately

2547
02:36:37,968 --> 02:36:39,908
then you're kind of beholden to them

2548
02:36:39,908 --> 02:36:41,108
and their vision so

2549
02:36:41,108 --> 02:36:43,688
currently I'm reaching out to lots of different distributors

2550
02:36:43,688 --> 02:36:45,748
and when the film is finished then

2551
02:36:45,748 --> 02:36:47,968
shop around and see which one

2552
02:36:47,968 --> 02:36:49,788
will you know which one's most into it

2553
02:36:49,788 --> 02:36:51,708
The dream of course and I don't know whether

2554
02:36:51,708 --> 02:36:53,708
this is still the dream because I don't know how

2555
02:36:53,708 --> 02:36:56,068
I don't

2556
02:36:56,068 --> 02:37:01,708
don't dip my toes into that world anymore but what would be to finish it get it in some festivals and

2557
02:37:01,708 --> 02:37:08,548
get it liked in a well-known festival and then sell it i mean yeah that's the goal but is that

2558
02:37:08,548 --> 02:37:14,248
still what people do i mean like i just you know like i was a couple of days ago i was listening

2559
02:37:14,248 --> 02:37:19,028
to the radio in the car and they said oh who's presenting at the oscars this year and i was

2560
02:37:19,028 --> 02:37:25,448
thinking oh my god do people still do that do people still go to the oscars just be like and

2561
02:37:25,448 --> 02:37:32,568
i know that's me that's me dropping out of society in a way and mixing with you know other you know

2562
02:37:32,568 --> 02:37:39,408
other sections of society but i find all that stuff really kind of old school now you know

2563
02:37:39,408 --> 02:37:46,088
and and dying and and old-fashioned and you know i don't know i mean you can easily see something

2564
02:37:46,088 --> 02:37:51,088
like this as a netflix doc but do you want it to be just another one when you click docs on the

2565
02:37:51,088 --> 02:37:55,148
netflix and like oh there's this one and this one and this because there's some great documentaries

2566
02:37:55,148 --> 02:38:02,148
on there yeah yeah there really are but but i find the world of filmmaking that i come from from a long

2567
02:38:02,148 --> 02:38:10,388
time ago there was far more i don't know i i felt it was more inspirational than we find now that

2568
02:38:10,388 --> 02:38:16,708
there is so much stuff there are people putting out documentaries on youtube that are pretty good

2569
02:38:16,708 --> 02:38:22,728
and fun and low budget but but really intrigue intriguing you know i don't know where i'd position

2570
02:38:22,728 --> 02:38:27,068
myself anymore that's where it got out i think yeah i don't like that world you know i suppose

2571
02:38:27,068 --> 02:38:32,928
for me like the let's say the film's a total flop no one watches it whatever um like i would consider

2572
02:38:32,928 --> 02:38:37,188
that a great success like the places that i've been and the people that i've met and for me the

2573
02:38:37,188 --> 02:38:43,028
reason to make the film is because it's very enjoyable making it of course if it's also i

2574
02:38:43,028 --> 02:38:46,108
hope of course it's a success because you know there's lots of other films i want to make after

2575
02:38:46,108 --> 02:38:50,808
this one and the better this one is like the easier the next ones will be but it's a bit like

2576
02:38:50,808 --> 02:38:56,568
with Joe's book, for example. You know, I read Joe's book, and then this whole thing happened

2577
02:38:56,568 --> 02:39:01,148
in my life. You know, Rudy, the main engineer behind Ocean Builders, at least Joe told me that

2578
02:39:01,148 --> 02:39:05,628
Rudy says that, you know, he read Joe's book, you know, twice straight away. He keeps a physical

2579
02:39:05,628 --> 02:39:11,088
copy and a copy on his phone at all times. And the idea is with Joe, he writes this book, and then

2580
02:39:11,088 --> 02:39:15,808
a couple of people take action. And then that then actually moves forward the frontier in some way.

2581
02:39:16,148 --> 02:39:20,388
And I hope the same thing with this film. Like, it's this energetic thing where a couple of people

2582
02:39:20,388 --> 02:39:24,468
might see it and then actually maybe lift the bronze head up from the depths and make a floating

2583
02:39:24,468 --> 02:39:30,368
city or maybe do something else but for me it's like i'm not not sure what to uh sort of coin this

2584
02:39:30,368 --> 02:39:34,528
maybe it's maybe this is how you describe it i i'm trying to think of a good name for it but maybe

2585
02:39:34,528 --> 02:39:41,648
it's like uh the uh the aristocratic principle of content creation which is basically that you make

2586
02:39:41,648 --> 02:39:46,188
a film not for everyone you only make it for a couple of people even like a couple of individuals

2587
02:39:46,188 --> 02:39:48,208
but in order to reach those individuals

2588
02:39:48,208 --> 02:39:49,548
it has to be very good

2589
02:39:49,548 --> 02:39:51,128
and a lot of people have to see it

2590
02:39:51,128 --> 02:39:52,168
so it's this thing

2591
02:39:52,168 --> 02:39:53,328
if it wants to be very entertaining

2592
02:39:53,328 --> 02:39:54,808
in and of its own right

2593
02:39:54,808 --> 02:39:56,828
but really you make it just for a couple of people

2594
02:39:56,828 --> 02:39:58,728
like really Joe in some sense

2595
02:39:58,728 --> 02:40:00,208
wrote that book for Rudy

2596
02:40:00,208 --> 02:40:01,348
like Joe in his interviews

2597
02:40:01,348 --> 02:40:01,848
he said you know

2598
02:40:01,848 --> 02:40:02,588
when I wrote this book

2599
02:40:02,588 --> 02:40:04,508
I dreamed that a marine engineer

2600
02:40:04,508 --> 02:40:05,208
would come along

2601
02:40:05,208 --> 02:40:07,188
and make all my dreams come true

2602
02:40:07,188 --> 02:40:08,228
and he says something like

2603
02:40:08,228 --> 02:40:10,588
God and his infinite sense of humour

2604
02:40:10,588 --> 02:40:12,048
gave me Rudiger Cock

2605
02:40:12,048 --> 02:40:12,888
and in some sense

2606
02:40:12,888 --> 02:40:13,408
you know Joe

2607
02:40:13,408 --> 02:40:15,068
the book was very popular

2608
02:40:15,068 --> 02:40:15,988
lots of people read it

2609
02:40:15,988 --> 02:40:20,148
great reviews and all the rest of it but the reason to write it was that Rudy made Ocean Builders

2610
02:40:20,148 --> 02:40:23,828
that was really the reason it doesn't really matter if a million people read your book

2611
02:40:23,828 --> 02:40:29,048
because ultimately oh they read a good book they move on to something else but if like if your

2612
02:40:29,048 --> 02:40:33,468
writings or the things that you create actually inspire a city state like perhaps that could

2613
02:40:33,468 --> 02:40:38,608
happen with this podcast maybe that is like that to me would be the ultimate goal if I was running

2614
02:40:38,608 --> 02:40:44,348
this podcast at least of like what it could turn into it's it's entertainment but it also means

2615
02:40:44,348 --> 02:40:49,668
something wider than itself. It has this ability to actually affect the course of civilization in

2616
02:40:49,668 --> 02:40:55,408
some way. Like for example, you know, with ocean builders, they're hoping to help with oxygon,

2617
02:40:55,508 --> 02:40:59,148
which is this floating city in Saudi Arabia, where they're building this industrial city where like

2618
02:40:59,148 --> 02:41:03,708
half of it is on land, and half of it is in the ocean. And ocean builders are hoping that, you

2619
02:41:03,708 --> 02:41:07,108
know, they might be able to help out with the construction of this. And you think of, well,

2620
02:41:07,248 --> 02:41:11,648
Joe's book then could have led and or helped developed oxygon in Saudi Arabia, and who knows

2621
02:41:11,648 --> 02:41:14,188
what that will go on to do.

2622
02:41:14,188 --> 02:41:26,912
So it this idea of ideas living independent of us and we are just vessels to help propagate them And someone like joe has ultimately spread these ideas to people that have the energy to actually you know develop them so

2623
02:41:26,912 --> 02:41:33,312
no i i would agree with that actually i it's nicely articulated i've never thought of it

2624
02:41:33,312 --> 02:41:40,312
necessarily like that but i'd i've i mean the in the the reason to even talking about this podcast

2625
02:41:40,312 --> 02:41:45,972
the reason to do this was never to make a lot of money i don't think i've ever been driven by money

2626
02:41:45,972 --> 02:41:48,212
I've been driven by a couple of things.

2627
02:41:48,312 --> 02:41:52,272
One is that the enjoyment of the process, like you said,

2628
02:41:52,512 --> 02:41:56,652
and the other is that I know something that I think is beneficial

2629
02:41:56,652 --> 02:41:58,152
and I want other people to know about it.

2630
02:41:58,552 --> 02:42:01,212
And that drives, that's a very strong driving force.

2631
02:42:01,832 --> 02:42:08,012
But it's true that there is obviously an unfortunate tension

2632
02:42:08,012 --> 02:42:13,072
between that idea and making a living though, which is annoying.

2633
02:42:13,072 --> 02:42:25,692
And I know Joe has it, obviously, because Joe would love a million dollars to get the sort of like, to be able to ensure seasteads, you know, what's the called, not the flagging system.

2634
02:42:25,872 --> 02:42:27,512
He wants to create a flagging registry.

2635
02:42:27,732 --> 02:42:28,992
No, he wants to create a registry.

2636
02:42:29,112 --> 02:42:29,912
Yeah, yeah, basically.

2637
02:42:30,172 --> 02:42:31,632
And that's going to cost a lot of money.

2638
02:42:32,352 --> 02:42:33,192
But you're right.

2639
02:42:33,252 --> 02:42:42,072
Maybe someone listens to this and goes, you know, it's a very, it's a funny thing because it's a very small world, the world of seasteading.

2640
02:42:42,072 --> 02:42:47,572
cesteading and and the government the world of living together the world of people experimenting

2641
02:42:47,572 --> 02:42:53,712
with governance as well is a very small world i know that now because i i've i've realized what

2642
02:42:53,712 --> 02:43:00,032
it is i came into this world from a very specific place which was you know free private cities

2643
02:43:00,032 --> 02:43:06,612
really titus gables ideas about you know that was what and i and having been here for a few years

2644
02:43:06,612 --> 02:43:14,252
now i realized that the fun thing to think about is governance which it just seems like such an

2645
02:43:14,252 --> 02:43:19,752
unsexy idea when you're when you you know when you don't know anything about it but when you

2646
02:43:19,752 --> 02:43:27,052
start thinking about it humans amassing together and living together is really fascinating and how

2647
02:43:27,052 --> 02:43:32,712
to do it well is something that most people just don't think about and especially people you know

2648
02:43:32,712 --> 02:43:39,532
in the West in general, they just think, okay, we've got a system and it works and this is how we do.

2649
02:43:40,012 --> 02:43:52,072
And often, many times they're living quiet desperation in their life, living in it and not realizing that they could possibly even think of an alternative.

2650
02:43:53,032 --> 02:43:55,912
You know, so yeah, I'm with you on that one.

2651
02:43:55,912 --> 02:44:01,772
And I think I might commit that one to my lexicon and to my memory.

2652
02:44:02,072 --> 02:44:06,652
That, yeah, yeah, maybe the whole point of a 10-year period of your life

2653
02:44:06,652 --> 02:44:09,552
was just to trigger one or two people.

2654
02:44:10,052 --> 02:44:13,792
Of course, even one person, that's actually much more than you can expect in some sense.

2655
02:44:14,052 --> 02:44:16,972
If someone actually acts on it, then it's totally worth it.

2656
02:44:17,252 --> 02:44:18,652
Yeah, I think you're right.

2657
02:44:18,872 --> 02:44:23,932
But yeah, I feel like really governance is perhaps the most important thing of all

2658
02:44:23,932 --> 02:44:26,992
because it is how humans interface with each other.

2659
02:44:27,292 --> 02:44:28,892
And you think of like throughout human history,

2660
02:44:28,912 --> 02:44:29,632
or even right now,

2661
02:44:29,952 --> 02:44:32,572
so many people are like so like badly placed.

2662
02:44:32,572 --> 02:44:34,192
Like they haven't met the right people.

2663
02:44:34,432 --> 02:44:35,812
They weren't able to do like,

2664
02:44:36,132 --> 02:44:37,872
like unlock their potential.

2665
02:44:38,292 --> 02:44:39,832
And cities can at their peak,

2666
02:44:40,152 --> 02:44:42,472
totally unlock what humanity is capable of.

2667
02:44:42,852 --> 02:44:44,452
There is a big part of genius is,

2668
02:44:44,932 --> 02:44:46,572
you know, interacting with so many different people

2669
02:44:46,572 --> 02:44:48,332
and this like mixing of ideas

2670
02:44:48,332 --> 02:44:49,232
and like in the Renaissance,

2671
02:44:49,472 --> 02:44:50,492
or even like, for example,

2672
02:44:50,612 --> 02:44:51,612
I think in Athens,

2673
02:44:51,612 --> 02:44:55,592
the largest population that Athens ever got

2674
02:44:55,592 --> 02:44:57,412
I think was 400,000 people

2675
02:44:57,412 --> 02:45:00,752
and you think of like the output of 400,000 people

2676
02:45:00,752 --> 02:45:03,452
has been such that like we continue to study

2677
02:45:03,452 --> 02:45:04,732
all their philosophers to this day

2678
02:45:04,732 --> 02:45:06,952
like you don't actually need a great amount of people

2679
02:45:06,952 --> 02:45:10,132
but with the right people and like interacting in the right way

2680
02:45:10,132 --> 02:45:13,072
it can inspire humanity for millennia to come

2681
02:45:13,072 --> 02:45:16,612
so really creating that is perhaps the most important thing

2682
02:45:16,612 --> 02:45:19,432
Yeah, Joe's a big advocate of that

2683
02:45:19,432 --> 02:45:27,452
Joe really does believe that by creating free places on the frontier, that's what you're doing.

2684
02:45:27,772 --> 02:45:35,832
You're bringing human potential together because by its nature, seekers of the frontier are out there people on the whole.

2685
02:45:36,452 --> 02:45:43,872
And when you put them all together, it's quite chaotic, but you basically unlock more potential than you could ever do.

2686
02:45:43,872 --> 02:45:45,712
I feel like the internet did that as well.

2687
02:45:45,712 --> 02:45:49,712
I really do feel like the internet has kickstarted that.

2688
02:45:50,452 --> 02:45:53,912
I mean, almost everyone I know now and who I interact with,

2689
02:45:54,212 --> 02:45:56,332
I met through the internet, you know.

2690
02:45:56,412 --> 02:46:00,452
And, you know, it's very much part of the idea structure

2691
02:46:00,452 --> 02:46:04,312
of, you know, future places.

2692
02:46:04,672 --> 02:46:09,652
And it is, you know, using networks to bring people together.

2693
02:46:10,652 --> 02:46:13,992
I think, you know, we have, in our world,

2694
02:46:13,992 --> 02:46:20,772
we have two very much two sides that one who's very network focused and one who's very sort of

2695
02:46:20,772 --> 02:46:27,152
physical world focused and i i think where we sit and where most people should start moving towards

2696
02:46:27,152 --> 02:46:31,752
is that place in the middle because i think they're really both part of it you know they

2697
02:46:31,752 --> 02:46:37,912
really are but we do need the physical places and who knows yeah i mean i i think i would say

2698
02:46:37,912 --> 02:46:45,292
almost certainly there will be a floating city inside Amala at some point in

2699
02:46:45,292 --> 02:46:49,492
history because of what we know and because of the fact that meme exists and

2700
02:46:49,492 --> 02:46:56,032
that floating cities will exist therefore eventually they'll look for a

2701
02:46:56,032 --> 02:47:08,456
frontier like side of Mala why don they so so I would say you know whether or not people will use your head as a dive site or whether they raise it up who knows

2702
02:47:08,536 --> 02:47:09,516
It doesn't matter, really.

2703
02:47:09,516 --> 02:47:10,756
It's not for us to decide ultimately.

2704
02:47:10,776 --> 02:47:11,136
Yeah, yeah.

2705
02:47:11,276 --> 02:47:13,756
But like you say, for all you know,

2706
02:47:13,756 --> 02:47:20,376
you'll be creating such a strong,

2707
02:47:20,556 --> 02:47:21,816
it'd be like a ceremony

2708
02:47:21,816 --> 02:47:26,116
with deep kind of spiritual connotations

2709
02:47:26,116 --> 02:47:27,736
that you'll never know about,

2710
02:47:28,036 --> 02:47:28,916
that there'll be ripples

2711
02:47:28,916 --> 02:47:31,456
that sort of like flow through reality

2712
02:47:31,456 --> 02:47:32,856
that, you know,

2713
02:47:33,796 --> 02:47:36,296
might have an effect that you can't see.

2714
02:47:36,376 --> 02:47:36,736
Who knows?

2715
02:47:37,336 --> 02:47:39,896
But yeah, great story, mate.

2716
02:47:39,976 --> 02:47:40,616
Great story.

2717
02:47:40,856 --> 02:47:41,936
Yeah, it says in the Bhagavad Gita,

2718
02:47:42,076 --> 02:47:43,476
you're entitled to your actions,

2719
02:47:43,916 --> 02:47:44,876
never to its fruits.

2720
02:47:45,676 --> 02:47:46,756
All you can do is act.

2721
02:47:47,096 --> 02:47:47,336
Yes.

2722
02:47:48,676 --> 02:47:49,176
Yeah, so,

2723
02:47:50,036 --> 02:47:51,436
but how you get from that

2724
02:47:51,436 --> 02:47:52,976
to let's stick a massive,

2725
02:47:53,396 --> 02:47:56,096
let's stick a massive iron

2726
02:47:56,096 --> 02:47:59,116
a bronze head in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

2727
02:47:59,576 --> 02:48:00,336
I don't know.

2728
02:48:01,076 --> 02:48:02,616
That's the seasteading world, mate.

2729
02:48:02,796 --> 02:48:04,156
That is the seasteading world.

2730
02:48:04,316 --> 02:48:06,336
It's full of crazy people on the edges.

2731
02:48:06,996 --> 02:48:08,776
Anyway, look, it's great to meet you.

2732
02:48:10,336 --> 02:48:12,196
Thanks for inviting me down here.

2733
02:48:13,316 --> 02:48:14,436
It's a great story.

2734
02:48:14,976 --> 02:48:17,636
It's now, yeah, I can't believe Joe's never mentioned.

2735
02:48:17,636 --> 02:48:21,156
He probably has mentioned his, you know, Landy to me before.

2736
02:48:21,316 --> 02:48:22,696
I just probably didn't commit it to memory.

2737
02:48:22,696 --> 02:48:28,416
but um also what's exciting about landy is that you know of course there are these big publications

2738
02:48:28,416 --> 02:48:32,456
that have sort of start to be interested in his story but he's still basically unknown even in the

2739
02:48:32,456 --> 02:48:38,616
seasteading city-states micronations world he's basically unknown but i hope that soon it's like

2740
02:48:38,616 --> 02:48:43,816
a there's this uh philosopher really like called uh thomas carlisle he says uh if a man was great

2741
02:48:43,816 --> 02:48:49,236
while living he becomes 10 times greater when dead right so i hope that's what that's what i

2742
02:48:49,236 --> 02:48:50,396
you seek to do with Landy.

2743
02:48:51,136 --> 02:48:51,576
Okay.

2744
02:48:52,376 --> 02:48:53,776
Is there a time scale

2745
02:48:53,776 --> 02:48:54,876
on when people

2746
02:48:54,876 --> 02:48:55,976
might be able to see the film?

2747
02:48:56,416 --> 02:48:57,196
Well, I mean, there is.

2748
02:48:57,336 --> 02:48:58,316
I do have a website,

2749
02:48:58,716 --> 02:48:59,976
thelegendoflandy.com

2750
02:48:59,976 --> 02:49:01,636
and people can see

2751
02:49:01,636 --> 02:49:02,516
some segments

2752
02:49:02,516 --> 02:49:03,416
from the film on there.

2753
02:49:04,796 --> 02:49:05,556
Yeah, if anyone wants

2754
02:49:05,556 --> 02:49:06,956
to invest in the film

2755
02:49:06,956 --> 02:49:07,816
or be a part of it

2756
02:49:07,816 --> 02:49:08,836
and help move it forwards,

2757
02:49:09,876 --> 02:49:10,876
you know, that's...

2758
02:49:10,876 --> 02:49:11,596
Are you...

2759
02:49:11,596 --> 02:49:12,236
I mean, have you got

2760
02:49:12,236 --> 02:49:13,336
enough money to finish it

2761
02:49:13,336 --> 02:49:14,156
or do you need

2762
02:49:14,156 --> 02:49:16,596
more rounds of, you know...

2763
02:49:16,596 --> 02:49:17,596
Well, I think that

2764
02:49:17,596 --> 02:49:18,896
it seems like with the film,

2765
02:49:18,896 --> 02:49:22,456
obviously there's always more money that you want to raise and you never quite get the amount

2766
02:49:22,456 --> 02:49:28,716
that you want but so far I've always been able to get enough to keep moving and it seems like really

2767
02:49:28,716 --> 02:49:33,036
and especially with the head for example you tell this to people and their eyes glaze over and they

2768
02:49:33,036 --> 02:49:38,256
think this guy's an idiot but I'm like and now I have it you know I have well I have the prototype

2769
02:49:38,256 --> 02:49:42,416
I have the real thing they're going to be casting it in a couple of weeks and people will realize

2770
02:49:42,416 --> 02:49:47,676
all of a sudden this guy's actually serious like this is not a joke this is actually it is happening

2771
02:49:47,676 --> 02:49:56,376
right so so all right legends of landy.com that's the place to go oswald thanks thanks a lot um i'm

2772
02:49:56,376 --> 02:50:02,856
gonna fuck yeah i follow with a great interest now and um i like i say i i'm a massive seasteading

2773
02:50:02,856 --> 02:50:11,396
convert this is just another arrow in the quiver of or uh you know of of the stories around it and

2774
02:50:11,396 --> 02:50:16,756
i think joe would as joe would say himself it's like the narratives the stories in ste ste ste

2775
02:50:16,756 --> 02:50:23,096
seasteading are some of the most important parts of it because they are what inspire people on the

2776
02:50:23,096 --> 02:50:29,096
frontier they've got very little concrete not literally but they've got very little

2777
02:50:29,096 --> 02:50:36,416
concrete evidence to say you know this is what we want seasteading to be because it's a very

2778
02:50:36,416 --> 02:50:43,036
crazy thought i know you know cruise ships are a really good way to explain it but i think what

2779
02:50:43,036 --> 02:50:49,616
me personally what i imagine are lit are floating cities and and they don't look like cruise ships

2780
02:50:49,616 --> 02:50:54,916
they they they might model their governance on a cruise ship but they're they're a lot they're

2781
02:50:54,916 --> 02:51:02,416
very different to that they're very futuristic incredible amazing places um and and they will

2782
02:51:02,416 --> 02:51:08,656
exist 100 i and i think you'll probably be part of that story hopefully so thanks thanks for having

2783
02:51:08,656 --> 02:51:13,836
me and yeah let's let's maybe years time or certainly when the film comes out let's let's

2784
02:51:13,836 --> 02:51:22,456
do another one absolutely i look forward to it all right you made it to the end of the show so

2785
02:51:22,456 --> 02:51:27,896
i'm just going to go ahead and assume that you got some value out of this episode if you want

2786
02:51:27,896 --> 02:51:34,716
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2787
02:51:34,716 --> 02:51:42,536
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2788
02:51:42,536 --> 02:51:52,216
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2789
02:51:52,216 --> 02:51:58,476
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2790
02:51:58,476 --> 02:52:04,596
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2791
02:52:04,596 --> 02:52:11,376
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2792
02:52:11,376 --> 02:52:18,556
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2793
02:52:18,956 --> 02:52:24,716
And one more thing. If you know someone who'd love this episode, share it directly with them.

2794
02:52:24,716 --> 02:52:31,136
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2795
02:52:31,136 --> 02:52:34,356
newsletter are in the show notes. See you next week.

2796
02:52:34,596 --> 02:52:35,376
Thank you.