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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast

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of the Free Cities Foundation.

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Hello and welcome to this episode number 156 of the Free Cities podcast.

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Really? 156? That is amazing. I love doing this.

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Anyway, welcome to the show. I'm very happy to have you here today.

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Lots of exciting things going on currently in the Free Cities space.

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Can you feel it? I can.

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I'm so bullish, very bullish on freedom lovers.

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I know it's easy to look around you and think that maybe the authoritarians and the control freaks and the sociopaths are closing in quite fast.

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Well, in many ways, that yes is true.

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But you also know what that means.

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It means people like you and people like me start pushing back more.

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We start building alternatives to their spiteful structures.

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we start spreading our ideas of human freedom a little bit louder and we start incentivizing good

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governance by voting with our money and by voting with our feet and we take more time to understand

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ourselves and challenge the preconceptions we hold inside our own minds and bodies and yes

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we may never be a majority in this world but i don't think that matters freedom lovers will

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always find each other and we will always work together. The genie will always be out of the

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bottle somewhere in the world and who knows one day it might become the norm around the globe.

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Non-aggression, voluntarism, freedom of expression, freedom in markets, maybe who knows. In the meantime

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I think you know which team you're on, so do I, so let's continue playing hard as a team,

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working for a better future for our families and for ourselves and that is the end of my little

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mini rant in today's show i'm speaking to some free city builders i think you'll know patrick

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hibbert if you came to the conference in prague two weeks ago he was very much in demand from what

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i saw of him i kept trying to have a chat and people kept grabbing him and wanting to talk

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fortunately for me I got to sit down with him privately you'll certainly know his company

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Veritas Villages if you listen to this podcast regularly they were my first private sector

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sponsor for which I'm very grateful of course they are still my primary sponsor and this is

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because Veritas Villages have pretty much a perfect product fit with the Free Cities podcast

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just in case you don't know who they are they're building bottom-up freedom-oriented communities in

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central america places designed for people like you and me to hopefully allow us to plan for the

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long term in these tumultuous times they're also actively meeting with governments to try and evolve

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the governance possibilities in the communities i'd say they're one of the most active projects

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at the intentional community's end of the free city spectrum.

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Now, I've watched the company grow since I've known Patrick

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and evolve into a company primarily serving libertarians loosely and freedom lovers.

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Patrick's also an old Bitcoiner,

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and as such, he's been integrating Bitcoin into his business longer than most,

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mining on site, using free energy from solar,

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having BTC as legal tender in villages,

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and allowing purchases of land and property at their sites with Bitcoin.

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And that's part of the reason why I sat down with him.

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Today's show is a double guest show.

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I also have Alex Voss in the room.

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Now, Alex is someone you may know from his work at Tipolis,

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which is Titus Gables' company building free cities.

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He's definitely an OG free city builder, one of the oldest.

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also the author of the book Strategies for Liberty, Free Cities and Bitcoin.

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Now the two of them are coming together in Patrick's latest endeavour to integrate Bitcoin further into his business.

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And this episode is an update on this and all the latest news hot off the presses from their projects in Central America.

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To be honest, it does what it says on the tin, really.

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But just in case, here is Fountain's AI key topics summary to give you an idea of what is in the show.

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Key topics.

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Veritas Villages expansions.

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A Bitcoin treasury strategy.

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New corporate governance.

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Sovereignty and independence in Latin America.

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Quadratic voting on a Bitcoin side chain.

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That's for the homeowners associations.

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And the future of Altris as a Bitcoin Citadel company.

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Now, Altris is the parent company.

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That's Patrick's company that owns the brand of Veritas Villages.

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Now, it's worth mentioning the fact that I coined that moniker, Bitcoin Citadel company, to describe Veritas Villages.

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That was me, not them.

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We were talking about them being a Bitcoin treasury company, which is not correct because they have Bitcoin in a treasury.

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And they have a business.

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I think Bitcoin treasury companies are companies that just have a business of buying Bitcoin.

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My conclusion is that they're actually a Bitcoin Citadel company.

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Maybe the first that I've actually observed out there in the wild.

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They're actually building freedom-oriented places which incorporate Bitcoin at pretty much every level and by any means possible.

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They're always looking for ways to do it.

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Anyway, you can listen to them speak yourself, of course, and decide if you agree with me.

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There's lots of very up to date info here and some ideas for integrating Bitcoin into your own free city projects.

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If you want to know more about them, of course, I have a link.

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Veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities.

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You can buy places there.

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You can buy plots of land.

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You can build in their communities and you can do it all with Bitcoin.

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as i'm always saying quick reminder before we crack on to the show the free cities conference

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next year is yes it's in prospera lfg come on and we are limited in numbers compared to prague

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you saw how busy prague was this year so my advice would probably be to try and secure

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a ticket for 2026 as soon as you can so as not to be disappointed i know that's difficult to book

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things like that this far in advance but you know what you don't want to miss the opportunity to be

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able to tell your grandkids that you were one of the pioneers who spent time in a free city before

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it was cool i know you do free cities conference.com and actually there's a ticket discount

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right now too i'm losing my voice aren't i i can hear it anyway i'm gonna go now thanks to my

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wonderful fountain sponsors you know you are you're my ogs thank you for your continued support

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and please actually can i ask everyone else who listens on non-value for value platforms

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please can you review the show on your platform especially apple podcasts for some reason not

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many people make the effort there to review the show even though i can see that there are lots of subs on the platform Anyway greatly appreciated from you all It apparently helps the show become more invisible

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and we're trying to push the message out there as best we can.

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Right. Let's jump into the show, as podcasters say.

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I don't usually say that, do I? Let's jump into the show.

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Why don't you grab a margarita this time and pull up your deck chair?

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We're off to Central America to live free.

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As you sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Patrick Hibbert and Alex Voss.

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why don't we start with i've literally got absolutely no objective here except

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Veritas Villages and what your what the new all the new stuff that's going on

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so maybe we should start there from the latest I mean obviously I know quite a bit about Veritas

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Villages because I'm following you're sponsoring us you're you know you're one of our sponsors

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which is great but there's also a hell of a lot I don't know and you you made an announcement at

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this conference already which i did see maybe you could just quickly briefly from the veritas

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village side just briefly run over that but start with what's going on at veritas villages

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all right well can you hear me okay i can hear you absolutely fine patrick perfect

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well thanks tim for having us on the show it's nice to be back pretty much exactly a year later

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i guess it is actually yeah it was a good and to be honest a massive amount has changed yeah yeah

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I do actually remember you saying, actually, when we spoke before that there were some things in the pipeline and stuff.

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Yeah, there's been lots of things in the pipeline.

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We acquired a property in Nicaragua that we had designed it and we're developing it anyway with a joint venture.

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But we've decided not to do joint ventures anymore.

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Veritas Villages are 100% ours.

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So we bought out the partner.

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And now it's Veritas Village Playa Pacifica on the beach in Nicaragua.

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We're continuing to build homes in Veritas Village Coronado in Panama.

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We announced Veritas Village Chiriqui, which is also in Panama, closer to the Costa Rican

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border.

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A lot of people know where Boquete is.

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It's a pretty popular tourist area or expat living area in Panama, so it's close to that.

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And then we just acquired a massive property, massive for our standards in Costa Rica in

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the Atenas area and it's got the unique claim to fame of being named the best climate in the world

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by National Geographic. We actually have three different climate zones inside our property so

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it's based on elevation so you can actually kind of choose your climate in that particular one so

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it's very cool. Wait a minute, how big do you have to be to have three climates? Well it's a unique

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spot so it's 140 some hectares 340 acres or so probably be over 500 residences and it's on an

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elevation going you know from top to bottom around 800 to 900 meters in the top and four or five

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hundred at the bottom so that just happens to create temperate zones and different types of

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zones so literally the temperature you can kind of pick if you like it to be 28 degrees and during

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the day and 22 at night you can get maybe in the middle if you want it to be a little cooler you go

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the top you want to have a home at the bottom it's going to be more tropical so it's kind of got a

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lot of unique features and then uh that you know we're just in the permitting stage they're really

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hoping that maybe by august of next year we'll have the permitting all done and the master planning

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all done and that will start building homes there too um but that's that's going to be a game changer

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for us that just based on the size and and of course we're we're looking in argentina right now

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Argentina, Mexico, and Ecuador, and possibly Belize as well.

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So we're kind of looking around, and we will be expanding more and more.

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The nice thing about the Veritas Village is I think it kind of differentiates itself

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from a lot of the freedom-oriented communities,

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is that when you have more than one, it's kind of like a points club or whatever.

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You can go to any one of them as a member of the Veritas Village Club,

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and you get the you know discounts at the restaurants and you can use the amenities

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and all those sorts of things so it it's you know it's not just like oh i lock myself into this and

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we actually have clients that are building or buying homes in in more than one so they can say

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i'm going to spend this part of the year in this one because i like the climate there during that

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time and i'm going to move to this one so you could be in the hills of panama to the beach of

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nicaragua and ultimately you know the caribbean as well and and so it gives people options i've

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been doing this for two decades and it's tough if you only have one place you're trying to pigeonhole

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them into something all the time and it's like well i don't want that and it's like i don't want

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to be selling something to somebody that they don't want so so 140 acres that is 140 hectares

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sorry 140 hectares yes even more that is um like a well that's a very large area

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obviously that's the biggest opportunity you've ever taken on yeah it's the it was i mean it was

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the i've been looking at in costa rica for four years for a property i've probably seen over

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maybe over 100 properties and then this one came up and it was just checks all the boxes and it

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had so much going for it it's in exactly the area we wanted it and it was the large the last large

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track to land in the antennas area and uh we were just pretty lucky to get it to be honest so what

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was it before then a farm a farm yeah one farm yeah what kind of stuff cattle mostly really so

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i was just thinking it was covered in trees well half of it is a coffee plantation too so that's

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kind of cool because we're going to have a i mean every one of our communities has a little bit of

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a theme so that one's kind of coffee themed where you you know we're going to have veritas village

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coffee you know client the residents can give them bags away to their friends and things like

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that so you what you're going to keep some of the coffee plantation going yeah um we have to keep a

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certain amount of green area anyway so that actually counts so there's certain there's

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certain trees you can't cut down the certain species of trees and and we also want to have

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a large percentage of green space and hiking and there's beautiful waterfalls and rivers on the

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property it's it's spectacular i mean it's it's really beautiful what's the time scale on that one

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uh like i said we we acquired it this last summer and um permitting can take a year to 18 months so

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So, you know, Costa Rica really considers themselves a very green country, probably more than any other country in the world.

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And so the environmental and climate change permitting and all that is a draining process.

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We have to write about an 800-900 page application.

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So it's a lot of work.

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But we've got, you know, all the people that we've talked to are very bullish about us getting maybe next, like, August, September time frame.

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so they knew exactly what the plan was right from the start i mean but the beauty of it too

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for a change for us is it's actually already registered as an urban area because of tennis

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the town which is a really quaint um you know a little latin american town that's you know the

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typical ones with a you know cathedral on one side and a park on the other the same design that

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they all have but it's very it's very much more authentic it's not been like the costa rican beach

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towns that are sort of gringo towns at this point right so the nice thing too it's half an hour to

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the beach it's half an hour to the airport in san jose and it still feels extremely isolated

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so with that much land though are you alex i'll be coming to you soon mate don't worry

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thanks for coming out moral support um with that much land are you thinking about creating quite a

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lot of amenities on there yeah exactly we have um a lot of things are already going obviously you know the restaurants and and it has a nice little mini lake pond on it So that will become a tilapia pond where we going to put a dock out into it where you can go fishing and things like that

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And the natural amenities are amazing.

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Like I said, the waterfalls and we're going to have one of the restaurants right beside the waterfalls.

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So, you know, I can picture, you know, people getting married there and stuff like that.

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What about things like stuff that you get on a slightly grander scale, like medical facilities and all that kind of stuff?

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even in the smaller one than Coronado,

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we're going to have a small clinic school.

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McKell's expat money school is going to have its first physical school there.

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The rest of it has been online.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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The expat money school,

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but not for kids,

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right?

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For grownups.

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No,

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it's for kids.

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Is it?

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Yeah.

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We're trying to get to kids early.

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Teaching them about,

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get rid of the woke part and get them back into libertarians.

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Right.

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That's it.

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So,

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all right.

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Like I say,

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Alex,

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we'll be coming to you,

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but can you give me an overview of each place,

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like Coronado, Cherokee, you know, this at Tennis,

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and the Playa Pacifica, and what it actually is like there now,

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and like how many buildings are there, what's there, this kind of stuff.

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Because they're all different environments.

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You've got seas, mountains, kind of, you know.

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So Playa Pacifica, Veritas Village Playa Pacifica is in Nicaragua.

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It's the closest beachfront area to the Managua Airport,

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so it's 45 minutes to get there um it's to me it's one of the most beautiful beachfronts in the

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world it's just like and and not very many people on the beach so you know it's a beautiful surfing

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there's different kinds of surfing there's a reef break there's a sand break so if you're into surfing

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it's easy right to the most challenging kind of surf you can have and so uh we're actually a

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a neighborhood inside a larger resort and so we we have all the things that we have in a typical

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Veritas Village we have a separate orchard and garden for sustainability but the beauty of that

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is you also have you know restaurants and hiking trails and a golf course and all that stuff is

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part of that that is accessible by everybody that's a Veritas Village resident and so and you know it's

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it's a beautiful beachfront so you know for swimming and kayaking there's a river that runs

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through it as well and so that's a really pretty beachfront it's a little bit harder to grow things

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on the beach to you know to be sustainable so the the gardens are further back but they're still

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within within the greater property which is nice and how many places to live are there on there

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um on the overall property now there's probably 400 ish homes on you on on ours our community is

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just starting up so it's a dozen 15 maybe but over you know it feels like one big community right

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and that was that community started before the veritas village idea sort of evolved fully right

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yeah exactly we kind of made it into a veritas village by adding you know our first philosophy

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the f-i-r-s-t the freedom independence resilience sustainability and transparency

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we you know that we're that's the pillars of our focus now so when i look at sustainability and it's

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a beachfront and it's like well we have to create orchards and gardens and stables and things like

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of livestock and so that we had to push back a bit because it's hard to grow bananas and mangoes

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and things right in the sand on the beach so but uh now it's a you know absolutely normal type of

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veritas village so that's the beach for one that's but does it one more question sorry does it have a

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are you does it have a kind of barrier around the veritas village bit the barrier is really the

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river so the river is the border on on both sides it kind of the river comes towards if you're at

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the beach and the river comes towards the beach and then splits and it it's actually the overall

242
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property is 2400 acres so it's um like really eight nine hundred hectares and you're planning

243
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on putting how many more places about 60 more homes on on our part of it so in the veritas part

244
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of it so and how much of that is still for can people still invest in now like i said there's a

245
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there's about a dozen or a little bit more than a dozen homes are now we built a few uh model homes

246
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there too so that you can actually buy one today and move in tomorrow if you wanted to all right

247
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okay so yeah and then uh if we move over to uh chirokee chirokee is a bit of a smaller one

248
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the chirokee is the name of the the province of in panama then it's a very very popular expat spot

249
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people go to boquete and caldera and chirokee area um the volcanoes there so they can get higher in

250
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the mountains and you get for me it's the the really high boquete is quite high up in elevation

251
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it rains a little bit too much for me and it's a little too cold i came from vancouver island in

252
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canada i didn't move to the tropics to be rainy and cold so we purposely are in bugaba which is a

253
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town just outside of town on a lower elevation about 300 meters instead of 900 meters we don't

254
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get the rain we're close to the beach you know we're kind of half an hour drive to boquete a

255
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half an hour drive to the beach so it's in the best of both worlds and boquete's got a lot of

256
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little cool shops and things like that just because it's been an expat center forever

257
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and that's a smaller one um total of maybe 30 or 40 homes on it but it had

258
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what there's some things that one's got a beautiful river that runs through it as well

259
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and what i really like about it is we designed um the community orchards and gardens to be like a

260
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like a shop like a grocery store it's got aisles and and we trained all the plants to grow up the

261
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sides and you literally walk down the aisle and you know pick your oranges and your bananas but

262
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that's already there or this is a good chunk of it is already existing we keep planting more but

263
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people always ask me so when is this one going to be done it's like when is a town done like i mean

264
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when's the city done so how many houses are there at chirickey then like i said there's only about

265
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25 now or something like that or less but um you know we have an option to acquire the space beside

266
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it too so depending on how popular that one becomes we'll probably expand it and then there's

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the one that in Coronado in Panama that's about an hour drive out of the city one of my favorite

268
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areas there we're again up in the hills there's a Anton Valley which is a very popular destination

269
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in Panama, we're just beside that. So we get the, it's in what they call the dry corridor is kind of

270
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the, the weather comes from the, from the Caribbean side, hits the mountains, drops all its rain,

271
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comes over the mountains and it's drier and you get a lot of rain in Panama. So to find a dry spot

272
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is nice. So, but it's still beautiful. You get enough rain for the, you know, the orchards and

273
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gardens there too. And, and, you know, that one, much like the, the, the Costa Rican one, we have

274
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the tilapia pond we have the stream that goes through it we have music studios we have a

275
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woodworking studio and different types of things stables for horses importing horses and stuff like

276
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that chicken coops for the eggs and that sort of stuff so and how many how many places that one's

277
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around 100 and currently people building yeah we just got the permits a few months ago to to

278
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actually start building that Panama's trying to model itself like Costa Rica

279
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and literally halfway through our permitting they introduced the climate

280
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change department and we had to start our environmental permitting all over

281
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again but we have I would say about 20-25 homes that are going to be starting

282
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well we've got five getting close to finish we were allowed to buy build five

283
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homes as model homes sort of for the for the purpose of showing people what the

284
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community is going to be like and so those are almost done and now we're starting i mean it's

285
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almost sold out so i it's hard to say how many homes we're going to have built by the this time

286
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next year and it's up to the people that buy the plots to to build their own no we built the homes

287
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um we didn't used to but we we we've done we changed a few things we uh the three things i

288
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say that are important for us now is we build the homes because we want people to have a good quality

289
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home when they get there because it's very difficult to hire a Latin American construction

290
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group and not be there and you're going to get like rebar that's too small and you know

291
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just it just going to happen right and we also have our own turnkey We have Veritas RPM RPM stands for rental and property management

292
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We used to have other property managers handle the communities,

293
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but if they do a poor job and they don't clean the houses properly and rentals

294
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and people come there and they're not happy, it reflects poorly on the community.

295
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So we've decided to take that over and manage it ourself in all the Veritas villages.

296
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And then we have a two-year build period.

297
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So we have a whole bunch of more than a dozen home models that people really like.

298
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I'm pretty proud of our architectural group.

299
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And, you know, we have a lot to pick from, but it's a freedom-oriented community.

300
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If you want to design your own home, you can do that.

301
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And so we also, you know, are building them for the quality reason.

302
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But we have a two-year build period because what I've noticed after a couple of decades of doing this,

303
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there's a lot of developments that just get two or three homes done.

304
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and then they stop there and like some developer thought he was a developer and he sold to his

305
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sister and his dentist or something and that's where it stops and you see them littered all over

306
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central america with the with home construction or resorts like that this never happened and then

307
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you can't support them because nobody's paying hoa fees and you can't keep the place looking nice and

308
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it just turns into a ghost town so in order to not have that happen ever for us we have the right to

309
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buy your property back for what you paid for it within two after two years if you haven't started

310
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construction is that right yeah that's it so okay and you are anticipating everyone's just gonna

311
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yeah i mean the people have been we're the people haven't been the bottleneck the climate change

312
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department has been the bottleneck and so you know now that we have that permit it's it's really

313
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starting to rocket i i think there's a couple homes that will be actually done before the end

314
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of this year so people definitely in 2026 we'll have people living there great and there was one

315
00:26:48,914 --> 00:26:52,894
more wasn't it oh costa rica obviously yeah nothing there yet nothing there just in permitting

316
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there like i said costa rica's pretty uh retentive about their permitting so we're on a good track

317
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though it's going faster than i actually expected so that's good alex hi tim hello mate you're here

318
00:27:07,294 --> 00:27:15,714
as well i noticed you there hi um so what now why are you here alex i'm here because uh amongst all

319
00:27:15,714 --> 00:27:17,774
the other things that Autris has been doing.

320
00:27:18,414 --> 00:27:21,494
We should probably, Autris is the parent company of Veritas Village.

321
00:27:21,714 --> 00:27:21,894
Yes.

322
00:27:22,054 --> 00:27:23,334
Autris is your original company.

323
00:27:23,454 --> 00:27:23,794
Exactly.

324
00:27:24,014 --> 00:27:24,454
Right, yeah.

325
00:27:24,554 --> 00:27:29,254
And it's a public company, AUTR, on the stock exchange, and we acquired BitCorp, which was

326
00:27:29,254 --> 00:27:30,254
Alex and Tidus.

327
00:27:30,594 --> 00:27:32,154
Okay, Alex's company, right.

328
00:27:32,274 --> 00:27:32,674
Exactly.

329
00:27:33,074 --> 00:27:33,354
Why?

330
00:27:34,354 --> 00:27:42,934
Well, the reason for the acquisition is really the vision of Patrick aligned with the vision

331
00:27:42,934 --> 00:27:49,774
that Titus and I had in founding BitCorp. It really stems from the concept of the Bitcoin

332
00:27:49,774 --> 00:27:54,814
Treasury Company. It's quite a phenomena that is taking place, I don't know, over the last,

333
00:27:54,954 --> 00:28:01,294
call it six to 12 months. Obviously, a little bit longer too, if you consider the case study of

334
00:28:01,294 --> 00:28:10,734
strategy or micro strategy. This was something we had somewhat glanced over, I would say.

335
00:28:11,314 --> 00:28:12,794
Not that we were against it.

336
00:28:12,854 --> 00:28:16,774
It just didn't really dig in and take the time to really understand it.

337
00:28:17,294 --> 00:28:27,714
But after, you know, really taking some time to look at it based on, you know, some interactions we've had in the general free city space, I thought it does make some sense.

338
00:28:28,134 --> 00:28:29,834
It does make some sense to try to do this.

339
00:28:29,834 --> 00:28:33,494
But not all of the narratives that you hear in the space make sense.

340
00:28:34,034 --> 00:28:35,834
I think there is a lot of financialization.

341
00:28:35,834 --> 00:28:42,974
financialization. There's a lot of sort of Wall Street changing around cash flows, securitizing

342
00:28:42,974 --> 00:28:48,734
things. I'm not so sure I'm a big believer in much of that, but I'm a huge believer in Bitcoin over

343
00:28:48,734 --> 00:28:56,674
the long term. And I am very much convinced that this concept of a corporate entity that can have

344
00:28:56,674 --> 00:29:03,974
leverage, but over a long duration. So it's not like buying an ETF with two times leverage,

345
00:29:03,974 --> 00:29:07,654
where it just goes up twice as much and down twice as much the very next day.

346
00:29:07,654 --> 00:29:17,774
It's leverage over potentially a decade or even multiple decades that really helps the

347
00:29:17,774 --> 00:29:24,314
corporate entity be an efficient vehicle to accumulate Bitcoin faster than an individual

348
00:29:24,314 --> 00:29:30,274
could accumulate Bitcoin while being immune from the cycles of Bitcoin in these roughly

349
00:29:30,274 --> 00:29:31,934
four-year cycles that we've seen.

350
00:29:31,934 --> 00:29:37,434
the the thing about bitcoin treasury companies obviously i'm in them i'm in the bitcoin world a

351
00:29:37,434 --> 00:29:43,394
lot and there's a massive distrust of whenever you mentioned the word bitcoin treasury company

352
00:29:43,394 --> 00:29:49,094
apart from microstrategy and obviously probably meta planet people always give them they they

353
00:29:49,094 --> 00:29:54,874
give microstrategy a pass because it's just like obvious and then they go oh and meta planet and

354
00:29:54,874 --> 00:30:00,154
then everyone else and you do see a lot of them doing really badly and what you know my conclusion

355
00:30:00,154 --> 00:30:06,374
from looking at all this is that a Bitcoin treasury company,

356
00:30:06,514 --> 00:30:10,874
inverted commas, that works is a company that basically has a business

357
00:30:10,874 --> 00:30:13,434
and is stacking Bitcoin in a treasury.

358
00:30:13,734 --> 00:30:16,254
But it's almost like I wouldn't call that a Bitcoin treasury company.

359
00:30:16,374 --> 00:30:21,174
The treasury companies, I think, are the ones that just start a company

360
00:30:21,174 --> 00:30:25,094
to buy Bitcoin like MicroStrategy kind of did.

361
00:30:25,154 --> 00:30:28,574
But I know they had a business as well, which was generating, what,

362
00:30:28,574 --> 00:30:29,674
50 million a year or whatever.

363
00:30:29,674 --> 00:30:35,514
But so are you really, is it really a, I mean, is that just the terminology of it?

364
00:30:36,374 --> 00:30:39,454
Well, if I can jump in for one thing, I just want to clarify that, you know,

365
00:30:39,534 --> 00:30:42,534
Atris is a real company building Veritas Villages, right?

366
00:30:42,554 --> 00:30:42,994
Of course, yeah, that's what I mean.

367
00:30:43,074 --> 00:30:45,134
And we have never actually bought Bitcoin.

368
00:30:45,354 --> 00:30:46,574
We sell our homes in Bitcoin.

369
00:30:46,714 --> 00:30:50,714
So every Bitcoin that we've stacked has been through transactions.

370
00:30:51,454 --> 00:30:55,174
So, but we are huge believers in Bitcoin, just as Alex mentioned.

371
00:30:55,174 --> 00:31:02,674
And so whether you want to call it a Bitcoin treasury or whatever, we keep a certain amount of our treasury in Bitcoin.

372
00:31:03,374 --> 00:31:07,294
And, you know, in the past, we've set limits, you know, 20%, 30%.

373
00:31:07,294 --> 00:31:13,674
Frankly, if we were in only developing in El Salvador and I could pay construction companies with Bitcoin, that's all we would have.

374
00:31:13,754 --> 00:31:15,254
I have zero faith in fiat.

375
00:31:15,574 --> 00:31:17,854
So, you know, that's the reason.

376
00:31:17,854 --> 00:31:19,974
And, you know, fortunately so.

377
00:31:20,094 --> 00:31:22,534
We sold homes when Bitcoin was at $40,000.

378
00:31:22,654 --> 00:31:24,894
Now we're at whatever, $110 today or whatever it is.

379
00:31:25,174 --> 00:31:26,914
You know, it's been good for the company, right?

380
00:31:27,074 --> 00:31:31,654
We had a 500% increase in our Bitcoin holdings over the last year.

381
00:31:32,434 --> 00:31:40,674
Well, also, I think, I mean, I've spoken to a number of real estate people actually on this podcast recently.

382
00:31:40,674 --> 00:31:48,474
And everyone seems to acknowledge now that having a Bitcoin treasury is an essential part of any business.

383
00:31:48,474 --> 00:32:02,454
I mean, if you have any business, even if you generate, even if you kind of get an investment of 20 million or 30 million, you should take a pocket of that and put it in Bitcoin for the long term.

384
00:32:02,654 --> 00:32:03,634
That should be your strategy.

385
00:32:03,634 --> 00:32:07,274
Five years ago when we started doing that, everybody thought we were lunatics though.

386
00:32:07,834 --> 00:32:08,354
Yeah, well, I know.

387
00:32:08,434 --> 00:32:09,194
You were ahead of the game.

388
00:32:09,274 --> 00:32:09,774
That's pretty cool.

389
00:32:09,834 --> 00:32:12,754
But now, like I say, it's especially amongst the real estate people.

390
00:32:12,874 --> 00:32:15,914
It's very common to think that.

391
00:32:15,914 --> 00:32:18,734
But really, what it is, is every business.

392
00:32:19,074 --> 00:32:27,114
Whatever business you're starting, you should have a treasury because it will allow you, as long as you can think long term and you're not going to spend it too quickly.

393
00:32:27,774 --> 00:32:33,474
You know, it's part of your business model going forwards because it will end up helping you to invest and stuff.

394
00:32:33,674 --> 00:32:39,474
But so, yeah, you're not a treasury company, but you're calling it a treasury, right?

395
00:32:40,174 --> 00:32:40,854
We are.

396
00:32:40,994 --> 00:32:42,734
I mean, I think you're exactly right.

397
00:32:42,734 --> 00:32:48,274
Our view is definitely you need an operating company and we simply hold Bitcoin in our treasury.

398
00:32:48,754 --> 00:32:59,974
I would say we are a treasury company to the extent that we are familiar with the tactics and the mechanisms that people can use to create Bitcoin yield, as it's called.

399
00:33:00,114 --> 00:33:02,594
So increase the amount of Bitcoin on a per share basis.

400
00:33:03,374 --> 00:33:10,614
We can and will do some of this over time, but it's simply not the priority right now.

401
00:33:10,614 --> 00:33:17,234
We are too small at Autrys and too focused on developing real estate.

402
00:33:17,234 --> 00:33:19,954
So it is really a vehicle for stacking.

403
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:25,092
at this point. And so to the extent that that's not a Bitcoin treasury, then sure, we're also not.

404
00:33:25,572 --> 00:33:31,232
But so when everyone talks about MNAV, if you're in a treasury company, he's always gone about MNAV.

405
00:33:31,312 --> 00:33:35,052
This is how I think I understand it. Tell me if I'm wrong. You're the finance guy.

406
00:33:35,752 --> 00:33:41,552
MNAV is the valuation of your company versus the valuation of your Bitcoin holdings.

407
00:33:41,972 --> 00:33:47,532
And if it's one, if the MNAV is one, they're the same. And if it's less than one, it means

408
00:33:47,532 --> 00:33:52,872
you're basically, you're not generating enough income from your company. If it's more than one,

409
00:33:52,952 --> 00:33:57,112
your company is generating good income. Is that loosely speaking how it works?

410
00:33:57,472 --> 00:34:01,332
Well, it's very close. I mean, that is how it should trade. That's right.

411
00:34:02,232 --> 00:34:09,672
My background, even before, you know, one of my first jobs actually, was working for

412
00:34:10,252 --> 00:34:16,272
an asset manager in Chicago called Ariel Investments. And the focus of Ariel Investments,

413
00:34:16,272 --> 00:34:22,752
at least the fund that I was working in, was something called deep value. Deep value is not

414
00:34:22,752 --> 00:34:28,012
just value stocks like Warren Buffett would try to find, but actually often money losing stocks.

415
00:34:28,292 --> 00:34:35,332
Stocks that had a balance sheet of, call it a million dollars, but every year they lose $25,000.

416
00:34:36,172 --> 00:34:41,472
And so then what you're trying, and the market has valued the company quite low as a result.

417
00:34:41,472 --> 00:34:47,452
and the question that you're trying to figure out as an analyst in this sector is not the growth

418
00:34:47,452 --> 00:34:51,972
actually what you're trying to figure out is what is the stock of money versus the

419
00:34:51,972 --> 00:34:59,392
the amount that they lose through bad management every year and if they're slightly less bad at

420
00:34:59,392 --> 00:35:04,612
management over time then actually the stock could increase in price even though they're losing money

421
00:35:04,612 --> 00:35:14,812
this is um this is how the markets are treating um the valuation of these sorts uh of all companies

422
00:35:14,812 --> 00:35:19,452
but in particular this you know i think this analogy helps me understand this m nav concept

423
00:35:19,452 --> 00:35:27,332
you can trade at a one m nav when you are not generating any income but you're also not you

424
00:35:27,332 --> 00:35:34,152
have no expenses nothing so i have 10 shares on the balance sheet and i have 10 bitcoins and i

425
00:35:34,152 --> 00:35:40,552
there we go. You know, we don't, we don't, nothing changes over time. But the MNAV should actually be

426
00:35:40,552 --> 00:35:48,672
higher than one. If I am able to generate enough cash flow through an operating business or through

427
00:35:48,672 --> 00:35:54,792
MetaPlanet is selling options or through financial structuring, you know, mechanisms that strategy

428
00:35:54,792 --> 00:36:00,272
and others are doing to actually create income to increase the amount of Bitcoin that I can

429
00:36:00,272 --> 00:36:06,592
generate for my company while the shares remain the exact same. To the extent I'm losing money,

430
00:36:06,592 --> 00:36:14,332
I should trade at an MNAV of below 1.0. And that's the sort of interesting dichotomy we've seen

431
00:36:14,332 --> 00:36:20,692
when this was really hot six months ago. People were trading at MNAVs of 6, 7, 8. Well, when you

432
00:36:20,692 --> 00:36:26,172
trade at an MNAV of that level or higher, you should definitely be issuing shares into the market

433
00:36:26,172 --> 00:36:28,872
using those proceeds to buy Bitcoin,

434
00:36:29,072 --> 00:36:32,632
and you're able to accumulate more Bitcoin on a per share basis,

435
00:36:33,072 --> 00:36:35,752
which increases the performance of the company.

436
00:36:36,452 --> 00:36:40,252
And is it fair to say, like, it's fair to say that over the period

437
00:36:40,252 --> 00:36:44,412
since the treasury company idea is kind of memed into existence,

438
00:36:45,172 --> 00:36:48,532
people are starting to work out that it's a bad idea,

439
00:36:48,532 --> 00:36:52,852
unless you're microstrategy, to be a pure treasury company,

440
00:36:53,392 --> 00:36:55,492
because Bitcoin is too volatile at the moment.

441
00:36:55,492 --> 00:36:57,752
and you're going to end up getting...

442
00:36:57,752 --> 00:36:58,872
Especially if you're leveraged.

443
00:36:59,232 --> 00:37:00,352
Right, yeah.

444
00:37:00,712 --> 00:37:02,492
Which it kind of is leveraged though, isn't it?

445
00:37:02,832 --> 00:37:04,352
It is, isn't it by this,

446
00:37:04,612 --> 00:37:07,092
because it's leveraged by its nature almost.

447
00:37:08,152 --> 00:37:09,752
Well, you're giving away custody.

448
00:37:10,012 --> 00:37:12,092
Of course, you can self-custody your own Bitcoin,

449
00:37:12,232 --> 00:37:13,952
but you can't self-custody your own shares,

450
00:37:14,052 --> 00:37:15,052
at least as of now.

451
00:37:15,412 --> 00:37:16,772
So you're giving, you know, some,

452
00:37:17,012 --> 00:37:19,872
you have other managers, in this case,

453
00:37:19,932 --> 00:37:22,812
Autrest that is holding the keys to the Bitcoin,

454
00:37:22,812 --> 00:37:30,932
you know that you hold indirectly through it but but so yeah and and the so the like i say the

455
00:37:30,932 --> 00:37:37,332
the realization has been this is my realization just from listening to podcasts is that people

456
00:37:37,332 --> 00:37:43,772
are realizing that it's important to have a business not just become a treasury company but

457
00:37:43,772 --> 00:37:50,132
really like you say which is why i kind of wonder whether it's even a treasury company it's certainly

458
00:37:50,132 --> 00:37:56,852
not until you're actually creating products that you're using which as in financial products

459
00:37:56,852 --> 00:38:02,552
that you're using then that's the treasury bit right so you to begin with you're stacking bitcoin

460
00:38:02,552 --> 00:38:09,012
and having it on your balance sheet and then if a time cut a certain time comes then you start

461
00:38:09,012 --> 00:38:14,692
creating financial products to i mean the idea obviously of the treasury company is to beat the

462
00:38:14,692 --> 00:38:19,892
price of bitcoin right as well that that's the is that i mean am i getting that right is that the

463
00:38:19,892 --> 00:38:25,332
kind of base layer of it the whole point of it is to beat because bitcoin is pretty otherwise you

464
00:38:25,332 --> 00:38:29,472
just buy bitcoin itself right exactly that's what i mean it's a pretty good investment anyway

465
00:38:29,472 --> 00:38:35,412
it's exactly right and that's why the m nav if you're not able to accumulate bitcoin faster

466
00:38:35,412 --> 00:38:41,412
should be at one or actually probably less than one because you're no longer holding the keys to

467
00:38:41,412 --> 00:38:44,612
it and you're giving up you know you have counterparty risk and all of these sorts of things

468
00:38:44,612 --> 00:38:49,872
but the idea really is that i mean i think you're right you're seeing this trend m navs were very

469
00:38:49,872 --> 00:38:55,312
high it was hot it was a bit of a bubble they've come down in my opinion they've crashed down in

470
00:38:55,312 --> 00:39:02,312
many cases too low because they're now trading at mnavs of a third which means effectively i can buy

471
00:39:02,312 --> 00:39:09,032
one bitcoin for one third of the price by buying the stock now it's not a perfectly apples to apples

472
00:39:09,032 --> 00:39:13,932
comparison because i'm not actually buying the bitcoin i'm buying the company that holds the

473
00:39:13,932 --> 00:39:18,892
bitcoin and i'm trusting that a they won't lose the keys that they are not going to spend money

474
00:39:18,892 --> 00:39:26,432
you know wildly and lose a bunch of money uh over the next number of years etc but you know a third

475
00:39:26,432 --> 00:39:31,512
versus you know i can get one bitcoin for for a third of the price that seems to me

476
00:39:31,512 --> 00:39:36,232
to be quite substantial but it matters on a you know individual company basis and as far as

477
00:39:36,232 --> 00:39:42,812
micro strategy goes as a as the best example of a treasury company is this correct as well this is

478
00:39:42,812 --> 00:39:48,532
what i understand about the way their business operates not forget the old actually it's strategy

479
00:39:48,532 --> 00:39:55,092
now, isn't it? Forget their old business. But the Bitcoin side of it is basically they're buying

480
00:39:55,092 --> 00:40:03,972
Bitcoin and they're giving people a 10% yield on a product that they're getting a much bigger yield

481
00:40:03,972 --> 00:40:10,132
on, which is the Bitcoin. And the people that are buying the 10% yield are just people who either

482
00:40:10,132 --> 00:40:15,332
don't know what Bitcoin is, don't care. They just want 10% yield, which is a pretty good yield

483
00:40:15,332 --> 00:40:22,012
anyway. Meanwhile, MicroStrategy are taking that money and buying Bitcoin with it, which

484
00:40:22,012 --> 00:40:25,372
year on year has a much bigger yield than that. Is that how it works?

485
00:40:26,272 --> 00:40:32,252
Effectively, that is. And actually, during periods of time, Bitcoin does not outperform

486
00:40:32,252 --> 00:40:38,172
the 10% yield. And we've seen that MicroStrategy stock or strategy stock has gotten hit quite a bit

487
00:40:38,172 --> 00:40:42,192
in the market at the moment because of this sort of thing, as well as other sentiments, of course.

488
00:40:42,192 --> 00:40:49,092
but absolutely this is true i mean the bet from from michael saylor is that over the long term he

489
00:40:49,092 --> 00:40:55,872
wants the bitcoin he's willing to pay out uh you know in order to get your capital to use that to

490
00:40:55,872 --> 00:41:01,712
invest in bitcoin he's willing to pay you out a certain coupon you know over time in order to have

491
00:41:01,712 --> 00:41:07,372
his exposure to bitcoin and you know of course he's been proven 100 correct in this for you know

492
00:41:07,372 --> 00:41:12,452
four or five years. I think he is generally speaking correct about this over the long term,

493
00:41:12,632 --> 00:41:19,032
but it is somewhat new territory. Hence the idea that, because they've already done it,

494
00:41:19,412 --> 00:41:25,492
and they have the economy of scale now, they have the complete ability to keep doing it. Whereas if

495
00:41:25,492 --> 00:41:32,652
you do it, if you want to start doing it now, you really need an operating business to sort of,

496
00:41:32,652 --> 00:41:45,510
you know be the backbone of the curves yeah exactly if bitcoin dropped in half today it doesn matter to me at all our business is what keeps us going And in fact we would be acquiring Bitcoin in that case It better for us if Bitcoin has

497
00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:46,710
We can buy twice as much.

498
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:47,090
Yeah.

499
00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:54,470
So apart from people buying property for Bitcoin, is the idea to buy Bitcoin as well?

500
00:41:54,650 --> 00:41:55,970
Well, now with BitCorp, yeah.

501
00:41:56,210 --> 00:41:56,470
Yeah.

502
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:57,390
Absolutely.

503
00:41:57,630 --> 00:42:02,770
We want to be really not just a Bitcoin treasury company, but a holistic Bitcoin company.

504
00:42:02,770 --> 00:42:07,850
We're creating Bitcoin citadels in the form of Veritas villages. We're holding Bitcoin on the balance sheet

505
00:42:07,850 --> 00:42:14,090
We would like to enter the field of this sort of Bitcoin Treasury company at the right time at the right place and in a strategic manner

506
00:42:14,170 --> 00:42:16,170
We want to mine Bitcoin with the energy

507
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:23,170
Produced to add Veritas villages. We want the people in the Veritas villages to use it as a medium of exchange

508
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:25,850
We're potentially thinking of looking at

509
00:42:25,850 --> 00:42:33,310
developing the HOA rules for these villages on a Bitcoin sidechain, you know, through a DAO, that sort of thing.

510
00:42:33,310 --> 00:42:40,630
So yeah, we're really trying to become the holistic Bitcoin Citadel, you know, that Bitcoiners are talking about the place where,

511
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:45,230
you know, we're doing everything on Bitcoin and with Bitcoin, but also with Bitcoiners.

512
00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:49,590
That's absolutely the idea of joining forces with Autrys and Bitcorp.

513
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:52,470
Right, that is interesting.

514
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:57,390
So I guess I actually misspoke before when I said the only Bitcoin we have is from sales.

515
00:42:57,390 --> 00:43:01,010
It's actually a little bit from mining too, because we were, as far as I know, the only

516
00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:04,210
solar powered mining company in Latin America.

517
00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:08,650
So is it true that your, each property has the option?

518
00:43:08,650 --> 00:43:09,650
Yeah.

519
00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:14,650
In fact, I mean, the goal, honestly, when we started testing the mining on solar systems

520
00:43:14,650 --> 00:43:20,710
is that most of the solar systems, well, backing up a little bit, we tried an experiment with

521
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:24,950
solar farm and everybody getting their power from the farm it would actually be a lot less expensive

522
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:29,110
for us to do it that way because it's you know at any given time maybe there's 80 of the people

523
00:43:29,110 --> 00:43:35,270
living there 20 or somewhere else where they're not using power but the people didn't like it so

524
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:41,350
it's like no well john's using more power than i am and so these are independent people privacy

525
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:46,950
oriented people and they're also you know from a sustainable or resiliency standpoint they want

526
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:53,510
their own system so if john's goes down mine didn't and so in we have to build these systems

527
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:58,790
for each home it comes with the homes when you buy them we're very expert knowledgeable in these

528
00:43:58,790 --> 00:44:04,230
systems now we experiment with different ones every week but um you know that because we have

529
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:09,430
to build for the for the peak usage like new year's eve everybody's partying all night and

530
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:13,830
using a lot of battery power that was created during you know the storage during the day in the

531
00:44:13,830 --> 00:44:20,310
the panels, we have to overbuild these systems, frankly. And so there's a lot of excess generated

532
00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:26,470
power that on a normal day is not used. So we started offloading that to the Bitcoin miners.

533
00:44:27,250 --> 00:44:33,730
And so anybody can do that with their system. And the goal when I started doing this as an

534
00:44:33,730 --> 00:44:38,090
experiment was there's only really two expenses after you buy your home in a Veritas village

535
00:44:38,090 --> 00:44:43,230
because your food and your water and everything's free. Your expenses are out of our control in one

536
00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:47,750
case, which is property tax, which is very low in Latin America. I mean, it would be less than

537
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:53,030
$1,000 a year most of the time. But the other one is your HOA fees. In order to keep the communities

538
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:59,150
beautiful, we have to have a homeowners association. As Alex mentioned, we're doing that on a Dow and

539
00:44:59,150 --> 00:45:02,670
with quadratic voting, which we can talk about too, which I find very interesting.

540
00:45:03,610 --> 00:45:12,390
But if the Bitcoin miner does nothing else but pay for your property tax and your HOA fees,

541
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:18,770
it's reached my goal of a net whopping zero for cost so do you so do you you don't build the

542
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:23,650
houses with a miner included right no we don't we've talked about like we kind of have a catalog

543
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:28,330
of options so we can throw that in there the issue is on some of some of those things they

544
00:45:28,330 --> 00:45:34,310
change so fast like the miner we bought six months ago is outdated now it's slower than everything

545
00:45:34,310 --> 00:45:39,270
that's on the market so it's kind of to me it's like buying a phone or a laptop you got to just

546
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:43,950
bite the bullet at some point and buy it because you need to use it but we make it up in the cost

547
00:45:43,950 --> 00:45:48,810
of electricity because it is it is zero i mean it's literally zero almost every miner in the world

548
00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:55,270
has got this massive expense of power unless you got lucky enough to get the offshoots of a natural

549
00:45:55,270 --> 00:46:00,830
gas plant or something that you do get free power in our case it's free like i don't really care

550
00:46:00,830 --> 00:46:07,410
what bitcoin's price is as long as i'm mining it for free so i mean a lot of cases they have to

551
00:46:07,410 --> 00:46:12,590
see well i'm losing money because i'm not if bitcoin isn't over a hundred thousand

552
00:46:12,590 --> 00:46:17,070
the mining is actually taking more power than i'm gaining from it in our case i don't really

553
00:46:17,070 --> 00:46:21,030
care what it is because we're always going to make money at it but the houses aren't connected

554
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:26,110
all up in a grid so if someone's house is producing electricity and what happens when

555
00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:31,210
the batteries fall nothing well exactly there's all that excess power i mean but they're not

556
00:46:31,210 --> 00:46:36,190
connected there's no way they can choose to it's a freedom learning to community they can choose to

557
00:46:36,190 --> 00:46:40,970
you know if 10 neighbors beside each other want to you know do net metering between them they can

558
00:46:40,970 --> 00:46:46,970
we found that they didn't want to so we didn't force it on them but there so for that reason you

559
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:50,150
know it could be 10 in the morning and your batteries are all fully charged again like

560
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:57,030
the power of the sun near the equator is massive and like we i was doing this in canada and you

561
00:46:57,030 --> 00:47:02,930
know you'd take 50 panels to produce what i'm getting out of three by the equator so it one of

562
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:07,550
course the technology changes every week too they're getting better and better but yeah so

563
00:47:07,550 --> 00:47:12,010
literally you know our welcome center is a good example that's where in in the coronado property

564
00:47:12,010 --> 00:47:18,550
that's where we have a you know do our bitcoin mining testing and uh usually by 10 a.m you know

565
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:23,270
from 6 30 or in the morning 6 6 30 in the morning you're already generating massive amounts of power

566
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:28,690
by 10 a.m it's you know you don't know what to do with all this power and and it's thousands and

567
00:47:28,690 --> 00:47:33,710
thousands of watts and so it's like what the batteries are full like and we can keep adding

568
00:47:33,710 --> 00:47:38,230
batteries but it's not going to help we don't ever use them we got 60 kilowatt hours in this home

569
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:43,710
anyway so yeah it's might as well use it have you got a system then that would switch a miner on and

570
00:47:43,710 --> 00:47:51,770
off exactly i can do it remotely from here really yeah i mean that's a side business right there

571
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:58,290
isn't it just people with miners yeah just talking to the homeowners and say look you know just you

572
00:47:58,290 --> 00:48:04,330
The Bitcoin and the freedom-oriented community Venn diagram overlaps almost 100%.

573
00:48:04,330 --> 00:48:06,650
Everybody in the community is interested in this.

574
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:11,410
And everybody loves the fact that in Nicaragua, you can go to a restaurant and pay with Bitcoin.

575
00:48:11,790 --> 00:48:19,730
So we're creating these Bitcoin citadels quietly that nobody really knows about.

576
00:48:19,730 --> 00:48:32,310
Talking of the Bitcoin Citadel concept, what's your latest thoughts on sovereignty and independence and that kind of stuff, other than the obvious energy independence and stuff?

577
00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:39,170
Is that something that you think about, talk about, moving towards, talking to anyone in the government about, anything like that?

578
00:48:39,250 --> 00:48:39,930
All the time.

579
00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:40,890
Oh, all the time.

580
00:48:40,990 --> 00:48:41,150
All right.

581
00:48:42,210 --> 00:48:49,710
I mean, that's pretty much how Alex and I met, I guess, to be honest, is talking to governments in Latin America and convincing them to do these things.

582
00:48:49,730 --> 00:48:51,470
without us having to do it.

583
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:54,070
And you'll see in my presentation this afternoon,

584
00:48:54,130 --> 00:48:55,610
I talk on a few slides on this,

585
00:48:55,790 --> 00:48:58,070
is a lot of entities,

586
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:59,390
and I would say including typical,

587
00:48:59,490 --> 00:49:01,970
let's come at it from a top-down perspective, right?

588
00:49:02,010 --> 00:49:03,330
We want this governance.

589
00:49:03,830 --> 00:49:05,050
And when you give us this governance,

590
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:06,990
I'm not saying it's a bad, we need both approaches.

591
00:49:07,090 --> 00:49:08,370
When you come down from the top,

592
00:49:08,830 --> 00:49:09,570
we want this governance.

593
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:11,090
And the problem in Latin America

594
00:49:11,090 --> 00:49:13,610
is giving away sovereignty on a promise

595
00:49:13,610 --> 00:49:15,830
that something might happen is almost impossible.

596
00:49:16,290 --> 00:49:18,790
And that's what I was running into all the time.

597
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:24,310
so we've actually turned a page here in the last few months which is really nice finally because

598
00:49:24,310 --> 00:49:28,690
years ago four or five years ago and we sort of started building the veritas villages to start

599
00:49:28,690 --> 00:49:34,330
with we tried the same thing it's because like we want to have our own i don't know police force we

600
00:49:34,330 --> 00:49:39,310
want to we want to have you know government as a service within these walls and they were just like

601
00:49:39,310 --> 00:49:43,730
you're you're a lunatic and but i said look we're going to create all these jobs we're going to bring

602
00:49:43,730 --> 00:49:48,610
in wealthy expats these are luxury homes they're not yurts in the forest right and so

603
00:49:48,610 --> 00:49:52,510
these people are going to bring their companies here, which they are doing now.

604
00:49:52,510 --> 00:50:11,548
We got guys with snowmobile parts that are moving their companies to our area and living in Veritas So it totally unrelated to being in the tropics but because we near the canal too and the cost of labor is a tenth of what it is in other countries or in first world so first world countries

605
00:50:12,488 --> 00:50:17,248
But so now the government's actually calling me and saying, hey, love what you're doing.

606
00:50:17,248 --> 00:50:21,188
You're basically the poster child for the kind of developments we'd like to see.

607
00:50:21,188 --> 00:50:29,088
what would it take to convince you to do more or expand and now i've got their attention to say well

608
00:50:29,088 --> 00:50:35,848
alex come with me let's go talk to them about what what we would really like and and so i think

609
00:50:35,848 --> 00:50:41,808
in a way it's happening faster than i was expecting it to because usually i mean you got to understand

610
00:50:41,808 --> 00:50:45,308
that these governments have been promised a million things from gringos all the time it's

611
00:50:45,308 --> 00:50:50,068
like and and like even when i was saying there's a sprinkling of failed resorts all over the place

612
00:50:50,068 --> 00:50:54,768
So they look at that and they go, yeah, this guy also wanted a bunch of things and look, you know, good.

613
00:50:54,868 --> 00:50:56,868
He made three homes, right?

614
00:50:57,428 --> 00:50:59,508
So the jobs didn't happen and all those things.

615
00:50:59,628 --> 00:51:07,048
So I understand their position and to give away sovereignty for countries like this that have, you know, gone through, you know, they're going the right direction.

616
00:51:07,048 --> 00:51:12,688
They've gone through communism or socialism and they're really eating up capitalism now and that's great.

617
00:51:13,268 --> 00:51:18,428
And they're certainly going from far left to much more centric or a little bit right these days.

618
00:51:18,428 --> 00:51:22,688
You know, you got Noboa in Ecuador, you got Millet as a libertarian in Argentina.

619
00:51:23,328 --> 00:51:32,068
So the countries are, I had a heat map at one point where 20 years ago, how socialist they were and all the countries there that have gone to more capitalists.

620
00:51:32,108 --> 00:51:33,048
And it was very interesting.

621
00:51:33,248 --> 00:51:35,988
But anyway, so it's a process.

622
00:51:36,128 --> 00:51:40,688
But like I said, I'm pleased with the fact that they're actually starting to pay a little bit of attention to us.

623
00:51:40,688 --> 00:51:50,648
And for us to go talk to countries like Ecuador, you know, Nivoa, they want to say, where's an example of what you've done?

624
00:51:51,368 --> 00:51:54,808
So they say, well, come to Panama, come to Nicaragua, we'll show you what the community looks like.

625
00:51:54,868 --> 00:52:00,128
And this is a small model of what could be a free city.

626
00:52:00,128 --> 00:52:13,368
So when you're approaching governments, are you in this, are you, I'm assuming, your strategy is the kind of evolution of the economic zone? Is that where you're at?

627
00:52:13,368 --> 00:52:25,488
Absolutely. And look, I think we are talking about terms that have a lot of overlap, but we are really not focused on sovereignty.

628
00:52:25,908 --> 00:52:32,208
At Tipolis, I really don't think even at Autros, full sovereignty is really what's wanted.

629
00:52:32,368 --> 00:52:36,308
I mean, that includes a lot of headaches that actually we're not interested in taking on.

630
00:52:36,748 --> 00:52:41,668
What this is, is much consistent with the Bitcoin ethos, is actually just decentralization of governance.

631
00:52:42,208 --> 00:52:45,328
It means the ability to make your own rules on a local level.

632
00:52:45,328 --> 00:52:50,948
We understand that there are certain things that must be done on a national level in whichever country we are.

633
00:52:51,288 --> 00:52:59,148
In fact, we would like to benefit from and even pay for things like national defense and international relations and diplomacy, that sort of thing.

634
00:52:59,588 --> 00:53:06,688
Rather, the question is more about what are the rules and regulations that a local people can choose to live by and live under?

635
00:53:06,688 --> 00:53:17,108
And one of the most effective mechanisms for that has really been the evolution of special zones that you've heard probably from everyone on the Tipolis team and many others as well.

636
00:53:17,788 --> 00:53:20,568
And that's really one of the places that's really applicable.

637
00:53:20,748 --> 00:53:21,988
It is in building, right?

638
00:53:22,268 --> 00:53:23,888
Building regs and things like that.

639
00:53:23,888 --> 00:53:37,388
I mean, I'm thinking of Prospero here and Morizan and how obvious it is that you can build better, cheaper places if the regulation is under your own control.

640
00:53:37,528 --> 00:53:37,908
Absolutely.

641
00:53:38,248 --> 00:53:42,208
I mean, we obviously have talked about doing Veritas Villages within Prospero as well.

642
00:53:43,188 --> 00:53:43,468
Have you?

643
00:53:43,868 --> 00:53:49,528
And so that would be nice because it could just, you know, ask Eric, can I have the permit tomorrow?

644
00:53:50,168 --> 00:53:50,648
Yeah.

645
00:53:50,648 --> 00:53:51,048
Right.

646
00:53:51,148 --> 00:53:53,488
So that kind of thing is great.

647
00:53:53,488 --> 00:53:57,588
I mean, the biggest pain in my butt is permitting.

648
00:53:58,108 --> 00:53:59,508
It's the thing that slows us down.

649
00:53:59,588 --> 00:54:01,128
It's the only real bottleneck we have.

650
00:54:01,228 --> 00:54:02,248
We're good at building.

651
00:54:02,528 --> 00:54:03,928
We know what we want.

652
00:54:04,268 --> 00:54:08,168
And we've been very lucky in that clients love what we're doing.

653
00:54:08,728 --> 00:54:11,588
There's a bigger, well, the second biggest thing is inventory.

654
00:54:11,808 --> 00:54:16,088
I mean, I like to make sure we pick the right property before we just go ahead and build a Veritas Village.

655
00:54:16,248 --> 00:54:19,948
But once we find it, the only issue is permitting.

656
00:54:19,948 --> 00:54:29,408
So in a place like Prospera, where I don't have to ask the Honduran government, I just ask Prospera for a permit to go ahead and they'll literally give it to you in a couple of days.

657
00:54:30,228 --> 00:54:31,188
That's a huge win.

658
00:54:31,548 --> 00:54:33,548
Well, that's an important point to hit on.

659
00:54:33,848 --> 00:54:39,508
Okay, the permitting itself is very frustrating and difficult to go through and bureaucratic.

660
00:54:39,748 --> 00:54:41,028
But that's not the biggest issue.

661
00:54:41,108 --> 00:54:43,628
The biggest issue is the time that it takes.

662
00:54:44,148 --> 00:54:47,308
Everyone talks about in real estate, location, location, location.

663
00:54:47,688 --> 00:54:49,068
Okay, that's very important, yes.

664
00:54:49,068 --> 00:55:00,608
But time to execute, time to build is actually an incredibly important aspect to this because you are typically parting with a lot of capital upfront to acquire a large piece of land.

665
00:55:00,788 --> 00:55:07,428
You need to develop it and then pay back any lenders or equity contributors for this.

666
00:55:07,428 --> 00:55:18,048
And the timing, if you're just sitting on, I have to outlay $20 million to buy this property and I'm sitting on it then for four years going through permitting cycles.

667
00:55:18,048 --> 00:55:29,588
This is four years of lost returns where I could have just put $20 million in the bank and gotten, even in today's environment, 4%, or could have put half of it in Bitcoin and doubled my money over the last four years, that sort of thing.

668
00:55:30,628 --> 00:55:31,988
Yeah, time is everything for us.

669
00:55:32,368 --> 00:55:42,548
I mean, if I hadn't been lucky enough to have software companies in the past and be able to fund that time, and we have employees to pay, we have all sorts of office space and everything.

670
00:55:42,548 --> 00:55:45,568
So while we sit there, we're not sitting there, we're working with lawyers.

671
00:55:45,568 --> 00:55:51,768
day but lawyers yeah it's like a enormous amount of expenses and you know people think oh you must

672
00:55:51,768 --> 00:55:56,168
just be so easy you just buy a piece of land and people love it because you're doing this freedom

673
00:55:56,168 --> 00:56:00,048
oriented thing it's like it's there's nothing easy about it software business is way easier

674
00:56:00,048 --> 00:56:07,448
but when you talked when you say like building prospera that doesn't mean prospera the the the

675
00:56:07,448 --> 00:56:14,608
physical location yeah no prospera can kind of like build prospera in any kind of anywhere not

676
00:56:14,608 --> 00:56:18,368
yeah no i mean i'm more talking about the physical location and we've talked to them about you know

677
00:56:18,368 --> 00:56:23,328
creating a verita obviously we're very aligned in a lot of ways in the in the freedom thinking and

678
00:56:23,328 --> 00:56:28,048
and so there's there's we have no plans for it right now but there's nothing that would

679
00:56:28,528 --> 00:56:34,288
you know be an issue i think if we decided okay you know it would be nice to have another

680
00:56:34,288 --> 00:56:37,968
community on the caribbean there's a beautiful place that prospera has there and if we wanted

681
00:56:37,968 --> 00:56:44,448
to go ahead and say a carve out you know whatever 50 acres for us and they want that right

682
00:56:44,608 --> 00:56:48,068
I mean, they're always saying, come on, bring your business here.

683
00:56:48,208 --> 00:56:49,508
I like the Bitcoin district now.

684
00:56:50,308 --> 00:56:51,868
They've got a nomad district.

685
00:56:52,828 --> 00:56:55,028
I can't imagine they wouldn't want it.

686
00:56:55,288 --> 00:56:55,468
Yeah.

687
00:56:55,588 --> 00:56:58,748
No, we have some talks about it.

688
00:56:59,428 --> 00:57:02,388
What's quadratic voting then before we go?

689
00:57:02,408 --> 00:57:05,508
Well, Alex can probably do a much better scientific dive into it.

690
00:57:05,648 --> 00:57:10,128
My two cents on quadratic voting is by example and the practicality of it.

691
00:57:10,128 --> 00:57:20,388
So the biggest issue I've seen in the years that I've been involved in building towns is that the HOA is always the problem.

692
00:57:20,488 --> 00:57:22,928
Because most developers are control freaks.

693
00:57:23,048 --> 00:57:23,428
We're not.

694
00:57:23,508 --> 00:57:30,488
We turn over the HOA to the community right away because I don't need any more headaches in order to be blamed for some decision that was made.

695
00:57:30,488 --> 00:57:40,688
but you either elect or you know appoint an HOA president and their job is impossible they can't

696
00:57:40,688 --> 00:57:44,808
please all the people all the time and you know human nature is to assume that when you didn't

697
00:57:44,808 --> 00:57:48,808
get your way that person's got something in for you or whatever it is so it's a horrible job

698
00:57:48,808 --> 00:57:53,988
anybody that's been an HOA president knows that and you have to have pretty thick skin and all

699
00:57:53,988 --> 00:57:58,228
those things and it creates a lot of anxiety in the community because then everybody's got

700
00:57:58,228 --> 00:58:03,328
something to bitch about right and so what originally the idea was okay we're

701
00:58:03,328 --> 00:58:08,908
gonna use a dow because it's basically a transparent voting and if you lost I

702
00:58:08,908 --> 00:58:13,048
mean you can have you can say it has to have more than 50% on voting so there's

703
00:58:13,048 --> 00:58:25,506
kind of two stages to it let say every seven items that get a reasonable amount of votes to be voted on like say you have two tennis courts we want a third one Well okay there an example

704
00:58:25,666 --> 00:58:27,546
Let's say, okay, well, let's put that to a vote.

705
00:58:28,166 --> 00:58:31,446
And then you can vote on the blockchain with the DAO.

706
00:58:32,546 --> 00:58:40,026
And it's, you know, you can't say, oh, this one guy or this one woman didn't like me, so they decide not.

707
00:58:40,026 --> 00:58:43,626
I like tennis and they don't, and so they decided not to put in a third tennis court.

708
00:58:43,626 --> 00:58:50,486
it's the people's choice on a dow now quadratic voting i for me makes it even more fair because

709
00:58:50,486 --> 00:58:58,486
basically as an example let's say you get 100 votes per year so you tim you like tennis you're

710
00:58:58,486 --> 00:59:01,606
going to vote you're going to you're going to you're going to cash in a few of your chips you're

711
00:59:01,606 --> 00:59:06,766
going to say i'm going to take 20 of my votes because that's important to me and then other i

712
00:59:06,766 --> 00:59:11,746
always have the same examples i need to come up with some new ones but you know people don't like

713
00:59:11,746 --> 00:59:15,966
roosters in their community right so they're making noise and and in the early morning and

714
00:59:15,966 --> 00:59:19,706
i'm personally not a morning person so i don't want a rooster waking me up at five in the morning

715
00:59:19,706 --> 00:59:24,686
so but somebody doesn't care they are morning people and they get up before the roosters and

716
00:59:24,686 --> 00:59:29,626
that's fine and they'll say well i'm i may not even vote on this one or i may use one of my

717
00:59:29,626 --> 00:59:35,066
votes all right and and but in the tennis court i'm using 20 or 25 or whatever i'm a 60 you can

718
00:59:35,066 --> 00:59:40,146
do whatever you want you once your bank of votes is gone that's it so you've got to you know is that

719
00:59:40,146 --> 00:59:44,826
on a yearly basis yeah i mean that's just an example refreshed every yeah exactly and you can't

720
00:59:44,826 --> 00:59:49,486
you can't you know bank them till next year and pile up a thousand after 10 years or something but

721
00:59:49,486 --> 00:59:54,366
you'll get a load of people voting on new year's eve then yeah exactly but the interesting i mean

722
00:59:54,366 --> 00:59:59,086
the interesting thing about it is that this quadratic voting is really a solution to the

723
00:59:59,086 --> 01:00:06,346
problem of uh the loud minority usually dictates the rules in almost anything it is a way to

724
01:00:06,346 --> 01:00:14,986
effectively use mathematics in voting to understand how broad versus how deep the support for

725
01:00:14,986 --> 01:00:20,086
something is. And if something has deep support, what I mean by that is not so many people here

726
01:00:20,086 --> 01:00:26,326
want it. There's a proposal to build an opera house in the town. And it turns out that you and

727
01:00:26,326 --> 01:00:31,346
I, Tim, don't like it, but Patrick really likes it. This is not a public good at that point. It's

728
01:00:31,346 --> 01:00:35,966
really a private good. If Patrick wants it, he might vote a lot for it, but because he's going

729
01:00:35,966 --> 01:00:40,666
to put up all of his, you know, merits or whatever votes or whatever for it, they're going to get

730
01:00:40,666 --> 01:00:47,926
discounted down quite a bit versus if we say, well, we would like, you know, a sidewalk to be able to

731
01:00:47,926 --> 01:00:53,046
take us, you know, from the community center to, you know, our neighborhood, all of us like that.

732
01:00:53,046 --> 01:00:57,946
And so we're all willing to put up, you know, five votes for it rather than, you know, zero,

733
01:00:58,086 --> 01:01:04,046
zero and 100 for the opera house. Our voting of five, five and five, because it is broader,

734
01:01:04,046 --> 01:01:08,266
gets relatively elevated in terms of the value for the community.

735
01:01:08,266 --> 01:01:11,886
It's effectively a way to find out what is truly a public good,

736
01:01:12,386 --> 01:01:14,426
not the nonsense that's made up.

737
01:01:15,706 --> 01:01:17,746
Even in academia, I think it's nonsense.

738
01:01:17,986 --> 01:01:19,586
But then in popular parlance,

739
01:01:19,766 --> 01:01:23,166
public good is just like anything that I don't know

740
01:01:23,166 --> 01:01:25,086
how I would personally finance myself.

741
01:01:25,966 --> 01:01:30,066
And as a Citadel, Bitcoin Citadel company,

742
01:01:30,146 --> 01:01:33,166
you reckon that that stuff you can do on Bitcoin now?

743
01:01:33,166 --> 01:01:37,386
because I know a lot a lot of the this is the thing about a lot of the projects I've been to

744
01:01:37,386 --> 01:01:43,906
visit have basically used blockchains for various things like DAOs and decision making and stuff

745
01:01:43,906 --> 01:01:48,966
and no one yet have I discovered who's been using Bitcoin and most of them say it's because they

746
01:01:48,966 --> 01:01:56,046
didn't know how to do it but the Bitcoin blockchain doesn't it's it's um doesn't lend itself to

747
01:01:56,046 --> 01:02:01,306
things like that expansion of like an NFT type of thing which is really in a way what this is

748
01:02:01,306 --> 01:02:08,086
but there's one that I'm looking at very closely right now called Rootstock, which is a Bitcoin sidechain, which, you know, has that base.

749
01:02:08,426 --> 01:02:14,666
You know, if you look at it, it's just got, it's got everything Bitcoin's got, and then it's got the ability to, you know, be used in a voting sense and that sort of thing.

750
01:02:15,006 --> 01:02:19,506
I mean, I guess you could vote with Bitcoin blockchain just by saying you have to put your Bitcoin into this vote.

751
01:02:20,066 --> 01:02:20,426
Sorry.

752
01:02:20,926 --> 01:02:27,026
Yeah, it might, but in 20 years time, people might be spending like $100,000 to make a transaction.

753
01:02:27,026 --> 01:02:30,326
I mean, I guess you could make it just simplistically on sats.

754
01:02:30,326 --> 01:02:35,186
Like it's one sat is one vote, but you can't vote more than X number of sats or something like that.

755
01:02:35,426 --> 01:02:36,346
No, but I agree.

756
01:02:36,466 --> 01:02:40,306
I think the side chain or the layer.

757
01:02:40,506 --> 01:02:44,466
Well, and the rootstock, the reason I like that is I wanted it to be, you know,

758
01:02:44,546 --> 01:02:49,486
like it's kind of like liquid or whatever, the different side chains that are side chains of Bitcoin,

759
01:02:49,726 --> 01:02:52,046
not Ethereum side chains.

760
01:02:52,046 --> 01:02:54,006
Is it designed for decision making then, rootstock?

761
01:02:54,006 --> 01:02:55,286
It's really what it is, yeah.

762
01:02:55,486 --> 01:02:55,726
Yeah.

763
01:02:55,866 --> 01:02:56,586
Oh, there you go.

764
01:02:56,586 --> 01:03:02,226
because yeah i've never i've never known what what the what the answer to that was because a lot of

765
01:03:02,226 --> 01:03:08,146
like i say every every especially the intentional communities they all create a like a lot of them

766
01:03:08,146 --> 01:03:13,066
are creating a stable coin or they're doing a dow or whatever and they're all doing them all kinds

767
01:03:13,066 --> 01:03:17,006
of weird and wonderful chains we got enough work to do we don't need to create our own dows and

768
01:03:17,006 --> 01:03:22,846
d apps and but also if you if you're thinking long term you know i mean and if you're into i

769
01:03:22,846 --> 01:03:27,106
suppose it's more it depends how much into self-sovereignty you are because there is only

770
01:03:27,106 --> 01:03:32,866
one place where you where you really get censorship resistance really if you think because all the

771
01:03:32,866 --> 01:03:38,826
other chains are owned by someone there's a boss there's a ceo there's a this and i've not that i've

772
01:03:38,826 --> 01:03:43,626
got less militant about it over the years i must admit when i first came in it was like no you have

773
01:03:43,626 --> 01:03:49,786
to do everything with bitcoin because you're opening yourself up to is the tax vectors here

774
01:03:49,786 --> 01:03:51,746
if you don't do it on Bitcoin and that.

775
01:03:52,506 --> 01:03:53,986
But really, you know, I'm not,

776
01:03:54,446 --> 01:03:58,046
because like a lot of places use NFTs for their plots as well,

777
01:03:58,666 --> 01:03:59,866
which is fine,

778
01:04:00,326 --> 01:04:03,386
because that's a tool and you can use it

779
01:04:03,386 --> 01:04:04,226
and it's absolutely fine.

780
01:04:04,286 --> 01:04:05,526
But if you could do it on Bitcoin,

781
01:04:06,206 --> 01:04:08,146
it would be even better.

782
01:04:08,546 --> 01:04:09,686
It would be a lot better.

783
01:04:10,106 --> 01:04:12,286
But yeah, cool.

784
01:04:12,286 --> 01:04:15,206
Well, look, that is all pretty exciting.

785
01:04:16,626 --> 01:04:19,286
It's like you position yourself as a Bitcoin Citadel company.

786
01:04:19,786 --> 01:04:23,186
But that's new because I know you've always been Bitcoin.

787
01:04:23,426 --> 01:04:26,826
That was kind of the title of our talk yesterday, which was Bitcoin Citadels.

788
01:04:27,026 --> 01:04:30,346
But treasury was a big part of it, I guess.

789
01:04:30,566 --> 01:04:34,046
No, but I mean, I've kind of watched the evolution in a way.

790
01:04:34,166 --> 01:04:37,206
I think it's fair to say, Patrick, you worked.

791
01:04:37,606 --> 01:04:38,326
You're working.

792
01:04:38,486 --> 01:04:41,126
You were kind of working this out out loud in many ways.

793
01:04:41,226 --> 01:04:41,566
Absolutely.

794
01:04:41,726 --> 01:04:45,706
You know, like you were building things and then you realized, hold a minute, I'm a libertarian.

795
01:04:45,706 --> 01:04:50,766
there's a lot of other people out there that actually are looking for this product i can give

796
01:04:50,766 --> 01:04:56,106
it to them you know well we got you know my wife and i were in belize on hamburgers quay

797
01:04:56,106 --> 01:05:02,026
basically an island when covid hit and you know you get island fever at the best of times you

798
01:05:02,026 --> 01:05:05,746
certainly get island fever when you're in lockdown and can't get groceries there and that sort of

799
01:05:05,746 --> 01:05:11,366
thing so that's where you know i give credit to andrea my wife is a lot of it was her saying we

800
01:05:11,366 --> 01:05:17,546
need to build one of these communities that is resilient to this kind of nonsense because she's

801
01:05:17,546 --> 01:05:22,466
a doctor and didn't take her very long to figure out that the rules that they were making for you

802
01:05:22,466 --> 01:05:25,826
know if you sat down in a restaurant you could take your mask off but if you stood up to go to

803
01:05:25,826 --> 01:05:30,786
the bathroom you had to put it on you know i think stadiums were full of people but the gyms were

804
01:05:30,786 --> 01:05:36,566
closed and all those ridiculous rules it's weird it's weird couldn't go to the beach you know

805
01:05:36,566 --> 01:05:39,966
viruses don't really like uv light or salt water but you couldn't go to the beach

806
01:05:39,966 --> 01:05:46,806
you know it's crazy anyway so when we decided this is nuts and we've got authoritarian governments

807
01:05:46,806 --> 01:05:50,966
controlling what we're doing with no logic to it like it would be nice if they were caring but this

808
01:05:50,966 --> 01:05:57,766
is nothing caring about this so then we said well let's actually formally not just build these

809
01:05:57,766 --> 01:06:01,666
communities that are kind of this way it's like these are the pillars of our thought and that's

810
01:06:01,666 --> 01:06:05,926
what they're going to be based on and they're going to be you know no wavering from that because

811
01:06:05,926 --> 01:06:10,686
there will be COVID 2.0. I mean, I say it all the time. I don't actually think the next one's

812
01:06:10,686 --> 01:06:14,146
going to be a virus. I think it's going to be climate change related. It's going to be like

813
01:06:14,146 --> 01:06:18,646
the sun spots are bad this year. You have to stay inside and we have to shut the economy down again.

814
01:06:18,646 --> 01:06:21,986
And I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to be something ridiculous again.

815
01:06:22,306 --> 01:06:28,046
So, so in our communities, it'll be like Nicaragua kind of was during COVID, which is you don't have

816
01:06:28,046 --> 01:06:33,266
to wear masks. You don't have to get vaccine vaccinated if you don't want to. If a business

817
01:06:33,266 --> 01:06:37,546
decides that they need to wear a mask to go in them, then that's the business's choice.

818
01:06:37,546 --> 01:06:39,966
But you can decide not to go to that business then.

819
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:42,924
So, you know, it was voting with their feet, people.

820
01:06:43,264 --> 01:06:49,424
But public goods were, so you can walk down the street, no one's business.

821
01:06:49,564 --> 01:06:51,744
Only when you enter private property, then it's pure.

822
01:06:51,944 --> 01:06:53,584
Then it's the private property's business.

823
01:06:53,684 --> 01:06:54,644
And I'm okay with that.

824
01:06:54,644 --> 01:06:59,444
Like, I mean, we want to be able to make our freedom-oriented rules inside of Veritas Villages.

825
01:06:59,544 --> 01:07:02,524
And if the guy next door wants to be a far leftist community, I don't care.

826
01:07:02,604 --> 01:07:03,384
You decide what you want.

827
01:07:03,444 --> 01:07:04,044
We're not going there.

828
01:07:04,324 --> 01:07:06,784
Do you have a contract like Prospera?

829
01:07:06,784 --> 01:07:12,304
Do you have a, you know, like about what the kind of rules and the rules, because you've got to have some rules.

830
01:07:12,444 --> 01:07:15,084
Yeah, no, we have an HOA rules and regulations.

831
01:07:15,384 --> 01:07:19,904
Very, that was another issue, you know, with the governments.

832
01:07:20,124 --> 01:07:23,064
I don't know why they care, but they do.

833
01:07:23,464 --> 01:07:33,624
You know, I created an HOA document for Veritas Villages, you know, take Panama, for example, and they wouldn't approve it.

834
01:07:33,624 --> 01:07:40,284
it's just like you you need to like even the little things like the the the HOA fee how it's

835
01:07:40,284 --> 01:07:46,404
determined for us it's there's a there's a formula because somebody can have a huge piece of property

836
01:07:46,404 --> 01:07:51,324
within our community and another person wants a small one with a tiny home on it and their

837
01:07:51,324 --> 01:07:57,664
HOA fee just can't be purely size of lot because you still have four people living in either case

838
01:07:57,664 --> 01:08:01,424
and it's how much of the amenities are they using and so there's got to be some sort of formula

839
01:08:01,424 --> 01:08:07,224
the government didn't allow that they basically they basically said no it's got to be pure square

840
01:08:07,224 --> 01:08:12,724
meter this is like it's 10 cents per square meter per month that that's your formula you decide if

841
01:08:12,724 --> 01:08:18,484
it's 10 cents or 12 or 14 but that's the formula i was like why do you care like you know but they

842
01:08:18,484 --> 01:08:26,484
do the nice thing about it though in panama is the day that they stamp your hoa um document you can

843
01:08:26,484 --> 01:08:32,744
change it to whatever you want so i mean at midnight that day is going to be totally different

844
01:08:32,744 --> 01:08:36,784
i was already trying to think of some workarounds there because you could just do that but then you

845
01:08:36,784 --> 01:08:43,064
could add a strange kind of not a tax but you know what i mean some fee that you have to pay on

846
01:08:43,064 --> 01:08:47,844
another like how many people are living in your property and then don't call it that yeah but you

847
01:08:47,844 --> 01:08:52,984
don't even need to know i mean there's always being you know brain straining creative ways to

848
01:08:52,984 --> 01:08:57,744
get around these things but there's this case they gave us the out so it's like all right here's the

849
01:08:57,744 --> 01:09:02,524
you know copy and paste of what you want and then tomorrow you can tomorrow it'll be different

850
01:09:02,524 --> 01:09:09,924
that's the government doing i think their i think their point is and i can only think of one and

851
01:09:09,924 --> 01:09:16,664
that's that they don't want the developer deciding ridiculous hoa regulations they want the people

852
01:09:16,664 --> 01:09:22,624
to which i'm in favor of so i as the developer autrus as the developer has to make the first one

853
01:09:22,624 --> 01:09:25,484
because it's the only entity that can for day one.

854
01:09:26,024 --> 01:09:27,224
And so they have rules for that.

855
01:09:27,604 --> 01:09:30,784
But day two, the people can decide to wipe out every clause in there

856
01:09:30,784 --> 01:09:33,284
and make a totally different one, which is exactly what will happen.

857
01:09:33,364 --> 01:09:36,104
We're already going to have document number two ready.

858
01:09:37,064 --> 01:09:40,204
I mean, it's just another nanny state effort.

859
01:09:40,204 --> 01:09:44,964
You get in many of the developed countries, you get this in a different way.

860
01:09:45,024 --> 01:09:48,424
But in Latin America, you get lots of wage restrictions

861
01:09:48,424 --> 01:09:50,264
and how many holidays you have to have.

862
01:09:50,344 --> 01:09:51,364
And it's the same sort of thing.

863
01:09:51,364 --> 01:09:55,264
we have to protect you to make sure that you, you know, get what is,

864
01:09:55,384 --> 01:09:56,224
what is right and fair.

865
01:09:56,264 --> 01:09:59,504
And if you make a wrong decision that might be better for your life,

866
01:09:59,504 --> 01:10:02,884
it's wrong because we think, uh, you know, we've decided it's not fair.

867
01:10:03,004 --> 01:10:04,484
Yeah. And you have to understand where they came from.

868
01:10:04,544 --> 01:10:06,644
Most of them were socialists 20 years ago. Right.

869
01:10:06,644 --> 01:10:10,384
And so that all these rules were created for the people, you know,

870
01:10:10,464 --> 01:10:15,544
and by, by the nanny. And so they're working their way out of them.

871
01:10:15,664 --> 01:10:19,064
And it's difficult because a lot of those departments that are completely

872
01:10:19,064 --> 01:10:20,764
useless have employ a lot of people.

873
01:10:20,764 --> 01:10:24,484
And so when you're, and what is the one thing a politician wants?

874
01:10:24,624 --> 01:10:27,104
He wants to get back into his job next time again, right?

875
01:10:27,124 --> 01:10:32,144
So if you start being like Millet and even Millet, I mean, he cut a bunch of departments

876
01:10:32,144 --> 01:10:35,564
and rehired all those people into the same or into the remaining department.

877
01:10:35,704 --> 01:10:38,644
So it didn't really help the government cost costs that much.

878
01:10:38,664 --> 01:10:39,764
It just shuffled the deck.

879
01:10:40,124 --> 01:10:44,304
But that guy that was speaking yesterday was getting nailed, wasn't he?

880
01:10:44,324 --> 01:10:45,724
About the central bank as well.

881
01:10:45,944 --> 01:10:46,904
Like, well, who is that?

882
01:10:46,904 --> 01:10:52,604
He is just so whoever's listening to this, one of the speakers yesterday, he worked with

883
01:10:52,604 --> 01:10:54,524
Malay and getting him into power.

884
01:10:54,644 --> 01:10:56,644
And he gave a speech at the conference yesterday.

885
01:10:56,644 --> 01:11:01,084
And most someone asked about what happened to that.

886
01:11:01,204 --> 01:11:02,104
You were going to ban the center.

887
01:11:02,164 --> 01:11:03,364
You were going to cancel the central bank.

888
01:11:03,424 --> 01:11:03,964
It's still there.

889
01:11:04,004 --> 01:11:05,004
And he gave an answer.

890
01:11:05,104 --> 01:11:07,044
And then the next question was, so what about this?

891
01:11:07,144 --> 01:11:09,264
I don't like I don't like your answer.

892
01:11:09,344 --> 01:11:12,764
Can you repeat it the way I want to hear it?

893
01:11:12,864 --> 01:11:13,724
Yeah, that was massive.

894
01:11:13,864 --> 01:11:14,844
I was like, yeah, hold a minute.

895
01:11:14,844 --> 01:11:17,024
Can you clarify that bit about the bank, please?

896
01:11:17,544 --> 01:11:18,784
Yeah, tough spot.

897
01:11:18,904 --> 01:11:20,144
The first question from Tidus.

898
01:11:21,164 --> 01:11:22,064
Unsatisfactory answer.

899
01:11:22,184 --> 01:11:23,104
Massimo follows it up.

900
01:11:23,104 --> 01:11:24,064
No, it's true, though.

901
01:11:24,384 --> 01:11:25,044
I mean, come on.

902
01:11:25,904 --> 01:11:33,844
I mean, look, you can't blame him for probably for entering this blob and not being able to move.

903
01:11:34,684 --> 01:11:35,864
It's the same thing Trump faces, right?

904
01:11:35,864 --> 01:11:36,244
Yeah, yeah.

905
01:11:36,384 --> 01:11:38,024
I think everyone does.

906
01:11:38,204 --> 01:11:43,784
I have no issue with anything that is the result of the political constraints that he's in.

907
01:11:43,784 --> 01:11:45,664
And I don't pretend to be an expert in any of that.

908
01:11:45,784 --> 01:11:55,624
But this concept of we're now changing the policies of the central bank so that, A, it's going to be used for the people and will never again be used against the people.

909
01:11:55,744 --> 01:11:57,184
I mean, this is complete nonsense.

910
01:11:57,764 --> 01:11:57,964
Yeah.

911
01:11:59,224 --> 01:12:04,184
We better talk about the future then or short to medium to long up to you.

912
01:12:04,284 --> 01:12:06,024
But you've obviously got a plan.

913
01:12:06,524 --> 01:12:07,404
This is a lot of new.

914
01:12:07,484 --> 01:12:09,484
You know, you're a Bitcoin Citadel company.

915
01:12:09,584 --> 01:12:11,404
I'm going to call you not a Bitcoin Treasury company.

916
01:12:12,004 --> 01:12:13,624
I think you're a Bitcoin Citadel company.

917
01:12:13,624 --> 01:12:15,364
I think it's a better moniker.

918
01:12:15,844 --> 01:12:16,544
Coined here.

919
01:12:17,104 --> 01:12:17,904
Free Cities podcast.

920
01:12:18,284 --> 01:12:19,484
No, but it's true, if you think about it.

921
01:12:19,704 --> 01:12:22,584
I don't know whether there are any Bitcoin Citadel companies, are there, really?

922
01:12:23,404 --> 01:12:23,744
Not that we're at.

923
01:12:23,744 --> 01:12:24,864
No, no, no, I don't think there are.

924
01:12:25,244 --> 01:12:26,524
I mean, we know about them, right?

925
01:12:26,824 --> 01:12:31,724
There's Bitcoiners doing stuff, but actually, I think, and I love this,

926
01:12:31,784 --> 01:12:33,224
and I think I've watched it evolve,

927
01:12:33,324 --> 01:12:38,424
but I think more and more the Bitcoin element is becoming part of the core idea.

928
01:12:38,564 --> 01:12:41,804
I mean, and I'm massively into all Bitcoin companies, you know,

929
01:12:41,804 --> 01:12:45,184
Like Bitcoin, we've got, even the podcast, we've got it on the balance sheet.

930
01:12:45,444 --> 01:12:50,364
You know, it's like, it's the 21st century way to run a business.

931
01:12:50,484 --> 01:12:51,584
You have to have a treasury.

932
01:12:52,064 --> 01:13:06,806
Well yesterday somebody was trying to convince me that Bitcoin is not the future and it going to collapse and all that You know there still a lot of people out there that believe that and even somebody at this conference which is surprising to me because I was talking about in Panama alone

933
01:13:07,346 --> 01:13:10,666
Now, El Salvador has gone 100%, in my opinion, the right direction

934
01:13:10,666 --> 01:13:13,966
and has struggled with it a bit, but now Bukele looks like a hero

935
01:13:13,966 --> 01:13:17,066
given the fact that Bitcoin's up whatever 10 times

936
01:13:17,066 --> 01:13:18,646
from when he started acquiring it.

937
01:13:19,466 --> 01:13:23,746
But even in Panama, I mean, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica,

938
01:13:23,826 --> 01:13:25,726
they were all laughing at El Salvador in the past.

939
01:13:25,846 --> 01:13:27,646
It's like, what? This guy is crazy.

940
01:13:28,206 --> 01:13:33,386
Now, I paid my taxes for my condo property taxes in Panama City with Bitcoin.

941
01:13:33,586 --> 01:13:34,746
They're allowed to do that now.

942
01:13:34,866 --> 01:13:35,206
Can you?

943
01:13:35,306 --> 01:13:35,466
Yeah.

944
01:13:35,946 --> 01:13:36,866
To the government?

945
01:13:36,966 --> 01:13:37,906
You can pay to the government?

946
01:13:37,906 --> 01:13:38,186
Yeah, pay to the government.

947
01:13:38,526 --> 01:13:40,866
The mayor of Panama City is...

948
01:13:40,866 --> 01:13:41,206
What's that?

949
01:13:41,286 --> 01:13:41,606
City government.

950
01:13:41,606 --> 01:13:42,466
City government, yes.

951
01:13:42,986 --> 01:13:44,626
The municipality of the city, basically.

952
01:13:45,106 --> 01:13:49,526
But a couple of years ago, Tower Bank, one of the banks...

953
01:13:49,526 --> 01:13:53,246
Panama's the financial center of pretty much Central America, Latin America.

954
01:13:53,246 --> 01:13:56,966
and there's hundreds probably of banks there.

955
01:13:57,886 --> 01:13:59,946
Tower Bank is the first one that came out and said,

956
01:14:00,046 --> 01:14:04,426
okay, you can have stable coin in your account.

957
01:14:04,706 --> 01:14:07,286
Basically, you can have a USDT account, I believe it was.

958
01:14:07,286 --> 01:14:09,086
And so I could literally,

959
01:14:09,206 --> 01:14:12,766
it suddenly had an on-ramp and off-ramp in a bank in Panama,

960
01:14:12,886 --> 01:14:13,386
which is cool.

961
01:14:13,446 --> 01:14:15,146
And all the other banks ostracized them.

962
01:14:15,806 --> 01:14:18,686
You can do ACH transfers within Panama

963
01:14:18,686 --> 01:14:21,906
and they all took Tower Bank off of their ACH transfers

964
01:14:21,906 --> 01:14:24,826
as punishment for this crypto-friendly bank.

965
01:14:25,566 --> 01:14:28,426
However, Tower Bank quickly got all the customers.

966
01:14:28,626 --> 01:14:30,166
I mean, every expat that was moving there

967
01:14:30,166 --> 01:14:31,686
was opening a Tower Bank account

968
01:14:31,686 --> 01:14:34,986
because suddenly they had this combined thing

969
01:14:34,986 --> 01:14:36,026
that they'd never had before.

970
01:14:36,726 --> 01:14:37,986
And just this last few months,

971
01:14:38,466 --> 01:14:40,546
Caja de Oros is another bank there,

972
01:14:40,606 --> 01:14:42,766
and they just became crypto-friendly.

973
01:14:43,326 --> 01:14:44,706
There's two or three other ones,

974
01:14:44,826 --> 01:14:47,366
so they realized they were just losing business

975
01:14:47,366 --> 01:14:49,106
by not allowing Bitcoin, right?

976
01:14:49,106 --> 01:14:51,806
And now Tower Bank has taken it one step further

977
01:14:51,806 --> 01:14:56,306
passes stable coins you actually get a qr code and you can transfer bitcoin directly into your

978
01:14:56,306 --> 01:15:01,206
u.s dollar account it converts and everything so it it's you know you can buy bitcoin with through

979
01:15:01,206 --> 01:15:06,606
it and so it's pretty cool i i can't believe that the local government are accepting it for

980
01:15:06,606 --> 01:15:12,126
the mayor of panama city is extremely progressive when i use progressive in a good way i'm like not

981
01:15:12,126 --> 01:15:18,066
not the way north americans think of progressive these days it's not woke it's like actually a

982
01:15:18,066 --> 01:15:24,686
forward-thinking guy. He's very Bitcoin friendly and, you know, doing things with, you know,

983
01:15:24,926 --> 01:15:31,046
putting money where his mouth is. Well, the other very interesting kind of relatively new kind of

984
01:15:31,046 --> 01:15:35,186
Bitcoin thing that's happening is using it as collateral, which you can see absolutely

985
01:15:35,186 --> 01:15:42,086
exploding at the moment. And people now talking very normal financier types talking about it as

986
01:15:42,086 --> 01:15:45,806
pristine collateral and stuff like that. And it's very easy to predict that in the future,

987
01:15:45,806 --> 01:15:52,206
this is going to be like one of the most massive elements of being a bitcoin holder which is why

988
01:15:52,206 --> 01:15:57,326
obviously everyone should be stacking a bit whether it's you your company your business whatever you

989
01:15:57,326 --> 01:16:01,486
know i think the banks and sorry that's i mean that's a big strategy for the bitcoin treasury

990
01:16:01,486 --> 01:16:06,206
company over the long term i think we're a little too early i mean we saw strategy got a credit

991
01:16:06,206 --> 01:16:13,806
rating uh and they effectively uh just simply subtracted out the bitcoin capital yeah in terms

992
01:16:13,806 --> 01:16:16,446
It was a bit disappointing. Was it B- or something?

993
01:16:16,446 --> 01:16:19,086
Triple B-, which was just about junk status.

994
01:16:21,726 --> 01:16:26,206
Look, I'm sure they have formalities, and this is why it happened the way that it did.

995
01:16:26,206 --> 01:16:31,326
But from any honest perspective, it's therefore an irrelevant rating,

996
01:16:31,886 --> 01:16:36,046
because it's not analyzing the nature of the company, which is that it has

997
01:16:36,046 --> 01:16:40,846
over 5% of the Bitcoin supply. And I think that in the future, if you're a company,

998
01:16:40,846 --> 01:16:48,126
this is the sort of thing as as bitcoin moves towards uh being accepted as pristine collateral

999
01:16:48,126 --> 01:16:52,746
which i'm not quite sure i would say it is at the moment because it is volatile otherwise it has all

1000
01:16:52,746 --> 01:16:58,466
the great qualities i think it's moving towards that as that happens you know if you have a company

1001
01:16:58,466 --> 01:17:03,486
that has bitcoin on your balance sheet you can immediately go out and get a loan like you know

1002
01:17:03,486 --> 01:17:08,746
snap of your fingers you don't even have to present business plans you don't even have to present uh

1003
01:17:08,746 --> 01:17:10,646
You know, credit ratings, any of this sort of stuff.

1004
01:17:10,706 --> 01:17:13,406
You just sign a, you know, show on chain.

1005
01:17:13,526 --> 01:17:19,506
Here I've got X Bitcoin and therefore I can get 50% of this in a loan or, you know, 25% of this in a loan.

1006
01:17:19,726 --> 01:17:20,206
No problem.

1007
01:17:20,546 --> 01:17:30,806
Well, and also two companies now are offering or are about to offer personal credit lines against Bitcoin collateral, which is incredible.

1008
01:17:31,506 --> 01:17:38,086
I mean, you can see that that's, you know, I was thinking it through the other night about what you could do with that.

1009
01:17:38,086 --> 01:17:43,686
So you have a credit line based on, say, 50% loan-to-value with your Bitcoin.

1010
01:17:44,526 --> 01:17:47,366
And so you can use it like a credit card.

1011
01:17:47,706 --> 01:17:48,386
You just spend a bit.

1012
01:17:48,466 --> 01:17:55,046
You don't want to basically, because most of the companies at the moment, they require you to borrow, you know, let's say 50 grand over the year.

1013
01:17:55,086 --> 01:17:56,306
You don't want to borrow 50 grand.

1014
01:17:56,366 --> 01:18:01,686
You want to borrow maybe 700 pounds to pay a bill or something or $700 or whatever.

1015
01:18:02,406 --> 01:18:03,106
It is amazing.

1016
01:18:03,106 --> 01:18:24,606
I mean, it's really, it's really so exciting to think that, especially if you've been stacking for a while, which, you know, it's like, it's so fortunate that, you know, we think how lucky everyone was who heard about it within the last sort of like six or five or six or seven years ago, you know, and suddenly, now all these opportunities that they're opening up and same with companies.

1017
01:18:24,606 --> 01:18:27,846
And I'm not saying it's too late by any stretch of the imagination.

1018
01:18:28,126 --> 01:18:28,486
It's not.

1019
01:18:29,086 --> 01:18:32,606
Get some on your balance sheet, especially if you're raising money.

1020
01:18:32,806 --> 01:18:33,966
Get it on your balance sheet.

1021
01:18:34,526 --> 01:18:39,086
I was talking to somebody about the butterfly effect in my life of Bitcoin.

1022
01:18:39,486 --> 01:18:46,066
So back in 2010 or 11, when Bitcoin was actually 50 cents, somebody told me about it.

1023
01:18:46,246 --> 01:18:47,346
He said, you're a technical guy.

1024
01:18:47,426 --> 01:18:47,826
You're in software.

1025
01:18:47,926 --> 01:18:48,886
You should buy a bunch of Bitcoin.

1026
01:18:49,046 --> 01:18:50,426
I was like, well, what is this stuff, right?

1027
01:18:50,426 --> 01:18:54,786
So I started looking at it and I went, yeah, I'm going to buy 1,000 Bitcoin for $500.

1028
01:18:55,566 --> 01:18:58,026
Today that would be $100 million or whatever.

1029
01:18:59,366 --> 01:19:01,046
But I was in Canada.

1030
01:19:01,126 --> 01:19:03,366
It was almost impossible to open a wallet at that point.

1031
01:19:03,446 --> 01:19:06,846
I called my buddy in the States to open a wallet.

1032
01:19:06,946 --> 01:19:08,366
I was going to say, look, I'll give you 500.

1033
01:19:08,486 --> 01:19:11,026
I'll keep 500 just to get this wallet because it's in the States.

1034
01:19:11,506 --> 01:19:13,966
He was away and didn't answer and I just didn't do it.

1035
01:19:14,366 --> 01:19:15,146
Oh, shit.

1036
01:19:15,146 --> 01:19:31,688
But then I think about Veritas Villages wouldn exist And you know who knows what would have been different Like I wouldn have the incentive to do that So you know I proud of what we doing now so I guess maybe in the long run that was a good thing and I have a little bit of Bitcoin now not a thousand of them unfortunately

1037
01:19:31,688 --> 01:19:35,388
Dude, I'm not sure not having a hundred million is a great thing.

1038
01:19:35,768 --> 01:19:43,168
But I mean, I appreciate what you say, you wouldn't be, you may not be doing what you do now, but who knows what you'd be doing with a hundred million as well.

1039
01:19:43,168 --> 01:19:46,348
I guess the truth is I could have funded a lot of different things along the way.

1040
01:19:46,348 --> 01:19:55,868
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, though. Like, you know, there is a curse to having to getting a large, vast amounts of money.

1041
01:19:56,008 --> 01:20:01,168
You know, I think about this a lot with my children because I have a plan for them and it's a Bitcoin plan.

1042
01:20:01,368 --> 01:20:09,668
And who knows actually what it might turn into? You know, your Bitcoin plan now might turn into an absolutely astronomical amount of money.

1043
01:20:09,668 --> 01:20:14,628
It depends what the timeline is in the future. And that could be damaging, you know.

1044
01:20:14,628 --> 01:20:20,968
So, you know, like locking it up, you know, putting sort of cryptographic stipulations on it and stuff like that.

1045
01:20:21,008 --> 01:20:24,208
They're all quite important things to actually think about, you know.

1046
01:20:24,808 --> 01:20:25,168
Yeah.

1047
01:20:25,288 --> 01:20:30,788
I mean, even now, I mean, I look at Autris and the market cap on Autris is a significant amount.

1048
01:20:31,348 --> 01:20:33,268
But I've always been with my three children.

1049
01:20:33,748 --> 01:20:35,128
You know, they didn't like it when they were younger.

1050
01:20:35,988 --> 01:20:39,728
You know, we did all right with selling a software company and lived in a nice house and everything.

1051
01:20:39,808 --> 01:20:40,988
But that's about where it stopped.

1052
01:20:40,988 --> 01:20:43,968
They had to get a job to buy their own car.

1053
01:20:44,208 --> 01:20:46,808
And while their friends, it was a bit of a nice neighborhood.

1054
01:20:46,948 --> 01:20:51,708
So their friends were getting BMWs at 16 years old as their 16th birthday gift.

1055
01:20:52,368 --> 01:20:53,408
And my kids were not.

1056
01:20:53,468 --> 01:20:59,928
My kids were working at McDonald's so they could buy a Honda Civic or something at 20 years old.

1057
01:21:00,368 --> 01:21:02,268
So they weren't happy about that.

1058
01:21:02,568 --> 01:21:03,488
But now they are.

1059
01:21:03,588 --> 01:21:08,368
And all three of them are capitalist people that are doing really well on their own.

1060
01:21:08,368 --> 01:21:11,728
And then, you know, it's the same thing you're saying with your kids.

1061
01:21:11,888 --> 01:21:17,448
Even if you have the ability to leave them a lot, I'm not sure that's a good thing without certain rules, at least.

1062
01:21:18,088 --> 01:21:21,868
You know, if all of a sudden you get millions of dollars dumped in your lap, it doesn't matter who you are.

1063
01:21:21,908 --> 01:21:23,888
It's probably not going to do great things for your life.

1064
01:21:23,888 --> 01:21:31,548
Well, the funny thing about Bitcoin is, is over the very long term, anything could happen, literally.

1065
01:21:31,548 --> 01:21:39,468
I mean, there is one timeline where it goes to an actual astronomical amount of money for one Bitcoin, doesn't it?

1066
01:21:39,528 --> 01:21:43,268
And it's not that unlikely, actually, when you look at it.

1067
01:21:43,968 --> 01:21:49,628
So if your kids, that means by the time they're 40 or 50, who knows?

1068
01:21:49,988 --> 01:21:55,088
They might have to have a family office just from something you add in a wallet on your phone.

1069
01:21:56,468 --> 01:21:59,188
Yeah, I mean, like some 11-year-old has right now.

1070
01:21:59,188 --> 01:22:07,268
Well, no, my daughter, my middle daughter, for a while she started, you know, I've always talked to them about Bitcoin.

1071
01:22:07,488 --> 01:22:12,248
And about four or five years ago, I really started trying to get them when they got to a certain age.

1072
01:22:12,588 --> 01:22:16,868
And she started taking her pocket money, which was two pounds a week.

1073
01:22:17,268 --> 01:22:18,688
She started taking it in Bitcoin.

1074
01:22:19,408 --> 01:22:28,288
She has amassed more than £2,000 worth of Bitcoin now at aged, well, by age nine, she had amassed more than £2,000 worth of Bitcoin.

1075
01:22:28,288 --> 01:22:30,568
She doesn't spend it on anything.

1076
01:22:31,068 --> 01:22:31,908
She's the middle child.

1077
01:22:32,028 --> 01:22:35,868
She kind of likes, money's the only thing she can really own.

1078
01:22:36,428 --> 01:22:36,908
Do you know what I mean?

1079
01:22:37,008 --> 01:22:41,248
Everything else she has to share or she gets given things and all this kind of stuff.

1080
01:22:41,788 --> 01:22:42,988
She has natural low time preference.

1081
01:22:43,148 --> 01:22:43,628
This is great.

1082
01:22:44,188 --> 01:22:44,948
Yeah, exactly.

1083
01:22:45,308 --> 01:22:49,048
But probably if she doesn't spend, I don't think she will.

1084
01:22:49,148 --> 01:22:50,108
I don't know whether she'll spend it.

1085
01:22:50,128 --> 01:22:51,088
She doesn't really want anything.

1086
01:22:51,188 --> 01:22:51,948
That's the funny thing.

1087
01:22:52,668 --> 01:22:55,508
Because now she started a business.

1088
01:22:55,508 --> 01:22:59,008
we've got chickens and she sells the eggs to us.

1089
01:22:59,248 --> 01:23:00,468
I said, look, I do you a deal.

1090
01:23:00,568 --> 01:23:00,988
For Bitcoin?

1091
01:23:01,368 --> 01:23:02,568
Yeah, of course.

1092
01:23:03,288 --> 01:23:06,808
You know, like, and she doesn't spend her money on anything.

1093
01:23:06,868 --> 01:23:08,828
And I say to her, look, don't hold your money.

1094
01:23:09,408 --> 01:23:12,548
You know, she likes having a few 20 pound notes and stuff in her safe or whatever.

1095
01:23:12,728 --> 01:23:14,788
In 10 years, she can come and work at Veritas Village.

1096
01:23:16,068 --> 01:23:16,428
Good.

1097
01:23:16,628 --> 01:23:17,748
She'd love that, I'm sure.

1098
01:23:18,108 --> 01:23:18,228
Right.

1099
01:23:19,208 --> 01:23:19,608
Future.

1100
01:23:20,028 --> 01:23:21,108
And what's happening now?

1101
01:23:21,408 --> 01:23:22,468
Like, are you raising money?

1102
01:23:22,608 --> 01:23:23,388
Are you doing what?

1103
01:23:23,388 --> 01:23:28,448
like this obviously the treasury strategy is there for a reason and stuff you know yeah maybe

1104
01:23:28,448 --> 01:23:34,208
i'll speak uh to the short term and then uh the longer vision let's hear from patrick um the short

1105
01:23:34,208 --> 01:23:40,628
term part of the uh acquisition of bitcorp and and uh you know consistent with all the press releases

1106
01:23:40,628 --> 01:23:47,788
that we've put out uh a part of that is a fundraise uh for uh for autris uh we're raising 30 million

1107
01:23:47,788 --> 01:24:00,848
The purpose of that is for three separate functions. One is currently Autris is trading on the OTC ID pink slip over the counter stock exchange.

1108
01:24:01,228 --> 01:24:11,408
We would like to uplist to an exchange that is somewhat easier to access for the normal people that would like to potentially buy some shares in Autris,

1109
01:24:11,408 --> 01:24:15,428
but find it very difficult in the current exchange,

1110
01:24:15,828 --> 01:24:18,648
increase the volumes and liquidity and that sort of thing

1111
01:24:18,648 --> 01:24:22,828
so that the common person could easily get in or get out as they like.

1112
01:24:23,408 --> 01:24:24,368
That's the first step.

1113
01:24:25,428 --> 01:24:30,648
The second step is actually to just purchase quite a volume of Bitcoin,

1114
01:24:31,188 --> 01:24:33,788
really start growing the balance sheet and have it there

1115
01:24:33,788 --> 01:24:39,188
for what is our long-term view will be worth substantially more

1116
01:24:39,188 --> 01:24:44,788
over the, you know, call it 10, 20 year time horizon. And then the third aspect of it is to

1117
01:24:44,788 --> 01:24:52,048
help Autrist expand its current business. They are able to execute on all the strategies they have

1118
01:24:52,048 --> 01:24:59,248
with relatively, you know, lean operations and a relatively tight balance sheet.

1119
01:25:00,008 --> 01:25:05,108
But that requires extra discipline. It requires, you know, being very rigorous about

1120
01:25:05,108 --> 01:25:11,208
which purchase of land on what timeline, what are the sort of contingencies related to it.

1121
01:25:11,568 --> 01:25:17,348
Having a bit more capital available lets the operation expand and potentially into do multiple

1122
01:25:17,348 --> 01:25:23,228
new expansion countries at one time is something that would be very nice. So that's sort of the,

1123
01:25:23,228 --> 01:25:29,948
I don't know, call it the six to 18 month time horizon, you know, working on these three things.

1124
01:25:29,948 --> 01:25:34,808
As far as a longer term goal, I mean, Alex touched on it with his third point.

1125
01:25:34,988 --> 01:25:37,528
We have been organically growing.

1126
01:25:37,748 --> 01:25:52,850
We take profits from one of the communities and bury it into building infrastructure and buying more land and so on But we obviously I mean it a hugely nice problem to have but we have more demand than we have inventory for most of the time

1127
01:25:52,930 --> 01:25:54,070
And the demand is growing.

1128
01:25:54,070 --> 01:26:00,790
I wasn't sure, to be honest, after, you know, call it the panic of COVID sort of started slowing down.

1129
01:26:01,070 --> 01:26:03,070
And it has actually increased.

1130
01:26:03,070 --> 01:26:07,230
I think people are getting another sense again that, you know, there's enough.

1131
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:18,450
Well, I mean, you can look at the UK and, you know, the flight of, I think TIDIS's first opening presentation at the conference was on the millionaires leaving places, right?

1132
01:26:18,550 --> 01:26:22,450
And, you know, fortunately, we're one of the places they're looking at to go to.

1133
01:26:22,990 --> 01:26:29,630
And, you know, we're pretty much in zero tax dollar regions and locations.

1134
01:26:29,630 --> 01:26:34,190
So that's nice for a lot of people that are just getting beat up by their authoritarian governments.

1135
01:26:34,850 --> 01:26:37,710
So I would like to expand faster.

1136
01:26:38,110 --> 01:26:47,110
And, you know, we'd like to have the property in Argentina, like to have a property in Mexico, Ecuador, and then beyond Latin America as well.

1137
01:26:47,210 --> 01:26:49,990
I mean, we focus on Latin America right now.

1138
01:26:51,370 --> 01:26:54,630
Some of the main reasons are it's kind of a live and let live area.

1139
01:26:55,450 --> 01:26:58,890
You've been, you know, I think you've lived in Salvador for a little while or in Mexico.

1140
01:26:58,890 --> 01:27:03,490
so you know what it's like it's a very nobody's going to bother you about anything right so that's

1141
01:27:03,490 --> 01:27:07,350
kind of the that's kind of the foundation to have where to build a community like that but there's

1142
01:27:07,350 --> 01:27:14,150
other places in you know in in asia and things like that with the same kind of thoughts and and

1143
01:27:14,150 --> 01:27:20,310
so that and and other places i was you know not that i want to have a community in kazakhstan but

1144
01:27:20,310 --> 01:27:24,670
i was just in kazakhstan and i was pleasantly surprised that it was a as a nice place and

1145
01:27:24,670 --> 01:27:32,270
and kyrgyzstan uh bishkek and el mati and it was a little tangent here but in canada at least i

1146
01:27:32,270 --> 01:27:36,670
don't know what it was like growing up in the uk or or the u.s but in canada we're all we were

1147
01:27:36,670 --> 01:27:40,070
always taught that we were just like the best place on earth right and everything else is lesser

1148
01:27:40,070 --> 01:27:46,030
like it not not in an arrogant way of friendly people and things but just like a quiet pride

1149
01:27:46,030 --> 01:27:50,770
you know we're the little brother to the north of the u.s but really we're like kind of the u.s but

1150
01:27:50,770 --> 01:27:55,850
better that's what that's what they think right and then you're taught things like you know

1151
01:27:55,850 --> 01:28:03,710
central asia is just a shithole basically and and then when i i would encourage people to go to all

1152
01:28:03,710 --> 01:28:08,310
sorts of places like you know every time i do that i realize you know everything i was told was not

1153
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:13,910
even close to right right i mean when i first went to nicaragua with my children the friends

1154
01:28:13,910 --> 01:28:17,650
in canada all panicked and thought you're all going to get kidnapped and it's like it's actually

1155
01:28:17,650 --> 01:28:25,950
safer than Canada in a lot of ways. So, um, yeah, so anyway, the expansion for the, of the communities

1156
01:28:25,950 --> 01:28:31,630
of Maritas villages, I'd like to do faster. I don't want to do it at a pace where we, you know,

1157
01:28:31,630 --> 01:28:36,270
lose the philosophy of what we're, what we're all about, but there is a demand for it. And I feel

1158
01:28:36,270 --> 01:28:43,070
like, you know, my purpose, you know, in life right now is to, to create these oases for people.

1159
01:28:43,070 --> 01:28:52,190
And it was originally just, it came up with my wife and I talking about it as Oasis for us and our friends and family if there was going to be a next COVID.

1160
01:28:52,390 --> 01:28:54,630
But that's expanded a lot since then.

1161
01:28:56,190 --> 01:28:56,630
Great.

1162
01:28:56,790 --> 01:28:57,470
Sounds great.

1163
01:28:58,090 --> 01:29:04,650
Not financial advice, but one might predict that Altra shares are undervalued, potentially.

1164
01:29:05,530 --> 01:29:10,130
I'm not really allowed to say where I think it's going, but I'm not going to argue with you on that.

1165
01:29:10,130 --> 01:29:13,350
No, I was just thinking it through as you were speaking.

1166
01:29:13,710 --> 01:29:15,590
And yeah, there you go.

1167
01:29:15,970 --> 01:29:19,790
Right, guys, very much interesting and exciting.

1168
01:29:20,050 --> 01:29:20,890
And thanks for coming in.

1169
01:29:21,190 --> 01:29:23,530
And good luck with everything, of course.

1170
01:29:23,650 --> 01:29:24,970
I'm a big fan.

1171
01:29:25,050 --> 01:29:29,670
I've watched the progress over since the first time I met you.

1172
01:29:29,730 --> 01:29:32,350
And I just think it's a kick-ass idea.

1173
01:29:32,350 --> 01:29:36,990
What I like about it the most is that it's a brilliant idea.

1174
01:29:36,990 --> 01:29:40,430
and it arose out of the market demand,

1175
01:29:40,950 --> 01:29:43,410
which is, that's how you start a business.

1176
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:45,210
That's how you should start a business.

1177
01:29:45,490 --> 01:29:47,770
Yeah, I'm surprised there hasn't been more.

1178
01:29:47,970 --> 01:29:48,550
Yeah, me too.

1179
01:29:48,550 --> 01:29:49,590
We don't really have a lot of competition.

1180
01:29:49,810 --> 01:29:51,890
We have two or three copycats

1181
01:29:51,890 --> 01:29:54,310
and even the Dow idea for the HOA,

1182
01:29:54,670 --> 01:29:57,070
I noticed other companies doing that now

1183
01:29:57,070 --> 01:29:59,450
and I guess that's the best form of, you know.

1184
01:29:59,850 --> 01:30:01,670
Are the other companies libertarians?

1185
01:30:02,450 --> 01:30:03,570
Some of them, I would say,

1186
01:30:03,670 --> 01:30:06,330
but the one that I'm thinking,

1187
01:30:06,330 --> 01:30:11,670
I won't mention any names one that's just copies us like every time we put out a press release or do some kind of marketing

1188
01:30:11,670 --> 01:30:18,130
It's a mirror and to look into what they do. The thing is that they're they're not libertarian

1189
01:30:18,130 --> 01:30:25,570
They're not they don't really believe in the philosophy of the freedom and self-sustainability and and all that sort of stuff and and so

1190
01:30:25,570 --> 01:30:28,590
customers see through that pretty quickly. So they

1191
01:30:28,590 --> 01:30:33,790
And you know, no, but the community is a massive part of your thing anyway, isn't it?

1192
01:30:33,790 --> 01:30:40,090
you've got a community i i don't think that these things would even necessarily work without a

1193
01:30:40,090 --> 01:30:46,250
community because um the especially when you're making a network of places which kind of have

1194
01:30:46,250 --> 01:30:51,730
benefits that's the whole point of them really you know amongst the amongst other things it's like

1195
01:30:51,730 --> 01:30:57,210
that there's a community involved in it and um you can't fake the community and in fact in the

1196
01:30:57,210 --> 01:31:02,090
ones that don't have the community it's they're going to be like holiday home places aren't they

1197
01:31:02,090 --> 01:31:04,730
that just end up being, I don't know,

1198
01:31:04,830 --> 01:31:07,150
they end up being ghost towns a little bit sometimes.

1199
01:31:07,610 --> 01:31:09,230
And the best thing about our communities

1200
01:31:09,230 --> 01:31:12,010
is having a glass of wine, watching the sunset,

1201
01:31:12,230 --> 01:31:13,490
and all the people that you can talk to,

1202
01:31:13,530 --> 01:31:14,670
and you're not censored.

1203
01:31:14,730 --> 01:31:16,710
You don't have to feel worried about what you're going to say.

1204
01:31:16,710 --> 01:31:19,630
I don't want just people to think like me around me,

1205
01:31:20,110 --> 01:31:23,050
but I'd rather not hang out with radical leftists,

1206
01:31:23,310 --> 01:31:25,410
so rather not.

1207
01:31:27,250 --> 01:31:28,170
Great, all right.

1208
01:31:28,270 --> 01:31:30,010
Well, thanks, Alex and Patrick.

1209
01:31:30,750 --> 01:31:31,950
It's nice to see you again.

1210
01:31:32,090 --> 01:31:34,210
And thanks for coming in.

1211
01:31:34,610 --> 01:31:35,030
Thanks, Tim.

1212
01:31:35,270 --> 01:31:40,230
Always good to be on your podcast and appreciate you being on mine a few months ago, I think.

1213
01:31:40,270 --> 01:31:41,610
We'll have to do another version of that, too.

1214
01:31:41,690 --> 01:31:42,930
Whenever you're ready, mate.

1215
01:31:43,130 --> 01:31:43,710
I'm there.

1216
01:31:43,790 --> 01:31:44,810
I enjoy talking to you.

1217
01:31:44,990 --> 01:31:45,290
All right.

1218
01:31:45,290 --> 01:31:45,730
Thank you.

1219
01:32:02,090 --> 01:32:32,070
Thank you.